Theology in the Raw - 828: An Impossible Marriage: Laurie and Matt Krieg

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

Laurie is attracted to women. And Matt is also attracted to women. Both Laurie and Matt love Jesus. They’re in what’s called a “mixed orientation marriage” and they talk about how that “works” in this fascinating episode. Their marriage is incredible. Not perfect. No marriage is. But their marriage truly does exemplify the honesty, difficulty, beauty, and meaningfulness that every marriage is supposed to embody. Laurie and Matt have written an amazing book called “An Impossible Marriage” and this episode discusses a lot about what this book is all about. Check it out! Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today two very good friends of mine, Lori and Matt Krieg. They are the co-authors, dual authors, of a book that just came out called An Impossible Marriage, What Our Mixed Orientation Marriage Has Taught Us About Love and the Gospel. Lori is same-sex attracted, Matt is not, and they have a super interesting, compelling, complex and beautiful marriage that I have learned so much about just by watching them work through their unique situation. Matt is a counselor. Lori is a speaker, writer, leader in many ways. She also serves on the on the board of the Center for Face Sexuality and Gender. So in many ways. She also serves on the, on the board of the center for face sexuality and gender.

So she, in some ways, Lori's my boss, or at least has boss like authority over me in some ways. So I'm so excited about this episode. You're going to love it. You're going to enjoy it. If you are married or thinking about marriage,

whether you are gay, straight, same sex, attracted, bisexual, whatever, you will learn a ton from this episode. If you'd like to support the show, you will learn a ton from this episode. If you'd

like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, support the show for as little as five bucks a month and become part of the theology in the raw community. Okay, let's welcome to the show for the first time, Matt and Lori Creed. Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with two friends of mine, Lori and Matt Krieg. Lori and Matt, how are you guys doing today? Doing awesome. Glad to be here. Doing pretty good.

This might be the first time I've had two people on at one time. Maybe once or twice in the past. This is a kind of a, yeah, this is a rarity. So I want to talk about your forthcoming book called Impossible Marriage. When's it come out again? Is it November? It is November. book called impossible marriage when's it come out again is it november it is november i did reach out to my editors a couple days ago and i was like do you know it's november 3 and do you know that's election day it's supposed to come out on election day

uh yeah so i'm either gonna like play that up hard and be like hey after you vote which will be good grief uh so we're trying to work around that yeah hopefully a week before election day well and don't release it on the fourth because the world might end on the third oh yeah no no i'm looking only in the weeks before yeah or months after but hopefully before is too funny. So my book is supposed to be out in October, but we pushed it back to February just because it was like between now and then with so much happening, they're like, it's yeah, let's just push it back.

But Impossible Marriage. So why don't you give us either one of you, maybe you can go back and forth. What's the elevator pitch for this book? And I've read a chunk of it and i'm so excited for it so but i want to let you guys tell tell tell us about the book thanks an impossible marriage is really kind of blatantly stating what people have said to us for the last 11 plus years um either verbally overtly or silently with their heads cocked like a puppy

when we describe our marriage. But they'll say, OK, so you are attracted to the same sex, Lori. Matt, you wrestled with pornography addiction. How does your marriage work? That's impossible. does your marriage work? That's impossible. So instead of being like, oh, no, whatever, it's fine. We're leaning into it with this book saying all marriages are impossible. And that's kind of the point. If we look at the metaphor of marriage, and the purpose of marriage, which is to serve as a picture of Christ's impossible, insane love and marriage to the church. So yeah, it is impossible, but we're wrong if we're not also saying all of our marriages are impossible. Yeah. Well, yeah. A lot to unpack there. Why don't we go back and when did you guys first meet? let's just start there let's just go all the way back to the beginning and how you guys even fell into this well not this impossible

marriage because you would say all marriages have an impossibility about them um but your particular what even led to something like that yeah well we we met at school. We both went to Cornerstone. We met in class. We were doing a spiritual formation class together, and I approached her. At first. And then we started kind of, well, hanging out, we went to the same church. And so we played like ultimate Frisbee, large group of people gathering and slowly, the thing that came out about me was that I am not creepy. And so at one point, Lori was writing a... Yeah, I'll grab it. So I was writing for our school newspaper. And I was writing a column called Get Out and encouraging people to get out and get off campus. Kind of funny words now. Get out.

Anyway. Like the movie? It wasn't like the movie. The movie wasn't around yet. No. No. But I was secretly in a same-sex relationship and really had a lot of issues with men. I was really in this feminist mind space of unhealthy feminism, not biblical feminism, but where I didn't really like men. I was scared of them,

thought they were basically worthless. But then I realized that for this column, I only invited friends, female friends to go with me. And I was like, who do I know that's a dude that's not creepy and Matt Creed came to mind so and he alludes to this not creepy factor that was the first thing that attracted me to Matt um was his lack of creepiness vibe uh but yeah we became friends and he made his intentions clearer um and I was like hold up you don't even know what's going on with me behind the scenes um and yet there was this thing even though I just draw to my girlfriend I knew it was not God's best like I was not like oh this is right for me at that point I was I knew it wasn't God's best but I wasn't trying to like replace a her with a him but there was something about Matt that I was like, huh? It was just, huh?

It wasn't like, I want to put a ring on him. It was, huh? And so this friendship dating, like heart, uh, relationship took it from a, huh? Into where I was like, BT dubs. I never want to get married. Cause it looks like garbage. I told him that when we first started officially dating again, it wasn't like take me out to dinner. It was like, let's let's connect at this heart level. I said, I never want to get married. And I also don't want to kiss till I'm married because I don't want to replace, you know, one lust. I told her about I told him about my ex-girlfriend in these attractions and he told me i don't see you any differently and he didn't you know like people's eyes they can do that like eye flash of like you're weird gross and like get me out of here he really charlotte bronte is like the

eyes are the window to the soul essentially is what she said and that i just i have a hard time believing that so i'm gonna push a little like so she tells you she's attracted to women were you not were you like shocked but not not shocked kind of like like that's cool you know or were you not shocked like yeah i kind of knew that coming or like there had to have been some kind of like i had i had no no like inkling of of anything like i knew her um her ex-girlfriend like i thought they were just friends i actually really liked both of them in like the friendship sense matt's gaydar is terrible it's terrible which is fine i guess but but it was actually i i think the biggest thing that shocked me was the fact that growing up i grew up kind of stereotypically you know christian male yeah you

know and so for for me like i i didn't swear i didn't drink or smoke or do drugs or anything like that the one thing that was acceptable was making fun of gay people. And that's honestly, like, I grew up with all the jokes, with all the things, you know, all the things that I'm actually now regretful of, because some of my friends kind of have come out, and I realized, like, oh, man, I was probably a strong barrier for, feeling the love of God. And so anyway, Lori was the first person that, that I like had a real relationship with that I really cared about who, who came out. And at that point, I guess the shock for me was this idea that, wow, I don't, I don't see you any differently. Um, because based on my history, I'm like, I don't know where that came from. I don't know how, like how it was not like this shocking, like earth shattering thing for me, because up until that point, I would not have thought that of myself.

Um, and so when she told me that it really was like a, all of a sudden this, this thing that had been the, the them over there became the, this person I deeply care about right in front of me. And that that really changed a lot of my trajectory as far as like how I would ever interact with this conversation with these people, because they became real to me for the first time, honestly. Did you did you think at that point any kind of more than friendship feelings you had for laurie were like well there goes that you know or you're like hey all right this is a little curveball but we can work through this or what was your good question that is a good question that's not one i've ever been asked before um i i trusted her when she said that

she's not attracted to men but there was something about me that she was at least intrigued by that there was that, huh? You know, and so I was just like, OK, well, let's let's see how things go, as opposed to just this. I knew at that point our relationship would not look like a stereotypical, um, you know, physical allure that like kind of brings people together. And that's the basis of the relationship. It wasn't going to be that, which, which I was very grateful for, even though it was hard when she said, Oh, I never want to get married. And by the way, I don't want to kiss until I'm married. And so it's not exactly come hither at that moment, but it was something that I was like, okay, well, I don't know. Well, we'll try it out.

You're like, she may not want to kiss after we get married. Yeah. I mean, there's the book. Yeah. It is like God gave us love for each other. That sounds so dumb and cheesy, but it did feel like that. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I want to keep, if you don't mind, I want to keep going into this because I think there is a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of ignorance. I don't mean that in a demeaning way, just lack of knowledge on these kinds of relationships where one person is attracted to the same sex, person opposite sex some people call it a mixed orientation marriage uh for one um every relationship's different i we both know a lot of these kind of relationships that ended in disaster we both know i think i mean i i can think of about 10 off the top of my head people fairly close to me in this kind of marriage and you know it's a range of yeah it's just it's more of a struggle than it is a success all the way to like their marriage looks better than 95 of just typical heterosexual christian marriages i've seen um you guys are very honest about your relationship which i love um how has it

what are some big picture things how has it worked for you guys when i say worked i don't mean that it's all just puppies and roses or what's the metaphor puppies and roses right i don't know you're not gonna candy coat that it's like oh we're just walking a cloud nine all the time it's not that that. No marriage is. But how has it worked? Because your marriage, I would say, at least from the outside, is a successful, in the Christian sense of the term, marriage. In that you guys are honest. You're kingdom-minded. You're honest with each other.

You've been through a lot. You sacrifice a lot for each other. You're selfish, just like everybody else, I'm sure. But from the outside looking in, you guys have what I would say is a healthy meaningful marriage um what how have you guys made it work whereas others in a similar situation may have not not worked in the same way i mean i think a big thing is is we're both we're both doing our best to look inward at our own issues that we bring to the marriage rather than looking to the other person as the problem, as the person that has the issue that needs to be corrected. And I mean, that's been a long time coming, and that's still going to be a place where we are continuing this whole sanctification journey. where we are continuing this whole sanctification journey.

But I think for me, one of the places that our marriage works is actually the place where there's been a lot of pain where we've confronted, because of our relationship, we've had to confront our own approach to sexuality and the importance of it in a relationship and in a marriage specifically. The importance but not ultimate nature of yeah yeah yeah that so i think what our marriage confronts that has been accepted in marriages everywhere is attraction is key that's what other marriages can believe i'm not saying all marriages do That's what other marriages can believe. I'm not saying all marriages do believe. I'm saying they can believe attraction is key. Sex is the goal. And so in

marriages, you're just constantly doing bids is what some therapists call it for sex or for emotional heart connection. So like 84% of women will have sex with their husbands in order to get them to do more around the house. Seriously? What's the percentage? 84. And people laugh. What percentage of men do work around the house in order to...

And that's the thing. But like, you know know i read terrible statistics about teen girls right now who are in heterosexual relationships and how they're just basically being their bodies are being used they'll have sex with their boyfriend just so then they can get it off the table so then they can just talk they'll have a conversation with them. And as much as we're like, oh, my goodness, it's not that different in Christian heterosexual marriages. It's this, you know, this is your duty. There is maintenance sex. There was so much sex talk and advice for women and men, for guys.

When you're junior high or younger, your wife is going to be the one who's going to be essentially the sex receptacle for your hormones. You know, like that's how Matt grew up in the, in youth group was hearing that. And he can speak more into that. And I grew up, you know, hearing a lot of war on marriage stuff, but then to like sex felt ultimate, both on every chick flick, you see what's the climax when you know they love each other? Fade to black. And so it feels the same way when it comes to marriage. If that's the goal, if oneness equals sign sexual encounter with your spouse, that equation is what brought me to the edge of almost leaving that. Because we were unable to have sex anymore because of a trauma resurfacing,

magnetizing to my sexual orientation. So it was off the table. So I felt like my report card in this marriage was a failing grade constantly. Wow. And ministry world and the world world affirmed it all the time. I was so afraid to ask anyone for advice

because I felt like I was either going to get, Lori, you get, because you're, oh, you're not attracted to your spouse. Oh, well, you get the get out of marriage free card. You get to leave. Except if I was straight, I didn't get that. I would get phrases about suffering produces good fruit. Or I would get a more suffering produces good fruit. Wow.

Or I would get a more conservative angle, just have sex and just do it. That is the messaging that is preached to women in marriages. 1 Corinthians 7, which is a reflexive verb, we'll say, do not withhold. But it's do not withhold yourself. So I think what has helped us see that the glue that holds marriage together, what binds us all together in perfect harmony is the Holy Spirit and God's love and realizing that oneness, that word we throw around is not a euphemism for sex. Oneness is this holistic connection. And so when I took the report card of sex pressure off of us, I was actually able to work on some trauma things. And Matt and I

were able to see where are we able to connect? Just like a very, sorry, I'll say one more thing. I'll let you dig in Preston, please do. But we did an unscientific, technically, survey of about 100 couples, straight and mixed orientation marriages. And I asked them, where are their most challenged places in their marriage? Straight and mixed orientation marriages, top one, sex. sex. Yeah. Next one. That was their top challenge. Same. Cause you would think it'd be only mixed orientation marriages, right? Y'all got your issues too. But when I looked at where do you feel the most connected with each other? We mixed orientation marriages on the whole in this unscientific survey of a hundred couples, we beat y'all in a lot of different areas of emotional connection spiritual connection which that even the straightest couple you say woman especially will say it's the spiritual emotional that can lead to the physical so anyway that's it's i think just recognizing oneness is not a euphemism for sex and sex is not a report card for your marriage.

That that doesn't surprise me that both of those, which you said about that survey. I would love to see the reason. I know you're probably nervous because you said not scientific. You want to make sure you're not a sociologist, whatever. But that's still interesting. But that doesn't surprise. this is and it's hard for me to say this as a straight guy married to a straight woman you know i'm not speaking out of experience but you know having walked with people in marriages over the years having paid attention to the church having been involved in this conversation for a while um if people think and i say this to straight people and any any older, mature, straight couple just shakes their head like, yeah, obviously.

If you're relying on your sexual attraction towards each other to be kind of some foundational thing, the glue that holds this marriage together, the fuel that makes a marriage flourish, mixing metaphors, that's just wrong-headed. I don't care's your orientation is? A lot of that stuff does wear off. And I think, I mean, Matt, you probably even know the chemistry behind this, but from what I've heard, is it endorphins that you get in that falling in love feeling? Like the human body can't sustain that for very long. I think I read somewhere like two to three years or something like you can't that that euphoric high when you fall in love that that's just chemically you can't sustain so you have to imagine this relationship without that

doesn't mean love's not there doesn't mean passion's not there doesn't mean sex isn't you know but like that that stuff that brings us into a relationship is it can't be the thing that becomes the foundation am i am i is that can you verify anything yeah i think the i think it's like 18 months is is what that kind of endorphin that that that high will will typically last and once that's gone like and it it would show kind of in like for people who have been divorced and then remarried or like marry their the person they were cheating with. Typically, 18 months later, you'll see a drop off in those relationships because those highs are gone. That that passionate kind of drive is gone. And then they find themselves in just a normal relationship where other stuff has to become foundational, the emotional connection, the spiritual connection, all that. And so, yeah, I mean, the body can't sustain ongoingly that that level of, for lack of a better word, arousal toward toward another person without having something else to kind of bolster and support the relationship when those are gone.

Yeah. I want to go back, Laurie. You said you met Matt, and for once, he wasn't a creepy guy. I resonate with that. You and I don't like stereotypes and all this stuff. But guys generally can be super creepy. Like, I mean, I just look at my own upbringing and life. And on the scale of, like, guys, I was really moral. I was kind.

You know, if I said a bad word even before I was a Christian, I'd feel guilty. Like, I was a pretty good moral kid. But even me, like, the stuff that was going on in my mind and my heart, the things I would envision doing and just like what's going on in here is creepy. I'm looking at myself. I'm like, what's wrong with me? And then I'm around, you know, I played baseball and being in different athletic circles and just seeing like behind the scenes, even guys that were like, oh, he's such a nice in high school, you know? Oh, he's such a nice guy. I'm like, you should have heard what he said about you and your body

like five seconds ago behind your back, you know. Guys can be super creepy. So I guess my two questions, number one, what is it about Matt that wasn't, like, how did Matt stand out from that? And then my, just to anticipate, I want to know

how you felt when you, when Matt came out with his porn addiction. I can only imagine that must have been really traumatic. Yeah. Matt, you've heard him talk. He's just a gentle-hearted guy who truly believes the best in you, which makes him a great counselor. You know, like he believes in you and he will cry with you. You know, we were talking before recording, like Matt is more cerebral and he, you know, probably if he wasn't a believer, to be honest, he should probably be an engineer.

But the Holy Spirit has made him mercy hearted, has given him that gift. And so that combination of both the cerebral intellectual plus the heart, it just is a really gentle combination. I mean, honestly, just practically like just guys can look at women really poorly. And he didn't do that. So I think, you know, I was grieving this morning on my run. I'm like, God, why did you make men so visual? I know it's a good thing. I know it's good, but it's so broken. He didn't use his visual nature. I just could tell he wasn't looking at me like a piece of meat.

Wow, that's awesome. Obviously, that's something that I didn't do with you yet six years in when I came out to you with the pornography stuff. That was something that even though it wasn't this obvious space, it was this really, really hidden thing. Yeah, like Preston saying, like, yeah, like, I mean, I was not immune to that. Like, obviously my, my visual nature and honestly, my idolatry of, of sex, um, was, was something that led me to, to kind of go down that path. And so, like, I remember that was a really hard space for you because all of a sudden, like all of these words that you had spoken over me, not just not creepy, but when in six years later, yeah. When you're married, because you consistently said like like i'm so honorable and so trustworthy and all these things

and then all of a sudden i came clean to you and it was like all of that was just gone yeah um and there was a lot of grief there was a lot of anger um rightly so um but yeah there it was just kind of the shattering of this. I guess, quote unquote, perfect image that you had of me. It wasn't actually at that point real. And in defense of my intuitive skills, Matt and I were meeting when we met up when we first started dating. He wasn't addicted to pornography then. He was on a like good track with accountability. Yeah, he was well managed. Okay. Yeah.

What does that mean? Well, does that mean like every now and then, once a month, once a month? Is that – or go a few months? Yeah, explain that. Yeah, so it was something that I honestly thought that at that time I had beaten it. Okay. Because it had been something throughout like junior high, high school, early college that I had really struggled with. But I had a group of friends in college that we really made it our goal to eradicate this from our life. And so, I mean, it had been years, like

since I had looked and I was like, man, I feel like I'm home free. I feel like I'm like doing good. And then all of a sudden, like, and that's when Lori kind of, we met one another. But then after college with, after we got married and kind of everyone moves away and I lost this community, all of a sudden I found myself fighting on my own. And then just after about a year of marriage, just fell right back into it and felt really hard. And the reason for that is he was maintaining sin with accountability partners. That's usually as deep as we go in the church is let's put porn blockers on your computer and accountability partners. But then we just become cops and not cardiologists. And so that was the biggest thing Matt needed was to understand. And that's what helped me to see Matt in my rage was asking him, like, I know you've interviewed Jay Stringer. Yeah.

Some of your why for going there. Yeah. And nothing is ever only physical unless you are like a straight up monster. There's always our heart connected to it. And so when I was able to hear Matt's why, the Lord was just like, Lori, you literally are running to the same thing. Lori, you're attracted to women. Matt's attracted to women. You're attracted to women, not your spouse.

Matt's attracted to women, not his spouse. And I was like, but it's pornography that promotes sex trafficking. But you know, and he's like, you think I have a sin scale, but then he's like, back it down. Ask Matt why pornography. And it took him some inner heart work. And like, honestly, just a brainwashing. I just need the cleansing, like a detox detox because he's very addicted to be able to start the heart work but when i heard it was well you say why matt did you if that's okay preston why why was porn attractive to you yeah well i mean i we talk about like the heart language and so for me one of the things that pornography felt like it met was this like

good need to feel desired, not sexually desired, but sexually like so like affirmed chosen specifically, like, like, someone actually like was drawn to me, as he was, you know, like no pretense. And so there was just that that heart heart space. And yet after, okay, Lori talks about detox. Like one of the things that helped keep this marriage alive was after that Lori said, okay, I asked her what I needed to do to prove I was like in the marriage. And she said, well, get rid of your smartphone, get rid of your tablet, get rid of your computer. And I was like, done and done, like sold it all. Like I had nothing. I had a dumb phone with like the QWERTY keyboard and a screen like that big, you know, one inch square. Um, but that getting my face out of screens kind

of allowed it to detox my brain to kind of get a reset. i think it proved a lot like that i was willing to to do whatever it took to to be in the marriage and and to put her above you know pornography real quick before i know matt you got to leave in a second right um yeah real quick what i heard someone explain to me the difference between like periodic use, habitual porn use, and addictive porn use. Are those three categories, do you see those as valid? And can you real quickly, what would be the difference between each one? So, yeah, with what I work with, it's typically not periodic. I've never heard someone come to me and say, yeah, I look at porn once every two months.

It's either the habitual or the addictive. Habitual being once or twice a week or something? Or you can't put an arbitrary number, I'm sure. Yeah, it's not really about the number. The thing that makes a habitual or a compulsive behavior become an addiction is that our brains have habituated to it. It's gotten used to a certain amount of stimulus. And then it needs more. It needs the greater hit. And so it could be a different variety of porn. Typically, it goes either harder, more violent, or younger is

typically the way that people get kind of the bigger hit. And so it either goes that way or it becomes something that's uncontrolled where people are doing it in their car or in a public space or they're just not capable of saying no to it. And so that's what would turn this kind of compulsive habitual thing into this more addictive state. Yeah. So you have to rewire your brain. Um, yeah. So you have to rewire your brain. Like you just have to like get away detox. Like you did extreme measures so that your brain can kind of rewire itself to where it

doesn't like, like, like eating three meals a day. It doesn't go there anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's part of it. But then the other piece is like this, this introspective work that, you know, that people

like Jay Stringer would talk about is understanding the why, understanding the emotional drivers that are leading you down this pathway. And so for me, getting the screens out of my face, it wasn't just porn. It was screens itself. Like I would watch 24 hours a week of sports. We didn't have kids yet. Like it was nuts. Like unhealthy amounts of escapism, even something benign like sports, you know, and so I would escape at every moment. And so getting

the screens away actually forced me to be in my own head enough to be able to identify like why, why porn or why is it so important for me to escape? And so there were things like my own, my own value system, not really feeling like I was in myself worthy, you know, or loved or desired or had purpose, you know, beyond escaping into whatever virtual realm I went to. And so, yeah, the detox piece is, is important because it allows our brains to reset, but it also allows space to do some of that introspective work. Laurie, how did you work through? I know women rightly can just really, really struggle, go to dark places when a husband's

porn addiction comes out. And you've referenced a couple of times your anger and rage. How did you work through to where you can come and rather than being kind of against Matt, come alongside and help him in this? I had to cut off, similar to Matt's detox, I had to cut out voices that were speaking what my flesh was saying. Which my flesh was like, this is the one man you trusted. He's like every other man, you know, like wanted to burn it all down. Um, and people who were like not pro our marriage, I just had to shut them all down because it's very, you can jump on man hater Island real quick. And this was, you know,

six years ago, it's only gotten turned up now, which there are some, you know, stereotypes of men we got to burn down, but the good Matt B to be a man is not wrong to be mass. Jesus masculine is not wrong. So, um, which we'll, we don't need to go there anyway. I had to shut all those voices down and, um, I asked the Lord, can you help me to feel what you feel about this? And I just remember sitting on the floor at one point and I was so angry and I was trying to open my heart up because you can't be both hateful and bitter and open hearted to God. I don't I don't think you can do both very well. At least I couldn't.

So I was like cracking my heart open, trying to listen to the Lord as Matt is sitting next to me. And what helped was Matt was repentant. And that is not always the case. So here he is broken down. And I just sensed, I was like, God, help me to feel your emotion about this. His emotion. I didn't know if he would do that. But I just sensed Jesus joy and hope.

And he was like, you have no idea how I'm going to use this. And then I looked at Matt and I was like, I am still so mad at you, but I sense God has a ton of hope for us. So I am choosing to believe that. And that was really a big crowbar that helped me to take steps. I did a lot of grieving, a lot of forgiving. That's a whole other conversation is what does actual forgiveness look like? And there was many rounds, many rounds of forgiveness, not just once. How long ago was that when you came clean? It was six years in your marriage. 2015. So five years ago. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that's got to go do some therapy for others.

Yeah. Oh, man. Good luck. So tell us, let's just go back to your book. Okay. I mean, we, I'm sure a lot of what we're talking about is probably scattered throughout the book on some level or another, but give us the overview of what this book's about and why people should go check it out. I hope the one takeaway people have for this book is they get the metaphor of marriage. I heard that growing up sort of like marriage is a gospel metaphor, but it felt inverted to me. Like it felt like male, female, like Christ in the church is somewhere in Ephesians five, uh, love and respect and

sanctification. And, um, when it came down to me wrestling with leaving or staying like words like sanctification, to be honest with you are so good and so important. But I, I just said to myself, I was like, I can get sanctified somewhere else. Like, and I even knew Preston, like you knew me then, like when I was wrestling is I knew the arguments against same sex marriage, but I was was like this isn't worth staying in this marriage so I think if um for me understanding the metaphor of male and females on purpose yeah yeah the difference between men and women is not a cosmic joke like I hear so many times on marriage podcasts and people are well-meaning. But if I can just do a little shout out, can you guys please, not you, Preston, but please, married people who are working in marriage work,

please stop with all the gender joking of like, oh, the old ball and chain and oh, the old woman, she's just so controlling and men are all idiots. Because if there's people listening to you who are wrestling with stain and perhaps they're attracted to the same sex, when you're rolling your eyes at how stupid the opposite sex is, we're just saying, yeah, why are you even married? You seem to hate each other. Why are you even married? You seem to hate each other.

But for me to understand that male-female difference is not a cosmic joke where hormones trick you into marriage and the rings make your lust Christian legal. And then you just have to, like, make it work for the kids. And ha-ha, Christians don't get a divorce. But it's to show a picture of Christ. If male female are so different how different is god from humanity yeah yeah ontologically he's far above every ruler and power and authority is great and yet he wants to marry us so this they are our current and future reality and so every time even when i'm like, why is Matt so different? And then I see our kids looking at us working through something. I'm like, they are getting a picture of our seeking oneness of how God works to be one with us. This is not just a,

we're not just working to bid for sex. We're working to show our kids and our neighbors and people at the grocery store and our church how God wants to marry us. So maybe it's just me that doesn't get that, but I hope if people read it, they'll walk away with a greater understanding of the marriage metaphor. It's a picture too of just various themes of reconciliation, unity between differences, whether it's ethnic differences or political differences or racial differences. I mean, all throughout Scripture, you see that beautiful theme of God doing the impossible, whether it's bringing together male, female, bringing together different kinds of people. Even the 12 apostles, you know, you got Simon the Zealot, you know, suicide bomber. And then you have Matthew, the tax collector, who's working for the government that Simon is trying to overthrow through

violence, you know, and God brings them together. I'm sorry, we're going to come together. And, you know, this is like, you know, I think I've used this metaphor before, but like, you know, Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi and, you know, I'm the same team somehow without doing, you know, losing their differences. I can't, yeah. Even that that's like that would never happen, but God can do that sort of thing.

And I think marriage is a picture, at least it participates in that kind of reconciling power of God whereby he wants to reconcile all things to himself. But these are deeper theological, all things to himself. But these are, you know, these are deeper theological,

creational themes that so few people, you know, we both grew up in the church and I rarely hear marriage talked about on that kind of level. It's almost like the church has adopted a very much a secular view of marriage. It's all about compatibility, romance, yada, yada, yada. We might throw in something about sacrifice and our one big footnote is don't have sex till you get married

you know that that's our great contribution you know but really but the whole form the flavor the tone the purpose all these things are very much it looks very similar to the world you know you fall in love you fall out of love and um i don't know i just think it's time for the church to really do a deep dive not just study but truly understand you know the deep roots of marriage but well which is why i love people in your situation you know you've had to do that you can't rely on the old tired view of marriage to get you through you have to dig you right i mean've had to do that. You can't rely on the old tired view of marriage to get you through. You have to dig. Right?

I mean, you had to dig deeper. Otherwise, it may not have worked out. Oh, no. I don't see how it would have because it just felt too thin. And it was too thin. If it's only a horizontal, not that the other things are unimportant, like trying to figure out the horizontal relation always, but without the vertical, I don't understand how people stay married.

I don't. And I don't think maybe are the gospel pictures that God has planted all over the place with those he's called to marriage. I don't think we're very effective. Yeah. You mentioned kind of passing and we've talked about this a lot but i mean you you swim in kind of a broad range of circles from conservative to moderate to progressive um have you felt your relationship especially when it is successful for lack of better terms. Have you sensed that that has become like a threat to other people?

And I'm saying more on the progressive side of things that this kind of your marriage should not work because you're not attracted to guys. Yeah. Do you ever feel like that? Or I, I, I mean, do I feel the hatred?

Oh yeah. It's unreal. It's, I mean, being like when we had worked through our stuff and we were not verbal yet about like our pain and I was pregnant with our third kid. I felt like literally this basketball that I was carrying around was a symbol of like evil to people like that should not exist. Your marriage should not exist. people like that should not exist your marriage should not exist um so yeah i think i think people i think there's a lot of hate and i don't know do people curse people i don't know like i can just you feel it and i see it and i hear it um well why would why would that be this is just your story you've never once ever ever hinted like hey this hey, this is for everybody. You should try it out. But this is your story. Why is your individual story perceived as a threat? I mean, maybe your answer is I don't know why, but I mean, I just it kind of is bewildering to me that in an age of in a push for tolerance, people can be so intolerant towards somebody's individual narrative that they're not trying to push on other people.

People can be so intolerant towards somebody's individual narrative that they're not trying to push on other people. I've become sort of I can become a sort of a strange idol for people who hate me. You know, Peter talks about LGBT people and allies are like, what we need once we have same-sex marriage, then we'll be okay. Then it gets legalized. Well, once we have affirming churches, then we're okay. No, no, no. Now it's like once everyone who stands against me agrees with me, I will not stop. against me is agrees with me i will not stop but that start of their sentence the once i have at least i have once i do that's idol talk that's that's those are signs of idols and so it's like i've become this like bizarro or not just me i mean i'm i'm not whatever people in this world

in this field um who hold a historical biblical view marriage and sexuality they it's like we become this bizarre idol to them and if they were truly okay with and really believing this is god's best they wouldn't think about me i i just wonder i just wonder i don't know something's going something there's sand in just wonder. I don't know. Something's going on. There's sand in their soul, and I don't think it's me. I wonder if there's a prick of the Holy Spirit in there. But then, too, I just become once Lori is silent, at least silent. Sure, Carrie living on, but silent. Then I'll be okay.

Is that what it is? Because once you become kind of a public figure like you are and teaching others and being more vocal um yeah that i guess that's when it becomes a threat um even though you're not again even though you're not saying hey this kind of marriage can totally i've never heard you say this is for anybody or everybody or you know at all and i don't in fact i don't know a single person in a mixed orientation marriage that does that they're all very eager to say this is our story don't look at this and say therefore you should go pursue a opposite sex partner even though you're same-sex attracted um man that's uh yeah um you feel like it's getting worse and more volatile i mean everything's getting more volatile. Seems like these days.

A hundred percent, a hundred percent more volatile. And I just keep meditating because I was like, I can walk into a room, Preston, and I can scan the room and go, OK, who hates me? Do they do they know what they follow me to hate me? And it's I mean, at this point, I can walk into a room and everyone has an opinion about my life, you know, from either angle. And that was not a healthy place for me to live. It's not a healthy place for anyone to live. And so but but the answer is not also stoicism. I just don't even care what they think whatever because there's deep down there's still

something that still wants to be seen and known and loved so i've just been meditating on love your enemies and so whether they like me or not it's my job to every day start with jesus and say jesus do you love me and drink in his love and then it's my job to go in every room enemies and not and i'm gonna love the crap out of you imperfectly but that's honestly that's like as i think about this book coming out it could throw a grenade in a fire you know that's in a very hostile time of our country. Why would it do that? Because again, it is largely descriptive. Well, it's also prescriptive. I mean, but it's not like it's a bold defense

of the traditional view of marriage theologically. I don't, I mean, I didn't get that sense, but there's that element that does underlie a lot of what you guys do. I mean, what is it about the book that's going to make people so upset you think just your very existence in your marriage because i'm not affirming because i'm a bizarro idol that's not i'm not what they want they want us in my opinion they want to be us to be silent so it's until i'm silent i don't i don't they're just

they're just so angry you look at look at the comments maybe you don't read comments of other books in our field yeah it doesn't matter even if what they're saying is true or not the very fact that they said anything yeah makes people angry so that's why i'm like no matter what you guys say i'm just gonna love you yeah i'm just gonna no matter what you guys say, I'm just going to love you. Yeah. I'm just going to love you. And you, yeah, you are in an environment where you actually are in physical proximity to people who can't stand you. Um, much of my, my local environment, environment is really quiet. Like I, you know, most of my other stuff is out there. So for me, it is once I, once I discipline myself with social media,

I, yeah, I don't really, I haven't read an Amazon review of my book in years because anybody with an internet connection and a keyboard can write a review. And it's like, I don't need to pay attention to that. I definitely pay attention to thoughtful, humanizing critiques. I i love i thrive on that but if once i see like a lazy slogan you know homophobe or like i'm done i'm done that's just that's a lazy slogan or a slur like or some kind of ad hominem like who are you to once i see that it's that's it's deleted

like i just don't pay attention it's not worth my time and energy but give me a thoughtful humanizing critique and prove to me you're not a russian bot yes i i assume any comment online is a russian bot until they prove that they're a human through humanizing speech so that's kind of the approach i've taken in the last few years so i just i've deleted tons of russian bots um you know or at least people that sound sound like that again lazy sloganeering slurs dehumanizing rhetorics assuming things about me or just making stuff up i mean just preston says two plus two equals five you know i've had people say almost that you know like why would i waste my time like say no i believe it's four you know um right so yeah in that no the internet is easier

to to quiet and i have gotten some very respectful like very well-meaning people who have tried to rescue me from my marriage it's very sweet and a little strange but like and you're christian christians these are christians right i mean yeah yeah i mean i mean i mean i can't tell you they're confessing christians but yes totally so those i'm like oh yes i appreciate what you're saying here's my arguments i'm not going to change but i really appreciate what you're saying so that's a totally different ball game and yeah the the just like peppered bots those are are much easier to ignore it's more the face-to-face challenges um yeah those ones like literally walk into a room not walk onto a social media platform like walk into a room

that's where i'm working on love. That's tough. That's got to be wearing. I mean, is that stress and anxiety, whether it's on the surface or just kind of deep down? I mean, that's got to be draining. Yeah, it is draining. And it's different, especially when you have kids. You know, it's not just draining.

It can be like challenging. And how are my kids going to be treated at school? And I don't want to dive too much into that. But I this is why it's important to know your call, that you're called to marriage, that you're called to this conversation. Did you know I couldn't speak about this at all? I'd go catatonic until 2014. Did you know I couldn't speak about this at all? I'd go catatonic until 2014. Did you know that? No. People would bring up the word homosexuality or anything in any circle from the years 2000, whatever, six until 2014. I couldn't talk about this in public at any level

in any space at all. Why? And it was because it was so scary. I might have shared with like two small groups. I don't know. It was so close to my heart, Preston. And it was so personal and people talked about it so terribly. And then in 2014, I was asked to blog for lies young women believe or something. And they're like, we have an audience of like 30,000 readers a month. And I was like, well, I guess I'm coming out now. And so I finished like sharing with all my family. And I tell you what, Preston, the Holy Spirit, like plug me into a wall. And it was like, all of a sudden, I could just talk about it. And I had to study. It's not like I just knew everything. I'm still learning. But that's why like you have to be called to this

if you are and then have your prayer team around you, have your support system. And not just for this conversation. I think that's the next layer of this intense Christian world that we're stepping into. And I'm not about to pull the martyr flag. I'm not. I'm just saying I don't think an Instagram Christianity, if that is our whole meal, that's not going to cut it in this next phase of whatever's coming. We have to if you're called to speak up about anything that's really gritty, Christ, we're Christian. It's like get rooted, get your people around you and could be awesome well and just thinking out loud i i you know okay like everybody else who's following politics and news a lot closer the last six months i mean i you and i both know that one's approach to the LGBTQ conversation is intertwined with the race conversation. Oh, 100%.

Right? I mean, it's woven together. And there's different theories on this. Some might say, you know, some LGBT people are kind of riding the coattails of race. I'm not going to quite – I don't know the motivation. I'm not going to quite, I don't know the motivation or even like turning one's sexual orientation into a kind of a fundamental ontological identity. So it's such a, such a fabric of who you are, just as maybe your race or ethnicity is. But I mean, what I'm seeing more and more, and this has been true since I entered the conversation eight years ago, seven years ago. There are people who would equate if, you know, somebody holding to a traditional view of marriage, that marriage is one man, one woman, and that same-sex relationships are therefore deemed not God's will.

That belief is equated with racism. I mean, with wearing a white hood and being a KKK member, like there are people and it was a lot less seven, eight years ago. I just feel it more and more. And now when I look at stuff happening in Seattle and Portland and the anger, the rage that people have toward what they perceive as racism, like what they're doing with every, you know, the police force. I mean, that's that's I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of people are in the police force. But if you're in some circles, if you're a white cop, you could be Mother teresa like amazing morally and that just doesn't because you are a white cop you participate in this uniform identity of a kkk member like you are intrinsically immoral evil so i'm going to throw explosives after you because i'm good you're evil and evil

needs to be taken out is it too much of a stretch to say that that mentality will very quickly, if it's not there already, be turned to people living in America who hold to a traditional view of marriage? I was thinking that yesterday, listening to NPR and like all the changes, you know, what it is, somebody was saying, we will not stand with the racists. We are going to stand like it was a government thing. And I was like, OK, that's great. I totally you shouldn't stand with the racists, like with the clashes that were happening in Seattle. The government was saying that. And it was such a like you can feel the collective. Yes, of course not. You as the government need

to share that. And I just thought, how soon is it we will not stand with the homophobic people who do not do not hold to an affirming worldview? I'm sure will be different words who are not affirming, completely affirming. I just had that like thought. Like, I wonder how quickly it will be. Like I've had people for just an Instagram post. They'll say, you know, you're the same as telling black people to bleach their skin and straighten their hair and you're and you're encouraging rape. And I was like, OK, just for holding what I'm saying, I hear you. But no. So, yeah, I agree with you, Preston. It will be probably very quick. And God help us really to love, love and be bold.

But love is what conquers fear. That's good. Well, I kept you almost an hour here, Lori. Again, the book is An Impossible Marriage? Like A.N.? A.N., yes. An Impossible Marriage. What's the subtitle?

What Our Mixed Orientation Marriage Has Taught Us About Love and the Gospel. Okay. I had to throw the gospel. Wherever books are sold, go check it out, Lori. Oh, tell us really, really briefly, too, about your ministry and what you do, you and Matt. I mean, you guys do amazing work in this area. We kind of ambiguously referenced it. But yeah, for those who don't know.

Yeah, we've done a transition as a ministry. We actually have a new name, which is Impossible Ministries. And our mission is to equip the church to live out the impossible without Jesus metaphor of Christ in the church, but single and married people. I don't have it exactly memorized. I'm almost there. We just launched it, but Impossible Ministries. If you go to lauricrieg.com, you can find out all about it. Laurie, thanks so much for being on the show.

Appreciate your friend and many blessings on this book. Hope it does well. Hope it gets in the hands of many people. I think anybody who is in a marriage or considering marriage absolutely needs to pick up this book. So thank you so much for the many years of hard work I know that you have put into this. I mean, you've been, yeah, it's been a long time. So congrats on the book. Thanks, man. Appreciate you've been, yeah, it's been, it's been a long time. So congrats on the book. Thanks, man. Appreciate you, Preston. you