Theology in the Raw - 801: Black Lives Matter and the Gospel: Lisa Fields

Episode Date: July 13, 2020

Lisa Fields is the founder and director of the #Jude3Project, which helps the Christian community know what they believe and why they believe it, with a strong emphasis in equipping those of African descent in the United States and abroad. In this conversation, Lisa unpacks the #blacklivesmatter concept and movement and how it relates to the #gospel. "Black lives matter to God," Lisa says is the most important thing for people to understand. Lisa clears up some misunderstandings surrounding #BLM as a movement and a phrase. Check out Lisa's ministry: https://jude3project.org Please consider supporting Lisa's invaluable ministry: https://jude3project.givingfuel.com/wwwjude3projectcomdonate Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in Raw. My name is Preston Sprinkle. I'm the host for today's show and every show, really, because this is my podcast and I named it Theology in Raw because we talk about raw stuff. Today is a very, very raw conversation with my good friend, Lisa Fields. If you don't know Lisa, then shame on you. You need to know Lisa. Lisa is an amazing communicator. She's a Christian apologist. She has a master's degree in theology from Liberty University and is just doing some amazing work among, especially among younger black Christians, helping them to engage God's word and helping them to answer really tough questions. Lisa had

me on her podcast years ago, and we've been kind of friends from a distance ever since. And in this episode, we do talk about black lives matter in the gospel. I know that very phrase might be triggering, confusing for some of you. And I hope you stay tuned because Lisa really unpacks the meaning of the phrase and how we should understand the relationship between the Black Lives Matter organization versus the movement versus just the phrase itself. Lisa speaks into our cultural moment with much grace and much truth. So I'm super excited for you to listen in on this conversation. Couple announcements.

Okay, the first one's a big one. For the next few months, I'm going to say through the summer months, I am going to be doubling up on Theology in the Raw. I typically release a podcast every Monday, and I'm going to be doing it twice a week now. And part of it's because I've been having so many amazing conversations with people. I've got all of these conversations, these files just stacking up. And I'm like, I want people to engage this content soon. Like I don't want to record something in late May and then release it in like late November because I'm so backed up. So I'm

going to start releasing two podcasts a week, every Monday and every Thursday. So I hope you can keep up. And I don't know about you, but I listened to several different podcasts. I subscribed to several podcasts and I don't, um, I can't make every episode. There's several podcasts that I really love that I still may only get to every second, third, fourth podcast that they put out. I just can't keep up with the content, but I do like the availability of various people and episodes. So I hope that you enjoy the extra content happening this month. If you would like to support this show, if you're like, man, Preston, you're doing a lot of great work, this show, if you're like, man, Preston, you do a lot of great work, then you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the

raw and support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content, like once a month podcast, once a month blogs, and just closer access to me, to the theology in the raw community and all that jazz. So if you would like to support the show, that's patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Rock. So for, oh, also, yeah. So a lot of these episodes that I've been recording, they have been primarily YouTube conversations that I also want to release in the podcast.

So you might hear references to YouTube. You might hear me mention, you know, me holding up a book or something that you can't see because you're listening to the podcast. And I'm doing this because I know that there are people who love YouTube, but don't really listen to podcasts. There's people who listen to podcasts who don't really watch YouTube, like it really is two different audiences. There is some overlap, but I'm trying to release content in both spheres to meet both different types of viewers or listeners. So I apologize to what I would consider probably a small percentage of you

who maybe have already heard these conversations on YouTube. And now you are hearing them again on the podcast. I think for the majority of you, you prefer one avenue over the other. So if you would like to watch this video, if you would like to see Lisa in person or all the other guests I'm going to have on, then you can go to my YouTube channel, Press and Sprinkle. Just go to YouTube, type in Press and Sprinkle sprinkle. And I'm releasing, uh, loads of content there. So yeah, go check it out. Subscribe to my channel. Okay. Without further ado, let's get to know the one and only the apologist, the sharp thinker and amazing speaker, the one and only Lisa Fields.

Okay. Hey friends. I'm here with my friend friend Lisa Fields. Lisa is a Christian apologist, a student of the Bible, daughter of a pastor. Lisa has her master's degree from Liberty University, has an undergraduate degree. I forget where your undergraduate degree is at. I've got your bio here. Oh, North Florida. University of North Florida with a bachelor's in uh communications and religion religious studies and i i met lisa a few years ago you had me on your podcast i think to talk about some stuff i was like dang this girl's like asking super great hard questions she's like a

student of the word and a true like i would say an up-and-coming apologist i i think whenever i think of a christian apologist i think of kind of older people, you know, and here's a young kind of rock star who is out to defend the faith and help others defend the faith. Lisa, thanks so much for being on my podcast and YouTube channel. Thank you for having me, Preston. I'm excited to be here. Okay. So I, in this episode, I mean, we're filming here what is it what's july was it june 30th i don't know what day it is june 30th yeah it is june 30th so we're in the mid if someone's watching this like two years from now if the world's still around um i just want you to know we're living in some crazy times there's so many things coming at us um all the way from a global

pandemic a lot of the racial tensions are erupting which is causing a lot of other societal things happening um some are uh a little worrying and some are kind of exciting some change is happening so you know i i just want to have lisa at least i just want to have you just just help us understand our cultural moment now is the best way i can put it and i want to begin i titled this black Lives Matter in the Gospel because I know more than ever this idea of Black Lives Matter as a movement and also as an entity, but also just as a cultural theme. It's something that's on a lot of people's minds. I know a lot of Christians are processing this. And I know it can cause a lot of strife and confusion. Let's just begin there.

I'm just going to say Black Lives Matter and the gospel. Lisa, what do you think about that? Help us understand that. Yeah, I think, yeah, amen, completely Black Lives Matter. I think Black people are made in the image of God, just like all humanity is made in the image of God. And I think that affirms it like black lives matter. And specifically, I think it's important to say black lives matter to God. We're living in a cultural moment, especially when I do Christian apologetics tailored specifically to equipping and engaging African-American contacts where a lot of African-Americans struggle with Christianity. And one of the reasons they struggle with it is because they feel like it's a white man's religion. And so I think it's helpful to affirm that not only do black lives matter in general, but black lives matter also to God.

Black Lives Matter also to God. Many Black people feel unprotected and not just unprotected by the nation or police. They feel unprotected by God. And so I think it's important not only just to affirm that Black Lives Matter, but Black Lives Matter to God so much so that the good news, the gospel tells us that he came and died for humanity okay and so i think that's important what about okay so i'm gonna i'm gonna start already with some with some just hard things if i just some phrase might even upset people um and i think you and i are gonna be on the same page of this i'm gonna throw it out there what what's what's wrong with or is there something wrong with somebody saying all lives matter like what what is it about responding to block lives matter with all lives matter that you could see either helpful or troubling i'm going to try to play neutral here um so we we just had a father's day just recently

passed and i think when you say happy father's day um the reaction is not to say happy mother's day uh because we know that we're honoring fathers at this moment okay uh and i think in the same sense it's true when it says black lives matter it's like in historically black lives hasn't mattered in america right you see black lives being constitutionally sanctioned as three-fifths of a person. You see people stealing us from our land and bringing us over here for free labor. And so historically in America, Black lives haven't mattered to the majority culture. And I think it's important to affirm, hey, in the midst of this racial unrest, in the midst of police killing people in the street, in the midst of historically

Black people being lynched without their murderers being prosecuted because they weren't thought of as human, it's important to humanize black and brown bodies to the majority culture, which is historically dehumanize them and to affirm that, hey, black lives matter. Historically, majority culture lives have always mattered in this country, but black lives have not. no that's that's one of the most succinct ways i've heard it expressed and i would uh just for the ray i i just completely agree with that there was somebody sent a a meme i mean it's fun it was funny and it drove home the point is a meme of i don't know if you've seen this it was from sky jitani um and uh it showed a picture of a guy a house is burning down and there's a whole

row of other houses that are just sitting there. And, uh, you hear a cry from help coming from the burning house, help. And then there's a guy stand out front saying all houses matter, which I thought was, uh, yeah, I thought it kind of drove home the point you just made so um yeah i'm sure there's a lot of other memes out there mocking that for yeah um well okay what about the black lives matter as as a as a more concrete movement i've heard um some people express some concerns people who would say no i absolutely agree black lives matter and i would even agree with what you said lisa but there is some things within the movement that i just can't get on board with. Would you say there are some things with this specific movement that you find problematic or do you find it to be maybe misunderstood or how would you respond to that? Yeah, I think every movement has problematic entities. Evangelicalism.

What? No, we're perfect, Lisa. evangelicalism being one. What? No, we're perfect, Lisa. America as a whole being another. But I also think it's important to note that anything that one can affirm can be used for other things. So, Preston, you deal a lot with sexuality. So think about the rainbow. Right. So, Preston, you deal a lot with sexuality. So think about the rainbow, right? And what it signifies as a God promise to Noah that he will never destroy the earth with a flood again, right? But what does the rainbow symbolize now in America?

now in America, well, just in the world. The rainbow is a symbol of the LGBTQIA plus community, right? But we don't say when we preach the rainbow, we don't say we're not going to talk about God's promise or throw the rainbow away because we don't like the way another community uses it okay we can still affirm that it's a divine promise am i are you tracking with me that's good no that's a great analogy um you're two for two now that's super important that way that we not think we have to throw something away because we don't like the way another community uses it. I think we can still affirm that. And I think if we use the principle of we can't support Black Lives Matter because we don't agree with every tenet, then we're going to have really trouble engaging people who feel that same way about our Christian denominations. Yeah, I found in my own, and I have not spent a lot of time following everything that the BLM

movement is saying. And I would say most of the time, I'm like, man, that's a legit point. Totally on board. There's other times I'm like, ooh, I don't know if I would be on board with that. But when I understand, I don't know, for me in the work I do with sexuality, it's like sometimes I can maybe disagree with a point being made, but I should still understand the underlying thing that has led to making that point. It doesn't mean I still agree with it, but I'm like, wow, that's helpful to making that point doesn't mean i still agree with it but i'm like wow that's that's helpful to understand that for instance i saw um one uh blm leader from new york on a i think it was a fox news interview with a with a white lady it was really helpful because she

was asking you know she asked some good questions and he made he he gave some great responses you know she was kind of uh ask a question that was more critical in spirit of using violence to achieve your ends um and he's like well wait a minute what do you think the revolutionary war was like your whole our whole country was founded on a kind of using violence to achieve freedom you know and there's every parallel is going to fall down but i was like that's a great point you know like so i don't know i i i found it helpful in my own heart so even if i come across something on face value seems a little bit like yeah i don't i don't think it's as a christian i don't think using

violence to achieve your end at the same time even even Christianity has got a lot of skeletons in our closet by doing that. So let's be careful when we accuse others. Is there anything specifically? I know there's some like Marxist kind of themes that people have pointed to with the Black Lives Matter movement. Or is there anything in particular where you're like, you know what, I would probably not be on board with this thing or I don't know if that's fair to ask her um so i think when i think of black lives matter i think that most white evangelicals assume that when people are saying like lives matter they are even thinking about the movement, the organization. I think that's important to note. Like the organization is completely disconnected from the phrase in many people's minds.

Some people don't even know there's an organization called Black Lives Matter that are black. You know what I'm saying? So it's like they have to think, oh, these people, everybody affirms it. And it's like most people haven't read the tenets. They don't even know the founders. Like they just affirm the phrase. of things that black people are doing just for majority culture. A lot of times there's this detached from understanding like people literally black people are just saying black lives matter. They don't even, some people don't even know about the organization or know that the organization exists and they have like these statements,

you know? Yeah. I would think that most black people that are saying black lives matter aren't even thinking about the organization black lives matter that's super helpful because i do see and again i'm not surveying everybody whatever but in my experience my anecdotal experience i do see some and i'll just say you know people who are white who may be critical of the movement they typically just race to the movement and i think what you said there that i i can in my head there's

statements i'm i'm seeing in my mind thinking man i don't think that person even would understand your point or didn't realize your point and i you said something in passing you know suspicion and i guess that's that's a that's a huge problem man like for any and especially i will say a anybody in a majority culture to be suspicious whenever a minority culture is doing something is stirring something making us uncomfortable saying things we haven't heard before when we lead with suspicion that's just a bad place to lead from rather than leading from a place of understanding, especially as a Christian. And as an apologist, I'm sure, you know,

if you're a dialogue with somebody and you're trying to help them to see another point of view, if you lead with suspicion, they're probably not going to be in a good place to consider your point. What about you? So you live in, is it Jacksonville, Florida? Yeah. what about you so you're you live in oh is it jacksonville florida yeah so let's talk about the toppling of these monuments um so i guess there's a spectrum of the kinds of monuments that are being toppled you have on the one hand you know confederate leaders um on the other hand you had like i think they took down like at least ulysses s grant and christopher columbus and some things and it's like man that's that's well christopher columbus okay

that's that's an interesting one but ulysses s grant was for he was fighting against slavery wasn't he or is there more to him than or maybe people were just annoyed at all these white men kind of you know hovering over us what are are your thoughts on the toppling of statues and these kind of symbols that are relics of kind of a dark past? So I think as Christians, we should realize that symbols are important, right? We have a Bible that is full of symbolism in regard. And we see throughout the Old Testament, symbolism um in regard and it's and we see throughout the old testament god has a really big problem with um with statues uh as you say or idols um astropoles uh in fact when josiah

recovered um the law in the temple which he found it where it was supposed to be, in God's temple, he realized that they had to get rid of all the idols. And so because he understood that they meant something, they could repent. But there was symbolism that would remind people of their idolatry. And in the same way, I know we're not living in a theocracy, so it's not necessarily transferable in all ways. But I think it's a principle there that these images matter. These images are important for how we see God and how we see other people. And one of the reasons I think that's helpful because these people, Confederate, when we think of Confederate statues, we think of idols to white supremacy or idols to people who thought black people were less than human and i think it's important that we we think about like how that may damage someone else i read i saw a meme that was helpful it says if somebody stole your family member rape them would you want a statue where would you want us to put that statue?

Would you say you felt like this for a while? Like before, I mean, it was a few years ago when the statue conversation started to come up. But has this been like, would you say most black people, especially in the South, have felt like this ever since? I mean, for decades? I mean, these statues are just kind of a little bit irritating. So I think it is a I think some people just ignore it. So I don't want to say it is a majority perspective. But I think the younger Gen Z and millennial group are like, nah, this got to come down. We want to remove everything that, um,

that reminds us of slavery, especially knowing that they were built after reconstruction to kind of, after when black people started to kind of get some headway after, after being, um, free from slavery, that they put these up as to kind of remind people of Confederate oppression, if I can say that. So it was a symbol of white supremacy. And I don't think people realize that, that they were honoring these people to kind of try to remind Black people of their place in society. So the whole motivation of the original building of them

is problematic. It's not like, hey, we're not saying this guy was great he's kind of a jerk but we're gonna commemorate just history as it is that wasn't really the motive it was like now we want to we want to remind people that the south could rise again you know kind of that's that's the name of a country song i think yeah that's wow that's it that's yeah um you've traveled around speaking and stuff uh do you see the race conversation kind of different from place to place i mean so i didn't grow up in the south i grew up in california and and it it was very different even people i know that were raised in the south and then they've lived in california like man you guys this is nothing like what i grew up with you know like in a good

way like like the west coast typically is more chill they're absolutely racism but it's more isolated it's more like unusual it's not so like in the air as much um have you noticed i mean in this style and in florida in particular is it still very tense i mean segregated do you feel like yeah yeah yeah yeah so i it is very segregated in florida jackville in particular. I grew up black middle class, but I grew up in a black middle class neighborhood. So I rarely saw white people at all growing up. And I didn't. That was just my environment. And then when I went, my church was all black. My schools were mostly black. I mean,

the first interaction I had like with a white person on the regular, I mean, high school somewhat, um, and middle school cause I went to a college preparatory middle school and high school for ninth grade. And then I went to my, um, local high school. Um, so I was interacting, but like, we were very clicked up. So the black people home with the black people, white people home with white people is very rare that we were engaging. College was the first time. I think my college, I had two white roommates my freshman year of college. So that was a very interesting experience.

I love this. They were cool. It wasn't until I went to Liberty that I was like, white evangelicalism is different. Like, this is really really interesting like it was like it was like microaggressions of like and like some overt racism in in comments and it was funny because i think what was more shocking to me was that it was coming from the people that were my age, my professors. I can't say that I experienced that any overt like discomfort in talking to them. If I talked to them about something and they brought up something that I thought was problematic,

I could address them and we could have like I'm still cool with them to this day. I talk to them. but it was the younger people that i felt like were more ignorant which was very interesting i want to i want to can you just keep going so you so have so many questions um you you the the microaggressions from white evangelicalism can you just unpack that even get and and look there's not at least there's nothing you can say to it unoffendable by you okay so you can you can be honest whatever share your heart share your feelings nothing everything's cool um but i just want to understand like what what what is it about a white evangelical context that would be triggering i imagine there's probably

some unintentional things people do that they don't even realize they're doing and i would love to know what those are. Yeah, like just things. I think generalizations they have about black people. So like I think one time somebody asked me, did I know my father? Oh, my God. Like, oh, this is they were like talking about weave and they were like, Lisa, you would probably know. And I was like, actually, I've never worn weave.

I think I had some for like prom one time, but that was it. So I actually don't know. Just assuming things. I choked one time and said, I'm going to get a shirt made just for when I go at evangelical spaces that says, I know my dad, I didn't grow up in poverty. I don't worry. Just so I can answer all the questions that I'm asked or just assume like, oh, you know, like I was telling somebody I did apologetics for the African-American context. Like I was telling somebody I did apologetics for the African-American context. And then they randomly started talking about single mothers. And I was like, why are we even why are we even why do we transition there? Like, how do we how do we get there? Like they have no concept. Many of them have no concept of apologetics in black spaces outside of racial reconciliation or outside of like inner city and poverty.

And so those are the types of things that I found problematic. And it's very interesting that my college roommates, I mean, they had some things about like how black people do their hair, but they were much more and they were unbelievers. do their hair but they were much more and they were unbelievers they were much they raised conversations way better and were much more sensitive than conservative evangelicals and i found that unbelievers tend to deal better sometimes than conservative white evangelicals deal with engaging on race now that's that's not shocking i mean mean, unfortunately. It's funny. So I was raised in a poor neighborhood, lower class, more single mom. In a largely Hispanic neighborhood. I was a poor white kid.

So you're raised middle class, both parents. So growing up in a largely black context what was your perception of maybe white people growing up when you were like maybe you didn't know hardly any like what was your assumptions so i didn't really it's funny because i really didn't think about white people at all like it was it was just kind of like out of sight out of my, like, I mean, white people exist, but I think for me, I didn't have a sense that they were any, white people were any better. Like, so growing up in a middle class black neighborhood, I always saw black people with stuff. I always was around educated black people. So it's like, okay, like maybe there's some super rich white people but there's also

rich black people so to me it was really no difference I think when I got to so the funny enough the high school that I went to from 10th grade to 12th grade was mostly black middle class and white lower class keep going lisa keep going i'm just gonna listen this is awesome so in a sense it was just like oh like i didn't see like white people as better um so it was just it was a very different experience i think that i grew up in than others yeah so it's like you know suburbs um living in the uh community and then like there's um our school is like in the white lower class neighborhood, which has actually been more so.

I guess I don't think that's gentrification, but it was like trailer parks all around. And so it was just a very interesting vibe. Has it been gentrified by the hipster black community now? not it's a mix it's a mix of uh black and white middle class that have like bought up all the trailer parks and created subdivisions but um hey real quick i forgot to mention your organization i thought i think i might have mentioned it before but you mentioned apologetics kind of what you do i just want to briefly briefly, for my audience, the Jude 3 Project. I think that's the website, right? If you use Google Jude 3 Project.

Jude3project.org. So you're doing amazing work, specifically within the black Christian community, with apologetics, biblical literacy. And this is going to – I've been a fan for a while. this is gonna i i i've been a fan for a while i i i think some people i just if i could speak for some people out of maybe some ignorance like wow i didn't know that was a i didn't know that was a thing like you know like i didn't think black people did apologetics you know um and and i i'm looking at the people the voices you're able to collaborate with i mean just so my audience knows there's a whole world outside of white evangelicalism of biblically literate theologically powerful black voices out there probably many names and this is this is a problem lisa but names that a lot of people never even heard of um and these

are yeah anyway go go to the website and check it out. And there's just some great resources there. So you're still doing Jude 3? Is this still – are you still full steam ahead? Things are going great? Yeah, full steam ahead. Full steam ahead. You just had a recent – 24-7.

You just had a recent – something in Chicago, was it? What was that called? So that was Courageous Conversation. That's our national conference. We have – we had our first one in Chicago, September. It was a Labor Day of 2019, no, 2018. Then we had one in Atlanta, 2019. How'd that go? from conservative and progressive backgrounds to talk about easy subjects like sexuality, justice, the authority of scripture, you know, nothing too hard.

How did that go? Sexuality conversation? It went really well. I think it really had to be the Holy spirit to keep the civility of the moment. Yeah. But it was very, very civil. And I praise God for that. A lot of prayer women too into like the civility. But I think setting it up where I was very intentional about like it was going to be set up with kind of like living room style. Yeah. And then everybody kind of had to face each other.

So, you know, an apologetic debate style is you're facing the audience and you're arguing your point. And it's easy to dehumanize somebody you don't have to look at. And so I think one of the ways in which we could create helpful discourse amongst people who think differently is have them actually engage each other face to face. Yeah. Gosh, that's great. Wow. I wonder and I don't know because I haven't. Yeah, I would have loved to experience that. Um, I wonder if just thinking out loud here, correct me if I'm wrong. If, if the commonality

of the black minority experience within America gave some common ground across the theological divide that two white people, progressive and a conservative wouldn't have in common. Do you think that that helped at all? Or is that, is that an accurate way to, I don't know. Yeah. I think that that helped because I think everybody's going to be unified around the, the whole aspect of justice. Yeah. Um, and how that works his way in, in black people, works his way out in black America. Uh, in black america uh but there was very some very

stark differences and some very um uh interesting moments where you could see the tension but people were still respectful okay especially when you got to the sexuality conversation yeah especially the authority of scripture conversation because it's that has so many implications. Right. So. Yeah. I wish I could have been there. Yeah. They're, they're all on YouTube. So. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. I'll check it out. Okay. Let's come back to our cultural moment now. And I would love to know from you,

what would you love to see from uh white evangelical leaders in this cultural moment specifically with the racial tense tensions what should i mean me and many others what should we be doing right now um i've been doing a lot more listening than speaking right now just because i'm trying to get my mind around everything going on and i don't want to i i think sometimes we feel with social media, we need to say something. Something comes out and we need to say something. I don't know.

I think... I don't know. I'm a slow processor thinker and I don't like to speak ahead of where my mind and heart is. Anyway, so... But I want to hear from you. What do you think? What would be your advice to me

and many others like me right now? So I've been saying this thing. I don't know if you've seen it on social, but I love alliteration. So a lot of my points are alliterated many times. But I've been saying listen, lament, legislate. Listen, lament, legislate. And I think that's helpful because, you know, I think as an apologist, I think one of the greatest apologetic tools is listening. It is a necessary thing because oftentimes we as Christians aren't good listeners. I'm sure you get this with trying to help people engage the LGBTQ community it's like just listen like you don't have to go in with all your objections you don't have to go in like thinking oh I gotta tell you why I don't agree with this point like listen and I think when you listen you you'll talk to somebody and you'll say just like the point i made earlier you're like well i can't get on with the black lives matter movement and then when you're talking to most black people

you realize they'll be like what are you talking about like you know they won't even know what you're even like you've researched it way beyond what they even are aware of they're simply making the point black Lives Matter. That was where it started and stopped with them. They didn't go any further. But you won't get that by assuming, you get that by listening. Then once you

listen, you can find out what's the data. Then you can do your own research. A part of listening is taking what they've given you and then doing your own research looking A part of listening is taking what they've given you and then doing your own research, looking at, I mean, the criminal justice records and the disparity historically. Like there are many studies on it from from universities. And you can do your own research and gather your own data. A good example of this, Phil Vischer, VeggieTales, just did an excellent presentation of the disparities of wealth and also the disparity of criminal justice.

And so like he he actively did research. And so obviously the data is out there. So part of listening is also researching what you've heard. I think, you know, in order for someone to really, I think it's to penetrate their hearts, they have to take it and study it for themselves. Like those in Berea, they took what Paul said and they went back and said, that's good, Paul. I'm going to study this for myself. And then I'll say, oh, okay. What you told me was correct. And I think that's being a good steward of what you heard is to go back and research it.

Um, and not licking their talking heads and not saying, oh, I found a black person that agrees with my, my perspective. Cause many white evangelicals will look over the 50 million black people that are saying something and find one black person that says something different and being like that's it you agree with me and it's like the candace ellens yeah that black person doesn't really have relationships with the black community to move the needle forward so you're just you're picking someone that doesn't have any weight in our community to speak for our community this can so i'm curious about that some of the black conservatives um i mean candace is one that really stands out um there's a black community would they typically not find her voice

very helpful i mean she could be pretty whether you agree or not with her she can be pretty kind of shrill just in her rhetoric um yeah what do you guys think what do you think of her yeah i mean it almost i i would say almost none of the black community would affirm um and i think uh what's helpful i always tell people this you should know the influence that a person carries by the audience that they bring okay and so if you invite a black person or if you see a black person and their audience is all white that means they probably don't have influence in the black community. Yeah. And you're not really helping your point get across to a community that they don't have an audience for, if that makes sense.

Yeah. There's one that for a while I was reading some stuff on, Thomas Sowell. I found him, I mean, obviously he's kind of in that black conservative camp but he's a he's a scholar among scholars this guy's like brilliant um and i found his voice to be i mean whether i agree or not with some of the things he said just really thoughtful and thought out less kind of enraging like uh candace owen just i feel like she again whether you agree or disagree with their points they seem to be just trying to provoke or try i don't know they seem too political quite honestly as someone who's i'm not very partisan i just get nervous when anybody's so hyper political

but um or partisan hyper partisan um and the um the other two i forgot i didn't explain the other two, I forgot, I didn't explain the other two, but listen, then limiting. Once you've learned this stuff, being able to empathize and repent for your part in it and then seek in ways, legislate is really more about action. What are some things we could do, rally around tangible for criminal justice reform? What privileges do you have that you may have to utilize to push the agenda of the marginalized forward? And people don't like that word legislate in white evangelicalism because they say it's about heart changing. And Martin Luther King said something that I think was powerful and potent for this moment. The law can't make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me. And that's important. We're not looking for white people to love us necessarily, but we want them to stop killing us.

And so that's what the legislation will provide i've listened to that sermon by mlk many times um and that line that you just quoted has stood out it's been branded because i can lean towards that kind of politics you know whatever and people have helped me understand that, um, I do carry a certain level. And I know this is another debated phrase, so to please don't read into it, my audience, but like, I do carry a certain level of privilege, um, that in many contexts would allow me to have the freedom to not care about legislation because I don't have historic laws that you know were lynching me in time square um can you uh oh there's another question i want um oh criminal justice reform can

you speak unpack that a little bit if somebody's like i don't know what that means unpack uh your concerns there yeah so criminal justice reform is needed in our country because there's such a, um, uh, a gap between how black people are treated in the criminal justice system and white people are treated in the criminal justice system. I'll just use like one of the things that I think is most clear, most helpful, the, the, um, the, the time that you get for crack cocaine and the time you would get for cocaine. And cocaine usually is known as a drug that white people use. Crack is known as a drug that black people use. And there was a huge time difference between cocaine possession and crack possession.

huge time difference between cocaine possession and crack possession. So that's one kind of that created a gap in how black people were prosecuted and white people were prosecuted. And so we need reform that, hey, lets us have equal. There's an equal standard as far as how black and brown people and white people are treated in the criminal justice system, how they're sentenced, how they're assumed guilty. And there's a history of this, like from slavery until now, assuming black guilt, guilty before the trial because one is black. There's an assumption that black people are guilty. And so that's how they're treated, that racial bias plays out in how jurors treat them and how they're sentenced. And so I think that's important for us to know so we can create legislation that will help kind of mitigate this discrepancy. That's super helpful.

So I've heard that for a while now, that the crack and cocaine difference, is that along racial lines or is it along like poverty? Like, for instance, if a white dude was busted for crack, would he get a lesser sentence than a black person busted for crack or or you know you're raised more middle class black neighbor like if a upper middle class black person was on cocaine not crack would they really would they get punished typically or sometimes harsher than a white person on the same substance i can't say all the time just because i don't have the data in front of me but i I do think that the data will point to that even black people in the higher class can receive more more time than someone white lower class.

Now, sometimes it is a classic. So it's class and race plays into to the dynamics and your representation and your lawyer but sometimes how much your your public defender fights for you may be if they have racial bias it may be contingent upon that as well they might fight harder for a white person than they do a black person how do you change that because i would imagine like you mentioned the jury it might be just blatant racist like the guy pulls up to the courthouse with the confederate flag in the back of his pickup truck like you got to well i don't know i feel like it wouldn't if you're blatantly racist it's probably hard to get on a jury right i mean it seems like that yeah i'm sure they might come out in the jury uh but but i

think what you're talking about is more just uh ideology yeah just what's the word i'm looking for a word unintentional or um implicit racism or yeah yeah yeah yeah that it's more that that they may not even really realize it but they're just have been kind of slowly brainwashed a little bit to say to be more likely to convict a black person than a white person how do you change like how do you change that that's overwhelming so i think that's why it has to be a multi-pronged approach that's why i say listen and lament because i think those two help shift the racial bias in in people to understand like the history and then understand like how you might have played a part in perpetuating some of these negative stereotypes and then you can move to the legislation but i think if you if there's

no listening and lamenting legislation alone won't solve it i think it has to be a comprehensive approach okay that's helpful uh one more i guess area i wanted to talk into and i'll let you go i'm sure you got many things to do uh um the church um what would you like to see from the broad and when i say church i mean let's say broader evangelical church black and white um or you know people of color people majority status, what can the church do as a community in the wake of all the people right now? What role do we play apart from the listen, lament, legislate? I think one of the most helpful things that the church could do is repent of its shortcomings. things that the church could do is repent

of his shortcomings as a whole. I think that is powerful to see that kind of repentance play out because it shows that you're aware of what's going on to a degree. And I mean, we all have blind spots, but I think that awareness helps bring healing. I think the church has to repent of the ways it's played into this. So you see this with like Southern Baptist Convention, that it was birthed out of the idea that we want to take the missionaries money that own slaves. out of the idea that we want to take the missionaries money that own slaves, you know,

their racial bias, not letting black people in some of their schools, only letting black people in some of their schools because it was law, not because they thought that black people were, were as good as, or they had dehumanized them in a way where it was like in our minds you're still three-fifths so the government has to force us to integrate not the God that we serve and so I think

repenting of that history or even being aware because what I see when I'm ministering to black students on college campuses is many of them don't want anything to do with Christianity because of white evangelicals. OK. president, like no matter where you land on each, any political party, the inability to critique either side that you're a part of shows a lack of integrity on your part. And so I think people want to see that. People want to see repentance. People want to see people standing up to their particular groups and speaking truth to power. So whether you're a Democrat speaking truth to power on issues of,

of, of, of, of maybe like pro-life, you know, saying, Hey, like I believe that this is not a fetus. This is a human being, you know, speaking truth to power in that. And then speaking truth to power as it relates to racism in the party as it relates to not caring for the poor and marginalized like whatever side you land just be a truth teller in that space and so i think that that's needed well thank you for that um what are your thoughts on like multi-ethnic churches um do you think that that is something that we need much more of um jet like not assimilation where sure people of color are welcome to join our white evangelical culture

as long as you as long as you're not too black you know is how some of my white friends wouldn't say it but it's kind of like, yeah, you can lead worship, but just make sure you're, you know, don't be getting all gospel on me. Our white people can't keep up. But like multi-ethnic churches that actually embrace and promote and celebrate genuine multi-ethnicity from the leadership down.

I don't know. I guess I'm showing my hand. I think that that, I think the'm showing my hand. I think that that, I think the church, for my, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. See if I'm, it seems like the church loses credibility to speak into our cultural moment when we as a church can't, aren't really doing a good job at it. But is that, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. So I think multi-ethnic church is fine. I don't think every church will be multi-ethnic or should be multi-ethnic. One of the reasons I say that is because I think your church,

like your community, and if you're in West Virginia in the foothills with all white people, you're not going to be multi-ethnic. Because people usually go to church based on proximity now. How far they have to drive. Yeah. Like they're not going to cross town just to worship in multi-ethnic spaces. Some people do, but most of the people, it's just not realistic. I think that the posture you have towards people outside of your race is more helpful because your church can be multi-ethnic and you can still be racist. So I think it's important that you use, that you're aware of your privilege, aware of your status in society and steward that the best way

you can. And if you're not, if you're a majority led church and you can't be multi-ethnic, cause it's just like, you're in an affluent white neighborhood in Southern California and there's maybe only two black people in your neighborhood or your community. It's not going to be multi-ethnic. Right. So that's not a hill that, which I think one needs to try to die on in that space. But what ways can I steward this affluence to help those on the margins? I think it's a better question than how can we make this space multi-ethnic? And I think that's a more attainable goal. That's a great word. I had a, this is a long time ago, a church,

I think it was outside of St. Louis, it was in a white upper middle class neighborhood. And it was a very white church very very comfortable church very affluent church but they had they did have a justice mindset or heart they were just like what do we do here you know what they ended up doing is partnering with i think one or two urban churches um and just said hey whatever you guys need you guys are doing the work we're not gonna do it for you we can't do it for you but we want to be here as a resource to help you with whatever you guys need it was something like that i mean maybe so maybe the actual local church isn't multi-ethnic for various reasons but

they're partnering with other churches that you know across racial lines yeah i think that's helpful i think one of the ways people could more affluent churches can help organizations on the margins like so me i run a minority- organization, obviously, because I'm a minority. My nonprofit is and many apologetics organizations that exist had a head start. So they had, you know, maybe a seed of a few hundred thousand dollars or, you know, 50,000, I started with zero. And when I started a white older CEO, because you understand this, apologetics is more older white men that run apologetics space outside of Ravi. But he told me he was like, and he wasn't in apologetics.

He was the CEO of another larger Christian organization. He said, Lisa, you're going to struggle and it's going to be nearly impossible for you to do this work for three reasons. You're black, you're a woman and you're young. And apologetic is old white man. And he wasn't like he's he was an old white man. He wasn't being rude. He was being frank. Yeah. And even though it was a very discouraging conversation, I don't think he said that with the intent of harming, more so than to make me aware of what I was stepping into. And so it is very, very difficult as a black, young, single woman to raise support. single woman to raise support. And so I think in that way, when you see organizations like mine, that you if you're a fluent white organization and say, you know what, I can't do the work Lisa is doing or others, but I have money and resources that you you give and help help the work of people

who are doing it on the ground as a means of stewarding your privilege to help others. All right. So I'm going to call my audience right now. I'm going to put Lisa's info in the show notes. Y'all need to support her ministry. Okay. Look, if anybody's watching this and you trust me, maybe you don't, maybe you haven't heard of Lisa. I've been following Lisa for a long time. She's been a friend and her ministry is absolutely legit, theologically sound, in-depth. I mean, I cannot more highly applaud the work you're doing, work that I can't do, many others can't do for various reasons, and you're just killing it. So go and support. $10 a month, $25 a month, $100 a month, $10,000 check. Let's help Lisa keep doing what she's doing because she's doing amazing, amazing work.

Lisa, I can't thank you enough for your time and for your help. And I've got a bunch of notes here. And truly, I thank you for leading us in this time and for really speaking truth into my life and many others. So thank you for giving up your morning. Thank you so much for us to,

you were like, I think our second or third guest ever on G3. And then you came, but you talked about sexuality. He came back and talked about hell. I mean, I can't, I,

I was like, let me get Preston for the easiest topics. I have sexuality and hell. And then you just, you killed it on both. I'm glad it was helpful. Yeah. We should do it again sometime. All right, take care.

Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you.