Theology in the Raw - 810: Transgender and the Gospel: Heather Skriba

Episode Date: August 13, 2020

Heather Skriba has experienced #genderdysphoria most of her life and transitioned from female to male a few years ago. But after encountering Jesus, she heard God telling her that she was "daddy's girl" and that God desired her to live as the female He created her to be. Filled with compassion, truth, and authenticity, Heather Skriba helps us understand her transgender experience, gender dysphoria, and what role the church can play in helping people who are wrestling with their gender identity and sexuality. Watch the podcast on YouTube Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today, my friend Heather Skryba. A few months ago, Heather was out here in Boise, Idaho, and we were taking part in a filming project, which I'm sure you'll hear about in due time. And in between filming sessions, I said, Heather, hey, let's go have a conversation for my podcast. And so we went downstairs and we had a conversation. Now, the audio on this is going to be a little rougher because, well, it's hard to explain, but the setup was different. I had just my iPhone and some sort of external microphone connected to my iPhone. And so the, you know, the quality is better than just simply having an iPhone

microphone, but it's not as good as what you're hearing right now in my nice, polished, sure microphone, my audio set up here in my basement. So the audio is going to be a little rougher. Also, this conversation that I had with Heather is also on my YouTube channel. So I know most of you don't do my YouTube, don't pay attention to my YouTube channel. Most people are either kind of podcast only or YouTube only. And so that's why I'm trying to release these conversations, both on my YouTube channel and in the podcast. So if you want to get a visual of our conversations, you can go to,

go to my YouTube channel, just press and spring, punch and press and sprinkle on YouTube and you'll get right to it. And the title of this is transgender and the gospel. If you want to support the show, you can do so through my Patreon account, patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. The info is in the show notes. Also, I, if you want to support me through Venmo, you can do that as well. People have been asking me how they can support me. People have been asking me about, um, if, you know, if I have a Venmo account,

it's super easy to, uh, kick over some cash and thankfulness for the ministry that I'm doing here. So if that's you and you'd like to support me, you can go to my Venmo account. The info is in the show notes. All right, let's get to know Heather Skreba. You guys are going to love this conversation. She's super raw, super authentic and super gospel centered. All right, welcome to the show, Heather Skriva. Hello, welcome to my YouTube channel.

Again, I'm here with my friend Heather Skriva. Heather, thanks so much for being live. Well, not live, but it's recorded on... My YouTube channel is just called Crescent Sprinkle, but Theology in a Raw is a podcast that I run as well. So thanks so much for being on the show. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We actually never met.

We've got several mutual friends, and we've corresponded on email a little bit and then you came out to be part of this building project and i would just love for you to tell your story and then we can um yeah i'm sure that's going to spark a bunch of questions and we can kind of follow up from there so tell us who heather skriba is yeah so my story um i grew up in like a christian home but my mom was methodist my dad was catholic um and so even just between those two like faith denominations like i got a lot of conflicting messages about like who god is like what does faith mean what even just like salvation like there's two fundamentally different views on salvation between methodists and catholics and so i was just really confused about like what it meant to be a Christian.

And my parents got divorced when I was in second grade. And that led to a lot of like family dynamics being really rough. Like my mom was emotionally unavailable and my dad was physically and emotionally and verbally abusive. was physically and emotionally and verbally abusive and so um it led me to like project all of that negative the negative relationships with my parents onto god too so like my mom is absent therefore god is absent my dad's like abusive and abrasive and therefore god is too and so both parents not just the father representing dad, but both mother and father shape your view of God. Yeah. Well, if you think about it, like God, the father, but then there's the comfort of the Holy Spirit and that's the more mothering nurturing role. And so I missed out on both of those as a kid. And so my view of God was just really, really distorted.

But it led me to like not want anything to do with God as a kid. Like I would go to youth group just to keep my parents happy. Um, I would go to church on Sundays to avoid arguments later. Um, but it was never something that I wanted anything to do with. Um, and that continued all throughout like middle school and high school. Like I went through the motions, but I was really turned off to God. Like I didn't want anything to do with him. And I quite frankly just wanted to go to college and start over. Like I wanted to be myself and just like abandon all of this like negative baggage. Um, because like my dad's view of like women and femininity was really narrow and I just could not meet his expectations of what that was supposed to be like. Like he thought women needed to, um, like have long hair,

like to wear dresses, wear makeup. And I like wore camouflage and like played with my brother's GI Joes. And so we just had like two fundamentally different perspectives and experiences. And when we would have like tension about it, he would like look at me and say like, I always wished that I had a daddy's girl as a daughter. And what that communicated to my like eight year old and say like i always wish that i had a daddy's girl as a daughter and what that communicated to my like eight-year-old heart was like i'm not the daughter that my dad wants like

being around my femininity or my version of feminine femininity brings my dad pain like it's it's defective it's not good enough um and i internalized that like as my identity as my value so like that caused me to develop a lot of social anxiety a lot of insecurity a ton of self-hatred um and so by the time that I got like turned 18 and was ready to go to school I was ready to be out like I just needed a clean start um so when I got to college um i went to university of michigan in ann arbor and i was ready to like just really like turn away from any like traditional or conservative like idea from my background and instead like i wanted to take a women's studies course and expose myself to other like just other worldviews because like i grew up in small town northern Michigan, like, where everybody knows everybody.

So, like, just what's out there is really limited. So, but on my first day of classes, like, Jesus interrupted my story, as he often does. And there was a group of people from a campus ministry handing out surveys. And they were basically saying, like, hey, fill out a survey and you get a free discount card. And as a now poor college student, I thought, why not? So like the questions on the survey were really simple. It was like, do you want a personal relationship with God? Are you interested in a Bible study? And maybe one more. Um, and I think I checked like maybe, or like

sort of interested, but very noncommittal answers. But that was enough for them to start reaching out to me. And after like six weeks of making excuses for why I couldn't go to like their Bible study and like campus gatherings, I finally like I just didn't have any more excuses. So I thought, OK, I'll go once and then that'll get them off my back. Like they'll stop calling me every week. okay, I'll go once and then that'll get them off my back. Like they'll stop calling me every week. Um, but at the, uh, like all campus gathering that I went to, the message was called the music of the gospel. And the premise of it was if we're dancing without music, it's exhausting. Like there's no joy in it. It's like void of all the void of all like things that are life giving.

in it. It's like void of all, devoid of all like things that are life-giving. But if you hear the music of the gospel, like things that we normally call religious actually become life-giving and enjoyable. And it's something that you want to invite other people into. Um, and it, it's something that like, like builds your faith and builds your joy and increases your quality of life instead of like something that is just a meaningless act. And I realized that these people had an experience of God that I'd never had before. And whatever the different thing was that they had, I wanted that version of God, not the version that I knew growing up. So that propelled me to give my life to Jesus and realize that like, there is kindness there.

There is kindness in the heart of God. And like, I want to, I want to experience that like personal, like relationship with God that makes me want to dance to music of the gospel. Um, and after I like became a Christian and started pursuing God and pursuing faith, like I started asking a lot of those apologetic questions that you ask, like, why do good things happen to bad people? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Um, questions about like science and faith and how can those things coexist? Like our dinosaurs real, how old is the earth? Just those big fun ones. Yeah. You know, and like the woman who was discipling me,

like just was so patient it was really sweet of her she like brought out josh mcdowell's like evidence that demands a verdict and we went through it together um but then i was also asking these heart level questions of like why does god let suffering happen to people like why did my like upbringing why did he let that be so hard like why did I feel so much self-hatred and anxiety and insecurity? Like, these questions that are more personal and that I had used my pain to distance myself from God. But now that I was in a relationship and, like, following after him, like, we began peeling back those layers. And then one of the areas, like as I was processing through all these things,

one of the areas that I got really stuck was about like LGBT issues in the Bible. In my mind, I was thinking like, how could a loving God say that two people loving each other is bad? Like that just felt really arbitrary. Like if he's God, like he could have changed it. He could still change his mind. Maybe like, I just couldn't grasp like what was so bad about it or what was wrong about

it. Um, and through like being so stuck on it, like I was stuck on it for months, probably, or probably years even. Um, I realized like I had personal stake in this game.

Um, like I was asked, I was so stuck on this because it shed light on the fact that like, I am holding out on the fact that like, I really hope I can date a woman someday and being in a more like progressive setting. And like, like at,

at a university, like I started to like get vocabulary to talk about like, Oh, like I'm attracted to women. Like the church calls that same-sex attraction. This university just calls it being gay or being lesbian or whatever the terminology is. There's more flexibility there. And it gave me vocab to talk about it that the church hadn't equipped me with.

And having language is really empowering. And so I finally felt like, oh, there's a word for this. So therefore, like someone else had to have struggled with this before. And so as I began opening up to like my Christian community about it, like they were very much like, OK, with me wrestling with it, like on a head level. Like you can wrestle with big picture theology of like, what does God say about LGBT stuff in the Bible? big picture of theology of like what does god say about lgbt stuff in the bible but the second it becomes personal and you think about like can i heather date a woman they shut that down immediately and they're like we're not comfortable with this like god says no like we'll pray about it we'll pray for you but like there's no freedom to wrestle on a personal level you can wrestle

theologically but not on a personal level and would you say that lack of freedom was really unhelpful, not having that space? I mean, totally unhelpful. Like they're like the, wasn't like the name, like Jacob or Israel, something means to wrestle with God. And so it's like, that's like fundamentally built into like what it means to be in relationship with him. And they like, that was just being quenched. And so,

yeah, it was super unhelpful. Um, I, uh, okay. Um, like,

so because I wasn't able to address those questions in my like faith community, it's like, I'm going to ask those questions anyway. So I'll just go somewhere else. It's like, I'm not getting answers from, um, like from the people that I want to get answers from so I began talking to some just like friends that I've made in classes at work and just opening up like hey

like I kind of think I might be attracted to women and the response that I got was the complete opposite like they were excited they're yes, like we get to be part of your coming out story. Like we get to be part of this like new step in your life and you becoming authentically you. Um, and I was like, wow, like that is way more of the reaction that I was hoping for. Just even like the acceptance of like, this is not something like shameful. Right. Like I, I didn't want to be even regard like i would never ask someone to change their theology just to make me feel better but to engage me in dialogue about it is so freeing and to not even have that with my faith community like just like pile shame onto it

yeah you had almost two extreme communities here one's just completely affirming you know no wrestling at all just we can't wait till you come out the other one no freedom to to yeah genuinely wrestle what do you think a healthy maybe i don't want to say middle ground but kind of you know is there is there what would it look like for a christian community who maybe does believe in a traditional sexual ethic still provide healthy space for somebody to wrestle so that you're not just like completely turned

off of that community you're just going to go find some other place to wrestle I think like Christians often feel like theology needs to be weaponized to keep someone's behavior in place and like on the right track and so like if people hadn't led with theology i think it would have communicated something totally different like

because for me even like even if i'm like i knew what most of their perspectives were but um to if if they even just switched their response and said wow like i know that's a hard thing to like process as a christian like are you okay like that's asking if someone is okay isn't sacrificing any of your beliefs or values it's caring for someone like just think about the good the story of the good samaritan like They crossed over the road to check on the person who was wounded. You have to overcome those barriers and the discomfort and even the inconvenience of loving people. Overcome that to make people feel safe.

And it's uncomfortable. And it's awkward and it's messy. And quite frankly, most of the time I don't want to do that. Like, let me stay in my comfortable little box. But like that doesn't like when people's hearts are on the line, it's worth it. Yeah. So, okay. So you wrestled with your sexuality in college.

When did that turn into a wrestling with your gender identity? Yeah. Shortly after? It was my senior year of college. Um, when did that turn into a wrestling with your gender identity? Yeah. Shortly after. It was my senior year of college. So I, as I, I stayed like in the, well,

I came out to like Christian friends as like same sex attracted. Cause that's like a safe word to use. But I never, I thought that like just coming out as that would be enough, like letting people know, like this is my experience. And if you're going to judge me, like maybe you're not someone I want in my life anyway so I tried to ride that tension for a while

um but my summer before my senior year of college my mental health was declining a lot like I was really struggling with anxiety and depression um I had been on antidepressants for a little bit and they stopped working and I cycled through like three or four different ones and they still like I just kept responding poorly to all of them um and so I finally was like I can't do this anymore like I can't live this in this tension because it is taking a toll on my ability to like show up to life I was calling into work multiple times a week um Um, I was really struggling to even get out of bed and just the, the, any joy that I had in life was just quenched because this, this feeling of like, I just need to come out. And like, I, it felt like I was being smothered

by all, how much I was thinking about and perseverating on my sexuality and my gender and so the summer before my um senior year of college i came out as gay for about three months and like that eased up a little bit of the tension but it wasn't quite the right fit like something about it was like this is nice but like there's more to it than what I'm than like what I should be experiencing like this isn't quite right um and in a lot of just in like growing as a believer and processing through and just like maturing and processing through a lot of like issues from my childhood um I was working um going through a lot of my resentments and I realized like I was in my parents a lot I was in myself a lot but I also

resented God a lot and a lot of my resentments that came up were about sexuality but in taking that like moral inventory I realized oh like there's a lot here about my gender too like I'm really mad at God that he made me a woman and I don't know what to do with that and that but like realizing that made me have a little bit more like I feel a little bit more empowered of like okay at least I have a category for this now um but in those conversations about gender again like the church or my faith community was not a safe place for that. So as I opened up to like my other friends, uh, there's like, their response was, you don't have to live with this

inner tension that's causing you to feel so like anxious and depressed and, um, on the, like on the verge of suicidal, like you don't have, like you deserve better than that. And so I decided that my senior year of college, I was going to introduce myself by a new name. So I started going by Jamie. I started using male pronouns, and I really switched my wardrobe. Before that summer, I had this last dramatic shift towards trying to be feminine. I was trying to wear makeup and jewelry and dresses, and it was just'd that go not well it just felt like really awkward I was like I'm looking at myself and I just constantly am so uncomfortable in my body and like these clothes are just making it

worse um so the shift after I started like after I came out in my classes like I was thinking I can introduce myself here the The semester is four months long. If this doesn't go how I'm assuming it will go, like I'm probably never going to see the people in my class again. So like it felt like a good trial period for it. Not that I made the decision lightly, but just knowing that I had an out, I think made the weight of the decision a lot less. Yeah. Did people accept you in an environment as Jamie or did you feel any kind of awkward responses?

It depended on the class. I was taking a lot of, it was my senior year, so I was in a lot of upper level psych and sociology classes. So when I'm taking classes like the sociology like you, part of the protocol is introducing yourself and saying your preferred pronouns. So the classes that were more like progressive for lack of a better word, created a space where like, I could like, I could experiment with that or I could like come out. And even though like, I still like, I was really, I wasn't changing that much permanently at that point, but it still was

a space where that was respected. Okay. Yeah. And then how long after did you begin, uh, transitioning? Yeah. Um, it took me, well, the, when I started changing my name, like the relief that I felt, like it wasn't't instantaneous, but it was really quick. It took maybe a month for me to start feeling confident and comfortable and to notice I'm actually engaging people again. I'm laughing, I'm having fun, I'm being silly and playful. These parts of my personality are coming out that I thought were dead, honestly. You say that's just the name change. Yeah.

thought were like dead honestly you say that's just just the name change yeah so that's super helpful for someone who doesn't have the experience to understand because oftentimes people who don't wrestle with gender dysphoria who are perfectly fine with you know my my male name and being a male but like to understand somebody like in your in your case so much like anxiety and just depression and all this stuff leading up to it and then finding that relief from the name and then if a christian comes along or not just a christian but if somebody comes along and refuses to use that name it's almost like a another punch in the gut right it's all it's like you're taking away something that has brought me relief right right or wrong whatever you think about the name thing like that that's the

the feeling i imagine yeah like you're taking away something that's finally brought me some relief yeah and for me it was just this white noise in the background like when i was going by heather and female pronouns and trying to like look feminine like there was this constant white noise of this isn't right i'm not not doing this right. This feels wrong. Like, like how do I make myself feel okay about this? And it's just this narrative that plays in the background. And it was like, like, it's like someone turned off the power of the white noise, like muted it when I finally started switching like my name and pronouns, um, or even just

turn the volume down a little bit. Cause it wasn't gone. But then the second like that gets questioned or i have to like make a choice about what bathroom i was going to use like the white noise went back up with like am i going to be found out like are they gonna is someone going to tell me i'm in the wrong bathroom am i going to get called ma'am instead of sir and it's just this constant like internal tornado that does not stop i've heard from i think every single trans person i've talked to that don't like the whole turmoil that they go through yeah they have to go to the

bathroom in public just the which one do i go and what's going to happen just the anxiety of yeah having to use the bathroom in public is just constant yeah and there's argument that it's like for like even just the thought that it would be for like other people's safety is just constant yeah and there's the argument that it's like for like even just the thought that it would be for like other people's safety is just so baffling to me because it's like i'm more worried about this and i'm the one who's more at risk as like a like as a trans guy than anybody else in this bathroom yeah i'm like i just honestly just really just want to use the bathroom like it's it's not that deep but we're making it like it's been made into this thing like wars are waged in the bathrooms does it make you does it make you feel like a monster i mean it's like wait you think i'm gonna harm somebody or

something is that when they use that kind of rhetoric i mean is that i wouldn't say monster it more of like just made me feel really on edge like i like was on guard all the time like i had to make sure that like i would avoid eye contact with people because maybe that would make them pay more attention to me or just how can i fly under the radar as much as possible and just like go to the bathroom and then be done and like go on with my life but like no one should have to think about it that much what about so i would say the people at least the more thoughtful people I know when they, when they raise concerns about the bathroom thing, it's not even really, they're concerned

as much, at least the ones I would talk to about a trans person using the bathroom that matches their gender. It's more somebody else, some straight cisgender pervert taking advantage of that, you know? And I guess yeah yeah it just like grieves me that that is a segue for like talking about like perverts or pedophilia or anything like those are two totally different conversations like the like someone who is going to like do anything harmful or in a bathroom is going to do that regardless of whether or not like trans people are allowed to use the bathroom that they want like that motive already

exists and if someone is motivated enough to act on that like the gender or like the like the sign on a bathroom is not going to stop that that's good that's good okay so you socially transition and then you start after that how long after when you started taking hormones it was so i classes started september it was december that i finally got on hormones okay um it in that time i was like really hoping that god would like close doors if i wasn't supposed to be doing it but it took six weeks to make a doctor's appointment when in reality it should have taken months um and so i started hormones that december and i was on them for probably like two years total um but in the first few months like my voice started dropping like my

body fat redistributed so like my face got a little bit elongated and like um my like muscle mass shifted so it just like kind of became more and more like like appearing more and more like a cisgender guy to the point where i could pass which means to have people perceive me as the gender i want them to so like i was trying to look masculine or i was identifying as a transgender guy and people were perceiving me as such and so i was passing and that was reallyiving me as such. And so I was passing. And that was really when I felt like things were like, I was like, this is good. Like I, this is just alleviating so much of that distress. Like, and I can, like, I just saw so many of the initial like good changes continue to magnify as I began to look more and more masculine.

So then I pursued changing my name legally and I changed my gender marker legally. Like I did, I did all the things that you like typically do to fully socially transition. Okay. And that was that satisfying? I mean, did it scratch the itch that you felt like needed to be scratched? In the beginning? Yeah. Like it, it ended up, obviously ended up not sticking cause I'm here as Heather, but, like, in the beginning, yeah, I think, like, I was just, there was so much going on. Like, I had this community that loved me and championed me. Like, I found a place to belong. I found my identity. And there, like, I felt so much freedom from shame because, like, in the LGBT community community there's no shame for being transgender it's celebrated so like the big things that like i was looking for answers on like am i loved am i accepted is the way that i made good like those core questions were being answered

and so uh i in with the momentum that i had i was thinking like this has all been so awesome like the last thing that i need to do to, like, alleviate this dysphoria that I'm feeling is to have top surgery. To so often for, like, trans guys, like, that is the thing that, like, that is the thing that, like, helps you,

like, fix, not fix your dysphoria, that's not a good use of words, but, like, helps you alleviate your dysphoria more permanently. Like, because it's, like, the most permanent change on your body most trans guys that i talk to say that their chest is kind of the thing that we describe like a source of their dysphoria almost you know yeah because i was binding um up until then up until i had surgery but there was always like this awkwardness with it of like is the shirt that i'm wearing showing that i'm binding like are there telltale signs that i am transgender um and they're also just uncomfortable like

there's just a lot there's just so many factors that like binding versus like having top surgery like the difference in the amount of dysphoria it alleviates is significant so after you've had top surgery what was tell us about the months after that yeah again did it help was it you know did it scratch that if that you've been trying to scratch the leading up to it i started to get a little nervous but i just assumed that was because i was engaging in massive life change like i was gonna like any surgery right which produced right yeah so like i, my voice had dropped and I could like, there are women who have voices as low as mine. Like that's not totally out of the, out of the question, but surgery was permanent. Like every, like there's no going back and having

things be the same. And so I think just the gravity of it started to hit me. But after I like, after surgery, when I like saw my chest for the first time, I just remembered having this like sinking feeling of like, oh, this is not what I was hoping it would be like, this was supposed to be like soul level care and soul level satisfaction and this is just this is just on the surface like this is just trying to modify my body to deal with a soul level heartache and so from there like i saw my dysphoria shift to like non-gendered parts of my body so like my arms my legs my stomach and i realized that like i it wasn't just like a hatred of my gender and a discomfort in my gender that I was processing through it was a discomfort in who I was as a person like it wasn't

just like I don't like being a woman it was like I don't like being me I don't like who I am and I don't like being who I am around other people. And I don't like being stuck alone with myself. So one thing I've, as I've heard you share your story, one thing I really appreciate is you constantly emphasize that this is your story. You don't want to make your story prescriptive or even descriptive of all the other stories. I really appreciate that. of all the other stories. I really appreciate that. So in your story,

just kind of, I guess, reiterate or maybe draw out something you just said about you felt like you were, you needed soul care and you were addressing it with kind of physical or more surfacy things. Can you maybe elaborate

on what was the kind of soul care you were really needing through all this? As I, well, as I began, like after surgery, I saw my behavior beginning to spiral. So like I, um, like I just saw myself like obsessively exercising and obsessively watching what I was eating, like trying to like obtain this perfect body. And so like when I look back and I'm like, well, like what was my soul longing for? And I, I feel like just the rest of knowing that I was okay as I was, that there was delight in me for sheerly existing, not that, that didn't have to be attained through any sort of like perfectionism

or like trying to control things or, but like Heather, Heather, Heather is okay. Like Heather is good. Heather is wonderful. And no amount of trying to like destroy the identity of Heather and create a new one is going to shift the fact that like my soul, like I, like, even though I was living as Jamie, I can't erase the past as Heather. And there's still this part of me that just really needed to know that like this part of my past, this person that I really didn't like, like she was okay. And like, she like, there's just like this little girl, Heather, that like, when I look back and think about it, there's this little girl, Heather, who just like is looking for love and like looking to be cared for and looking to be

nurtured. And as an adult, like I was dealing with those feelings through transitioning, through obsessively exercising and drinking and all of these things. But at the end of the day, it was like this tired, lonely, really hurt little girl who just like needed love wow yeah uh so was it like two two years later you decided or no it wasn't just you decided god was really truly leading you to re-identify as heather can you tell us about that experience yeah so when i so it was actually pretty shortly after having top surgery

so i had top surgery february of 2017 and then it was that may that god started like interrupting things again so after surgery and just the like full body dysphoria not just gender dysphoria like that prompted me to start looking back to like what God had, just like what God was saying. So, because the answer that I had gotten from like my friends just from school or like my non-Christian friends, I guess, was that like transitioning would satisfy me and that that would alleviate, like, cause it really is the only like solution for people struggling with gender dysphoria. Like the church doesn't really have a comparable option. Um,

and I tried that and it didn't work. And so I was like, I guess I'll go back to church. So I, I, so I emailed some churches and, um, I was very direct with them.

I just said, I'm a trans guy. I want to be part of the children's ministry worship team and a life group. And like, if you're not okay with that, just please tell me now, because I don't want to get six months down the road and have you realize that I'm trans and get kicked out.

So there's this one church in Ann Arbor that was just awesome. Like they were really upfront with me about what they believed. They said like, most people in our church believe that if you're born a female, like you should identify as a woman, but like, we're all like, we're all just like in need of Jesus. And so welcome to our family. Like you, even if like we disagree, like you still have value, like you still have insight and gifts from the Holy spirit that like we want to learn from. So like, come like, let us learn from you.

And like, hopefully you can learn from us too. learn from. So like, come like, let us learn from you. And like, hopefully you can learn from us too. Um, and then at the same time I was looking, just like looking online, trying to find resources about like what it meant to be a man and woman. Um, and I found this ministry that, um, was describing like the core desires of a woman's heart. And one of them was to be delighted in. And that just hit my heart like so deeply because it was like oh my gosh like yes that is what I'm looking for and all of this like I just want to know that like I'm loved like it sounds so simple and yet like it's not like it is it's so simple and yet it's so messy and we live in a broken world and, um, and I realized that like, I identified so much with what they

define a poor desirable woman's heart to be like, maybe I need to start rethinking through like my gender. Um, and I, in that time, um, like I had plans, like I'd gotten a scholarship to law school and I had plans to go attend, um, that fall. And I was starting to learn how to like hear God's voice again. And I felt like he said to turn down the scholarship. I was like, that's crazy. God, like this is like a full ride to law school. Like that, I don't think you understand what you're doing, but I knew that I was hearing from God. And so I turned on the scholarship and the next day God asked me a few questions. Like he asked me, like, why are you settling for your brokenness? And I mean, even just specifically relating to

gender, I was like that. I just thought like I have been operating out of a place of woundedness, like my femininity viewing it as wounded. Like I just shoved it to the corner. Like, yeah, I don't have to look at it or deal with it, but like, it's also causing me to like, just to engage the world out of this place of feeling like there's part of me that's defective and this is all covering that up. And then he asked me like, don't you know that I offer wholeness? And I was just honest with him. I was like, God, no, I don't. So like, will you please prove it to me? And I think as Christians, like, it's really easy to feel shame when we say like, God, no, I don't actually believe will you please prove it to me and i think as christians like it's really easy to feel shame when we say like god no i don't actually believe that you say the things that you believe but the ability to be honest with him in that like for like just change the trajectory

of what my heart was willing to like receive god's not afraid of our doubts right like he like he's so confident in who he is that like our doubts, like I just, yeah, like he just, I feel like if he like wants to give us, and he has given us such a big picture, but like when he's not like angry at us when we doubt, it's like, oh, like, oh, Heather, like here you go again. Like, don't you know that I love you? Like I do. So I'm going to show you again. So good. So I'm going to show you again. So good.

Can you help us make sense of, like, in the last 10 years, there's been just such a massive increase, especially among teenage females. Either wrestling with their gender identity or, you know, identifying as male or maybe, you know, an alternative gender identity. I mean, it's interesting because it's largely females. Like, typically males would be slightly higher on the gender dysphoria scale but then the last 10 years there's been like a hockey stick rise in females have you thought of that or help us make sense of why that may be is there something in the culture with femininity that's confusing people or I don't know um I I would have to think about it more too but my initial like I think part of it is there's there's always been more flexibility with femininity in some ways like because of like toxic masculinity like men have to make a much more significant coming out story to like identify as trans or even as gay,

because like there's so much more, like it's has to be so much more intentional. Whereas like we, our culture has for a long time accepted that of course a woman wants to be more masculine. Like we all, we prize masculinity above femininity. And so like it

makes sense to us that like and it's more accepting to us that like women want to like take a step up whereas men coming out are taking a step down because of the imbalance the hierarchy with the gender oh wow yeah so so i think just i feel like there's been more flexibility there anyway my initial response is that there's just more access to vocabulary to name it as gender dysphoria or to name that pushback against stereotypes there's more

ability to not be in secret about it but I think our culture has always been one that's been set up of like of of course, women want to be like men. Or even the idea of like, if you're a tomboy, that's not that negative. Yeah. But to be a sissy boy or whatever,

whatever the male equivalent, that, that is, it's very negative, right? Yeah. So there is, like you said,

there is more flexibility within gender expression with, with females. A couple more questions. I can talk to you forever, but what would you say to maybe parents who have a child who are teenager, who's wrestling with their gender identity? Maybe they actually have like really severe dysphoria or maybe they're just, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, but just more just confused, like genuinely confused about who they are. What help would you give to parents who are trying to parent their child?

A lot of the parents that i've met with i think initially believe that it's something that they've done that's caused their child to experience dysphoria like did we raise them too strictly were we not strict enough like did we give bad images about masculinity and femininity and so first and foremost i just like hope that parents listening to this can just like ease off that, ease that pressure off themselves. Like there's so much that we don't know about what causes gender dysphoria. Like is it nurture versus nature? Is it biological?

Is it like having such strong stereotypes in the culture? It's probably a combination of all of the above and so like easing off that pressure and then choosing to ask good questions without trying to fix your child's gender dysphoria like when i was really starting to talk about it and feel it more like i was in my 20s at the time so it's different than having younger kids but i wish people didn't focus so much on the solution, but focus more on just understanding my experience. So like, what is it like? What is your gender dysphoria like? Like what things bring it on more?

What things help you kind of what things help like make you feel more relaxed, like help ease it? Like what does it like? Is it really loud or is it like a constant humdrum noise in the background? Just like trying to get a feel for what my experience was. Because you can't walk with people through things until you have an understanding of what it's like. That's so true. My gosh. Yeah.

And what about, um, I guess more broadly to the church, um, how would you like to see the church improve and how it engages specifically the gender transgender conversation? And also number two, what would it look like for a church to cultivate? I'll say healthy spaces for people to work through their gender identity. Yeah. I think for churches, like it has to start at the top. Like, so it's going to be different for every church, but like the leadership has to begin engaging this conversation as a team first and like understanding like, are like choosing the act, like it's an active choice to choose to defend like LGBT individuals in their church.

Like one thing that made me feel really safe in my church back in Ann Arbor was they were willing to lose like straight, like heterosexual congruence over my like letting me be part of the church. Because they knew like they're going to have no trouble finding a new church. But like you as an LGBT individual, you are going to have a nightmare time finding a church that's going to love you. individual, you are going to have a nightmare time finding a church that's going to love you. So they prioritized my spiritual wellbeing, knowing, not saying I'm more important, but knowing that like the resources for me are far fewer. And so they, they prioritize that, but that was a choice from like the, like that the leadership made of like, we're going to make this a priority. Um, and then that trickled into like just the heart posture of the congregation too. And even, I think too, like even just knowing

like, how are we talking about gender in the really subtle ways to like, are like men's and women's times or like youth group events, like are the men going and like eating wings and playing sports and like watching, I don't know, like action movies. And are the women like drinking tea and crafting? Like, of course I want to be like what, like playing sports, but somehow that misaligned with what the church was saying women need to be like. So it was very, it was very boxed in, in my experience, like women do this. And this is how women connect with God. Men do this. And this is how men connect with God. Men do this and this is how men connect with God. But God looks at us as individuals. Like no two women are the same.

So I like would love churches to begin like having this heart posture. Like, okay, what does Heather need to connect with God? Like what does Preston need to connect with God? Like as a man or as a woman, but like as like masculinity in like your version of masculinity or femininity in my version because that might be like being outside going in nature playing sports that could be crafted crafting's great but like to have those blanket statements over an entire gender is really suffocating it's almost like you implicitly moralize a certain stereotype yeah and even let's just say 70 let's just say 80 women would rather be crafting i%, let's just say 80% women would rather

be crafty, and I don't think that's true actually, but would rather be crafty than eating wings and playing dodgeball or something. What does that do to the other 20 or 30%? It's not just like, oh, they feel like they're not part of the majority. They actually begin to

question the very essence of who they are as a woman. I am not honoring God in my womanhood because I don't like these things that apparently define what it means to be a woman. Yeah. And like, even thinking about like, whether it is only 1%,

like God still goes after, leaves the 99 to go after the one. And like, I want the church to like leave the 99 who love like these more stereotypical masculine and feminine things for the one person, like one who like i want the church to like leave the 99 who love like these more stereotypical masculine and feminine things for the one person like one who like needs to know specifically that it's okay that you don't like these things your value is and your your feminine need does not reside in like your preferences in like the length of your hair but it resides in the fact that like god calls you a daughter and that's what

matters. All of the preferences and stuff like God has given those to you to make you unique and to make you special because like someone needs your unique giftings somewhere sometime like those are going to like be used for the kingdom. So good. Heather, thanks so much for being on my YouTube channel. Do you have any final words for our audience as they continue to think through this really important discussion? I mean, I just would love to encourage everyone, like, don't be afraid to ask questions, like to engage people in where they are.

Like the things that made me feel the most loved were people just asking, wanting to get to know my experience. Like, and that, like, you can never go wrong with that. That's so good. So good. Well, thanks so much for being on and we will see you next time on the show you