Theology in the Raw - 777: #777 - Kanye, White Evangelicalism, and Racial Reconciliation: Steve Patton

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

Preston is joined again by his friend Steve Patton to talk about the Kanye's conversion and white evangelicalism's response. And yes, Steve has some critical thoughts on the whole ordeal. Steve and Preston talk quite a bit about Kanye, then they banter around about the meaning of "white evangelicalism," then get sidetracked into a related conversation about racial reconciliation and what this should really look like. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm going to be in Orange County on February 9th and 10th doing a all-day leaders forum and also an evening seminar on LGBT plus related questions. March 5th and 6th, I'll be in Northern Colorado, March 10th and 11th. I'll be in Nashville, Tennessee, primarily for the barbecue, but I'm also doing a couple events there in Nashville, Tennessee. March 15th, I'll be in Nashville, Tennessee, primarily for the barbecue, but I'm also doing a couple events there in Nashville, Tennessee. March 15th, I'll be in Seattle, Washington, doing an intro to the LGBT plus conversation. April 30th, looks like we're going to Philadelphia. Cool. That just popped up. I don't actually arrange my schedule. So sometimes I'm just as surprised as you might be

about where I'm going so philadelphia looks i'm going to philly uh april 30th and may 1st and then oh cool i'm going to phoenix uh may 6th and 7th we'll be in phoenix and then september 23rd that's so far out september 23rd in michiana indiana is that a play michiana is that a place? Michiana? Is that a place? Michiana? Must be between Michigan and Indiana. And then, yeah, I'll be there for two days, September 23rd and September 24th. If you want to register for one of these events, you can go to centerforfaith.com, go to the events page and look at the details and register. That's centerforfaith.com. And yeah, you got to sign up sooner than later, especially for some of these

that are just right around the corner. Also there is still, um, well, I'm pre-recording this, so I hope they're still, but as far as, as far as I can tell, there is still some room for the Theology in the Raw Israel trip this October, um, 11th through the 21st, we're going to Israel. I'm going to be kind of co-leading the trip with my brother-in-law, Dr. Benjamin Foreman. He's amazing. He's been living in the land for like 15 years as a PhD in Old Testament, fluent in Hebrew. The dude's just absolutely legit. It will be a tour of Israel like no other. So if you want information on that, you can email chris at prestonsprinkle.com. That's C-H-R-I-S at prestonsprinkle.com. And just say, Hey, can you send me some info about the Israel trip? And she will send that to you. What else? Oh, you know what I did for the podcast, I finally got around to posting a whole, um, all the previous episodes,

not all the previous episodes, but like 200 previous episodes are now listed on iTunes. One thing that just drove me crazy, and I didn't even explore how to fix it until the other day, but, um, if you're on iTunes, it would only list like the last 20 episodes, and then there's nothing else after that. You can get an a link to the archives for every single podcast that I've done on my website. If you go to Preston sprinkle.com. And you go to the podcast link, there's there's a but the podcast tab, you there's a little link there that takes you to an another website that has archived every single podcast i've done okay like all 775 podcasts

however on itunes it goes as far back as november 28th 2016 at the time of recording so if you want to easily access those older episodes, and I was just scanning them. And some of these titles from like a couple years ago, I'm like, man, this must have been a really cool conversation. These are some good topics here. So maybe I'll go back and listen to it myself, because if it's been two years old, I probably forgot what I said anyway. So yeah, so anyway, so that's there and available if you want to go back and check out older episodes. If you want to support this show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and get access to premium content or, you know, content that's behind a paywall. For instance, this whole Israel trip that we're going on, I invited, um, I, I

posted an invitation to all my Patreon supporters, probably about three weeks before I opened it up to the general public. So yeah, so that's a little gratitude. My Patreon supporters, you know who you are out there. But also I post once a month, podcasts and blogs that are only for my Patreon supporters. So if you're interested in that, or if you just want to support my ministry, this program, the work that I do, then again, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and, uh, support for as little as five bucks a month. And seriously, those of you who are supporting, uh, just, uh, super, super grateful for you. I've so enjoyed getting to know you through that platform as best as we can. Uh, some of the conversations we have

on Patreon are really awesome. And you guys are just, um, yeah, you keep this podcast going. So on the show today is, uh, my friend Steve Patton. He's, uh, on for the second time. In fact, he was on the episode, uh, number 614. If you want to listen to the first episode that I had Steve Patton on That's episode number 614 And now you can get to it through Your iTunes Podcast app So Steve

I told the story in our discussion But long story short I was Challenged to have a conversation about Kanye West and white evangelicalism. And Steve caught wind that I was exploring that conversation. And he said, hey, bro, I got lots of thoughts on that. So that's why he's on the show.

He's going to lead us in a conversation about Kanye West and white evangelicalism. It was a fascinating conversation. I'm a little nervous because Steve had some great thoughts and he did not shrink back from giving those thoughts. And Steve has been a church planter, a pastor, a great thinker. He's active on social media. He's just a well thought out dude and an incredible preacher too, by the way. So please welcome to the show for the second time, my good friend, Steve Patton. Okay, I am back with my friend Steve Patton.

Steve, you've been on before at least once. I think just once maybe. Yeah, this is number two. This is number two. All right. So I got a message from a buddy of mine. I don't know if he wants me to say who it is publicly. But anyway, a buddy of mine texted me and said, dude, you got to talk about Kanye and white evangelicalism on your podcast.

And I was like, man, that's an interesting topic. But I'm like, I don't know if I feel prepared to talk about that. But I think I tweeted that a buddy if i feel prepared to talk about that um but i think i tweeted that a buddy of mine wants wanting me to talk about just kind of see how people would react to it and a lot of people kind of jumped in said yeah uh i think that'd be a good one but you jumped in steve and said hey i got a lot of thoughts if you want to have a dialogue partner i said yes i do because i i'm not even sure and so just I'll tell my audience that, you know, I'm not exactly I haven't really thought too much about it. I haven't really followed the conversation too much.

I mean, obviously, I know, you know, he had this conversion experience and pretty seems pretty radical, seems from the little I've read, super really genuine. And and yeah, I do have seen a lot of people kind of now clamoring to sink their claws into Kanye. And that's about it. That's about all I know. So I don't even know if I have strong opinions about anything. So I'm here with my buddy, Steve, and I'm just going to learn. So, Steve, why don't you, you can set this up however you want. If you want to give a background, however far back you feel like you need to go to get us up to speed.

Why don't you just go for it, man? Yeah. So, I mean, Kanye and, you know, white evangelicalism and this this this weird marriage that I feel, on one hand, I feel afraid. I feel afraid. I feel afraid for the church. I feel afraid for Kanye. I feel afraid for the watching public. On another hand, I uh hopeful for kanye um and hopeful for the kingdom both kind of all at the same time but for all different reasons

yeah okay so that's a 30 000 foot level i got a bunch of keep going keep going yeah so all right so i mean i guess to really understand it right you got to go back you got to go back to the beginning right like kanye grew up black in chicago he went to church and if you listen to kanye's music there's always church references right i mean of course there was the, you know, the song he had, Jesus walks, which ironically was primarily written by a Muslim. You can do with that what you want, right? Ryan Fess primarily wrote Jesus walks and he's a devout Muslim.

So right there, there's already some, some interesting, interesting thoughts there. Right. But he had Jesus walks and there's always church and Jesus references in his music right like on um i think it was on diamonds from sierra leone where he was like uh the preachers said we need leaders right then my body got still like a paraplegic right uh said no he got uh no he got uh got baptized let the water wash over my caesar right so he's there's always been these references to to jesus and to church and then as as time went on you start especially after the death of his mom he's trying to grasp at stuff and then you hear him talking about um right now he don't need drugs

no more is just sex and religion no more drugs for me uh editedited version. Sex and religion is all I need. Right? There's always no church in the wild. Right? There's always been these religious overtones to his music. So then you fast forward the clock to last year. All these, you know, this, because Kanye is by and large despite in spite of all his other influences like edm and punk and uh uh electronic music like all these other influences kanye has

always tried to curate a black music experience in his music right um so when he started doing the sunday service stuff i was like like, well, yeah, duh. I mean, of course, now, let me back up. His involvement in specifically white evangelicalism started picking up a bit. Married Kim Kardashian. Rich Wilkerson did their wedding. So his feet, he started going to their church, right? So he started dipping his foot in that world even more.

And so when, and Kanye being the black music experience curator that he is, he starts doing gospel music. I mean, he said like five years ago that he was going to do a gospel album and eventually he was only going to do stuff for the church, right? And this was when he was, this is when he was still going to do stuff for the church right and this was when he was this when he was still you know out there so he does the uh sunday service ceremonies or services whatever you want to call them right they think he calls them service so we'll call them sunday services okay um not church stuff they were just they weren't church services but they were experiences you know they he wanted to use lighting to impact how people would feel and music and moods and all of that weaving all he's learned

about texture and and all of that into the experience to try to create some kind of i think he told letterman um on the show on netflix that he was trying to create some some healing experiences right and using the light and other textures and feels to influence how we feel to lead towards some healing. So he's doing those and I'm watching and I'm like, okay, Kanye, he's dabbling into the religious stuff now, like deeper. Okay. And so he does Coachella and out of Kanye's own mouth in the interview, I think it

was with Zane Lowe. He said it was, so he's already doing these, these services for like five, six months. And it was before the one he did on Coachella was the one where he felt like, you know, God was calling him into something and he wanted to give his life to Jesus. That's what he counts as his conversion experience. So even though he has this long history of church and gospel, he himself locates, would pinpoint his convert. He would say he wasn't converted then in his own words. would pinpoint his convert he would say he wasn't converted then in in his own words i mean in his words i think the way he described it is um living his life for god okay right so to me and you yeah we would count that as like you know when you're for real about your conversion yeah okay right not answering the altar call and doing the prayer or going your way but like saying i'm

gonna give my life to god right but he wasn't completely outside the church culture or even the church in general. He would just maybe look at his personal kind of conversion experience more recently. Yeah. Again, so he's church adjacent. You know what I'm saying? It's there, but he was never really like, you know, he would say stuff like, you know, we formed a new religion, sins unless it's there unless there's permission deception is the only telling deception is the only felony so don't sleep with nobody without telling me right like he would say stuff like that in his music so i would i would not say that he was in the in the church right but uh you know when he did the yeezus album um he was at like

rich wilkerson's church rich wilkerson even helped him craft his his stage thing which is a discussion for another day that we don't have to get into uh that that's that white evangelical white evangelicalism helped him plan that his own self-described blasphemous concert but we can maybe i don't know man you peaked my intro we can maybe come back to that, but I don't want to just say we're not going to go. I can't throw that grenade and leave it there. I keep going. But I guess I guess to speak to that, right? of the thing that as you look at what's happening now right since he's made this confession of faith and made this public confession of faith and put out two gospel albums you know since then and you

know dude's not been in his in his own words right he ain't been living it like that for less for a year right we're less than a year in to from Coachella you know last Easter okay so and a friend of mine was actually at that my co-worker of mine was actually at that show he was like man that show was incredible um and he's not a believer either he just thought it was a really good experience um but you know since since all of that and now he's you know he went on the he was already on the Trump train which we can talk about his whole thing now and how he's doing the stuff with Joel Osteen

and white evangelicalism helping crafting that concert it's because on the white evangelicalism side of things mirrored with Kanye, there's this need to wield power, right? It's this need to wield power and influence, right? Power, influence.

That's the name of the game. That's the chief currency in that world. It's not even necessarily money, right? It's power and influence, right? That's their, that's the idol. Power and influence is the idol of white evangelicalism. And I say that as a black man who was a survivor of white evangelicalism. It is the, right. It is the currency of white evangelicalism. So here's an opportunity for someone to hitch their wagon to one of the largest, one of the biggest artists in the world.

Yeah. And regardless of if his stuff is blasphemous or not, it's referencing Jesus. So for them, that's enough to want to like, you know, latch their hook to it, you know, hitch their wagons to it. And now they can say, hey, you know, I was involved with this. Simultaneously, I got wagons to it. And now they can say, Hey, you know, I was involved with this simultaneously. I got a book coming out and simultaneously I got a real, like there was a reality TV show coming, right? So there was all of that being able to hitch their wagon to that, that, that power and that influence. And simultaneously,

that's what, that's what Ye wants. Like he wants, I would say power, influence, and acceptance. So you're not saying that Kanye is simply a victim of the power and influence drive of white evangelicals. You're saying that he too is like, it's a mutual kind of relationship. Absolutely. is is like it's it's a it's a mutual kind of relationship absolutely would you say so so would you and this is you know in your perspective your opinion or whatever i mean do you see kanye uh going going towards white evangelicals and because he sees more power and influence there than say going back to his sort of you know black gospel chicago kind of roots or no i think it's twofold i think it's twofold i think um one he goes he

goes to the white evangelical slash right-wing conservative side of things um on one hand because he's been rejected by the by the air quote liberal i hate that yeah phrase but right but for the sake of common language the liberal side right like when obama dissed kanye that hit him harder than i think anyone publicly is willing to accept i mean kanye said it right he said i was an obama obama's nation but that's a really bad way to start a conversation wait wait so in in so i'm not familiar with this because again i haven't followed kanye at all so um so how yeah he obama dissed kanye yeah i think he called him a jerk or something like that but yeah there was a like obama diskanye publicly wow right he he had he I'm going to diss Kanye publicly. Wow. Right. He had, he said something negative about Kanye.

So that coupled with, right, when he, the backlash that he got going back to, you know, George Bush doesn't care about black people. Yeah. Right. He got super backlash from that. Right. And then he got dissed by Obama. Right. So now it's like well what

what do i do i didn't i didn't mean to offend the people that i offended what i said what i said and now here's these other people that i thought i was trying to latch on to and then they disimmune and not only is this like this there's the first black president who's from my town right he's from my city that i put on for yeah we both supposed to put on was okay and then he just and then he you know the most powerful man in the world and he dis the the person at least in kanye's mind he's the most powerful artist in the world right so now you've right he he's struck he had no home and then he goes on the Watch the Throne album and he says, you know, talking about his future children, if he has a son, saying I might even tell him to vote Republican just so they know that he loves white people. So the whole Trump kind of thing going on, Kanye, which was like a year ago,, a couple years ago or something? And, you know, he's sporting

the MAGA hat. So you're saying that that's got a... That's the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot going on for the last couple decades that kind of played into him going that route, right? On top of the fact, Kanye, one of the things that

is consistent throughout Kanye's career is you're not going to tell him what he's not going to do. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Regardless of if he should do it or not. Right. He would do things that, no, you shouldn't do that. But he would do it anyway because you're not going to tell him what he's not going to do. And now you're telling him. You're black. You can't support Trump. Yeah. Why not?

Yeah. Who are you to tell me that I can't support anybody that I want to support? If I want to support him, I should be able to support him because I want to. Obama didn't support me. Look what happened when I went over here to support them. Look what happened. And now you're telling me I can't support them. Why not?

Why is it wrong for me to kind of appreciate that aspect of God? Like I look at that, I'm like, dude, he's not playing the tribal game. He's not going to be stuffed in this little box. He's not going to let other people play the kind of like identity politics and say, oh, this is who you are. And this is who you must be. And this is who you must. Like, I don't know. I got to appreciate that about him, even though I'm not a Trump fan at all. I mean – Right.

Now, here's why that scares me, though. Yeah. Because he's experienced on the, you know, whatever side, you know, liberal side, you know, mainstream side, right? That's what you can't do, right? And he's used to that kind of legalism from the you know from the you know from from the left yeah because that's what that is that's legal is yeah what he's not experienced yet is the legalism on the

right when they start telling when they start telling him what he can and can't do what he can and can't support where he can and can't him what he can and can't do, what he can and can't support, where he can and can't go, where he can and can't do shows, it's going to backfire. Now, but here's my question is, will white evangelicalism, will,

will they place those kinds of standards on him for fear, you know, or will they just let Kanye be Kanye so that they can have Kanye? Like, cause if they rocked about a little too much, they might lose them or. When has white evangelicalism ever let somebody else dictate the terms to them on what they are, what they are not going to be.

That's a good point. How'd that go for francis chan yeah how's that going for right how's that going for how's that going for anybody when they when when they do anything that's not uh hey you can't go over there with them you can't you can't sit with like you don't even know what's going on over here but yeah you're gonna tell me that i that i just how'd that go from the crack yeah so i here's i i have i do have a a clarifying question and i'm sure my audience probably asking this like when you say white evangelicalism you know what are you saying obviously you're not saying every white evangelical um when when i hear you saying white evangelicalism it's almost like this like like I can picture and probably name the kinds of tribes you're talking about.

It's almost like Republican celebrity driven, or even Joel Osteen, like those kind of big mega kind of power driven. mega kind of power driven. Um, but certainly I wouldn't, you know, if I wouldn't, if you wanted like an, uh, a white, uh, and a Baptist church in Canada or something, you know, that they're going to be maybe left leaning or moderate, they're not going to be Trump voters. They're going to be not, they're going to be, they're going to feel very different than the, than what you're labeling white evangelicalism. Would that, would that be an accurate assessment or I'm putting the words in your mouth. Why don't you unpack what you mean by white evangelicalism would that would that be an accurate assessment or i'm putting the words in your why don't you unpack what you mean by white evangelicalism no you're you're you're about spot on like i feel like all right too deep of not well probably too deep of an answer right but i'd say this just to clarify on vocabulary yeah i remember i talked to this

guy one time he worked for the dictionary he worked he worked for webster's dictionary and it was the year i talked dictionary and it was the year, I talked to him, it was the year they put bootylicious into the English lexicon. You know, they pick a word every year to put in and bootylicious was the word that year. As it should be.

Right, right. Shout out to Beyonce, changing the language. And so I asked him, how did he feel Bootylicious going into the dictionary, right? I didn't like it, but I wonder how he felt. He said he didn't have a problem with it at all. And I was thrown off by that. I was like, why do you say that?

He said, because the dictionary is not, the dictionary does not define the words that we use. The dictionary is a written history of how we use words. It's a result of usage, not a cause of usage. Right. Right. The dictionary doesn't tell us what a word means. It just documents how we use it. So

just as Tim Keller has been, you know, great at redefining what the word religion is, I think that in the last probably 10 or so years 10 to no not 10 years since bush i'd say since bush uh since bush the word evangelical doesn't mean what it used to mean right so like those original definitions of evangelical you really only checked about four or five boxes to be to classify as evangelical. Right. Like, do you believe the Bible is true? Do you want to share your faith? Right.

If you check off a couple, check off those boxes, you're an evangelical. Yeah. But it's primarily centered around sharing your faith and holding traditional biblical views. That's not the definition today. It's way more political today, right? Absolutely. I mean, if you're a Christian who is left of center theologically and a Democrat, you probably wouldn't even call yourself an evangelical. I feel like it has such a distinct Republican, white kind of flavor to it right i mean there are many things that are on the uh you know if we were checking off boxes of beliefs that i would subscribe to on uh that

that many who would consider themselves white evangelicals would uh there are also other things that i'm convinced especially from my time of pastoring that there are also other things that I'm convinced, especially from my time of pastoring, that there are people who consider themselves white evangelicals that don't check even some of the core boxes of what an evangelical is. Like, hey, sharing your faith, like evangelism is core to evangelicalism. But you don't believe that you even can or should in any way. And in practice, even if you check the box in practice, you don't. Right. So there's, so that's, that's why I say like the definition of what evangelical is is so different. And again, I attribute a lot of that to I can't think of his name, the dude that put together George Bush's campaign.

Bush Jr. Right. Bush Bush's campaign. Bush Jr., right? Bush Jr., yeah, yeah, Bush Jr. I forget his name. But yeah, that dude, that was evil. You know, it's interesting. I mean, it actually makes sense now. So like last year I was in Cleveland at a largely black church doing a conference. And I met with a bunch of pastors, all African American before the conference. We had a great, great conversation. I'm one of the guys who was a brilliant dude. I

mean, this guy was off the chart. He's read everything. He kept referring to himself as, you know, back in the days when I used to be, when I was an evangelical, he kept referring to evangelical as something he came out of, but he was theologically, he was very conservative. And we'd line up on all kinds of stuff. And finally I said, what do you mean by evangelical? Cause he keeps saying you're not, but then you're talking very evangelical. And it was, it was exactly this. It was when he left kind of more of a, I don't know if he,

he would say like white dominated, but more kind of a Republican political kind of socially conservative brand of, of Christianity. White culture. Yeah. Western white culturally dominated Christianity where cultural values and even things that are called biblical values

aren't driven by what scripture says is true. It's driven by what's true of culture and what's normative for their culture. And then they use scripture to back it up yeah right like like scripture does not create a normative of a um you know a biblical mandate that a man should man should be the only one who works and a woman should be the one in the house raising children, right? That's a very white, middle-class, 1950s, cultural, you know, Americana view. However, let them tell it, if you're not that, you're not a good Christian.

You're definitely not a good man, and you're not a good Christian if your wife works. Like, I was in a setting one time where a woman said, the pastor's wife, the lead pastor's wife said, if you talking about women, we were talking about the tension in the church of wives who work, right? Of all the things going on in the church, that's... Oh my gosh. so the wife says if you're if you're a mom who works i question if you love your children right now me and a few other people we were high-key offended and uh we spoke up right my wife beat me to it.

Usually I'm like, babe, let me handle this. When she looked at me, she was like, no, I got this. I'm going in. Right. So, but, but those are the kinds of things, right. We're talking about white evangelicalism. It's like, it's cultural, you know, it's white cultural norms become, become the driver of what is allegedly biblically true. It's a culture created largely by white evangelicals. So that you can even be part of that culture and not even be white and still – or you can be white evangelical and not be a white evangelical in that cultural sense that you're talking about. Say that again like you can like there's like you you can be not white and still be of that culture and buy into it and vice versa you can be you can be white and and not resonate

with that culture like i mean i would say yeah yeah i would be criticized by white evangelical culture even though i'm as white as they can be um because I don't I don't I don't match up to the cultural that's been created in the wake of. Yes. Largely white leadership. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I know some I know some white dudes that are that are Christian, that are and I don't mean like, you know, they've they lean super left. No. Yeah. Some do. But I don't mean that they lean super left or anything. They're just culturally like, nah, I don't, I don't jive with that at all. Right. Like my guy, Alex early, like Alex is white. Alex is a white dude. Like he's like, he's a white dude. Right.

Love that guy. But is he, and he's a Christian, like love, like that. What like over the years somebody i've grown to love and respect through and through that dude is not even he's not evangelical he's not a white evangelical not a white evangelical at all um and then i know too for a while i was in my in my attempts and we can save this for another podcast, but in my attempts to bring a form of the type of reform that I think is needed in the church with regard to, you know, multi-ethnic church. In my attempt to reform the white evangelical church towards multiculturalism, I was absolutely in white evangelicalism. I was in white evangelicalism um i kind of had foot in foot out for the purposes of trying to bring reform in it

a fight i am no longer willing to fight uh yeah yeah that that i hate yeah i hate that well we we need to get back to kanye but maybe we can uh tag that because i i mean your story is fascinating because i mean you started out on the non-white evangelical you know like very anti right and then you swung all the way not all the way but i mean with one foot in one foot out and then yeah i'd be curious maybe your reflections where you're at now but but let's yeah let's maybe set that aside. Let's get back to Kanye. So if I can summarize and we can keep going, it's the grasp toward power and influence that is underlying a lot of the kind of Kanye interest and craze. like white evangelicalism hasn't really considered like his, maybe his, his, as if he just kind of like, his church experiences just kind of happened like six months ago where like, he does have a long history here that people haven't really considered.

But at the same time, what they're not considering is that yes, he's only been a Christian since April. The dude got saved. Imagine. So imagine, right? Imagine, for the pastors that are listening, right? Imagine you have Easter service, Easter Sunday, right? It's Super Bowl Sunday for you as a church, right? Everything is going great. Everything is going fine. Services are going incredible. and then somebody gets up, and whatever your mechanism is to call people to faith, be it an altar call, be it, you know, grabbing lunch with

you to discuss following Jesus, whatever your mechanism is to catch people who feel like either A, they're making a decision for Jesus, or, you know, they feel irresistibly drawn to follow Jesus now. Whatever that is, right, your mechanism to capture that. On that Sunday, right, last Easter, 2019, six months later, you're giving him a platform, and you're taking him on tour and letting him preach to your congregations and going on your book tours with you. And when you get invited to preach, you take him with you and you got him going all out and preaching. Now, as a pastor,

you would feel like you were mishandling the sheep. You should feel like you were mishandling the sheep. You should feel like you're mishandling the sheep. That person is a novice. That dude went to Bible study one time, and now you're like, yo, you're a leader. was the CEO at a Fortune 500 company and said, hey, now that he's someone who has clearly some leadership capabilities, and you wouldn't turn around six months later and put him on your executive team. If you do, you're a charlatan. Like, I'm just going to call you out on that. Like, if you do, you are using people.

Now, that might actually be more common in white evangelicalism actually, because power and influence. But at least as long as it remains hypothetical, you say you wouldn't do that. But in practice, doing it with Kanye right now. Would you say it wouldn't happen in a black church? Like they wouldn't be, I'll say using or, you know, lurching after Kanye in the same way that white evangelicals are? Do you see a difference? in the black church. Now let's, okay. So for this example, we're going to remove the, uh, we're going to remove the, uh, white evangelicalism embracing from this equation for now. Okay. Right. Because the black church views it very interestingly. Cause they're like, they're looking at it. Like, yo, they're using you. Really? They look at it and see it like, brother using you. What are you, and see it like brother using you what are you what

are you doing like what are you doing like they're clearly using you now the black church would absolutely be quick to forgive and embrace callie quick on that the black church a lot of times to a fault um quick to forgive someone in their uh the process from repentance to restoration is short, traditionally in the black church, right? Especially if you've got a gift. Now, Kanye likely would be somebody's choir director right away. He would, no, even if he's not the director, he would be in the music ministry right away.

Probably wouldn't be director right away, because that would just look bad. But he would be in the music ministry right away. Probably wouldn't be director right away because that would just look bad. But he'd be involved in music ministry right away. But that's largely where it would stop. Wouldn't nobody be up there asking him his thoughts about a thing. They would just say, hey, you make the way they would use him and say, hey, you make music. Let's make music. Because the black church is great for make music. Let's make music. Right. Cause the black church is great for letting some, it's funny.

The black church is historically homophobic. Yeah. And historically the producers and promoters and supporters of a whole lot of gay black gospel singers it will go just like this you know he but he can say no right like we will like we will tell you it's a sin and you're going to hell with no question coming up next right but before he repented right coming up next donnie mcclurkin all right so they're very generous with uh they're offering a hand to the music ministry yeah very but it would stop there right and they would know

would they leverage him like hey we got some music. You need to come through for the music? For sure. No question. But are they going to put him out there to promote his ideas and his views? No. Like he would still be expected to be like the pastor, the elders, the deacons would still be his authority. Like ain't no way he's going to get into that level anytime soon. Okay. No, not at all.

Not at all. Yeah. Let me ask you this. How much of the – so all I know is that he's on stage with Joel Osteen and Osteen's really going after him. Is that – I mean – but I know a lot of people, even a lot of people within white evangelicalism who would be extremely critical of Joel Osteen, who wouldn't be – you know, who, who wouldn't want to claim him as their own. Um, has there been pushbacks from within white evangelicalism to kind of his rush

to the stage, you know, so quickly? Only the ones who, okay. So I'll say this. I won't, I won't, I won't be as snarky as i was about to be it's theology in the wrong bro you can do what you want i know people who were like i personally know people who are critical of joel osteen yeah white you know white evangelicals yeah who are critical of joel osteen who were at that kanye show at joel osteen's church oh come on seriously that's serious that's serious yeah i mean other people they're white evangelicals from houston

critical of joel osteen the first time they went to Lakewood was for the Kanye concert. Yeah. Free concert, man. Hey, free concert or Kanye? Come on, man. Can't miss that. I got to be there for that, man. I got to show that I'm in the know. I got to show that I'm in the circles. Yeah. So where is this um so you're um are you faulting kanye or are you putting the fault more on the people that are you know grasping onto him so my fault is more on them than him okay

because again if we get back to, especially his need for acceptance. Okay. Right. So let's, let's, let's say, let's say his conversion is real, right? Let's set aside the fact he surely hasn't repented from his arrogance, right? Humility is not a mark of his life yet, which it shouldn't be. He's a new believer. Yeah. Right. Which the Bible says is the reason which it shouldn't be he's a new believer right yeah yeah right which the bible says is the reason why he shouldn't be in leadership because he's a new believer because that's just gonna go to his head yeah and he don't need nothing else to go to his head right so and i'll and i want to address that quickly soon too but right so he's got this

need to be accepted right and he's put his faith in if his conversion is legit right yeah he should have a need to be accepted because that's what you get saved to god and to his people so right yeah he should feel like he's got somewhere he should be able to go and latch on to and grow with and all of that right now he's got all this other stuff going on where these people he's latching on to should have a system in place that deals with you know how do you deal with new believers people aspiring towards leadership because make no mistake about it the dude is aspiring towards leadership it's one of my great fears for him uh if you listen to him the dude wants to essentially start a cult but we can go there in in a second. It should be all of these

solid leadership and accountability and all of these mechanisms in place for the stuff that could go wrong to not happen because the community that he's a part of has all of these things. This community that has a multi-millennia history has stuff in place that should be able to have guardrails to keep him healthy as he's trying to navigate all of this stuff that he's got to navigate. But they don't use them. They don't use those guardrails. They don't leverage that leadership.

They don't do all the stuff that they should. The stuff is there. So I fault them. I fault them. right the stuff is there so i fought them right i fought them i don't i you know if a guy accidentally walks into a uh walks into an airport with a gun in his backpack you know he might have went hunting or something they went shooting and he put the gun in his pack you know hanging with his boys they went you know they went target shooting and he forgot to take the gun out of his backpack. Um,

I fought him a little bit for forgetting to take the gun out of his pack, but if the gun makes it onto the plane, I fought TSA. Right. Right. Kanye's got the gun. The church of the TSA is supposed to be the security's checkpoints to to guard him from himself and him from us in the times where it's harmful and they're not doing it yeah yeah so so he's he's aspiring for leadership you're saying he he's not just wanting to be a converted singer artist now gospel singer whatever that going to be on stage as a singer.

He actually wants to be in like, I mean, intellectual or pastoral kind of leadership, like at that level. He wants to create, like, if you listen to him, he wants to create a society. Oh, wow. He's got all this land. He's thinking about the architecture for the land. He tried to build it in Calabasas.

It didn't work because of building permits. They told him he couldn't build his building too high. So he left Calabasas and went out to the mountains of Montana. He's trying to build it out there and he's trying to grow his own. He wants to have a fully sustained society where they grow their own stuff. They grow their own materials, their sole clothes. He's trying to figure out how to grow blue blue cotton and stuff like that right yeah um right and this isn't like weird conspiracy

series stuff like i'm only saying the stuff that he said like this is interviews like this is the stuff that he's talked about so you know the forbes interview and the zane lowe interview like this is the stuff that he's talked about, right? He wants to create the society. He wants to be a leader. He said he wants to be the greatest Christian artist ever, right? He wants to top Rembrandt and all of these other great Christian artists. He wants to be seen as the apex of them all. He wants to be an apex leader and he wants to create this society and people are listening to him and people are, are, are, are, my fear is, you know, people are following him and like, wait, it's like you got all of that and you got this dude with a huge amount of

hubris armed with the God said card. Yeah. Right. Like, like if you Pete, there was a clip somebody released when he was at Joel Osteen's church and he was preaching. That's what he's doing. He was preaching. And somebody was, you know, somebody was giving him an amen from the crowd. You know, somebody was excited. Amen. Preach. Yeah. Yeah. And he stopped him. He stopped him. He said, I'm trying to be brother. I'm asking you, can you not do that?

Can you not do that because I'm trying to receive from God right now. I'm trying to let him flow through me right now. And I don't need those distractions. I need it quiet so that I can be a vessel so God can flow through me right now and speak the words through me right now. So don't interrupt that. Right. And people applauded that and then stopped. But I'm like, okay, so what you're saying is the words that are coming out of your mouth you're just being just from heaven and out your mouth yeah wow right you've armed the person with the biggest ego with the god said card wow yeah and that that wouldn't go i mean to tell people not to say amen that can only work in a white church, right? It's not going to work in a black church. For real?

You got one little white dude in the front row, amen! That's only going to work in a white culture, right? You come in a black church, you can't say amen. Sit there and be quiet. There's going to be a church mother in the back saying, you can't stop her, amen.

You can't stop my hallelujah so yeah yeah that's my that's just some of my thoughts on kanye it's come it's complex right it's a it's it's a dangerous marriage um that i think is um some aspects, mutual usury, right? One using the other one, you know, is basically Donald Trump's look at my African-American, right? Look at my African-American over there. Oh, Trump. That's probably the most excited he's ever been. When he saw Kanye sporting the MAGA hat, oh my word.

But here's where it's going to go weird. Here's one area where I think it's going to go weird. Right? Kanye still talks about social justice. Huh. He still talks about prison reform, heavy. The song with him and Fred Hammond, he's just going in about prison reform. Right. And so that's going to like,

you can't start talking about prison reform without getting into the, the prison industrial complex. Yeah. Right. The school, the pipeline prison. Right. Like once you start getting into the prison industrial complex. Yeah. Right. The school, the pipeline prison. Right. Like once you start getting into all of that, like, and then being from Chicago, like you're only going to go so far without getting into the points that white evangelicalism is uncomfortable talking about. Which that could be a good thing. Could that be a good thing? I mean, he could be smuggling in some challenging things into the white evangelical complex no

no that ain't how it work okay that ain't how it work you can't you can't smuggle in with them yeah it is what it is you can't smuggle in with them it's they'll they'll tolerate a certain amount and then as soon as this like, this is wildly uncomfortable for me. There's no changing. I'm not changing. You are. You're not changing. You got to go.

Let me give you a parallel. I think so. Like when John Piper started talking about racial reconciliation, you know, his book Bloodlines, you know and really pushed pushed some people's thinking pretty hard but it only could go so far once lecrae starts tweeting about here you know here's my here's my ancestors on fourth of july 200 years ago picking cotton and i mean he's did several things where he kind of like people said we we're willing to go here, but don't take us here. And so now you see a lot of kind of backlash where I thought 10 years ago, there was a lot of inroads in the Southern Baptist Church and just kind of more reformed circles with racial reconciliation.

But it seems like as long as it's kind of under our own terms, you know, like as long as i don't have to change right and i don't want to say that categorically but i have seen like it's like racial reconciliation with with underneath a white evangelical umbrella like don't change our white reform culture don't change our white reform music don't you know our leadership still is going to be largely white um but but hey we need to have racial reconciliation. Again, I applaud the first step, but it's like, I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Yeah, they say we need racial reconciliation.

You need to be more like us. Done. Why don't you just keep going there for a little bit? I think this is important enough to hear. Yeah, and I think it's important enough to hear yeah and i think it's pertinent to the conye conversation yeah um it's be like us yeah absolutely you can we can yeah we let's have racial reconciliation let's reconcile um and then when you start talking about what what needs to be reconciled it's like yeah you need to be more like us than that yeah i

don't i don't have to change that you need to to change that. You need to, as long as you're, this is it. Yeah. This, this was something that, and it's a conversation that me and many minorities, minorities kind of in that space have. Be yourself. Oh, no, no, no, not like that. Not like that. Don't be yourself like that. Be yourself like me. that. Don't be yourself like that. Be yourself like me. Just be the brown version of me, okay? That's what I need you to do. I need you to be the brown version of me. You be the brown version of me, I'm all for racial reconciliation. So you're speaking from, I mean, experience from talking to people. You've, you know, especially when you were church planning and a pastor, you pastored in three different, three different cities, right? I mean, and hard, like, well, okay, let me ask you this, because I think my audience is going to, is largely white, not, I mean, I don't know the percentages, but a lot of white people that I think are going to resonate with what you're

saying, actually. So what would true racial reconciliation look like in a church? Give us like concrete, like, here's what a healthy version of that would look like. Yeah, I mean, it would look like church leadership being equally diverse, right? It's, you know, people of color, you know, and white people together, leading together as, you know people of color uh you know and and white people together leading together uh as you know as equals right where the white man doesn't have more voice than the than the black man or the latino or the asian man they're they're they're equals um and the black person isn't the black the black and latinos aren't brought in to speak about racial stuff. They're brought in to speak about stuff. They're brought in to speak about, we're going to hear from our,

here's our, here's one attempt that I always see done, and I think from a good place, but they get the one, especially if they're a foreign ethnic minority, right? If they're like not from America, oh man, we got a Mrs. Tripp coming up. You get to give the announcement about that. Oh man, we about to go paint fences with brown people. Let's put up a brown person to tell them about it, right?

Like it's, you know, it's, hey, let's have the, let's have the asian do the financial update every time people trust asians and numbers let's have the asian do the financial update every time that's all that's the only time we hear from them not for announcements not for baptisms none of that yeah you do the money no you don't baptize anybody we don't want you teaching you don't need no Bible studies no give us a financial update that's your job that's it right yeah like so where there's right what so where there's genuine mutuality where people are allowed to where a church has a theological culture that allows people to

navigate their cultural their own cultural norms through the lens of the bible without having to adapt the the dominant group's culture right where a somalian family can come into the church and navigate their own cultural issues through the Bible without having to adopt being what it's like to live like a white person, right? They can keep the parts of their culture that aren't anti-biblical, right? But they're able to navigate that in a way as they live that out, they're not seen as being in sin because they don't do it the way the, depending on where you are, white people live. Like here,

where I live, I don't think it's good to yell at your kids in public. I don't think you've committed this grave sin. I just don't think it's good. don't think you've committed this grave sin. Yeah. I just don't think it's good. Like, don't do that. Like that, that, that, that's embarrassing, you know? Yeah. But I don't think you've committed this grave sin, but in Seattle,

yell at your kids in public. Oh my gosh. First of all, to have more than two kids in public might be a, might be a sin in Seattle. But to yell at, like to yell at your kids in public. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. How dare you? You should be a better parent. Like God, Jesus doesn't like that. Right. So there's, but like you come from, you come from another country. It's Hey, get over here. Hurry up. Yeah. Right. We think about all this stuff. We need to keep you safe from,

I don't need, I don't have time to figure out your love language. No, get over here and don't run into the street. Yeah. Right. But being able to navigate those cultural differences in a way where you won't be villainized for, for navigating it, for navigating it different. Right. Those, those are, those are just some of the things. Yeah. Those are, those are just some of the things. Those are just some of the things. How about being, one thing I've tried to learn and I'm on a journey, I'm growing and there's so many blind spots I have, but even just understanding just church culture, modern

church culture does have a distinct whiteness to it. Um, you know, I don't know, I could, several things I can say, but I mean, the music for one, you know, like it's, and I don't want to, again, I don't want to speak categorically like all white people have like this kind of music, whatever. But like it does, you go into a largely, you know, black church or a church of more color where white is a minority. And it's just, it's going to feel different. It's probably gonna be much longer. It's going to be more vibrant. People are going to be speaking back. Like it's just going to have a different feel to it.

The songs aren't all going to be written by white people. And that's going to, I mean, that, that does affect lyrics when it comes from white evangelicalism and on and on and on. But again, I don't, there's, there's no, And on and on and on. But again, I don't, there's no, I think just being self-aware of how much our white majority ethnicity affects how we do things. There's a lot of, it's like, you know, it's like the fish in water. He doesn't know what water and reflect on how somebody who's not white could feel unintentionally uncomfortable or just not feel like they're as a first class, like a first class citizen in this place because they feel like they are in a foreign culture, even though they're fully American and speak English and so on. I remember on that note, right? I remember I was at a church.

One of the things I was, you know, in part because of passion and then in part kind of assigned to do is just kind of help us help the church towards being a more diverse church. Right. And so we were in San Jose, which is a pretty diverse city, right? It's basically like a third white a third asian a third latino and a little bit african-american african sprinkled in there right yeah especially where we were we were kind of in like a lot of the intersection of that physical and so we're like man we got to make some strides quick here like they were like so they just said you know hey what's what's just a quick win what's a quick way where we can like begin to

embrace the people that the few that are already here that are that that are not like everyone else i'll say hey let's get let's get fella uh script scripture reading let's do scripture reading in another language spanish let's get them up there we'll put it up in English So You know People who don't speak Spanish Can follow along But then we'll just let The fella get up there Spanish is

His first language Let him get up there Speak Spanish He gets up there And dude is like You know East San Jose Just like straight up

Like Mexican Like just Chicano culture too Right Right Like he even like just like straight, like I loved him, like yeah, he was

himself. Oh my, I loved it. So we was like, yo, let's invite him. He said he'd do it. He gets up there. He reads in Spanish. Into the service, white dude comes up to me. He goes, hey man, I was uncomfortable. Like, what do you mean? I mean, I was uncomfortable up Like, what do you mean? I was uncomfortable up there hearing him read in Spanish.

It just made me uncomfortable. It's not my first language. I don't even know what he was saying. And it just made me uncomfortable. And I said to him, so imagine how he feels every Sunday. Imagine what his experience is like every Sunday. Yeah. The dude just looked at me and went,

I've never thought about that. Wow. Well, that's a great response. I mean, he received it. He took it on the chin. I don't know if he received it. He just took it on the chin and I don't know if he received it. He just took it on the chin and walked away. He was also the one that would always bring up, Hey man, you know,

I don't know what to do with the Trayvon Martin stuff. You know, he was that guy too. So, but yeah. Do you see, do you have examples of churches doing it? Well, I mean, of course there is a bit, do you know any off the top of your head or people or whatever? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Derwin Gray out in Charlotte, South Carolina.

Yeah. Transformation Church. Leon's Crump out in Atlanta, Renovation Church. Ryan Kwan up in Hayward, Californiaia and down in you know just down in the south bay area um uh i'm trying to think of some other there's a few others that i think are there's a few others that i think are doing it well from from the gate i know you know brian loritz has had a history of of of doing it um yeah so i mean there's been i mean there's a few guys that i think are doing it uh you know there's um there's there's a few oh my gosh um oh mark damas right

yeah i was gonna yeah i'm a little Yeah. Mosaics, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right? I think they do it. I think they do it well. Low key, people are going to hate. But I think being in the Seattle area,

Judah Smith, every time I go there, I mean, I've been in, like, I go to their Kirkland, Washington campus, right? Like, how generic is Kirkland, Washington? It's Costco's, it's Costco's brand, right? If you want a generic thing, you get the Kirkland brand, like that's, that's Kirkland, right? It's generic white culture out there. Right. But you go into, you go into their campus over there and it's, I mean,

it's the most diverse church I've seen in the region. Really? Wow. Yeah. So, so you got those, a few of those that I can think of off top that I think do it. Even if they're failing, points where they're failing, like they're failing well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One more question and I'll let you go, man. Going back to Kandia, where's Kim at on all this? Is she like pastor's wife now? Or what's the, is she,

do we know anything about her relationship to his story? So here's just the things that I've seen. The things that I've seen is one, it's caused her to embrace some more of her Arminian roots. So I think she's like going back to like, I saw a picture of her um armenian roots um so i think she's like going back to like i saw a picture of her where she i think she was getting baptized back in the armenian church okay um you seen armenian like the ethnicity not armenian theologically yeah yeah very very good point to

clarify um yeah so seeing her embrace more of that. I know I've seen Kanye and her talk about publicly, like her not dressing as, her not dressing as, I don't know the word you want to use, but as a Kardashian. Being more covered up. Right. Just being more covered up in the, you know,

photos that they post publicly. That is kind of the elephant in the room a little bit.'m like i don't know pastor's wife but this is interesting but yeah yeah so i mean so so there there has been that element um of course you know trump used her as a you know kind of use her platform again, power and influence. You want to get somebody to talk about prison reform? Let's get Kim Kardashian. Yeah. Huh? Oh, well she did the video. Cause she saw, she saw a video and posted it and showed she cared about prison reform and her dad used to be a lawyer. So let's talk about,

let's use her to talk about prison reform because that makes sense. Uh, but no, it's, it's again, it's again it's that it's it's white evangelicalism yeah it's that white evangelical conservative republican leverage influence because who has more influence than the kardashians right now right not many yeah not many so and now we've got the husband to a kardashian yeah Who was already one of the biggest artists in the world. Right. Yeah. If you could add up Kim Kardashian and Kanye's like Twitter following combined or just social. I mean, my goodness, they're more two of the most. I mean, together, some of those influential people in the world. Yeah. I mean, they got more followers in the pope.

influential people in the world yeah i mean they got more followers than the pope the the kardashians leveraged fame for wealth not the other way around yeah you know what i mean like one of them became a billionaire because she came up she she came up with her own lipstick line and leveraged her influence for it and now she's a billionaire yeah right they leverage fame for wealth and so who's got more who's got more power and influence than them right now nobody yeah right and i'm convinced just based on little stuff i've seen little stuff i've heard you're you may be hearing the beginnings of the the beginning of the foundation being laid for, for a Kardashian political life. Oh, really? Yeah. As in Kim, like. At least Kim, if not Kim and Kanye, but at least Kim.

Kim hasn't said as many stupid things as Kanye to hang them up on. But I mean, if the guy who currently is in there, if he can get in, I don't think. Exactly. I was going to say say we voted trump in the office so i i yeah five years ago i would have said no way but i'm like yeah sure why not hey let's see what's gonna say got some ideas but so but my last thoughts on the on kanye and white evangelicalism um i'm fearful because, again, it's power, influence, and they're just leveraging it

to promote their own stuff. I've watched white evangelicalism chew up people and throw them away as soon as they disagree. I've watched it over and over and over and over and over and over and over. So I'm fearful that's going to happen to him.

I'm fearful that once that happens, black believers are going to be like, bro, I told you so, and now you're trying to crawl to us to get your foot back. You was using them. I'm afraid you're trying to use us too, right? Quasi Pauline? Like, hey, this dude was just killing us. This dude was just killing us. This dude was just killing us. I don't know if we should trust him, right?

So I fear that's going to happen. I fear this whole backlash is going to go all bad, and then at best it's just going to become a footnote in Kanye's wild career of, hey, this was that, you know, you had the old Kanye, then his mom died, and then you had wild Kanye, and then you got, you know, like you had with Mace, right? You got the Jesus-following Kanye, gospel music Kanye, and then there's going to be, I'm afraid there's going to be

a post-era of that Kanye. Where I'm hopeful is that hey his conversion I mean legit and he just gets out of music and focuses on you know his life and growing himself in his family and trying to create in that way and encouraging artists to be more creative and I'm hopeful because hey let's say this whole conversion thing is real. Right? Let's say it's real. God scattering seeds. How do we know that God is not using Kanye to throw him seeds? He's scattering seeds.

They might fall on the concrete. But Kanye's own experience was he was doing gospel music before the message of the music hit him. I'm hopeful that it might be somebody like my, like my coworker who was at the, you know, Sunday service. I don't know. It's not just the seed being planted for something that's going to, you know, one plants, one waters, but God yields the increase. How do we know? We're not looking at, you know,

God using Kanye to plant and water seeds for people and that eventually sprouts up some true fruit? So obviously I agree with that. Obviously I say, because the parable you're referencing, I mean, makes that point and God can use anybody. And, you know, I guess my one worry is that it's hard to separate. What am I trying to say here? His message is inseparable from the messenger.

And that messenger slash message is so wrapped up in celebrity culture. So, for instance, the person who's going to be impacted by Kanye's conversion, you can't separate the fact that it comes from Kanye and is a celebrity and it comes with all the power and influence and wealth. And I don't know, like that, the gospel message comes with almost like an unforeseen toxicity that if that's not rooted out, you just kind of keep perpetuating the same kind of American gospel, celebrity gospel that stunts effective discipleship down the road. And then the hope becomes that they're not being discipled like Kanye in white evangelicals. Right, right. Yeah.

Because if they're going through what Kanye is going through and being discipled through white evangelicalism, it is going to perpetuate. Right. Well, it's 2020, man. We'll see what's going on. We got Trump in the office. We got Kanye planting the cultist society up in Montana. A society? Whatever's going on up there.

I mean, I admire this estate. I'm kind of down with that. He just, I mean, he's such, he's, yeah, he's kind of, he's always been kind of a loose cannon off his rocker a little bit. So I don't know. He's like the mad genius. I mean, he is a genius. Yeah, he's kind of, he's always been kind of a loose cannon off his rocker a little bit. So I don't know. He's like the mad genius. I mean, he is a genius. Yeah, he's a genius of an artist.

I don't think he's not smart. I think he's a smart guy, but he's just a little nuts too. But that's the other part, right? Like, yeah, do I admire now as a business? If this stays purely as a business. Yeah. Creating his own, like growing blue cotton to make blue clothes so you don't have to die like you're talking about cutting back talking about cutting back so much on cost now

what's that going to do to the what's that going to do to the soil right like you got to look at that stuff but like if that's actually sustainable as a business model, that is revolutionary. Keep the cultish, you know, I'm your leader part out of it, right? Like just keep it, hey, you come here, you work here, you go home, kind of stuff happening with it. That's brilliant. But you've got a guy who is one, armed with a God said card. Two, he's armed with mental issues yeah like the dude he takes he he takes lexapro and he's rapped about some of the medicine that he takes like he he calls it he refers to it

as his superpower oh wow right he calls his mental instabilities and stuff that he's dealing with um his his superpower now on one hand i admire his i admire his desire to remove the stigma that comes along with mental health yeah right it's not it's not a mental issue it's my it's my it's not my disability it's my superpower yeah right like i'm down for i'm down for that yeah right remove the stigma cool yeah um but at the same time we got to deal with the fact that the decisions that are being made are made through that lens and would you like if if you took Kanye out of his celebrity status, he's just, let's say he's a normal dude, but with all of his hubris and mental issues and arrogance,

would you want him as your pastor? No! Minus the platform. Like, would you hire him? Fresh out of seminary, here comes Kanye, whose name's Bob Thomas or something. I don't know. He's got 150

followers on twitter uh but say but same kind of like everything else is the same like would you want him as your pastor or or somebody you'd look up to for like hey what do you think about this what do you think about that tell us about your view on sexuality and and politics and right but the thing this dude isn't fresh out of seminary he fresh out of bible study right bible study not even right he fresh off the altar call he he he got two weeks of new believers class like i'm not hiring that guy at joel osteen's church i mean no offense i mean you know i don't know whatever maybe it's theologically rich never mind i don't hey man we gotta go uh dude thanks so much for your time this has been super interesting

to me we'll see how it goes when I release this publicly we may get some emails but hey it's the all general folks I'll add me I'm at I'm at Steven Patton

on Twitter they can they can come right for me there you go Steven what is he come at me dude thanks for your time man appreciate

you same here bro take care Same here, bro. Take care.