Theology in the Raw - 805: Gay, Christian, and Coming Out: Dr. Greg Coles

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

My good friend Dr. Greg Coles hangs out with me in my basement and we talk about faith, sexuality, and what it was like to comeout as gay. Greg gives some fantastic advice to Christian parents with gay kids and how to respond well when they come out. He also helps those who are wrestling with their sexuality to consider the right context, time, and person to come out to. Greg has an awesome book titled "Single, Gay, Christian," which you can buy here: Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Or Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Watch the podcast on YouTube Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. You are in for a treat in this episode I have on the show. I have In My Basement. Okay, this one is actually coming to you live, not live, but recorded from my actual basement. Greg was in town, we were hanging out and I said, let's go do a podcast in my basement. No, no, no, let's go do two podcasts in my basement. So what no, no. Let's go do two podcasts in my basement. So what you're going to listen to is part one of a two part series. In this episode, Greg shares his story of discovering his sexuality and the fact that he was gay, growing up in a solid Christian home. He talks a lot about his coming out experience,

how he wrestled with that, how his parents handled it. And it's just a super awesome conversation. Greg is one of the most enjoyable human beings that I've ever been around. Gay, straight, bi, trans, or whatever. Greg is a fine specimen of a human being and he's incredibly smart, incredibly bright. In this conversation, yeah, he talks about his coming out story in the next conversation. We are going to spend a lot of time on the phrase gay Christian. OK, I know that's a it's a debated phrase. It's a confusing phrase for some people. And Greg is going to unpack what he means when he says the phrase great gay Christian.

That's on the next episode. So please make sure you stay tuned for that one. If you would like to support the show, you can go to theology or no, you can go to patreon.com, patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support show for as little as two. I just butchered this support your show for five bucks a month. That's the minimum. I mean, again, you can give two bucks a month. You're not gonna get anything in return. You can give 20 cents a month, I think.

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the raw. I could not do this without you. And I truly, truly mean that. Thanks for your support, for the love, for the great conversations we have on the Patreon platform. So without further ado, let's get to know my good friend, author, speaker, scholar, Greg Coles. Okay, hello, friends. I'm here with my friend. Oh, you got to do this. What do you do?

What do you do? I'm here with Greg Coles, aka author, speaker, and cover personality. Is that... Do I have the smile right? Is it like... That's my line. A little up, a little up.

There you go. All right. So what's so exciting about this is i mean i get i talk to loads of people in my basement in the theology in the raw basement all the time but they're not with me am i your first you are my uh at least second i had a local guy, John Whitaker, down here once. You might be number two. You're the only out-of-towner. Ah, yes.

And I hope the audio... So, yeah, you get the advantage of seeing what goes on behind the scenes here. This is pretty epic. It's a nice setup, I can confirm for you. Very, very exciting setup. A little messy, a little messy. We shoved everything to the side.

I hope the audio is going to be good. We cranked it up. I only, I have a couple of my microphones, but my interface does not, is not happy with my other microphones. So we're going to share one. So hopefully it's okay. What do you want to talk about?

Let's talk about Single Gay Christian, the title of this wonderful book. I'll start with the story. How's that? Yeah, please do. Please do. A few years ago. I like the way you tell it too.

Really? Yeah. I don't think I'm a good storyteller. Oh, I think you're great. 2017 is when it came out. So I think I got the email in January. It was right at the time of the year. Yeah, it would have been January.

January 2017, I was in the middle. That was right when the Center for Face, Sexuality, and Gender started in January 2017. was in the middle that was right when the center for center for face sexuality and gender started in January 2017 oh really that's probably why when I got the email

from Greg Coles who I didn't know from Adam saying hey would you consider endorsing my book and I was just over the top

just in over my head with all this work and stuff going on and I I think I replied kindly I mean oh yeah

you were you were very pleasant okay okay something along the lines of uh thank you for engaging this topic i'm sure it's a wonderful book but i have no time to um no time to consider an endorsement to which you replied i was like that's you know i i totally understand that's, you know, I totally understand. That's no problem. In case you're interested, here's like the introduction of the book. You can just, you know, just if you have time. read at least two chapters without planning on doing anything i said this book is awesome this is an incredible book now um there i i would say there's a good number of memoirs out there that are good ones that i'm like it especially now there's more and more i've got loads on here um but it was the it was it was how beautifully written yours was and the way you weaved memoir with theological and even philosophical and even linguistic conversations. So like my intellectual itch was being scratched. I was also entering into another person's story, which as a straight guy entering into somebody

who is gay, you know, entering in that story was, it's always so helpful for me to do. I was just blown away. It was an incredible book. Well, Shaxx, thank you very much. One more time, single gay Christian, if you're looking for a really good and short. It is pretty short, yeah. That's only 110 pages. Yeah, 33,000 words for those of you who keep word counts. That's really short. Wow. Yeah.

So, yeah, all the more reason. Yeah, quick read. Sometimes I buy these books and I forget to check the page numbers. And I'm like, oh, I'd love to check check that out and it's like a 500 page book and i'm like oh my gosh and then i feel since i bought it i feel committed like i have to slug my way through it so all my reading disappears anyway i'm talking too much i want to hear your i want well i know your story i want people to know who greg coles is those who don't know who you are so give us give us the uh maybe the shorter medium version of your story. I want people to know who Greg Coles is, those who don't know who you are. So give us maybe the shorter, medium version of your story, and then we'll maybe tease out some elements of

that. Sure. Yeah. So I grew up overseas, actually, in Indonesia. My family moved to Indonesia when I was three years old. And my dad was an English teacher. And so, uh, so growing up, I grew up in the church and very adjacent to conversations about faith. Um, and, and it wasn't, it was when I hit puberty, which is, you know, always a wonderful time for any, like any story that begins in puberty, you know, it's going to be a great story. But as I was hitting puberty, I was recognizing that I didn't seem to fit into the narratives that I'd heard about how sexuality was supposed to go. And so there was a season of time where the thing that I assumed was that eventually I would become straight because that was what people seemed to be telling me was the going thing. I distinctly remember there was a book that I will not name lest we, lest we shame the authors, but it was a book that was all about like how young men should deal with their sexuality. And all of it, of course, assumed that all the young men were straight. And then at the end, there was this like three page chapter called something like,

if your feelings are for other guys. And, and that chapter was full of all the useful information I needed. Like it's very statistically rare and probably won't happen to you. And, and that chapter was full of all the useful information I needed. Like it's very statistically rare and probably won't happen to you. And if it did, it's probably because your father was distant and your mother was overbearing and just pray about it enough. And you'll probably turn out to be straight in the end. So, so, you know, equipped with that excellent advice. I, I, well, I was like, number one, I was like, my parents are kind of awesome. So how dare you? But praying I can do. So I was like, I'm a pray. So that was my plan through middle school and high school and college. I did a bit of dating, dated a lovely young woman

in college. I had excellent taste in women. I just didn't know how to be attracted to them. excellent taste in women. I just didn't know how to be attracted to them. And then there came a point, there was an almost relationship that I had right after college. And as I was sort of wrestling with the question of, should I go for this relationship and got this really clear no from God, then I started to kind of grapple with what does it mean if I'm hearing God say correctly that I'm actually going to be gay for my entire life? Um, and do I need to rethink what the Bible has to say about sexual ethics? Do I even believe in God in the first place? Uh, so, so I wrestled through all of those questions, came to kind of a tentative place

of understanding in my own mind to say, I think it's okay if I stay gay in the sense that that doesn't wreck my theology of God. God is allowed to have me have a sexual attraction, even if he says that I'm not called to act on it in a sexual relationship with another guy. So then wrestling through what singleness looks like, is singleness just terrible and depressing? At the time, I sort of sorted through my own understanding and decided, OK, I think I'm going to be celibate. The plan at first was I'm going to be celibate. But anytime anyone asks me why I'm celibate, I'm just going to say, I feel the Lord is calling me to singleness at this time. And I'd gotten very good at saying that, like, oh, you know, like, at least for now, I sense a calling to singleness at this time. And I'd gotten very good at saying that, like, oh, you know, like,

at least for now, I sense a calling to singleness. And everyone was always so kind to reassure me, like, oh, you'll get married, like someone like you must get married. And I deeply moved. So the plan was that I would never tell anyone about it. And then hopefully I would die without anybody finding out that I was gay, which obviously has worked out very well for me now. Um, uh, yeah, this was my, this was my strategy to die without anyone knowing I was gay. Um, no, but there, but there came a time and I think it was when I was around 25. Yeah, I was 25. Um, and I was having this time of prayer with God and saying like, God, like I want to give you everything. I want to serve you in whatever way. And God was like, everything, like everything. And I was like, okay, everything except nobody can know that I'm gay.

And God was like, let's revisit that, shall we? So as I sort of wrestled with that question, like, what would it look like if I started to live my life in such a way that I wasn't just bemoaning the fact like, oh, isn't it tragic that I have this experience of sexuality? But what would it look like to actually say maybe the Lord was purposeful, not that I'm blaming God for making me gay, but maybe the Lord was purposeful in allowing me to have the experience of sexuality that I have at the time in the world that I happen to have it. Is it possible that God wants me to do something more than just pretend like a not very good straight person and die? So armed with that question, like, is there something else I should be doing about my sexuality? I came out to my pastor.

And then not long after that, I came out to my parents. And around that same time, I wrote an email to Wesley Hill, who's the author of The Excellent Washed and Waiting. That's probably somewhere up on this shelf here, too, isn't it? I've got a couple. Oh, yeah. Washed and Waiting, which is a terrific book. I wrote him an email and writing Wes was the first time that I'd ever sort of written anything of my story down. Because of course, if you write something down and then don't immediately burn it or delete it, there's a risk that after you die, your family will be going through your files and they'll like

posthumously discover that you're gay. And I was like, well, that's terrible. So, so I hadn't written anything down, but then I wrote Wes an email and he wrote back because he's awesome. And there was something about writing that email that I was like, oh, like that was kind of, that felt kind of good. Like there was some kind of catharsis or self discovery or something worthwhile. And so, so I started writing more. I was supposed to be working on a novel that summer. I had, I had an agent, a literary agent who was supposed to be helping me sell a novel. But the first novel I'd written, no publishing companies wanted to buy it. So, so I was working on a second novel and I kept every time I would sit down to write my novel, I would just be like, I have nothing to say. I had like terrible writer's block that summer.

And what my agent said to me, he was like, look, Coles, here's the writing advice. What you got to do when you hit writers, he was like, you sit down with a blank page and you just write whatever comes out of you. And he was like, and no one has to see it, but you just write it. So I was like, this is sound writing advice. So I kept having writer's block that summer. And so what I would do is I would open up a Word document and I would just start to write. And because I'd just written an email to Wesley Hill and I'd just come out to my parents and I'd just come out to my pastor and I was thinking through all these questions, what is my life supposed to look like? That was what I wrote about.

And so I just wrote about it all summer. And by the time the summer was over, I looked at what I had written and I was like, it's kind of like I wrote a book. So that your book was almost an accident, like just you putting your thoughts out there. And there are still, which is still like, so if you should happen to read the book, which I would be honored if you do, but no pressure. to read the book, which I would be honored if you do, but no pressure. But like, if you read it, there are places in the book where you see sort of the vestiges of the fact that I did not write this book as somebody who was planning to publish a book. Because so the last long chapter of the book, I think there are eight chapters. Yeah, chapter eight is all about me wrestling with the question of whether or not I should come out. And I literally wrote that sitting at my computer in my in my apartment being like, I have no idea.

Should I come out or not? Should I come out or not? And so I'm just like typing like here are all the reasons I would. Here are the reasons I wouldn't. Here are stories that make me wonder one way or the other. And yeah. So then so then I took all that and i was like ah we'll just make it into a book i guess so yeah yeah i wonder too because sometimes like as a writer to writer like when when you're so focused like okay i have the book contract i'm writing this thing it's almost like it can stifle your writing when there's already like a predetermined end you have a deadline you have this, that kind of pressure.

I could, I've never done it that way where I just start writing just for the sake of writing something. I bet it feels more free to do that. I mean, it is beautiful. I mean, so I can say by point of comparison, because my forthcoming book, I did write under contract. So it's similar in style to this one. Um, but there were, there were moments,

there were definitely moments in writing the new book manuscript where I would find myself getting a little stuck as I was writing and feeling like this feels insincere or it doesn't feel as like as sort of raw and real as I wanted it to. And I'm not sure why. And I realized the problem was I kept sort of rehearsing in my mind, like this is for this audience. I know because I signed this contract, what do they want to hear? And so it had to become sort of a writerly discipline in my life to stop and sort of get away from my computer and pray and just say, God, can you help me like write as honestly as I possibly can and forget for a moment the fact that I'm planning to like share this with as many people as want to read it so that I can actually speak honestly about myself.

So you said you mentioned in the past a couple of times coming out to your parents. And I know in many conversations with gay people, as you know, as well, firsthand and also from other people, that can be a really terrifying experience. And you're I've met you. I've had the joy of meeting your parents. but yeah, your parents are awesome. Super cool. But even with awesome parents, it can be terrifying. I would love for you to just maybe speak to the people watching right now,

maybe their parents with gay kids, or maybe they are gay, thinking about coming out to their parents. Could you walk us through maybe some of the do's and don'ts, maybe from a parental perspective, or even prepare somebody who might be contemplating coming out to their parents? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll narrate first a couple of things that were sort of distinctive about my coming out to my parents. One was that I waited until I was 25. And certainly I didn't

have to wait that long. So this was one of the interesting dynamics about when I did come out to my parents. And they were great. Yeah, they were really great in all the ways, which I'll continue to tell you about. But one thing that we kind of talked about is they were sort of processing with me, like saying, we feel sad now, knowing that there was like this weight that you were carrying. And had we known we would have loved to like carry it with you sooner, you know, we would have loved for you to not feel as alone as you did for as long as you did. Um, and so they would have loved to walked with you through your high school years and

everything. I mean, I think certainly, certainly that, that was, that was the way that was the way that they felt at the time that I came out. And I think in a sense, yeah, like they absolutely would have loved to be available for all that. But I think it was also important for me to recognize. So the reason that I didn't come out to my parents sooner, well, there are a number of reasons. One is coming out to anybody, it always feels like the more people you tell, the more permanent something feels like it becomes. And so the more my thinking was sort of influenced by like the ex-gay narrative, the more I felt like, ah, like this is ephemeral. This is going to go away, you know, next week, God willing, you know, I'll have my charismatic experience and then we'll be good. And the more I spoke about it or thought about it, the more it sort of seemed to concretize the experience. And so I had a fear of naming it

for that reason. I also, I think instinctively I was, even though I had sort of bought into the ex-gay narrative that said like, you should pray, you should try to not be gay. I was, even though I had sort of bought into the ex-gay narrative that said, like, you should pray, you should try to not be gay. I was very suspicious of ex-gay ministries. Something about the vibe that I got from them. I'm at least charismatic enough, or I at least believe sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is still doing things today to say, I think there was some grace in the Holy Spirit giving me a little bit of sense ahead of time. You don't want the baggage that would come with being part of an ex-gay ministry. Interesting.

Can you, in concrete ways, what did your parents do well? Sure. And maybe, what have you maybe heard other other parents again, because we don't want to throw anybody on the bus. Everybody's well intentioned doing the best. But maybe what are some things parents, characteristic things parents have done that have had maybe a negative effect? Oh, sure. Sure. So, yes. So some things that my parents did well. Number one uh they were they were really quick to affirm their love for me uh kind of at all parts of our conversation um you know that that was how they began in their response it was how they ended in their response we probably talked for about two hours um oh wait i came out to them

via phone call also this is a useful detail this is not like a recommendation to you like if you're thinking like how should i come out to my parents? I don't recommend the phone call if you have like the in-person option. But in my defense, my parents were on a different continent at the time. So it just, yeah. Waiting until they came back to America

didn't seem like a good plan. So it was a phone call, but it was a long phone call. I probably walked like six miles and drank through two liters of water while we were talking. Um, I had to take a little interlude in the middle because I drank so much water that I really, really had to pee.

And I was walking by our church building, which I had a key to in my pocket. And I was like, mom and dad, I'm gonna call you back. I got to pee. And then I was like, we'll continue talking about the fact that I'm gay right after I pee. Uh, so there was a little intermission. Um, but over the course of that two hours, uh, they were really quick to affirm their love for me. And that was, gay right after IP. So there was a little intermission. But over the course of that two hours, they were really quick to affirm their love for me. And that was really important.

Another thing that was helpful was that they asked questions in a way that indicated that they wanted to know more, that they wanted to understand, but not in a way that felt prying or leading or aggressive in any sense. Okay, like just genuine questions. Just sincere, like, hey, we want to know. And how is that? Just because you know your parents? Was it their tone?

Like what was it about the question that felt genuine? Or is it just intuitive? You can just tell when something's genuine? I think often we know our parents well enough to know what they're actually up to. I think had my parents been intending to lead me in a certain direction, no matter how much they tried to mask that fact for me, I don't think my parents are good enough actors to have fooled me. What about that girl you dated? Or what about, you know, like. And I mean, my dad did genuinely ask questions like, yeah, like I'm curious.

Oh, and it's also it's also important to note, like they didn't ask these questions in a like, okay, Greg, like you owe us some explanations. And they certainly said like, hey, like if there's stuff that we ask you that you don't feel comfortable answering, like that's fine. So they even said that? Yeah. Oh yeah. But they said like, if you're like, if you're comfortable talking more about this, like

we do, we do have things that like we'd love to know more about you know what you're telling us okay wow what are some things you've heard maybe from other parents are coming out stories they're kind of and let's assume that there's people out there that really don't oh sure they're coming out this like oh my gosh my kid just came out a week ago yeah they don't have any real good framework like so even if it sounds really basic like what are some real basic things? And maybe some more, maybe not so basic things. Yeah.

I think one thing, so especially for Christian parents, one thing that is often really well-intentioned, but is really unhelpful in coming out conversation, is to ask, or try to move people in the direction of like, but how could we, how could we help you be straight? How could we fix this? Um, how could we, um, like, Oh, like, I hope that, I hope that one day, like you don't have this struggle, you know, I hope we're going to pray that the Lord does heal you of this. Um, I, I, so I, when I, whenever I have people volunteer to like pray for my healing, um, a thing that I often say to them is like, I would love for you to pray for me. And like, if, if you're praying and you feel like the thing, the Holy spirit really wants you to pray for is that I will become straight. Like, Hey, like you, you and Jesus do you, you know,

I, you can pray for whatever you want. But I'll always say, like, the thing that I'm praying for is that I will, like, be more obedient to Jesus, that I'll fall more in love with Jesus, that I will be transformed more into the likeness of Jesus. And theologically, and we can talk more about this, you know, or you can read more about it elsewhere. Theologically, I think there's a pretty good case to be made that becoming straighter does not make you more like Jesus, that heterosexuality is not like the graven path to holiness. Straight is where it's at, man. We have no struggles. It's just nothing but just clothed in purity. There's no lust. Wait, there's a story of you when you first were realizing your sexuality, when you actually thought you were way holier than all the other straight kids.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That was like my initial, my initial impression of, of my sexuality was that I would go to youth group cause you know, grew up in the church. And so in youth group, when they would like split the boys and the girls up to talk about sex, the thing that they would tell the boys was like, Hey, look, boys, we know what you're all going through. You want to look at pictures of naked women, but don't do it. And I was like, great. Like, don't look at pictures of naked women. They were like, when you find yourself staring at a woman's breast, look up at her face. And I was like, I love women's faces. This is great. You know? So I felt so well, I was like like i might be like the holiest 12

year old in the world like i'm so good at this um so so yeah so it wasn't until i like began to realize like oh wait i do have an experience of sexuality um and then you went from like holiest saint to like right right shame yeah like i'm the holiest like all of a sudden i'm the one who's like so awful that nobody even bothered to warn me that i might exist um but but it was and and uh and i remember a time too when i was like uh this is not long after i began to realize like oh i think i'm gay that's bad um i remember like i remember seeing like a picture of a scantily clad woman somewhere it might have been like a bathing suit ad or something. And I remember being like, you know, I've heard that if I were straight, which would be like the ideal thing, like that would be my healing.

I was like, I've heard if I were straight, I would feel things about this picture. Like I would be able to like or I would want to lust after this picture. And I was like, I'm going for it. You know, so I like take the picture and I was like trying. Like I'm like trying to lust after the picture. That like take the picture and I was like, trying, like, I'm like trying to lust after the picture. That's how upside down the, the straight equals holiness narrative is. You're like trying to lust in a straight way.

Exactly. Which like, yeah, I don't think it was until I was like, yeah, it probably wasn't until I was like 25, 26 that it occurred to me to be like, Oh wait,

it's actually really convenient that I don't experience any temptation to lust after women. Like I didn't experience any temptation to lust after women. Like I didn't have a category in my mind to appreciate the fact that that could be a gift, that that could be like a bit of God's grace to me. So. Okay. So let's go back to the parent thing as a little detour. So some negative things are, so you don't, as a parent, you don't want to have like a fix it attitude,

whatever that looks like, like we can fix this. I've heard that a lot from like really well-intentioned parents. And again, I want to both reaffirm that that attitude is well-intentioned. You want it with the best for your kid. You see a problem. What are some other things that you've seen parents do that just are, have a negative effect on the relationship? Yeah. I think another, and this is one,

this one's not directly relevant to my experience in part because I waited, I waited until I had sort of done all of my theological homework and landed pretty tidily for myself before I came out to my parents, which was in part just because I figured like, I think I can do this without roping them into it. And I think it would just be, there's like a lot of extra emotional burden for them. I was like, this is going to be hard enough for them. Like we don't have to give them one more thing to do. But I think there are a lot of people who are not wired like me, Um, uh, but, but I think there are a lot of people who are not wired like me, um, who, who would need to be out in that kind of relationship sooner, um, or who would maybe really want the, the love and support of their parents, which sort of journeying with them

through their questions about sexual ethics. Yeah. Um, so, so even though it worked out in my case that like, I sort of like waited until I was done with the theological conversation to come out. I think in cases where somebody is coming out and they're either just beginning or in the middle of that sort of theological investigation, like, Hey, what does the Bible say about this? Or do I even believe the Bible? Do I even believe in God? Do I actually think that the Bible is a good representation of what God wants from me. I think there can be a temptation, and I've definitely heard some stories of Christian parents who, in their desire to be

helpful in that conversation, really, really push on the like, let's make sure that we get you to the right answer here and defined as the answer that I have landed on. Yeah. So, so don't, don't fast track, uh, the theological conversation, would you say? And also like, don't maybe force a certain conclusion, give people space to wrestle and rest and turn to that wrestling with them or how would you? Yeah. Yeah. I would say, um, I think, I think there's often a temptation, and I think many of us as Christians experience this temptation in a lot of realms, a if the conclusion you're hoping that a sexual minority person will reach about their sexuality is I'm either called to a mixed orientation

marriage with a person of the opposite sex, that's going to be distinctly tricky because of my same sex sexuality, or I'm called to celibacy. Like either one of those callings is going to be really tricky and is going to be costly in a specific kind of way that needs to be rooted in that person's deep conviction that they have received directly from Jesus. So if the only, if the only thing that is causing a person to reach sort of the historic Christian sexual ethic is like, well, my parents said it was a good idea. Um, that like the, ethic is like, well, my parents said it was a good idea. Um, that like the, you can't walk a lifetime of sexual self-denial on the basis of somebody else's faith. I've often heard too, like when, when it feels like there's no space to wrestle on their own, that can oftentimes have a

negative effect. Like if they feel too pressured with the right answer and that they're not just given some space, then they might just run from that context. Have you seen that to be true? Oh, sure. Yeah, there's a phenomenon. What is it that the psychologists call it? Oh, ironic process theory. Oh, what's that? Here we go.

Yeah, yeah. So ironic process phenomenon theory, one of those. It's like when somebody says, don't think about elephants, and all of a sudden you're like, I got elephants on the mind. There can be a tendency, especially among some of us, but I think among a lot of us to feel like the more we're told like, no, like, don't do that.

Don't do that. Don't do that. The more we're like, well, but what if I want to, you know, I would like perfectly. So yeah. So, so it's, it's important that you not create the kind of environment that makes somebody feel like just, just because I feel like I'm only getting one thing from you, I'm going to invest all my energy in trying to explore the thing you won't tell me about. I remember for myself, and again, for me, this was not with my parents, but for me, this was just like reading that I did beforehand, stuff that I was hearing in churches. I got such a one-sided vision of the conversation about sexual ethics when I was growing up. You know, it was a sexual ethics with regard to same-sex sexuality. It basically amounted to like flip open your Bible in the English translation, find the word homosexual in there somewhere. It's bad. You know, case closed, moving on to something more pressing,

like the Calvinist-Arminian debate. Like there was not a lot of thought given to like some of the complexity that does go into this conversation. And so when I began to discover that there was complexity, like I remember the first time I like looked into the Greek and understood like, oh wait, like the Greek word arsenakoitai that appears in first Corinthians and first, like, what do you mean there's no clear like extra biblical explanation of what that word means? What do you mean? There's no clear, like extra biblical explanation of what that word means. What do you mean? We're just kind of guessing. Um, and because nobody had told me with the moment I started to discover, I was like, wait a second, they've been trying to pull the wool over my eyes. And so in fact, the fact that nobody told me about it sooner made me

all the more suspicious of the narrative that I had been given. I cannot reaffirm that more. I mean, this is true of many theological contexts. When any of us are so convinced of a certain conclusion, and yet we haven't genuinely considered the other side, like gone through that process where we've actually understood the arguments, where we've understood before we've ref refuted if all we do is rely on kind of an observation or the conclusion give it to somebody and then when they do their own homework and they find out there's more complexity than they gave off maybe that is the right answer but if sure then it feels like i feel like deceived i feel like the wool's been pulled from my eye. What else is there? And it can have a really negative effect. This is why I tell,

and I don't like these labels, but those who are more, for lack of better terms, on the really conservative end. And typically I, what I mean is they often just kind of quote Romans one. And like, obviously I've had people do,

you know, I did my PhD dissertation on the book of Romans, right? And they're quoting Romans one at me as if I've never read the verse. They'll do it. And I don't know why, because I hold a traditional view of marriage marriage but they'll quote it at me and then that's it like as if it's so but that kind of like quotation without actually wrestling with interpretation um can have a very negative effect on what they're actually trying to accomplish to instill in me what this verse might actually mean yeah so yeah

it's uh it's i don't, what's the psychological phenomenon with that? Maybe it's the same kind of the same kind of area. I mean, I think it's, I think it's similar. There's, I mean, what do I know? Literally the last psychology class I took, I was, I was, I was discussing this with someone the other day. The last and only psychology class I ever took was in the fall of 2008. It was my freshman year of college.

I took intro to psychology with Dr. Rodney Bassett. It was an amazing class. I wish I did a psychology degree, don't you? It's so fantastic. I do so much psychological dabbling now. It's just such a fascinating area. We're going to wrap this up. Let's do another one after this. I want to talk about

language. He's a linguist, by the way. I didn't give you creds, but PhD Penn State in English. We have lots of great conversations about language. In the next episode, I want to talk about the term gay versus same-sex attraction. I want to talk about other terms like the gay lifestyle. And maybe we can get into the relationship between shame and language specifically. That'd be kind of interesting.

If the language thing doesn't take us too far afield, but before we go speak directly to somebody who is a Christian is in a more conservative, or let's just say not a conservative, but like a con a church context that believes in a traditional sexual ethic and they're contemplating coming out. Maybe they're a late teen or an early 20 something, that kind of range. What kind of counsel would you give to that person?

Obviously, you don't know their parents or friends, whatever. Maybe some 30,000-foot pieces of advice as somebody's contemplating coming out. Should they come out? Should they wait? Should they find somebody? What's some concrete advice you can give to that person? Yeah. So I always encourage people in a couple of ways. Number one, I would say it's really important to be known somewhere in some way. And I think specifically, I think it can be really hard for folks who are experiencing same-sex attraction or identify as LGBTQ or as sexual minorities, whatever language you find helpful.

We can talk about that later. It can be really challenging for us, especially when we're closeted. It can be really challenging for us to believe that God loves us. And part of that is that everyone else who's telling us that God loves us, we can sort of put an asterisk next to their statement and say like, well, but if they knew, would they still say that if they knew that I was gay? And the reality is like, when God creates humankind to be in relationship with humankind, when God creates Adam, and then it's like, oh, we should make some more of these. Like part of the reality is that Adam is made to experience the love of God through the love of another human being. And I think, I think that's, that's true of all of us that, that we're

designed to experience the fact that God loves us in part by experiencing it via other people. But as long as everybody around us, we can say like, well, but they don't know everything. And so we sort of caveat. I think it's hard to really and truly believe that God loves us. So coming out to somebody is an ultimate, you would say this is vital, necessary. I mean, not just anybody, but to the person. Yeah. I mean, not trying to rush you and also certainly not just anybody, which let's talk about that in a moment. But, um, but to somebody sometime, maybe sooner than you want to, um, I, I, I just think, I think it's so crucial,

um, for spiritual life and health and growth, um, to not, I think what lives in the darkness accrues shame around it. What lives in the darkness doesn't have the chance to heal. So I think there's a lot of value. Again, I'm not saying come out broadly. I'm not saying you have to write a book about it. But to find at least someone somehow that you can open up that part of yourself to. What kind of person are you looking for?

Does it have to be another gay person, a straight person, somebody who's young, old? What kind of characteristics are they looking for? Does it have to be another gay person, a straight person, somebody who's young, old? What is it? What kind of characteristics are they looking for in somebody? Well, so there are two kinds of people in the world that you could come out to. There are the people who you come out to because it's helpful for you. And there are the people you come out to because it's helpful for them. So for instance- I would think it should only be helpful for you. You would say that you should consider it should only be helpful for you. You would say that you should consider it's helpful for somebody else too. Oh, absolutely. Like for instance,

let's say, let's say that your relationship with your parents is such that, you know, it's not going to feel terribly helpful and it may cause you years of additional pain and agony when you come out to your parents. But you also know in the long run, that's going to be detrimental to our relationship. And they're going to feel unloved if I never have that conversation with them. Then I would say maybe it is worth considering that at some point, maybe I do need to think like, how would this be helpful for someone else? Or for instance, I mean, when I wrote Single Gay Christian and came out to the world. My coming out on Facebook, by the way, this is one of my favorite stories. The way I came out on Facebook is by taking the pre-order link to my book on Amazon.

I remember you saying that. And I just posted it. And so it had like the image of my book and the title and everything. And so I put it on Facebook and I wrote a little message with it that said like, Dear friends, I'm delighted to announce that I have a book coming out. Also, here are a few other things you should know about me. I did not do that for my own personal sense of well-being. And certainly the year immediately following that Facebook post

was probably the worst year of my life in many ways. It was really rough. I can imagine some of the trolls are going to Facebook. Did you get some nasty comments or? Well, so here's the, here's what I did, which, Oh, this is a, this is a coming out recommendation. So this question is going to take a little while to answer. No. So I put a little, I put a little note at the end of the post.

And I said, I said, PS, if any of you would like to say anything less than delightful to me about this, please do it privately. And I said, like, I don't want to stifle you. But I said, I want to keep this sort of public space as safe as I possibly can for all the people that I love. Don't do it at all. You actually allowed them some space to say. Oh, I said, like, yeah, like, if you want to. Because I figured, like, there are people who may.

And indeed, there were people who felt like they needed to talk to me. But I wanted to say, me. Um, but, but I wanted to say like, Hey, like, please like do that privately. Um, like don't do it here. Um, there, there are too many people I love that, like, I don't want to make this a terrifying space for them. Was the response largely positive and encouraging? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, far more than I was expecting. Um, but I mean, again, it was, again, it was still hard, but it was really good. But back to coming out. So yeah, so sometimes you come out. So as in the case of me writing a book, sometimes you come out to others because you feel like

I think it might be helpful for others. But when you're initially thinking about coming out, the kind of people you're looking for are not those people. Don't start by coming out to people who you're like, it's helpful for them. No, no, no. This is a thing that you're doing because you're like, my spiritual life needs this in order to be known, in order to fully experience the love of God. And so I think a couple of things that you're looking for, you're looking for somebody who you're confident will have being a conduit of God's love to you as their first priority.

So that means you need somebody who's really godly. Um, and you need somebody who, as much as you can know this ahead of time, you know, is going to respond to you graciously. Um, and I always encourage people. I absolutely did this before I started coming out. Um, maybe it's bad, but I think it's brilliant. I would like, I would like sort of like test people to see whether I, whether I wanted to come out to them. Um, so you can do things like, um, you can like, you can happen to bring up in conversation, like, like, Hey, I read an article recently about such and such. I was just reading this book and, uh, what, it's fascinating. What do you think about, uh,

but, but to see, like to see the, to see the way somebody responds to single game, I mean, uh, is it, is a really good way of gauging how they might respond to you.

Um, uh, they were pulled a friend thing. Like, Hey, I have a friend that just came out to me. What do you think about? See, I never did all kinds of creative things you could do, I guess. Yeah.? Like, hey, I have a friend that just came out to me. What do you think about that? See, I never did.

There's all kinds of creative things you could do, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I found that with the people I knew well enough to be considering as possibilities, I found that eventually either the topic came up anyway and I could sort of gauge how they were addressing it, or I would have a chance subtly at some point to sort of work it in and be like, let's see how they respond.

Well, I think this has been helpful for me, and I've heard many other stories that very much correlate with so much of what you're talking about. Your parental experience, your experience of coming out to your parents, I think in my understanding is probably more on the unique side

but that's just because my parents are so cool I gotta meet your parents they're amazing if they're watching, listening, I'd love to meet you guys sometime so yeah, you've been oh this is for YouTube, I guess I'm supposed to say subscribe below, I'm still getting new to this

whole YouTube, I'm typically a podcaster I'm getting used to YouTube. Subscribe to my channel. And also, but watch the next video because we're, especially if you've heard us say some terms and you're like, whoa, whoa, you came out. I thought you were a Christian. Like, it's not like a non-Christian thing to do.

You know, we're going to talk about language in the next episodes. Okay. Again, I want you to make sure you stay tuned and listen to the next episode where we talk about the phrase gay Christian. And if you have not read his book yet, Single Gay Christian, that's the title of his book. He's got another book coming out soon on, well, I'm not going to spoil the fun. But if you haven't read Single Gay Christian, it's an incredibly good book. Very well written, very engaging. Endorsed by D.A. Carson, one of the co-founders of the Gospel Coalition.

So, yeah, I think that's about it. If you'd like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in a raw. Until next time, we will see you later.