Theology in the Raw - 796: I Finally Discovered My Enneagram Number! A Convo with Enneagram Guru Jeff Cook

Episode Date: June 15, 2020

I've tried taking several Enneagram tests but I can never finish them. I hate the binary answers they give: When you walk into a room, do you want to dominate everyone or hide in the corner?" Ugh! What if it's neither!? That's why I reached out to my buddy Jeff Cook to have him give me a personal and conversational evaluation of my Enneagram score. Wait, is it a "score?" Or a number? I'm not a number, I'm a person! Don't put me in a box!! Whatever the Enneagram is, Jeff Cook is an expert in it. Watch him as he uses the force to draw out the inner me with all its grit and grime. After we find out my number, we turn to the biblical writers to see what number they are and why it matters. Yup, we even dare to figure out what Jesus is on the Enneagram. We haven't been struck down by lightening—yet. Jeff Cook teaches philosophy at UNC and pastors Atlas Church in Greeley, Colorado. He speaks about all things enneagram on the Around the Circle Podcast, and is the author of "Seven: The Deadly Sins and the Beatitudes" (Zondervan 2008). He lives in Colorado with his wife and two kids. You can connect with Jeff: Twitter | @jeffvcook Instagram| @aroundthecirclepodcast Spotify | bit.ly/AroundTheCirclePodcast Apple | bit.ly/AroundTheCircle Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

All right, friends, are you ready for this? This is a unique podcast because in it, you will see me, well, see me, you will hear me discover my Enneagram number in real time. I literally, I misnumbered myself. I've taken several online tests. Most of them I can't finish because I can't stand the binary either or questions they ask. When you walk into a room, do you want to dominate everybody or curl up in a corner? I'm like, well, kind of neither. I don't have to choose one of those. So I reached out to

my friend, Jeff Cook, who is a guru when it comes to the Enneagram. I said, hey, look, I want to know what number I am. I hate these tests. And he said, you know what, honestly, the best way to discover your Enneagram number is to have a conversation with somebody who knows the Enneagram and knows what they're doing. So I said, all right, let's do this. Let's just hit record. Let's have that conversation. And I want to discover my number in real time. That's what we're going to do on this episode. If you would like to watch our conversation, you can go to my YouTube channel, Preston Sprinkle, and there's loads of other videos that I keep uploading, um, sometimes almost every other day there. So if you would like more content to actually view, go to Preston Sprinkle, uh, you, my YouTube channel,

Preston Sprinkle. Um, what else? If you'd like to support the show, please visit patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. This is a listener supported podcast. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate the support of those of you who have been faithful listeners. I just, I love getting to know new supporters. They, you know, pop in usually every week or so you get a new supporter. If you would like to become new supporters that pop in usually every week or so. You get a new supporter. If you would like to become part of that community, you get access to premium content once a month, blogs and podcasts that only my Patreon supporters have access to. There's a lot more of Theology and Raw out there for good or for ill. It's just there and that's the way it is. So if you'd like

to support my show, patreon.com forward slash TheologygernonRaw. Okay, let's discover my Enneagram number and get to know the one and only Jeff Cook. Hello, friends. I am here with my friend Jeff Cook. I don't know if you know this Jeff, but I actually have two friends named Jeff Cook who live in Colorado. And I knew him longer than you. Do you remember how we met? I'm going to tell the story, but do you remember? I know that we started a conversation through, through the book you did with Chan. Yeah. That's my best recollection.

Go ahead though. Okay. So you were blogging on the doctrine of hell, uh, advocating for annihilation of hell on Scott McKnight's blog. I think you did like a three part series. Yeah. Advocating for Annihilation, View of Hell on Scott McKnight's blog. I think you did like a three-part series. Yeah. Somehow, this is like when I first even started to even know what a blog was and like social media.

And somehow I came across like, oh, Jeff Cook is working through Erasing Hell and all this stuff. And I jumped on. Long story short, at the time I didn't agree with you. Right? Come on. long story short, at the time I didn't agree with you. Right? But you, but it was, I mean, it was through reading your, your, your view of hell. I mean, advocating for annihilation and offering some, I think are helpful, really humanizing critiques of the book that Chan and I wrote that started me on a journey where

I ended up now, you know, now we're on the same page with hell, assuming you still are there. Or have you shifted at all? I am. I haven't done any work on hell since that. So, but yeah, you may be the only person that actually read my book on that, which was everything new. If the Lord Jesus wanted to speak to you through that two years of worth of work that i did and you were the one that was it's so weird how i mean you're a really good writer great thinker pastor that book is a really good book and i and i might just blow it smoke like and yeah you said

it's like sold hardly like nothing and it was put out by Zondervan, right? Like a big publisher? It got bought by Zondervan. It did not get put out by Zondervan. A handful of us got cut all at the same time. Another author at the time was writing on hell for Zondervan and also got cut. And later appeared on the Times 100 Most Influential People list. Who was that? That would be one Robert Bell.

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh. I catch the illusion. No, we were – yeah, the – they needed to figure out who they wanted to be as a publishing house. And, and, uh, I think writing books that were, that were, you know, questioning, um, some of the stuff that we were questioning at that time was, wasn't where they wanted to go. So, okay. So we moved on. We're not talking about hell today. I don't think we could, but, uh, probably not really interested in doing that.

But, uh, you, you reached out to me cause I mentioned something, I think it was on a podcast or posted something about the Enneagram. You're very knowledgeable of the Enneagram. Are you certified or anything official or are you just like know it? No. I've been – I got real into the Enneagram about four or five years ago. I teach philosophy at the University of Northern Colorado. in Northern Colorado, Ben, and the idea of motive in our thinking about ourselves, thinking about how we behave, that became real interesting to me. And so I've just really invested a lot of myself

in the last few years into Enneagram. And I love, obviously, since I'm a pastor and I love the Bible, the overlap there is something I geek out on. And your tweet just gave me an excuse to say, man, I would love to talk to somebody who knows about hermeneutics and has actually done real study into the writers of the scripture about this. So this is like fresh material for me, but I've always wanted to talk shop about, uh, Bible writer types. So we are, we are talking shop. We are thinking out loud. We're not writing anything in stone, but it is interesting. I think my team said something like, you know, I think most of the psalmists were Enneagram fours, you know, very, uh, very creative, artistic, maybe some, and i don't know much about the enneagram so if i say anything just please correct me i won't be offended at all but like

in enneagram four could have lots of highs and lows you know um maybe a um an unhealthy four would be maybe manic depressive would that be accurate to say like in the most unhealthy place or unhealthy force will come across as very envious and kind of self, um, real consumed with themselves. Um, that could be a two of the signs. You said come across, which makes me think that might not be an accurate assessment, but just more how they're portrayed. Is that? Yeah. So one of the things about Enneagram is Enneagram isn't about how the world sees you. It's about how you see the world, which is where typing can become kind of tricky, especially for people who are not in the room, because what you're doing is guessing how they see the world based on their behavior. So if you were wearing green glasses and I was

wearing blue glasses, um, and, and we both knew about the other colors and we were saying, and we started asking each other, well, how do you see this? How do I see this? That's more what the engrams like. It's how do you see the world? So we come to the world and experience the world, but some of us experience kind of a filter of fear. Some of us have a filter of shame. Some of us have a filter of anger in the way that the world strikes us and the way that we interpret the things out there. Enneagram goes in, the big idea for those not familiar is that this system called the Enneagram just wants to say something to the extent of, there's really just nine types of big things that everybody wants. Everybody could probably

get categorized into wanting one of nine big things. And those big things are we want to be good. We want to be loved. We want to excel. We want to be unique. We want to be knowledgeable. We want to be safe. We want to be on an adventure.

We want to be safe we want to be on an adventure we want to be in control and strong or we want to be at peace and that at the end of the day when we when the rubber meets the road we have to make a big decision um one of those motives will come out more than all the others okay and it affects how we see the world. I've always wondered, where did it come from? Do we know? Because the dates, the origins go way back, right? Of the Enneagram? I like thinking about the Enneagram like music.

If you look at music theory, you discover that there are 12 notes. Those 12 notes have been there. Okay. notes. Those 12 month notes have been there. And the, the way that the, the way that reality is structured, um, those notes are discovered across cultures. And what ended up happening with Enneagram is you, you see it emerging and being discovered in very different cultures at very different points in time. It's one of the reasons I think it pings for me as true. So, so, um, you'll see it in South America, but you also see it in Homer and you'll see it in references in the early Christian church when they start doing work on virtue and the deadly sins. Um, and it, it, it

just begins to show its face everywhere. How do you see it in Homer? Like what? Cause obviously he's not saying I'm an Enneagram four, but like what, what, what aspect of Enneagram is in Homer or the church? I need to look at that more, but I've heard tell from Chris here, it's that, um, who's a thinker on this, that the adventures of Homer break down into nine different adventures, and each of them correspond very cleanly to each of the Enneagram types. Okay, interesting. Okay, so we're going to get into the biblical authors, the Enneagram, and how this could possibly help us understand and even interpret biblical authors.

Before we did that, you promised that you were going to help me to discover my own Enneagram type. So here on Theology Narah Live, I have tried to take a few tests. The last time I tried, and apparently it was a really good test. It was a lengthy one. I just couldn't get through it because I felt like I wanted to say none of the above to the two binary questions that were thrown at me. Also, I've taken enough personality tests that i know the personality they're searching for so it's like you're

domineering you know versus passive aggressive whatever it is you know um and the question i i'm like i already know what they're trying to ask so i'm already feel like i can't it's already i'm already tempted to give an answer that you know of what i maybe want to be and not what i really am and i'm like most of these two questions i get are you this or that i'm like well i'm already tempted to give an answer that you know of what i maybe want to be and not what i really am and i'm like most of these two questions i get are you this or that i'm like well i'm neither of them like if those are two options i'm just going to say neither so it's hard for me to finish this test which may even give evidence for my time that i resist binaries i don't know well let's let's let, let's put that on, on the side. I would love to come back to why do you resist binaries once we get into this, but the, it

is the case for those listening to, uh, tests often are wrong about 60% of the time. Um, it's, it really is the case. A lot of, a lot of folks who get into Engram want to say it's best just to talk to people who've really been familiar with the system for a little while. Oh, really? Sometimes. Sometimes. That's not abnormal. Okay. No, it's really common for tests to get it wrong. And one of the things that's real, that I have noticed is Enneagram is not a quick fix. It's one of those things you really have to dive into. But when you do, for me, it has, you know, I have an autistic child. My wife and I are very different. I have a, our youngest is a very withdrawn personality.

And the Enneagram has just been gold for us in terms of understanding where everyone's coming from and meeting them in what they need most. So my autistic child doesn't want to be controlled. And that is a primary. But they also never do what we ask them to do because they don't want to be controlled. And being able to navigate how they see the world and what they want has been really essential for us in having a healthy relationship and having a, you know, a peaceful home. Um, my wife is a type that longs to be praised. Um,

I am a type that would naturally think, well, that's self selfish, you know, that's, that's real, um, self aggrandizing, but her motive comes out of this place where she wants to get the attention of others. And that's a primary for her. So if I know that that's just who she is and not some, you know, personality defect that can be real helpful for us. Whereas my type wants to be right. And so I'll argue things to the nth degree and that can be healthy and unhealthy, but, um, it's because I don't want to be corrupted in my thinking. And that's a primary for me. And she meets me in those places. This is where this is healthy. This is where this unhealthy anyway. Okay. So, but let's talk about you. Okay. Go for it. Um, there, uh, first question would, would be how

you get things that you want. Are you the sort of person who is aggressive about getting things that you want? Like you come out demanding them. Are you the sort of person that withdraws to get the things that you want? You, you feel comfortable taking a big step back or when you walk into a room, are you looking to say, who can I help in this space? Cause I can, I can earn the thing that I want. So demand, earn, withdraw earn the thing that I want.

So demand, earn, withdraw. See, that's tough. I not demand. Um, let me, let me think through this. Um, there are certain things I want to get that I get what I want, but I don't like tramp. Is it better if I kind of just talk through it rather than say, yeah. Yep. So, um, I'm the type of person that I can lead. I don't love the lead. I don't definitely don't need to lead. I would get frustrated in a room.

If everybody's sitting around, there's no direction. It's like, well, Hey, we're like, what's, what's going on here.

But I don't need to come in and command attention or demand something. Um, I'm competitive with myself, but i don't like if i'm playing basketball and somebody's really aggressive and needs to win i'll just let them win i'm like i didn't like i don't it doesn't i'm totally fine losing a basketball game losing anything really um if somebody else really needs to like do it so and i don't i don't get none of my identities wrapped up into that but yet i am very competitive with myself i feel like um if i you know go on a run i can care less if i'm running faster than the next person but i want to get better than my last time you know or and you can

replicate that throughout many different areas of my life um do you feel a strong, um, motive to improve yourself? Uh, for the most part? Yes. Like, are you, are you really aware of your diet? Yes. Yeah. Are you really aware? The older I get, the more I'm like, man, it's so easy to put on weight and to get out of shape. And it's like, oh man, I, so I work extra hard to like uh to diet well to whatever but i also have this pleasure impulse too and this kills me when i travel like when i travel i probably eat like the work just fried everything whatever but then i get back and i'm like i feel guilty i'm like all right nothing but salads for a week you know um so i do have i'm not like an aesthetic like i do like like the pleasures of life.

I do like comfort naturally. I do love good food and everything. But then it's this constant battle of like improving myself and yet giving in to my pleasures. Sure. Does that help? Do you find – it certainly does. Okay. Do you find that you experience um more anger or fear oh man

of those two options here we go um yeah i i or shame shame would you let me let me back up i'm going too quickly do you find that you experience anger, fear or shame more as kind of an underlying feeling I want to say shame I might need to tease that out I'm not angered

very easily and yet like for instance when I played baseball back in the day and this comes with a self-competitive thing, when I didn't do well, I was a volcano of anger, but only on myself. Like, I would literally go and take the baseball helmet, like, if I struck out and just be smashing it over my head. One time I went and went hog wild in a little porta potty bathroom. I got out. People were like, what in the world happened? So I wasn't angry at anybody else, just myself, because I didn't hit the ball a mile.

I might have gotten a hit, but it wasn't like a good hit. So I got really angry at myself. But with other people, I rarely get angry at situations, other people. I just don't understand the people that are just always flying off the handle. Most people who know me, I'm almost positive to say I've never seen you angry. You know, like, wow, crack open my heart. There's more anger there than you think, but it's definitely not a. Could it be that your anger is directed inward at yourself? For example, do you find that you are, you will replay conversations in your mind about what you could have done better so last night

i was up for three hours in the middle of the night because i gave a webinar last night on sexuality with a lot of q a and almost i was reflecting on the answers i gave and i was like almost like freaking out like oh that wasn't accurate that was misleading or did i really say that like i don't think that's like i could be i literally was up from like three until five in the morning could not i mean you know just wide awake and i kept getting these cold sweats of like it was more like so maybe it is a shame because part of me is like what do people think of me do they think that was too liberal or too conservative or are they going to do that and like is that gonna um how's that going to come back to me but also like how's that going to mislead them to not help somebody else the way I think

they should be helped. So it's partly, it's like an internal shame. And partly it's like, I do feel this urge that I want what I'm doing to be helpful for the people. And if I, if I make a mistake and it ends up not being helpful, then I feel like really discouraged about that.

Do you like being the overseer of your own business, your own ministry as opposed to working for a church? Yes and no. It'd be really hard for me to work for like a boss that's telling me like, you need to be here and do this. I like being in control of my time what i'm doing my interests how all this stuff at the same time like managing an organization stresses me out like part of me my dream scenario would be to have an executive director that basically runs all the all the

nitty-gritty all this stuff like i have no desire to expand it to grow it whatever i just want the freedom to do what I enjoy doing. I feel like I'm gifted at doing it, not worry about all the details. But at the same time, I don't want to be told, all right, 9 to 5, you're coming in, you're doing this. I'm like, no, what if I don't want to come in at 9? What if I want to come in at 5? Right, right. So it's a hard balance.

So I love being kind of my own boss. At the same time, it does stress me out in ways that I'm like, I would – yeah, if somebody else take this over, I'd be fine. As long as I get to do what I want to do. Right. Which is hard. It's almost like, well, you got to pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways.

All of your answers point towards the same type in my mind. So I'm just going to jump in and just tell me if this sounds right to you. So one of the types is, is the one, the one is the reformer. Ones are natural teachers. Ones, um, are idealists who seek a world where everything is as it should be. Um, very aware of, of um when things are wrong or flawed um they want to make them better um ones naturally improve things so um for the the spaces that you ones care about they will naturally see this is how this could get a little bit better um the the telltale sign for ones is that they have what, what many will describe as an inner critic. It's almost like a voice in their head saying, this is where you messed up. And, um, and so I, that's my type as well. And I would, and when, as I was thinking through just what I'm familiar with in your work, I would have guessed a one or a three, just depending on why you do what you do.

Is it the case, for example, that you jump into these hard questions, violence, sexuality, hell? Are you jumping into those because you're getting attention from the church or are you jumping into those because you want to move the church a little bit further in their thinking and their sanctification? You know what I mean? That's clear to me. It's totally the latter. Like if I never was on stage to speak again, I would be a happy camper. Not only do I not need or want a platform, to me it's like it just stresses me out. I'd rather sit in my basement and, yeah, change the world without like somebody else taking credit.

I could care less, you know without like somebody else take the credit i'll care less you know um yeah so ones are going to be generally systematic thinkers yeah yeah that is we'll spend a ton of time yes on the systems because the systems ones actually so i'm one also i teach philosophy but ones are thinking repressed that is we feel ones feel things really strongly and then their head catches up later and so systems are real helpful because there's like well if i get the right system then i can have a mental map of the things that are most important so that i don't mess things up so go ahead and and, that that's how I navigate the world. And this is probably why you and I, when we converse about things, which by the way, for you podcast listeners, Preston and I have the best material on talking about the ethics

of queer sexuality that is out there. I have looked at it all. Ours is the best. But you and I are real interested in getting this question right. And we are motivated to get it right. We're more than happy to be proven wrong, but we're creating a system whereby we can think about what healthy sexuality looks like. about what healthy sexuality looks like. So, and that's, I was going to say that the reason why I thought it was a five from the little I know is that I'm hyper just analytical. And it's,

and as far as my own self introspection, introspection, I don't feel like I'm led by emotion. Like I'm one of the few people who believe in annihilation that it's not really like if God, if ECT, if God wants to torment people forever and ever, then so be like, it really doesn't almost to a fault, like bother me.

Yeah. Because that's what God said. That's what God said. That's, you know, like my grandma said, God said it, that I believe it, that settles it. Like I resonate with that kind of God's God. I'm not, what are the facts? Just show me the facts. Cause give me the evidence and I'll go with that leads. At least that's how I think I'm thinking. So isn't that more of a five than a one? Like, I don't feel like I'm leading. It can be. Ones and fives are real similar on this front. Ones, threes, and fives will all

shut down their emotions in order to solve problems. Yes. Yes. Ones are going to focus on what is right to do or believe. fives are going to say, what is the data? And those are slightly different, but one is going to be very principled and one's going to be very evidential. Um, and they do it out of different motives. The one wants to, um, not feel spoiled inside. Doesn't want to be corrupted by bad thinking. That's not what the five wants. The five wants security and wants to feel safe. If I have the right information, then I will be secure and have the resources I need to, to, to be comfortable in the world. That's what a five would think. Interesting. So there's, there's, yeah, there's an overlap there, yet some differences.

Fives, ones will want to try to convince people of their view. Fives will want to disturb people with data. Ones can be very practical in their thinking. This is what this means for us behavior-wise. Fives can often be very impractical. They can go down the rabbit trail of very nuanced issues that just don't have any practicality. I can resonate with both those really. Do you find yourself – you're thinking more of a judgmental thinking or nonjudgmental thinking? Yeah, I'm trying to be really honest. I think it or nonjudgmental thinking? Yeah, I'm trying to be really honest.

I think it's nonjudgmental. Like I try to – like if I disagree with somebody, I want to work hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. And if I sense a genuine quest on their part, then I'm fine with the disagreement. Like I don't need to convince them of my view. I do get frustrated when I feel like they don't have good reasons for holding to their

view or whatever or if they're not willing to kind of look at the evidence or the truth if they're um yeah don't have good reasons for their view even then i don't need to convince them i don't feel like at all costs i'm gonna keep going i'm like but i just like get more annoyed than anything um yeah i don't feel like i judge it's a i don't think it's a judgmental um like i don't know if i resonated with the the one being high like this is the right thing to do that sounds bad right of course i should be but um to me the almost by the way that was just oh it's so funny god the uh let me tell you some stuff let me tell you some stuff about fives it may be the case here if i again i can't tell you what your what color your glasses are so that would be a big part of this um fives are going to withdraw for security they're going to withdraw for security. They're going to be very aware of what they possess because their

possessions will make them safe. So fives are going to struggle naturally with greed and hoarding. They're going to be thinking about resources quite a bit. Fives are going to hoard knowledge in particular, and that's why data matters. Data will keep you safe, especially when it's divorced from, you know, from your, from your, uh, interpretations as it were. The, um, fives will, um, struggle to, to, to get into their bodies, action, their action repressed, where ones are thinking repressed. That is, um, the last thing for a five is to engage their body with the knowledge they have. What does that mean, engage your body? I don't understand that.

Some types, fours, fives, and nines will all come across as slightly lazy because – for different reasons. Um, but the fives in particular will oftentimes struggle with thinking about themselves cause they're always thinking about the world out there. Um, the, uh, but they know what to do. Fives often know what to do, but just have a hard time starting the process of doing it. That's right. Because they're constantly just thinking, thinking they can't actually launch out until they have all the data kind of.

Yeah, that's not me. Yeah, no, I know that personality type from other tests and stuff. I'm like, yeah, I've never been. I'm the type of person that like when a book is like 80% there, like or a blog, it's like, let's get it out there, you know, move on to something else. You know, I've done enough research, whatever. So I wouldn't resonate with the five there. Where I do feel like I resonate with what you said is,

and this maybe deals with the shame piece, and maybe this would make me a one, I don't know. Like, if I'm dealing publicly with a controversial issue, I just, I so, like, go out of my way to try to get every single fact straight so that when I, um, articulate my view, there's no chance that somebody is going to say something I haven't thought of, or sort of even maybe shame me, like in the moment where like, Oh my gosh, I haven't thought about that. And it means like, how do you not think about that? Like, I want to think about everything before I even go public.

So there is that thoroughness in that sense. And yet, but then like I just said, like sometimes I'll write a blog where I'm like, yeah, I'm probably 80% sure of this. Let's get it out there, stir the pot a little bit. So I don't know. Yeah. It's going to come back to motive on that front.

Is it because you don't want to be spoiled or seen as a bad thinker? Or is it fives, their motive for scholarship is going to be different. Fives are going to want to cover their bases so that they can occupy the space they want to occupy and feel, you know, again, and feel safe given the knowledge that they have. I don't know. I have to think about the safety. When you said that a few times, you know, feel safe with the knowledge. I'm not sure if that's me or not.

It might be. It might not be. I'd have to like really think about it. Maybe that's my type that I need to really think about it uh that that that's something i say all the time on exactly that front it's because it's not it's not just immediate um i'm not i'm not a good identifier of my like my emotions and everything like i need somebody else to kind of really draw out these things you know i'm not very in touch with myself if you know really do you we'll talk about that like uh what what would be an example of emotions that you don't feel like you're in touch with um i don't know what like my wife's a big feeler um and so whenever she asks me like well

how do you feel about that how do you whatever like what's going on inside i'm like i don't know. My wife's a big feeler. Whenever she asks me, how do you feel about that? What's going on inside? I'm like, I don't even know. I have something due by 5 o'clock and I'm going to get it done. There's bills to pay. The facts of needing to get stuff done, it's irrelevant how I feel about it or you know whether i'm struggling with it or not sure um is it the case that it's putting language to that is what's last or but i mean you feel certain ways it's just the articulating how you feel yeah no and i'm not ashamed i'm free i'll

talk about my emotions i just don't know what questions i ask what you know but if someone can draw it out i'm happy to lay it out yeah try to be honest with it um that yeah just everything everything you're saying strikes me as one-ish material so let me tell you about like myself on that like i will overshare about certain things um to an uncomfortable point because I don't want there to be something bad inside of me. If I can put it out here and talk about it, then clearly it's out of me. I've confessed it. We are, we're all aware that I may have some defects, but now they're outside, they're out here and I don't feel bad. You know, like I'm, I don't feel like I'm keeping a secret or something. Um, so that's real, that's real common for me. Yeah.'m i don't feel like i'm keeping a secret or something yeah so that's that's real common for me yeah like i don't mind talking about my faults if somebody asked me

whatever like it doesn't yeah um yeah i think i yeah i think i resonate i'm trying yeah well if you were about extrovert introvert is that does that play into this or is that kind of cut across all the numbers? Is that not? Some of the numbers are more, more likely to be extroverted than introverted, but it generally cuts across the numbers. So do you find, what do you find for yourself? Introvert. I'm an introvert who can function as an extrovert, but like I can be by myself in my basement with a stack of books for two weeks and i'd be totally totally fine yeah yeah like quarantine has it's almost scary that quarantine literally hasn't like i haven't even like there's been no like it's been great like i haven't even you know apart from you know the pandemic and all the unknowns and everything but like yeah personally like relationally wise it's like been great man i'm here in my office i got tons of books behind me and um you know but then i do like i enjoy this i've been talking all day to people

on zoom and i'm energized by it too but it's like i don't i feel like i i can be energized by good conversations relationships but if they're not deep and meaningful i don't need like people around and even if they are deep and meaningful i can get by without without them so i don't know that you you described my life right you and i are the same person this is how that that's entirely you can't podcast listeners can't see this but both of us have this enormous bookshelf of books behind us and by the way a lot of them are the same books i told you right i'm seeing the NT right section. Oh, yeah.

I see Jesus and the Victory of God. Oh, it's so good. Oh, and you got the – yeah, the Baker Action Chronicle. Yeah, I'm admiring. We can talk shop about it. All the great library that we have. That's so funny. You want to hear some good news?

Yes, yes. Give me some good news. The Apostle Paul is a one. Is that a segue into the biblical authors? It could be. All right. I got something for you as a pitch.

Yeah. You'll know this. It's one of the most important events in the history of the early church is the fight between Paul and Peter. Yeah. You'll know this from Galatians and I don't know that doesn't appear in Acts, does it? I'm trying to think of that now. No, not explicitly, but it's kind of

like on the eve of the Jerusalem council or before or after whatever the debate is. Um, yeah. Yeah. is um yeah yeah why paul gets mad and why peter takes a big step back from the the gentiles he had been apparently eating with that's going to come out of motive why are you why is it that paul gets so cranked up is worth talking about and why is it that p Peter feels the need to take this big step back when the entourage from James come? And so one of the things we might talk about there, and this might be a segue into – because you can then start talking about Paul's influence on Luke, Paul's writing of his epistles, and Peter's influence on Mark, and Peter's writing of his own epistles. Their motives come out in that space. Paul's real interested in what is right and what the world should look like, specifically what the church should look like. And he has a very idealistic and this is a one-ish practice. Paul is a reformer. He's a teacher, wants to embody the goodness of God.

He's a teacher, wants to embody the goodness of God. And when he sees this thing that's not right, he gets very angry about it. And it's an anger that's a frustrated anger. You talked about that with yourself in basketball a second ago. But the frustrated anger is how it materializes for ones. Peter, throughout the Gosp gospels is a very fearful person and sometimes that spills over as cowardice and sometimes that spills over as reckless but um i would want to type peter as a six sixes are often called the loyalist um they have a radar for all the things that might go wrong. But they have an underlying

feeling of fear and they connect and attach to people who give them safety. And we could talk about Peter in a minute, but it seems to me that this is what's going on in that confrontation, is Peter has attached to his Jewish tradition, to the view of Jesus and his experience of Jesus. And this is a place where things are unstable. The sixes are really aware of rules, because if they break rules, they're going to lack the stability of the tribe. Paul is real comfortable questioning rules. Are these the right rules? Are these good rules? You can get rid of some rules if they don't line up with the system that's actually in place.

That's totally me. There you go. So notice how Paul's thinking on circumcision and dietary laws would play into his oneness. and dietary laws would play into his oneness. It's the big thing, the good thing, the thing that defines the system is Christ crucified. And it has an effect on everything, which includes the restrictions that we have. Now, some restrictions may not be applicable anymore. Now, some restrictions may not be applicable anymore. They may have been done away with because of what Jesus has done and accomplished. In fact, what Jesus has done and accomplished on the cross is created a whole new world where everything is as it should be.

And the idealistic side of Paul comes out there. Peter's not an idealist. Peter is never pitching ideals in that way. Peter is telling us how to wrestle with our fears in his epistles. It's like, you guys are suffering. Let's walk through how we are attached to Jesus the Lord over creation. And in this situation, both Paul is coming out with anger. Peter is coming out with anger. Peter's coming out with fear. And that,

that may be a description of what's going on in that, you know, in Paul's telling of that confrontation, long story short, when reading the Bible, this may be a great tool for understanding what's going on in the hearts and minds of the authors and the characters involved. Yeah. Keep going. Cause this is fascinating. Cause I, I, and when you were describing Peter and Paul, from what I know about them in the gospels and the letters, I'm like, Oh my gosh.

Yeah. It's, um, it's, this clearly makes sense. And even when they clash helps us to understand why they clash and, and how they clash and why Peter with, you know, he withdrew from meeting the Gentiles out of fear for the circumcision party, right?

So there's that fear piece. And Paul does seem, I'm trying to think right now, he does seem to be principally driven and yet it must fit into the system if it doesn't make sense. And yet it must fit into the system if it doesn't make sense. Can you give us an example of where he would be – maybe be like, yeah, that's a stupid rule. Yeah. It's all over the place in terms of critiquing the Judaizers is real easy and natural for Paul. Your rules just don't work.

Okay. Or critiquing Roman culture. So Romans one, he's going to say, here's all the things that are super dysfunctional about your society. He's a, it's just judgment just comes real naturally to him in terms of here's where things are spoiled in your culture. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or in first Corinthians, he's like this. I love you all. You guys are my brothers and sisters. Let me tell you where things are just not going right. And that would naturally be the heart of it.

Ones are going to be that teacher sanctifying spirit. I want you to get better. Specifically, I want you to get better morally. And that's just all Paul's writings. It's let me tell you the system and here's what you should do about it. And what about the whole, like, he's very aware of his own sin. I mean, in his last letter, I'm the chief of all or second to last, whatever chief of all sinners. Like I, when I read that, I'm like, oh, I totally resonate with that. Like the older I get, the more I'm like, am I even a Christian anymore? You know, just that constant self-criticism.

You know, just that constant self-criticism. The stuff in what Romans, I want to say Romans six and seven. The why do I do the things I don't want to do kind of stuff. It's his anger at himself is going to come out frequently. I think you're right. I'm the worst of Sarah's. What I beat my body. I make it a slave that that's the kind of language that would come out of a oneness because he realizes he can't get

to the perfection to the idealistic standards he has for himself morally that pushes him to understand the cross in a certain light and when he realizes i can't get there on my own that actually that is where his theories of justification really come to the surface. And it's like, but Jesus Christ has done this for me, and therefore I am good. And that's what ones need to hear more than anything else. Ones need to hear from the living God, you are good. And you just see that all over Paul's writings when he's really connecting with that message. That's not necessarily what the other types need to hear. But you see that a lot

with Paul. By the way, I would argue that Martin Luther is also a one. And I would argue that John Calvin is probably a one as well. And that message from Paul, they discover that message and Paul elevate it and create a, you know, a reformation out of it. So do you think that certain personality types are drawn to certain biblical authors, certain portions of scripture that, that see, that have the same lens on that they do? They're like, Oh, I totally resonate with that, that way of seeing the world. Absolutely. So I bet you, I mean, you're a Pauline scholar. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm not even consciously aware of the possible,

like subconscious resonance I had with Paul. For me, it was more just like, I don't know. I was really wanting to figure out the question of Paul and the law and wanted to, so I, yeah, I don't, I don't know, but I really wanting to figure out the question of Paul and the law. I don't know. But I do resonate when you're highlighting the different clear one kind of personality traits of Paul. I am like, oh, yeah, I totally resonate with that. Like the chief of all sinners. And just the kind of like, I'll totally uphold the rule as long as it kind of makes sense and fits into this Christocentric system. pull the rule as long as it kind of makes sense and fits into this Christocentric system, you know.

What about Romans 13? Obey governing authorities. Like that doesn't feel very one-ish, does it? I mean, there's so many things going on there. But I mean, that's the classic text of like, Paul just was like patriotic and, you know, submitting to Rome and all this stuff. Having listened to your podcast here recently, as I was prepping for this, I've realized that you're very interested right now in how should you navigate government and theology in this very, you know, chaotic time. It's all, this is, I find myself getting into way more discussions, fights, arguments, um, than I ever have at this point in time. And I imagine it's the case that Romans 13 follows cleanly out of that. Have you seen

Scott McKnight's book on, on Romans that you just put out reading Romans backwards? No, no, no. I need to check it out. It's really good. Okay. He, he he he says we if you read romans back backwards yeah uh 16 of it it's a different book you see the issues that paul is actually seeking to to highlight um anyway but one of them is how do we you know he's obviously writing to the church in rome right so you that so to the church in washington dc who serves under this government, how should you think about the government? And his pitch in 13 is Jesus is Lord. That's the whole point of Romans 1, and it's the point of Romans 8 is the true Lord is the Lord Jesus, and therefore, feel free to obey the authorities because they serve at the command of the living Christ who is resurrected. I think that's how I would think about that.

But he has a system for getting there. Right. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like for me, like I – I don't know. There's many examples I can get.

So I live in Boise, most of you guys know. I don't know. There's many examples I can get. So I live in Boise, most of you guys know. And we have, first of all, the worst traffic, not traffic, but like the worst driving rules, like these wide open country roads. The speed limit's like 35 miles an hour. And when you're on a wide open country road, you feel like you're walking. I'm like, this is a stupid speed limit. I i'm gonna go 50 55 and because that's how fast you should be going this doesn't make any sense that a four lane road with no you know i'm gonna go 35 like how much time i'm gonna waste you know um i don't know but then there's other rules where i'm like yeah that actually makes sense you know there's barbed wire somebody paid for this property don't trespass i'm like, yeah, that actually makes sense. There's barbed wire. Somebody paid for this property. Don't trespass. I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah, whatever. Other ones are like, well, who even lives here?

Why can't I go walk there? I'm just going on a hike. This would be a one-ish thing. You don't want rules that will control you that are dumb. Exactly. That aren't good rules. And this is – okay. So this is why maybe my ongoing – maybe I'll pitch myself in good light here. My holy discontent with the way we do church.

Yes. Okay. How's that? Instead of like a grumpy churchgoer. But like a lot of times, I'm constantly asking why this, why that? What is this producing? Is this affecting the mission or discipleship? We spent this much money on that well okay show me how that's more the most effective way to spend

money if you can't show it to me then i'm not going to be really motivated to give to that or even like be excited about that so when you have layers of that stuff going on at church it's kind of like constantly kind of frustrating you know we're singing this worship set and nobody's singing nobody seems to be into it so either it's your problem it's the people's problem either way like we're just gonna sit here and stare forward while people sing and like there's a problem here let's fix it you know the ones here's the here's the big thing like ones want to embody the wholeness, the goodness of God, that is our image-bearingness. All the Enneagram types bear the image of God in different ways, in my mind. You have a natural gift to see things improved, to see things made better, and that is how you reflect God in the world.

Something that we all need more ones in our life that are healthy, that can actually have a radar for, I'm not sure that this is good. Here's how it could be better. Okay. That's a great gift to the church, the world. I'm all excited now, but I need to, so I want to know a couple of things. So what, what, do have a wing is aren't there wings? And also what's an unhealthy one? Like what, what are my unhealthy patterns I need to be aware of? Yeah. Um, wings are just part of the Enneagram.

If you were to look at the symbol, that's like the thing that people think is a satanic symbol, but it's just a bunch of lines. Yeah. The number is, um, but it's just a bunch of lines. Each of the numbers is next to another number. Ones are next to twos and nines. And what all it means is to get balance in your life, you can often push into one side or the other. So you're idealistic about how things should be. But sometimes you push towards your nine side, which is a peacemaker side, you you're gonna pacify your need to make everything perfect right now. That that can be one way that you balance your

primary motive. Okay. And addiction. On the other side, ones can become very self-focused and like this needs to be exactly this way and other people's feelings and emotions be damned. But you'll realize that doesn't get you what you want. And sometimes you'll push towards your two. Twos are the helper and they're very aware of the feelings of other people. And so sometimes you might push that way. Wings are about balance. You should imagine a bird. That's fascinating because when you're describing the nine,

I'm like, oh, yeah, I could tend to – like the peacemaker. I'm like, I do resonate with the peacemaker. Like I hate confrontation. I am unity. Especially when I – and this is for good or for ill and in my work in the sexuality conversation, I feel like when I'm like, I, um, I want to see the kind of good in other different viewpoints or whatever. And then you meet somebody, I mean, you and I are on different pages on this and look

at us and you know, you would probably hardly even tell because I know you as a person and I, you know, value everything you say. And so the two. Oh, what did you say? You said something about the two that. Would you say about the two that I really resonated with? Two are helpers. Oh, yeah. And they they naturally want to embody the love of God.

And they are very focused on the feelings and emotions of others. Ones, if they're perfectionistic, can get, no, no, no, this is the system. This is the system and how it needs to be. But you'll realize that doesn't work and get you what you want all the time. You need to push into the emotional life of others. And that wing can be helpful. So I could resonate with that there are times when i'm like i'm just so oblivious and could care less about the emotions of others

and other times where i'm like so overwhelmed like i'm like so in tune that they just like you know helping somebody or you know if somebody's not is suffering or not feeling well or feels persecuted or oppressed that really energizes me to help fix that but then yeah but other times i'm like just i can cut myself off from emotions um that you you used a buzzword for ones it's the fix ones want to fix things and you will you'll have a natural radar for this could be better okay this could be improved this could be better. This could be improved. This could be, but it shows you to be a quality person. If you are able to empathize with the people around you really unhealthy ones can, um, get their, their project, their thing. Um, Calvin is a good example of this. Here's the

thing that I want to create. I'll burn some people to get there. You know, I mean, at his worst, you know, there might be all sorts of great things about Calvin and Calvin's thought. Nobody, you know, everybody's got a shadow and that comes out in unhealthy ways at times. But that's an extreme example of that. I mean, Hitler is probably a one. He wants to have a perfect race. He wants to have a perfect country. And we need to eliminate all those people who spoil that vision. And that's a deeply toxic way of expressing his reformer perfectionist side into the world. What's the tradition? When you think of type A personality or on the disc profile, the high D, the dominance, the need to lead, you know, they like to confront, but can't stand to be confronted. You know, who, what number is that

personality? Is that fit one? Yeah. A lot of eights are of that sort. Eights. Uh, my oldest child is Nate and the, the, um, not wanting to be controlled means often that there are there eights anger where one's anger goes inward, eight's anger goes outward. And they create boundaries. They navigate the world and understand the world by really pushing hard into the world. Okay. And so it would be something like that. So on the Twitter feed, a lot of people said Paul's an eight.

I don't know if you saw this. So you would say. Yeah. Paul, a lot of people said Paul's an eight. I don't know if you saw that. So you would say, yeah, well, I would say it again. Uh, we, you, this is where things get tricky is you can't, uh, judge somebody or figure out somebody's type based on behavior. But all we have is, is kind of their behavior and words and their own self-understanding and expression. Stuff that I don't see in Paul is, well, let me think about this. Eights, let's talk about eights.

I mean, actually, let me tell you a Bible writer who I think is an eight, and then we could discuss how they might be different. I think Isaiah, or specifically 2nd Isaiah, how do you say this? Deutero Isaiah, do you get into that material? Yeah. Yeah. So the writer, the writer of Isaiah 40 through 63 strikes me as an eight, very aware of power dynamics. Um, eights long to embody the strength of God. Um, god um eights uh have an underlying feeling of anger like i said that goes outwards um they do not want to be controlled so much of isaiah the backside of isaiah is about how israel's gonna be liberated and that is that is coming out of the heart of this writer and so so right from the beginning in Isaiah 40, every valley is going to be raised up and the mountains are going to be made low and the sovereign Lord is going to come with power and his arm is going to rule.

That's the voice of an eight. Very justice oriented. The princes of this world are going to be brought to nothing you know the the lord yahweh sits you know enthroned above the circle of the earth and everyone else is a grasshopper very aware of power dynamics um and you'll notice how isaiah 40 ends it's with the weary and those who lack strength being you know they're going to increase their power. He's going to bind up – what is it? You're going to run on wings like eagles?

What is the – I need to go watch Chariots of Fire again. Yeah, run with – oh, now you screwed me up. Yeah, at the end of Isaiah 4, I think 40, 26, whatever. At the end of Isaiah 4, I think 40, 26, whatever. The big thing where ones need to hear, you are good. Eights need to hear, I will not betray you. And they specifically need to hear that from God. And when you read Isaiah, that's what you see.

You see a God who is not going to betray you. And Isaiah is even going to picture that God as a suffering servant. He's going to picture that God as Yahweh who is going to see heaven and earth overlap. And that it's – I don't know if you're familiar with the work of William Barber, but he strikes me as an eight who is this kind of – he does the Poor People's Campaign. He's a very justice-minded – well, Martin Luther King Jr. is probably an eight. Very justice-minded, very angry at systems of oppression kind of personality. And it seems to me that Isaiah comes out as that kind of person. Interesting.

OK. Now, OK. I have to give voice to what I'm sure some listeners, maybe a lot of listeners are thinking. They're like, isn't this God's word? Doesn't the Holy Spirit kind of override this stuff? Why are we – so let's talk more like just inspiration and the divine quality of scripture and how that works into this. Are we overplaying the human quality?

So I want to ask you that question because you're going to be more studied on this than me. Paul is a first century Jew. Yeah. Paul is a male. Paul studies under what? Gamaliel? Gamaliel. Yeah.

Is going to have a background. Does that influence anything that Paul writes? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm trying to give a voice to that, but I am definitely, especially as people that are more like biblical studies people instead of like maybe systematicians. So I'm more of a biblical studies guy.

Like I do tend to, I don't think emphasize to a fall I think just rightly try to honor the humanity of the biblical authors um when we're interpreting their letters um where inspiration where my sort of presupposition of inspiration or infallibility or whatever might come into play is I don't think that there's going to be just blatant contradictions between say Jesus and Paul, even though I'm fine with some really strong tensions or even like James and Paul, you know, to me, like, yeah, James said something as close as you can almost get to a contradiction. I think there's an explanation that I think there's more cohesion than maybe some people would say but i'm fine with i don't need i don't need to

iron it out like i think they had very different emphases and um same with you know there's a reason why protestants resonate with paul's letters and catholics resonate with the gospels you know and and i like that i think it's fine to say that, yeah, if Matthew and Paul sat down in a theological conversation, it's not like they'd just be crossing each other's T's and dotting each other's I's. They might be wrestling and stuff. Clearly, there's distinct personalities, even Jew-Gentile stuff that goes into it. And yes, I do think the maleness of the writers doesn't mean they're all misogynist whatever but i think that did bring a perspective so um yeah so i i think it's i guess my only

concern would be like you said it's like the enneagram or even personality tests we have we have such limited data to go on i mean it's like we're going off of you know even paul be proud of the most let's assume that luke's portrait of paul is accurate in the book of acts in scholarship that's widely debated um okay so let's just assume it's totally accurate you know we've got the book of acts and 13 letters of paul and yeah let's assume pauline authorship of all 13 letters we still don't have much to go on i mean what if some people took 13 emails from Jeff Cook, you know, and a biography that would take, you know, a couple hours to read.

It's like, well, that's a snapshot of my life. You're trying to tell me who I am based on a tiny glimpse of a few emails and, you know, a tiny portion of my life through the lens of somebody else, you know. So I think our data is really limited at the same time. Everything you said, it does seem to fall into place based on the data we do have. So I think it's worth, I think it's a worthy thing to explore, you know? You mentioned something, and this would be the big thing for me on this as a philosopher,

You mentioned something, and this would be the big thing for me on this. As a philosopher, presuppositions matter. And if you can, just come in and say, here's my presuppositions. This is just what I'm assuming in order to get the ball rolling. And this might be helpful on the backside or not. But I like saying, if I presuppose this type for Moses, if I presuppose this type for peter know some of the stuff you can do with that and it can be fun yeah i wouldn't say it necessarily would alter well anything i'm just kind of thinking out loud would it alter a previously held interpretation of paul if we had a better understanding of his personality type or would it just maybe

help us get a full understanding of what he was saying or for instance like the confrontation between he and Peter if we just see that in black and white without even considering different personality types we're going to read that passage

in that situation slightly differently we're going to absorb it passage in that situation slightly differently. We're going to absorb it differently maybe, and even maybe apply it differently than if we understand these are probably two personality types and there's a reason why each one did what they did. You know, I don't know. Yeah. The what's been helpful for me is naming the good that each type brings into the world can be real valuable in looking for

the value of what the book is, what the text is. So for example, my wife is a three. Threes are often called the achiever. They're very focused on excellence and they embody the glory of God. They're fantastic leaders. They demand attention in their way of engaging the world. Um, but some of the best leaders that we have end up being threes who are able to elevate everyone else into wonderful, worthwhile, uh, collective identity and vision. So I, and if I see that in one of the writers and I can name that, that can be real valuable in saying this is coming out of the heart of a three and look at the beauties here. Anyway, no, that's super helpful. Especially if you're one who maybe struggles with certain biblical writers. Like I know some people really struggle with Paul, right?

Yes. And I think they struggle with Paul on exactly the place that most people struggle with ones. He's so self-righteous. He's so concerned with what is right and wrong he's so black and white these are common problems for ones in terms of because that's how we navigate the world we want we don't want to be spoiled we have a fear of being corrupt inside and so we want to be right and that comes out in our defensiveness that comes out in, in how we judge ourselves. And often that judgmentalism can spill over. That's the negative on the positive side. As a one myself, when I read second Corinthians, especially as a one pastor, second Corinthians is my thought life. It is, I have done so much for you all and you don't get it.

Let me give you the list of all my achievements and why you should respect me more than you do. And it's real helpful for me to read second Corinthians and say, this person who I really admire felt the same way I did. That might be a good way to think about how the anagram is used practically here. Cause I see. Yeah. What do you think about that? I'm real curious.

No, that's, that's fascinating. I, yeah, I, um, as a,

I guess as a newly discovered one, I could resonate with what you're saying about second Corinthians. yeah. Well, okay. Uh, so some people, I have been called a three and more recently a five

based on i don't want to say a lot i think some early online tests i took said i was a three because i do like i like to the example i always give is if i you know if i if i wake up in the morning and have a to-do list it is like so is like candy to finish the day checking off that last one like i feel like i was productive today um yep is that that's probably characteristic of threes right but i think the motivation when you talk about the motivation it's because i want to be praised for it's like i don't no one needs to know about it it's myself like i want to know that i was productive today um yep so So I don't – Yeah, it's why does it make you feel good?

Right. Threes – if threes didn't get to share their checklist with – and so this is real common in my house. My wife shows me her checklist all the time. She – a wonderful activity for threes who gain their value from the attention of others is to go on a walk by themselves without their phone. And the without your phone is really important because you can't take a picture of your walk to show everybody else where you went and how the solitude was amazing. Because that's an accomplishment and you're trying to get your value from the opinions of others. Whereas ones get their value from what they do. Um, achievements are, it's, it's not, I don't need other people to

know about my achievements, but I need to do things that make me feel as though I'm good and responsible in bringing health to the world. I resonate more with that. Like I don't, yeah, I don't need, yeah, that totally makes sense. Okay, so I'm going to ask a question that might be even, some people might, I don't know, heretical, but like it might be offended the very question. What is Jesus? Jesus?

So I will give you the heretical answer because I'm on an island on this one, but I feel like I got a strong case. The common wisdom on this is that Jesus is all the types. This comes out of Richard Rohr's work. Richard Rohr did the first real work on Enneagram for contemporary Christians. His book, The Enneagram, the subtitle is A Christian Perspective. It's really a great book. And the end of that, he wants to show how the divine embodied in Jesus reflects all the types. I generally go against this because I have the intuition that Jesus was a male, circumcised on the eighth day. Again, a first century Jew, born in a certain place,

died at a certain time. There is something about the incarnation that matters in terms of he is a person just like us. And so I have a strong intuition that Jesus has a type. And I think it's really obvious when, if you can go there, that Jesus has a type. And I think it's really obvious when, if you, if you, if you can go there, that Jesus has a type, I think his type emerges immediately. Okay. So before you give your answer to that, I would, I would agree with you just when you said, you know, that Jesus is embodied in the divine yada yada. I'm like, well, hold on. Let yeah. A hundred percent divine, but a hundred percent human. Like what does it mean to be 100 human it means to have i guess you could argue all of them based on he's the perfect human but he's also a very

a real human he wept he cried he whatever like i i would i'm perfectly fine even through the lens of nicaea um for having because of jesus's, which was the biggest deal in the early church. The first heresy wasn't denying his divinity. It was denying his humanity. Yep. So yeah, I'm huge on the side of, I think sometimes we so diminish his humanity that I love exploring ways in which

he was maybe more human than we recognize. So, okay, so I'm totally on board with you. What do you think his... Let me actually build slightly more on what you just said because i think that's a spot on the typing jesus doesn't mean that jesus type is better than all the others typing jesus says what does it look like for this type to be at its absolute best for this type to be at its absolute best. Okay. And I can apply that to me as well. How is it that Jesus navigates the sins that Jesus struggles with?

The underlying feelings that Jesus struggles with? That Jesus clearly is tempted. We're shown that in bold letters. This is how the devil tempts Jesus. I'll say it in a second here, but the temptations are all the temptations of one of the types. Um, they, they all target the same thing. They, they all target avoidance of pain. And one of the types really struggles with avoidance of pain. So turn, turn, so turn these stones into bread you don't need to suffer anymore kneel before me

you don't need to suffer in order to gain the world I know that's what you want throw yourself down from this high place everybody will know who you are you don't need to go to the cross come down from that cross is the fourth temptation that's said when he's on the cross take this cup from me

it's all about pain so let's talk about sevens dang it he's not a one i was hoping he'd be a one but then you said hitler's one so that's not good in on the flip side gandhi's probably a one it just shows you how ones ones have just dramatic uh you know it's it's the it's the thing from c.s lewis that uh a dog can only be so good and so evil but an angel can be amazing or world destroying you know yeah yeah um so we're in good company that's it you should you should take okay okay i'll take gandhi not jesus but you know gandhi so, Gandhi. So seven.

All right. Keep going. And you're going to hang yourself. You should text. So my Twitter handle is JeffVCook if you've got thoughts on this. Sevens are the adventurer, the entertaining optimist. Sevens long to embody the joy of God and offer that joy to others. Sevens don't want to be stuck very much on the move.

That might describe Jesus. They have an underlying feeling of fear. And the way that they avoid fear is they move from the next thing to the next thing to the next thing. They create exciting opportunities for others. Sevens are routinely seen as fantastic storytellers. Uh, sevens are pain avoiders. Again, all three temptations seem to me to point towards avoiding pain for Jesus. Sevens can struggle with gluttony or that would be their deadly sin.

That's often paired with them. And Jesus is known as somebody who routinely is partying. He's eating with people, drinking with them. And Jesus is known as somebody who routinely is partying. He's eating with people, drinking with people. Um, not that he is a glutton, but the, um, party going personality, I'm going to go to the next thing. I'm going to go do the next thing is very much part of this person, you know, of Jesus character. Um, the, uh, sevens have monkey mind. They, they, they're jumping from here to here to here to here to here very quickly. And if you read the Sermon on the Mount and its 40 different illustrations, that might be a reason to think of Jesus as a seven. You're going to like this. Having written a book on grace, I have not said this to anyone, but it routinely hits me.

The healthiest sevens, I want to say their title should be something like priest. Um, ones should be sanctifiers, twos or lovers. Sevens are priests. The thing about priests is they are offering light from heaven to others. That's the role of a priest is I'm going to break open the windows of heaven and let the light shine in. Sevens want to embody the joy of God. And joy, as you will know, in Greek is the word charis. And what Jesus as a priest does is he offers the good joy. He offers the good grace.

He offers the Eucharist to everyone else as a priest yeah just that strikes me so my wife is a hardcore seven so she's gonna like it except really except for the the gluttony thing she's the opposite like and she doesn't like in in like that can be that is that totally fit i mean everything you said about seven is like off the chart my wife not even a question. But the struggle with like indulging desires, she's the opposite. She would make a fine aesthetic. Really?

Yeah, yeah. OK. So that can be the case. Like Sevens can also go very much the – they can be very aware of their gluttonousness and go towards sobriety as their posture into the world. Like she has definitely a partier, but very clear, like won't cross that line. I think we just take alcohol, for instance. She'll have a glass of wine maybe once a week, twice a week. But she would feel so guilty if she took an extra sip that she shouldn't have or even indulge and even like you know eating a dessert she's fine eating a couple bites and saying it's

it's best not to eat enough or she doesn't even really crave it even so it actually might be more of a biological thing with her where she she can go all day without eating and won't even realize it for me i'm like i live for the next meal like already right now i can't wait for lunch i'm already planning dinner i'm kind of thinking you know tomorrow should i do intermittent fasting or should i just have a big breakfast like i i think about food all the time do you do you think that she's a pain avoider like will she will she have difficult time resting in dark emotions she's a psychological pain avoider something like yeah would be and be very fearful of that i think like the thought of well i guess it'd be any parent but like losing a kid or something or

any kind of like emotional pain or a relationship that goes bad is deeply deeply hurt but as far as physical pain she's not like she has a really high pain tolerance if she really gets hurt slices her finger you probably won't hear it she'll be like um like um but yeah emotional relational pain very very uh very sensitive to that yeah okay i'll tell you like here would be a difference between the the seven who's closest to me we as a pastor buddy of mine and we are routinely talking about politics and how we engage politics is real interesting right now. He is looking for every happy, good story. This is going to be over soon. That's out there.

That's all he wants to talk to me about. And I just want to say, no, that's not the right way to think about this. Thousands of people are going to die. And our conversation just revolves around that. about this thousands of people are gonna die and our conversation just revolves around that um so i don't know if if like yeah is is that has this been real hard for her this this season of being inside yeah uh yeah harder than on on me yeah because she is a partier she is a people person um she likes to be out doing stuff but it, yeah, it's kind of a – there's various levels to it. But, I mean, definitely the moving from thing to thing adventure.

And I'm wired a little bit that way. I probably can stay longer somewhere. But I know for her it's like, you know, let's build something. And once it's done, let's move on to something else. Let's go. Let's do it you know, let's build something. And once it's done, let's move on to something else. Let's go. Let's do it. She wants to travel the world. And she's a storyteller.

When she reads, you know, I hear her reading to the kids, she's just like acting it out, you know, like loves to like entertain. Yeah. Yeah. And she's taking the test and they all line up seven, like the party area. Perfect. Well, so I'll be curious on this in terms of like seeing Jesus as a seven. What you'll see is – this was another question I had for you.

Paul's vision of the kingdom of God and Jesus' vision of the kingdom of God I think are expressed differently. Okay. And they come out of their type. The kingdom of God for Jesus is routinely a party. It's routinely, this is, it's, it's the world is now in a state of celebration. Whereas for Paul, it seems like the kingdom of God ends up being, the world is made whole though. The world is, yeah, it's made right. And there's nothing wrong with either of those visions. They're communicating the beauties of the God

they see or embody the, they're communicating the truths about God through their type and it's influencing how they communicate. Anyway, that was, I was, I was hoping for your thoughts on that in terms of yeah i don't know if that works yeah i think about that a little bit um yeah i don't know i i did what about the whole like you know jesus and judgment though because you do have him yeah to a certain crowd though right the? The Pharisees, the religious hypocrites. But he isn't. Because some of you, are sevens more optimistic than pessimistic? That'd be my first question.

Secondly, I do see kind of maybe a blend of both in Jesus and his message. Yeah. the scribes and Pharisees want to keep us stuck in this way of understanding God and God's work. And that's just unacceptable. God is loose and alive and he's going into all the places that you haven't, you know, even considered yet. Let me, let me show you this person over here. Who's one, you know, who's a Samaritan. And let me tell you about how the Holy Spirit is just alive in this person. That strikes me as a sevenly way to think about things. It's like, I think your laws and tradition are places of stagnation. And that's the one thing sevens hate. They do not want to be stuck. They're moving to the next thing. This also comes out like

when the people come around and they're like, we want to be king we're gonna we're gonna keep you here and this is gonna be the place that you stay that would be you know jesus is a seven is gonna no that's not what i'm gonna do i'm gonna go i'm gonna i'm gonna leave immediately you know in the movement of jesus i'm going to the next thing, going to the next thing, just all over that character. I could see where you're talking about this and exploring it could be troubling for some people. I don't know. We're the type of personality, I guess, that we like thinking out loud, exploring things. It's like, hey, there's no threat here.

We're not saying this is written in stone. Exactly. There's just some interesting things here to kind of like, you know, explore. Exactly. There's just some interesting things here to kind of like, you know, explore. But I could see where – well, I think a lot of, let's say, modern evangelical Christians really struggle with the humanity of Christ. So anything that really pushes into that I think makes people really nervous because that fear of losing orthodoxy or the slippery slope or whatever. There's a – when Jesus – let me pitch this to you. Cause I'd be curious when Jesus sits down to give the last supper, he says, I have greatly desired to have this, this dinner with you. Desire is a huge word. Um, in the Buddhist tradition, you, you're, you're,

you're invited to get rid of all desire. But that's not the Christian tradition apparently. I have greatly desired to have this meal with you. Is there is something about the desires of God that are apparently important to recognize? And that's all the Enneagram is, is what is your motive? Why does he desire to have this meal with them? recognize. And that's all the, that's all the Enneagram is, is what is your motive? What do you, why does he desire to have this meal with them? You know, and, and pushing in. So is it, how about this? Is it acceptable to ask the question, why did Jesus desire, greatly desire to have a meal with these guys? Because if you have an answer. That's what God does. That's not an answer. Hey, man, we've got over an hour, hour and 20 minutes.

This is the longest podcast I've done in a while, but we should wrap things up. Why don't you just tell our audience where they can find your church, the work you've done. I know you have a website still, right? Do you have a blog? I do. You've written a few done. I know you have a, you have a website still, right? Or do you have a blog and you've written a few books? Um, I'm Jeff cook. I teach at the university of Northern Colorado. You can find my work at, uh, everything new.org is where I put my printed material. The debate that Preston and I did on sexuality is there. Um, but the work that I'm doing presently on the Enneagram is around the Circle podcast and we do deep dives into all the types

I've done a lot of work on pop culture stuff recently we go through Star Wars characters and the MCU and that's more where I'm testing out my legs on biblical writers in those spheres

like here's some people who are fake. What are they? But it's a fun way to get into the text and interpret the text. And so anyway, Around the Circle podcast is where you can find my Enneagram work. Awesome. Cool, man. Well, hey, Jeff, thanks for being on the show. It's been, this is long overdue, man.

I'm glad we connected again. Likewise. Yeah. Yeah. Many blessings on your life and ministry, bro. And you. All right. Take care. Thanks, man. I'm glad we connected again. Likewise. Yeah. Many blessings on your life and ministry, bro. Can you. Take care. Thanks, boss. Thank you.