Theology in the Raw - 815: Same-Sex Attraction, Deconstruction, and the Problem of Evil: Tony Scarcello

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

Tony Scarcello is a friend, pastor, and the author of the forthcoming book: "Regenerate: Following Jesus After Deconstruction" (Oct 2020) Tony is also attracted to other guys and is married to a woman. How does that work? We talk a lot about this in our conversation. Their marriage is actually one of the most vibrant and healthiest marriages I've ever seen. Because marriage is so much more than a place to satisfy your sexual desires. We also talk about his journey in and out and back into Christianity, how he's had to restructure his view of God and the world around what the Bible actually says, and we discuss the perennial problem of evil. This is where we get super raw and real about our own struggles with the faith. Watch this episode of the podcast on YouTube Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you are a fan of the show, then please consider supporting it through Patreon. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month. More details are in the show notes. I have on the show today a name that many of you may not know. Tony Scarcello. Tony is a pastor and a friend, and he is the author of his first, well, he's an author, a first time author. He's got his book coming out in the very, very near future in October 2020. So just a month away. It is called Regenerate Following Jesus After Deconstruction. Now, I'm going to get totally honest with you. I get a lot of requests to endorse

books. And I typically prioritize requests that come from people that I have a relationship with. So naturally, when Tony said, Hey, would you consider endorsing my book? I said, Yeah, I'll consider it. I can't make any promises. I get, you know, a lot of requests. I already have a lot of commitments out there. I feel like I always have three or four books that I'm supposed to be endorsing. And so I ended up, you know, so I've got stacks of books that I'm trying to work through. And so he sent me his book and I put it on hold because I just had time to get to it for about a month. And finally, I saw the due date approaching for when my endorsement was due. So I said, all right, I got to crack open this book, check it out. I could not put this book down, you guys.

This is such a good book. Tony's story is pretty remarkable, as you'll hear. And he is a beautiful writer. I mean, I experienced the full range of human emotions in this book. I mean, I was on the verge of tears several times. I was laughing out loud several times and sometimes, you know, in back to back pages going through that kind of, you know, yo-yo of emotions. So thank you, Tony, for messing with my heart and my mind. Tony is same sex attracted.

He's attracted to guys married to a woman been married several years. And they, uh, I had Tony share actually had Tony and his wife share their story in front of about 300 people, um, a couple of years ago and their marriage, his story, their marriage, their friendship, their honesty, their faith. I just love this guy. I love him and everything he stands for. I love his journey. It is a hard journey. He's been through a lot of stuff, you guys. And he documents that in his book. Again, it's called Regenerate, Follow Jesus After Deconstruction. Please welcome to the show for the first time, my good friend, Tony Scarcello. All right. Hey, friends. I'm here with my good friend, Tony Scarcello. Tony,

thanks so much for being on my YouTube channel and my podcast. Thanks for having me. This is super exciting for me. So we've hung out a few times and I just I love hanging out with you. And one of the one of the interesting things about your story is this whole theme of deconstruction that plays a significant role in your faith journey now in most cases when a christian that was maybe raised conservative then they go through this deconstruction phase typically they end up in um for lack of better terms maybe a progressive brand of christianity um they, yeah, they typically react really strongly against anything that has a scent of conservatism, but you still are in a conservative environment and your story isn't quite so linear. So, um,

your book is called regenerate following Jesus after deconstruction. Um. You can pre-order it on the Whip and Stock website. It'll come out on Amazon in maybe a month or two. Anyway, tell us about your journey, man. Tell us about your journey of following Jesus after deconstruction. Totally. So I grew up in a very Pentecostal, very conservative church. For anybody who's familiar with Jimmy Swaggart, my parents were big Jimmy Swaggart fans for a while and watched a lot of his stuff. And I is something that's a big piece of my story is that I'm same sex attracted and kept that a secret for a long time.

And I worked at a pretty conservative Pentecostal church. time. And I worked at a pretty conservative Pentecostal church. And after I got married, I kind of came out to my wife and came out to the staff and ended up being asked not to work there anymore. And that started this process of a total faith unraveling. And I was one of those people that was like, I was a reformed dude. I was, it was a, there was a pretty famous reformed pastor in Seattle whose teachings that I, I listened to hours and hours of back in the day. And, um, like I was, I really was a disciple of this guy. And, um, so if you're, if you know what I'm talking about, like you're familiar with just kind of not just the certainty, but the aggression with which you approach, uh, your theology. And so is that dark Miscrel? Is that that guy?

Dark Miscrel, yeah. We don't want to name any names. Dark Miscrel, yeah. So when I lost my job at the church, it had kind of freed me up to ask a lot of these questions that I had really been kind of pushing down, like, why am I same-sex attracted if God is sovereign? A big piece of my story is my mom overdosed when I was 20, and why did God let that happen? And, you know, they talk about kind of this road of skepticism and doubt being a slippery slope, and they're right. Like, it was a slippery slope right on into a full-blown faith crisis. And they're right. Like it was a slippery slope right on into a full blown faith crisis. And so for me, the premise of the book is kind of why I deconstructed.

What was the stuff that contributed to that deconstruction? And then the other side of that, I what you hear when you talk, when you listen to a lot of people who talk about deconstruction is they talk like they have kind of reconstructed their house and that they have found a sturdier version of their faith. But for me, what I found after I reconstructed and was living in a lot of these more—I don't like the terms progressive and conservative, but more progressive circles was that it didn't really seem to reflect Jesus any more than my hyper-fundamentalist view of things. And I'm kind of under the assumption that people don't deconstruct because of Jesus. Like most people don't have any problem with Jesus or they flat out love Jesus. What they deconstruct is because what they were handed doesn't look enough like Jesus. And when I was kind of reconstructed, I was still pretty caustic and still a bully and still willing to chomp the head off my enemy.

And so, yeah, so the premise of the book is just they're actually I'm not contending for deconstruction. I'm not contending for progressivism. I'm contending for, look, the way of Jesus will save the world. Like, I believe that beyond a shadow of a doubt is the best news there is. doubt. It's the best news there is. And so let's pass down something that can actually regenerate people's faiths like Jesus and not lead people down this unnecessary road of spiritual violence like deconstruction. Wow. So I've often said, I think we've had this conversation. I would love your thoughts on it, that the sort of hyper-progressive, hyper- hyper fundamentalism spectrum it's almost like a it's it's more of a horseshoe so that the far to one extreme it's like you end up getting really close to the tone the posture the mindset of the other extreme um did you find having swung across that

spectrum is that what you're what i hear is that where i hear you saying that you kind of felt like this is just kind of the same posture that i had in fundamentalism just a different thing i'm fighting for now or yeah i mean one of the big tells for me was um my wife's mom and dad and my dad are very conservative um well very conservative might not be very not be fair my dad's very conservative but my wife's family is pretty conservative. And when I was reconstructed and thought I had kind of put my faith house back together but was just all in on the progressive camp, they are objectively some of the best people I know. But I would leave every family night, every holiday, every birthday, frustrated, complaining, gossiping, angry. And it dawned on me one point after I married my wife, it was just my dad, brother and I. And when my mom died, like we didn't really have holidays or birthdays or anything like that. And my wife's family took in not um, not just me, but my

dad and my brother to spend Christmases and Thanksgivings with them and just made the whole thing family. And I was sitting there one Christmas and I was like, my gosh, these people like demonstrate love and generosity better than anyone I've ever known. And here I am complaining because they voted for Trump and thinking that they're lesser people because of it and and it was just a real that was like a big turning point for me because I was just like they're better people than me like maybe we differently but like they they demonstrate the love of Jesus better than me posting angry statuses on Facebook yeah that that was like a repentance moment and that was kind of one of those things where I can scrutinize ideas and

stuff that I find, for millennials' favorite term, problematic. I can scrutinize those type of things, but I don't ever want to scrutinize or reject my family, especially when they're doing such a good job at demonstrating love. Yeah. It does become very self-righteous too, doesn't it? It's like... Absolutely. And I guess kind of the same theme of reverse fundamentalism. It's like you notice everything wrong with everybody else and don't see all the good things they're doing, and then you notice all the good things you're doing and don't notice all the areas where you're messed up.

I see that in today's culture and just a broader culture, secular culture or whatever, or even church culture. I mean, just a lot of all the virtue signaling and lack of forgiveness. Like somebody digs up some stupid thing you said when you're 17 on Twitter and it's like, you're done. It's like that. That's like Westboro Baptist stuff. You know, there's no forgive, no, no room for forgiveness, repentance. You're just gone because you sinned 17 years ago.

I mean, that's, that's crazy, man. I was thinking about it and I, I dig a little bit into this in the book, but when you look at Jesus, like Jesus had harsh things to say, but he never seemed reactionary. Like everything Jesus did seemed intentional and rooted. And so when your ideology causes you to be hyperreactionary or defensive, you're not rooted. You're insecure. And so if you're insecure about your perspective and your belief that you can't even listen to an opposing view um i just don't think i don't see that in jesus at all and so that's that's kind of was another big thing was like i can't even listen to to my dad

defend why he would want to vote for donald trump without getting angry and wanting to post a monologue on facebook about it that's that's a problem so it is man that's good that's convicting because i yeah that's man yeah i mean it's gosh um uh where would you i said like five different thoughts that just collided in my head at the moment sorry welcome to my brain um where would you would you consider yourself on the spectrum and i don't even know if we can even think of a spectrum let's just start theologically and then maybe even politically like where would you you know conservative moderate independent left of center right of center progressive like that how would you label yourself if you if you

had to i think theologically i I think I'm pretty conservative. I know a lot of people in my church who would probably disagree with that. I frequently find myself not being progressive enough for my progressive friends or conservative enough for my conservative friends. But I am like having my beliefs and viewpoints being rooted in scripture. I'm a big, big fan of the creeds. Like that stuff is super, super important to me. And when I hear any, especially the creeds have been my biggest kind of guide for what my essentials are. And when I hear anything that the views away from that might, you know, you might be a great person, but I don't, if you can't affirm the creeds, which is the most basic expression of Christianity, then I don't even know that

it's fair to call yourself a Christian. And, and I don't make it my, I try to not to make it my business to decide who's a Christian, who's not, that's, that's God's deal. But as far as just discerning, if you can't affirm the creeds, then you're affirming something else. And in my perspective, um, some people who would say the creeds is not, not firm enough. Like you gotta, you gotta, it's gotta be a hundred percent biblical. And I don't think anybody lives a hundred percent biblical because depending on what you read, you can defend any stance. But I also have people who think that's too restricting to limit it, to have creeds be. Let's go there yeah because i i got some thoughts on that um i um i would in general i think i would be where you're at um my two qualifications would be the

even the construction of the creeds it did happen in a specific cultural historical context. And they were formed. I'm not a historian, so I hope I'm not speaking past what actually happened. But they were formed kind of in response to certain heresies of the day. And we have a new, every generation of Christians will have its own unique things that it needs to respond to so that if we were to construct a creed today it might look slightly different or there might be slightly different emphasis or points being made that'd be my one quality qualification another one would be the creeds do focus on orthodoxy right belief because so much of orthopraxy was not disputed.

So they didn't need to. I mean, I'm sure we'll get into this later, but they didn't need to have a position on kind of sexuality because even the heretics weren't arguing against the meaning of marriage. Right. But we might need that today because there's a lot more confusion today, I think, over what it meant to what it means to actually follow Jesus or like in the early church. I mean, well, we don't have we don't have a statement pre Constantine among a Christian leader that wasn't that wasn't nonviolent,, like nonviolence was almost like the assumed position of the early church

pre Constantine or, or caring for the poor, um, to be a Christian meant you care for the poor. Like that wasn't up for debate, you know? Uh, but today we might need a statement on, this is part of the Christian identity as, as we care for the poor marginalized. So, so I, like I, I, so I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think I would want to maybe bring in, I think in our day and age, there is a need to affirm the creeds, but also to have discussions about orthopraxy. What does it mean to actually follow Jesus? Do you

have any thoughts on that? I 100% agree with you. And I think kind of the way that I navigate those waters is in both the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed, they affirm Jesus as Lord. And so, you know, back in those days, as you're aware, like that's not just a spiritual sky daddy term for Jesus. That's a very political, like not Caesar is Lord. You tweeted this last night, calling Jesus Lord means Caesar is not Lord. And so if Jesus is Lord, and if you're going to proclaim your allegiance to Jesus and faith in the mission of Jesus, then I think it's given that you're going to have a pretty nonviolent ethic. You're going to have a concern for the marginalized. You're going to let Jesus define right and wrong when it comes to sexuality. That's what it means to fall under the lordship of Jesus. And so I think that the creeds do

actually provide an orthopraxis if you understand what lordship meant back then. But we don't really understand that right now. So I'm going to tip my hat to John MacArthur here. The early church believed in lordship salvation. Now, that's an old debate in a subset of Christianity from like 1982, lordship salvation, whatever. Anyway, but yeah, I think that, yeah, maybe so they had a better understanding of what and of the lordship of Jesus and also what baptism meant too. And of the Lordship of Jesus and also what baptism meant too. Like that had cultural currency that to be baptized in the faith was to leave behind your old life to take on this radical new ethic. Like that was just kind of what baptism meant. But today, people get baptized unless they're really taught what it means.

I mean, they don't have that kind of understanding. Going on the term, i like what you said you know you made a comment about conservative you know you feel your liberal friends think you're too conservative your conservative friends think you're too liberal i just i have a problem with those terms actually this is why i rarely have ever used them to describe myself because the term conservative it's always in reference to the person using the term like oh tony you're conservative that assumes that my position is right like the correct one and you're to the right of me but i'm the standard you know or tony you're too liberal and that's because i have the right position you're just you're you're you're deviating to the left the left of what well the left of what the user thinks to be true and it's it's just such a narcissistic intrinsically

narcissistic uh phrase that now i know there's some cultural currency with the conservative liberal but in in evangelicalism when it's kind of lobbed as an accuser somebody's slapping the label on you i just think who are you you know people think i'm too conservative because i you know believe in traditional marriage or whatever um other people think i'm a flaming liberal because i don't read other king james you know but all that all that is is the other person's reference point is the standard and that's just anyway a little hobby horse that i just wanted to air out and it's also the person's way of like getting permission to judge you. Like if I find out that you're liberal, then I have permission to dismiss everything you're about to say or

wholeheartedly endorse everything you're about to say. It's a way of bypassing nuance and complexity and just attaching yourself to a title. Right. Yeah, that's good. Hey, well, let's get into your story with your own journey with sexuality. So can we go deeper into your past? Teenager, when did you kind of realize you were same-sex attracted? How did you handle that? What did that journey look like for you? I was 12 years old when I first realized it. And I realized it when I had a dream that I was cuddling with one of my best friends. And it freaked me out. And, you know, I lived in a household where my family had our neighbors across the street were a lesbian couple. And they were really, to my parents' credit, they were really good friends with my mom and dad. Like they would go on double dates and all that stuff. And so my parents in the 90s were doing more than most Christians would feel safe doing now.

But they told my brother and I that they were just roommates, that they weren't a lesbian couple. And at one point I was just like, okay, well, there's the three-bedroom house, and they share a bedroom with a queen-size bed in it. I think they're lesbians. What it did with me is like it kind of I didn't realize this at the time, but it kind of taught me that this is something that's so bad and so shameful that we don't even want our kids know we're being associated with it. And and there's a good impulse there. Like there's a good impulse to have their kids raised with a biblical view of sexuality. And there's a good impulse there. Like there's a good impulse to have their kids raised with a biblical view of sexuality. And there's a good impulse to protect us. But what that did for me was when I realized that I had that same kind of internal struggle was it made me feel like a monster. And it taught that I can't talk to my parents because they can't even associate with they can't even let us know that there are their friends are lesbians. Like, how are they going to feel about their son?

And so I, uh, you know, I did everything I could at 12 years old to, to just block that friend out of my life with, I knew him from church. And so I wouldn't sit next to him at youth group and I would keep my distance as much as possible. But that summer, uh, we went to church camp together and we were in a cabin with three other boys, and I need to go back and ask my youth pastor why this was allowed, but we didn't have any leaders in our cabin. It was just five middle school boys in a cabin, and I think they didn't have enough volunteers coming on that camp or what, but it was, I'm thinking now, I'm a youth pastor now, I don't even know how that flied, but so we, we you know I don't know if you've ever been to camp but like it's

when you're a middle school boy it is like you're up until three o'clock in the morning every night and you're crying a lot at chapel in the evening and then you go home and or you go back to your cabin and you talk super late and by the third night there like my feelings had fully revisited for this friend and everybody else in the cabin was was knocked out and exhausted. And this friend and I talked and and and he kissed me. And it was one of those moments where I after he was done, he went back to his bat bunk and we went to sleep and I just sobbed all night and just quietly to myself and just kept thinking like like this is the end of your life this is the end of your life

and I make mention of this in my book but the fact that I knew that it went against God's like wishes for me to be same sex attracted before I knew that things like lust and violence and greed were bad, like is really telling about kind of this cultural backlash the church is experiencing and how we've prioritized things. You know, in an ideal world, the moment a kid starts experiencing this stuff, they should be able to go directly to their parents without fear that they're going to be a homeless youth or be rejected or be sent away to a camp or be exposed in front of the whole youth group. And so I went back home and, you know, my parents gave me big hugs, but I felt 10 miles away from them. And, um, and I, I kept it really, really

close to the chest. And when I got into high school, I had a few other experiences, um, had some parties and I'd get drunk and high. And, um, and actually like the, I call it the, I was raised in a Christian home, but the moment I got saved, I was, I was 16 years old and, um, I had already tried to commit suicide once by this point. Um, and, uh, it was about one o'clock in the morning and I got up and I went, snuck into my parents' room and I took Um, and, uh, it was about one o'clock in the morning and I got up and I went, snuck into my parents' room and I took my dad's, uh, revolver out of his gun, out of his dresser drawer and went and sat in my bedroom. And, um, and I was sitting there and I was, I was, I was, I had, I didn't like have the gun to my head or anything, but like I had, was building the internal resolution to just like do it. And I thought through like, well,

my parents would think that the shot would wake them up and they'd run into the room and what they were going to see. And where my head was at at the time was shame had so distorted my thinking that I really believed that my parents would rather that outcome than hear the truth about what I was experiencing. And at 1, at one 30 in the morning, I get a phone call from one of my youth leaders who was in a California visiting family. And I'm like, it's what I think something's wrong. And I answer the phone. I'm like, what's, what's going on, dude? And, um, and he says, I don't know how to describe it to you, but I was, I was playing video games with my best friend. And, um, and I just started thinking about you and I just started crying. And he said, so I stopped playing video games with my best friend and, um, and I just started thinking about you

and I just started crying. And he said, so I stopped playing video games and went outside. I started praying for you. And he said, and I don't know what's going on, Tony, but I just felt like God wanted me to call you and, and just tell you that, that he loves you and he sees you. Um, and he said, and I want you to get your Bible and I want you to ring, read Psalm five to me. And so you pick up my Bible and Psalm 5, it starts out with just David acknowledging that God considers every sigh and accounts them and he hears them and he sees them. And my friends are saying, you know, Tony, like God sees you and he hears you. And I don't know what you're experiencing, but like he loves you. And I didn't tell him,

then he knows now what was going on, but I didn't tell him at the time like what had happened. And I just, you know, thank you so much, man. And and so I hung up the phone and I got up to put to go get a glass of water out of the kitchen. And when I go out to the kitchen, my mom had this kind of glass cross on their windowsill and something about like the way the porch light was shining through the glass cross. It just really, really caught my attention. And, um, and I just, it was as if like God just downloaded into me. Um, he just said, you know, I, I died on that cross, like, so that nothing stands between us now. Um, not your struggles with your sexuality, nothing like, and, um, and I said, yeah, but this thing I've been praying for you to take away, you won't take it away. And, and he just reiterated like the only thing that stands between us is love. Just follow me. And I'm going to give you a life that's thrilling and fulfilling. I promise. And so that moment on, like, that was just, I was, I was

went from like party kids donor, like to just straight up Bible man, Jesus man, started a Bible study on my school. I had 150 kids come into it. Like it was just like, it was wild. And so that was like, Jesus saved me in that moment. What's so cool about it is I didn't talk to anybody about this piece of my story until I was 23. But like, I know for a lot of people, God is the least safe place to talk about this with. But when I was struggling and would start developing feelings for somebody or any of those things, like God was the only one I could talk to about it. And it was always safe and it was always, um, kind of gave me the strength to keep going until like I got to where I am.

And so that's, that's kind of how my story played out. Um, yeah. Golly, that'll make a Pentecostal out of you, your friend calling. I mean, I, I, it's sad because I, I've heard versions of your story among so many other people that experience an attraction to the same sex it's that that trajectory of realization then begins just tons and tons of shame and then usually middle of their teenage years there's for sure suicide ideation if not attempt or completion and that that's what in your own experience i know you walk with several people that have similar stories is that that internalized shame as an early teen is that which is pretty universal um yeah absolutely and was there was there things that the church was doing or that

people around you were doing maybe unintentionally that compounded that shame or was it just strictly between you and God or both and or I think the stuff that compounded it was um I had never met anyone or heard from anyone uh who was following Jesus that was same-sex attracted like ever didn't know anyone that's why I'm open about my story I mean I'm married to woman. I'm in love with my wife. I'm attracted to my wife. I could easily like just write this off as a weird season when I was in high school and not talk about it. But I think it's so important to talk about it because if I had known or seen somebody who was following Jesus faithfully and who experienced the same struggles as me, like it would have been a pathway to life, like absolutely. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think not being exposed to that, it was so the only time it came up was when it was being compared to pedophilia and when it was being compared to just monstrosity stuff.

And so I didn't hear about it as any complex like layered new ways so would you say i mean it um a a really important thing a church can do is to have actual people share their stories i mean just is that yes and i encourage people in the work of their testimony like that's yeah that alone just gives loads of people hope because there's so many people in our churches that are struggling privately the percentages are the statistics don't they don't lie i mean they can be bent and whatever but it's the you know the statistics don't lie because i get the emails you know i love when people say hey preston can you keep a secret i said if you knew all the secrets all the closeted pastors, I know that it wrestled with their sexuality that, you know, elders, wives, and people that people would

recognize, you know, it's, it's, it's so much more common than people realize. And I, and I think you've heard me say this, you know, it cracks me. Oh, it doesn't crack me up, but I don't want to be too cynical, but when pastors say, you know, oh yeah, Preston, thanks for the work you do, but you know, we don't have this problem. We we don't have this problem we don't have this issue at our church you know like uh it's not an issue uh and secondly you do you just have created a culture where you're kind of blind to it like um you did share your story can you you talk about this? I mean, you did share your story at church. How'd that go? There's kind of two sides to the same coin. So on one side, my sharing my story was an overwhelmingly positive experience. And especially, gosh, like I was I'm a youth pastor at my church. And so I was just so proud of my my high schoolers when, you know, they kind of responded to it and just lots of love and their families were great.

But there were there were a few families who I, you know, I went up there and I'm I am in the four square church. And we we my pastor, like, did a great job at prefacing, hey, like, this is, we have a traditional view of marriage here. Like, Tony's on our staff. He's with us. He's on our team. And, but he, we need to share his story because it's important. And even with all of those caveats and qualifications beforehand, there were still several families

who left, a few who wouldn't even talk to me, one who did. And it wasn't the most, they tried to be very cordial, but it was a pretty hurtful conversation. And so some people, and part of the reason why some of them left is they didn't want their kid, they wanted their kid to think that this was a thing that's unusual that doesn't happen to people. Um, and, and that it's a chosen kind of chosen life of sin. And I was very clear and I will be very clear that I don't know why I struggle with this. I, I don't know if there's some suppressed trauma that's like caused it or if I was born this way or what, but the why isn't as important as the fact that nothing I've ever done has worked and making it go away so i can't say with any integrity

that it's a it's a thing i chose um and that was kind of a straw that broke the camel's back for a few families was they they would have been fine with it if i had said yeah i made a partnership with the devil and and just haven't gone back on it yet or something like that like they're they're they're um i'll even say political social i don't want to say theological assumptions were so thick that your story was interrupting that was challenging that and they just couldn't i mean that right they couldn't let go of that um yeah yeah that's that's not uncommon in other issues. When fundamental beliefs are shaken, either you have to go through a deconstruction process, which can be scary, or you just callous it over, you shut it out because the foundations are being interrupted. so i i don't i from a psychological perspective i guess it's not i can understand why someone would hunger down like that but that's just how did how did you feel i mean you said before you know you

thought you when you're an early teen you kind of felt like a monster i mean did that bring up issues of shame and all that stuff from the past i mean thoughts that ran through my head that couple weeks after that was i will never be acceptable um like and even and it's so sad because because like i'm not exaggerating when i say there was overwhelming positivity to and some very very conservative people like just thanking me and telling me that they loved me and And, um, so like, I don't want to misrep, mischaracterize my church, but like there was, um, just, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but negative stuff, just because of how we're biologically designed, like it sticks to us, like Velcro positive stuff bounces off Teflon. Like it's just, cause when we were picking berries as cavemen and we saw a saber tooth tiger that needed to draw our attention more than the berries.

And so is that, is that good? Does this go into our kind of animalistic instincts? And, um, so, but gosh, just the fact that three out of a hundred were, um, not just upset at me, but leaving because of me. And, you know, then you think, gosh, I'm disappointing my, my lead pastor and my team and, um, all that stuff. And so, yeah, I just, I remember thinking a lot, like I'm never going to be acceptable. I'm not going to be good enough. Um, I, church is not going to be a safe place for me. Um, so yeah, it was hard. It sucked. I want to talk about your, um, your, your marriage is briefly, and I don't want to, um,

put your, yeah, I, I'm protective of people's personal lives and stuff. So if there's certain things you don't want to talk about, let me know. I just, um,

in, you know, a lot of people know the work that I do helping pastors engage this conversation. And, um, one of, honestly,

bro, I don't know if I've told you this, but I've told other people this, one of the highlights of my ministry, man, was watching you and your wife, um, one of the, honestly, bro, I don't know if I've told you this, but I've told other people this, one of the highlights of my ministry, man, was watching you and your wife, um, on stage, share your story, uh, over in, uh, in Salem. Right. Um, that was powerful, dude. That was powerful.

Like hearing you and your wife talk about both the struggles that your unique marriage has had, but then dude dude to hear your wife and no well both your wife and you i think both of you kind of teared up looking at each other saying i can't imagine my life without you that that yeah i get choked up even i'm not i'm not a choke-up kind of person but i was like man that that's just that's that's just like a transcendent kind of love, you know? Can you unpack? So yeah, you're same-sex attracted and you would say, well, let me ask you this. Well, yeah, I don't want to tell your story for you.

How does that go for you in your marriage? Talk to us about your marriage and how you've had to navigate that. Yeah, I call, my wife's name is Kelsey and I call her the girl of my dreams because I didn't think that it was gonna be an option for me to fall in love with a woman and to be genuinely attracted to a woman. And so my wife is, when we got married, she was just this like, kind of fragile, like very, very unassuming, very just like don't see me.

And I mean you're into the Enneagram lately. So like she's a typical Enneagram 9, just peacemaker to the max, just more than willing to be a doormat. But hold on. I'm sorry, Preston. My dog is being ridiculous. Is this okay to – No worries this okay no you can bring him the camera if you want i'll be right back she uh anyway so after but after hearing my story like my wife and i and i she didn't know this about

me before we got married and stuff like that's a really big blow to take and um and you know there was there was questions like well do you know anybody that you in our lives who we find attractive and i'm like well i mean not anybody that i'm like gunning for like like fantasizing about but yeah there's there's friends who i can see are attractive and um and so she had to get like she had to make a decision like she was either going to spend the rest of her life just really insecure and afraid that I had doubled my options for infidelity or she was going to have to get tough and and trust me. And and she just got super, super tough and super trusting. And we – in our first year of marriage, like we learned more lessons about each other than I think most couples learn in their first five years of marriage. And she is like so trusting. Like she – I don't even know how to describe it.

first kind of came out to her like I let her look through my phone all the time and I let her just like have full access to to my information so that she knew nothing was was being kept in private and and I know that like there's always going to be like a little voice in her head that's just like keeping the people closer eye on that guy um but like she she's just accepted me and loved me and embraced me and trusted me and um um, has been pivotal in me, like coming to terms with myself and, and learning to not like hate myself because of this piece. Like without her, there's no version of me being able to just talk about this openly without

being a shell of anxiety. Wow. Golly. What would you say? So, well, first of all, I was going to ask how long in your marriage before you came out? Was this in the first year?

Like four months, four or five months. Yeah. No foundation built before then. You've been married how long now? We've been married. We just we celebrated five years in December. OK, now some people are going to latch on to this, right? And say, oh, so sexual attractions do change. Reparative therapy does work. I mean, my listeners who are part of maybe an ex-gay movement would be like, see, you know, is that what's going on here? Or how would you describe your, I don't want to say change, your journey? I don't even say change your journey. I'm actually really cautious.

I think I told you this before we spoke in Salem and I told my pastor this before I talked to the church. I'm not down for my story being used as an example of reparative therapy working or God changing people's sexuality because that's not the case. Like, me struggling the way I struggle has presents a unique set of challenges for us, that my wife and I have had to work through. And I'm not, my sexuality isn't changed. I'm not healed. I'm not none of that stuff. Like, it's still, still something that, I mean, I don't like saying I struggle with, because it's not like I'm always checking out dudes or watching porn or anything like that, but it's still like a reality for me. And I also think that the consequences of giving LGBTQ people that hope that God is just going to take away their sexuality can be pretty sad and pretty traumatic. can be pretty sad and pretty traumatic.

And I know for me, like, it raised a lot of questions when I thought that God wanted to change me and he didn't change me about how I felt about the goodness of God. I've got several friends who have similar marriages, but, you know, mixed orientation marriage is how some people frame it. And I don't want to say this is you, but I would love to know if you resonate with it. You know, they said, for instance,'t want to say this is you, but I would love to know if you resonate with it. They, you know, they said, um, for instance, I mean, Nate, my, our friend, Nate Collins, who's shared a story several times publicly said, um, and the difference is he was open with his wife before they got married. He's attracted to guys.

She's, um, also attracted to the guys. Um, uh, and so he was open with it, whatever. And in a sense, they went into marriage thinking like, I'm marrying my best friend, not sexually attracted to her, but I am very much emotionally drawn to her or whatever, but not to any other women. I could sit in a room full of naked women. It's not gonna do anything for me, you know?

So he wouldn't say he's like bisexual, but over time he says, yeah, I mean, unexpectedly romantic, even sexual feelings have cultivated just for his wife, not for any other females. So I'm like, must be nice. But would you because you said you are attracted to your wife. Is that the way I described kind of Nate's story? Is that does that resonate with kind of nate's story is that does that resonate with kind of your journey or would yours be how would you how was yours i had different there was like two or three other girls growing up that i was really genuinely attracted to and

had crushes on okay um so i mean are you familiar with the kinsey like swimmer like zero being totally straight, six being like only into dudes. I probably like him a four on the, on the spectrum is kind of how I, it's been the best metaphor for me to kind of gauge myself. So when, when people do ask me, I mean, the term I use is the same sex attracted and, and that's less because I have hang-ups with the term bisexual and more because other people have hang-ups and it's just easier to listen to me and accept me for more conservative people if i don't use some of the more loaded language but i am bisexual like that is okay that's um yeah i i i like i mean i know kate kinsey's it's been critiqued on Several for several reasons But the general gist of seeing

Sexuality in terms of a spectrum I think is not just helpful I think it's just true and scientific That and I think this is Where I do get a little nervous With some identity terms Gay straight Bisexual is it seems to

Seems to kind of think of sexuality in terms of three kind of distinct categories rather than a spectrum that kind of bleeds into each other. You know, I mean, you probably, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Lisa Diamond, who's done a lot of work on sexuality with females females and you know um you know the title of her book i'm looking for right now is you know sexual fluidity understanding a woman's love and desire she and she's a lesbian she's atheist lesbian whatever but she was blown away at seeing how just fluid the sexuality among women is it's been her kind of life work and and then she you know she later said actually i think it's a little more fluid with men as well and she's in she's very adamant i'm not talking

about sex change all this stuff those stupid christians talk about you know like it's not sexual orientation change efforts um that's not at all and i hate it when my work is used in that direction and i'm just saying uh the general categories of our orientation might be helpful, but to think that there's three distinct categories of humans, gay, straight, bisexual, it just doesn't match the scientific data. Our sexuality is unpredictable. It is affected by the environment. It's also affected by our biology and upbringing. Like it's just a big blurry mess, really not mess, but I mean, it's, it's complex. Everybody's sexuality is, is complex. But anyway, let's go back to your D your theological deconstruction. Do you have any certain theological themes where you kind of went through a deconstruction, reconstruction process? And what are those themes and what did that look like for you? Yeah, so I think for me, what God looks like is like was the biggest one. I spent a lot of time kind of having a very firm belief that Jesus loved me, but his dad didn't like me very much.

And and so I'm really glad that Jesus, his dad killed him so that I can be accepted by his dad. Like that was that was the viewpoint at the time. And, you know, for me nowadays, one of my I think my biggest conviction is that like Jesus is what God looks like. one of my, I think my biggest conviction is that like, Jesus is what God looks like. Like, if you have a theology of God that doesn't look like Jesus, um, I, I, my, my hair, my ears perk up and I'm very curious as to like, um, the consistency of that theology. I love the way Brian Zahn talks about it doing violence. You've been reading a lot of Zahn apparently. Yeah. I mean, but not just Zahn, zon but i mean you even you talk about this and fight a little bit like jesus i mean the hebrews one he's the exact representation of his of his

being and um so for me like if jesus is god and like jesus is king and lord and all of that stuff then um that's the best news in the world like that's that's not just good news that's the best news in the world. Like that's, that's not just good news. That's the best news. And so I think that's, that's, that's a big deal is because a lot of us on this cliche to say at this point, but a lot of us start our theology in Genesis three, not Genesis one, where we're separated from God rather than initially being created very good and blessed in God's image. And Jesus is like the calling back to that Genesis one state of being. And so, um, that is, that's probably the biggest one is, is I, I have

kind of done away with a lot of distinctions between like God, the father and Jesus. I understand they function differently in the Trinity and in scripture, but like, I think when God sent Jesus, like he was letting the world know this is what i look like my favorite part might well yeah hebrews one and also john one where you have i think it's verse 16 or 17 where it says jesus is and i don't even know the english translation but the greek uses the word the word you get the word exit jesus from like when we exegete scripture, right, we go and we draw out the meaning. And it says Jesus does that to our concept of theos, of God. He is the exegesis of what it means to be divine. Yeah. It's powerful, man.

And I'm not a Trinitarian theologian. Sorry, I believe in a Trinity almost. You know, there's people that really are specialists in trinitarian thoughts so i i you know um i don't know how to work all that out but yeah to see jesus as the exegesis of the father and not distinct person but same god that one in essence three distinct persons that mystery you know is hard to get your mind around, but, um, yeah, that's good, man. What else? Any other, uh, themes that, uh, was there anything that caused you to question your faith or where you went down a road where you're like, dude, I don't know if I can be a Christian anymore. Like I'm just rethinking some serious things. Yeah. Let me, there's, there's three key things

and I'll, I'll break them down like kind of one at a time. Um, the, the, the first, I would say the biggest one was after I had, uh, stopped working at the church, I started working at a, a halfway house for kids transitioning out of juvenile detention center. Um, and these kids were criminals and predators and like going to have a history for the rest of their lives. And so I and, you know, broken people break people. And so these kids weren't this way for no reason. And there was this one kid who who really, really tugged at my heart. And I'm not

going to say his real name, but in the book, I call him Jack. And Jack was just like super committed to his process, super committed to doing well in life. Had, had, I mean, Preston had experienced horrors that before I started working there, I didn't even know another person could do this to a kid. Like it was, it was stuff that was just like paradigm shifting the level of evil that this kid had to endure. And, um, this kid was an atheist. And, um, I mean at that time, just very understandably, because how do you believe in a God of love and justice and peace when and he prayed for God to protect him all the time when he was being abused and raped and tortured and and at, this kid had received some bad news. And so he locked himself in the bathroom and he broke the bathroom, the mirror in the bathroom and he slid his wrists. And, you know, I remember I grabbed the pliers because when we heard the crash and broke open the bathroom door and kind of held him and wrapped some paper towels around his wrists and had his blood all over me and went with him to the emergency room.

And my supervisor and I, because the kid doesn't have any parents. So and went with him to the emergency room and my supervisor and I, because the kid doesn't have any parents. So we sat with him in the emergency room and they had bandaged him up and sewed his arms back up and put bandages around him and he was sleeping. And I'm sitting in there and I've got his blood on me and I'm trying really, really hard to pray for him. I'm trying just like, God, just heal his mind, heal his body, like just help him, see him that you're there. And the more I prayed, like the more disingenuous I felt. And I realized like, I don't believe in this stuff anymore at that time. And one of the big reasons for that was because this kid was an atheist, if he had succeeded in killing himself,

my belief at that time meant he had to go to hell to be tortured forever. And at that point, in my understanding of God at that time, that was unacceptable, that God would neglect to protect him, give him every reason in the world to be an atheist, and then allow him to kill himself and then go to hell forever. Like that, I just couldn't find a way to define that as good. So that's the first like big thing. But then that leads into other stuff, like how I read the Bible was something that really tripped me up in my understanding of violence at the time and believing that it was pleasing to God, the violence that was taking place, not just in scripture, but in our world today. And, um, I remember one night, like I, I was,

I was going through my devotions and I had the habit of just Genesis through revelation over and over and over again. And I was in first Samuel, I think it's chapter nine when it might be a later chapter, but when Saul doesn't kill all of the Amalekites like God had asked him to do and his check Samuel 15 and And I and there's a lot of nuance to that story and stuff and I but my reading at the time

Needed a lot of work and so what I read was like, okay this God is so obsessed with violence and kind of vengeance and anger and that he's going to reject his first chosen king because the king didn't carry out the violence to the extent that was pleasing to God. And like that's actually how you and I even met, because I sent you that that question, just like what the heck is going on here? just like what the heck is going on here but like that was um yeah so those those are the few things that my reading of scripture my understanding of violence my belief in like how god works in the world um were things that needed that kind of caused my deconstruction that led me to a little bout of atheism for a couple months see that that thanks for sharing that i i i struggle with that i would say more and more i haven't talked about this too much on my podcast but i i um when you think about just the whole problem of evil just that that horrendous suffering um like the story you shared

like i i i don't know what to do with that and i i know the theologically right answers at least some of them some of them i don't think they're theologically right you know um but um i think i don't know i wonder if greg boyd is probably closer to the truth and how he, works through the intersection between divine providence, human agency and sin and so on. Um, still thinking through all that, but I just struggle. I, you know, I struggle with is the, the passages in scripture over and over and over that seem to say, God is promising. I will protect protect you i will not let you be harmed and i know some of those might be personal momentary things to an individual but you have

some throughout the psalms that just seem to be more absolute and more global or okay matthew 5 or 6 um don't worry about tomorrow look will not god will provide for your needs he takes care of the lilies in the field i'm like well what about the millions of people that have starved to death right did that how do you explain that and they said okay well they weren't christians okay what some of them were one of them was yeah um how how do you reconcile that you know and i just i i struggle i and i struggle with christians that kind of flippantly quote those passages without even wrestling with it kind of like you know oh you know i was um gonna get in the i you know god sent his angels to protect me you know from a car accident and i got away safe i'm like that's great praise god for that where was he with the person behind you

that did get in a wreck and died what about the kid that you know god saved my kid from cancer you know the cancer went away at two years old that's awesome and i praise that what about the many others that he didn't why didn't he you know and these are classic problems so i'm not i'm not saying anything that people haven't thought through i guess i used to be more comforted by kind of the cliched christian answers and now i just i'm not as comfortable with them anymore and i don't know what to do with that i it um and i do think and this might i'll probably lose a few followers here but i i do think that christian um universalism is in my mind probably the only real theological response that actually satisfies my soul. I just can't get there because of scripture. And I'm actually fine. I think God's fine with me

sitting here in my confusion, maybe even frustration. And yet to conclude say God but I do trust you I don't understand you not always happy with this situation but I'm committed to following your word even if it doesn't make sense even if I think a better reading of scripture makes more sense I just can't get there

so Tony am I a heretic? you're a pastor can you pastor me through this? you're my I'm not. I do want to say, because I think part of the problem with using those verses that are kind of bumper sticker verses is it's a great way of bypassing having to sit in the messiness of the moment. And I did that a lot. And then when I started working at the halfway house, it was no longer an option to bypass it. I was confronted with it every day.

And watching, I mean, innocent kids, like, only making the horrendous choices they made because it was done to them first. And it messed up their hardwiring and their brain. And now all they know is, like, sexual expression is dominance dominance and they can't get aroused unless it's that context. And like it messes people up really, really bad. And they didn't ask for that. And so, but here's, here's, here's, this is kind of how the story ends because this kid is actually, uh, really kind of fundamental to my journey because, um, a couple months couple months later, he's back at our halfway house. He's all healed up. He's doing great. And just killing it, like getting good grades and homeschool and being a leader in the group talks I was leading at the time and just doing amazing. And so one day we took the took the kids out to, uh, in Eugene, we have a place

called Skinner's Butte where you can just see all the lights in the city and it's beautiful. And we would take the kids there at nighttime so they can get out of the house and stretch their legs. And he and I were walking and talking and, um, and I was saying to him, I was like, man, you've just, you've made such a turnaround and I'm so proud of you. And I asked him, I said, what, what changed in you? And at this point I didn't believe in God at all. Like I was, I had resolved, but I was done like, um, and he says to me, he says, it's like something from outside of myself is telling me that my life matters. And he says, and I can't, can't describe it. And he said, but I just feel, he said, I never believed in God before, but I feel like God is making something really cool out of my life.

And he talked to me about how he was learning about mosaics and how mosaics are broken pieces brought together to make something beautiful and how he thinks God is making art out of his life. And I was just like, whoa. It was like one of those moments. And he was like, you know, you used to be a pastor. Do you think that's God? And I was like, you know, you used to be a pastor. Do you think that's God? And I was like, could be, like maybe. And I went home that night and I sat in my car and my head's just spinning. And I'm thinking about that night that like my friend called me when I was wanting to

kill myself. And I was like, there's a lot of evidence where I could buy into this narrative to make sense of my world that says there is no God. Like I can do that. And I'm actually functioning quite well as a nonbeliever. Like I'm not doing meth. I'm not cheating on my wife. I'm not clubbing baby seals. Like I am – I'm still me as a nonbeliever.

But like then there's this whole other thing of like, what if it is Jesus that is healing this kid and speaking to him? And like, what if it is God that is like, for all of the scary and pain and evil in the world, there's just as much inexplicable beauty and goodness. And, and how do you explain that? And, um, and so for me, it's like, I get to just decide that I'm gonna, I'm buying into this narrative, even if there's days where I don't believe it. And there are still days where I'm like, I'm not sure I believe all of this stuff, but I'm gonna I'm buying into this narrative even if there's days where I don't believe it and there are still days where I'm like I'm not sure I believe all of this stuff

but I'm choosing faith and I'm I'm choosing this story to make sense of my world and um so that that and so and even really cool Preston is just a couple nights before um we're recording this interview is uh that kid reached out to me on facebook and i hadn't talked to him in years and he's just he's just like hey like i graduated high school i'm doing amazing like i'm working full-time i'm living on my own uh and it's all because of you and the people at looking glass thanks so much and sent me this video that oregon youth authority recorded for his graduation ceremony and all this stuff like it's just so god is good still like it's just not as formulaic as i want it to be and as predictable as i want it to be that's that's a good word man that's so good yeah you know yeah and i yeah whenever i come into those moments of doubt um

which is frequent you know several times out a day sometimes i'm like am i sure this thing's real like what you know or you know god you're if you're real why don't you just manifest yourself to everybody boom here i am follow me yeah and so you know maybe some pentecostal friends would say i happens every day to me you know i just i don't i don't have those kind of audibles you know um so yeah but when i struggle i do come down to, okay, what are my options? Nihilism, another religion, you know, and I kind of go down the list of like, at the end of the day, I'm going to choose faith, not because it makes perfect sense,

not because I understand everything. But every system has its holes its kinks its mysteries the things we don't understand the things that can produce even outrage in us um and i think that's okay i think there's a reason why god included the psalms lamentation lamentations um ecclesiastes job in the the Bible You know, these books that Maybe not Job so much, but like Lamentations What I love about Lamentations It's a very poetic book

It's a very Artistically arranged book Very purposeful book But unlike Most Psalms Which end with a positive Resolution Where are you God, where are you god where are you

done this you've done that and the last verse is but you are faithful in your loving kindness you know um except for psalm 88 psalm 88 that has no resolution um and neither does lamentation well lamentations the middle of the book right um where we get the song how great is thy faithfulness um chapter three so the center of lamentations is that hope but the book ends without being resolved yeah the very last verse and i forget when i remember when i looked at it in the hebrew it's it's pretty it's dark man and some english translations whitewash it but um it's like god you are not here the end kind of thing and it's like that's um and but i'm so glad those books are in scripture because that speaks to the reality of the human experience but also the faith journey that there there are times you need to go to bed

not believe like you do you're it's not resolved that mystery that anger is just there you know um but those stories they like the one you shared man those are that's the other side of the story man you can't that mosaic that work of art that's that's unbelievable um tony i'm gonna let you go man so again the book is regenerate following jesus afterruction. Um, I think people will probably be watching this before it's available on Amazon. Um, but would, yeah, highly recommend people to write it down, keep a note of it. And, uh, thanks for writing this book, man. I'm looking forward to reading it. Uh, I feel like I've already kind of read it just by getting to know you, but, uh, excited to actually get it all laid out. Preston, thank you so much for just being a mentor to me and a

friend and appreciate you a lot, man. Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks, man. My pleasure. Take care. Thank you.