Theology in the Raw - 770: #770 - Life of a Pastor’s Kid: Barnabas Piper

Episode Date: December 16, 2019

Preston sits down with Barnabas Piper (John’s son) to talk about the pros and cons of growing up in the fishbowl of a pastor’s family. Barnabas has been through a lot and is super honest and raw about his journey. He’s wrestled with his faith, found his own theological journey, been through a divorce, worked for a conservative Christian organization, and now serves on staff at a church in Nashville. And he’s written a few books in the midst of it all. Barnabas Piper is the author of three books - The Pastors Kid, Help My Unbelief, and The Curious Christian. He co-hosts two podcasts, The Happy Rant and The Table of (mal)Contents, writes for He Reads Truth, and has contributed to numerous other websites and publications. Piperspeaks regularly at churches and conferences around the country and lives in Nashville with his two daughters and serves on staff at his church, Immanuel Nashville. https://twitter.com/barnabaspiper https://www.facebook.com/bpiper/ https://www.instagram.com/barnabaswpiper/ Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today, my friend from a distance, Barnabas Piper. Barnabas Piper is, yes, he is the son of pastor and author John Piper. And he's actually written a book about what it was like being raised in the Piper household. It's called The Pastor's Kid, Finding Your Own Faith and Identity. Barnabas has also written a book on doubt and unbelief called Help My Unbelief, Why Doubt Is Not the Enemy of Faith. And also more recently, The Curious Christian, How Discovering Wonder Enriches Every Part of Your Life. Barnabas has an interesting journey. And what I love about Barnabas is he's not afraid to just be honest

and talk about failures and successes and highs and lows and things like doubt and unbelief and what it was like being raised as a pastor's kid. So we had a really wonderful conversation. It got pretty raw and real, which I knew it would. And I just, I love Barnabas's kids. So we had a really wonderful conversation. It got pretty raw and real, which I knew it would. And I just, I love Barnabas's perspective on the Christian faith, on evangelicalism, on life. And so we try to cover as much as we could in an hour. So without further ado, please welcome to Theology in the Raw for the first time,

the one and only Barnabas Piper. All right, I am here with my friend Barnabas Piper. The first time I heard about Barnabas Piper, I'm sure, was in a sermon from your dad, Barnabas' dad, whom most of my audience probably knows, John Piper. But I'll never forget hearing sermon illustrations talking about Barnabas. And I was like, that's such a cool name. And then a couple of years ago, we got to hang out in person in Los Angeles. And man, I just I've really appreciated as we're just talking about offline, you know, just just your for lack of better terms, your authentic or honest perspective on the Christian life. I think sometimes we have these kind of pie in the sky, you know,

views of Christianity, especially kind of celebrity Christianity. And I just, yeah, I really appreciate your honesty and how you've reflected on the Christian faith. So anyway, all I have to say, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. Absolutely. I'm glad to be on with you and appreciate those kind words. Yeah, I haven't found celebrity to be a terribly beneficial thing in the Christian life. So to me, any reflections on faith sort of reside outside of celebrity, just in the sense of that's, I don't know, that's a thing that exists, but it's not very formational in terms of one's genuine faith, I guess. Well, can we start? Let's just start there. Because, I mean, you kind of wrote a book about it that touched on it. I mean, you do have a name that a lot of people recognize. So why don't you give us some pros and some cons about what it was like growing up in a family that was very, very high profile. I mean, not just a pastor's kid, but a very high profile pastor's kid.

Right. Yeah. I mean, all of the pros reside entirely with just the quality of my parents as, as godly parents in terms of their intentionality in, in raising us around the word of God, teaching us faithfully, their consistency in the home. You know, my dad's, my dad was not a different person at home than he was in public ministry, their dedication as parents, you know, in terms of just presence in our lives, little league games. And my, I don't know, I mean, my mom, I think is a superhero of some variety as our, as our most moms of numerous children. I have, I have four siblings. So, um, you know, being able to get us all where we needed to be and

they just were such a consistent presence. So the pros of, of my upbringing are, are mostly private. You know, it's the things that happen in the home, the things that happen in family life, my parents' consistency, their love of us. And on the church side, it's that aspect as well. It's the familial aspect. It's the relationships that were built. So the same things that really anybody who has a godly family has access to. The downsides are when you move into the public spheres of life. I don't think those are an upside for most people. They're either a temptation, a temptation to ego, a temptation to be a poser, to be somebody you're not, or they kind of crush you.

So the expectations that are placed on you from the outside. So, I mean, as a pastor's kid, I felt that a lot, the expectation to live up to a standard that was something other than live a life that honors Jesus Christ, you know, something, something other than authentic, genuine faith in Christ. You know, there's, there's moral standards. There's what would your father think if he saw this? There's just sort of all of these, those, those outside things that, that made it very hard to, to also gauge what is my faith versus what is this? What is the external expectation? What is the faith that has been handed to me? And it took me, I don't know, I was probably in my mid-20s, so 10 or so years ago, before all of that kind of shook itself out, largely because I made enough dumb decisions and kind of brought myself to, you know, God brought me to my knees, I guess, to help me realize what does it mean to have a real relationship with Christ and kind of shook loose a lot of the things that had been placed on me or the things that I had attached myself to that weren't, that were much more external expectation, that kind of thing. Did you have like a, um, a prodigal son? Do you have like a, a fallen away kind of part of your narrative like growing up or did you always own your faith or? You know, it kind of both, but it was,

so it wasn't prodigal son. I was, it wasn't prodigal son in that I sort of ran away from the faith. There was never that, but there was a, there was an internal hypocrisy aspect of things because, because I so wanted to be seen as, um, the good Christian kid with all of the answers. I've always been a know-it-all. I've always been kind of too smart for my own good, or at least too smart mouth for my own good. That's probably a better way to put it. And so even up through college,

there was a sense of external perfection, so to speak, facade, and then internal identity crisis, not having a keen sense of who I was in Christ. And when that kind of hypocrisy happens, there's a lot of room for just for sin to begin to sort of fester and grow. And for me, that was issues of honesty, issues of misrepresenting who I was to try to sort of fester and grow. And for me, that was issues of honesty, issues of misrepresenting who I was to try to be seen as something. And that's the kind of stuff that caught up to me because it just led to a whole series of dumb choices and dishonesty that got me fired from a job. That was kind of my first great job out of college. And a few years into it, I got fired. And just my inner turmoil and all of that stuff got exposed.

And so that was when God was really able to say, this is who I am. All of this stuff that you have been posing at isn't real. So it was the time when I was really forced to sort through what do I genuinely believe versus what have I been handed? Who is God really? What does it really mean to believe the scriptures or do I believe them? And through that, come to a place of being able to say, I really do genuinely follow Jesus. And I really can own that. And I really can ask for forgiveness. And I really do understand what grace and forgiveness means. And also here's all the ways that I'm terrible as a Christian

and all the ways that I have fallen on my face. And I, you know, kind of forced to not think too highly of myself, which I had absolutely done prior to that. So it wasn't a prodigal son aspect of fleeing as much as it was. Maybe I was more like the older brother, you know, in terms of having all of the right, having all the right answers and all the right facade and not having the heart of a genuine, loving, believing Christian. Did you ever struggle with like an identity crisis? Like I would imagine, and maybe this is totally not true, I don't know, but like rather than being Barnabas Piper, being John Piper's son or, you know, like that kind of, you know, and people live under the cover of like

a celebrity kind of figure. Was that ever really difficult figuring out who you were or not necessarily? Yeah, I think it was a compounding factor for me. So, again, because there wasn't an overt rebellion against it or anything like that, but it definitely played a role both on the ego boosting side of, you know, kind of feeding into the worst aspects of me, you know, pretending to be something, but then also causing a fair amount of insecurity because, oh, I, I can't admit to not knowing something. I can't admit to failing. I can't admit to sin because, because I'm expected to be, paragon of evangelicalism or whatever. And I still struggle with that a little bit now, being an author, being in the pseudo public eye,

the very small Christian public eye, if you will, trying to find that balance of being a genuine follower of Christ with a genuine voice that is my own versus the pressure to kind of parrot whatever my dad's stance on things is. Because he and I don't, we don't hold all the same views and we certainly don't express things the same ways. My know, my, my sense of humor is different. My, my understanding of certain parts of scripture are different. The core things we believe similarly in terms of, you know, basic Christian orthodoxy, but so that that's a tension. I still feel some, you know, and I still probably every week I hear from somebody who makes some reference to my dad that, that I have to conscientiously figure out how to

respond graciously to, but not cave to. Can you identify some of those points? I was, cause I was gonna ask that question anyway. Like where, where have you really resonated with your dad's theology approach to Christianity, whatever, and where are some areas that you've departed from? And again, I never want to, as much as you feel comfortable talking about publicly. Yeah. Well, and so I'll say this initially, like my, my dad and I have a good relationship and we're not, you know, this is not a, there are not points of contention that cause, you know, friction between us. We're not arguing, we're not fighting. Some things I avoid talking about because I don't like arguing with my dad. Some things it's just, it's peaceable. I would say

the biggest issues of departure have to do with his application of roles of men and women in life. He has said many things very pointedly about jobs that women should not hold, or should women be professors in seminary or whatever. And I don't see the application of scripture the same way he does when it comes to those things. He's one of the primary writers on the complementarian viewpoint. He and Wayne Grudem wrote sort of the seminal tome on it.

Some of which I agree with, much of which I think the application has been maybe extended too far into life into life and the marriage and the society, things like that. Would you still be on the complimentary inside of things as far as ministry when it comes to leadership and that when the, the only place I would put myself as a complimentary and you know, and I think this is probably cause I,

cause I think this is defensible from scripture as opposed to some of the others are the role of pastor, pastor, elder in the church does. I see that as, um, as designated for men. Um, when you start to apply it into male headship and the rest of life jobs, women can't hold, I just don't see a lot of biblical basis for that in scripture, whether it's law enforcement, whether it's, you know, working outside the home, whatever. I mean, there, there are a lot of very conservative complementarian applications that I think are not really very defensible from, from a biblical viewpoint. Um, so that's a significant departure from my dad. If it, when we, when you get to reformed theology as a whole, uh, I am,

I would consider myself reformed. Um, a difference from my dad is that I don't wear Calvinism as a badge of honor. You know, it's to me, I've heard it said that, you know, reformed theology is like underwear. It should be, it should be supportive and helpful and not visible. And I, and I kind of, it's kind of how I see it. It's like, it's necessary. And it's kind of how I see it. It's like it's necessary. It is a thing that influences how you view Scripture and God and everything else. But I don't want to throw it up in the forefront and systematize or over-categorize things so much that there's a neat and tidy answer to every theological question.

much that there's a neat and tidy answer to every theological question. Because I think reformed theology, if misused, runs the risk of over-systematizing God. And honestly, as much as we, they, talk about a big sovereign God, it can limit God and over-define him such that he loses his sovereignty by categorizing him too much. Oddly enough, I had Greg Boyd on the podcast a few weeks ago. By the time this is released, I think that one will already have been released, but he kind of said the same exact thing that it's almost like his, yeah, he feels like his position, which I'm still processing, yeah, he feels like his position, which I'm still processing, um, is almost gives God more freedom than, than less. Um, yeah. Interesting. And, um, and I think, you know, I, I, I don't know where Greg Boyd stands on much now. I know that when I was, you know, my, my high school years, especially

the open theism debate was significant. And my dad and Greg Boyd were pastors of significant churches in the same denomination holding polar opposite viewpoints. I would very much side with my dad's view of, you know, God's God's sovereignty and predestination and things like that versus where Boyd was then. And I know that Boyd has the theological progression happens. I don't know where he's at exactly now.

And I don't want to unfairly represent him. So, you know, yeah. And we don't need to dive too deep into this, but I remember in seminary reading, you know, Bruce Ware and reading the critiques of open theism. We never were kind of allowed to read Pinnock or Boyd or others. And so I had this kind of caricature or, you know, or secondhand kind of source of what he actually believed. So it was fascinating to hear say, okay, you tell me what you believe. And I was like, well, man, that sounds really different than the stuff that he even said that he doesn't call

himself an open theist. Like that's not a term he uses or prefers like somebody else sort of coined that term and gave it to him. But I mean, that debate was prominent 20 years ago. I mean, it's theological debate and understanding and relevance shift dramatically. I mean, 15 years is an eternity in terms of theological debate. And I'm imagining his viewpoint has refined and changed a little bit over time. Or maybe he's exactly where he was. I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah. I found it. It's not my area. Like predestination and free will and super lapsarian. I mean, all that stuff, that's not been an interest of mine. So I kind of plead the fifth on it. And frankly, it's not really an interest of mine. So I kind of plead the fifth on it. And frankly, it's not really an interest of mine. I mean, it's a thing that I look at and it matters to me because I do see it in Scripture.

And for that reason, it has to be studied, taught, understood to a degree. But where I get uncomfortable is where that is the flag that is waved because I think it's just not very helpful. And especially in our day and age where there are so many questions, opposition, struggles with coming to know Jesus, with the gospel as kind of the gospel, not, not just a reformed definition of gospel. To put that at the forefront is often to create an obstacle to finding Jesus. And so I think I it's dear to me. It matters to me, but it is not, it's not a subject that I love to debate or or to get into in most contexts. Yeah, no, I'm the same way. I'm the same. I mean, when I heard Boyd articulate his position, I'm like, ah, that, I could see the coherency. You

definitely have, definitely have exegetical arguments. I mean, I've got several, like, what about this? What about that kind of things? But I mean, it seemed like a, I absolutely wouldn't say it's like heresy, or he's diminishing God. Like, it seemed like a coherent way in which to read scripture. And I think it has some really interesting, if not helpful pastoral applications. But yeah, most of all, I found that when he articulated his position,

it seemed very different than the critiques I've heard of his position, which is pretty, I mean, look, you and I have been around this. We've been in this game long enough where that's typically how it goes, right? When you're raised in an environment that's always critiquing that person and that person is a heretic, when you actually talk to the heretic, you're like, wow, you're very different than the way you were described by the people that were critiquing you. other members of our staff at our church today, and we were talking about the risk that we run in this cultural context of waging war within the church, that the defense of the gospel is against the enemy, not against one another, primarily. That doesn't mean that we don't disagree, and it doesn't mean that people within the church do not misrepresent scripture, misunderstand scripture. In some sense, we all misunderstand scripture in places, but we need to defend the gospel against the devil and against the lies of the devil.

And so to be waging war within the church is big picture harmful. And so, again, I don't know where Greg Boyd is at. If he was on, I certainly would not want to bring the big guns to bear. I would rather figure out, well, first of all, what does it look like for him to love Jesus? Because that's mutual ground. Yeah. I love Jesus. I think he does. And so there's a, there's a mutuality that is the defining thing there. Um, beyond that, I don't know where his theological stance is. If I did, we very well might differ extremely and have a very pointed disagreement. But, uh, but if, if there's the mutual ground of following Jesus with our lives, that ought to matter more. So yeah, his faith feels incredibly vibrant, authentic, real.

And his commitment to Scripture is almost, I don't want to say fundamentalist, but he's so scripturally committed and even like concerned that there's drift on the authority of scripture. I mean, again, I found him to be, yeah, we hung out once at ETS. And man, he was like, you know, we're praying over the pizza we're about to eat, Giordano's in Denver. And he was like praying for the waitress and talking to her and stuff. And I'm like, dude, this guy is like, yeah. Whatever agreement or disagreement there might be theologically, he just seemed like a radical Jesus follower, you know? Yeah.

And I think, I mean, it's funny because I have this internal twinge right now that's like, oh, your Calvinist cohort are going to be so offended at your unwillingness to shoot Greg. I don't think they're listening to my podcast. That's probably true. But I mean, I do have strong theological stances on things, but over the last few years, I have tried more and more to understand what it looks like to have a commonality in Christ with those who you profoundly disagree. I suspect I profoundly disagree with Greg Boyd, but what you just described as somebody who I also look at and go, he probably knows Jesus in a way that I do not. And because I don't pray with waitresses and I don't have sort of that

bubbling over passion that you just described. And so there's something that I should probably gain and learn from somebody who has that emphasis and that spiritual development and growth that I don't have. Yeah, that's good. So you wrote this book, A Pastor's Kid, that just talked about your journey as a, not just any old pastor's kid, but the kid of John Piper. What was the response to that book? Because I know you were like, you're pretty honest in that book. And well, first of all, I want to know what was your dad's reaction? And then what's been the general reaction to that book? Because it was kind of, I don't want to say it's a bomb, but I mean, it was like, wow, this book is really honest.

Like you didn't hide stuff, you know? Yeah. It wasn't like the, it wasn't like the memoir tell all of like all of the, uh, you know, kind of dirty secrets of, of the Piper household. Here's all the ways my parents are hypocrites, whatever. Cause they weren't right. Oh, it, they, they really were not. It was, it was a, it was a first person plural.

So trying to speak on behalf of pastor's kids as a whole. And I did talk to many of them to make sure that I wasn't crazy and I wasn't misrepresenting the life of a pastor's kid. First person plural. Look at these are the struggles that pastor's kids face of pressure, of hypocrisy, of doctrine, of what does it mean to really love Jesus when you're told how to love Jesus and never given a chance to figure it out for yourself those kinds of things um my dad's response so my dad didn't read it until I finished so he knew I was writing it I wasn't you know I didn't hide it from him but he wrote the foreword for it and he's pretty honest in the foreword where like the first sentence is something like this was painful for me to read

and kind of laid out different parts where it hit a nerve, but also places where he thought it was a helpful and necessary read for pastors. And then kind of ended with, he resonated with my heart for pastors, for pastor's kids, and for the church, which is really unifying. My goal was not to drive a wedge between pastor's kids and their families or their church, but to say, there already is a gap. Can we bridge it? Can pastors and pastor's spouses draw closer to their kids? Can the kids be more honest in a way that brings families together? And can the church gain some awareness of the pressures that exist on the pastor's family? And you you know, you've written books. And so you know that you write it and you kind of put it out in the world and you just kind

of shrug and go, it's in God's hands now. You know, like it's, I hope it resonates with people. I hope it helps people in their place of need because you've written on some very sensitive subjects. And so those are things that you go, I really hope it, it hits the nerves that it needs to hit either to convict or to encourage. Uh, and that was my hope and prayer with the book. And thankfully it, you know, it's not the world's bestseller, but it, the stories I've heard back from both pastors, kids and pastors alike are exactly what I prayed for. You remember sitting at, sitting at lunch with a pastor of a large Southern Baptist church at one point. And he just, you know,

we were with a group of people and he just kind of leaned over to me and he said, Hey, um, your book was one that I gave to my high school daughter. Who's, you know, she was like an all state runner, uh, prom queen, just sort of the perfect all American kid. He said, I, you know, she was like an all-state runner, prom queen, just sort of the perfect all-American kid. He said, you know, he read the book and then started just asking her questions that he had never thought to ask. And he said she just broke down and cried because there was so much sort of pent-up pressure under the surface of perfection that she had never known she could talk about that there was an outlet for any of those kinds of things. And so I've heard those kinds of stories. I've heard from pastor's kids who are 40 and 50 years

old saying that it put into words things that they have struggled with in their own spiritual identities for decades. And I'm just profoundly grateful that the unpleasant aspects of my upbringing, the challenges that I faced are things that God has been able to use to help, in some cases, mend some other families. I just heard from a high school senior two weeks ago, I think, who just said he's at his wits end and he doesn't know how he's going to make it through spiritually because he just feels crushed by the weight of his parents' ministry. And he got his hands on my book and, and he said, it's such an encouragement to know that there's somebody 20 years ahead of me who, who's, who's making it. And I can, you know, God, God used it in that way. And the book is five, six years old. I don't know how he found it. I don't know who gave it to him. I don't know if he like got it from the church library or whatever. But, um, and the funny thing is it's out of print right now because it's switching from one publisher to another. So the copies that are floating around out there are kind of sparse right now. Um, but it's, uh,

it's been really incredible to both to realize how common my experience is with pastors, kids of different generations of tiny churches, mega churches, you know, seven, eight, 12 different denominations. Pastors can be Brazil, South Korea, Europe, Australia. I mean, just there's a commonality to the challenges ministry kids face. And the other really encouraging aspect is the number of pastors who have read it because they want to love their children better. Wow, that's awesome. The number of young pastors who have read it and said, I'm reading this while my child is two so that I can love them better when they're eight and 12 and 18. And I just, that, I love that. I love seeing people in ministry figure out how to put the ministry of their family first. And so that's, that's been deeply encouraging.

Are there some common themes or like what's the most common theme among all the pastor's kids you've talked to, like challenges that they face? Just expectations, I think primarily. Put on by their parents or by the larger church context or both? It's largely the church context. I have heard from a few who's, you know, they get these sort of like, you represent our family, the internal family thing. There are definitely some profoundly dysfunctional pastor's families out there.

I've heard from representatives of them. Hypocritical parents, ones where dad was in ministry for 20 years and then they found out he was having an affair with a secretary and so the whole world comes crumbling down. That's a whole different thing because you're talking family crisis, trauma, trust issues, just the hurtfulness of that situation. What I hear most consistently is just the pressure to believe something and the pressure to be something without the ability and the freedom to grow into it. You know, we have to grow into maturity as people and as Christians and pastor's kids are not really given that opportunity. Like giving them space to doubt, to question, to believe their own kind of set of things or

whatever, like giving them just that space. And be an adolescent idiot, you know, like 15 year olds are stupid and they do dumb things, but there's not the freedom to do the dumb thing and learn from your mistake or to, to kind of be graciously responded to when you're a clown, uh, or, or when you're, or when you like really screw up, you know, you get somebody pregnant or you get a DUI or whatever. Those are things that, um that the pastor's kids don't have. There's a scarlet letter aspect to some of those things as opposed to being folded back into the family of God in a restorative, gracious, this is what forgiveness looks like, this is what grace looks like, this is what support looks like. And then on the personal spiritual side, it's a matter of you are told what to believe, how to believe it, how to express it before you can think and speak. And so, yeah, things like doubt, things like questions, you're figuring, you know, you get to a hard passage of scripture and you're very uncomfortable with it, but you can't pose the questions that are internal

because you know how you're supposed to believe that, how you're supposed to believe in the sovereignty of God or how you're supposed to believe in the judgment of God or the mercy of God or whatever it is. And you go, I just don't get it. Or that doesn't, how does this mesh? And you can't ask those questions freely because you represent the pastor who teaches that stuff. There's also an aspect of if you screw up, your parents might lose their job and their livelihood. If you take issue with what your parents teach, you're taking issue with their boss, who is Jesus. So that's a problem. If you screw up, your parents might lose their job because the deacons or the elders or the whatever governing

body you have could say, they can look at first Timothy and say, you're not governing your household well. So you can be the cause of destitution or job loss or whatever. And all of those are factors in, in the pressure on a pastor's kid. I mainly hear about the external expectations and then that internal belief pressure. So we got a good number of pastors that listen to this. What would your advice be to them as a pastor with, let's just assume they have kids and they're trying to say, okay, so what can I do now to prevent some of this from happening? It's really hard for a pastor to prevent the external church-wide kind of pressure because unless it's a brand new church and you can sort of create a whole culture, I do see that diminishing somewhat because there's church planting has been such a,

such a phenomenon over the last 15, 20 years that younger churches seem to, to not have quite as many struggles with that. Or maybe it's just that the pastor's kids are younger and aren't articulating it yet. I'm not sure which. But I think the best thing that the pastor and pastor's spouse can do is to have real open conversation with your kids so that you are in it together as a family. Like that, the pastor I mentioned of that mega church, he just started asking questions of his daughter. Hey, do you feel pressure like this? Do you feel like people are watching you? Do you feel like you can't say this, do this, believe this, and then, you know, see where that goes, but respond with grace, respond with a listening ear. Don't preach at them. Don't counsel them. Just be a good

parent who just says, I'm with you in this. I didn't know you were struggling with that. I'm sorry I didn't ask earlier. And then turn it around and go, guess what? I feel the same things. Like we share this because pastors feel the same thing. Pastors' spouses feel the same thing. They feel the pressure to be and to do and towards perfection and whatever. And so to kind of share that, because isolation is a terrible thing for a pastor's kids. You just feel like nobody is walking this the same way that I am. So I think those kinds of conversations and then those sort

of gracious responses to show, because I mean, Jesus responded graciously to people who are hurting, doubting, struggling. So like you're representing Jesus to them in a way that they have maybe never seen when you give them the opportunity to cry, to scream, to swear, to ask questions that are unsafe and to say, I'm really glad that you're my child and I'm really glad you're, you just said that and that we can talk like this. Yeah. I want to thank you for that, man. I think that's that. I'm not a, I mean, I'm not a pastor per se, but I'm in ministry, but it's, it's, it's, I think, I think it's different with my kids.

I don't, because we're not in a week to week Christian and like community where I'm upheld, you know, I'm just, I'm a pew sitter. Like I go, I show up at a church, nobody knows I'm there and nobody knows who I am or doesn't care. You know? So my kid, I don't, I don't think my kids have that kind of pressure, but, um, but man, even, yeah, I man, I need to double check that though, don't I? I need to actually figure out, do you feel pressure to be a certain person there's so much that a child walks the way they kind of, they kind of live according to the lanes that are drawn around them, but that's not necessarily what they're thinking and internalizing and the things they're

struggling with. But yeah, if you're, if you're in vocational ministry, there's a pointedness to it. So when I moved from the publishing world, which I worked in for 14 or 15 years into church ministry just a few months ago, my daughters had some challenges with this before I even got into the job. Because they told friends at school that their dad was switching jobs from a publishing job to a church job, and they started to get treated differently at a public school. Now, granted, we live in Tennessee where church culture is very different than it is in, you know, the East coast, West coast, and then the North. But, but me, my daughter came home just annoyed one day because she's like, I don't want to go over to that friend's house anymore. Cause her mom is always like, well, you can't listen to that music. Cause your dad works at a church or you can't watch that movie anymore. Cause your dad works at a church. And can't watch that movie anymore because your dad works at a church. And so she's like, I don't even want to deal with that.

And so, you know, that I'm glad she told me, but it opened the door for me to have a conversation where both it allowed me to empathize with her and say, trust me, I completely understand. Yeah. And also just to kind of reiterate for her what a real standard is. You know, we don't pick our music based on my job. You know, there's, there are good standards and bad standards, but you know, the moral standard is the same for anybody. What is a Christ honoring life? That's what we're trying to figure out. Yeah. I would love to shift gears a little bit. Well, not actually not too much. And, and again, I just, I want to be super sensitive to you being a public figure and also having a personal life. But you went through a divorce a few years ago. Would you mind, as much as you're comfortable, talking us through that?

And what I specifically want to know is, given the fact that you do have a name with status, it would be different if you were just, you know, Joe the mechanic in the back of the pew. And I apologize to anybody named Joe, who's a mechanic who sits in the back of a pew. But like, I would imagine that being a Christian in Christendom and evangelicalism and going through a divorce is different for you than it would be maybe for the other person. Cause you have to deal with all kinds of other perceptions, opinions, and stuff about that. Can you walk us through that and how you did and are navigating that situation? Yeah. Um, yeah, I appreciate the way you asked the question and yeah, it's, so I got, I got divorced in 2016, so it's been almost three years now. Um, and,

and it was trying to figure out those questions was really hard because on the one hand I'm trying to, you know, I was in the middle of what was probably the most painful personal experience of my life. It wasn't, it wasn't something that I wanted. It was something that for a whole variety of reasons, my ex-wife thought was the best choice for her. And so it was, it was, it was unwanted. It was really difficult. And so I was trying to deal with it at the, at a spiritual level, at a relational level, it just at a parenting level. Um, my daughters are, are middle school age now. So old, we're older elementary school then.

And so old enough to kind of know what was going on, but, um, but young enough that they needed really, like they needed certain kinds of explanation and not other kinds of explanation and real profound love and presence. And, um, and then at the same time, I'm trying to figure out how do I communicate this publicly? What is my obligation to, to my public? Because at that point I had, I had written two books and had my third on the way out very shortly. And so there's, there is a, I felt I owed it to my readership, the people who listen to the podcast that I co-host to say something, but I wanted to, to be respectful of my ex-wife's privacy and, you know, and, and, and just to be kind, like she doesn't not to throw anybody

under the bus, not to, not to speak spitefully. Um, and at the same time, there's a, there's a measure of wisdom and like, it's not anybody's business at one level. And so, and so I, I wrote, I wrote what piece that I I've since pulled off. I since pulled off my website, but I left it up for a couple years, that just sort of laid out what had happened and kind of my heart in that moment of trying to avoid cynicism, speaking highly of marriage. Like I wasn't cynical. I don't think more lowly of marriage than I did before. I'm not sort of jaded and like, well, that's for the birds. Poor guy's getting married. I think more highly of it now. I just, I think I understand better what goes into it now. Um, and kind of the miracle of a faithful

marriage, because I don't, I don't think that that can happen without some profound grace from God. Um, but so, so I wrote that I, I talked on a couple of different podcasts, one with a guy named Richard Clark, who's, uh, works for Christianity today. And so we, he, he's also divorced. And so we talked for probably 45, 50 minutes about what it's like to be divorced in the church. And what I discovered was that one of my greatest fears, which was people's judgments, people kind of the stone throwing, scarlet letter waving mentality that evangelicals can very often have, my fear was way overblown. And the responses that I heard from people were that I heard from people were overwhelmingly gracious. And I mean, just people, some people saying, I'm sorry, I'm praying, you know, just a very simple, some people sharing their own stories

of pain and how God helped them get through it. Some people sharing their own stories of pain that they were still dramatically stuck in. But just there was, there was very few, although I remember them vividlyly kind of nasty responses. It's amazing how the negative ones always stand out in your mind. But when I just think about quantity, we're talking like a 98 to two ratio of kindness and grace versus misunderstanding and lack of grace. Um, since then it has just been a, again, trying to primarily focus on what is, what

does it look like for me to faithfully walk through this as a believer, as a dad, um, just to, to progress through dealing with pain and sorrow and, um, how do you pray for reconciliation or not pray for reconciliation and these kinds of things, to do that in a way that leaves my conscience clear before the Lord. Because that's really what I wanted. I was like, wherever the other side of this thing is, this mess that I'm walking through, I want to come out of it and know that I did the right things, not to check boxes, but to pour myself out in prayer and in faithfulness and for my kids, that on the other side, I can go, it is in God's hands and I'll be okay. Is there anything, I just, this question literally just popped in my head. So if it's

inappropriate, let me know. Is there anything anything looking back do you ever feel like there's something I could have done to prevent this do you ever or I guess there's two questions one do you struggle with that thought and then how do you answer that thought if you do struggle with it um that has been a struggle um it the struggle, it, the struggle changes over time. Um, I'd say the first year and a half to two years out, that was a very much more present thing. Um, some of that had to do with the relational dynamic with, uh, with my ex-wife. We have, we have joint custody of our kids and she's a very involved, very dedicated mom. And so we're, we're in touch regularly, which is great for the kids

because I mean, of all of the cases in a situation like this, uh, it's, you know, it's much better than one parent being absent or there being constant, constant conflict between, between the parents. But it, it did change what it looked like, whatever moving on means it changed that dynamic for me because she was a presence in my life all the time and still is. Um, and so, yeah, there was a lot of regret, um, regret that it happened as well as just sorting through how did it happen? How did we get here? Those kinds of things. Um, and that, that part of that is also, you know, you asked the, you asked the question, um, a moment ago, just, um, kind of, or we were talking about moving on and those kinds of things.

Part of me moving on to, with a clean conscience was making sure that, that I had owned every part of my failures in our marriage. So some of that is, was repenting to my ex-wife if, you know, for, for failures and no marriage falls apart completely in a one-sided way. Um, some are much more one sided than others, but I definitely had to own sin and own failure in my own life and repent of it and apologize. But there does, I think for me anyway, there came a point where I just recognized that if I really believe in forgiveness, and if I really believe in the power of repentance and moving in a new direction in faithfulness to Christ, I can't be shaped by regret.

It doesn't mean like there's some sort of phony like, I'm fine. Everything's great. But just a, no, if Christ is the defining being in my life, that shapes me going forward, not things that maybe I should have done differently eight years ago. And I think that's true for anybody who is marked by regret. If you believe in the forgiveness of Christ, at some point you have to let that be the shaping factor in your life. And there's freedom in it, but it's a freedom you have to, you have to remind yourself of constantly. I have to regularly go, I'm, I'm forgiven. And also in a divorce context, it's never, it is never helpful to try to divide blame and be like, it's 70% your fault and 30% my fault.

My divorce was her decision. It was the decision that she chose for a whole variety of reasons. And I wish she hadn't. And I don't think she was right in her decision making. So there's also a part of I can't hold myself guilty or responsible for somebody else's choices. And to figure out how to do that without bitterness is a whole other, it's a whole other challenge. Like I don't want to be bitter towards her.

I don't want to be angry towards her. I don't want to, to have any of those things that are like any of those, those sort of sinful welling up. I wish ill towards you. So I don't think to have any of those things that are like any of those sort of sinful welling up, I wish ill towards you. So I don't think that's right. I don't think that's Christ-like. And I don't think it's healthy for my kids to be around either. So that's sort of a, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question or not. It's just that, but even my lack of clarity kind of gives you the sense of the push and pull of some of

these struggles. Do you have a good relationship with your ex-wife now? I mean, do you guys get along okay? Yeah, I mean, in terms of just a solid ongoing relationship, yeah, it's good. She's remarried now. Was that hard? I can imagine that being really hard. Yeah, it was.

I mean, the circumstances surrounding it were frustrating. It was hard. And then at the same time, it was, you know, in God's wisdom that is beyond my understanding, it was a thing that I needed to free me up for just a clear look at the future. You know, to be able to go, I knew that I needed to move on. I knew that chapter was closed, but like it's all the way closed. Yeah, yeah. And you're not remarried, right? I needed to move on. I knew that chapter was closed, but like it's all the way closed. Yeah, yeah. And you're not remarried, right? I'm not, no. I'm sure you studied divorce a lot. So this is, I might as well just ask, it's theology in the raw.

Do you feel like your divorce, like you're biblically cleared in a sense, as difficult as it is? And are you biblically free to remarry? I've not actually dug in. I mean, I know the textbook kind of like four views on divorce, whatever, but like, how have you processed this theologically? Yeah, I think so the short answer to your question is yes, I do think I'm sort of in the theological clear to remarry. I think, yeah, and without getting into all of the various views, I think questions of that have to do with, you know, who is the, who's the wronged party or who is the abandoned party? Uh, what is the marital or life status of your former spouse? You know, is there, are they,

have they passed away? Are they remarried? Um, is there, what does repentance look like in the relationship? You know, in terms of reconciliation, willingness to reconcile those kinds of things. So I think there's, there, there are a lot of factors in that, but given, given the choices she made, given the, her, the fact that she is remarried, given what reconciliation repentance look like and don't look like respectively. Um, there's, yeah, I think I'm in a position where remarrying would be just fine. No,'re last time i checked this is probably 15 years ago your dad has a really strict well let me say that strict

might be a specific view on divorce like no never ever like has that has that caught how have you guys now you and your dad navigated your relationship that's this could probably take a whole nother podcast episode i'm sure but well But I mean, I, yeah, I can answer it relatively shortly. Um, that was one of the scarier things for me. Um, I mean, not necessarily in getting divorced cause he, he is not somebody who blames a divorce party for being divorced. Just like he doesn't look at it and go, it's the D word kind of thing. Yeah. For him, the stance has much more to do with, I mean, he doesn't believe divorce is ever right. He does believe that, you know, sometimes it can't be helped. But he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe in divorce and remarriage at all while your former spouse is alive because of his understanding of the permanence of covenant,

which is one of the, you know, it's one of the biblically explainable views. So it was really scary for me to go to him and say, I'm seeing somebody else. So I'm, you know, I'm dating somebody now. And for him, for me to tell him was hard. Like, that's not a thing that should be hard to tell your parents. Like that should be something that they should be like, oh, that's great. When do we get to meet her kind of thing? And, and so I was nervous, but he and I had talked through all of this. And so all he really wanted to know from me was, have you thought through this biblically? Have you arrived at a conclusion that you think is, is the God honoring conclusion? You're not just sort of on a whim throwing yourself into a

romance driven by something maybe sinful, maybe foolish, as opposed to a, this is the right next decision. And so because we had talked through that once, you know, when I told him that I was dating somebody, he didn't bat an eye. He didn't frown. He just, he immediately was a dad. Tell me about her. What's her name? What's where she from? Like the, the things that you would hope for. And so I anticipated it being really tense and it wasn't, and I was so grateful. And in his, his fathering in that moment was wonderful. Oh, that's awesome. So he, he would, wow. He would be able to attend the wedding. I mean, is that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one, one of my brothers is divorced and remarried and my dad was at his second wedding and is not cold or distant towards his new daughter-in-law. And, you know, so he's not a kind of a myopic viewpoint person.

There's a richness and a depth to his understanding of family and loving. And he's certainly not a perfect dad, but he's not cutting people off because they have stepped outside of his theological understanding of things. I mean, that's a great balance between having clear and passionate doctrinal conviction, and it also complementing that with pastoral compassion and sensitivity. And I think that's the balance that most pastors are trying to pursue. Sometimes it's not easy. Before we're coming up on an hour, but I want to at least briefly talk about your latest book. It's on curiosity, or what's the title of it again?

Yeah, it's called The Curious Christian. The Curious Christian, yeah. Tell us, what's the elevator pitch on that book? So the subtitle is How Discovering Wonder Enriches every part of life. And it just, it stemmed from my observation that most people as life goes on live shrunken down lives, less discovering, less wonder, less excitement. And that, that, that defines their spiritual life, how they, how they view and encounter

God, it did a, how they are a neighbor, how they view and encounter other people, places, whatever. And so it's basically trying to look from different angles at how an intentional, purposeful curiosity is a thing that breathes life into every relationship we have, relationship with God, relationship with culture, relationship with the arts and literature and other people and in marriage and in parenting and so forth with the idea that especially based on the fact that God is infinite. We will never stop discovering things about God. And if that's not a call to be more curious, I don't really know what is. To be uncurious is to say, I have discovered everything I need to know about life. And that just sounds depressing to me.

But we default to it because curiosity can be hard work. So it's looking at that, trying to look at it from different angles, applying to different parts of life, dwell a little bit on the richness and magnitude of who God is, all in about, I don't know, 160 pages or so. That's awesome. And you're working on, are you allowed to talk about the book you're working on now? Yeah, so my fourth book doesn't have a title yet, but I'm working hard on it to try to hit my deadlines. It's a book about happiness and expectations. So leaning heavily on Ecclesiastes

to help find sort of a biblical realism on what is it right to expect of this life? Because there's so much dream chasing and so much idealism and high aspirations, and there's so much disappointment and depression and frustration. And then you have eternal promises of God, and then you have verses that say things like, in this life, you will have trouble. So what is it fair to expect of this life? What does happiness look like in this life, you will have trouble. So what is it fair to expect of this life? What does happiness look like in this life? Because, because I do think God wants us to be happy, but I don't think that means what, what it's often been claimed where happiness is, you know, an infusion of

riches and getting whatever we want and things like that. So what is, what is a realistic expectation for happiness in these years we have on earth. Awesome. Dude, thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is long overdue. I so appreciate your voice from a distance. I wish we lived closer together. I really enjoyed the times we get to hang out. But yeah, thanks so much for your authenticity, your honesty, and just for pursuing Christianity in such a real and raw manner.

So thanks for being on Theology in the Raw, man. Absolutely. I've loved it. Thank you. Cool. Take care. Thanks for listening to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you want to support the show, if you were encouraged, challenged, blessed, consternated by this episode or other episodes that you have heard on Theology in the Raw,

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