Theology in the Raw - 776: #776 - Effective Communication, the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and Politics: Dr. Heather Thompson Day

Episode Date: January 28, 2020

Heather is a communications professor at Colorado Christian University and a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church. Her and Preston talk a lot about her church, communication, politics, college students, and much more. Connect with Dr. Heather Thompson Day Twitter | Instagram | Blog\Facebook | Latest book: Confessions of a Christian Wife Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. A couple of quick announcements before we jump in. First of all, the Theology in the Raw Israel trip, October 11th through the 21st of 2020. If you would like to go on this trip, the cost is $2,900. It's first come, first serve. If you want to go on the trip or you want to inquire about the trip, you can email chris at PrestonSprinkle.com. That's C-H-R you can email chris at prestonsprinkle.com. That's chris at prestonsprinkle.com. Again, it's first come first serve. The first 40 people who send

in their a hundred dollars to secure their spot are going and spots are filling up pretty quickly. So if you would like to go on an amazing theology in the raw Israel trip, my brother-in-law, Benjamin Foreman, Dr. Benjamin Foreman is going to be leading the trip. My brother-in-law, Benjamin Foreman, Dr. Benjamin Foreman is going to be leading the trip. He's been living in Israel for 15 years. He's been touring people around the land more than Moses has. That's actually true because Moses never even got into the land.

But anyway, he maybe as much as Joshua has. Yeah, he's been touring people around the land of Israel longer than Joshua did. I don't know if that's true. It just sounds kind of cool. Anyway, if you want to inquire about the trip, chris at PrestonSprinkle.com. Again, the dates are October 11th through the 21st. Also, my spring speaking schedule is very stacked. So let me just read off a few dates here. February 9th and 10th, I will be in Orange County, February 9th and 10th, Orange County,

two different churches that I'm blanking on the first church. No, let me just look it up here. I will be at Branches Church, Huntington Beach. That's on the evening session. That's February 9th. And then the all day leaders session on the 10th, I will be at rock Harbor church in orange County, uh,

March 5th and six, I will be in Greeley, Colorado. That's Northern Colorado and Greeley, uh, March 10th and 11th. I will be in Nashville, uh,

evening event on the 10th and an all day event on the 11th, March 15th. I will be in Nashville, uh, evening event on the 10th and an all day event on the 11th, March 15th. I will be in Seattle, Washington for an evening event, April 30th. I will be in Philadelphia and, uh, April 30th and May 1st in Philadelphia. And there's a few other events that are scattered throughout there. If you want to register, you have to go to centerforfaith.com and register for these events. And again, they, some of them do sell out. So if you do want to attend one or some, or all of these events, come be a, like a groupie or whatever, and just travel the country with me and talk about sexuality and gender. That'd be awesome. If you want to attend, you can go to centerforfaith.com

and just go to the events page and you can look at more details about the events and also register. My guest for today is Dr. Heather Thompson Day. Heather Thompson Day is the author of six books, including Life After Eden and the most recent book, which is Confessions of a Christian Life. She's also written How to Feed the Mediavor, Cracked Glasses, and a few other books. You can check her out at heatherthompsonday.com. Um, Heather Thompson Day is a professor of communications at Colorado Christian, uh, college in, uh, in Colorado. Imagine that. Um, and she, so I met Heather. I mean, met, I came across Heather's voice on Twitter. I just kept noticing her tweeting such awesome and intriguing and challenging things.

I just loved the way she thinks according to Twitter. So I just reached out and said, Heather, would you like to be on Theology in a Raw? I don't, I know hardly anything about you, but you have a really interesting voice. And I looked up her bio and saw that she was like a scholar and a communications professor and has written books and does a lot of speaking. So I had a fantastic time talking to Heather Thompson Day. And I am so excited for you to get to know her if you don't know her already. So please welcome to the show for the first time, Dr. Heather Thompson-Day.

okay i am here with um i'm gonna say uh acquaintance slash new friend we'll see how this goes because what's that careful what you say i may unfollow you oh no please don't so i'm here with uh heather uh heather thompson day um and i so I first just noticed you on Twitter. And I try not to pay too close attention to Twitter. In fact, I just literally deleted it off my phone because I was probably on it too much. But I just was so impressed and impacted and challenged by some of the tweets you're doing and stuff and did a little research into who you were

and some of the things you're working on that you work with college students. I'm like, man, I really want to have Heather on the show. So beyond that, I really don't know what I'm getting myself into. So what happens, right? Why don't we start off, just give us a brief overview of who you are, your story, and maybe some things you're passionate about. I'm sure that will lead us to many different possible directions to go. Yeah. So I am a communication professor at Colorado Christian University. My whole life, at like six or seven years old, if you were to read my diary, you would read entry after entry after entry about Barbara Walters. I was obsessed with Barbara Walters. I wanted to be her because I watched a lot of 2020. And when I turned like 17 years old,

I created this really impressive resume filled with all of my accomplishments, which was nothing because I was 17 years old. But I brought it to the biggest radio station in Southwest Michigan, and I asked them to give me a job. And through luck or coincidence, they actually gave me one. And I was a reporter for them. And I really I worked in radio journalism for about five years, I ended up having my own radio show that I did with them for about five years. And I really, I worked in radio journalism for about five years. I ended up having my own radio show that I did with them for about five years. And then I took a general level communication course and it, it changed my life. Communication is essentially the study of like, how do we build relationships? How do we build relationships interpersonally? How do we build relationships

from a corporation to a target audience? How do we build relationships online? How do I build relationships for my church? So for me, I love people. I have not met a person that I didn't learn to like, right? Because the more we know about people, the more likely we are to like them anyway. So I love people. And so getting into this field of communication has been just probably the best thing outside of faith that ever happened to me. Cause I feel like I found, I found my space, um, where I can make a contribution. I think that matters. Were you raised in a Christian home or? I was raised in a Christian home. My dad was an evangelist. So my dad was on Broadway. He was in Jesus Christ, superstar and hair, and somebody left a religious writing in his taxi cab in New

York. And he read it and ended up going to seminary and had this huge conversion experience. And so I grew up, I always tell people, I grew up in a van. I traveled all around the country and internationally with my dad, he would take Bible stories and make them into musicals, which sounds weird, but it was really, he's really talented. So it was really good. And so I kind of, I grew up in this space of getting to constantly be in like genuine, you know, just watching people really, really experienced that. I've, I've also been in spaces where people pretend like they're experiencing, right. But I got to, I grew up in this environment. And so it's, I guess it's not surprising that I want to serve it. Yeah. What, what,

what kind of denominational background or subculture are you part of or were part of? My background is Seventh-day Adventist, which nobody ever knows what that is. So essentially we're like Jews who believe in Jesus. That's the best because the only, the difference between, we're still evangelical Christians, but the only difference is that Adventists keep a Saturday Sabbath.

Okay. And they still don't eat pork. Really? Which probably sounds weird. That's it? Wow. Okay. Just pork though?

Not all the dietary laws? No, just pork. They just still don't eat pork. Oh, well, and shrimp and stuff. Yeah. The unclean foods. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. Well, there's a, my brother-in-law lives in Israel. He's been there for almost 15 years. Um, and I, there's a church here in town, a good pastor friend of mine, who's part of a, a messianic, um, congregation. Like, like it'd be very much that like, like it's a Christian congregation that pretty much observes the Jewish calendar, the holidays, dietary laws and everything. Yeah, so that's, yeah, I'm fairly familiar with that. That's interesting. I never heard the Seventh-day Adventist thing put in that kind of terms,

like Jews who believe in Jesus almost. That's the best way I explain it to people because everybody knows who the Jews are. Right, yeah. Right? And that is honestly the two the probably biggest fundamental difference well in the dietary one is like there's tons of adventists who probably eat pork right like we don't talk about it it's not in a potluck but they may eat it um but adventists the big thing is we keep a saturday saturday so you've

been part of that tradition and still are like that's that's where you're raised and they're still that is where i was raised my husband is still part of it. That is where I was raised. My husband is a pastor. That is the church that I serve. Yeah. But I do kind of like interdenominational speaking. My university I'm at is non-denominational. Was Prince Adventist? Oh my goodness. I cannot believe you know this. He was, right? This is like a thing. This is a thing that Adventists say when we're, okay barry black the senate chaplain oh yeah yeah he's an avidest ben carson he actually endorsed some of my dad's books he's an avidest so we don't know ben carson was wow yeah ben carson yeah so we have some

famous avidest but yeah prince i remember we used to talk about that a lot okay so i live in boise idaho and next to boise it's either in Meridian or Nampa along the freeway. There's this massive warehouse that says Adventist publishing something. Pacific Press? What is it? Pacific Press. Yes. Yeah.

That's where my last book came from. So it's based, I think it's based here in Boise, Idaho. It is. That's crazy. Because I mean, I don it's based is the way I think it's based here in Boise, Idaho. It is. That's crazy. Cause I mean, I don't see a lot of Adventist churches here necessarily. Maybe I just don't know them, but I just, I, every time I drive by, I'm like, that's a massive publishing house for a denomination. It's not that large. You know, I'm like, wow.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. It's not big in the United States. It is huge overseas. North America is probably their smallest, the smallest place where their denomination comes from, but like, like Jamaica, like that's almost the whole country is Adventist. So there's all these pockets of countries that are predominant, like we're the president of that country as a Seventh-day Adventist. And it's just a weird thing that only Adventists know. So yeah. Where, I mean, I don't mind. I kind of, I got tons of questions

now. So where was the denomination movement? Where did it start from? What did it grow out of? Like, did it start in America or overseas somewhere? It started in the United States out of the Methodist movement. Oh, okay. So it has kind of a, like a Wesleyan-ish. It was a Methodist movement, yeah.

And there was this lady named Ellen White and she had a vision and then they started doing okay um I don't know they so you guys just did missions really well then right if it's such a global strong stronger global presence or absolutely so they're it's funny that you're talking to me because I'm probably one of the only Adventists that knows all this information who didn't go to seminary um but yeah they have huge, I think it's the number one parochial school system outside of Catholicism. Oh, wow. So the biggest Christian school network is Seventh-day Adventist schools. So there's a ton of, and then they're huge, yeah, in overseas mission work.

Okay. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's cool. All right. and oversee mission work. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's cool. All right. So here you are, you, you, um, you, you went on in school to do several degrees in communications, right? Or what was your, what was your, tell me your educational journey. Yeah. So my bachelor's degree, I double majored. I did, um, communication and journalism because I originally wanted to be a journalist

until I took a communication class. And then I did my master's interdisciplinary with communication with a cognate in psychology, which a lot of communication theories come from psychology anyway. And then I did my PhD in higher education with a cognate in communication. Wow. And we say communications primarily speaking or writing or both, or is that a, is that even a valid question? Communication is everything. It's making meaning out of relationships and conversation. There's nonverbal communication. Like that's an entire course that you would have to take if you do a communication degree. There's writing for communication outlets. There's social media as a part of the communication program.

So I did all of it. I think my background more so is in communication theory. But at the university I'm at right now, I'm the anchor of their public speaking program. So I help students that want to be professional speakers. And they're building a huge speaking center here. And so that's what I'm here to do. So your primary, you would say, area that you're focusing on is speaking. Here, yes. But as far as like my, the only reason I'm doing that is because I do a ton of speaking, right? So, but my academic background is much more in communication theory.

Okay. What are some, I mean, this can be kind of a broad question, but what are some like, like if you were on your deathbed and you wanted to share, you have five more minutes to live and there's a bunch of people around your bed that want to know like, Heather, all right, give us the most important things we need to understand when

it comes to communication. What would be some of those big picture things from somebody who's a specialist? I mean, I speak a lot too, but I've never like, I don't know what I'm doing. I just get up there and start talking. Right. And see what works. Here's the best, number one thing I will tell you. I think this is the most important thing in communication is that it's always about the listener. We think about communication and we think it's about the person who's talking.

It's not. It's about paying attention to the person who's listening and crafting a message geared off of that person. So what we say in communication is most people try to bring a person to a message. Communicators bring a message to a person. So the entire goal is how do I, okay, if I was to hand out a survey to most people and say, do you think that you're a competent communicator? The average person would say, absolutely. I talk every day. Most of us are totally incompetent when it comes to communication. It's because of this one principle. Most of us think that communication is about me having a message and I just have to say it, but it's not. It's about how do I say this in a way that you will actually understand it? And let's take it a step further. If we're looking at persuasion or

rhetoric, how do I say it in a way that actually changes how you see things? rhetoric. How do I say it in a way that actually changes how you see things? Right? Are you familiar with Jonathan Haidt, psychologist? He wrote a book. My podcast listeners are going to either roll their eyes, not roll their eyes, but I mean, I talk about him all the time because I'm looking around at my bookshelf right now. His book, The Righteous Mind, Why Good People Disagree on Politics and Religion is so brilliant. It's not, I wouldn't say it's, well, it's not technically about communication, but it's about, well, it kind of is though. I mean, it's about why would somebody possibly change their mind on something? Why are good people who give good arguments so stuck in

their ways? And even if they hear a good argument that counters their view, what is, what is going on psychologically that prevents them from receiving that and what could happen to where, you know, in their psyche that would allow them to receive it. And he basically says that like 90% of why people believe what they do has to do with intuition and, and what's going on in the heart, not just rational reasoning. So people think that, oh, if I just destroy the argument, if I just give a better argument, they're going to believe it. And he's like, 90% of why people believe stuff is not just pure rational reasoning. It's not like they're just, you know, laying out the arguments and picking the best one.

So if all you do is speak to the mind, it's not going to get in. But if you speak, if you move their heart, that's going to cause them to see your perspective a little better. So he talks about things like even, you know, when you're in a conversation across political lines, you know, where sparks are going to fly, if you can actually honor the other person and, and say, you know what, that's a good point. I could see, I could see where, why you would vote for Donald Trump. And, you know, he, you could be like the most anti-Trump person in the world. But if he said, you know what, yeah, he's done some, yeah, he's done some good things, you know, the economy is going well and, and he has done this, that, and I think he's misunderstood. And I could see

your point of view, you know, and, and, but you know, the one thing that, um, the one thing that kind of bothers me is maybe, you know, all I have to say, like, like meeting someone where they're at and humanizing them. And then the guard kind of comes down. And anyway, is any of this like, absolutely. Yeah. I teach persuasion. This is something we talk about all the time. We call it foot in the door. And essentially what it is, is you're never going to get through somebody's closed door. You have to figure out how do I get one foot inside your door? So the example I give is if somebody comes to my office right now and it's a stranger and they say to me, Heather, can you walk me across campus to the bookstore? I'm going to say, sir, no, I do not

know you. I am not walking you across campus to the bookstore. If he says, hey, could you just walk me down to the end of the office and put me in the right direction? Now I might do that, right? So now I'm walking him down to the end of the office and then he says, hey, could you just take me a little bit further? I'm still not quite sure where I'm going. And so I walk him a little bit further, and then we keep doing this back and forth. Next thing I know, I'm at the bookstore. I never intended to walk this man to the bookstore, right? But if you can get a foot in the door, you can change everything. And there's another theory, it's called a social judgment theory. And essentially what it says is we never move more than two spaces

outside of our current position. So the goal in communication when it comes to persuasion isn't to take somebody from one anchor point, I support Donald Trump, to he is a horrible human being, right? Like that is never going to happen. But what you can do is move them two steps outside of I support Donald Trump. And so we look for arguments that are two steps outside of that anchor point, like you just said. So we start saying things like, you know, I can see why you would support him. But do you think that do you believe that he's moral? Do you think he's made some good moral choices? And then as they start talking through that, you can move them two steps outside, and then just leave them because our judgments are made

socially. No, you're never going to convert somebody from totally believing something to totally disagreeing with it overnight. It's a social process and it takes time. And we have to have commitment to that journey with people in relationships. That's fascinating. So, so like say in a sermon or a talk where you may only have 45 minutes, an hour with these people, or let's just, let's not say a sermon at a church context, because there you do have the longevity, but say you come in, you give a talk, you're gone. Are you saying that your goal should just be move those two steps? So don't try to convince them that two plus two equals four, like no matter how, no matter how strongly you believe in this truth that you want them to believe, it would be a win if you just move them a couple steps toward that direction rather than convincing them of it. Is that what you're saying?

I fundamentally believe this. And again, I think this is why a lot of churches are struggling. And this is why the numbers are declining in North America. We keep hitting people with our truths. I say this to my students too, because is there truth? Absolutely. But there's also a spirit of truth. And am I approaching you in the spirit of truth and a spirit of love as a person in a relationship? That should come into context in this conversation, especially when we're talking about such an important topic. 80% of Christians believe in a higher power. When I go around, I train church pastors, when they tell me, yeah, but there's nothing we can do. This generation just isn't holy. I'm like, bro,

80% of Americans believe in a higher power. 82% of people say they'd go to church if somebody just invited them. 82% of people. You want to know the problem? Only 2% of Christians ever invite somebody to church in a year. So we have these big gaps where there's several things going on. But one is we say we believe these things that I wonder how much we really believe in. If only 2% of us are actually inviting people into it. Cause I know if I hear an awesome Taylor Swift album, I am telling everybody.

If I go through a Chick-fil-A drive-thru, I'm telling everybody, but when it comes to my relationship with God, probably not. I'm not going to share that. There's something broken there, I think. Well, in true, genuine belief, I think, has to be lived out. Like, I don't know. I used to think if you just sign a doctrinal statement, you believe that. But unless your life is reflecting that, I wouldn't even say it's true belief. It might be cognitive assent or whatever, but it's not belief in the true biblical sense of belief.

I think belief is intertwined with action and living it out. I think that's what it is. I mean, I'm not a scholar, right? In the Hebrew, I believe that that's what the word says. To believe in the Greek, when it says like those who believe in him, it means to live by. Yeah. So the Hebrew emunah can be translated

faith or faithfulness. Faithfulness is more action oriented faith. We think faith is just nothing but, you know, believing mentally, but the Hebrew word doesn't even make that distinction. It's like total life commitment. And yeah, in fact, there's one guy argues that even the Greek word pistis is faith. Pisteo is to believe. Somebody argues that almost a better English translation would be like allegiance. Like it's not just faith in the English sense of English word sense of faith, but it's a total kind of commitment, which is issues in a life sort of response. So yeah, it's hard to read so much into a single word, but yeah, that definitely, when the biblical writers are talking about faith, it's not, it's not just this mental ascent that we moderns typically make it out to be.

Yeah. Which is, I think, important because we talk about Abraham's faithfulness was accounted unto him as righteousness. Right. So this is an important conversation that I think we do need to have with people to understand what does this really mean and what does it mean to live by this? Right. Well,

it's also why we get tripped up over like Romans and James, you know, Romans is, you know, all justification, my faith, faith, not works.

And James is like, works, works, not just faith. And we think, Oh, contradiction, or they don't like each other.

It's like, they're, they're actually not talking about two totally different things you know um right yeah so how long you've been teaching at Colorado Christian I came here six months ago oh you just got there I just got here I'm a baby did you just finish your PhD or you've been doing something else between your PhD I finished my PhD no I've been teaching for about 10 years. Oh. So I taught at a secular community college first, and then I went to Andrews University, and now I'm here. Andrews is Seventh-day Adventist, right? Yes, it is. It's in Berrien Springs, Michigan. Very cool. And Colorado Christian, is it interdenominational or? It's interdenominational.

Oh, yeah. How are the students? All different faith. So you're, you're in the live of college students. You've been doing, you've been there for a while. Describe to us this college generation. So I mean, this would be kind of the older Gen Z, like the first generation of people going to college that were raised kind of with the internet. That's all they've known is internet, social media and everything. How would you, are you hopeful for college students? Are you discouraged a bit of both or? I'm so hopeful.

Yeah. I've never, I feel like there is totally an anointing over this generation. There's so much hope and excitement that I have when I see them. When people say like one of the criticisms that this generation will say, that they're so, like, they're rude or they're not respectful or they don't value authority. And these things may be true. However, if we can take young people like this

who believe that they inherently have a voice and that what they say matters, is that not a powerful tool? That when I watch and take the politics out of it, when I watched these young people from Stone Marjorie Douglas School on the Senate floor, challenging on national television, their senators about gun reform, my mind was blown. I was like, well, I mean, this, these are 18 year old kids looking at the people who write their laws and saying this needs to change. Who do you think Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were? That is a boldness of belief in an idea that says like, this is greater than me. This is greater than what can happen to me. I just believe this in my voice matters. We

have an entire generation of people that believe that their voice matters. I say, awesome. Yeah, that's good. And I feel like, because I've worked with college students for a while, not in the last four years, but prior to that, I was a college professor for 10, 12 years.

And I was, you know, some of the things that with like, so I'm a Gen Xer, so like Gen X or even boomers, it's almost like you have to work so hard to convince them to be like compassionate or to care for the poor or even to question some political allegiances that we grew up with or whatever. But younger people, it's just, it comes second nature. Like I don't have to convince them to be compassionate for the,

those who are broken and marginalized. Like it just comes so naturally. And there's other things, challenges that I think we have to work on, but, um, it's so refreshing. I'm so refreshing to like, they're, they're hungering to want to like really live this out and have a meaningful Christian life and the kind of Sunday only Christianity they're just not into at all. Um, yeah. Yeah. And even if they're not Christians, right. Right. Like that's important. That's a distinction to make. Like these are this is a generation of people. It's the most diverse generation. Yeah. It's also, interestingly enough, the most depressed generation. This generation scores 10 points lonelier than even senior citizens. So we have a generation that knows what it feels like to feel broken. And so I think that's created a sense of empathy. Is that because of social media? I mean, I know that's the kind of the big assumption, but is that, has that been proven that social media is kind of causing the anxiety,

depression, loneliness, lack of real community or. There is, I mean, yeah, we know that social media absolutely affects social comparison, which then increases mental health disorders. Okay. There's absolutely a connection. But just think social media, you know, Simon Sinek talks about this a lot. Social media is an addiction. And ask any addict how their relationships are.

And it's always going to be poor because addiction overrides your brain's ability to produce oxytocin, which is the connection hormone. Addiction is an override of dopamine in the brain. So it doesn't matter what your addiction is. It doesn't matter if it's porn. It doesn't matter if it's video games. It doesn't matter if it's social media. If I'm an addict, it is affecting my brain chemically in a certain way. And it's blocking me from experiencing connection. So it's, oh, that's okay. So it's not social media per se. It's the fact that most teenagers, if we can say more than 50% are addicted to social media on some level.

It's the fact that it's the addiction component that's screwing things up. Yeah. Simon Sinek says this. If the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is take a shot of alcohol, you are an alcoholic. Nobody's questioning that. If the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is take a shot of alcohol, you are an alcoholic. Nobody's questioning that. If the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is check your phone, what are you? If you have to go from room to room with your phone, if you can't pee without putting your phone down, there's something going on neurologically. Yeah.

So the more I'm aware of it, that's why for me on my Sabbath, I fast from social media I don't get on. That is me trying to detox my brain from I fast from social media. I don't get on. That is me trying to detox my brain from this need to constantly be in the know. Wow. It's so good. And convicting. I just deleted Twitter off my phone this morning. Cause I was like, you know, I can just, it's that habit. It's like, sometimes I'll be at a stoplight. I'll go for my phone. I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. Can I sit here in the now for like 12 seconds without, and for me, it is the information.

It's being in the know. It's not even like the, I don't really play into the outrage culture, you know, scroll stuff and just get furious or whatever, but it's more like, you know, checking news or what's going on, that something happened, that I ran fire on a missile. But even that, even if the motivation is mildly pure, let's just say, I just want to know what's going on or whatever, that, especially for me, I'm kind of an information junkie. So, I mean, that is going to be where I'm going to fail and be addicted to that. Yeah, you're describing my biggest problem. Twitter is my, that is my app. That is my favorite app of all the social media apps.

And for those reasons, I love that I can see the news and then not only just see what's happening, but see in real time people's responses to what's happening. I love understanding how we're tackling issues as a culture, I love it. Because you're interested in people. Me too, I love to see, yeah, how people react to stuff. And it, yeah, it's entertaining.

But next thing I know, the light's green and people are honking at me. I'm like, why can't I just be here and now? Yeah. I can't tell you how many times I sit in my driveway when I get home. Yeah. And you're just going to check for a second. It's crazy. It's like a time vortex.

Yes. That's horrible for us. Good for you for deleting it. Well, we'll see how it's like a time vortex yes yeah that's horrible for us good for you for deleting it well we'll see how it goes yeah i've done it i think what so i deleted uh facebook from my phone um a couple years ago and i don't even miss it so i facebook doesn't really affect me even instagram i have to remind myself to post on instagram or even check it me too but with twitter for something so what is it with twitter then I mean is it just you want to know what it is for me I have made real relationships on Twitter me too so I feel like what other app gives you like Facebook's like my cousins you know I mean like I'm seeing all the drama that's

going on with my family Instagram I'm just I'm not an artsy person and so it's not my thing. I am trying to do it because I have another book coming out and I need to build my Instagram, but Twitter comes naturally for me to sit and have thought. And now that I, there's this app Hootsuite, I'm sure you already know about it, but for your listeners that I can just auto load all of my ideas as I have them and let them come out over the next couple of weeks. And I don't even have to think about it anymore. I love it. Well, I didn't even know about that. That's Hootsuite. Hootsuite can do that? Oh, you don't know. Look, I taught you something. Yeah. Hootsuite. It's an app. And so, well, this is really fascinating. It will like go through all of your social media data and put out the tweet at the best time for your platform.

Wow. Yes. How does it know that? It's freaky. Yeah. It goes through all your tweets and like which ones were most successful. And so they, it tries to time it according to when most people will be online to see it. So wait, it tweets old tweets that you've done or? No, no, no. So when I have, I have tons of thoughts and I just write them into a notes on my phone and then I put those notes into Hootsuite and then I put auto load on the Hootsuite and it will like have, so sometimes I'll say something and people think I'm talking about something right then, but it's actually from two weeks ago that I had this thought and I put it in my Hootsuite and it just, that was the time that it came out.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So it's given me my life back. I probably, oh, okay. Yeah. That's why. Okay.

So it is, it could be a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I might look into it. I will see. It's great. Well, what, um, uh, politically, what, where would you describe yourself?

Are you allowed to talk about that? I don't know. I'm kind of, yeah, I have always been, I mean, you know, I'm from an evangelical Christian community. I've, I've, I have always voted pretty much based on abortion. Okay. Every election until this last one. So I have always identified, I think, as a Republican.

I would identify myself right now as an independent. Okay. Yeah. That's about where I'd be, I think. I was much more staunch Republican growing up. And then I started to just kind of read the Bible. Right. I don't know if Jesus would resonate with a lot of things going on here. Yeah, the pro-life thing still is a really big one to me.

I just, yeah, that's, yeah, really big. But yeah, the Trump fiasco is, it's kind of interesting. So I have more of like Anabaptist, Mennonite, not my tradition at all, but I would resonate with that view of kind of church so i have more of like um anabaptist mennonite um not not not my tradition at all but i i would resonate with that view of kind of church and state like a real radical separation between um secular politics and the church um so for me it's almost like i kind of sit back with my popcorn watching babylon you know yeah fight against each other you know and and um Fight against each other, you know, and yeah, I almost think as much as I think Trump has way more problems and things he's doing that are that's good. And again, I'm not really into politics. I don't want to speak above my pay grade. But I almost think that the radical left just nonstop criticism of anything he does is actually going to have a reverse effect. I think it,

I think more and more people are seeing like, well, just because he sneezes doesn't mean it's evil, you know, or just because there's an earthquake in China doesn't mean Trump caused it. You know, it's like the constantly just a hundred percent negative, the guy can do nothing right. I think is actually might have a reverse effect and create a little more sympathy and tip the scales to have him get voted in again I mean I am so curious to see what happens yeah for this next election I am too yeah yeah I don't know politics I just I just it feels like it's gotten so and maybe it's always been like this I don't know. Politics. I just, I just, it feels like it's gotten so, and maybe it's always been like this. I don't know, but so excessively partisan where I'm like, man, I don't know.

There's, I see good in both sides and bad in both sides. Like, can we just like really hash out these, these discussions and not just do everything we can to get into power, get our person into power and stuff. And I don't know, it's just, I look at it for a little bit and it's like a car accident and I'm like, Oh, it's just kind of icky but something has definitely happened i think in the last four years where it's i speak far more for the group that i'm representing than my actual beliefs i think that something strange is going on where we're digging our heels in based on the choices perhaps that we made in 2016 rather than actually stepping back it's probably cognitive dissonance a little

bit too i think where are students at uh politically i mean it seems like they're much more liberal but not necessarily are they or um no yeah this uh statistically the republican party is going to have to do something different but i I think they will. I think they're going to keep morphing as all of culture keeps morphing. They're going to have to. So, yeah, students are definitely probably the most liberal that they've ever been. I can't remember the exact statistic, but it's something like 70 to 80 percent of this generation identifies more as a Democrat. Really? Yeah, for young adults. Well, what would that mean in 10 years? I mean, or even five years? I mean, it seems like...

Well, here's the thing. Like, I have students that probably, because this is an evangelical institution that I work for, that identify as Republican, but their idea of what that means is different, I think, than what we see on TV. And so I'm excited for their future and for the future of the Republican Party and what it can be when young people get to have more

of an ownership of it. I was in a fascinating conversation a couple of nights ago in our small group with a bunch of teenagers who are part of our small group. And we talked about abortion. We threw out abortion, just like, hey, what do you guys think about this and um they all were pretty passionately pro-life but they talked way more about the complex socioeconomic scenarios that would lead somebody to abortion um they talked about the shame that often covers somebody that might lead them to hiding an abortion and stuff like they were so more in tune with the complexity of it. I was, I was impressed. I mean, first of all, so hopeful and impressed

because like, man, you didn't just give a flat answer. Like you, you understood the complexity of it all while still being pro-life, you know? And yeah. And I think those types of, I mean, as we talked about with communication, those types of nuanced approaches are going to be far more received

than somebody other than a blank answer. Right. This, I spoke this summer, I went to Ohio, right? So I'm with a, I think it was like a Methodist retreat that I did for two weeks, evangelistic series there. And I had so, I mean, all of them were white Republican, essentially. I had so many 18 year old, 17-old kids come up to me and say,

I am so grateful that they brought a woman. I am so grateful that they brought a person of color to speak to us. And these are Republican young people. So I'm saying like their perception of what it means, I think is morphing for those that are still Republican. So I think it's just going to keep morphing and they'll find leaders that represent them. That's great. That's awesome.

Yeah, the ethnic diversity piece of younger people is another one that just gives me absolute hope. I don't have to do a lot of work to try to convince them that this is a good and beautiful and godly thing, you know, that just having a bunch of white people leading everything isn't a good thing. In fact, they challenge it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's totally interesting to watch. And yeah, I'm hopeful.

Yeah, that's cool. So you do a lot of speaking. What do you speak on? Like all kinds of different things? Or what are some main topics and maybe areas and people you speak to? I speak, I do a lot of communication seminars for pastors or church leaders. And then I do a ton of speaking for college students, typically about taking ownership of our faith, standing in the gaps that we see happening right now, religiously in our country. And I always put communication under, like, I'll never just go through scripture without adding communication context to what does this look like in the field that I'm a part of? Because I think that that helps make things relevant for this next generation. Okay.

Yeah. But I also do a ton of women's retreats too. I'm curious about speaking to pastors. I would love to hear your honest thoughts. Is that ever an issue? You being a woman or even a person of color, speaking to a bunch of pastors? Do they receive it well? Are they taking notes like, oh, I can really learn from this person? Or are they a little bit skeptical? You know what? I think the majority has... Here's why. I'm not a pastor. And

I think that's why it works. And I've had conversations like this with other females that are in ministry. Because I'm coming as a communication professional, they're pretty receptive of me as opposed to me having a seminary degree. I'm just a community. And I say this all the time. I am just a communications person who loves Jesus and loves the Bible. So it's non-threatening to them. Besides the moving people two steps in the right direction, rather than the whole distance, what are. What's like their number two, number three, big piece of advice specifically to pastors? Here's, I think, a big one. You can't do communication really, really effectively without knowing the person. Here's a fundamental rule. The message is always in the person, not in the message. So two people can say the exact same thing and have very different meaning

based on who I am and what my past communication patterns are. So that's why I just think so much of it. When we look at evangelism, like so much of evangelism and people don't always want to do this work. It's, it's a relational work. Cause I have to know who you are as a person to understand how to answer these, these questions that you're asking me. Here's, there's this great book. It's called, um, how God changes the brain. And it's written by two neuroscientists. And what they find in this book is that 90%, this is a communication thing, okay?

90% of the time, when I say the God, neurologically, I'm coming up with different pictures of who that God is. So when I say, and I say this to people and to pastors, when people say to you, I reject God, I don't believe in that. What if the God that they're rejecting you yourself also reject? And perhaps Jesus Christ himself would also reject. Like, what if we're arguing with people over a God that neither of us believe in? And let me talk to you about the God that I've met and I've experienced because most people, here's a small example. I had a friend, she's not religious at all. And we were having a conversation about God. And she was like, I just, I don't like this idea that there's this

man that demands my worship. She's like, that just makes me feel uncomfortable. And I said, but God is, God is not a man. God is love. And she said, I could worship love. That makes sense to me. Right. So, and so oftentimes we'll argue with people and miss one another over a word that somebody is using. And if we don't stop and have a conversation about, well, what is, what does your God look like? What does this look like to you? What does it mean? What do you think he would do? How would he think?

We can't get anywhere. So when you're speaking to an audience that you don't personally know, do you try to find out kind of the... Absolutely. Where they're coming from, their theological tradition, maybe even political bent or whatever and figure out... Absolutely. Yeah, you want to. I mean, obviously there's stuff just based on age demographic, there's going to be some consistencies that we have. And I hope most of us would change our talks based on the audience that we're presenting to. So I want to be a speaker. I don't want to, like I speak all the time, but I tell them, please give me time for small group. I can't, there's only so much, I can inspire you probably in a 30 minute message, but we're

not going to change each other's lives unless we sit down and have a real conversation. So please give time. I just had a call from California yesterday. I said, I need time to break down into small group and actually talk about what's really going on in each other's lives. What is God not doing for me? Not just what he is doing. What is he not doing for you? Where are you coming from in this disconnect that you're experiencing or this numbness that you're experiencing? To me, I have found for myself that these small group opportunities

after a presentation change the game. So do you break them up into small groups? Then do you go and listen in on each one? you, you break them up into small groups and then do you go and listen in on each one or what's your role with the small groups? You know, so for example, I did this at the last university I was at, we did this thing called gods in the basement and it was actually the student's idea. Okay. So I did not come up with this. They wanted to, they were like, we feel like we want to really enhance the spiritual environment here. I was like, great, I'll speak. This is what I do. They were like, we don't want you to speak. I was environment here. I was like, great, I'll speak. This is what I do. They were like, we don't want you to speak.

I was like, but this is what I do. You don't understand. It's going to be great. They're like, no, we don't want you. We just want to have a conversation about how we feel about what does dating look like? What is too far sexually to go with my boyfriend? What is God? We just want to look at each other and have a conversation with people who are trying

to walk the same walk that I'm walking. So what we did was we would meet in the basement. There's no sound system. There's no lights. There's no microphone. And we would just pose two discussion questions. They broke off into groups of like five or six. They would discuss the question. And then I would moderate where I'd come back and say, okay, you talk about that. Somebody from each group, tell me what you guys thought. When I tell you that 80% of these conversations ended in like the entire room, like sobbing, it was the most powerful experience and it wasn't centered around me. And that's what I really had to change how I view communication and how I view Christianity and faith. Like we need a new power movement for the church and a movement is not based on one person. It's not a movement

unless it can move without you. Man, I got to think about that. So, so I give, you know, all day seminars, 830 to 330. And I do build, there's Q&A time. And then like, I think three sections where I have people, I'll throw out a scenario, have them talk in small groups, like 10 minutes, and then they share their response or whatever. For one, it just breaks it up. I mean, I get sick of hearing myself talk. Who can listen to a talking head all day? But I do, I feel like those are typically turning points within the day. Like it's just something just feels so natural and real. And then they have a voice too. And sometimes it can become a little difficult if when they give a response, it's like a really not good one.

Like, here's a pastoral situation. Like, well, I would do this. And I'm like, don't do that. But you can open it to them. What do you guys think about what he just said? And then other people challenge each other's ideas in a space of love and safety. Yeah. I might.

I mean, this is on the air in front of thousands of people, but I mean, I might send you an email because I'm going to be in Greeley, Colorado, um, in March, giving an all day talk. I would love to pay for your register, everything. If you were interested in coming, but, but also like, I would love feedback, like just from a communication standpoint, like from a speech teacher, I will be there. Oh gosh, that'd be amazing. I mean, it's all in sexuality and gender, so very relevant to I'm sure stuff you're working with. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, I'll send you the info. Who's the audience? Who's the audience? Mainly pastors, church leaders. I get a decent amount of parents with like LGBT kids that come, but typically it's, it's, it's aimed at ministry leaders, primarily church, but also a lot of like campus ministries as well. And is it how do we handle these conversations? Yeah, kind of. It's basically, so I divided into kind of three areas, not consecutively, but relationships.

consecutively, but relationships. Just for those of us who aren't LGBTQ, how do we understand the relationship between the church and the LGBT community and kind of like, or just LGBT people, what are some things that a lot of straight people just don't get and need to get? Number two, we do a lot of theology. We talk a lot about theology, sexuality, gender, and then number three, ministry. We do ask, I get down to the nitty gritty questions like, how do you handle a membership policy, a doctoral statement, this, that. And so it's kind of just an A to Z overview of if you're in ministry, what should you know about this conversation in one day? That sounds fascinating and so necessary. Oh yeah, no, it's fun. I mean, I've been, I think this will be my maybe 30th one I've done.

So I've been doing it for a while, but I would love to get, yeah, I would love to get feedback from you. Like even like, hey, you went a little too long on a monologue here. Maybe you do another smaller or whatever. Yeah, I would love to hear what you, I'd love to hear your wisdom.

Yeah, just know that this generation is it used to be i i i think therefore i am right i feel most alive most at peace most fulfilled when i'm thinking and now it's i share therefore i am so i've had to totally change the way i do class because they can't just listen to me talk for an hour and 15 minutes i have to break it up yeah with what does this mean to you what does this look like where are we seeing this in our real lives and then giving them space not to just turn to a partner but then break it up with what does this mean to you? What does this look like? Where are we seeing this in our real lives? And then giving them space not to just turn to a partner, but then open it up to everybody.

Okay, what did you guys discuss? And of course, once I discuss it with a partner for the introvert person that's there, I feel more confident being able to share that with the rest of the group. And they will walk away remembering far more if they've talked. Is that a fact?

Yes, yes. If you do not, I wish I had this too. And I read this study and it was saying like, if you don't provide time for them to discuss the idea after you've shared it, they'll not remember the idea. They're like far less likely to remember the idea. So this is my bit. So, okay. One of my underlying passions has been, how do we do and be the church in a post-internet world? Because I think we're still using pre-internet models that are just outdated, really. The idea that somebody would go and either read a news report, listen to something, and not have any kind of space to respond is really out. That doesn't really exist anymore. So, why are we still doing monological sermons with

no avenue for people to be able to respond? So I'm not a pastor. Okay. I've been in ministry, different contexts and stuff. But if I were, I almost think it would be like a no brainer for me to have some space where the audience can respond. Maybe it's a, an evening Q and A session. Maybe it's a post-service dialogue. Maybe it's even texting in questions or something. It's just where people have, they feel like they have space to clarify, push back, ask a question, whatever. I am with you. I am totally with you. And I've learned too, that this, this generation is totally, it's a participatory culture. So I have to participate in whatever I'm experiencing.

So I've spoken so much less when I, when I hold a Vespers now, I have them speak. And do you know, it's changed. My husband's church, the average age is 65. We started doing a Saturday night service where I could invite my students to, I don't speak, they speak, they do the music, they do slam poetry, they do the welcome, they do a scripture, you want to know what happened? The average age of his church is 65. I thought we're going to get like five kids here. When I invited them to participate in the service, almost 100 people have been coming. Because when they are doing it, what do they do?

They tell their friends and then they post it online and they take videos of each other. And then more friends come the next month that we do it. It is like, I, this is my big thing for anybody who's listening to this in ministry. Step back. I think leadership isn't just about me being upfront.

It's about me figuring out how to empower other people to get up front. And you know, this like, did your faith not change when you had to take accountability and ownership of it in that way? For me, it changed everything. Yeah, absolutely. They need that experience. So church services where 99% of the people are just nothing but passive. How do we, I mean, I know, I know with mega churches, it'd be, it's,

it's harder. I know. But even, I don't know. I think if we see it as a need, not just a possibility, I think we would come up with some creative ways of, I mean, so, so the, so well in the talks I get, I guess it's not a big, it would be anywhere from like 200 to 350 or something like that. So, and with a topic like sexuality and gender, we do do some conversations live, but when it comes to questions, I've done live questions in the past and it actually doesn't go well. So I do, I've got a whole platform of where they can text in a question and then they, but they vote on the questions and the ones that get voted on the most get pushed to the

top. And so I'm addressing the questions on a screen in order of the ones they want me to address. But what's missed, as you know, you're probably kind of what you're thinking, like communication is like 90% body and eyebrows. But the one thing, a live Q&A where somebody has to stand up and ask a question on sexuality and gender, all the introverts are just not going to do anything. So the texting, and it So the, so the texting and it's anonymous. So it allows people, it allows people to say, Hey, I'm gay. How do I come out to somebody? You know, we're never going to obviously ask, um, in a large audience, but, um, but so even something like that, I don't know, like, like even a mega church or a large service, you could have

some kind of space where people could at least text in questions or something. If anything, you're just saying, I honor your voice, your question. I want to respond. Right. I mean. Yes. But even in a megachurch, can we not pause and say, talk about this to the person next to you? Right.

Yeah. Get up and move two rows and talk about it to that. I mean, when I do it with my students, I never just say, talk to the person next to you. I say, get up and go to the, if you're on the left side, you're going to get up and go to the right side and find somebody new and have a conversation with them. And that first question maybe is awkward, but by the time we do the second and the third, they are, they've made a new friend. And so this whole, if you change the entire experience, once I'm actually getting to meet and greet. We're social creatures, right? So we have to give them space to have that participatory experience.

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Especially with the younger generation. I mean, there's this, you know, I mean, you, you work for Barna. Yeah. There's a whole like exodus, right? Of all the younger people. So the way to keep them, uh, not just in church, but keep them in the faith is. Yeah. It's to invite them to have ownership of it. That's so good. I want to be sensitive to your time, but also we haven't talked about your books yet. Your latest book is Confessions of a Christian Wife, a look at relationships and faith. Give us the elevator pitch for that book and what's it all about? Yeah, I was tired of reading Instagram, social influencer Christians, whose biggest

problem was that they cussed once. And so I wanted to write an authentic look at what it looks like to be married, you know, and it's for me being married to a pastor. So what does this relationship look like? What are the real struggles that we've had without trying to put a pretty bow and face on it? No, this has been really hard and he sleeps on the couch and what, this is what's happening in this relationship. And, and just being honest, I just think there's so much space in Christianity for authenticity about what we're really struggling with. Awesome. And you've written a few other books too. Uh, tell me, tell me, I'm going to pull up your, Oh, okay. Uh, how to feed the media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media,

media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media, media Hover is brilliant. You guys really good job, right? A fork through the iPhone. That is awesome.

Life After Eden, Cracked Glasses. You've written how many books? Like half a dozen? Yeah, no. Yeah, I've written six. Okay, cool. And then you're working on one now that's going to come out next year. What's that?

What's that? Yes, I'm working on one right now. It's called It's Not Your Turn. And essentially, I'm working on one right now. It's called It's Not Your Turn. And essentially, I wrote it. It's funny how God redeems all of your like broken pieces, because I wrote this book about my experiences watching it be everybody else's turn do in this space? And I had to learn. And I only recently learned it, to be honest, to clap for other people when it's their turn and to not let jealousy destroy my prayers because they hinder our prayers. When we are like having all this resentment and dislike and trying to tear down somebody else's ministry because it's doing better than mine. Like, let's just stop and learn to clap for other people. Maybe they're doing it differently than you. Praise God. We need people who do it differently than you.

Right? So it's called, it's not your turn walking with patience in a race toward instant. Do you find that that's way more easier with social media? It's so much easier to see other people's ministries and criticize. Is that exacerbating? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's so much easier. Social media has totally changed social comparison. It used to be that I compare myself to my neighbors and their tacky lawn ornaments. Now I compare myself to this guy I went to sixth grade with that I would never even know anymore. But right now he's in Kigali serving all these people. And I now feel like my ministry means nothing. Right? So there's this whole level of constant broadcast of what other people are doing that

is awesome and wonderful and so much better than what i'm doing oh so good well heather is we're coming up close to an hour uh so where can people find you if they want to look more into your speaking um i mean well i'll just say it heatherthompsonday.com right yeah you can go to heatherthompsonday.com my favorite stop shop my favorite app is twitter you can find me on twitter at heather t day heather t day that's right okay and yes definitely follow heather on twitter uh she's awesome thank you i love i love your i love how you have the ability to just challenge like like you're not so like i don't see you as like in this tribe or that tribe like you just challenge people to think better and more Jesus-like. It's awesome.

So I appreciate you noticing that about me. Thank you. Oh, it's so good. So thanks so much for being on Theology Narah, Heather. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. All right. God bless. Thank you.