Theology in the Raw - 781: #781 - People of Color and Women in Evangelicalism: Nijay Gupta

Episode Date: March 2, 2020

Preston reconnects with an old friend from his Ph.D. days in the U.K. Nijay has quickly become a leading N.T. scholar and, as a person of color, is alert to the white-dominated culture of American evangelicalism, especially in the academy. Nijay and Preston also talk about various other scholarly N.T. interests. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am coming to Greeley, Colorado, March 5th and March 6th, Nashville, Tennessee, March 10th and March 11th. After that, I'm going to be in Seattle, Washington, March 15th, Philadelphia, April 30th and May 1st, and Phoenix, Arizona, May 6th and May 7th. You can check out centerforfaith.com forward slash events, I believe. Yep. I had to double check that forward slash events, or you can just go to centerforfaith.com and there's a clear events link at the top of the page. You can check out how you can register to all of these events. You do have to register ahead of time. I recommend if you do plan on coming to one or some or all of these events,

you got to register sooner than later because spots do fill up. I have on the show today, a friend of mine that I've known for gosh, maybe about 1012 years, we overlapped when we're doing our PhDs. I was doing a PhD at Aberdeen University and Nije Gupta was doing his PhD at Durham University, which was, as we talk about on the show, the kind of center of New Testament studies 10 years ago or so. There was just a whole pile of just world-renowned New Testament scholars there. Nije got to study with those scholars. And Nije has become one of the up and coming leading New Testament scholars. He's kind of, he's more than just up and coming.

He's published several books, commentaries, and has many more things in the works. Um, so he's more than just up and coming. Um, but he's still fairly young where, you know, I think he's in his early forties, but I mean, he's, is, and is going to be a, to be a leading voice in New Testament scholarship. He's a brilliant dude, kind, humble, gentle, wise scholar. And he also has a massive heart for the church. So I'm super excited for you to get to know Dr. Nijay Gupta. Okay, I'm here with my friend Nijay Gupta.

Nijay, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Row, man. Yeah, thanks. I've listened many times, so it's exciting to be on the show. You're a listener. I didn't know that. I am. Oh, wow. I am. Wow, I'm so honored, actually. I don't think there's too many scholars that listen to it, but that's awesome. Or maybe they don't admit, but I'm going to admit it. Guilty pleasure. Where did we first meet? Was it in the UK? Do you remember? My guess, it's one of the British New Testament

Society conference meetings. I wonder if it's, yeah, I think so. Because you started, I think you might have started shortly after I did. I think we overlapped by a year or two at least. When did you start? I started in 2006 and finished in 2009. Okay, yeah. So I was 04 to 07. Okay. A little bit. A little bit, yeah.

Yeah. Well, hey, why don't you give us just a quick overview of who you are? And I'm mainly interested, not that I'm not interested in like your kids' birthdays or whatever, but I'm mainly interested in your academic journey or your interest in Christian theology as, if I can say, a rising star in Christian academia. I know you won't say that of yourself, but it's just true. Thanks, Preston. So I grew up in North Central Ohio. The reason why that might be interesting is I actually grew up with Ben Rutherton living just a mile from my house.

Oh, wow. Ben taught at Ashland Theological Seminary, and I grew up born and raised in Ashland, Ohio, just by the grace of God. And I actually grew up in a Hindu household. My parents are Hindu. And I became a Christian in high school through my brother, who became a Christian through some of his friends while he was in college. and in high school through my brother, who became a Christian through some of his friends while he was in college. And I actually went to high school with Ben Witherington's daughter, Christy

Witherington. I was on fire for the Lord. I wanted to be a missionary. My parents were like, you should go to college first. So I ended up going to Miami of Ohio, Miami University of Ohio. You might know the name Edwin Yamauchi, who's a well-known archaeologist, New Testament scholar. I didn't study with him directly, but I went to church with him. He was an influence on me in college. I was involved with Camps Crusade for Christ. The Navigators did some missions work in Eastern Europe with Crusade. Really grew in my faith there. But I had so many questions about the Bible, and I studied classical Greek in college so I could study the new Testament. And I just fell in love with Greek and I fell in love with the Bible,

but I felt like some of these parachurch organizations were kind of picking and choosing what scriptures they used a lot of great teaching, but they weren't using a whole lot of the Bible. They were just using parts of Romans, parts of John, parts of Genesis. And I just, I felt like there's all this other stuff, like what's 2 Chronicles about? Or Jude? Why is Jude in the Bible? I said all these questions. And I remember the president of Gordon-Conwell spoke at my church in Ohio. His name's Walt Kaiser. Walter Kaiser. And I wasn't there by chance.

I don't remember. I was traveling. But my roommate was, and he brought home the catalog to Gordon Conwell. I hadn't even thought about seminary much. And I looked at this catalog, and I just looked at all the course title names. And I was like, this is amazing. I just got so excited about studying exegesis. Didn't even know what that was.

But as I read the description, it seemed really interesting. And biblical theology, and Robert Coleman was there, who was an expert in evangelism discipleship. Bill Mounts was there at the time. So Greek scholar, Gary Pratico, Hebrew scholar, Doug Stewart, author of How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. You know, all these fantastic scholars. I was really, you know, that I'd heard a couple of those, like How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. You know, all these fantastic scholars. I was really, you know, I'd heard a couple of those, like How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. So I ended up going to Gordon Conwell with really an interest in pastoral ministry or missions work. I was kind of thinking about, you know, or a parachurch. And I got a chance to, I tested out of Greek because of my study of classics. And I got a chance to TA for Greek.

And that was my first taste of teaching. And I just loved it. I just loved learning, learning, learning, and then being able to share what I'm learning. And I just felt like when I was in the classroom TAing for Greek, it was like, this is what I was made for. I think Richard Hayes refers to to as getting bit by the bug. So I got bit by the bug. I met my wife there in seminary, Gordon Conwell. She was his fellow student.

And we had our first child. We got married. We had our first child there. And then I want to do a PhD. You know, I don't, I didn't used to share this, but I'm willing to share this now that I'm old. I got rejected to every single PhD program I applied to. I did too.

The first time I applied to all the elite schools. Maybe it's my jury score. I don't know what it was. My references, who knows? But I was really discouraged. And then I remember having a conversation with Scott Haifman. I don't know if you know Scott. I know him well, yeah.

I used to know him well. Yeah. And he, I said, should I go to Tupin again? Because I know him well. Yeah. And he, he, I said, should I go to Tupin again? Cause I know he went to Tupin again. He said, no, don't, don't do that. That was really challenging. He said, go to Durham. And so I applied to places in the UK and I got into Durham and I knew something about N.T. Wright going there to be bishop. And I knew John Barclay's name from a few things. So I went there to study with Stephen Barton and John Barclay in the area of Paul's use of cultic metaphors, metaphors of temple priesthood and sacrifice. I just had a wonderful experience.

I don't know what your experience is like in Scotland, but I just had three outstanding years there. It was just like I could be confessional without kind of it getting out of hand, but I could lean into the academics in terms of balancing act of wanting to do some theology, but doing rigorous academic studies. Our second child was born there. We just had a fantastic experience. The scholars there, Lauren Stuckenkenbrook francis watson came yeah uh you know uh i would listen to ck barrett preach at the age of 91 in our methodist circuit wow we got to sit in the family room of charles

cranfield i didn't say cranfield is there too. 94, 95, aged 94, 95, something like that. He'd talk about Romans. He'd pull a Roman's commentary off the shelf. We'd ask him a question. He'd look through his own commentary. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. We just had the best.

Real quick, just to my audience, just to fill in my audience, some of these names might be familiar, some might not be, but all the people we're listing, these are the leading, unbelievable New Testament scholars. wasn't a faculty right but he was hanging out and then jimmy dunn who one of the world-renowned new testament scholars who you're a big fan of even like lauren stuckenbrook is a leading scholar in like early judaism and new testament so i mean these are just like john barclay from my vantage point is the number one new testament scholar if we can rank them i mean um yeah what's his face might be close number two um i'm blinking what's his face anyway um yeah number two. I'm blinking. What's his face. Anyway.

Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you are in the heart of new tests, leading new to, and Charles Cranfield, C E B Cranfield wrote a two volume commentary on Romans. It's kind of like the classic,

classic foundational, like every, like it's, you, you can't study romans without wrestling with cranfield's commentary so anyway i'm just geeking out by all these names you're mentioning well well the beautiful thing too is um i think all of them as far as i can remember are very um thoughtful believers yeah they don't often some of them don't often talk about their

faith tom right does obviously but some of them don't often talk about their faith. Tom Wright does, obviously, but some of them don't often talk about their faith. But, you know, you could see that there was a passion and interest that was of more than an academic kind in what they were doing. And that was inspiring too, because many of the students I was working with, fellow students, Ben Blackwell, John Goodrich, all these folks are pastoral-minded people, people with seminary degrees like me. And so it was actually very enriching, nurturing theological environment. Some people say, oh, PhD program, you're going to lose your faith. It was quite the opposite for me. I just grew in my faith more and more and more. And I just so much appreciated that context. The UK, as you know, just really allowing you to kind of choose

your adventure yeah and remind me again who you worked with Simon Gattergill up at oh yeah actually applied to study with Simon and he was at Aberdeen and he accepted me and I sat down with him and I said let's do this and he's he knew he knew at that point he was going to Cambridge but he didn't tell me oh actually he actually dissuaded me from going to Aberdeen. He said, have you applied to study with John Barclay? And I said, yes. He said, you should go study with John.

That's funny. Yeah. He was one of the options of people that I could have studied with. Simon is fantastic. He was actually my examiner. Did you know that? He was my examiner. Oh, no.

How did that go? They were late for the examination. So so so simon and francis watson went out for lunch and they were late and i'm sitting there in this room like sweating like bullets because i just didn't know what was going on and i thought i was in the wrong place and then they finally turned up it was fine one too many pints probably yeah so wait you had francis watson and simon gothic or your examiners yeah wow so how did it go it went fine i mean um i heard simon could be pretty pretty you can't i don't know if i told you this but he uh i used some latin in my dissertation because um i was doing some text critical stuff. And I took Latin in high school, and I just did a little bit of extra study in my PhD program. But he actually saw some mistakes

in my Latin. So he made me, he quizzed me on Latin in the actual Viva, the oral defense, which was one of my kind of nightmare scenarios. So I survived survived but maybe as one passing through the flames i don't know i just remember yeah for my audience i mean the the viva uh is the oral defense and your your entire phd rests on this what one to three hour conversation and it is in my experience it was just like the movies i walk into this 500 year old building in a cold dark dreary room with like a light and a table and a glass of water and then two scholars on the other side and i'm like i could fail like you could let people have literally failed their examination and they hand you a master's an m phil a one-year master's degree

which means you spent probably a hundred thousand000 for a one-year master's degree that can't get you a job anywhere. Or they can say, hey, great job. Here's some minor corrections and stuff. So one of the most anxiety-inducing experiences of my life. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's funny because when I got a job at George Fox, they asked for my transcripts. And I said, we don't have transcripts because we didn't take courses.

So all you have is a diploma that says that you finished. You have a doctorate. So you passed your Viva. And then did you get a job right at George Fox right after or? No. Oh, Preston. Oh, no, no, no. My story is long and winding.

So at the time I finished was when the big market crash happened, especially in the United States. And so, you know, there were no jobs because people didn't want to retire and institutions were, many of them took losses from their endowments and other things. And so I bounced around. I spent a year as a visiting professor at Ashland Seminary, my hometown. My friend David DaSilva and John Byron were there, and they scraped together a one-year visiting position. I spent two years at Seattle Pacific University in seminary in Seattle. I spent a year at Eastern University in Philadelphia area. I spent a year at Roberts Wesleyan Philadelphia area. I spent a year at Roberts

Wesleyan College, the seminary there called Northeastern. Wait, so were all these just temporary positions? Basically, yes. I just had to kind of find what was available and move wherever. My poor wife had to kind of pack up every summer or so and move to a new place. And so we bounced around for a bit. I started at George Fox in 2014, but I taught several years, four or five years before that. Was she pastoring all along the way or was she just holding out? She has a Master of Divinity and a Master of Arts in Counseling. So she can kind of go in either direction depending on kind of, you know, what opportunities and what she wants to do. But actually, you may know this, but my

daughter got cancer when she was one. And so my wife took off several years for that period, because it was a lot of going to the doctor. Thankfully, our daughter is doing great. She's several years cancer free, but our family was inundated with a lot of medical appointments for several years that prevented her from really digging in. Golly, yeah. And so now she's been pastoring since what, last couple years or? Yeah, she's been on and off the last several years we've been here, but now she's in a nice kind of permanent associate position at a four square church here in Portland, Riversgate four square church. And she preaches and she helps out, you know, she leads the youth group

and family ministries. And so we have a great experience here. Cool, man. Well, one thing I want to make sure we talk about since we're talking about like your wife and ministry and everything is the whole like ETS thing and the lack of representation with women.

We had a conversation on the tail end of ETS last year. I don't know. I would love to dive into that with you at some point. But tell us about your – can you give us just a summary of your dissertation? I'm sure a lot of people listening probably like – probably just went right over their head when you were talking about Paul's cultic metaphors. Is that the – Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can you unpack that for maybe a lay audience ish? Sure. Sure. So, you know, we think of Paul's theology is in these categories called Christology, who is Jesus. Soteriology, what is salvation, pneumatology, ecclesiology. I don't think Paul functioned with all these ologies. If you look at his letters, they're often expressed in metaphors. He loves metaphors of family, brothers and sisters, fathers, sons. He loves metaphors of agriculture growing. He loves metaphors of cult, which includes things like holiness,

temple, priesthood. So for example, Paul refers to the body as a temple. He refers to the church as a temple. He loves images of sacrifice. He says the Philippians, even if I'm being poured out as a drink offering or a wine offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, we think of sacrifice as just regular language, like I sacrificed my Saturday for this cause. we think of sacrifice as just regular language, like I sacrificed my Saturday for this cause. But it would be a pretty evocative image in a culture where you actually cut animals or gave grain offerings. Paul uses these images, and they actually have deeper meaning in his letters than we often give. There's a theory called conceptual metaphor theory, and that theory kind of supports my study. And it basically says this,

sometimes we view metaphors as rhetorical icing. You know, if I want to give a speech, I might make my points like 0.1, 0.2, 0.3. And then I add icing, like I'm going to add a joke or I'm going to add a metaphor. But conceptual metaphor theory says actually from the very foundation of the way we think, we think in metaphors. Life is a journey. Life is a battle. Our corporation or our church is a family. These aren't just creative ways of talking about identity. They actually establish in a very infrastructural way who we are.

in a very infrastructural way who we are. And I wanted to look at that in Paul and see actually how his metaphors of sacrificing, of being a temple, being a priest, actually shapes the way he thinks about all of life, including what we call ethics, how we should live, live in a way pleasing to God, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, and so forth. And so the study really is looking at when he uses these kinds of metaphors, what is he actually trying to communicate? And how does he want the people of God to change as a result of that?

And what I noticed was a lot of this has to do with being courageous and strong, being willing to give things up, being resilient, being ethical or holy. And this can really help us, especially in this day and age when we're dealing with cultural pressures or persecution or struggling for identity, who exactly are we as a minority group as Christians within a wider secular majority? Some of these things can really help to frame who we are and our identity as Christians. Wow, that's awesome. And then after that, did you keep working in that area for a while? Or were you like many of us where once your dissertation is done, you want to go look at something else? Yeah, it was just something I did that was really interesting at the time. And my

supervisors helped me to shape that. But I didn't necessarily want to go on and on. I'm a little bit squirrely. So I like to switch from this to that. I just like to, I'm not going to be this person that studies one thing for 30 or 40 years. I would say my passion is exegesis and ethics. Okay. So I love commentaries. I've written a lot of commentaries. I love digging into the text, studying the Bible as deep as possible. I also love asking the so what question, which is kind of the ethics question. Has this lead to a life shape and formed in a particular way?

You might say formation. But a lot of my works have to do with exegesis and ethics in one way or another. Tell us about some of the other books you've either have written or are working on. I know you got like, I think a few coming out just this year. Is that right? Or in the next couple of years? And then it's like you have a lot, a lot of projects in your plate. Last time I checked.

Yeah. You know, so I've written a bunch of commentaries. I've written commentaries on Colossians, first, second Thessalonians, the Lord's prayer, Mike Bird and I, Mike's a prominent blogger who's New Testament professor. We, we co-wrote a commentary on Philippians. It's coming out this summer with Cambridge University Press. I'm working on a Galatians commentary. So I've written quite a variety of commentaries because I just love studying scripture and passing on what I'm learning, as I said. I've also co-edited a book called The State of New Testament Studies.

co-edited a book called The State of New Testament Studies. And that book is a collection of 20-plus essays by different expert scholars on a variety of areas of New Testament studies that students, pastors may want to know. What are people saying about who Jesus is in the study of scholarship in the last 20 years? What are people saying about women in the Bible? in the study of scholarship in the last 20 years? What are people saying about women in the Bible? What are people saying about the Jesus of history, the historical Jesus study conversation?

You also have topics on biblical books like Matthew, Acts, Revelation, and so forth. That was really fun. I did New Testament ethics, which fits my interest. Yeah, I see that. I'm looking at the table of contents right now. You've got a good lineup of topics and people. Yeah, it's a really fun book. Do you remember in seminary reading The Face of New Testament Studies? It was this kind of greenish-yellow book. Yeah, yeah.

Or maybe white. And I was so new to theological studies because I had a secular education until seminary. studies because I had a secular education until seminary. And I didn't know anything. All these people were talking about superlapsarianism and all this stuff and dispensation. And I didn't understand any of it. And so those kinds of books were really helpful for me to just privately in my study, get a handle on what all this stuff is. And so this kind of book does that, which I'm really excited about because it helps people like me that just want to be in the know and have trouble asking. Yeah. And just have a book that will do it for you. So I, what are some things going on in new, I mean, new Testament ethics, you know,

is a obviously more narrow than just ethics as a whole. Um, like, what are some things you talk about there? I mean, I can probably guess what kinds of things that might be discussed, but yeah, well, it's interesting. You know, if you asked me 20 years ago or if you asked a scholar 20 years ago, they might not even said there was anything called New Testament ethics because it wasn't really a discipline. It's become more of a discipline as we thought more about ethics and morality in the ancient world and ethics today. But I would say it involves things like the genre of the

Gospels. What exactly is the purpose of the Gospels? Is it information? And as we've learned more about how the Gospels fit in some way into the category of Greco-Roman biography, we've learned that one of the purposes of Greco-Roman biography is moral formation. Well, that puts the Gospels in this category where they're not just communicating who Jesus is for quote-unquote salvation, even though obviously it does that, but they're also trying to shape the minds and lives of Christians to be like Jesus. So Richard Burge had a nice book called Imitating Jesus, basically saying the Gospels are there not just to tell you about salvation, but encourage you to follow and imitate Jesus. Bonhoeffer said that many years ago, so it's

not new, but New Testament scholars are talking about things like that. When it comes to Paul's letters, we think Paul's all about justification by faith. Yes, that's in there, but he also cares a lot about how Christians should live. And I really draw that out and say, okay, what platforms is he using? Is he mimicking Greco-Roman moralists? Is this come from Judaism? Is it all about the spirit? Is it, you know, what is driving Paul's ethics? What is driving the way that Paul thinks about how Christians should live?

Is it Christology? Is it eschatology? And so I get into some of those conversations. Do you like Richard Hayes' moral vision of the New Testament? Is that kind of the classic new Testament? When I think new Testament ethics, I just, that's kind of where my mind goes, but. Yeah. I remember writing like a 50 books, every pastor should read.

And I think I put that on there just as just an obvious, you know, how to think about, okay, ethics isn't just, Hey, here are a bunch of rules in the Bible, so obey them. It's about how we're shaped like virtue and the way our minds are shaped and our hearts. And Hayes goes in that direction. The moral vision is all about shaping our imaginations so that we live in certain ways, we cultivate certain virtues and values. And he focuses on the cross, new creation, And he focuses on the cross, new creation, and the church community. And I feel like those are really well-rounded values that shape who the people of God are.

So our ethics is somehow related to those three kind of lenses, right? Yeah. So, you know, when we think of ethics, we sometimes think of like doing versus, you know, knowing. And there's a different way to look at ethics that's really you know the idea that if our if our mind and our and our imaginations are formed in certain ways by certain big ideas or the way we look at the world that's naturally going to lead to behavioral change and so instead of telling a kid stop stop doing that, you know, you got to sit down with them and say, okay, here's how your actions are, you know, affecting other people. You know, moral vision is trying to say the way we think about reality, the way we think about

truth, the way we think about God in the world, that's going to lead to how we live. And, you know, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. All right, let's shift gears. So last November, there was the Evangelical Theological Society's annual meeting. And did you attend that? And why and why not? The ETS? Leading question. Yeah, I did not. You know, I was a member back in seminary of the Evangelical Theological Society.

I mentioned to you earlier Edwin Yamauchi, who was my mentor in college. And Dr. Yamauchi was actually a former president of ETS. I mentioned that I got to know Walter Kaiser in seminary as the president of Gordon-Conwell. And Walter Kaiser was a president of ETS, so I have no problem with the organization ETS. But over the years, I stopped going because there was a certain culture that was prominent in that atmosphere that felt very hostile towards views and people that didn't fit within a certain norm. views and people that didn't fit within a certain norm. I lean more Wesleyan in my theology, and ETS tends to lean more Reformed. And, you know, just as a, you know, if the listeners, you know, don't quite understand for my name, I'm not white, I'm Indian American.

And, you know, I'm dark-skinned, and I go to these conferences, and if it's virtually all white people, I mean, there's nothing wrong with white people. Some of my best friends are white, but I can feel like I'm on the outside. Okay. And I've talked to women in the past who go to these societies, these conferences, and they feel marginalized. And, you know, this is not all in the name of being PC or anything like that. It's really just lived experience. And when you have other people like you that are at a conference, there's a sense of belonging.

And so I made a decision several years ago that I wouldn't go to the ETS conference, I made a decision several years ago that I wouldn't go to the ETS conference, not out of animosity, but just, you know, sort of wanting to see change until there was at least one woman, ideally more, on the leadership committee. And even historically, they haven't had many non-white people on that committee. Now, Edwin Yamauchi is not white, but in recent years, they haven't. And it just creates a certain culture because when I'm sitting in the audience of any major talk, I tend to be in the minority as a person of color. But if I see someone on stage as a person of color, I automatically feel a sense of belonging. as a person of color, I automatically feel a sense of belonging. Now, I don't want to marginalize anyone else, but just to have some variety and some representation there, it's a movement towards hospitality. I'm not expecting an all Indian executive committee.

That would be unnecessary. But what I would like to see is a thoughtfulness behind the leadership. Yeah. I teach at right now at George Fox University Seminary, Portland Seminary. And we've created a really amazing team here. We have a native Indonesian faculty member, Ekaputra Tupamahu. We have a native Moldovan slash Russian faculty member, Katerina Lomperis. We have a native Moldovan slash Russian faculty member, Katrina Lomperis. We have a Korean dean. In my opinion, we're the most diverse evangelical seminary in the United States.

And it is beautiful. No one's complaining about it. No one says, oh, why are all the white people? We have white faculty. They're excellent. But it's just a beautiful multicolored representation of leadership where I feel very safe and very comfortable. I feel like my I hope my white colleagues feel very comfortable as well. And there's no reason the academy couldn't be more like this.

Yeah. And so my hopes for ETS is, you know, I don't wish them any harm. In fact, I actually reached out to the board over email. Several of them are friends of mine, like Craig Keener. And I shared my heart and I said, you know, I would love to meet with you over Zoom and just talk through, you know, I don't want to be mean spirited. I don't want to be PC. I just want to feel welcome. And there are certain ways and certain things you can do to help make that happen. get asked to speak at ets all the time and i say no because i i'm in a place in my career where i can take a stand more easily and say i think things need to change you you could you get asked to speak present papers and stuff or yes yes okay if it's any consolation um i've

gotten every single paper rejected from ETS in the last seven years and I'm like but I obviously don't I don't even know if it's blind no it's not blind copied I don't think it should be blind I think it is the chairs know but not the people that vote

as far as I understand so maybe I'm not a good enough scholar for ETS what would you I guess several questions. What would you, what's the source? Because, I mean, you mentioned Craig Keener. I know for a fact he would have the same passion that you would. I can't think of the other ones on the board.

And some of them, maybe they don't. But what's, like, are they actively rejecting women and people of color or are they not intentionally being proactive at diversifying the board or yeah i'm glad you asked that question because i do want to make a clarification everyone on the executive committee i know virtually all of them they're all gracious warm-hearted people nothing but the best intentions. I'm going to tell you honestly, Preston, it's all about relationships. People will work with people they trust. I get asked to write a lot of things and serve on a lot of committees, and I'm very cautious and I only work with people that I respect and trust. And I've noticed just from

talking to my colleagues that are women, especially that they don't just want to do anything and everything that comes their way. They want to know it's going to be a welcoming, safe environment. Also, nobody wants to be the token minority or woman on a committee. Sometimes we do those things, especially if I get paid, but nobody wants to be the token. And yet that can happen because there are political forces behind some of that. I don't think that happens at ATS necessarily, but for book projects and things, sometimes people will say, oh, I asked a woman and no one said yes. But there may be a reason they didn't say yes, because they don't feel like there's that relationship there and that safety.

And I know for a fact that happens where people will say no because they don't have that feeling that this is going to be a context where I'm going to feel like people are listening to me. You don't want to be that person sitting in a room serving as a representation of gender or minority and nobody listens to you. So there's deeper kind of cultural things going on that might be a turnoff for people to be a part of that culture. Yeah, and a lot of this is subconscious and completely unintentional.

And I just want to say that out loud so it's clear. I think I mentioned to you when we talked back in November that one of my colleagues who's Native American Christian theologian, Randy Woodley, he introduced me to the concept of white normalcy. So white normalcy is, you know, there's this default setting where, you know, the white culture is kind of pervasive and it's hard for other people to kind of fit into that. And that leads to all kinds of biases, often subconscious. And I kind of said, I kind of shrugged that off and said, Oh, Randy, you're just you're just complaining. It's meaningless.

And he said, notice, Nije, when you go to the grocery store, when you're standing in the checkout line, all the other people are talking to each other, no one's talking to you. And so I did, I did that I started noticing, I noticed they weren't talking to me and they were all talking to each other. And I don't chalk that up to animosity or hatred or anything. I chalk it up to the fact there's just more comfortability with people that are like you. Yeah. Obviously someone is going to come and talk to me if they say, Oh, I have a son-in-law who's Indian or, you know, my neighbor's Indian.

And sometimes that happens. Yeah. Or can you translate this package of chicken? Right. Yeah. Where's the best indian restaurant i get that the most and i say indians eat at home um but you know that happens a lot and so it actually takes bigger decisions on a higher level to change things because they're not going to just going to change because you say you're not racist and i say i'm not racist right um that doesn't actually lead to change uh because they're not going to just going to change because you say you're not racist and I say I'm not racist. Right. That doesn't actually lead to change. I don't believe you're racist and I don't believe I'm racist, but there are certain forces at work that make it harder for people of color to get leadership opportunities, to get that interview they need to get a job, to get that book contract. And so I don't want the whole

committee to change overnight, but I do want there to be real intentional thoughtfulness about how this would actually transform a group of people and make them feel more welcome. Yeah. And people say, oh, but there are people presenting papers that are Indian or black or, you know, Hispanic. There are women serving on this committee or that committee. you know, Hispanic, there are women serving on this committee or that committee. But what I've learned over the years is the most permanent, most powerful way to affect change is at the level of leadership. So that's okay. So that was, that was my question was,

the number one thing is you need, we need to have leadership representation if we're going to expect any kind of cultural change because changing a nebulous, unintentional, almost hard to pinpoint culture is, how do you do that? But yeah, it makes sense that it has to happen at the leadership. And for it to happen at the leadership, it has to be intentional.

I remember I had one conversation in my entire life with John Piper and it was around race. It was actually fascinating. It was right after he wrote his book, Bloodlines, and he was talking about the need for, uh, people of color in, um, in church leadership, whatever. And I said, well, how did, how did the rest of your leaders feel about that? And he made an interesting statement. He says, well, they're okay with it. It's not like they're against having people to call on

leadership but they don't see it as kind of intrinsically virtuous to have necessary yeah because if it is then you go out of your way to not find somebody and i want to come back to this to the whole token thing but yeah you you do it because you believe that that brings intrinsic value to not just the leadership, but the shape of whatever it is, you know, you're leading. The token thing. So this is where from my as a white male trying to do what you're what you're encouraging me and others to do. How do we avoid it being perceived as a kind of a token thing? Like, for instance, I create videos around sexuality and I have panel discussions of sexuality.

And I'm constantly, when I'm trying to find somebody to have on a panel or in a video, my number one thing is, do you have anybody that's not white? Like, that's by far my preference but then it i just wonder when i ask somebody who's not white can be part of a video does it feel like because my motivation isn't the token like i think they they're oh sure their non-whiteness brings a certain perspective and that certain perspective in a white majority culture is intrinsically valuable. So my intention is in that, but then it's like, well, how could it come off that way?

And how do I avoid it feeling like that is my question. Yeah. And that's always the joke with like church posters. You have all these minorities in a poster and you go to the church and none of them are there. And you're wondering where these people come from. That's always like, there's a balancing act there, but you know, there's two issues. One is how you plan things. And I think, I think what you're doing is fine. It's the thoughtfulness. People are always going to judge you for this and that. Yeah. In terms of, you know, like for example, you invited me to speak on your podcast, uh, with you. And I don't think to myself, Oh, Preston wants me on the show because I'm Indian. That's because we have a friendship.

That's because we have a personal relationship. If you said, Nije, will you be on the poster for my podcast? Then I would think, okay, but that's going to cost you. No, but, you know, it has to be, there has to be a relationship there. And there has to be a friendship there. And the fact that you and I can sit down over a beer and talk and there's real, you know, you're not talking down to me and you're not tokenizing me, but we just, we just have a relationship. Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. And what I'm trying to do in the Academy is just really be a friend to people and to be

a bridge builder and to have conversations and, you know, people don't want to be used. Exactly. Yeah. People want to be in respect for relationship. And so, you know people don't want to be used exactly yeah people want to be in respectful relationship and so um you know some things you can control some things you can't in terms of a one and done like photo shoot or whatever yeah but as much as you can um you know make a personal connection with people yeah and um that you know and in the guild in particular, that requires investment. It requires really investing in people and not just including them, but respecting them as equals or as mentors. That takes time. Yeah. And that you have to earn that.

You have to earn that level of influence and impact and mutuality. Yeah, I had Lynn Koik on,, female evangelical scholar. I mean, rock rock star of a scholar. Um, she was on the show. We talked about this very thing and, and I've talked to a few other women at ETS and some of the, some of the stories they share, man, about just the, I would say, I, I almost want to say unintentional, but honestly, I might be a little too generous, but just the way they were subtly just kind of looked down upon you know um if they were standing next to a man you know the and somebody came up and started talking to them they would naturally just kind

of be talking to the guy and uh or they would ask you know so are you here with your husband or something assuming that if you're a female at ets you couldn couldn't be a scholar. And it's just ironic that somebody, and I don't think it was Lynn that had that, but I mean, I can only imagine how, yeah, I mean, she's an off the chart scholar for somebody to assume that she's not

qualified to be at ETS is comical. Or they'll ask them, do you have a PhD or, you know, the professor or Mrs. Versus doctor. Right. I hear these kinds of stories all the time. I think I mentioned to you, there's a professor friend of mine, female, young, you know, the professor or missus versus doctor. I hear these kinds of stories all the time.

I think I mentioned to you there's a professor friend of mine, female, young, you know, probably in her late 30s, early 40s. And teaching at an elite school, you and I would think is elite school. And students regularly come up to her first day of semester and say, can I help you write your syllabus or can I help you edit it? You know, they'll offer help as if the person needs help, whereas they wouldn't do that to you or me just as men, I assume, because this doesn't happen to our colleagues. So some of those things, again, you know, it's part of it's trying to step into someone else's shoes.

When I'm at restaurants and they say, what name should we give for the order? I always use my wife's name just because I don't want to spell my name 10 trillion times. People say, that's your fault for living in America. And I say, okay, I was born here. I don't know what to tell you. People say that's your fault for living in, do they say that? Yeah, that's something that sends that sentiment. Yeah.

But, or maybe I should change my name or whatever, but, um, you know, like it or not, we have to live with these things. And so, you know, it does affect our profession sometimes. And, you know, sometimes it helps. You know, people do want me to serve on committees and things. So I get that. But, you know, what I don't want is diversity for diversity's sake. Right. I want a really enriching diversity where everyone can feel welcome,

respected. And as I tell people, I just want to do my job to the best of my ability. I don't want a handout. I don't want extra money. Okay. I do, but I, that's not the main reason. I don't want more than Preston Sprinkle. I just don't want necessarily less because of the color of my skin or my name. Yeah, yeah. What about – I wonder going back to schools and maybe Christian evangelical schools of the, how do I say it, doctrinal statements that would resonate much more with like a white kind of evangelicalism. I just remember being on faculty at Cedarville University, very conservative evangelical school.

And I remember when we were going through the hiring process, and this is, again, a very white, very conservative evangelical school. But all of us on the hiring side of things were desperately wanting a person of color. Like we actively didn't, but hardly any of the ones I, in the stack of candidates, whatever, yeah, they couldn't sign a doctoral statement. You know, I'm looking back, I could even sign it back then. But, they couldn't sign a doctrinal statement. I'm looking back at how I could even sign it back then. But I don't know. I wonder because then we were like, well, hey, we won it,

but we also have to sign this doctrinal statement. But I don't know. I just wonder, and I truly wonder, is there an underlying problem there? Because, I mean, you're at George Fox. That's a lot more broader, right? I mean, it would be conducive for various traditions that – Yeah. I don't know, Preston. I have two minds about that.

On the one hand, like one of my best friends teaches at Moody Bible Institute, and they've had a pretty good track record of hiring people of color. They have a very conservative doctrinal statement, very quote-unquote narrow because of their history. I don't necessarily think it's that. I think number one, I've noticed region makes a big difference, what region you're in. If you're in a metropolitan city like Chicago or Portland or LA or Houston, there's going to be more opportunity to hire people that are going to find a home there and feel comfortable. So I think region makes a big difference.

That's been one of the big differences here is if people don't want to move to Portland, they don't want to move to Portland. Right. And that's something to think about. But at the same time, it's it is kind of a big city. So people can find a home here. I noticed a place like Ashland Seminary where, you know, where I'm from. Ashland's very small. It's rural. And you're going to have a home here. I noticed in a place like Ashland Seminary, where I'm from, Ashland's very small, it's rural, and you're going to have a hard time getting people from certain cultures to live there, I think. So perhaps in our stack of applications, there were a few ones from a person of color because they know, I mean, Cedarville literally had one black guy in the town and everybody knows him because he was a homeless guy that walked around.

He was kind of fried his brain early on or something. And he was the one guy it's like, well, who would want to live in a small little country town in the middle of Ohio? That would be my take. I mean, beggars, you know, can't be choosers in some ways, but that'd be my take. The other thing again is take. I mean, beggars, you know, can't be choosers in some ways, but that'd be my take. The other thing again is leadership. I mean, and connections and friendships. And if the person's coming in and it's all white male and, you know, you know, there's a comfortability factor there. I remember when I interviewed for a job at Messiah

College, this was like 10 years ago. And I was, it was my very first job interview ever. And they put on my schedule, this, all the people I was on the schedule were very clear and obvious search committee presidents. They put this one person on there and didn't explain what the meeting was for. And I realized it was the, you're going to be a minority here at this institution. I'm a minority too. Let me tell you that you will survive. And I was really surprised that they had to go to this length of having me meet with another minority scholar to show that they're thought about this, but also to express it's going to be hard.

And it was a wake up call like, Oh, I didn't know that back then I was naive. I didn't know that there might be a downside to being a minority, teaching at a Christian college in a smaller town. And so that was kind of an awakening for me. Actually, in a second edition of a book I wrote called Prepare, Succeed, Advance, a friend of mine encouraged me to write a chapter on helping people of color and women to be really thoughtful about how they navigate the academy in their position and also advice to other people on how to create a more hospitable academy. And a lot of these things translate into church, Preston. The church struggles with similar kinds of issues in terms of leadership, in terms of representation, tokenism. It's all there in the church as well. I've heard the two slowest institutions to change are the church and the academy. And I felt that's true. Business

changes overnight, but the church and the academy are very slow. Sometimes that's good. In this case, that can be a problem. Yeah, no, totally. Well, man, thanks so much for your time. Oh, I want to mention, let's talk just briefly. You have a few more minutes? Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Are you allowed to talk about your current institution that you're going to? It's public, right? Yes, it is. So Northern Seminary, where Scott McKnight is. You're not moving there. You're going to be staying in

Portland, but teaching full time at Northern. And Northern, for those who don't know, has one of the most cutting edge kind of virtual or distance programs. Like it's just really solid. Can you talk a little bit about that and why you decided to go to Northern? Yeah. So I currently teach at Portland Seminary. I'll continue teaching here until the summer, like end of May 2020. And then I'll switch over to Northern Seminary. Northern is based in Chicago area. But we've worked out a great arrangement where I can live here. My wife works here and my family settled here,

but I would fly to Chicagoland for one week intensives where I work with students in the Master of Arts in New Testament. And I really work very closely with them. I'll also teach a doctor. They have a really great doctor of ministry program because they have a doctor of ministry in New Testament context. It's the only type, that type of doctor of ministry I know of where you can really dig into New Testament context and backgrounds. I love that. There's nothing I get excited about more than talking about the world of the New Testament. It's an area that pastors get really excited about, you know, the life around the world of Jesus, the journey of Paul and the things that he encountered. So I get really excited about that.

I'll also teach online that, like you mentioned, they have a great live program where you actually see the faculty face-to-face for, you know, an extended period of time each week over Zoom and get to engage just like you and I, Preston, are engaging right now and have conversations. It's not canned. It's not recorded on videos that you just watch every year. You have real interactions with faculty from a distance. So they have students in Europe. They have students all over the United States. And so it just makes for a really great worldwide classroom. Wow. So like tons of different countries represented. I mean,

I think so. I mean, I've, I've engaged with some of their students in Europe and it's really kind of cool to have that Canada obviously is as with some of their student body as well and all over the country, California, East coast.

So it's a really neat and you know, as you know, education is changing. So this kind of stuff is becoming more normal and I'm really looking forward California, East Coast. So it's a really neat, and you know, as you know, education is changing. So this kind of stuff is becoming more normal. And I'm really looking forward to it. So somebody can get a Master of Arts in New Testament or D-Min all distance and then have to maybe fly in for a couple intensives? Yeah, you have to fly in for intensives every now and again. But you can stay in your job, you can stay in your context. You don't have to move and it's really affordable. They have a great, um, they have great tuition, uh, uh, opportunity there. And, and, you know, I mean, you asked why I would do it. I just jumped at the chance to work

with Scott. I've read Scott's work for years and years and years. I cut my teeth in Christian living on Jesus Creed. So that just stands out in my mind, but also the King Jesus gospel has just had a big impact on me. And then he's written many excellent commentaries recently, Sermon on the Mount, Colossians, Philemon. So I'm just looking forward to hanging out with Scott Moore. Cool, man. That's awesome. So yeah, you guys look up Northern Seminary. Just Google it. I'm sure you could find it. But if you're looking for, I mean, high quality seminary education from a distance would definitely check it out. I had Scott on the show, I think about a year ago, and we're talking about it. And yeah, he's a hoot, man. I just love his ability to bridge the

gap between the Academy and the scholar without losing the Academy and the church without losing one or the other, you know, because sometimes people that bridge that gap, it's, and I know this because I feel like I'm in similar spaces. It can be easy to get lazy on the academic side. And he just doesn't do that. No, he, you know, he may have learned this, but his blog just moved to Christian today. And so he's even more going to be of a,

of a widely read voice in Christian life and ministry and biblical stuff. And he's still a rigorous biblical scholar, which I appreciate too. He hasn't kind of softened that. He's just wrote a great book called reading Romans backwards. But you know, I, that's my heart too, is to bridge these things and to be writing interesting and useful things for pastors, for everyday Christians. But I do,

I do the occasional academic thing as well. Yeah. Yeah, totally, man. Well, Hey, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Row. Where can people look you up? Do you have a website or a blog or you have a blog? I have a blog. If you just search my name, it's called Crux Sola. It's a statement from Luther. But if you just look up my name and Google it, you'll find me, my blog there. And I'm on social media, Twitter and all that. So just, you could find me. I'm one of the only Nije Gupta's out there doing stuff on social media, I think. I Googled Nije Gupta and all the hits were all you. So yeah, you're not,

your parents branded you well. Yeah, I mean, I know from experience. You Google my name, I'm sure you're not going to get a whole lot of different Preston Sprinkles. Hey, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Row, man. Really appreciate it. And God bless you and your academic work and your church work and all that you have going on, man.

Thanks, Preston. Appreciate it. All right. Take care. you