Theology in the Raw - 804: Should Christians Wear Masks and Attend Large Gatherings? Evan Wickham

Episode Date: July 23, 2020

Evan Wickham is a pastor, church planter, song writer, and worship leader. He's the pastor of Park Hill church in San Diego (https://www.parkhillsd.church) and has been wrestling with how to handle CA governor Gavin Newsom's order against indoor church gatherings. Should Christian churches obey or disobey this order? How essential are large indoor gatherings for "being" the church? Are Christians being persecuted? We also discuss the weirdly controversial topic of wearing masks. Should we do it? Protest it? What's the rationale for wearing or not wearing a mask? Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Or Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Watch the podcast on YouTube Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

All right. So I was texting my buddy, Evan Wickham. Evan's been a good friend for many years. He is a pastor. He's a church planner. He's a singer, songwriter, musician, worship leader, and a seminary graduate. Just a really thoughtful guy. He texted me and said, hey, what do you think about churches in California? Should we gather against the governor's orders or should we obey the government in this case? What does it mean to gather as the church? Are we disobeying God if we're not gathering? Are we disobeying the government if we're not gathering or are gathering? And what about the whole Christian or I guess just larger political debate about masks? Do they work? Should

we wear them? Should we protest wearing masks? And what is our rationale for doing so we get into all the hot button stuff simmering in our COVID-19 era. So we recorded this conversation in a YouTube live conversation. So you may hear us referencing some people that were chiming in and asking questions. And you can also find this episode, a video of this episode on my YouTube channel at Press and Sprinkle. But I, yeah, I wanted to release this on the podcast too, because it was really, it's a raw conversation. So, I mean, again, I said, we said, we both said this during the episode. I'll say it up front, just as a reminder, I'm not a scientist. I don't know. I'm not a mask expert. I'm not a political scientist.

So I look, I don't even live in California. We are just two guys who are doing a lot of reading, doing a lot of thinking and sort of thinking out loud about. Yeah, just the church's relationship in relation to various volatile questions in our COVID-19 era. So please welcome back to the show, musician, songwriter, seminary graduate, theologian. What else? Father, husband. I am those things, yeah. father husband i i am those things yeah uh evan wickham evan thanks for joining me on my youtube channel on uh in like a three minutes notice yeah so let me yeah let me just give a quick backstory just a few minutes ago evan's texting me saying hey what do you think about churches

in california and should they gather against gavin newsom the governor of California's orders to not gather in large gatherings? And I was like, hey, let's jump on a YouTube live and just talk about it. Here we are. Why not? So give us the summarize for us, the question, the tension you're wrestling with, and we'll go from there. Yeah. You know, I mean, if anyone is watching this from California, you know what's going on. It's a wild time to lead a church, let alone be in the church, leading the church.

So, you know, COVID hits, and then the government's doing all it can to scramble and make rules and guidelines. make rules and guidelines. And, you know, depending on where you land on a partisan spectrum, you will be prone to like or dislike a certain politician's decisions based on whether you already align with the party. So it just kind of follows that there is a huge pushback to Gavin Newsom's leadership right now from people of the opposing party, many of whom are evangelical Christians. And so it's raising this great angst, because what Newsom just did, there's a spike in COVID cases. So because of Memorial Day, a bunch of Californians went to the beach and got COVID. And so all of June was like an exponential spike in cases. And so in preparation for July 4th, they're like, oh, there's going to be a whole nother spike probably.

He closed everything down and he basically said, first, no singing. Right. No singing in churches. You didn't say worship. You said no singing. Right. No singing in churches. No worship. You didn't say worship. You said no singing. Exactly. Did he say singing or did he say worship? Because those are two different things.

There's obviously overlap, but they are very much two different things categorically. And he said singing. No singing or chanting. He added that for all you Eastern Orthodox fans. And he just, you know, he's trying to reduce the amount of droplets that spread because scientifically you just spew more when you sing. So he tightened the reins further and re-banned indoor gatherings. And there's this whole movement now amongst generally politically right-leaning conservative evangelical churches to just kind of say, with respect, screw you, Gavin Newsom, kind of, and gather anyway. And it's causing this really, this emotionally stirring conversation within the body of Christ that is, it's heartbreaking to see, you know, it's heartbreaking to see. And I texted you just kind of like, man, Preston, if you were leading a church in this moment, what would you do?

Man. If you're in California, Preston Sprinkle, lead pastor. Yeah. Do not forsake the assembly, the ecclesia. Ecclesia means it doesn't just mean like church, ontologically church, like we're the church wherever we are. It's specifically talking about an assembly. Um, so like, what would you do in this moment? It's also talking about church wherever we are, body of Christ stuff. But as, as my church history professor said, you know, the ecclesia is the assembly is the church. It's hard to be the ecclesia without ecclesia-ing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't have a quick knee jerk, like, here's what I would do. I'm probably

right where you're at, processing it, really thinking through it all. I would, so because I don't define the church as a large gathering, in fact, I tend to think there has been an overemphasis, ecclesiologically speaking, on large gatherings, traditional Western American brand of church services, two songs on the front end, three on the back end, 45 minute monologue by somebody who's getting a paycheck to do that like i none of those things are intrinsically bad they can be helpful for discipleship they can they can be part of an ecclesia but they're not intrinsically necessary for that so um i don't i think the church can be the church especially in a post-internet age of 2020 i do think the church can be the ecclesia in faithful ways without gathering in large gatherings. Now, has he banned like small, like if you just said, hey, let's gather in homes, let's gather outside. I mean, you guys are in San Diego. I was just there a few days ago. It's like 70 degrees all year long, 24 seven. It's like you, you can, even if it drops down to God forbid 68 or something like you can put on, like you, there are creative ways in which you can

gather generally speaking. Right. I mean, outside or, um, smaller gatherings outside in a backyard, no more than 10, which might actually be more conducive for discipleship seems like is that is that an option i don't know the specific rules here i mean the specific rule is single households can't mingle with other single households uh so if you gather 10 people from various households in one outdoor area, you're already pushing the written health order in California. So this is really a question of degrees. Okay. Like if we're going to gather small to large, what degree do we want to push against the state health order in California to be the ecclesia?

Okay. And so it can get dicey. Like there's all kinds of double standards you walk into. It's almost like as soon as you move forward in any direction, you have to justify why you're not doing it over here and are doing it over here. So that, okay, let's talk about the double standard. Cause that, that is where I, as somebody who's nonpartisan, explicitly nonpartisan, you know, I'm sitting back with a bucket of popcorn watching this political ping pong match go. And it's entertaining.

It is as an exile living in Babylon, i.e. America. Like I'm just, I'm kind of on the side like, whoa, this is really fascinating how politicized this thing has been. I do understand the frustration of some where there's massive double standards. For instance, let me ask you a question can people gather with multi-households in a protest of non-violent protests in the streets is gavin newsom cracking down on that the answer is no can they chant without getting arrested the

answer is absolutely no so i could i can understand the christian saying well wait a minute you're not being consistent so if you can protest against say perceived immorality then we can worship against right perceived you know here's so i understand we can go to lowe's or walmart or you know like i i um i i can i can see some christian frustration say, look, I want to be safe. I want to be healthy. I want to obey reasonable laws. But this double standard is just ridiculous. It does.

It could seem like he's picking on Christians. I'm not saying he is, but it could seem like that to some people. Well, a couple of things on that. Number one, there's no gathering ban for outdoor gatherings. Oh, really? Okay. Oh. And number two, there's no gathering ban for outdoor gatherings. Oh, really? Okay. Oh. And number two, there's no singing ban for outdoor worship gatherings.

Okay. It's all about indoor stuff. So churches can quietly gather with the recent 13-page House of Worship exception to the gathering ban. We can gather outside. No, this is something I never hear talked about is that sporting events are banned. You can't gather around sports. Concerts are banned. You can't gather around music. The only exception to the gathering ban, legal, the legal exception is a 13 page allowance from the governor for houses of worship together. Wow. Okay. So like, that's why I put out a tweet last week. It became my most

viral tweet of my life, which is, I basically just said, Christian worship is not illegal in California. It's actually encouraged by our secular government right now. And I, I just added, remember all those worship conferences where we said, you know, worship is more than just singing. Well, now it's, it's like, we get to practice what we preach now and, and visit the poor and the orphan and the vulnerable in their distress. And the conversation that followed that on Twitter was interesting, but suffice it to say, like the church has an exception to the statewide gathering ban. Wow. Um, where, you know, political rallies, unless you're Trump and you just kicked down

all the red tape, which he's been doing. Um, but sports and concerts are all banned still. Churches are encouraged. And some would say, yeah, that's because a bunch of rowdy freedom fighter churches pushed against the governor. Okay, great. He he submitted. He like he like gave he gave us he gave the church a green light. And now he's asking for a temporary adjustment adjustment to like move it outdoors, wear masks, be distant and basically do exactly what protests do. Do you think that's that's really helpful, actually, and adds, adds a balancing perspective. That's really good. Do you think the Christians that are really fighting against it are on the side of, you know, COVID-19 doesn't even exist. It's a conspiracy theory. It's being blown out proportion um i i've heard people so i've heard some reasonable people say that i don't think it's even it's it's been like some major conspiracy

theory i'm like i don't know like 180 different countries got together and joined arms and like i don't i did to me that just seems like flat earth stuff but but i i can see where you know some of the authorities keep changing their minds we're going to get into mask wearing in a second evan i want to talk to you about that but you know we've seen authorities flip flop on all kinds of stuff we've seen it being politicized we've seen numbers of cases and deaths being embellished and i heard somebody even say you know hospitals get money for every case they have and so they embellish the numbers and i i don't I haven't cross-checked these numbers. All I know is it has become such a politicized mess. Right.

Is it the people on the side of, ah, forget it, that are more like, we're just going to gather and to hell with words. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm a big fan of church unity. You know, I feel like I'm commanded to be by Jesus and the Spirit. And so, you know, the church down the street that is gathering has good and wise reasons to gather. And the church down the street that's not gathering has good and wise reasons not to gather. Full stop. The part that really myths me and actually

is painful as a church leader, and it's something that I have to like learn to deal with on like anxiety levels, is when voices from outside the church suddenly start contacting us going, how dare you not gather right now? How dare you lead in a spirit of fear? And I'm like, oh, are you committed to our church? We would love to meet with you as elders to walk you through our decision process as we've been praying. They're like, oh no, we're not. We just, we just made it our aim basically to, to let you know that it's very sad what you're doing. And I'm like, wow. I resonate. I don't resonate. I can understand a lot of what they said but spirit of fear no no hold on

a second this is both i is i know you and i'm gonna put words in your mouth you can pull them back out if they're not correct but you're not doing this out of a spirit of fear you're doing it out of two things one submission to governing authorities and as much as they don't call you to disobey the command of jesus and right we might need to come back to that but and secondly love your neighbors yourself like if well i'll just say scientifically since large gatherings are much more prone to spread covet 19 especially since we know the asymptomatic people are off the chart so temperature checks i'm not feeling good okay Okay, that's great. But most people don't have any symptoms and yet they can pass it to loads of people who end up spreading

to somebody who is a vulnerable person. So I think it's pretty easy to make a case that out of love for neighbor, I am not going to do something that has been scientifically proven to exacerbate the spread of a disease that's highly contagious. And I would say somewhat deadly as the asymptomatic cases keep going through the roof. It's almost lowering the death rate so that even people from what I've seen, I'm not a scientist, but from what I've seen, people that are, say, 10 to 25, the death rate is about the same as a flu. It's really, really low. But somebody who's over 60, has health conditions, the death rate is obviously a lot higher than a flu. So this is something to take seriously. Right.

Yeah. I mean, spirit of fear is quite an accusation i think and i you know the gift of fear as a limbic response to danger is from god you know what i mean limbic fear that's great you know what i mean like as you, the gift of fear keeps me from becoming roadkill. If I step out onto a freeway, I'm afraid to do that. A spirit of fear keeps you from operating in your spiritual gifts and your vocation and your calling and loving your neighbor well, sacrificially. Spirit of fear keeps you from being like Jesus. And so we, you know, we have medical professionals in our church. San Diego is a

hotspot for like bioengineering and medical degrees, SDSU, UCSD. And so there's a lot of medical professionals in our church. A couple of public health experts go to our church and they're like, hey, when you regather in person, just so you know, I'll probably be two or three months behind. And we have, you know, a toxicologist on the other hand, who looks at COVID under a microscope for a living. And he's like, you know what? I'm not worried at all. Herd immunity is coming. Let's gather. And then, and then I have an MD who is in residency at Scripps, who's also a public health expert. And he's like, Evan, I won't be there when you gather, but I trust you. And so we have all of these medical professionals, the majority of whom are genuinely nervous.

And that's not political. It's literally their daily job. And they're advising the elders, we're praying in the spirit. And honestly, I don't feel afraid of this. I'm not afraid. I feel very sober minded, like we could make a decision that causes a cluster of spread that ends up killing someone that's just yeah like a real concern during a global pandemic that kills 50 000 people in one month maybe yeah um so so i just read on wall wall street journal article that came out today yeah the mortality rate of covid is going down because we're testing more people right but it's still six times higher than the seasonal flu anywhere from 0.06 to 1.4 percent of cases end up dead um and that's across continents. They're finding that same finding still.

And, you know, that's very low when you think of everyone that's being tested now. But it's six times higher than the seasonal flu. And I'm not a doctor. And I have a health order. And I have the Bible. And so, like, you can be, you can, I mean, I see the church as the church is to engage in discipleship and mission is kind of two broad umbrella categories. Well, right. Worship disciples.

Oh, I see worship is kind of probably encompassing both those. So let's just say discipleship and mission. I haven't talked about this publicly too much, but man, during this whole COVID season, the church has a golden opportunity to revisit as, um, who's that? Oh gosh. Um, Phyllis Tickle. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, she says every 500 years, the church has a great rummage sale. Like let's, let's re-examine the things we're doing as the church that just don't need, there aren't helping discipleship or mission. I personally think, and I know you resonate with this, that there's been a lot of things over the last 500 years

that have built up, that have collected dust, that have become old and stale and ineffective. We keep throwing money at them. There's various aspects of our ecclesiology that aren't really a furthering discipleship or furthering the mission. We have a golden opportunity to revisit those things and say, okay, we live in a post-internet age.

The church structures that were created in the pre-internet age, that age, that world doesn't exist anymore. And yet we're still relying on the same kind of older models. Let's come back, revisit the foundations foundations and say what can we be doing um and and i'm not just saying zoom chats all day long or something i mean there's there's just a there is a lot of creative creative ways in which we can further discipleship for the mission so just because large indoor gatherings i didn't realize it was in just because large indoor gatherings are temporarily put on hold. That does not at all mean that discipleship and mission should be are being roadblocked.

If they are, then I would say you need to get a little more of a Christian imagination of what it means to be a Christian in 2020. Am I way off? And again, I speak as a non-pastor. And so I know it's easy for me to sit back and do that. But it's just I just I don't know. I 100, again, I speak as a non-pastor, and so I know it's easy for me to sit back and do that, but it's just, I just, yeah, I don't know. 100%. No, totally. We have about 30 community groups, anywhere from six to 20 people. Most of them are right in the middle of that range that meet every week. And a lot of them meet on Sunday to watch a live stream. One of our communities meets in Coronado Island

under the sun, under the palm trees, on the grass. And just last Sunday, they had their speakers turned up. Yeah, they had their laptop open on the grass and they were sitting in a semicircle, speakers turned up, singing with their hands raised. And a couple rides by on their bike and they're like, is that church? Hey, are you guys church? Oh, no, no, no. We're outside. This can't be church. Yeah, yeah.

And they're like, yeah, come on. And they're like, oh, it's amazing. All the indoor churches around here had RSVP caps. And so we weren't allowed in the doors. So I'm so thankful to have met you guys. And they ended up getting prayed for some mental anxiety anxiety thing they ended up you know experiencing just belonging and welcoming Coronado Island and and we have 30 communities doing that all week and many of them meet to watch a teaching it is still it is still

livestream but it's a teaching and worship and a call to prayer every week right and we have a lot of problems that we're trying to work out. This season has exposed so many cracks in our methodology, but we're trying to fill them. Gosh, so many different directions. I want to get the masks soon. Masks. One thing I've realized is that,

I got to be careful how I say this. There are so many psychological, mental issues that I would say the majority of people are wrestling with. Let's add to that the racial tensions in the country. We, especially white evangelical Christian leaders, we all need probably a good sabbatical just to read a couple dozen books, have a few dozen conversations, get our arms around race relations so that we can lead our people well in discipleship and mission. What about the 25% of Christians who have been a victim of sexual abuse? 20% that have never had space to work through that 50 i'm just throwing these out as generalities 50

who may engage in self-harming behavior suicidality as a result um who will later have sexual dysfunction there's a lot of these like and i guess what i'm trying to say is like, could this COVID-19 space where we're not focused on large celebratory gatherings, which can serve a purpose. I'm not, so it's a thousand times, I'm not saying those are intrinsically bad or even unnecessary. They can be good. But when we invest all of our, most of our discipleship and mission energies into these large gatherings. There's so much other stuff that is just not being worked on. What if we just inverted it and said, let's open up loads of opportunities for people to have private Zoom calls with some mental health professionals at our church. So if you've been, if you're one of the 25% who have been a victim of sexual abuse,

haven't had space to work through that, let's take this opportunity to work through that. The list goes on and on and on. You can even do online forums, conversations with race relations, invite people of color to come and speak into our largely white communities as an educational discipleship opportunity like there's so many things we can do that we need to do that we might have more space now opened up to to do that and this is where i mean i just think that let's not see the closure the temporary closure of large indoor gatherings as a roadblock to discipleship and mission, but rather creating, spawning loads of other creative opportunities. 100%. I so resonate with that, Preston. I really believe that in this crazy moment,

Jesus is doing something beautiful and new. And it's a lot like the second temple's foundation being laid in Zechariah and Ezra. And you have the old guard, right? In Ezra 3, that are like weeping at the new foundation. They're like so sad. It's not as big as the old one, yeah. They're like, and they're weeping over the new thing God is doing. And the younger generation is like cheering. And, you know, there's that verse from a distance you couldn't tell the morning from the cheering because it was just pandemonium. And this is not a shot against ageism. It's a shot against wineskins and the old and the new in conflict. And I think if we focus on what's dying in this moment,

we might miss the slow and steady rise of what's coming to life. And if we find that there's a political impetus behind our angst, I love what Rich Valota says, if we fit neatly in a political party, we might not fit neatly in the kingdom of God. Rich is awesome. I love that guy. Yeah. So that's why there's good and wise reasons. At the end of the day, like Preston, whoever's listening, please know this. Every pastoral team just wants to be able to pray and listen to the Spirit for their own local church, make decisions in love, and be able to stand back and say, this seems good to us and to the Spirit. That's good.

Like every local church. So it's easy to hear different vision as divisive, because this moment is so divisive. I think some leaders are divisive. I think some leaders are divisive. Some leaders are leading in a way that I believe is civil disobedience in an unjustifiable, biblically unjustifiable way. That might be my bias. Yeah. But I think most, for the most part, church leaders are just freaking trying to figure out how to do next week.

And I just, I do wonder. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. But, and like Chris Venon said on your podcast a couple months ago, God is pulling off the scaffolding. Yeah. Like the church, the people, like the new church thing that this will be 100 years from now, it's going to endure. The temple is going to endure. But God is pulling off the scaffolding.

And for some, it looks like the church is failing and the church isn't gathering and the old thing is leaving. So let's all weep and be civil disobedience and try to emphasize the wrong things. But I think God will have his way. Not even the gates of hell prevail against the church. Yeah. Hey, for those of you who are joining me, a bunch of people watching live right now, feel free to ask a question if you want. I got a couple, not questions, just statements. One guy says, I'm a big fan of both these guys. So thank you very much, Stephen Cooper. Brian Christensen, what's up, dude? Really glad to find this combo. If you have any other questions you want to throw at Evan and i go ahead and throw them out we're talking about um what it is to do and be and lead the church in

california during this season and also um the politicalization of it all let's transition to mask wearing what so i masks man so bored that we will find mask wearing to debate about like are we i don't it's really i i i just wonder if i mean this is like the the the the spotlight is on the issue that we are that we are wrestling with first world problems when we invest total energy and anger and all this stuff let me give let me give you my opinion before just so please and then i'm fine if there's disagreement here so this is why we're here i texted you today for your opinion and it turned and it turned into a youtube live so what's your opinion okay so uh real quick somebody says who is this so this is uh i i press and sprinkle um and this is uh evan wickham evan is a singer songwriter worship leader and a pastor

and church planner in san diego and pastoring for two and a half three years yeah okay and you were a worship leader for several years at john mark Comer's network of churches up in Portland before that. Yeah, yeah. Still love to lead. Yeah. Older brother of Phil Wickham. That's true. Older brother.

Phil Wickham. More experienced, more mature, better looking, wiser. Wow. So let me just give you my two cents. First of all, I'm not a scientist. Okay. So take, I'm'm just i'm reading stuff um as i followed the mask conversation it went from masks don't do anything uh the who said this i think the cdc said this back in january um in february the surgeon general said stop buying mass people and i think he was referring

to the n95 medical mass like you're gobbling up these masks that are needed by the health professionals and then it went into well masks do so there's two categories of of of uh airborne of airborne spread contagious. There's aerosols and droplets. By March, we said, well, masks do present droplets. Like if you sneeze and you have a mask on, you're going to prevent a lot of droplets from going out. As far as aerosols go, masks aren't going to do a whole lot. aren't going to do a whole lot um yeah now in crowded spaces um mass can't the science so right now the science seems to be a little mixed but overall they do seem to reduce both especially the spread and let to a lesser extent the the receptive, whatever, like the catching of an aerosol, whether droplets or aerosol, they're not going to prevent you from getting it.

But they can play a role in lessening the spread. So in closed doors, in closed quarters, when you're close to other people, especially when it's a little harder to social distance. Wearing a mask can and probably does play a role in reducing the spread. If you're on a beach and you're 50 feet away from somebody else, it's irrelevant. When I'm outside on a walk and I'm crossing another side of the street, I'm not wearing a mask. When I'm outside, I'm not wearing a mask unless I'm in an area where I'm in crowded areas. But I've told my whole family, when we go to stores, when we go inside anywhere, we have to wear a mask unless i'm unless i'm in a area where i'm in in you know crowded areas but i've told my whole family if when we go to stores when you go inside anywhere we have to wear a mask it plays a role it's one small expression of loving your neighbors yourself and um it's uncomfortable whatever but it's a very tiny okay a little bit uncomfortable who the heck cares if it plays some

role in reducing the spread then let's play our play our part how am i doing so far is that is that um am i anything else you've seen that is different than that or um yeah that sounds good to me i'm not a scientist either i'm i'm just i'm just a pastor receiving health orders from the government that jesus commands me to submit to so yeah like i i yeah i can't understand the frustration among some people because there's been such mixed reports but people are learning like this is a whole new thing we're still learning so give even experts are still learning so just because we haven't had a you know in january 1st the you know end all unified perspective on mask wearing for maybe single scientists.

Well, we're all we're still learning this. I here's my one. Well, I get several caveats, but I do think there has been a lot of virtue signaling and politicalization of the whole thing. thing i wonder right if the fact that until a couple days ago trump was so anti-mask wearing and because the left defines their existence by being anti-trump that the hyper pro-mask wearing and political shaming of those who are either don't wear a mask or are questioning mask is partly a negative reaction against the right who because of trump oh sure downplay mass and that's where i'm like okay i give up is there is there a huge like hyper pro mask contingency in idaho idaho is um very conservative i don't love the term conservative yeah it would be much more on the

right uh but boise where i live is actually i think 60 70 percent democrat so it's a weird blend um i see gotcha most people now i would say two months ago half the people were wearing masks indoors at walmart and i'll just look walmart was 10 percent were wearing masks um lowes was about 25 40 percent um whole food whole so these places don't require masks whole foods trader joe's 90 and the 10 that don't wear them are being shamed and looked down upon what's fast that that's even fascinating what political party goes to walmart what political party goes to whole foods no i'm serious it's it's sociologically fascinating to me um now yeah yeah so now every indoor place is requiring to wear masks now so yeah we all wear masks oh gotcha gotcha there you go yeah yeah yeah i don't even know where to go with with this one because like you said even dr fauci

america's favorite expert whatever yeah he's learning and he's said different things um one thing he did say in a recent interview that i thought was fascinating and it's it's the bigger concern to me and it's the concern for the vulnerable. Like, I don't know every little thing we can do to help the vulnerable, but he said something interesting. The most important message we can get across right now is to support any efforts we can to protect those that are vulnerable. And at the same time, this message is so hard to communicate to healthy people. Yeah. How do you communicate genuine, like other centered concern in people, in Americans who are, who believe themselves invincible and healthy and between 18 and 29,

which is over 50% of our church. Yeah. So, um, so, and then he said this, which was the most interesting thing. He's like, isn't that how a society will be judged by how they defer to the vulnerable? And I was like, Whoa. And, and then he said, I just don't know how to communicate this message. And I'm listening to this podcast interview. Like we have Matthew 25, like the church has this, this has been the Matthew 25, like the church has this. This has been the message of Jesus from the beginning and the message of the Old Testament, where God's leaders who were basically getting fat wallets on systems of oppression that kept the vulnerable out of play in God's economy, God's greatest anger is displayed at those groups.

And so we have to ask ourselves, are we really leading culture in, like you said, displays of concern for the vulnerable? You said the mask is a expression of concern for the vulnerable. And I would agree. I mean, that's how society interprets it. It's also virtue signaling. Any expression for the vulnerable can also be misconstrued as virtue signaling, or it could actually be virtue signaling. Like, you know

what I mean? So at this point, I'm like, we have Matthew 25. I can wear a mask. Am I going to require it at a gathering? I don't know. We don't do physical gatherings yet. We're still online. We are recommending them for our smaller groups. What else can you do? Yeah, if it were me, yeah, I'd require a mask. Any indoor, where it is reasonable, like if you're indoors and you are gathering, let's just say when the thing lifts a little bit, if it's highly recommended by the majority of scientific experts as a means of reducing the harm for the vulnerable,

then what would be the reasoning not to? Every reasoning I've heard is either selfish or it's kind of like conspiracy theorists like well they don't do anything because i read an article on that you know what i'm like well i i get the frustration of the you know different perspectives but overall even somebody even somebody as conservative as ben shapiro says wear a mask like he's a huge advocate for wearing a mask. And he would say all the same things. He would say, look, the conflicting science,

they're not going to prevent you, da-da-da. But at the end of the day, if it can play some role in reducing it, wear a mask. Love your neighbor. Yeah. So it seems like it really is some people on the fringes, well, fringe right, that would be adamantly against wearing a mask. Either of, you can't tell me what to do. The government's not going to tell me what to do. some people on the fringes will fringe right that would be adamantly against wearing a mask either

of you can't tell me what to do the government's not gonna tell me what to do that that's is that is that a christian posture because somebody told you to do something therefore you resist that just seems 100 completely out of the flesh like and that's just not stemming from a christian virtue yeah uh i'm i'm really i'm really moving into the second half of 2020 as a church leader for our community with the trope, the capital E enemy is the enemy. The capital E enemy is the enemy. This is going to be the most divisive election season in our lifetime. In our lifetime. And the enemy is the enemy.

Ephesians 6.12. I mean, and it's also very possible. And this is important, I think, in the California moment. It's very possible to be passionate about Jesus and dead wrong about government. Like Peter was. The result of Peter's passion for Jesus and error about Rome was he cut off the ear of the person Jesus wanted to save. And so what I'm seeing now, and I could be biased, I could be wrong, I could be interpreted as arrogant here, but I'm seeing a huge dagger swipe at Gavin Newsom's ear

by the conservative, politically invested, Jesus passionate, prayer passionate, evangelism passionate, mega church culture in California, just taking a swipe at Gavin Newsom's ear, calling him evil and psychopathic and just outright dishonoring him as the governing authority that God is sovereignly allowed to be over us. And in doing so, are we not cutting off the ear of the very person Jesus wants to heal? And so for us, we've decided... What was that? You finish your sentence. I got something I was asking. Oh, for us, we've decided that Acts 2 47 needs to be in the cards. If we move forward as a church,

it needs to be in such a way that we're not only growing in favor with the church, but we're growing in favor with all the people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good, man. I was going to ask, I mean, well, we got about a few questions here. Um, actually this one's really good. And this is not persecution. This is, I super cringe. I cringe deep in my soul when I hear conservative Christians of whom I am one. When I hear my beloved conservative Christian family say, this is persecution.

That kind of sort of, oh, I don't know, like super minimizes Christians in North Korea, Afghanistan, South Korea, Sudan, you name it. This is a temporary, yeah, this is just a temporary, temporary adjustment to our gatherings, which we still are allowed to gather. Sports can't gather and neither can concerts, but churches can, just with modifications. How much of our traditional brand of church service is lost when we move it online and i say this almost to our shame a bunch of people sit back they watch a few people on stage do their thing they sing they receive a monologue they go on stage closes in prayer and they're in a good church there might be some social interaction. I've gone to churches all over the place where, and even most pastors will say, yeah, Sunday morning is not where you really get one-on-one interaction.

So all that stuff, most of the stuff that happens in a traditional church service, you could do online anyway. It's like, and I say that almost to our shame, like maybe we've created a kind of church service that shouldn't be so easily just put online. But I want to get to a question here because it's a good question from a good friend of mine, Brian Christensen. Brian's an awesome dude. What would you do if to someone in the body that is teaching different than elders with regard to masks, rebel against mask order, remove from youth group leadership, etc. Yeah. So how do you, if you can speak to this, maybe from your own context,

I assume there's people in your context that are not agreeing with everything you're saying. How do you handle that as a Christian leader? Totally. Well, first of all, we don't have in-person gatherings on Sundays. It's all online. So that question doesn't apply to Sundays. Second of all, we do have 30 community groups that are able to gather in one of three ways. Number one, over Zoom. Number two, outdoors, distanced with masks, recommended. Or number three, like distance and safely indoors in smaller groups. And so they, and they can do any blend of those three, depending on immunocompromised in the, in their communities or whatever. Um, and so we just give them that information. Okay. Um, and then they roll with it. Okay. And we also give them tools on how to,

And then they roll with it. And we also give them tools on how to talk about the underlying motivations behind their disagreements. Like scale of one to ten, how passionate are you about wearing masks or not wearing masks? Right, right. And that's a talking point in a community meeting and saying why. And next question, how important is it to you to submit to the desires of another over your own desires? And then those become talking points. Yeah, yeah. And so instead of just policing their Monday through Saturday, we just give them community talking points that help them get to core motivations.

And then we tell them to pray and listen to the spirit on what they should do about it. So my answer might be different if we had in-person Sunday gatherings. Um, but that's where we're at now. That's good. No, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like you said earlier, you don't want to be, you want to maintain the unity of the church and that's gotta be as a pastor, man, that's gotta be really hard when you have people, I imagine your church has people all across the political spectrum. All across. The theological spectrum, to me, seems almost easier than people across the political spectrum. And again, I say that to our church's shame.

There would be that invested in the politics that that disunity would almost be more exposed than theological incongruence. than theological incongruence. But yeah, that's not every, some churches have more one-sided view on politics, which I don't think that's super healthy. But yeah, my heart goes out to you, bro. Really, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I just, moving into this election cycle,

the enemy is the enemy. The enemy is the enemy. And it's possible to be passionate moving into this election cycle, the enemy is the enemy. The enemy is the enemy. And it's possible to be passionate about Jesus, level 9,000 passionate about Jesus, and dead wrong about government, just like Peter. And, you know, we follow every, following Jesus means submission to every human authority, not just the ones we like.

Yeah. And so we preach we preach that. Yeah. And I think I think honestly, the mask thing falls under Matthew, you know, Matthew 541, where he's like, if if your perceived enemy requires you to go one mile. Hey, heck, let's go to let's put on like a really thick mask. That's good, man. I mean, think of that command was given to Galileans, hyper-nationalistic Jewish Galileans. And Roman soldiers would be like, here, carry my sword. I might kill you with at the end of this walk. And Jesus is like, yeah, not just one mile, but offer a second mile. This is so un-American, but it's so Christian. And so, I mean, a mask is the least we can do. It says my computer is about to die, even though I'm plugged in and it is charging so just in case it cuts out that's why it might be just a misreading but um I want to let you go anyway

Evan but uh any last words you're a again Evan's a pastor worship leader in California you're navigating the tough intersection between um faith and uh politics in an interesting age. Any last words for Christian leaders out there? Oh man, I just, so I'm such a fan of churches doing it differently, churches that are doing it like us, that are not doing it like us, cheering you guys on. I really think in this crazy moment, it's so easy for people to hear different vision as divisive rhetoric. And I think we need to be so intentional to say in your recorded announcements, in your live stream Sunday services, just say, hey, it blows where he wants to.

John 3, the Spirit does whatever the heck he wants. Here in our community, we're doing it this way. It seems good to us and to the Spirit. The church over there, they are gathering, or they're not gathering. They're doing it differently, and we're cheering them on by name. I really think we need to be explicit. Otherwise, it gets lost on people, and people just hear division. So if we're explicitly cheering on churches doing it differently by name in our churches, I think that's 1 Corinthians 1, 10 unity, Ephesians 4 unity, John 17 unity. We just need to be hyper explicit to cheer on churches doing it differently.

That's what I would say. I think our visual is choppy right now. The internet must be weak, but I'm going to let you go, man. Thanks so much for jumping on this conversation in 10 minutes. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well, I hope this is helpful for you guys out there in cyberspace.

As you navigate this conversation, again, I want to acknowledge that neither Evan or I are experts on masks or even we're not political scientists. We're just two Christians trying to navigate the intersection between faith and our volatile culture we're living in. So thanks for being on the show, Evan. We'll talk to you later. For sure. Thank you.