Theology in the Raw - 766: #766 - The Cultural and Moral Significance of Joker

Episode Date: November 19, 2019

Preston was speaking at University of Northwestern in Minneapolis and in between talks he and his good friend, Luke Thompson, went out to see the movie The Joker. That evening, Preston and Luke went out to a local pub and talked about the cultural and moral significance of the movie. It is--in Preston and Luke’s opinion--one of the most culturally and morally significant movies in the last decade. Listen to find out why. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

🎵 okay so this is uh preston with my good friend luke thompson uh we are in minneapolis are we in minneapolis or st paul this is is Minneapolis. We're still in Minneapolis. And Luke and I, I'm out here on a speaking engagement at University of Northwestern. Gave a few talks, but then in between talks, Luke and I went out to go see the Joker. And I think it was a couple weeks ago, you told me that, no, three weeks ago when The Joker first came out, did you say it was one of the most morally significant movies? You didn't say morally significant. I didn't say morally. What was your phrase?

How would you describe The Joker? Because you said it's one of the best movies you've ever seen. Yeah, well, definitely in recent memory. It's one of the most culturally significant movies. Culturally significant? Yeah, that's come out in a while, and really high-quality art. I think that it's, and I mean, movies that are significant don't always get, I mean, they don't always get

a lot of public recognition or do well at the box office, but this one has. This one has. And so I think that's... I think this is one of those rare times when those things overlap. Like, the success of it is significant,

I think, in evidencing that there's something deeper being tapped into. We should tell people where we're at. We are sitting at, what's the name of this place? Well, I was just trying, so like this is the Red Stag Supper Club. The Red, what? Red Stag Supper Club.

Red Stag Supper Club. So we're basically at a bar. Are we in downtown? No, where are we? It's right, so it's Lower Northeast Minneapolis. Okay. I live in Northeast. So we are kind of the only people who are actually sitting at the bar.

So if you're a teetotaler, this might be triggering. Because I'm drinking an IPA. What are you drinking? You're drinking like a sour or something. It's non-alcoholic for sure. Yeah, okay. Non-alcoholic sour beer. Well played.

So that's what we're doing. We're going to have a conversation about the Joker. And we are in a place. there's some background music and stuff so hopefully they won't be too obnoxious but we just thought it'd be cool to go out and um have a kind of debrief on the movie and just hit record and release it on the elgin raw so um why don't you start luke i mean what um if you say it's one of the most culturally significant movies you've seen in a long time, give us the 30,000. Oh, wait, should we give a spoiler alert?

Because I think we have to talk about scenes. Yeah, I mean, we'll probably talk about things that are going to be a spoiler to some extent. Right, so if you haven't seen the movie and you don't want to be spoiled, then, yeah, maybe you shouldn't listen to this episode. Because I would like to see a few scenes that I would love to talk about because I do think they are culturally and morally significant. So, yeah, with those caveats in view, yeah. Where do you want to start, man?

What is it that the main thing, how could you summarize, for somebody who doesn't have a clue about the Joker, the moral significance, the cultural significance? Like what, what is it? assume that it's a typical superhero movie, that it's kind of right in line with a lot of the Marvel movies that have come out. But this is, I don't know, I'm not a super comic book nerd, so I think this is technically DC that did it. I don't know. I think so. But it's not like the typical, so the way I'd maybe cage it is Martin Scorsese recently said, um, he made some comments that we were talking about earlier about, uh, theme park movies, movies that are just, um, they're more like going to an amusement park and they're

there for your almost kind of just sheer entertainment without much else. So it's like going to a carnival. You go there, you eat some cotton candy, you play some games, you ride some rides, you maybe throw up, you eat a bunch of bad food. You go home. It's just a period of going out, forgetting your life, fasting, just kind of almost crass amusement. And I don't mean crass in a negative way, but just base, simple amusement.

The Joker isn't really that at all. It's a little bit of a... I wouldn't... It's not that it's unentertaining, that it's ungripping. It definitely captures you and draws you in, but it's not a... I wouldn't say that it's a pleasurable or an easy viewing experience.

I mean, it's a disturbing movie on several levels. Yeah. Sometimes in just a disturbing way and sometimes in a really good way, like interrupts your expectations or your categories. Yeah. Well, and I think what's so, it's, um, what's hard about the character is, um, so there's a few, there's a few videos and commentaries that I've watched on it that have brought up really good points. And one of them that I watched was saying that you, um,

cause one of the criticisms was that the movie doesn't really, it doesn't really relate to a lot of the other i mean there's connection points to the joker story obviously but a lot of it is just a character story of a guy and you could have made any art house movie about a character story of this guy without necessarily having the joker title into it to draw you in but i think one of the brilliant things that that did was is that if you're going to a movie, expecting kind of simple escapism, it draws you into something that's a lot deeper and a lot more complex and a lot more difficult.

It's the kind of movie that's, that you're going to, you're going to have to think about and process through some of the stuff that you've watched. So I, I mean, we talked about this before, but just the, how it doesn't fit any kind of idea or propaganda box. Like, you know, I even asked, like, what is, I think I even asked you when you saw it, I didn't see it yet. Like, well, what's the message?

Like, what is it trying to promote? And you said there is no singular message. It can't be stuffed in a certain kind of ideological or propaganda box. It interrupts these neat and nice categories of good and evil.

You have good people, you have bad people. Maybe good people have some flaws, maybe bad people have some flaws, but they're still distinctly good and evil.

But with the Joker in particular, I mean, how he was caring for his mother struck me. Even the girl that he loves. And it's a little ambiguous what he ends up... Yeah. Well, I mean, I think... Do you think he killed her i mean uh well and that's part i think it's somewhat left of an interpretation because they don't show you explicitly but if i were to guess just in my subjective takeaway from it i would say that he yeah probably did yeah um

i think what's yeah it's it's a realistic i mean it almost reminds me of kind of like the uh and this has come up in a lot of circles that i travel in but the alexander solzhenitsyn Yeah, it's a realistic, I mean, it almost reminds me of kind of like the, and this has come up in a lot of circles that I travel in, but the Alexander Solzhenitsyn quote of like the line of good and evil runs down the middle of every man. And that's because it's real, is we all have good things and bad things about all of us. And so I think that's where the Joker's relatable. That he is not completely good or evil. I mean, obviously he's on the evil side.

He's just a relatable person, and I think that's what makes him... I think that's one of the most interesting things about the movie, is clearly he's a bad guy and signifies and exemplifies something pretty terrible in the end. But yet, if you can't relate to him through the course of the movie, I find that would be a strange thing. That was one of the most striking things to me about the movie, is particularly the bus scene.

And this isn't even a spoiler, because it's in a lot of the previews and trailers. When he's playing with that little boy in the bus. Yeah, such a good scene. And then the mom turns around and chastises him, and he tries to defend himself, and she yells at him again, and then he just... What I feel like the movie does a good job of doing is it shows that there are all these...

There's just a multitude of bridging opportunities to reach out to this guy that is extremely isolated, extremely... opportunities to reach out to this guy that is extremely isolated extremely he has an extreme lack of connection and relationship with other people and and he's just constantly stifled in those interactions all the time you know like he's interacting with this little boy in a way that we've talked about just kind of like that youthful innocence that children have when they go to a park you know when they're five and they just make a best friend. You love him. Like, in that scene, you're like, what a cool, like, what a beautiful human being.

Yeah. Because he's playing with a little kid, which is beautiful. And then his mother just jumps. It's just, it's a cold, it's a cold, hard environment that just makes your heart break for him, and then he immediately goes into his psychological disorder, laughter, which is the external laughter, but when you're crying inside. Everything inside is sad and hurt and broken, but it externalizes in laughter. Do you think, I mean, I saw, at least early on,

it seemed like he was trying to show how there are societal and relational injustices that form an evil person. So that the evil manifestation is, you know, I often use the analogy of the tip of the iceberg, you know. But there's loads of things lying beneath the surface of that tip of the iceberg. Oftentimes we see the tip and we're like oh a bad person evil person whatever but we don't take into account the extensive complex narrative that is fed into that um it seems like that's what they're trying to go after right they're just trying to show that you don't just wake up one day and you're the evil joker with no heart, you're killing innocently. You were actually a blend of good and evil, and evil creates evil.

In evil society, and not evil might be too strong, because there's just some subtle dehumanizing things that he experiences, but they just kind of start adding up. Well, there's a slow. I think in the movie there's almost a slow progression of Bill that shows his. Because one of the things that I noticed on this last watch, I've seen it multiple times, was his. How his imagination. Because the movie goes back and forth between. You don't really know necessarily what is reality and what's not

reality in his, in, in his conceptions of it. And there's a few different things that they portray as at least you, you are, you could think is a real to begin with. And then later you find we're probably just hallucinations or imagination. Like when he, when he's watching, watching, what's the guy's name? Murray. Murray, yeah, Murray Franklin. He's watching the show, and then all of a sudden he's in the audience,

and he brings him down, and he connects with him, and he's like, oh, you're the son I never had, and I would have loved to have had. And that's all just in his imagination. Yeah, I got to rethink that, because I didn't catch that until the very end. And then it just shows back, yeah, and he's just watching it on that evening show. imagination okay we think that because i i didn't i didn't catch that till the end and then and then it just shows back yeah and he's just watching it on on that evening show but it's just like his whole point was to bring joy so there's all these things early he's he's looking to stand up

comedy to bring joy to people and like so he he has all these things that are tethering him still to i mean and this is the hard thing that's hard about it like tethering him to sanity or tethering him to the continual game of of holding on to this reality that I mean whether or not that's sanity or whether that's

not just this reality that's full of a bunch of and this is where all the masks come in because I think that's a lot of what the Joker is playing on is the Joker has on this face paint, he's a clown. He's wearing masks. As the chaos ensues and increases, more and more people are wearing masks. But I think one of the artistic things that's happening there is that all of us are wearing masks. That's a lot of what the Joker is.

Oh, really? That's like an intentional point? I think a lot of what the Joker is about is he's was that's like oh yeah i think a lot of what the joker is about is he's saying that like we're all wearing these masks all the time and we don't really care about people and and we're putting forth these images because that was a lot of at the end with murray franklin was a lot of the the debate is he's saying you're you know you're you think that you're this good guy but but you're not this good guy. You brought me on to do all these things. And I think that's where it gets into commentary on social media and the current culture that we have and the news cycle.

It's a lot of projection and constant news, but that's an angle in this last watch that i really saw is i almost saw the joker and his his fully embracing what the joker was as like uh as almost like a way of saying i'm not gonna i'm not gonna pretend anymore i'm just gonna let the mask be real like in that when he in that towards the end when he ended up shooting murray like that whole yeah i mean that's where he's fully i mean i think where you almost see him where you see him there's there's all these steps where he's progressing towards that so like he and this is the full-on spoiler alerts but like where he's um i think it starts when he shoots

the guys on the bus or on the train. Yeah, there's definitely a turning point. And then it slowly progresses to him potentially killing the woman on the floor that he lives with. And then eventually like he finds out all the history with his mother and he kills his mother that was a moving scene when he when they when they were going back about the psychiatrist telling his mom that you let your boyfriend beat your son or torture your son or whatever yeah he's kind of reading that i mean i was getting i'm not a crier i was getting choked up i was like gosh, gosh, what a... And again, I feel like the movie throughout, it keeps tugging on your emotions of like, you hate the guy, you're scared of the guy.

Then you're like, you like the guy, and then you are the guy. That's where I felt like, we were just talking before we hit record, is like all throughout there were little sparks where I just felt like I was the Joker. I felt like there was a Joker in me, like this just laughing crying

balled up in the one the the joys of life the the difficulty of life and sometimes you wonder am I just wearing a mask and doing you know it's just I don't know it was I just felt uneasy during the whole thing in a really good way like in a in a disturbing yet helpful way yeah um but you mentioned so you mentioned social media that's something that and maybe it's because i've been so like in tune with outrage culture and social media i got something i've really been paying attention to and i felt like there was a message there you even you know that scene where okay i mean we've already done so many spoilers you know when he when he shoots murray and then the television is capturing this and like you're can you imagine

shooting like you know um steven colbert on life you know like oh my gosh this is a dramatic violent horrific scene and then it backs up and you see all these like you know tvs that they're just portraying all this different information and it's just one of the many this is one of the many it's one of the many things and most of the other things are just trivial things in life that we're just kind of yawning now so this is a really good so i was i mean i've sent you some of this stuff and you've uh so you haven't ever had paul on your channel paul vanderclay i've had paul on yeah did you have paul And you were on his show.

No, I'm supposed to be on his show. I just haven't. Oh, you had him on yours. So he said in his, he was talking with, and I can't remember which conversation this was. He's had multiple conversations. So, and I don't know if you can put this in the notes or whatever, but he had this guy, Burn Power, who he had a conversation with about the Joker. Burn has put some videos about the Joker and about the history of clowns, which are phenomenal. Oh, you told me about that.

I didn't read it. Which are phenomenal if you want to check it out. But Paul brought up this point, to your point, about the news thing and the pulling up and all the screens. And I think this is directly related, but you've seen the Truman story, right? I haven't now. You haven't? No, I know. I'm so sorry. Okay like, you've seen the Truman story, right? I haven't, no. You haven't? No, I know. I'm so sorry.

Okay, the Truman Show. The Truman Show, yeah. So, like, well, this will be a spoiler for you for the Truman Show. Yeah. So, like... I don't mind watching movies when I know it's... When you know what's going to happen. I know, yeah.

I don't know. So, do you understand the premise of the Truman Show? Kind of like a fake society or something. Yeah, so this kid was born into a show, and this is before there was even a lot of, what's it called? The real... Reality shows? Reality shows, right. So then Truman is this kid who's born into a reality show and doesn't know it.

His whole life is false. Everyone in his life are actors. There's cameras everywhere. And he grows up his whole life to like a full-grown Jim Carrey. And he's living in this reality show, doesn't know it. Oh, wow. And eventually what the show's about is he starts to realize all this and the world starts falling apart and breaking apart

and he's trying to get out. And then the culminating scene of the whole show it's brilliant i mean it's a wonderful show it's one of jim perry's best is he's finally they they've kind of um ingrained in him this fear of the sea and so he lives on this island he's surrounded by water and then he finally tries to leave he's trying to get out of there so he has to get on a ship to do this and they create a big storm because everything's trying to turn him back there, so he has to get on a ship to do this. And they create a big storm, because everything's trying to turn him back to get him back to the show

without leaving and breaking the whole thing down. It's kind of like The Village. A little bit, yeah. It's a disturbing thing, but eventually he breaks, and he pushes through, and he almost, they almost die, they're almost going to kill him, and he pushes through and gets in the boat, and they stop it, because they realize they're going to kill him.

Like, he's gotten to that far where, like, he's either going to find the truth or die. And he hits, like, the edge of this dome that he's been living in his whole life. Wow. And he climbs out of the boat, finds these stairs, and, like, finds the door to get out of the whole thing. And as he's leaving, he says, like, his kind of catchphrase for the whole show, which is what he said every night, like, when they when they cap the show and he'd go to sleep.

He's like, see ya, and if I don't see ya again, good afternoon, good evening, good night. And he bows and he leaves the stage, essentially. Walks out of the Truman Show, has realized what it all is, and he walks out of it. And then the last scene in the whole movie, like the real movie, which isn't just about the show,

the Truman Show, which is what it's about, is these guys, it shows all these people watching him because they're so invested in his life. So there are these guys who are working at, like, a security gate watching him or something as they're doing the security job. And Truman walks out, and everybody's freaking out, and it's this huge deal.

And he walks out, and the last scene of the whole movie is okay what else is on oh wow and like that's and like that's what that's the same feeling I had when it zoomed out and it's all the screens so what is that just the

is it the there's so much going on and because we have access to be aware of so much going on that it naturally just pacify placates your it's just like you kind of like if you have too much access to everything going on it ends up just feeding just i think a lackadaisical kind of lackadaisical approach to stuff? Or is there something else? I would almost say we live in a culture, and I don't know that the movie maker,

this is my opinion and what I took away from it, I think it's that we live in a culture that's so oversaturated with content and information. Okay. And this is a repeated theme throughout the movie, that you almost are numb to it. You're numb to any real meaning. We kind of talked about this earlier. It's like what the Internet has done, or TV or social media has done,

is it's given you so much content and so much information that i was talking to you earlier about signal to noise ratios that like you you have so much noise essentially so many points of information and facts this is a whole culture of all like even alternate facts like what is true and the news media and spin there's so much information that people we no longer have we no longer have anything to give us meaning out of that because it's just facts upon facts upon facts what gives you meaning out of endless information and it's and it's and it's the same way i think with like the truman story or the joker like when they're zooming out and showing all the screens is like we we live in a culture where we think we care about all this stuff,

but we don't really. And that's with on social media or news or you hear about some tragedy over there and it's really easy to quickly emotionally attach feelings to that as if you care, but you don't embody anything and actually do anything about it you're not living in a way that's any way connected to that reality

do you think the Joker is intentionally trying to poke at that a bit, just that oversaturation with information with justice issues with this, that, and at the end of the day the best you can do is kind of tweet some nasty response to some racist person and then go about your day and watch another i mean i think you could take that as like as as a takeaway from

the movie i don't know that they're because because again i don't think the movie is trying to be propaganda and trying to tell you any specific simple one thing. I think that it's so, it's so wide and brilliantly done that like you could watch it and take that away from it because there's so much multitude of meaning in it. I almost, I was thinking about this earlier. The Joker to me is almost, and I'm not equating in the two, but it's like, it's, it's something like the Bible or the gospel. And you want to just be like, well, what's the Bible about?

It's about a lot. It's about like the Bible or the gospel, and you want to just be like, well, what's the Bible about? It's about a lot. It's about a whole bunch. And if you want to simplify and distill it down to something, well, like, it's got a, and I never know how to say this word, but like a polysemy of meaning. Like, it's got a, there's a whole bunch in it. Like it's got a, there's a whole bunch in it. And I think you could take away that critique from social media within there, but definitely explicitly within there is a, is a, a repeated theme throughout it is that no one is listening to each other. Yeah.

We don't understand each other. There's too much noise. There's too much noise. And, and people are... Something that I took away from it is there's not a depth of relationship and meaning and context because there's just...

It's the madness of the crowds too, right? There's nothing deep holding everything together, which is what leads to the chaos. Yeah. And the whole theme of the rich and the poor, holding everything together, which is what leads to the chaos. Yeah. And the whole theme of like the rich and the poor, sorry, I mean, not even rich and poor, but just the people in power and the people that don't have power.

So you have kind of this, you know, neo-Marxist theme of the working class kind of overthrowing the rich. Yeah. And what I found kind of of i don't want to say i mean brilliant might be too strong but i love the fact that they they didn't have neat and nice categories there like you didn't like the rich like is it thomas wayne is that yeah you didn't really like he's kind of jerk he's not that bad he doesn't deserve to be killed but i mean you know he's kind of a jerk you know know, in the bathroom, punches him and everything.

But at the same time, when the proletariat, is that how you say it? When they start overthrowing and rioting and overthrowing the rich, you're like, well, that's terrible. So there is no... It's almost like if anybody that has

power is going to abuse that power is it's going to lead to evil and chaos and there there is no like there is no group no political identity um that is good like any kind of groupish thing is going to lead to chaos and an abuse of power. Again, I don't know if that's just me taking away, if that's something they're trying to communicate, that you can't. It's not the rich are good and the poor are bad, or the poor are good and the rich are bad. We're all messed up. And when we gather together in masses, that compounds the chaos. Yeah.

One of the scenes that really stuck out to me in the last couple times that I watched it was when they're kind of when he is fully when he's fully realized Joker and he's become that character and he's kind of planning

some of his final things and he's dancing. Because when he's dancing down those stairs, like he's dancing because when he's dancing down those stairs he's fully embodied the spirit of Joker and chaos and the police are kind of chasing after him because they're after him

for the subway murders and they go and chase him on the subway, on the bus and he is chasing him but at that point, everything has started to erode to the point where the clowns and things are starting to do their street protesting and stuff like that, and so he's going through in the bus, and the cops are coming in to come after him. But, like, it's reached a point.

The whole society has reached a point. There's garbage in the street. There's graffiti everywhere. They come in, and everything starts to unravel. And they say, like, police, get down, move out of the way. But, like, everything's too crazy at that point. Like, those appeals to... Because, really, I think that's what people don't realize, is, like, those's too crazy at that point. Like, those appeals to... Because, really, I think that's what people don't realize

is, like, those kinds of appeals to authority, like police and badges and guns, they only work because everyone agrees to respect those things and that they work. And the movie shows it perfectly, is that when everything has reached that point, like, it doesn't work and the crowds turn on him. And that's when you get into violent revolution. And, and, um, and I don't know if, if I had to, I suppose, and I don't know

what you think about this. If I had to distill the movie as to what I took away from it and what I think it's mainly about is that I almost take it as a warning to our society that we need to get to the point where we are listening and empathizing with the other and stopping our scapegoating to such a degree that if we don't, the kinds of, I don't even know how you'd say it, the kinds of spiritual structures that are holding everything together that we take for granted will erode to a point that all we're left with is chaos. Would you say,

if someone had a gun to your head and said, all right, you have to say, you have to identify one message in this movie, and of course you're going to resist and everything, but they're like, I'm about to pull the trigger.

So give me some, is that what you just said? Cause I, I mean, I definitely see it, saw that as a, something that came out of the movie, whether it's the theme or a theme or even an unintentional theme that came out.

I mean, um, I think it's a warning to, um, I don't know, and probably even the easier way to say it is like it's a warning to a society that no longer loves. Oh, that's good. Everything you're saying, I'm kind of running through various scenes and seeing do they somehow contribute to that.

Because the first time, I don't know, i think about the first time i watched the movie i remember the the main thing i took away and it's probably just because i'm uh i get lost in the story i'm an overly emotional person was i just kept thinking like i kept thinking like this guy i just kept wanting what i wanted to happen was i wanted someone just to love him. I wanted someone to hug him, to reach out to him. And he would have responded to that for the first half

of the movie, right? I think he would have. And even toward the end, I started wondering, what if at the very end, what if... You want another one? Yeah, sure. Same thing? Yeah. Thanks. the very end like what if yeah do you want another one yeah sure same thing uh yeah we'll do it thanks is that what i had what i have you had todd the x-man and uh yeah and i had the sour yeah um but no i i think if if uh even at the very end like when he's going out on the show

and he's fully manifested in the joker i was just like what if because even like the very end, like when he's going out on the show and he's fully manifested in the Joker, I was just like, what if, because even like the stagehands are looking at him strangely as he's doing his weird, because the dancing. The dancer's brilliant. The dancing is brilliant, but it's also like, it shows his progression. And I think of it almost, and I don't know the technical term,

but it's almost like the animus possession. Because there are times in the movie when he dances, and it's awkward and not good. Yeah, yeah. And then there are times when he dances. Thanks, man. And then there are times when he dances, and it's like fluid and seamless and strangely brilliant. So the first time he dances after he shoots the three guys in the bathroom at the subway, it's a little awkward. Well, the first time when he dances is like

when he gets the gun before he's done anything, and he's just like dancing in his room and just being like, oh, you're a great dancer. Oh, thanks. You know, and he's like playing all this stuff in his head. But it's unnatural. Yeah, it's weird. And then the bathroom is a little better. So there is a progression to his

dancing. Do you think that's intentional? Yes. Is the movie that stuff? Yes. I do think so, not. And then the bathroom is a little better. Yeah. So there is a progression. Oh, yeah. He's the most intentional. Yes. Is the movie that stuff? Yes. I do think so. Yeah, absolutely. Because on the steps, I mean, he's actually, I'm like, dude, he's a good dancer. Yeah.

Like, he's like. It's a different level. Rhythm and movement. Yeah, it's a different level. And there's actually, so, so the guy that I was telling you about, um, Burn Power, he's put out another video about the Joker since then. And, and because this is kind of, it's already started this cult phenomenon. So, like, even those stairs, people are going now to those stairs in New York as, like, and taking pictures as the Joker.

There's a girl who dressed up completely like the Joker and, like, reenacted scene by scene and shot by shot doing that whole dance routine down the stairs. And shot by shot doing that whole dance routine down the stairs. But, like, the difference is, and, like, he pointed this out and it's true, is, like, she's doing all the exact same mannerisms, but, like, she's not a brilliant actor, you know? So she can't capture. Something about the spirit that he captures is like, I don't know. It shows why he's a brilliant actor.

Because when he's dancing on that scene, it feels exactly right to the spirit of what the Joker is and has become. So in his push and pull between good and evil, which is ambiguous for the first half of the movie, and ends up pulling towards evil the fact that he seems I'm just thinking out loud, the fact that he's moving much more naturally, seamlessly even when he's on the show before he shoots the guy, he just is very okay with who he is

he doesn't seem to be troubled he's not even laughing and crying anymore, he's just his laughing isn't his laughing is no longer pained and restrained. Like that laugh comes out and it's just free and okay. So do you think that means who he truly is is evil? Because that's where he naturally, that's where he feels most natural? Or am I reading into the, it just made me think like with the progression of the dancing,

moving towards something that's more fluid more natural well and i think i think if you asked the character of the joker he would probably say that because that's what even when he ended up in this scene killing his mom that's what he ended up saying he's just like i realized you know because he goes through all that he says you told me my whole life that this laugh was, was, was wrong and off and that I shouldn't be doing it. And that, and that, you know, I was supposed to bring joy into the world and called me happy, but he's like, my whole life has been sad. I haven't been happy one day in my whole life. Oh, depressing that line. Oh my God. And then he says like, but now he's like, I'm perfectly okay with it because I've realized my life isn't a tragedy it's a comedy so that line do you think that that is a fulcrum

of that i mean oh yeah for sure i thought my life is a tragedy now i realize it's a comedy can you unpack that a bit because i kept trying to mull over that but then the movie kept going i didn't have time to like really like because i think that was a, I mean, that's a profound line. I thought my life was a tragedy. I think it is. And I don't even know if I know. It's one of those things that I know is significant, and I don't even know if I know how to talk it out.

He's, I don't, because the way that I would illustrate it is like with his laugh because he starts with that laugh that's just pain so his whole his social tick is that he has this laugh that he laughs in situations where it doesn't match what he's really feeling so like when he's anxious like yeah when he feels anxious or awkward or uncomfortable he'll laugh so he'll cry yeah so so like his his external doesn't match the internal which is very much like the clown the very first scene in the movie when he comes in and he has a clown face on he's trying to like yeah and he's forcing himself to have a smile as he's crying like this is oh that's right the movie the movie when you re-watch it

over and over and over, it's brilliant. Like, all the things are intentional. That captures the whole movie, right? Yeah, of course. That tear coming down with his makeup.

The first words as the scene is opening before you even see anything is, like, all news, all the time. Like, those are the first words. Yeah.

Out of hit way out of his mouth or... No, it's like... It's a news show, but, like, that's the... All news, all the't catch that. First words. Yeah. Out of Hintway, out of his mouth or? No, it's like, it's a news show, but like that's the. All news all the time. Yeah. So that's got to be a major theme that's intended. Yeah.

That we are so bombarded with so much news, some tragedy, some comedy, and we don't know how to sort it all out. Yeah. It's, I mean, in a sense, it's kind of like the Hunger Games, right? I mean, you're, you know. I sort it all out. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, it's kind of like The Hunger Games, right? I mean, you're, you know. I think it's related, yeah. Or even, this is going to take us way off track, but I've been disturbed by Coldplay's new song, Orphans.

Are you a Coldplay fan? No, I mean, I know of them vaguely, but not to the degree you are. So they're releasing a new album. Yeah. They have a song titled Orphans. Yeah. The lyrics are about the syrian damascus bombing in 2018 when there's tons of bombing created created orphans yeah it's a the lyrics

are dark i was maybe quasi dark they're just real they're just raw real not happy but the the tune of the song is super peppy. It's like a peppy pop song. Oh, dude, it's like so attractive. And even when he sings it, he's like dancing and everything. And I've been trying to figure out what's the relationship between the lyrics and the tune. And somebody on Twitter, a friend of mine, said, I think it's him contrasting all the horrors going on in the world and the West's just life is going on.

I'm going to Walmart. I'm doing, you know, like. Happy, happy. But it's like, well, wait a minute. Then I can't sing this song. like the tune that i'm mimicking the very western um you know and uh what's the word i'm looking for the western just ambivalence or just just right you know um yawning at what's going on around the world right if that again i don't know if that's the intentionality but it almost like it's like you literally can't sing the song if that's what's going on. Or you can't, like...

Or it takes a really weird... Yeah, the second you enjoy it, which you will because it's a great song, the second you enjoy it, you embody the very contradictions that he's trying to preach. If that's what's going on. If it is, then it's like... Which is a really interesting move to make as an artist, yeah. After we're done, we'll listen to it. Yeah, we should.

As long as you think, yeah. But that's what, so this is something that I took away from, again, that like Burn Power and Paul Vanderklay, their conversation. But when they were talking about, so something that Burn Power talks about as he goes through like the history of clowns and mimes and puppets and all these things. So what is that? He's trying to say, like, how did we get from clown,

which is a symbol of, like, fun and carnival and distraction and joy. But everybody knows clowns are freaky, right? Clowns are always terrifying. That's what he spends, like, an hour doing, is saying, like, how did clowns become scary? I don't know anybody that isn't scared of a clown right but that's not but that's a current thing that's not what clowns were historically clowns weren't always scary and so he's saying why are they scary what's going in with that and and and

what they a lot of what they come away with is that we we've gotten to a place in society that's come to like where society is a um like the title of the paul vanderclay video as i think is like um joker and the divination of fun because that's a brilliant paul if you're listening that's a brilliant yeah um but it's but it's kind of well paul's pretty brilliant but um it it ends up being like um clown, which are the symbol of like escape and joy and fun and mass. But they've turned into the very thing that we're afraid of and it's terrifying us. So what that is, is like when you take something that's fun and distraction and it getting away and you divinize it and make it the ultimate thing, like, it will destroy you. It will turn on you and destroy you,

which is what the Joker is a symbol of in a big way. Is this... I mean, is that just the nihilism of consumerism? I just started reading Brave New World by Huxley. Yeah. Which I know hardly... What's that? I've wanted to dive in, but I haven't yet.

I'm reading The Forward by Christopher Hitchens. Okay, yeah. He loved Huxley, yeah. Well, just The Forward alone is brilliant. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to read this book. And apparently it was that. Just in 1931 when he wrote it, he just saw hedonism going to extremes and just

he was so turned off by it even though he was an atheist right oh yeah yeah for sure but he was just like we're separating sex from procreation we're pursuing hedonism also hitchens is pretty conservative actually yeah well he was yeah interesting. Which a lot of people don't know, but it's kind of a... Sam Harris has some interesting political... Well, everybody does once you actually get past the simple labels. Yeah. But the divination of fun thing is interesting because it's... And I didn't realize this, but he made this point in the podcast, I think Paul did,

and they were both talking about this, he and Vern, but he was saying, even like our, even like our, our parting greeting to each other, we'll just be like, have fun. Or like when you see somebody, you'll just be like, oh, was it fun? Or did you have a fun time? Or like, how was school today? Was it fun? Like when you start. Or even how was church? Yeah.

Should we go there? Sure. How was church? Oh, it was good. Why was it fun like when you start or even how was church yeah should we go there sure how was church oh it was good why was it good oh man they played the best music yeah pastor the best you know it's it's all about entertainment but we live in a we live in a fun in a fun obsessed society which is consumerism hedonism all that stuff's connected to it. What's that book? I think we even talked about it on Voxer, Amusing Yourselves to Death. That was back in the 80s. What was his name? Neil Postman.

Yeah, I haven't read it, but it's, I mean, back in the 80s, from what I hear, it was a prophetic... It was one of those books that was like 30 years behind the time. Paul talks about that book all the time. Do you know who, and just randomly, I heard actually Zach Galifianakis. I was watching some interview, and he brought up Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves.

It's kind of a prophetic book. Because back in the 80s, we were maybe doing that, but not to the extent we are now. I think that's true. doing that but not to the extent we are now i mean and i think that's true is like i don't know it started so like even with my kids i've started to realize after watching joker and realizing this fun thing and then my kids talking all the time and just things that we talk about and like halloween recently and how we approach halloween and different things and i start to just i feel like even though i can't articulate what all the things are, I feel like I'm just like sensing Joker application everywhere. What's your beef with Halloween? Let's go there. Let's, let's, let's look at Halloween through the prism of, of the Joker.

so well I mean if you think about it in terms of and I mean and I don't know a lot of the history and the evolution of Halloween but what Halloween is now is just like put on like and this isn't everyone this I mean this is a cynical take on it right like some people do it better than others some people do homemade costumes and they go around they have fun things but like if you do it in the the worst way possible you but you either like you don't do anything homemade you go and buy like the cheapest made costume that's probably made like overseas by slaves with unethical you know fabrics and and that's going to be thrown away into a landfill and won't biodegrade. And then you go around.

You keep yourself up at night thinking so deeply. Yes, I hate all this stuff. And then you walk around. I never thought about this. Drives me crazy. And then you walk around to I never thought about that. Drives me crazy. Yeah, and then you walk around to all these neighbors like, and my

and a lot of kids. Threatening them with violence if they don't give you candy. I mean, theoretically, but you just say like, and it's not always as bad, but like you run up there and get candy and then run away because you're just trying to amass as much candy as you have. Like, as limited human interactions you have so you can get as much candy as you have. As limited human interactions you have so you can get as much candy as you have

that are all these little individually wrapped packets. There's no homemade stuff because you can't do that. And then you have tons of garbage that's just going to end up in a landfill with plastics. How do you live in this world? It's hard for me. It's very hard for me. This is why I told you.

This is why I told you next year me and my wife joked I need to take a silent retreat. You do. Like, you can't eat a Snickers bar without feeling guilty for ten different reasons. Yes. There's a lot of reasons. The chocolate that was forged by slaves. The wrapping that's going to, you know.

Nothing about it's true, good, and beautiful. It drives me crazy. me crazy um and and like there would there would be ways there would be ways to potentially go about it and do something of a of a similar spirit that could be good but but it doesn't end up being that and so like so all of that so to bring it back to joker all that's centered around fun me consumerism individualism and like and like it's not it. And it's not a complete binary. It's not complete back and white. There's fun interaction with neighbors. The kids are having a good time.

It's not the end of the world. But what I start thinking about is, is this more like human connection and love and overall health at the end of this? Or is it more just, like, isolation? Like, is this moving us toward or away from a Joker-like reality? Wow, wow. Versus 10 years ago.

Yeah. Versus 20 years ago. I think we're moving more and more towards a Joker-like reality. So I've often thought that, like, with so many different things going on in culture right now, politics alone, but then social media, the outrage culture, polarization, we can even throw in, you know race race conversations and tensions and lgbt stuff sexuality and gender and women and there's so much this volatility the biggest question is where are we going to be in five years two years ten years and is the joker Because I do feel like there's an intentional...

some kind of intentional commentary on all that stuff built into the fabric of the storyline of the Joker. I can't make sense of it. I don't know where exactly it lands or whatever, but on some level, it seems to be showing the inevitable outcome of where we are going as a society.

That if you move, like, if you keep acting chaotically, you will have chaos. I mean, I don't know if that's the simplistic way of putting it, but I mean, if you think that there is a clear line between good people and bad people and all white people are bad people and, you know, they're the oppressors and everybody else is the oppressed or vice versa or whatever. Like any kind of groupish tribalism, any kind of mob mentality will lead to chaos, both on a corporate level, as we saw in the movie, but also on an individual level. Like he is almost like the embodiment of corporateness. I'm just thinking out loud here. He's the embodiment of the larger riot. Of the larger riot, yeah.

They both come together in a character of the Joker. He represents almost the I don't know how he would represent the rich, but at least the good and the bad. He has this goodness to him, this badness to him, and it just is interacting throughout the movie. And it kind of, I don't know,

plays off the different communities that are represented. So how do we move away from that? Yeah, I guess. I mean, that might be one of the underlying points. It's kind of like the Book of Jonah. The Book of Jonah doesn't have a... It brings you face to face with your own hatred of the enemy, your own racism, your own ethnocentricity, and says, what are you going to do with this?

The end. Like, I don't have the solution. You go figure it out. Yeah. I almost feel like the Joker ends, it almost ends, like, kind of like the Book of Jonah. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's kind of like jazz, right? it doesn't it doesn't it's kind of like jazz it doesn't give you

a resolution yeah I mean which is frustrating like even in that final scene I was like it's not gonna end here

is it this can't be the ending like give me something else and it was like it ended with that kind of almost like no country for old men yeah

just where the ending wasn't an ending it was just kind of like it's like it ran out of, ran out of. Open-ended. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know, and I think that's what's, I think, really good.

I don't know, and people don't, I don't know, maybe people get annoyed with people saying things like this, but I think really good art really is, and I don't know how to say it's it's not that it's completely subjective in that in that there's no point to it like it's just it's all up to your interpretation no I don't think that's true there's always a point even if the point but I think there's multiple interpretations going on it's the kind of thing that um like I don't know if I was I think I was maybe telling you this, but I think that's what defines almost a classic is a classic, even when it comes to literature or books or movies or anything, it's something that's speaking to a particular point

in time, but it's so, but it's so deep and complex and good. It's so deep and complex and good that it, that it not only is going to speak to that particular point in time, but it's going to speak to future periods in time and past periods of time because it, it taps into something transcendent. And in order to tap into something transcendent, of course it's got multitudes of meaning, you know?

Yeah. Um, because it has to. So, um, you know, I don it has to so um you know i don't know we're getting we're paying a check here i think it might close a little early so yeah um man yeah i don't know i mean it so people might wonder it is rated r the movie's rated r we haven't talked about this there was a few violent scenes it was a lot less violent than I thought it was

yeah you were expecting something worse I thought it was super like hideously gory but there was a few violent scenes it was nothing more than Gladiator

or something and even like swearing there was some you know he's kind of a thank you very much yeah

he's kind of porno so there's some like quick like you know half a second flashes's kind of porno you know so there's some like quick like you know half a second flashes to kind of hit some of his porn stuff

but it wasn't I mean of course I think it should be rated R but it wasn't nearly as bad as some rated R movies I've seen I mean I think a lot

of the rating I mean I don't know just the intensity of it I think that's a lot of it there was a lot of intensity but yeah it's not like if you had to break it down to it, like, it's the, and it's funny how that stuff can hit people. Because, yeah, the violence, it's not a, the violence that's in it is definitely dramatic and intense.

But, like, it's not, the bulk of the movie, I don't know, if you had to break it down percentage-wise, like 5% of it's violent. Well, the first two-thirds was nothing. There was hardly any swear words or violence in the first two-thirds. It wasn't even... I was shocked. I thought it would be like, oh my gosh, am I going to stomach the gore? I don't know why I thought that. Yeah, I think a lot of it is the intensity.

Yeah, it's not like a Saw movie or something. But even the violence... And look, I believe in nonviolence, so of course, you know. But I feel like it was, it wasn't graphic for entertainment's sake. It was just real. Like, if a guy got shot in the head, that's probably what it would look like. Yeah. And it was shocking. It was disturbing how, I don't know, this is a bad word but i mean how well they well how accurately

portrayed what it would look like but it was like i don't think they were trying to glorify the violence they were trying to say if this happened which it does happen in real life this is what it would look like and there was only really i mean honestly i remember too i mean the subway scene is just people getting shot it wasn't anything but like this is what it would look like. And there was only really, I mean, honestly, I only remember two. I mean, the subway scene is just people getting shot. It wasn't anything, but like when he smashes the guy's head against the ball and then shooting the Murray,

those are two that were just like a little bit more shocking, but it wasn't, again, it wasn't glorifying violence. It was just portraying the reality of violence, which I think is a big difference. No, I think that's true.

And then even the, I think what is, so I've referenced this a few times, but like Burn Power, this guy who does some commentary on it, one thing that he says is that you, a lot of times you can go to a comic book movie, kind of in the Scorsese sense of it, as a way to just kind of like escape things into these worlds of like superhero fantasy. But he says one thing the Joker doesn't allow you to do is to escape into this fantasy world, because a lot of people will escape into this world of imagination where like, oh, I'm a superhero. But he's like, you don't want to be in that world interesting he's like that's the kind of world where like it doesn't allow you to just be like oh i'm in this fantasy world of the joker that's a terrible world yeah like it's not a fun world yeah that's good and i think the violence really allows you to um i don't know

it's just it's uncomfortable like everything about him is uncomfortable i think a movie without violence not that every movie has to have violence but i always make a distinction of is it simply recording sin and addressing sin in its narrative which is just real life yeah the bible's filled with violent things. Doesn't mean it's morally right. Right. Versus is it glorifying, you know, sin or violence or whatever.

Right. So, yeah. Well, even, I remember, because, like, well, and all, so, like, I had a conversation afterwards with my parents about the Joker. Did they see it? No.

No. They wouldn't? No. Because it's rated R no no no yeah well just because I don't know I'm sure they saw on the news or something about how terrible it is or something like that and um and my dad was saying something about how violent it was and bad it's glorifying violence or like it's such a violent movie and I was and I was trying to kind of have this nuanced conversation with him just being like the passion of was that way. Just being like, the Passion of the Christ is violent. You know, like, what is, it's not.

Way less violent than the Passion of the Christ. For sure. Way less. For sure. And so then you have to say, like, what is the violence doing? What is it about? Exactly. What's the function of the violence?

You know, it's not. Is it glorifying? I mean, it's cliched, but I mean, is it glorifying it or is it critiquing it? Right. And. There's nothing about this movie that's glorifying violence. No, not at all. We've got to get out of here. You've been listening to Theology in a Raw, Luke Thompson,

Preston Sprinkle talking about the Joker. I don't know how to close this out. How many stars do you give it out of five? Is this a five-star? is this out? I, you know, I would, yeah. How many stars do you give out of five? Five, is this a five star? Um, I mean,

out of, out of all the movies that I've seen recently that I think are culturally significant and meaningful. I mean, like I was telling you, this is, this is the only movie, there's only a few movies that i've seen multiple times in the theater this being one and silence being the other monday we saw it monday afternoon at 2 p.m

yeah that either we're losers or we're super we're definitely not losers we're winners so thank you because i started to doubt myself i was like oh yeah wait a minute i just went to a movie with six other people in the theater at two in the afternoon and i got this massive bucket of popcorn and a 32 ounce diet coke and i put way too much butter on that popcorn which you refrain from anything because you. Because I'm a hero. You probably saw this being, let alone, okay, let's forget watching R.A. the movie as immoral. Maybe that butter was immoral.

But anyway. That's what I was most traumatized about. You were most disturbed by it. When I'm in a theater, whenever I'm in a group of, like, few people, I don't take it as like we're the weirdos. I just think like we're the few. Everybody else who's not here is weird. Few and elite. That's right.

Why wouldn't you be watching a Joker on Monday afternoon at 2 p.m.? That's right. All right. We got to cut it out. Thanks so much for listening to Theology Interrupt. We'll see you next time on the show. Thank you.