Theology in the Raw - 795: #795 - A Christian Response to the Death of George Floyd: Justin Giboney

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

The death of George Floyd has sparked many questions related to race relations, systemic racism, the use and abuse of force and power among the police force, faith and politics, partisanship, and many other questions. To help us think through these questions, I recently interviewed Justin Giboney from the AndCampaign in a live YouTube conversation, and this podcast is the audio version of that conversation. Justin Giboney is an attorney and political strategist in Atlanta, GA. He is also the Co-Founder and President of the AND Campaign, which is a coalition of urban Christians who are determined to address the sociopolitical arena with the compassion and conviction of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mr. Giboney has managed successful campaigns for elected officials in the state and referendums relating to the city’s transportation and water infrastructure. In 2012 and 2016, Georgia’s 5th congressional district elected him as a delegate for the Democratic National Convention and he served as the co-chair of Obama for America’s Gen44-Atlanta initiative. A former Vanderbilt University football player and law student, Justin served on the Urban League of Greater Atlanta Board of Directors. He’s written op-eds for publications such as Christianity Today and The Hill. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I know the last several days have been so difficult and confusing and maddening and frustrating for so many people, and we just need help to think through the events surrounding the death of George Floyd, all of the things that have happened prior to that event, the things that have happened following that event. And so to help us process everything going on in our country right now, I've invited Justin Giboney to be on the show again. He's a returning guest. Many of you might remember when he was on the show last year.

And he's just an amazing thinker. year, and he's just an amazing thinker. I love his sensitivity to our cultural moment, to politics, to the intersection between faith and culture. And in this episode, he just does a phenomenal job helping us think through our cultural moment right now from a gospel-centered Christian perspective. So please welcome back to the show, the one and only Justin Giboney. All right. Hey, friends. I'm here with my friend, Justin Giboney. Justin is a lawyer, a political strategist. Is that right, Justin? And you also have been working for the AND campaign for a while. We can skip all the background and everything. People can Google you, look you up. Um, I would just love to start by having you, we, we didn't prepare this really. I just reached out to you a couple of days ago, said, Hey, would you be willing to chat

live on my YouTube channel? I know a lot of people are looking for guidance, uh, help to sort through the many layers of just complexity and, and pain and everything. so i would love to just hear from you man how are you how are you doing how are you reflecting on just the last week really um yeah it's tough uh as you know preston well first of all thanks for having me man i'm glad to be on here and have the opportunity to speak to some folks. But it's been tough. You know, I'm in Atlanta, and Atlanta had a pretty big riot this weekend. And so, you know, not that far from me. I'm probably about a mile from downtown, if that. And so it's real, right? It's not something that I'm

seeing from afar. It's something that I'm seeing up close and just trying to work through it. And our thing at the end campaign is just maintaining what we've said before, right? I think one of the problems is, you know, people say one thing in times of, when times aren't so kind of tense, and something else when times get tense. And so we're just trying to, you know, we're trying to tell people, look, you have to be engaged, you have to care, you have to mourn with the mourning, but you also have to maintain a biblical standard when you do that. So most of our time has been kind of putting messaging out there, putting content out there to help Christians think through this from a biblical point of view.

When you saw the video of George Floyd, I mean, disturbing would be an understatement. What went on through your mind, your heart? How did you process that? I was heartbroken, man. You know, anytime you see something that was completely unnecessary, that did not have to happen, that should not have happened, were people doing their jobs and were people treating everyone the same. in their jobs and more people treating everyone the same. And so it's just heartbreaking to see somebody lose their life at any time. But when it happens under those circumstances, it's just really rough in the context of everything that's been going on for these, what, this last month. It's just been a hectic month. Well, longer than that, I guess. I mean, even when you put the, you know, COVID-19 crisis into it, it's just been a hard few months for the world, you know, COVID-19 crisis into it. It's just been a hard few months for the world, you know, for our nation in general. And I think Christians just have to find a way to speak into this moment

and not get carried away by the moment. And then, I mean, after the video, I mean, protests are happening and then those, a lot them begin begin peaceful and i think completely justified but then now they're turning violent and then and then you have just a lot of complexity you have largely white antifa you know acting out in violence and i've heard i haven't seen as much but you have the far right alt-right or white supremacists involved in in there's just a complexity in in the the protests the violent protests in particular the looting everything how help us think through that how do we process all that i mean on the one hand i understand the frustration like I, well then I don't understand it. I I'm trying to understand the emotional, um, the, the, the, the, the, what leads up to something like that. Um,

at the same time you see the, the, there's never, I mean, I don't think there's ever a time for violence, even in protesting violence. Um, I'm very much with MLK on that. How, how, how are you processing the aftermath of George Floyd and all the stuff going on? Yeah, it's real. You know, the thing that I'm trying not to focus too quickly on, although I'm not ignoring it, is the reaction. I think we do make a mistake if we jump to the reaction before we really dig into the cause. Right. What caused these people to to go out and do this?

And so, you know, we can look at what happened to George Floyd, but then we have to just look at the history of it altogether. And why is it that, you know, black people are treated differently by law enforcement? Why has that been the case throughout American history? So if we don't start there, I'm afraid that we, or if we don't stay there for a little while, maybe that's a better way to put it. I'm afraid that we jumped too quickly to the reaction, but the reaction is a product of something much larger than what happened this weekend and what's really still happening in the streets. And so I want all Christians really to take some time to focus in on the but for cause of this, which is, you know, America's sin of racism and how it has really

changed just how we look at one another, how we go back and forth and how we treat one another in life-threatening situations. And so I, you know, I always kind of want to stay there for a second so that we can understand these protests. And I will make a distinction between the protests and the riots, that these protests were necessary and called for, right? The idea that people would go out and say, this cannot continue to happen. We're not going to just sit here silently while people die and society doesn't see still doesn't seem to comprehend what's happening and where we're going wrong. So I think those protests are important. And I think in the Bible we see protests. I think, you know, when there's injustice or when somebody is trying to force you into unrighteousness, Christians always have to distinguish themselves in a society like that, whether it's Daniel or any others that protested. Anytime something happens and it's unrighteous or unjust, we have an obligation to separate ourselves from that and to bear witness.

Right. And to profess the truth and the love of our Savior, Jesus Christ. So those protests, to me, make sense that they were necessary. And I want people to really focus in on why people would go into those protests. And guess what? Protests can be loud, right? They can be, you know, emotional. That's not, you know, I'm not calling for respectability at any point. I think you have to get out there. And if you're emotional and if it hurts and if it disrupts society a little bit, that's what happens. That's kind of part of the deal. There is a line to be drawn, though, because I think Christians should be mourning with all the people that are mourning. But we never mourn as those who have no hope. And I think when you look at the riots, you see you see a more of a hopeless situation.

Right. You see those who have just lost the kind of aspiration and the hope that things can get better. And that's what Christians, I think, have to stay away from. We do not put, you know, we don't want to put innocent people in harm's way. Christians, when we do protest, we don't do it according to our own standards. We do it according to the standards of our father

because we're doing our father's work. And until Christians see that justice is absolutely our father's work, then we will either apply our standards to it or we won't address it at all. And I think that's really kind of got to be the focus of what we're talking about. But I won't deny that there were some unfortunate and regrettable things that happened when the protests turned violent. And I feel sorry for those protesters who were trying to do it the right way, who were loud, who were emotional. But they were trying to uphold a standard of dignity for themselves and for others. And unfortunately, it got out of hand. And I think, President, I think we're still trying to figure out. And it may take a while exactly who some of the provocateurs were.

exactly who some of the provocateurs were, you know, what was the, you know, how many provocateurs were there and debate and in comparison to people who were just trying to to get it right. That's something that we're going to have to figure out. I do ask Christians because even unfortunately, even for some, you know, major media sources, there's just information that's not accurate coming out. So I don't I don't know exactly what the accurate information is, but I would ask Christians to be careful what you retweet. I've seen Christian leaders retweet, you know, gifts and all that stuff that were just inaccurate,

that were just somebody threw something together to inflame people, and we're putting that out there. Just chill out. You don't have to always respond immediately. You can respond with, you know with saying that you're mourning, talking about injustice, but you don't always have to get into the details if the details aren't clear. And so don't be afraid to step back and say, let me make sure I can verify this is real before I just put a message out there that can make things work. That's a great word. I mean, that's been the approach I've really taken, especially in the last couple of years. Sorry, your face is all over my, I got you here,

I got you there. So people see me looking around, wherever I'm looking, I'm looking at Justin, even if it looks like I'm darting around. So let me just talk to you. I think you're looking at me here. So I'm glad you said that. That's been the approach that I've taken because we have seen so many things that come out. Everybody reacts. And then when more evidence comes out, you're like, oh, it was it was more complex than that. And as we know, media outlets are typically very biased in one direction or the other. And they're going to promote a narrative, not necessarily the facts. And then as more facts come out. So i've been really cautious especially on twitter twitter twitter's not real life i mean it's a snapshot of it's a slice of life and i and i i do um yeah i would i would echo your warning let's just step back before we react and let's

let's be you know get our facts straight before we react I, and I also don't want to say don't react like you guys, you were saying before. I mean, I think it is absolutely legitimate to protest and even protest emotionally. And obviously maybe it's obvious to some, obviously I don't think violent protests is there's ever a place for that. Um, how, so, um, in some of these videos, I mean, I spent gosh, last several days, just looking at videos, just trying to get my arms around this. I saw several videos and this is all anecdotal. I don't know if this is the majority, if these are isolated cases, but I saw several videos of white. Sometimes it was Antifa, you know, white people dressed up in all black looting and they were being rebuked by black peaceful protesters. There's this one really moving one where a black woman, you know, you have two white women spray painting looting stuff.

You know, Black Lives Matter, which seems like, well, it seems like the motivation might be good. I don't know. But then you have a black woman saying, stop doing that. We're going to get blamed for that. We're not here to loot. We're not here to vandalize. You're giving us a bad name. And the white women who think they're standing up against racism start talking back to her. And like, well, this is so utterly confusing.

As you've looked at the protests, let me ask you this. How do you feel when you see white people protesting this? As you've looked at the protests, let me ask you this. How do you feel when you see white people protesting this? Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? What should be the response from the white community to a racially charged situation? No, I would invite the white community into that conversation. I would invite the white community into that conversation, because if we are all brothers and sisters, if injustice to me matters to you, then you should be involved. But you got to you got to, you know, look how you get involved and how you go about it. So you don't necessarily go into someone else's context and try to take over. You certainly don't go in someone's context and try to be destructive.

context and try to be destructive. And that's, you know, and that's kind of what we're seeing is people using a legitimate issue and then taking it to manipulate it, exploit it for their own agenda. And that's what should happen. That's always a risk with any type of disruption, with any type of protest. There's always that risk. And I think when there's a little more clear leadership and people know who the leaders are and they know what the tone has been said and all that, you can kind of avoid that to some extent. But I would invite people to share in the protest, to be shoulder to shoulder with those who are really trying to make change. There's nothing wrong with that. nothing wrong with that. But when you bring your own agenda or you come in trying to lead something that's not, you're not a part of, you know, that you, that is not primarily in your community, that does become problematic. And so, you know, you know, just to kind of repeat what you said, you know, I live in, I live in, you know, Atlanta in the inner city. And when people come here and

they destroy things, they can go back home sometimes, but we have to live here. Something that I was talking about to my boy, Show Baraka, about earlier, I guess it was yesterday. In a lot of areas, like in my area, there's not a whole lot of grocery stores. So if you vandalize or burn down the grocery store, there are people that don't have a car to get to another grocery store, right? You're putting people in a really, really bad situation. And that's the problem when you come in and you don't have any equity in a community, you don't live in a community, but then you destroy it, right? And too much of that was going on all around the country.

And it's unfortunate. So again, I think that people should speak up, white, black or whatever. I think people should speak up. I think they should say something. I don't think you have to watch a video that's clearly wrong and that you clearly see somebody getting killed and not say anything at all. That's not what I'm saying. So you should speak up. You should get involved. But there's a context and there's a way to do it, especially when you're dealing with a community that has leaders that has an agenda and kind of let, you know, kind of be there and support, not necessarily to push your own agenda forward. Yeah. Earlier you said that, you know, rather than just looking

at the protests, we need to get behind what's the cause of all this. So I got, I guess, two questions. One, when you see people most i i i'm gonna stay away from broad brushing as much as they can okay it's never helpful but it's mostly white conservatives okay and nothing against white conservatives but mostly white conservatives it seems like are reacting very much against the violent protests and rightly so but when that's not also supplemented or complemented with also being concerned about the the underlying roots of all of this stuff is that is that what's frustrating to you when it's like they're only picking certain things to react against and not addressing other root causes of this

um i guess that's my one really long question. Love your thoughts. I see where you're going. I see where you're going. I think the issue is anytime you want to address something, you should probably address its core, right? And so if you're not addressing its core, but you're addressing something that helps your narrative, then that's different, right? There's a reason why people avoid the systemic issue, the racist issue, the race issue, and jump to the protests and the issues with that, is because the racism and the history of America

isn't good for their narrative. And I think people on both sides like to pick and choose what's best for their narrative and focus on that. In this particular case, especially for Christians, if we actually want solutions, right? If we actually wanna see some type of redemption and healing, then it would behoove us, it would make sense that we would focus on the core issue

and focus on the cause. That's not to say that we need to dismiss any type of violence and just kind of the senselessness that we saw in some of these cities. But if you if you really want to make a difference, focus on the core, then we can have that second conversation because the second conversation doesn't happen in the same way without, you know, the initial cause. And so that's what that's what we've been saying. I think for Christians, if we're going to be intellectually honest, that's how we should approach it. If we're going to be intellectually honest, that's how we should approach it. But on the other side, it's not intellectually honest either to act like everything that went on was all about, you know, George Floyd.

That's not the truth either. And so we just need to be honest and we need to be prayerful and address what's in front of us and not what we would want to see. So how by the second question is, how would you unpack the cause then? Mm hmm. So how by the second question is, how would you unpack the cause then? I want to hear from you, like help us to understand what is the cause that the cause of all this that needs to be addressed alongside addressing the violent protests? Yeah, I think the cause is racism. I think the cause is racialized violence where because of the history in America and how we've painted African-Americans specifically, people do not see our suffering the same way. People see us as a threat and they'll see us as a threat until that threat is extinguished. And sometimes that means that it's death, right? And so it's how we talk about certain groups, especially African-Americans. It's how we engage them. And it's how we allow our institutions to maintain those those issues. Right. And to almost perpetuate some of those issues.

And so if I were going to talk about, I would say the first thing you always have to start with awareness. I used to assume that people understood the history of it. And I think most people understand, yeah, things weren't right racially in the past. I don't think they understand how deep that was and how ingrained in our system and in our legal system that has been, in our criminal justice system, how ingrained it has been. And so I always tell people to start with the education side, the awareness side, to make sure people really know what was going on. And then you have to talk about relationships and building relationships, but you also have to talk about policy and how our policy to this day allows these things to continue. So you can talk about qualified immunity when it comes to police officers, which kind of guards them from kind of being civilly liable for some of this stuff. We

can have those conversations, but eventually it goes to a policy conversation. Because I think we know as Christians within this context, loving someone and loving words are great, but loving someone often means action and doing good deeds and looking out for their welfare. And that can only happen when we're addressing the issue head on. Yeah. Thank you for that. I want to ask a few, if I can say, hard questions. These are questions that some people may not even be – they might be scared to even ask. But I know these are questions that are in people's minds. And I'm just a big fan of just, hey, if you got a legitimate question, ask it. I've heard some people say – these aren't necessarily coming from my own heart, but I see it out there. I would love your thoughts on it. I've heard some people say – in the case of, say, George Floyd, clearly it's police brutality.

There's no – I don't know a single person that hasn't said it was an unjust use of force. That should never have happened. But is there evidence that it was racially driven? Do we have evidence that, and that's kind of hard to say, right? I mean, racism is largely the motivation. We know the cop who did that, his partner is not white. I think a couple of cops there weren't white. Is there evidence that he was misused power specifically toward black people in the past? Like what evidence do we have that it was racially driven, not just evidence of an unjust use of force?

No, that's a great question. And I'm honestly nervous as a white guy. It's just almost some people would say you're racist for even asking the question. I'm like, well a white guy. It's just almost some people would say you're racist for even asking the question. I'm like, well, I, you know, I saw a video of a bunch of black guys beating the crap out of a white guy. I don't know if that's racially driven. It might just,

maybe the guy happened to be white and he happened to do something to them and they beat the crap out of him. I don't, to just say something is racially driven. I do. I don't know. I, I do want to at least have evidence for that. I don't know. You can always ask me any question. I'm going to answer the question honestly. You may not like the answer, but you can ask me any question.

I don't play that game. I think if we're going to communicate, we've got to be open to being asked the tougher questions. We're going to communicate. We've got to be open to being asked the tougher, the tougher questions. And I would say this. I think we make a mistake if we think that saying something was racialized means that it was explicit. Right. Means that he was saying the N-word or that he just pulled him over because he was black. That's part of that's part of why we have to understand this as a problem of system and a problem of institutions and a historical problem. Because the fact of the matter is a lot of the deaths that we saw within the last month simply don't happen hardly ever or as much to people who aren't African-American. Right. There's a there's there's something behind that.

So I'm not saying that the officer said, oh, he's black. Let me call him the N-word. Let me make sure that I treat him this way specifically. And he thought it through this way. But some of this stuff is subconscious. Right. Where you treat people differently. You see their pain differently than you see other people. You treat them more harshly. Whether you're doing that explicitly or not, whether that was your exact intent or not, that is actually what is happening. And so that's why we say that it's racialized. It may not be directly racially motivated, meaning that the whole situation started based on the person's race. But the outcome, if we look at these desperate outcomes and how this happens more often to African-Americans, to deny that there may be a racial aspect to this, I think, is intellectually dishonest if we look at all the facts. Okay. Another hard question. You know, this – well, not just this week, but the last several years have raised questions about systemic racism, especially among the police force. And are black people targeted more often than white people?

And are they killed more often by police? And in my look at the studies, you have mixed kind of findings, depending on what questions you ask. I mean, clearly, statistically, you know, black people are killed more often by cops than white people are. That's just a statistical fact. And yet people will say, well, that's because they're committing violent crimes at a higher percentage. And I don't I don't actually know the stats on that. But then I read another recent study that said, well, we do also have to ask a question about what is the race of the police officer? I mean, I think that's a really good question. At least one or two recent studies, I think one out of University of Maryland and none, I forget where the other one's out of,

of maryland and none i forgot where the other ones out of says they say that um the that while black people are killed more often by cops the race of the cop um is just as diverse so that a white cop is no more likely to kill a person of color um than a cop of color. Like it's not just like white cop on black. It's all cops of all colors on people of color. Have you looked into that? Or I'm just trying to sort through this and you're the lawyer, so help me out here. Yeah, my understanding is African-Americans are treated more harshly in general.

Many times it's a white cop, but it's not always a white cop. And I think, again, that speaks to the system, right? That speaks to institution and how certain people are treated. And sometimes even those things are internalized by people in authority who are African-American or who are other people of color. That does happen. I don't think it justifies it. And so I think what we have to watch out for when we get some of these statistics again, and when we're trying to further a narrative is letting an exception or letting something that that complicates, you know, the situation a little more, allow us to dismiss the overall problem. Right. And that's my problem. When we get this. So we can have a conversation. I don't run from those facts. I don't run from the numbers or the, you know, the demographical, you know, things that you just just mentioned.

But when we allow that to carry us away and we ignore the bigger problem, that's what I see as the as the issue. So I think the bigger problem is, in general, African-Americans are treated more harshly. general, African-Americans are treated more harshly. And we saw a perfect example of that, a sad example of that with George Floyd. You just don't see that happening to, for instance, to a white woman, right? And there are white women who commit crimes. I'll also tell you that the majority of the African-American community are not criminals. So especially from a Christian point of view, we should be, if we're looking at it from a standpoint of compassion, if we're looking at it from a standpoint of redemption and reconciliation, we should be open not to maintaining our narrative, but to getting to the core of the

problem. If we're focused on that, then I think we do see this as a problem, even if it's a little more complicated than a very simple narrative would allow. One more hard question. This comes, again, I hear it from mainly, I don't want to say just white, I would just say conservatives in general. They would say, okay, they would admit there is systemic racism. Maybe some would, yes, there's evidence of some racially driven unjust use of force among the police. But we see a way higher percentage of, say, black-on-black homicide in Chicago or whatever. I think I know what you're going to say about that, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. to that saying the problem of, say, black on black homicide is a way bigger issue than, you know, a white cop abusing power towards a black, you know, a black person.

Yeah, I think that I think the difference is the word that you just use. It's power, right? It's someone in authority that is abusing their authority. That does not mean that black on black crime isn't a problem. Right. But when you see people in authority using that authority, that using that authority and abusing that authority and taking life based on that authority, that's that's the issue that people are really, really addressing. And if we remove it from that historical context, then, of course, we can come up with many reasons just to say, you know what, black people must be inferior because all they do is this and that. Well, let's look at what a lot of these folks have been through and the situations that some of these folks are in. You want to talk about Chicago? Do you want to talk about the housing conditions that many of these people live in? Do you want to talk about job opportunities? Do you want to talk about educational opportunities? When people are living in those type of environments, it is going to be a more violent situation. It is going to be a harder situation. And we don't

dismiss that. If you talk to African-American clergy, they care about black-on-black crime. In fact, they're out there dealing with it all the time. They're dealing with it in their congregations. You think they just dismiss it and don't care about it? That's more of an internal conversation that we're having and is being had. But when we're addressing people in authority and how they're using their authority on people who are in very tough situations, that's just a different conversation. You can't get out of a historical context. So I never run away from the black crime conversation because people are losing their life

and a life is a life, right? But nobody's ignoring that. We're just addressing a different situation that involves power and how we're treating people with less power. And are we addressing the disparities that lead people into those situations? Both are terrible,

but don't use one to dismiss the other. I think that's just not a compassionate response. To me, that's someone trying to deny any possible responsibility as a citizen of this country. We all have a level of responsibility for that. And don't try to maintain that perfect narrative. It's just not there. That's a good word, man. We have several viewers who are tuning in right now. If you have any questions, go ahead and type them out, and I'll try to figure out how to address those.

Somebody tuning in just says it's awesome to have the and campaign on uh so you got some fans out there justin um so yeah if you have any questions go ahead and type them in and i'll shoot them over to justin um yeah what you said at the end there i think um or can you speak into not just systemic racism but systemic poverty because i think that plays a role too doesn't it i mean if we care say we compare you know south chicago with um i forget the name of it but there's a a largely black neighborhood in maryland that's upper middle class it's wealthy and they don't have any there's like no crime there and so it's not just like when you have a largely black neighborhood you're going to have crime i think there's systemic poverty that plays into here and housing and redlining there's just

so many layers here that again people, people like me, I think, have taken this a long time to kind of get our minds around because we haven't had that experience written into our stories. What role does systemic poverty play here? I mean, it plays a huge role. I mean, when you have to worry about just eating, you have to worry about substandard housing and just the health issues that come with that. We can talk about health disparities. When you have all

these stresses and all this trauma that's around you at all times, you're going to be, you know, you're going to most likely, you're going to be more likely to react differently, maybe even to react violently. And so that's why I just get to Christians who dismiss those things and want to jump right to the crime or right to the violence. Where's your compassion? Right. But for God's mercy, you could be in the same situation. You could be the person pulling the trigger. But for God's grace, not because you're superior. And when we realize that, we get to a point where we can say, oh, man, maybe I should have more compassion and see what it would and try to understand what it would feel like to be in that situation. And so for me, for Christians to dismiss people's pain, dismiss people's poverty, dismiss health disparities and just jump to the narrative that help makes them look perfect. that help makes them look perfect is problematic for me because what I do know in reading the gospel is that people who went to Jesus and thought they were

better than other people and thought they had it all worked out and that they had everything figured out, they didn't walk away from Jesus feeling that way. So take the time to understand that you may just be in a more privileged position and it may be hard for you to understand these situations. That doesn't make the situations right. But everyone has brokenness. Sometimes when you have power, sometimes when you're in kind of the protected class, your brokenness doesn't come out the same way.

People who are in private situations don't have that kind of buffer. And so we need to understand that and really address it systemically. I just can't tell you how helpful that is to hear that. I mean, I think that's, it's so incredibly important. I mean, on a much lower scale, I mean, you're married, right? Justin, I mean, anybody in like a marriage relationship or any relationship to see if somebody blows up or gets angry at you, if you just react to that and think, well, you shouldn't be angry. It's like, well, why are they angry they angry like what's the source of this thing i mean you can't last in a marriage relationship or even a friendship if you don't try to take some consideration of what's under what's lying beneath the surface what's leading to this this uh reaction all right we have some

questions coming in um uh and i don't i don't even know not screening these, man. So if they're just offensive, yeah, I won't say about it. Okay, so police on black crime has been happening for longer than black on black crime. It's a statement. Is that police on black crime has been happening for longer than black on black crime? I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I could go to the next question. Okay,'s a question i think yeah i think go ahead go ahead no you go ahead yeah i was saying that i think the point that they're making is that violence from authorities on black bodies have been going on since we came you know since we've

been in this country um and you might think about how that may cause, and the breaking up of African American families and all that stuff, you may want to think about how that might cause people to be in a more precarious situation, a more unstable situation, and how America has placed African Americans intentionally, over and over again, in unstable situations. That's a good word. What can we do as the church in America to combat systemic racism? I mean, that's the question everybody should be asking right now. What can we do as a church to combat systemic racism? You've got to talk about it, for one. You've got to bring people in who are biblical,

but they can talk about it in a way that's not going to necessarily make you comfortable, but is going to inform you and is going to be aspirational. Ultimately, you've got to have those conversations, bring preachers and speakers in who will talk about those things in a biblical manner. But that may make you feel a little uncomfortable. Listen, we can't maintain our comfort and cure and heal this land. It's just not going to happen. And so we have to be prayerful. We have to build relationships with other people and we have to do what we can do inside internally. Right. So if you have a church, is your church giving voice to those people? If you have minorities in your church, are you giving voice to them? Do they feel like they, you know, have a say that you're listening to them and hearing them out? How are you treating them?

You know, when it comes to power matters, partnership matters? Have you reached out to an African American church in your community to see how they're doing? You may very well know that we have the Church is Helping Churches Challenge, where we were asking more financially stable churches to help, you know, smaller, mainly minority churches get through this COVID-19 crisis. Those are things that you can do, but we have to change the conversation and we have to at least have the conversation. And then we have to turn to policy, right? We have to look at our policies. We have to look at who we're supporting and we're putting in office. Who are the prosecutors and the judges

that we're voting for? Who are the sheriffs that we're voting for? And how do they conduct themselves? Our vote and our ability to advocate for certain policies is really where the rubber meets the road. And if we go about politics as Christians often have, and it's just about our self-interest, we're just looking out for our tribe and what we've called so-called biblical values, looking out for our tribe and what we've called so-called biblical values, then we're going to miss a whole lot of opportunities to pursue human flourishing and to really respect the dignity of a lot of people around us. Thank you for that. As you're talking, I was thinking, I mean, if the church can't represent and lead the way on being a truly multi-ethnic church, then we're going to lose our prophetic credibility to start

speaking into these things to the outside world, right? And we have to first model it on our own. And if our churches are still very segregated, which I think we're improving, but I still think there's much more work to do with ethnic or racial reconciliation within the church. And until we do that, I think, yeah, I think we're going to lose credibility. I'm sensitive to your time, Justin. We're coming up on 35 minutes. I got a couple more questions coming in here. How do you balance your commitment to Christocentric nonviolence with wanting to create long-lasting systemic change when peaceful protests don't always seem to be effective?

This might be directed at me or I don't know, maybe it's directed at you because I'm a fan of crystal centric nonviolence. You have any thoughts on that? I've got tons of thoughts on it. But yeah, I question the conclusion that nonviolent or peaceful protests aren't effective. I would seriously question that. I think that strategic, committed, consistent, nonviolent protests are effective. And in fact, there's a lot of things

that I wouldn't have been able to do today if Fannie Lou Hamer or Martin Luther King didn't have a sustained effort. I think the problem is not that peaceful protests are not effective, they're just not sustained. They're not strategic enough sometimes. And people just want to do something once. And if everything doesn't change, then they give up. I would say that sustained protest that's strategic is a lot more effective

than violent protest. I don't think it was necessarily the violence that is making people think about this. If people were in the street in a sustained manner and they were doing it continually, that would be extremely disruptive and effective. So I would push back on the idea that peaceful protest. Now, peaceful doesn't mean not disruptive, right? Peaceful doesn't mean that society moves along exactly how it would have. It doesn't mean that there might not be a traffic backup or that, you know, you may have some discomfort. In fact, it likely will bring discomfort to different people, right? But it's not violent. It's not burning things down and all that other stuff i would uh 100 agree with you and you can even back this up just

historically i mean obviously martin luther king is is the clear example um there's a book by ron cider i forget the name of it but he he goes back and looks at the whole last hundred years of violent oppressive dictatorships around the world that have been, that people tried to overthrow them violently, didn't work. And when they went to nonviolent revolts in almost every case, within sometimes a few days or a couple of weeks, the whole violent dictatorship is overthrown when there's nonviolent revolts. So we've seen time and time again that it's not only that it can work, it's been proven to be much, much more effective than violent revolts.

Let's see. And I would also add just quickly, make sure we define what winning is biblically. Because if we do something violently and even if we achieve an objective, did we win? And what exactly did we win? You keep bringing in this gospel thing, Justin. I don't know, man. This Jesus figure is disruptive. Can we write in Justin for POTUS in November? I'm going to answer that.

Yes, you can. Don't waste the time. Let's see. Can a little, one more more question i'll let you go justin i know you got you got a lot of uh important work to get to can a legit protester do anything to stop an antifa protester next to them who is doing violence this comes from a pastor friend of mine in in santa cruz county where i know um yeah, Antifa is very big in these kind of largely white liberal areas. So yeah, can a legit protester do anything to stop an Antifa protester next to them when they're acting in violence? Maybe. I think you got to be careful.

I mean, these people aren't necessarily being sensible. And so you may have a couple words, you may need to protect somebody else. And, you know, that's a decision that you have to make. But you want to be you know, you want to be safe without letting other people, you know, innocent bystanders get hurt. But in a lot of ways, sometimes that's just for the police to deal with. To some extent, you don't want to get you know, you don't want to be unprepared and kind of come into a situation where you didn't really help, but you really put yourself at risk. So it's hard to say. I don't know that there's a bright line. I would do my best to defend other people. But you have to be safe because some of these folks just aren't sensible. And that's where the authorities do need to enter into the conversation.

It's not always our job to prevent somebody from doing what we see some of these Antifa folks doing. You also have the body to be able to step in and do that, Justin. You're an ex football player, right? That's right. I would say the same thing. If you're not built like Justin, then you might want to think about whether you're going to put yourself in harm's way.

That's a great question. I don't know if I have anything to add to that. I mean, I think if you see somebody else being hurt by that violence, even if it comes at your own physical expense, I could see a space for coming in and nonviolently standing in that gap. But, yeah, that's a tough scenario. Justin, I'm going to let you go, man. I can't thank you enough for being on, man.

I just love what you guys are doing over at the AND Campaign. If those listening don't know about the AND Campaign, just Google it. But do you have a website they can go to to check you guys out? Because you guys are doing great work. Yeah, man. You can go to ANDCampaign, A-N-D, campaign.org. Or you can follow us at AND at and campaign on Instagram and Twitter. And Preston, I always appreciate you, brother, all the work that you're doing, the kind of

boldness and courage that you bring to those conversations, to tough conversations. So thank you for your work. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. And if you want to subscribe to my channel, I'm sure there's a subscribe button somewhere down there. So we'll keep these conversations going. Thanks a lot, Justin.

We'll talk to you later, man.