Theology in the Raw - 798: From a Gay Designer in Hollywood to a Radical Follower of Christ: Becket Cook

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

Becket’s story is absolutely incredible. He has one of those stories you hear from a distance and think, “this can’t be true.” But it is. Jesus is real and he is that powerful. Becket has an amazing story and he also has an amazing passion for an amazing savior. Becket shares his story in this podcast; he and Preston also dig into what it means to “leave homosexuality,” the controversy over gay identity (Becket is adamantly opposed to it), and what it was like hanging out with Katy Perry, Prince, Paris Hilton, and other Hollywood stars. Becket spends much of his time in ministry speaking at churches, universities, and conferences helping believers (and non-believers) understand this issue biblically, theologically, culturally, and personally. Balancing grace and truth when teaching on this subject is of primary importance. His goal is to challenge the current cultural narrative about sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular by demonstrating through his personal testimony and biblical truths that, yes, homosexuality is still a sin, and that following Christ is infinitely more satisfying and joyous. He has lived all over the world in major cities such as Rome, Vienna, and Tokyo. Becket graduated from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University in 2017 with a Master of Arts in Theology. Becket’s book, A Change of Affection: A Gay Man’s Incredible Story of Redemption, with a foreword by Francis Chan, published by Thomas Nelson, released July 30, 2019. Connect with Becket Cook Twitter | https://twitter.com/becketcook Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/becketcook/?hl=en Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/becket.cook Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. Speaking of Theology in the Raw and speaking of support, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month. If you have been blessed, challenged, angered, or made really, really happy by listening to the show, and you just, for whatever reason, want to support the work that I'm doing at Theology in the Raw, then I would gladly receive your support. In exchange, you get access to premium content like once a month blogs and podcasts and other goodies that come your way through patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Okay, my guest on the show

today is Beckett Cook. I met Beckett, gosh, what was it? I think about six years ago, back in 2014, 2015 sometime. And we only spent a little bit of time together. We were both speaking at a church in San Francisco, and we had dinner together with some friends. And I haven't really kept up with Beckett over the last six years or so. I was really blown away that evening when I heard him speak, primarily just from his testimony. His testimony is incredible. It's just one of the stories that just, it just strengthens your faith. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It's just, it, it just strengthens your faith. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It's just, you hear it and you're like, if there is even an ounce of truth to this story, then I'm more excited to be a Christian. Now, um, you know, Beckett's story, like anybody who

has a story that involves homosexuality and Christianity. Okay. Let's just say if your story involves, includes homosexuality and Christianity, then you're controversial. Okay. So let's just get that out in the air. Now, Beckett's story is, is again, controversial. We talk a lot about that controversy and I would say it's, it's the, the controversy that might surround Beckett's story has to do, I would say, with the radicality of his conversion experience. And he's going to use language that might be offensive to some of you. He's going to talk about being gay as something of his past, that he got saved out of homosexuality and that he would never refer to himself as gay today, even though he would still, as he says, you know, struggle

with same-sex attraction. But even he says in this podcast that for him, it's a really slight minor kind of buzz in the background. It's just, it's not an overwhelming kind of experience for him. Now, I do have many other friends and you probably do too, where, you know, no matter how hard they have pursued Jesus, you know, their same sex attraction is just as robust and strong as it always has been. And for Beckett's story, it hasn't been. Now, now he is very clear, you know, he, it's not like he's gone through some kind of like conversion therapy experience where he's gone from gay to straight.

He says, I'm not attracted to women, but my same-sex attraction is just not nearly as an issue as it used to be. So, you know, I, knowing that that kind of story can be very controversial, you know, I remember reaching out to Beckett because I just, I really enjoy him and his voice. And he's a wonderful, lovely guy. And I remember thinking like, gosh, if I have him on the podcast, he, you know, I know there's going to be some people that are going to be like, no, you can't have him. You know, I'm going to cancel you out, you know, but I don't care about this stuff. I'm like, no, he's got a great story.

He's got much to say. He's on fire for Christ 11 years after his conversion experience. He's kind, he's generous, he's forthright, he's courageous, and he's got an amazing testimony that just shows off the glory of Christ. And for that reason, I'm so excited to have Beckett on the show. Please welcome to the show, the one and only Beckett Cook. Okay, I'm here with my friend, I'll say my friend, even though we only hung out once five years ago, but with Beckett Cook. Beckett, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Row for the first time. It's good to be here, Preston. Thank you for having me. So why don't we, for my audience who maybe hasn't read your book, which, you know, I don't know what

percentage that is, but why don't you start with just which your story, like, you know, before you met Jesus and in that moment, in that coffee shop moment, literally where you had an encounter with Christ, or I guess it was, you know, shortly after. Yeah. I mean, so I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. And I, you know, at a very young age, I don't remember exactly how young I was, but it was young, and I knew that I was attracted to the same sex. And in Dallas, and I was raised in the Catholic Church, I went to Catholic Jesuit schools my whole life, and it was very much frowned upon to be gay at that time. Like it wasn't like celebrated like it is now. So I had to keep it this deep, dark secret for, you know, many,

many years. And, and it was, it was like the strange kind of phenomenon because I was, you know, one thing on the outside to all my friends at school, but on the inside, I knew that I,

there was like a secret and that I was attracted to the same sex. So that was a weird dynamic. But in high school, I ended up becoming best friends with someone who was gay and we came out to each other and that was a game changer. We ended up going to gay bars together. I mean, we were like 15 years old going to bars, going to clubs and, and Dallas. And I just remember walking into these clubs and feeling like these are my people. Like I felt kind of like this,

like I could finally breathe or something like, because I, even though in school I was popular and you know, I had a lot of friends and I went steady with girls and everything it was I just felt like no one really understood me and then once I got into these these kind of places like bars and clubs and stuff I was like okay these these are the misfits of the world and they get who I am and they're going through the same thing I'm going through. And so that was a huge turning point for me. And then the same thing, I went off to college and I ended up becoming best friends with the guy in

college. And we came out to each other and it was like this whole thing. And, and, and so I had another, so in college, I also had a confidant that I could, you know, talk to. And I still wasn't out in college. I, I had a fewidant that I could, you know, talk to. And I still wasn't out in college. I had a few friends that knew about it, but I was definitely not out in college. And then after college was when there was a really big turning point because I moved to Tokyo for a year with my best friend from college. moved to Tokyo for a year with my best friend from college. And during my time in Tokyo, his friend from Texas came to visit us for a week. And that friend and I fell in love.

And that was kind of like when everything shifted. And that's when homosexuality as my identity was completely cemented. I knew that's when I came out to everyone. I came out to my family, my friends. After that, it was like, okay, this is definitely who I am. It's never going to change. Because before, in elementary school and high school, I thought it was kind of like a phase I thought it was like a phase I was going through. I didn't think it was going to be like this lifelong permanent thing. But after that first kind of relationship I was in, I felt that it was, this was who I was for sure. And my, this was my full identity.

And so, so my, yeah, my parents, my parents, when they found out, they were super lovely about it. My parents were, you know, believers, but they, and they believed it was a sin, but they were, they were very just lovely and sweet about it. My, my mother cried. My father, you know, kind of asked me if I was angry at him for anything, if he did anything wrong. And I was like, Dad, no, this is who I am. It's not a big deal. So they were always very supportive and loving of me.

And I was enrolled. This is a wacky thing, but I was enrolled in law school and dental school. Of course. Which is so funny because I applied to all these graduate schools when I was after college. And I got into dental school and law school at SMU Law School in Dallas and Baylor Dental School in Dallas. And I, but I just, right before classes started, like a week before, I was like, I'm moving to LA to pursue my dreams. Like, just, you know, a stupid thing to do. Don't ever do that. But so, so I moved to LA. And then when I got here, you know, I got into a really fun crowd of friends. They were all super ambitious and smart and hilarious.

And they were all writers, producers, actors, directors. And they all became really successful in their fields. And we were always kind of like, you know, going to, we were invited to all the parties, you know, all the premieres and the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes, the Grammys. And so I would just kind of find myself at all these parties with every, you know, every week with, and, and, you know, I would go to Ariana Huffington's house and have cocktails and, or Prince's house and watch him perform in his backyard for three hours

and so i had this these kind of amazing experiences real real quick how did you get into that i mean that that's just because your friends were in the industry or were you you you became a a not fashion designer right what was your no i was a i so i started off as a, like a writer, actor, a writer and an actor. Okay. And the, the writing kind of was, was difficult. I sold a couple of projects to one to comedy central and one to this production company who produced the Simpsons. And, but everything kept kept not taking off.

With the acting, I did super well in commercials. I did a ton of commercials. But the other TV or movies, it wasn't happening. And so then I fell into set design, production design for fashion magazines and for fashion um ad campaigns so i i did fashion shoots for you know vogue and harper's bazaar and for gap and old navy and you know ysl and all these brands and so that's where i really flourished kind of that's when I you know for the last you know 20 15 to 20 years that's where I really kind of flourished as a you know as a as an occupation as a career okay

and then um but the reason we were so my friends were all just a lot of my friends were all just, a lot of my friends were, well, they were all from Brown University or Princeton. And so they were all very connected to, and one of them was like Tatiana von Furstenberg. So they were all like kind of fancy friends. And so they, that's why we were always invited to these kind of really sort of glamorous events and um and and so and i loved it and i thought you know and i thought that's what life was all about because i knew that god was not an option for me because i was gay and so god was the i god was not even on the on the table and no one ever mentioned god in my group friend group group. And, and there were in my group, there were, you know, Minnie Driver was part of our group. And she, I, we watched her go from

basically not being known at all to becoming a movie star overnight. You know, like we saw, we watched her go through Good Will Hunting and all that. And, and so I had all these kind of extraordinary experiences. And I thought, okay, this is what life's about. It's about, you know, finding true love, which I, and I had five serious relationships with different guys, like over the years, uh, having these great experiences and meeting all these people and dinner parties with Meryl Streep and, you know, Tom Hanks and all these things. And, and then, um, the kind ofep and, you know, Tom Hanks and all these things. And then kind of making them, you know, making it in Hollywood.

Those were the three goals. And so I thought this is what life is about. Like Socrates says, know thyself. I just felt like the purpose of my life is really just to know who I am and to have these really great experiences. And that lasted for a long time. It lasted for, you know, I don't know, 12 or so years before I started to wonder what life was all about. I mean, I always wanted to know the meaning of life, but I knew that God was not an option.

So I didn't know how to find it. And I, you know, as I, in my book, I talk about this. I, you know, I went, when I was in New York or London, I always went to the theater to really serious plays, you know, by Tom Stoppard and Eugene O'Neill and Tony Kushner and all these guys, Harold Pinter. And, and I thought, oh, I can just, you know, these guys are going to give, you know, they, they, they understand what the meaning of life is. They're so smart. They're so brilliant, but then they never did.

Like I just would leave the theater frustrated and I would go to, you know, me every time I was, I would go to museums all the time in New York and Europe. And, and that's kind of like what sort of fulfilled me, I guess, if you could say spiritually, I was just kind of like, okay, this is what, you know, this is kind of a spiritual experience to go into the Tate Modern in London

and see these beautiful, like amazing conceptual art pieces. And so that's what it, but, but after a while that starts to kind of, uh, wear out and, and, and the, and the kind of postmodern relativism starts to weigh down on you and it, because you know, there's no objective truth in that philosophy. And so you start to just get kind of exhausted by not knowing what is true, what's not true, what's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad. And so it finally caught up to me.

And then in 2009, March of 2009, I was in Paris at Fashion Week. I used to go to Fashion Weeks in Paris and New York. And I was in Paris and I went to a bunch of the shows and the after parties. And I was at one party after one night in Paris. And I just, everyone was there from the fashion world. People were drinking champagne, dancing, and I just everyone was there from the fashion world people were drinking champagne dancing and I just felt totally empty and it was kind of the first time I ever had that feeling of total emptiness and I was like oh my gosh what am I going to do for the rest of my life

like I can't I can't continue just going to all these functions and parties and events and, you know, all this stuff. Like, and I, you know, I had gone through so many, you know, boyfriends and I knew what the arc was for each relationship. It was like the same sine wave. And, and so I just was like, is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is? Like Peggy Lee. Real quick, can you unpack that arc?

Like what were you referring to? Yeah, I mean, all of my relationships with guys were two years long. The first six months were just this, you know, extreme, like romantic, intense, you know, period. And then the second six months was still nice, but it was kind of like sort of plateauing off. And then the last year of the relationship started to, it would just decline.

And all of the relationship started to, it would just decline. And to, and all of the relationships, because when you don't have a, like a covenant that, you know, God designed for a man and a woman and there's, there's, you there's, especially in gay male relationships, there's, it's, it's a quid pro quo situation all the time. It's like, if you're not, if you have, if you're not doing well in your career or your biceps aren't good, like I'm out, you know, it's like, it's very like,

everything's constantly in a state of insecurity and kind of neurosis because you're, there's no real protection for the relationship and there's no real covenant of in the relationship. And so at any minute, at any given moment, like they could leave or you could leave. And so it's very unstable. And, and so that's how that was kind of the arc of all my relationships with guys and um and so I you know again like that was part of just like I know guy because with every new relationship with a guy, I'm not kidding you. I literally thought this guy is going to save me. Like this guy, okay, the last guy didn't work out, but this guy for sure is going to be the one who fulfills all my, you know, fulfills me and like makes, gives me purpose and meaning in life. Kind of

like a Messiah. And so I i really had like i was super i had this bizarre optimism when it came to relationships and and uh and now just looking back on them i'm like what was i thinking but anyway so i had that kind of meltdown in Paris that night and got back to LA a couple days later got busy with work and uh kind of forgot about it not and then six months later that's when I was at the coffee shop in Silver Lake and in Los Angeles and that's when I I was with my best friend who was gay. He, you know, he, well, I can't say what he does for a living. Because he's very weird about me talking about him. But he and I would hang out every weekend.

We would go to brunch. We would go shopping. It was like gay church. Like that's what gays do all the weekends and so and then we went and we would hang out at this coffee place in silver lake and uh that that one saturday or i don't know if it was a saturday or sunday but we were there and we noticed a table next to us with young people with bibles on the table and that was a really kind of shocking moment because i had never seen a bible in public in la and i never really met a christian i'd never met a christian in la for sure and um and not and and and i looked at my friend

and he just we kind of looked at each other like what are they doing this is bizarre like especially at that place in silver lake it's like you see like planned parenthood bags you don't see bibles you can see like tote bags with planet um so it was really a strange strange experience. And we ended up getting into, my friend loved to sort of engage in controversial topics. And so he was, he urged me to talk to them. And I, at first I resisted, but then I just turned and I said, Hey, are you guys Christians? You know, it's kind of like a Christian's fantasy of like an atheist asking them, what do you believe?'s the gospel i literally answered

that um and at that point in my life i was i was i was an atheist because i was no longer an agnostic i was really i really did believe at that point in my life that the bible was a myth and i just i i really didn't believe that god existed but i turned to them and we got in this conversation and and they told me they were evangelical christians they went to this church called reality la in in hollywood and uh we it was a great conversation. I said, you know, what do you believe? I grew up Catholic. I don't really remember, like, just tell me what your beliefs are. What do you believe? And they explain what they believe. You know, I think they told me the gospel, maybe. I can't remember if they really explained that that to me but because growing up in the catholic church and even in catholic school we never we never focused on the gospel

it was weird like we would like you know we would study thomas aquinas's five arguments for the existence of god or something it was never like like, what is the gospel? So it was always really elusive growing up. And so anyway, they invited me to their church the following weekend. But of course, I asked them, you know, well, what does your church believe about homosexuality? And they said, well, we believe it's a sin and i i just remember thinking like whoa like that's i loved how honest they were and they didn't try to um you know beat around the bush they just were very blunt and the reason i accepted their answer instead of just like walking away or just you know saying like, you guys are crazy and you

need therapy. Is because of that night in Paris where I just had that moment. And I just thought, I thought, what if, you know, what if God does exist? And I mean, there's a very slim chance he does exist. And if he does exist, what if homosexuality is a sin? And what if I built my entire life on a false foundation and I don't know it? And so that went through my head as I was listening to them. And so I kind of just accepted what they said. And so I kind of just accepted what they said. And then I had a whole week to think about whether I was going to go to this church.

They just gave me the address of the church. And so I thought about it, you know, and I really didn't know during that week if I was going to go or not. I kind of went back and forth with it. And then the following Sunday, I wake up and I'm just like, I guess I'm going to this church. And I just felt just kind of compelled to go. And it meets in a high school auditorium, a public high school auditorium in Hollywood. And so I had never really experienced that before. I was used to stained glass windows and smoke and, you know, candles and things, vestments,

but this was in a very plain, you know, brand new auditorium. And I just was like, Whoa, this is interesting. Like this is very, it was kind of refreshing to walk into a very plain space and um and so the worship music was the worship band was was playing music and people were singing and I remember thinking you know oh my gosh Christian music I can't I forgot that existed and and and it I just I had seen it satirized on HBO shows so many times that I just was like, oh, no, the Christian music, I forgot.

But then I liked it. I liked the music, actually. And I was like, oh, this is very tasteful and good and well done. And I sat down. Tim Chaddock was the pastor, and he came out and preached for an hour on Romans chapter 7. That's so Tim Chaddock. An hour long. He loves his hour long sermons. And he was in the Middle of Earth series on Romans for two years.

And so he was going like verse by verse in Romans and he was on Romans chapter seven and he preached and he was preaching and preaching. And I was like, what is going on? This is the gospel. And I, I just remember everything he was saying was resonating as true in my heart and my mind, and I didn't know why. And then after the sermon, he invited people to come to the, to go to the side of the auditorium. There were people on the prayer ministry who could pray for you. And I, I, so I went over to this guy on the side and I, you know, it was kind of like this

risk I took. Cause I was like, if I do this, this could on the side and I, you know, it was kind of like this risk I took because I was like, if I do this, this could be humiliating. People are watching me probably. The people who invited me here are probably watching. But I walked over to this guy and I said, hey, I don't know what I believe, but I'm here. And he prayed for me and it just felt very loving and caring. The prayer just was felt, it just felt very powerful and caring. The prayer just felt very powerful. And I walked back to my seat. I sat down. And the rest of the, everyone else was standing up and singing the worship music for the next 25 minutes.

I sat down because I was so overwhelmed by everything. And because when Tim was preaching, was just I mean I was on the edge of my seat because I was like this whatever this guy is saying is true and I don't know why it's true and uh I didn't want him to leave I wanted him to continue preaching because I just was like this is like the most amazing thing and it was kind of it turned everything I understood about religion on its head and I was like what this is the gospel like it was the first time in my life that I really heard the gospel and understood it like in it in a very visceral way and and so as I sat when when I sat down, that's when everything happened.

The Holy Spirit suddenly just like, like overwhelmed me. And God just revealed himself to me in that moment. And he was like, I'm God. Jesus is my son. Heaven's real. Hell's real. The Bible's true. Welcome to my kingdom.

And I was like, whoa. And it was kind of like Isaiah in the temple when he sees God's holiness and I just came undone I felt I just started sobbing I I was I cried harder than I've ever cried in my life and for the next 25 minutes I was just crying and crying and crying and it was like this it was the most kind of cathartic cry I've ever had and it was like this, it was the most kind of cathartic cry I've ever had. And it was like this mix of joy over meeting Jesus and also kind of like sorrow over my sins. But it was like more just like joy.

It was kind of this overwhelm. It was like God's presence was so overwhelming. And so just tangible that I, it just, I mean, it, it just completely crushed me. And, and so after that, after that 25 minutes of just sobbing, I, the service ended, I got in my car, came home and I got in bed to take a nap because I was so kind of overwhelmed by everything. And it happened again. God was like, it was kind of like Moses in the cleft of the rock. When God passes by with his glory, God's like, let me show you some more of my glory. And in my bedroom, like, I just felt just this huge, like, overwhelming presence of God and jumped out of my bed sobbing again, just started bawling again uncontrollably.

And I just was like, God, you have my whole life. That's it. I'm done. It's yours. in that moment to, I knew in my heart of hearts that, um, homosexuality was wrong. It was a sin that it was no longer my identity, that it wasn't who I was.

It was a thing in the past. And I knew that dating guys was no longer a part of my future, but I didn't care because I just met Jesus. And I was like, this guy's way better than those guys. I'm going with him. And, um, so I was just like, that was September 20th, 2009. And I've never looked back.

Dude, that's so, I mean, amazing on, I mean, that's, that's not even that, that's an under, I can't, there's no word to describe how powerful your story is. Um, so you didn't go through any kind of wrestling with like, oh my gosh, what does this mean for my sexuality? And like, you know, I need to figure out what the Bible is like. It was just more like just intuitive or just like, I know this is wrong. That all happened in your gospel encounter. Well, it was it really was kind of like this road to damascus moment that was so powerful that all doubt of anything just kind of vanished immediately there was no yeah there was no i didn't need time to you know figure out if this

was wrong or right i like i did it was just like immediate i knew yeah and then of course the by and then i read the bible of me i couldn't stop reading the bible and it was crazy because like as i say in the book like the the bible every word just jumped off the page when i was reading the bible it was like like, oh my gosh, like, this is true. This is crazy. It's true. And even like, you know, in Numbers or Deuteronomy, like, I just was so just excited. Every time I read a, you know, a chapter in the Bible, I was so excited because I'm like, I can't believe that this is not only true, but that I'm now a part of this whole story. And I mean, again, the first like two, three years, I would just read the Bible and just start crying. Or I would listen to a sermon and just start crying. I just was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I know the meaning of life. Like,

I can't believe I know the truth that there is objective truth. And I can't believe I'm part of this whole story of God's redemption. I want to now shift, not shift, but focus on now your life as a Christian in the last 11 years. Before I do so though, I want to do something a little superficial because I have three teenage daughters. I told them I was having you on and kind of a little bit about your background. They're like, well, does he know so-and-so?

Has he met so-and-so? So can you just, I want to mediate my fangirls my teenage daughters who have you so you mentioned passing a couple names Prince and others who are some other names my daughters are going to recognize that you hung out with not that it matters this is all fluff and frill but I just entertain me for a second oh my gosh, I literally knew everyone. I mean, Katy Perry and who are all the people that's Natalie Portman. I read some more that you,

did you do her set design or something? Who? Natalie Portman. Oh, Natalie Portman.man yeah i worked with her um in uh what's her name um the voice girl what's her name uh oh um oh shoot i'm blinking anyway uh what's her name uh oh uh what's her name oh my gosh it's cut anyway yeah the blonde girl on the voice um christina aguilera like i did it i worked with her at her house like we did a shoot at her house i worked with paris hilton several times and i actually was friends with her ish like i went to her engagement party uh with when she was engaged to this guy named Paris. They were both named Paris.

But then they called it up. I was friends with Rose McGowan, who's now a little unhinged. I love Rose. Do you have any lasting friendships from that era of your life? Yeah. Like, so Mariska Hargitay is a very close friend of mine. She she's the star of law and order special victims unit. She's Jane Mansfield's daughter.

And she and I were really close friends in LA before she booked the show in New York. She's been on that show show I don't know now for like 20 years which is crazy I actually went to the audition with her for that show and helped her helped her run lines for it wow so I'm responsible and we almost had a child together um we were gonna have a she asked me to like have because she was single and she was like getting close to 40 years old. And we had talks about, you know, just having a baby together. But then a few months later after our talk, like she met her husband, who she's married to now, Peter Herman. And they had they've had several children together.

So that was a weird – but she and I – Mariska is still a good friend. I don't see her that – I don't see her very much because obviously she's in New York, and so it's difficult. With all the people you've hung out with, I mean the perception from somebody like me who has no clue about that world is just nothing but superficiality selfish whatever and i don't know were there some people that stand out as like you know what this is a really good person you know like somebody who seemed really genuine maybe even humble or whatever are there any that stand out in your hollywood days well i don't know i mean I wouldn't say they were all very, I mean, because we were friends, like they were all very sweet and very, very loving to me and very sweet and great. I mean, I never saw them as mean or selfish or evil like I just saw them as like really fun friends and and so um so yeah I I uh I yeah I

I uh I still I keep up with some of them um a lot of friends kept up with me until the book came out and that the book, when the book came out, um, six months ago, that's kind of when the, some of my close friends really kind of cut me off because of that. So that, that was kind of a weird moment. So your first 10 years, so up until the book came out, so you're saved in 2009 book came out 2019, you were still in the same career, right? I mean, you're still in Hollywood as a Christian now, right? What was that like? Like, was that challenging? Was it exciting? I mean, did you have opportunities to share Jesus? Oh, yeah, it was really exciting. Because I had this whole new worldview, but I was still doing the same job. And so, I mean, I remember just like immediately

going onto the set on this one fashion shoot and right after I got saved, it's like the next week and telling everyone on the set, oh my gosh, you guys, Jesus is real. It's the craziest thing. And I told, I mean, i was super open about my i would evangelize on every set i remember praying like i would pray before i would get on the set and i

would just pray like god just lead me to the person or people that you want me to share the gospel with today and he would he would like open these crazy doors to all. I mean, I was evangelizing in Paris Hilton's house, like to the producer of the shoot. And, um, and I just, and even, uh, Katy Perry, like I, it was funny. We were working on the shoot and I was talking to her wardrobe stylist who was gay and he, he, and I was telling him all about my conversion to Christ and and um and uh Katie was like upstairs getting ready and she was hearing us we were outside by the pool but the

doors were open and she heard us and then finally she came out and she was like okay the bible study's over let's get back to work um and I was like oh sorry but and then i was on this um a really funny moment was i was on this ugg shoot uh you know ugg boots um and i had worked with them one time before and they all knew i was a christian because i my my assistants were christians we always talked about god on the set and they so it was very, they knew that I was a Christian. And so on the second shoot, we were in Malibu for like a week shooting. And one day the, the, the owner of the, the ad agency, she was like, she was, she's really funny.

She's still a good friend of mine, but she, she was like, oh my gosh, we got to get this shot right now. The light's going down, the sun's going down and it would be such a sin not to get this shot and she's like oh becca you know all about sin don't you it's just kind of goading me and i'm like yes actually i do and every like with what i said that like everyone on the set just turned and looked at me like the photographer the assistants like everyone the client from uh and i was like yes i do know about sin right now all of you people are dead in your trespasses and i'm alive in christ and this is how and um and they and i explained the gospel to them and they loved it like the the, the client, after I finished my whole spiel, the, the, the client from, from Uggs, she just was like, uh, I'm going to go get a coffee.

And she like walked away. But then, I mean, they kept hiring me after that over and over. I still work with them up until like a year ago. And so, so yeah, it was interesting to see that I was super vocal about my faith, and I thought that it would affect my career, but it didn't. It just, I kept getting more and more jobs. Did they immediately, when they found out that you are a Christian now, and we could talk about terminology, but are, were, whatever, gay,

did they immediately wonder, like, well, how are you a Christian? Like, you know, homosexuality and Christianity as a mix. Like, how did that part? Yeah. I imagine that must have been a quick place where they went. Oh, yeah, yeah. How did they handle your new perspective on sexuality? I mean.

That was like the first question. I was working on another Ugg shoot and the photographer came. He was someone I had worked with him before he was from New York and he came in from New York he came on the set and he was like oh Beckett how are you doing he was very kind of like I don't know what his story was he had a very strange vibe he was married to a woman, but he seemed super gay. But he was like, Beckett, how are you? And I was like, well, I'm, I, I'm amazing. Like, I don't, I just, you know, and I told him my whole story. I was like, I became a Christian and I mean,

my life is totally different now. He's like, he's like, you can't be Christian and be gay. And I was like, David, I will, I will get to that issue with you. I'm not going to answer that question right now. Because you're first of all, you're, why is that your first question? Number one, number two, why don't you ask me like, what it's like to know the king of the universe? Like, that should be your real question number three i'll get to that answer with you and you know later in the shoot maybe tomorrow or the next day but um just just know that i'm a christian now and my you know my life has changed and god is real jesus and then

eventually we did have a like a real we sat down at the end of the shoot and had a conversation and i told him because everyone asked me that and And I, and I was very open and honest. I said, yeah, I, that's, that's not who I am. I don't live that life anymore. Um, and some people were sort of, you know, a little freaked out about that and offended maybe. But, um, I think a lot of people respected it and more than more than were offended by it they were like wow like he's he's really serious about this and this is like this

isn't just kind of him being sort of a nominal christian like he's actually walking the walk and and so i yeah i did have to basically tell every because that was the first question everyone asked me like well are you still gay like well what are you what's the deal i'm like no but don't you want to know more things besides just about sex like do you want to know the after the eternal attributes of god they're pretty amazing so so yeah let's let's dive deep into that though i mean because like um uh when you said no i'm no longer gay you you might mean something different than that than what people might assume right i mean um because you well i don't put words in your mouth but

when you say you're no longer gay what do you mean by that because i know there's been even an evangelicalism so many debates and misunderstandings and assumptions and accusations and everything so would love yeah unpack what that means for you so um based so i i no longer identify as gay so i so, so I, I would, I would, I don't find it helpful to describe myself with a sin. So I like people don't just say people don't Christians don't say I'm a gossiping Christian, or I'm a greedy Christian, or so I don't, why would I say I'm a gay Christian? Because, so I, I, I don't identify with the word gay and I don't want to speak that word over myself. Cause I, why? I don't want to speak the, like a sinful

act over myself all the time. So I never described myself as a gay Christian. I, if you push me on it, I, and I don't even like to say this really, but I, I, if you push me on it, I would just say, I, I'm a Christian who, you know, struggle has same sex attraction. And I have to say before I was a Christian, my same sex attraction was that like a hundred percent. And after I got saved, it

went down to like 10%. So it's not like this, it doesn't dominate my life or my thought life. But to be technical about it, I'm not attracted to women. I still have same-sex attraction, vestiges of that, but it's very minimal. still have same-sex attraction vestiges of that but it's very minimal and but i'm willing to deny myself taking my cross and follow christ and um and again like i the the gay thing is it's such an identity issue um because like i say in my book there's gay pride parades, there's not Greek pride parades. So it's so bound up with identity that I don't want to use a word that identifies myself as a sin. Like, so while going back to your conversations with like people in Hollywood, as they're trying to wrap their minds around this, did they assume that you're kind of this now, for lack of better terms, conversion therapy, or now you became straight or whatever, did they ask those kinds of questions? I mean, did they, did they really want to dig deep into the kind of the, the technicalities of, you know know attraction and who you're yeah they did they did want to know like are you you know because when i when i would say um i had to like change the word because i would say like oh i you know my conversion and they so they would immediately some people would

immediately hear conversion and think conversion therapy or reparative therapy i'm like no no i'm talking about conversion from atheism to Christianity, not from gay to straight. So yeah, I did have to, yeah, there are nuances obviously with all of this. And so I had to explain the nuances of it. And so yeah, yes, I still have same-sex attraction, but I'm a celibate. I'm a single celibate Christian and I will be for the rest of my life.

Like that's the bottom line, and that's it. So they understood that when I explained it. Okay. I imagine, I mean, it'd be different for, say, a straight person like myself being in Hollywood and then all of a sudden becoming a Christian and now having a traditional you know, a, a, you know, a tradition converting to achieve in a traditional view of marriage, sexuality, but as a straight guy, that would probably, I'd probably be, it'd probably be criticized a lot more, but

given your, your story, you probably, can I say get got away with in a sense? I mean, having a view, cause you weren't like judging those people out there. You're like, Hey, this is, this is my trajectory. And who are you in a sense to to question my story you know yeah like how can you how are you denying my story you know yeah so there is kind of a i do i do have a bit of an advantage because i because i because i've been there and done that like i lived that life for 20 years like i lived that life since high school. Like I lived that life since high school. I mean, I was sexually active in high school. Um, and so like, I know,

I lived that life for a long time and I know all, I know every part of it. And I went to gay pride parades every year, LA, New York, San Francisco. Like I, I was, uh, you know, I went to gay marriage rallies. Like I was very much a part of that life. And, and so, yeah, it does give me sort of an advantage because it's like, yeah, I, I know what that, I I've been there and I know that was who I was, but because of the gospel and Christ, like that's no longer who I am. Like my affections have changed. Yeah. I want to, I want to go back I am. Like my affections have changed. Yeah.

I want to go back to just quickly and we can leave it alone, the whole, you know, gay identity things. I know this has been so disruptive in evangelical circles, especially in this conversation. What would you say? So the way, when I explain this,

and again, I explain it as an outsider, so I'm always really sensitive, giving the impression I know more than I do. But what I've tried to explain to people is, you know, there is a difference between attraction and lust. For instance, you know, if someone were to ask me, Preston, are you same-sex attracted, opposite-sex attracted, or both? Those are really the three options or, or not, or none, I guess. Um, I would say, well, of those, those categories, I I'm, I'm opposite sex attracted. Now that technically means I'm attracted to 3.5 plus billion people

on the planet. Now I'm only allowed to one. I thought Caligula was bad. Yeah. So it's like, obviously, when I say I'm opposite sex attracted, that doesn't mean I'm lusting after three, hopefully not. Otherwise, I got some serious issues that we could talk about. So my same-sex attracted Christian friends kind of explain it in that way, saying, look, I'm, yes, I'm of those, on a categorical level, I am same-sex attracted. Now, for some people, the term, I would say for people that haven't had the kind of trajectory you've had, that maybe grew up in the church, same-sex attracted, that didn't actually maybe never have acted on it, haven't lived in that world, the term gay doesn't maybe have those kind of real layers of negative connotation for them gay is just a synonym for opposite sex attracted and same sex attracted i'm same sex attracted now i think lust is wrong i think sexual be same sex sexual

behavior is wrong but for me the term gay doesn't have that kind of like fundamental kind of identity wrapped up in all this behavior um do you think that that's i get i get doesn't have that kind of like fundamental kind of identity wrapped up in all this behavior. Do you think that that's a helpful way to- And I get that it's like a shorthand way of just saying, I get the shorthandness of it, because it's clunky to say, I'm a same-sex, such-and-such Christian. Like, it's just easier to say, I'm a gay Christian. But anyway, go ahead. Well, no, no, that's helpful.

So would you say that that. So would you say that, that, um, what would you say about how, but would you say, yeah, I think the way you're explaining it is helpful and accurate, whatever. Um, and let me just add one more thing. Cause I, I'm, I am, I'm kind of like, I see, you know, there's, you know, the different, I'm not going to name names, but there's within evangelicalism debates about whether someone ever should use the term gay. And, and I'm, I'm kind of like, I understand the concerns of both sides. Really. I just had Wesley Hill on the podcast a few weeks ago, and he explained what he means when he says gay. And he even says, like, I don't think I ever would say I'm a gay Christian, like come in. I'm a gay, like, I don't, I'm committed to celibacy

because Jesus is on the throne of my life. Obviously by gayness is not my central core of my identity. But for him, the term gay kind of, again, as a synonym for same sex attraction is, you know, he's, he's fine with it. But then other people, you know, I hear, you know, Rosaria Butterfield, or Denny Burke or others who are like, point out some of the concerns they have with using this identity marker, even if they don't mean it as a primary identity, like it, identity, any kind of identity marker isn't neutral, like it does reinforce self perception. And that could be so I'm in the middle here as a straight guy saying, man, I,

I hear and understand both concerns. I just wish we, I think sometimes we can, I don't know, not try to understand where the other side's coming from, and call each other heretics or whatever. Like, I just don't think that's helpful. I'm not trying to understand where the other side's coming from and call each other heretics or whatever. I'm like, I just don't think that's helpful. I think we can maintain disagreements and dialogue around this issue without overly dividing. Yeah, I don't, because I, again, I lived that life for so long and I know what that life, it's a very dark world to there.

I could go into so many details, but I'll spare you that, but it's just a dark world. And I just feel so much freedom in christ and and i just i don't want it's like kind of like for me it's like kind of going back to egypt in a way to say gay gay it's almost like if like the israelites were like oh yeah i'm an egyptian israelite it's like no you're free from that bondage so that's kind of that's the deal would it be accurate to say like for you i mean the term gay it's inseparable from the whole package yeah you know you were involved with is that um it's nice for you it'd never be just a you know a subtle synonym for the fact that you might be still attracted to the same

sex more than the opposite sex. It comes with so much, so many layers of assumptions and baggage that you just have distance that rightly converted from. Yeah. And I also, I mean, I also think what I really think is even really, but like not, not healthy. I think this is actually very unhealthy for people to describe themselves as queer christians i'm like that's not who you are in christ you're not a queer person like you're you're whole in christ and and i so that that that when i hear people describe themselves as queer christians that really kind of jars me

but yeah well in that i mean queer the term queer i mean right comes from queer um queer theology the whole like post-modern way i mean it has that oops it definitely has a an ideological or conceptual baggage that comes comes, even if maybe somebody doesn't understand that they use it in a innocent way. I mean, queer, queer theology, queer. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. Um, I want to go, I just find in general for the, for the guys who do describe themselves, who the guys who are celibate and who are following jesus and following you know everything like i do find the idea of of calling oneself a gay christian it may be fine for that person but it's i think it's misleading it can be very confusing and

misleading to the public or to other people. Yeah. So it's kind of like, it's almost like Paul's, you know, when he talks about the weaker brother or whatever, it's like, don't confuse other people with that. Because now like people in the church are starting to think, oh, okay, so I guess it's okay. I don't know. It's confusing. No, that's good. So your book, Change of Affection, A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption, came out last year by Tommy Nelson.

So you made, and this is basically- Tommy Nelson. Tommy Nelson, is that the, right? Thomas Nelson? Thomas Nelson, yeah. I guess you're on first term. Oh, me and Tommy, we go way back. Yeah. Harpy Collins. Yeah.

Harpy Collins. Yeah. So it documents your testimony, right? I mean, talks about a lot of stuff you've been talking about so far on the podcast. And you mentioned that when that book came out, a lot of things really changed. Can you talk about that? I mean, you're no longer in the career that you have, if we're in for so many years, largely because of the book. Yeah. I mean, I mean, first of all, the book is, is in two parts. The first part is my story, but the second part is really kind of breaking down different concepts theologically about this issue and really looking, examining

the issue of homosexuality from many different angles. And also there's a whole part about, you know, for parents and pastors and, and so what to do and what not to do when someone comes out or whatever. But yeah, when the book came out, I, it was very, it was, it was weird because it wanted to use the real names of all of my friends in the book, the real first names. And so I kind of, what's the word, just innocently kind of just thought, oh, well, of course they'll, you know, sign off on this. So I sent my friends the sections they were in of the book. And I said, hey, can you sign off on this? Because I want to use your real name. And I mean, I was stunned at the amount of vitriol or just

the amount of just anger that I got back from my, I mean, these were like super close friends and they were like, I don't want to be any part of your book. Like, don't, don't, you're not allowed to mention my name. You're not allowed to. And so I was like, Whoa, okay. So that was really painful during that whole process of right before the book came out. And then when it came out, my production design agency, um, dropped me as a client and, and, um, they, they didn't say it was because of the book, but they just, it was just weird.

The timing was very strange. And, um, they just said, you know, Hey, you know, things are, things are shifting at the agency. And, I mean, I was like one of their star clients, you know, like they're like things are shifting at the agency and I'm taking on like so-and-so's clients because she left and I know your book is coming out or your book came out and you're focused on that right now so why don't we just part ways professional ways and i was like whoa okay so that that i kind of

expected that because it like like i said it's like when we were before we were talking i it's like one thing to talk about this my conversion on the set but it's another thing to have a book out there in the world and then work on a shoot with cara delevingne or katie perry or you know miley cyrus or whatever and and then you know have them find out like or j Chastain who I worked with a couple times like the I mean if these actresses or pop stars found out about the book during the shoot it would just be really it would get ugly it would get really awkward and ugly and so um so it became kind of untenable I knew it would become untenable to have the book out and work in this industry. So I lost, I became persona non grata in Hollywood.

And, um, but then God just kind of, you know, God just, I knew what he was doing. Cause I went to seminary for four years, uh, at Talbot at Biola. And I knew God was up to something because I I knew that kind of he was pulling me into this sort of full-time ministry um to help the church understand this issue biblically theologically culturally and from someone who's been on both sides of it and um and so that's what happened like right after the book came out out, I've been speaking everywhere around the country until the coronavirus hit. And then everything came to a screeching halt.

But yeah, so that's kind of like what I think God is pulling me into full-time ministry. How has the book been received i'm sure i mean like any anytime you'd say anything about this topic it's going to have people that love it people that hate it people that you know go after you and your friends and tarnish your whatever what's been received what how have you handled or what have been what has been the criticisms and how how do you how have you handled that it's been i i've been surprised at how positive the feedback has been. It's been really well received. There's been a couple of squeaky wheels. There's been a few people, key people, who tried to get the book banned.

There was one person who is like, he's kind of a semi-pop star who used to go to my church. He tried to get it banned. He has a ton of my church he tried to get it banned on you know he has a ton of followers he tried to get it banned and on amazon which is crazy i mean he was really aggressive about it banned yeah and so wow and uh and a few other people were very upset. Uh, like a very good friend of mine, he, um, he was really, I like, I've never, no one in my life has ever talked to me like the way, the way he talked to me. I mean, he said the meanest things to me I've ever heard in my life. I mean, he was like, you're a coward. I can't believe you didn't like, you could have done so much for the LGBT community. And you're such a coward. You're a fraud. This is all fake. Like, you're a liar. Like, I'm just like, whoa, what? And I'm like, I've never, like, been, I've never been spoken to like that. No, I just, it was've never heard someone's talk so speak so angrily

towards me and what's because there's nothing in the book that you are already talking about for their first between that's what i said to this guy i was like uh i you know my whole story we talked about it we had coffee and i told you my whole story i don't understand why you're now suddenly upset and he i don't know what he's his response was very strange but um is it because they're afraid the book now is going to influence it's one thing for you to hold these bigoted beliefs or whatever but it's like uh now you're actually actively yeah it's almost like now you're an activist and now people are going to, you know, people, the LGBT community is going to suffer because of it. I'm like, you guys don't need any help. You have the entire world on your side.

I don't know why you're like upset about my little book. Like all of Hollywood is like on your side. Every movie, every TV show is about like has a character who's gay and celebrates it. Like, why are you upset at me? And it's a Christian book for the Christian world. Like the broader world probably won't read it either. Yeah. Yeah.

So the first person you mentioned that was trying to get a band, was this from, he went to your church. Was he, is he a Christian or in the church? I mean, this is not. No, no, no. He left. He's no, he's, he's, uh, he was never a Christian. He, um, he just kind of went to church for a while and then, um, and then he stopped going. He, he ended up coming out as gay and, uh, and then completely like dismissed Christianity. completely like dismissed christianity okay and and would he would he try to get every single book on a traditional view of marriage band or just yours i don't it's fine because well okay

if you do you want me to get into the story um it's fascinating because i say it just sounds so fast i mean that is almost exactly what the nazis did well they're They invented book banning and book burning and only promoting one ideology. The reason he was so focused on me is when he was coming to my church with friends,

he had these friends that were at my church and he kind of just, he grew up in a Christian home, and he ended up coming out to me as gay. And when he came out to me, I was shocked. I had no idea he was gay. I was, like, stunned. Was your gaydar broken or something? I heard gay men really do have a gaydar.

It was really off and and then so but but also at the same time he came out we all thought he converted like he had this conversion to christianity it was because he was it was so emotional when he came out and um i thought we were all under the assumption that he, because even after he came out, he would tweet these things like, I love Jesus and I don't care who knows about it. And we were like, oh my gosh, he's saved. This is amazing. But what really was happening was the catharsis of him coming out finally

after bottling that up for so many years, it felt almost like a religious experience to him. And I think that's what happened. And then we were like super close, like not super close, but we were friends. And we would hang out with him. friends and I we would hang out with him like he and I and this this this other girl like we would hang out and have coffee and and hang out and talk and and we were so excited for him and like and this went on for like six months like we or a year we would hang out and and and and he And he, I think he resented me because I was at the time telling, I was just very, I mean, I was just open about the idea that homosexuality was a sin. realized that he wasn't actually a Christian. And once you realize that he was, you know, wanted to live as a gay man, I think he suddenly like turned on me and got really angry at me for just for just being me for just being like, you know, who I was. And so when he found out

about the book, he got super angry and like tried to get it banned. Well, it's almost, it could be, it could feel like a threat, right? Because your trajectory looks a certain way, which gives credibility to the possibility of that trajectory. And for somebody that wants to believe that that is impossible, then your very existence becomes a threat to their own. This happens a lot in the trans community in the, in the trans community when, when somebody detransitions and which is a growing, you know, a growing phenomenon. Um, and I, and I hear, you know, I hear from a lot of detransitioners who might not even

be Christians. They might, you know, whatever, still be lesbian or whatever, um, that, you know, man, when they detransition, their story becomes almost like a threat to everybody else that hasn't detransitioned or whatever. So I imagine something similar, you know. Yeah. I mean, I'm in a way, like I'm a walking threat to the LGBT community. But it's funny because like, you know, some of my, people who are really mature and who have,

don't have insecurities, my, my friends who are mature and well-adjusted, even my like old gay friends still, they don't have any, they have no problem with it. Like they're very, they're very supportive of me. They respect me. It's really only the people who are really kind of like insecure about their own stuff. I don't know what it is, but it's just that's who – those are the ones who really find it a threat. Interesting. We just have a couple more minutes, but I want to get your feedback on, you know, our audience. You mentioned in your book that, you know, you gave some advice to pastors, parents, whatever.

Could you give a few, you know, big picture pieces of advice to... No, they have to buy the book to get that information. As a fellow author, I really appreciate that. No, but chum the waters a little bit, you know. Yeah, get the book. What would you say in 2020, what do you want to say to the evangelical church as it is really wrestling with this conversation? A couple things. Number one, OK, I mean, I talk about this in my book, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were in exile in Babylon.

They were basically commanded to bow down to the culture, right? To the golden statue. They were commanded to bow down to the culture. And they knew that if they didn't, they were going to go into a fiery furnace. But they refused to compromise God's word by one iota. They knew what God's word was. They knew that they were not to bow down to any other God but Yahweh. So they were willing to go into a fiery furnace.

And I feel like evangelical Christians are so terrified of this issue and they're terrified of coming out as just being historic having the historical biblical view of sexuality christian view of sexuality that um they they refuse to talk. And, and I, it's like Genesis one, because in Genesis one, God speaks God's and God said, and God said, and God said, and God said, Genesis two, the man speaks, he names all the living creatures. Genesis three, the serpent speaks and the serpent sows doubt in the garden.

And the man is silent. And I think that's really what I would tell Christian pastors is fear God more than you fear man. Because what's happening now is Christian pastors are terrified of this subject. They refuse to talk about it from the pulpit or anywhere else. And all the while that's happening, Satan is justundated 24-7 with the lie that homosexuality should be celebrated as good, it's good, it's good, it's righteous, it's holy, it's sacred, you know, it went from a sin to a sacrament over the last 40 years. that the church is starting to believe the lie of Satan in the culture, that this is not a sin. And the reason that's so damaging is because it's misleading people. I mean, basically it's misleading people to hell, to put it bluntly. It's like, you're not, and I mean, basically it's misleading people to hell kind of to, to put it bluntly. It's like, it's, you're not.

And I think I don't want to say that pastors have blood on their hands, but, but pastors need to be more bold about this issue and not worry about, oh my gosh, what's going to happen if I mention it, if I say, if I speak of it, like, it's like to happen if I mention it, if I say it, if I speak of it? It's like, dude, just talk about it and be real about it. Because this is like a – and it's not – and people say, well, why focus just on this sin and not other sins? And we should focus on all sins. But the thing is, this sin in particular, as we've talked about,

has become such an identity thing, and it's become such a dominant thing in culture. Like, Christians in general believe, I think all Christians believe that murder is wrong, right, still. And I think Christians still believe that adultery is wrong. But I think now many, many Christians no longer believe that homosexuality is wrong. But I think now many, many Christians no longer believe that homosexuality is wrong. Homosexual behavior, if you wanted to get specific. So I think that's what I would like to say to the church. And also just on the flip side is if there are members in your church who are struggling with this love them and like come alongside them and and bear their burdens with them and be there for them and and um that's what the body of christ is for you know and so and pray for them and and

really just yeah help them out uh like and so that's what I would say on the flip side of that. That's the, that's the sweet spot is, is how to be committed to scripture and unapologetically promote a Christian sexual ethic, which is incredibly counter-cultural today, while caring for and walking alongside and, and speaking about it in such a way that does invite people out of the, you know, out of wrestling in private, right. Cause he can't, you can't wrestle with this by yourself. You need to wrestle in the context of the community. So

to establish cultures of grace and truth, it's not easy. If you're wrestling in private, I always tell people like, don't wrestle in private. Cause that's where Satan loves to work. He loves to work in the dark. So expose it to the light, expose what you're going through to the light so that people can pray, can help you and pray for you. And that, you know. Yeah, that's good. Hey, I'm taking you over an hour and I've got another interview to come up here in a few minutes, but Beckett, man, I could, I could hang out with you all day. You're just, you just, you've got this light behind a literal light behind you, but you as a human are just, you, you exude light and joy. And, and you know, what I love about your story is, you know, that was 11 years ago, your conversion. And you, you, I sense in you just this,

that joy and passion that you rarely see in older converts or at least, you know, usually it's like, yeah, first year or two, it's like, oh, you're on cloud nine and then life sets in. And, but man, I just, you have literal light surrounding you, but also spiritual light that I just, I just praise God for your contribution for the kingdom and just pray that, um, yeah, you would keep flourishing in your ministry. So. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, yeah. Part of that is just, you know, being in the dark for so long for so many years and then finally getting into the light. Like it's, it's like, it's, it's amazing. It's so amazing that I can't stop being joyful. Oh, keep it up, man. Uh, thanks for being on the show, man. Appreciate it. I'll give you a shout out when I release this and you could pass it on to

whoever. All right, cool. Thank you.