Theology in the Raw - 832: Discipling Teenage Girls, Modesty, and the “Billy Graham Rule:” Jessie Minassian

Episode Date: December 14, 2020

Jessie and I met way back in college and have been friends for more than 20 years. Jessie is an author, speaker and the resident “big sis” at LifeLoveandGod.com, a Q&A website for teen girls. She���s passionate about helping girls embrace the God who loves them, and to help them apply His truth to their everyday lives. In this episode, we talk about some of the challenges that teen girls face today, from social media to body image issues to porn and other sexual challenges. We then wade into the controversial area of the so-called “Billy Graham rule” and the issue of modesty. Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today, my good friend, we go way back to college, Jessie Manassian. Jessie Manassian runs a ministry for teen girls. The website is called Life, Love, and God, where teen girls find answers. Jessie is also a writer, not just a writer, like she writes books, because that's what Christians do. She's actually a gifted writer, an incredibly good writer. She has a degree in journalism, and has written several really good books. Most of them kind of are directed towards teen girls. And I talk about them in the podcast. The one that I would highly recommend is called Unashamed, Overcoming the Sins No Girl Wants to Talk About. Another good one is Crushed.

Why Guys Don't Have to Make or Break You. And Jesse is just super thoughtful, super honest. We have a really good conversation about purity culture, about the Billy Graham rule. I know some of you have heard me kind of wrestle out loud with how I feel about that. Then we do talk about modesty. how I feel about that. Then we do talk about modesty. Remember back in the day when like,

if a girl wore something a little too tight, then they would be blamed for inviting the lust of all the guys. And all the shame was heaped upon girls for, you know, causing their brothers to stumble. We navigate some of those issues and we do sort of very, very honest way. I hope you enjoy it. I'm sure you won't agree with everything we throw out,

but none of us are really, I don't know. We, we, we have a very open, honest, thinking out loud conversation about that. We also talk a lot about teen girls and the various challenges that are, you know, facing them today. Um, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, or you can support me through Venmo. All the info is in the show notes. And also, I do have a book coming out on February 1st. As if you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard me talk about it. The title of the book is Embodied Transgender Identities, the Church and What the Bible Has to Say. I invite you to go check it out. If you're at all

interested in what I would like to think is a thoughtful Christian approach to the transgender conversation. It looks at a lot of testimonies, a lot of stories. It digs into what the Bible says about male and female identities. It looks fairly thoroughly at a lot of the science surrounding trans experiences. It looks at some philosophical questions and answers various, well, answers. It responds to various pastoral or relational questions like, should I use the pronouns that my trans friend wants me to use? What about bathrooms and changing spaces? How should we think through the large increase of teenage females identifying as trans and much, much more?

So go check it out on Amazon. It's available for preorder. Okay, let's jump in our conversation with Jesse Manasseh. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Rom here with a long-term friend, Jesse Manassi. And Jesse is, we went to college together. We go way back. But Jesse has written several books.

I've got your website open here. So Unashamed, Overcoming the Sins No Girl Wants to Talk About, Crushed, Why Guys Don't Have to Make or Break You. I think I've read bits and pieces, if not, I think one of those, I read the whole thing. The other one I read part of it. Backwards Beauty, How to Feel Ugly in 10 Simple Steps. And then Family, How to Love Yours and Help Them Like You Back. I mean, cool title, first of all. But as you can tell, I mean, these books, at least a couple of them, well, they are written mainly to like teen girls in particular.

And that's been a big part of your life in ministry, right, is helping teen girls sort through life to follow God. And that's not an easy task as a father of teen girls. So anyway, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. Oh, well, first, it's an honor, you know, for a long time, I've long respected your ability to not only just the theological side, the integrity of the work that you do to be theologically accurate, but your grace and ability to maybe, yeah, just wrestle with the messy middle. I've always admired that and have learned a lot listening to Theology and the Raw. So I'm excited to be on this show. I'm really honored. Oh, thank you. And yeah, to answer your question, those books were all part of a series for teen and college

age girls called the Life, Love, and God series. And that was born out of a website that my husband started. Goodness, I feel like it's been 12, 15 years ago now, where I was speaking to teen girls, and they had lots of questions. And I was like writing them back via email. And my husband said, Hey, wouldn't it be awesome and post those answers so that you don't have to keep writing the same thing over and over. And this was back before blogging was cool. And you could do it, you know, on your own. And so we started that over. And this was back before blogging was cool and you could do it, you know, on your own. And so we started that website and the really cool thing,

we had this feature where girls could ask questions and under the cloak of anonymity, because they didn't have to give their name, they started opening up about the stuff they were really struggling with. And it was really eyeopening to me to see. Yeah, there were, I mean, there were obviously a lot of questions about boys and relationships and does he like me? Does he not? Should I ask him out? Should I tell him how I feel? Um, but there were also a good number of questions from girls struggling with eating disorders and self-harm and sexual addiction and, um, some of these secret sins that they thought they couldn't share with anyone. And so that's kind of how the Life, Love, and God ministry was born and have been doing that for quite a while now.

It's been interesting to see the shift over the past 10 to 15 years of what girls are struggling with and how they're viewing some of these core questions that we wrestle with as women, how those have been influenced by our culture, social media, how that has influenced our desires to know whether we're beautiful, to know whether we're lovable, and to know whether there's a God who would accept us despite everything we've done. I feel like those are the three core questions. So, um, it, it's been quite a journey of walking with these girls and seeing into their twenties and early thirties and seeing where they're ending up. So I remember, yeah, I totally remember when you

started the website. I remember, I think we were out visiting you guys or maybe shortly after it started, uh, just because you were getting such an influx of questions and stuff. Oh, so real quick, the website is lifeloveandgod.com, lifeloveandgod.com, or if you just Googled it. Well, it's in the show notes somewhere. I'm sure it'll make its way in there so people can check it out. You said the shifts that you've seen over the years. So what are some of the big picture shifts in the kinds of questions you're getting from 12, 15 years ago to today? Yeah, that's a great question. I really have been surprised in the sense that the core questions are

the same. Like they still have desire for authentic relationship, still have a desire to know that they're beautiful, still wrestle with a lot of the same questions about God. But the biggest shift that I've seen has been with social media. Those questions have become, the answers to those have become even more twisted through what they're viewing. So that question, am I beautiful? For example, we'll take that one. through what they're viewing. So that question, am I beautiful? For example, we'll take that one. Uh, looking at Instagram, scrolling through the definition of what beauty is,

has become what they're viewing in their Instagram feed. Really flat out. I mean, that's, that's that. I hear that. I would assume that. And I hear other people say that, but you're, you're in the trenches of not just one or two girls, but a bunch like that is flat out you've seen that to be true i i i have and it's funny i mean we we can know that the the images are photoshopped that they're not real like there's apps literally that can shape your body in real time doing a video on instagram so that you're thinner wider hips bigger, whatever it is. We know that these things are out there. And still, as girls looking at the images, it can become this feeling of I should be able to look like that. It's a strange sort of neurological phenomenon

that I really can't explain other than to say, yeah, I mean, it actually is true. And then the other layer seen that has shifted so much on that same question of am i beautiful with uh pornography being so rampant the addiction to pornography being so just a pandemic levels in the church outside the church the definition of beauty has shifted and changed to be very overtly sexual so i mean i just uh saw a new music video out by two empowered female rappers where i know what you're talking about like 10 seconds that is insane that that that yeah yeah empower we're so empowered i'm like wow i i just yeah i wouldn't i'm not gonna mention it because i don't i don't want want people, I mean, it's basically, it's porn. I mean, it's worse than porn, but it's just a music video. I mean, it's crazy.

mainstream pop culture. And so these girls are seeing, I mean, I don't think we can blame young women for wanting to feel powerful in the sense that, I mean, one in three to one in four women are sexually abused in some way in their lifetime, right? So there is an element of powerlessness, I think, that young girls feel, especially when it comes to sexuality and so they're seeing these women who are rich and who are vocal and who are dressing like porn stars and they see that as as powerful and as beautiful and so it just gets really really tricky and twisted you know so i i know porn is always seen as kind of a guy thing and we've gotten to a place where we acknowledge oh it's girls could be on porn too but are you seeing is it like pretty high at least growing percentage among girls or even teenage girls absolutely absolutely and the

reasons why i think are are different i mean part of it is we as females are still sexual creatures, especially, you know, in those, uh, during puberty and shortly after puberty got us designed our bodies to be more heightened sexually. Um, but I, I've been surprised by the number of girls I've talked to who have been introduced to porn and encouraged to watch porn with their boyfriends. And so here's this guy that supposedly loves them, who supposedly wants to be with them, who is saying, Hey, we should watch this together. And this will be good for our relationship. Um, that does, that does things that, that sends some really destructive messages. So that's another way that girls I think are exposed and then get hooked by it. Um, I just got a question on the website from a woman this week who is no longer

a teen. She's in her marriage, but, um, again, assume, assume that it was very much a male problem. Doesn't feel like there's a lot of resources for, um, which is, which is true. Um, traditionally we have viewed it as a male problem, but it is for sure not just a male problem. And I don't know what the percentages are, but they're definitely growing. The number of young women and even older women who have porn addictions and it's destroying them. Absolutely. Yeah. So what are some after effects that you've seen of specifically teen girls that got hooked on porn and then later on get married or whatever? Like, what have you seen any destructive patterns in their in their own sexuality or sexual expression that results from that? Or is it just kind of all over the map? results from that? Or is it just kind of all over the map? That's a good question. I don't feel like I can give an expert opinion on that because I don't always get to talk to these women or young women, you know, into their 20s and 30s later. So there's only a few examples that I have of

girls who I know had that addiction and then got married. And I would say one of the things I've noticed is just difficulty with, with healthy sexuality within marriage of either wrestling with, um, things that they were exposed to in the past, those images coming back up, or just a feeling of sex is bad. Like, you know, because it was so tied to to those experiences in young adulthood and when they were watching it they knew it was bad um so it just yeah it's it's caused some unhealthy views you know sex and of their own sexuality i think later on but i think we have yet to see really the the full outcome of what this is going to do in marriages, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the road.

Yeah, really. I mean, it really is an epidemic. I mean, it's, yeah, I don't see it slowing down. And you can put guardrails on, but I mean, you know, these, you know, phone apps or whatever, right? I mean, Covenant Eyes, I think is one of the most popular ones. And I think that can help. But there is, do you find that there are deep rooted heart issues that are kind of feeding

into it rather than just, you know, I don't know, curiosity or I just feel like watching porn? I mean. Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, I do. I do think that there are some deep rooted things and I think, yeah, curiosity, that physical addiction that comes from it.

But I think the questions, am I beautiful and am I lovable? At least from a female perspective, those do come into play. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky to know. Sometimes it's tricky to get to the root of it. Right. And so this has obviously changed in your ministry over the last 10 years or so, just with, I mean, when you first started the website, smartphones, I guess, were just coming into being. So you don't have to deal with people walking around with the internet in their pockets.

But that I would imagine that's been a huge catalyst for a lot of change and the kinds of questions you're getting. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, both, both with the sexual addiction, but also eating disorders. And yeah, I mean, it affects so many areas of our life, as you know, that it's just shifted culture so drastically in the past 10, 15 years. So help me to understand this. I read a book by Jean Twenge called I, Jen. Here, this is, have you read this yet? I have it on my list.

Okay, this is, I'll hold up there. Fascinating book. uh i have it on my list okay this is i'll hold up their fascinating book i mean if you if you have any kind of ministry towards teenagers it's um or even if you're a parent of teenagers it's great great book but um she talked about this kind of like this weird in like incongruence this this um between girls like you said like like like body image and looking at Instagram and social media, and that's kind of heightening this introspective view of oneself. And yet there's also this retreat from typical social events. going out with your friends to the movies to stay at home in your sweats in your bed and you know watch netflix while you're you know snapchatting your friend who's watching the same show or something or sexting your boyfriend or something it's just this weird like like you said there's this body image kind of thing going on but it's like it's almost like you're still in your bedroom

in your sweats though it's not like you're going out and high heels and getting all done up and is that and even like the um teenage pregnancy i heard is at an all-time low or at least much much lower or even just sex outside of marriage like teenagers are having sex a lot later um and i want i know for me i'm like i don't know is it just because they're on porn and they'll it's kind of curbing that i don't know like it's just it's just a weird intersection of different things at play that you wouldn't think would go along with it or even like yeah you know i'll drop my daughter off at school and you know i'll see girls with like a blanket they're bringing their blankets to school and they they're in their baggy sweats you know but then they're developing an

eating disorder because they're looking at like i just how does that it seems like it's it's like if you're going to school in your big blankie in your sweats you obviously don't care about body maybe you do i don't know it's i'm trying to wrap my mind around it um welcome to being a scene in 2020 i tell girls it literally i say this, it is the hardest time in history, I think to be a teenager, like it just, there's all these expectations and pressure and yeah. And I think some girls, they respond to it in very different ways. Some are going to be like, well, I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm just me. I'm going to wear my baggy sweats. And then there's other girls who are going gonna like obsess about every detail of their outfit as they head to school

and I almost wonder if they're both kind of like two sides of the same sword of just like not knowing how to cope with the pressures that they're feeling to be perfect to get it all done to to yeah to be in touch with everyone who's ever like friended them on social media and feeling more and more social anxiety going into social settings because they don't know how to have face-to-face relationships anymore as a whole. Um, it's a lot, it's a lot. I don't envy the place that they're at. And I'm just grateful that God is still bigger, right? Every generation and everything everyone has faced.

It can't be discouraging when you just look at all the challenges. And it's interesting going back to the body image stuff. And again, I don't have a stat for this, but it seems like unhealthy eating habits are much higher than they used to be. Teenagers aren't getting out and stuff. They are kind of on their phone. I wonder if that's related. I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if that's related to eating disorders.

Cause like, instead of, you know, I feel like when I was a teenager, I'd go to the gym and there's tons of teens, early 20 something, you know, like working out now,

at least at my gym, I don't see that as much. And I've heard that like obesity is an all-time high people are eating like just crappy food and yet they want this impossible image and so that's related to well i can just the only way to get that is through an eating disorder is that is that putting those pieces together is that at all am i on something that is one of my suspicions. And I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't wait.

But that's definitely something I've observed just anecdotally. I think just the stampin diet is not doing anyone any favors. And these young women who are already feeling a tremendous pressure to look a certain way, they don't know how to eat, how, if they knew how to eat well, their body would take care of itself. Their body would naturally fall to the weight it should be, the size it should be. But because we're putting in so many extra calories and unhealthy calories in our bodies, they feel out of control.

They feel like they don't know how to to have a healthy body a healthy body weight um and so I mean that's totally I don't know if you remember this part of my story but I struggle with exercise bulimia in college and that was totally the case for me I'm playing sports so even though I ate terribly I I, you know, stayed in fairly good shape through college. And then when I quit playing volleyball in college, um, all of a sudden those, you know, late night pasta runs started catching up to me and I felt completely out of control. And so the only thing I knew to do was to exercise every calorie off. And so that was something that I was trapped in for, for some time of just feeling like I,

I couldn't, I couldn't eat more than I exercised. Um, what did you call it? An exercise bulimia? Exercise bulimia. Yeah. So it's like, it's a purging of calories, but, um, I don't know if this is TMI, but I couldn't make myself throw up. So i had to exercise it off now exercise is good like we obviously you're saying you did it excessively and for the wrong motivation what did that look like are you talking like an unhealthy way yeah i think it's more just like the relationship you have with food so feeling tremendous guilt when i would eat and then not feeling a release of that guilt until I would, you know, see you've burned 476 calories on the treadmill or, you know, taking my five mile run or whatever. Um, I mean, I, I love exercise still, but I now have a much healthier relationship with food.

And so I can exercise for health and not to purge what I've eaten. Okay, man, I'm feeling a little guilty. So I'm 44 and my metabolism is shot. And now it's like if I know it's Friday night pizza night, I'm like, oh, dude, okay. I got to go do leg day at the gym and get that metabolism cranking. Because it's – dude, I used to go – you talk about late night pasta runs. When we're at Masters in college, I would go to Taco Bell like two in the morning and literally eat

like 10 tacos and wake up, wake up hungry. And like, that was just a way. And now like, if I don't exercise three or four days a week, um, and I don't do a lot, maybe 45 minutes or an hour. And I, you know, some, some weeks are one day or no none some are most i would say maybe five um if i don't do that though and if i don't eat healthy i i just can't burn i can't burn it man it just sits there i could eat like one meal a day and i was like i don't get hungry i don't um but i'd love to eat. So I, yeah. Oh, man. We can have an intervention another time.

What's that? He said we can have an intervention another time about eating for fuel and so forth. I just miss those days. Just when you could literally. Or those Jack in the Box tacos. Okay, no. Oh, two for a dollar? I don't know what is in those things.

I'm pretty sure there's some crack laced into them. But I – and I can't – I just can't do it anymore. I can't – it will destroy me. But I used to, yeah, easily put down a dozen. They would just slide right down. All right, let's – You get wasted. I want to transition because i we had this so um yeah you were out at

our house a couple weeks ago and we were supposed to be doing this live in my basement right here but didn't have time um you were spending time with my girls which was awesome uh um but yeah so we started having this conversation about modesty and um kind of how it's related to purity culture um that we were both raised in um i didn't know i was raising it till kind of like looking back you know we didn't know i don't think it was called that then but um we're raised in a purity culture where the you know we kind of like especially in our context billy graham rule you know guys you know keep women at an arm's length you know don't ride in the same elevator or whatever. Um, and that's kind of been dismantled a little bit and shown how that kind of, um, way of living, especially as a young Christian guy has created

some problems, you know, and yet I still, I still do wrestle with it and people on the podcast you guys are out there have heard me wrestle with this and i'm not saying i had the right perspective but i have i didn't even know what the billy graham rule was until like a year ago so i'm not it's not like i've like been following billy graham or something but um i have in my life almost in just implicitly like not even like being that aware but it's kind of naturally practice a little more of that kind of social distancing from from women just because I've seen so many. Well, one, seen so many leaders fall to seeing just unhealthy emotional attachment sometimes develop three early on. More so I did. The line between being nice and being flirty was really blurry for me. And I think

I actually led people on in a wrong way. And, um, I, I, yeah, we were raised in a really conservative environment where, you know, protecting your ministry, put guardrails around the ministry, you know, make sure your secretary is 85, you know, and not 25. And, um, and even then, you know, don't talk to her, you don't know. Help me to rest. OK, why don't we start here? So I just kind of threw up all of you. But what what have you seen as a Christian woman? Some negative byproducts of guys who well-intentioned maybe want to protect themselves from falling into affairs or emotional attachments and

stuff yeah yeah that's a great question oh man uh yeah so as a woman i i feel like my views on this have really changed a lot too over the past you know 20 years um since college and uh doing more public ministry, doing ministry with other men, married men. Um, I, I hope as a church, my, I feel like ideally as a church, I would love for men and women to be able to do ministry together with a brotherhood and a sisterhood where we have, you know, when, when Christ talked about, you know, you're going to have, you're going to have families, you're going to have fields like in the body, you're going to have more than you would have had alone. And, and I would love to be in a place as a body healthy as individuals and doing business with our own sin and our hearts so that when we rub shoulders with each other, we can see each other

genuinely as brothers and sisters in Christ. Right. And to treat each other as such. And, you know, for me, I think and this ties into modesty, but we won't get into that yet. That can be safer later. But there's a temptation, I think, for men, no pun intended, to view women as temptations and to view them as a body and to view them as something they need to keep at arm's length rather than seeing them as an individual who has a soul and thoughts and ideas and all of that. At the same time, I totally validate your concerns over marriages falling apart, infidelities. The statistics are high pastors who you would think would know better who ends up, you know, cheating on their wives with colleagues. And I feel like there's a difference between having, you know, casual

interactions with a person of the opposite sex and being able to, you know, give a genuine hug. Yeah. It's different from having lunch every Tuesday and talking about the deep things of life with that person. Right. more brotherly, sisterly affection, the ability for, for a guy that I know, you know, in ministry to be able to give you a hug without like coming in with kind of the side, you know, like, and then I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend you, but I'm a hugger. And so, you know, that could be my own experience too. I, yeah, I would love, I see some of that. But at the same time, you know, my husband and I have just common sense rules to, you know, about how much interaction like I don't, as a general rule, text guy colleagues have, you know, lengthy conversations, I don't go out to dinner alone with them. Um, but in social settings, I, I have no problem, you know, being warm and friendly and, um, hugs or, you know, asking them what they think about things,

you know, I just, I don't know. I, that, that's my very raw thoughts there. And I, yeah. And I, and I, um, I can just i can just let just a fictitious kind of composite scenario okay like you typically most people get married because they they fall in love right and all these chemicals are going through your body and we we know just scientifically that your body can sustain that for about 18 months and yet we're just so trained that this is what love is i feel it all it's very just emotionally driven which doesn't mean it's bad i'm just saying it's not sustainable and it's not the shouldn't be foundational so then you do that you get married that all that stuff ends up wearing off and best case scenario you have a really good

relationship you're still attracted to each other you work at it you're aware that like those emotions that we first had that aren't there anymore we need to cultivate a more meaningful to end up you know that's best case scenario most marriages end up getting then you have a couple kids lots of fights you start being like man this marriage thing's really hard and then all of a sudden you're at work you have female colleagues i don't speak from a guy's perspective but it can go both ways you know you're at work you have female colleagues i don't speak from a guy's perspective but it can go both ways you know you're you're you're out in an environment where all of a sudden somebody else can very easily start to provide those same yeah chemically addictive like just i mean addictive in the real sense these these things that go through your body and the pleasure that you get just, just from that emotional connection.

Um, like it, and I'm not saying that I'm not saying therefore put all these barriers on and be a jerk, even though I fall into that, you know, throughout my life, you know, shut women out of my life, but like, I don't know, but to swing to the other direction and just be like, well, no, it's my sister in Christ and she has a soul and and it's not all about her body or like well yeah in in utopian you know after jesus comes back sure but at the end of the day we do battle daily fleshly impulses you know and it isn't for a husband or a wife to have a, to develop some kind of almost emotional bond with somebody of the opposite sex, even if it doesn't fall into a full blown affair. Like, I mean, I don't know, we could just go there. Maybe even that alone is like,

yeah, there's so I read a really excellent book while I was probably in the height of like traveling and speaking and being away from home. I read a really good book called anatomy of an affair. I'm forgetting the author's name right now, but it was excellent. Excellent. He over, I think 30 year career, like just does counseling with couples who have had infidelity in their relationship. And he kind of dissects it and kind of figures out what are the key ingredients that are common to each one of

these things. And, um, I learned a lot in that and just being aware of, uh, the danger signs for me and for my husband and our relationships that we have outside of our family unit. Um, one is like just understanding like perfect partner profile, like the type of person that you would be attracted to. And it's usually someone who is very much like your spouse, but who maybe is unmarried or seems more fun because they're not your spouse, but have similar personality traits, things like, he calls it a dangerous partner profile. That's what it was called. partner profile that's what it was called um and to just be aware that that type of person might be more um tempting for you if a couple other things are in line so one if you're having trouble in

your marriage like you described like if you're if you're fighting or you're not spending time together if you're not working at your relationship or uh if you're a lot, that's a marker. If there's a lot of stress and emotional stress, work stress, traveling. And so it kind of looks at those, it kind of becomes this trifecta of temptation, right? If there's a, I don't know, I feel like if we all kind of understood those key markers, it might be easier for us than to look internally and say, okay, in my situation, this relationship could be dangerous. And so I'm not gonna be as friendly or spend as much time with this person. But then to not make it just a one size fits all, therefore, I can never spend time with any person of the opposite sex, you know, because

of that. So it was interesting, I actually, while I was reading that book, was just very aware. And I could see relationships that I had, you know, in ministry or just personal relationships where I'm like, oh, yeah, I could see where if my husband and I aren't in a good place, that could be really tempting. And to be able to then, you know, set up some guardrails there and make sure that I'm being wise about it. So I'm just being honest with the fact that, yeah, certain kinds of people, relationship situations could be tempting. So let's not be naive to that. Or even like, I just learned recently that like willpower, it's, it diminishes

throughout the day or something. It's like, it's like filled up in the morning and it, and I don't know how much, you know, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know how much to believe or whatever. But I heard that, like, yeah, I mean, there is a reason why people typically do stupid stuff at night, you know, when they've been stressed out, when you add all these up. And I don't know, just being maybe aware of that, you know, late night drinks one-on-one with the colleague of the opposite sex might not,

not is not, but might not be the best. So I, I've been recently having a lot of female academic scholars on, on the podcast and their, their pushback has been and would be, she's like, okay, even that, I can see that. But all you guys, we're the only, you know, I'm the only one, two in particular. They're like the two women on faculty. The rest are guys.

So when all the guys are going out for drinks with each other, talking theology, talking about their work, building collegial bonds, we can't do that. Or we can we? I mean, I don't. Hey, bye, honey. I'm going out with the guys tonight we're gonna you know go go out for drinks and talk about our academic work like they miss out on that and i could and i genuinely i'm like well yeah that i don't like that either that's that's lame like how do we and part of it's there's such a mismatch you know there's 90 guys and only a couple women on faculty, so they don't really have the option of like,

oh, well, me and all the women female theologians will go out. So I don't know. That is tricky. That's a hard scenario. I have one similar to that in my own. I'm not easily offended, so I don't feel like I've been super hurt by it, but it's just, I have thoughts like, that's a bummer that, that I can't be involved in that discussion group because I love theology and I

love wrestling and I value, um, guys opinions because they differ from mine. And I feel like women's voices are unique. God, God designed his image in, in to complete his image in both of us. Right. And so we each bring unique characteristics to the table, filtering things through different lenses so that when we come together, we can have a more well-rounded view of who God is and how he's made us in our world. And I wonder, you know, sometimes those conversations are going when this particular group gets together around the fire with all men, if it would be different or if they would come to different

conclusions if they had other voices in there, female voices. Maybe not. Maybe they wouldn't. I mean, they're all really great guys who I'm sure you know talk to their wives that you know on the pillow and maybe get female perspective that way but um i don't know for me i don't and i would i would i think i've got an amazing marriage and i honestly that this i struggle in many areas having an affair is not one of like i to me i don't know and i don't want to be naive to that, but like, I, um, I happen to have a, I think a really good, healthy marriage, an amazing wife,

good friend of yours. I mean, she's a keeper. Yeah. Hopefully she'll keep me around for a while. Um, but I mean, I, I imagine, and I talk to people that have really just not that, you know, and I can only imagine that the extra there's already temptation, just the extra temptation. I don't know. For me, I've gotten around it. I just surround myself with women that are lesbians. And so it's all good. Kind of half half joking there. Kind of half half joking there. Yeah, it is an interesting dynamic that I spend a lot of one on one time with, you know, gay and lesbian people, you know, and that just does a wrench in this whole conversation, you know.

Yeah, it makes it more interesting. But let's talk about. Well, one more thing. I'm also like, should I be concerned about not just, so the reason why I brought up my marriage is like, okay, I don't feel like there's a lot of potential dangers in life. I want to have guardrails up or whatever, but this one, I'm not as concerned about me falling again. That absolutely could happen but should i be concerned about

filling a void in somebody else's life um in an unhealthy way or is that not my concern and i've often given the illustration of you know like you i'm a public person. I'll speak on stage. And as you know, who you are on stage is not the real you. It's like the Instagram you. It's the fake you. You know how to make the crowd laugh. You're saying something engaging. And you have this fake person up there that I can imagine for anybody on stage could draw a certain level of attraction. Like, oh my gosh, I wish my husband or wife, you know, was like that person. They have it all together, even though we don't have it all together. Like that makes me, or should I be nervous about somebody developing an unhealthy attraction to this stage person that isn't a real person?

Or is that not my concern? Should I give the hug to the woman that wants to talk to me afterwards you know i'm just being super raw and real i know i'm gonna get some emails for this you guys i truly i'm just trying to i truly want to navigate this well that's that's my heart please hear me in that and i feel like just that wrestling with that i feel like god always cares most about our hearts like it always comes back to that you know are you are you engaging people after an event because you want the attention or because you're genuinely trying to like meet someone where they are and give them the gift of your time and attention because that confers value to that person. Um, I think that's a big part of it. Uh, it almost, when you were, when you were

talking about that precedent hit me for the very first time. I never made this connection. You know, the whole debate on modesty, like where does a woman's responsibility stop and a man start? Like, this is almost the opposite of that, right? Like, because women are more emotionally connected, like to have, you know, you up there preaching in your boxers is not going to be as compelling for her coming up and being like kind and compassionate and all that. Right. So I feel like the answers to both of those are going to be somewhere in the middle of both. That's interesting. So you're saying modesty and we're dealing generalities here, obviously, but like most, let's just say heterosexual women are going to be generally more attracted to the, the person, the kindness, the more than just the physical, um, so that in as much as the person should be concerned about their own modesty for women, it might be more physical for men. It might be more emotional, personal, or I don't know. Is that. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think that's fair. But then also then, you know, like women don't know is that yeah yeah no i think that's fair but then also then you know like women don't have to go around in burkas just because it might cause a temptation for their male brothers right in the same way i don't think you have to withhold being a decent human being because you might lead a woman to get a crush on you so for instance i i have felt like very uncomfortable and not i haven't done like to affirm another woman's physical beauty hey you look so good you look so beautiful i love the way you did your hair that dress oh my gosh you are working like i mean that might be a little excessive but i mean i i don't i even though part of me is like i will notice it i'm like i almost

want to give them that affirmation i'm like like, I don't know. Is that, is that healthy coming? If I'm not their father or husband or boyfriend or whatever, or brother, maybe, I mean, I don't know. I'd like to hear it. Is that okay? Like in a tasteful way, like, not like you're rocking that dress, but just like, you look nice today, you know, like something like that. Or in a, in a way that a brother would, you know, like my brothers can tell me like, you look nice today, you know, like something like that, or in a, in a way

that a brother would, you know, like my brothers can tell me like, you're a beautiful woman. And I don't think that it's weird or awkward, you know, that they can give me a hug. And I don't think it's weird or awkward. I feel like it's so much, it's more than just that one compliment is how, how do you, what kind of a relationship do you have with that person? I mean, you might not walk up to a total stranger and say, Oh, you look really nice today, even though she'll really appreciate it. Um, but if you have, you know, more of a familiar relationship with someone, you know, that you have that rapport with them. I don't, I don't think that that's going to automatically cause her to stumble because you tell her she

looks nice. No, that's good. So that, okay. I mean, I, and yeah, that's why I asked. I had a woman in the store. Um, she was probably, she looked a little, probably old, maybe 10 years older than I am. And, um, I don't, so for my YouTube, I've got gray hair coming in all over the place. Right. And she, she said, um, what did she say? It caught me so off guard, I've got gray hair coming in all over the place, right? And she said, what did she say? It caught me so off guard. I've never heard anybody say this. And it was a really tasteful way. Really tasteful, wasn't it?

Again, she was, I didn't sense any kind of like connection happening. But she was like, excuse me, I just want you to know, you have like really good gray hair. Like you, like something like that. And I'm kind of a little self, I'm like, losing my youth so great when i get a haircut it's gray everywhere i'm like man i used to be 25 you know eating tacos um and i was like thank you but i was like are you flirting no i don't think you are just wow thank you like i actually yeah i don't know so that maybe maybe more of that can be good i i i tend to i i feel like we need a little more of just genuine compliments for

each other whether it's yeah i i'm sure you walked a little taller that day and took your hat off a little more because you're like oh i. I came home and told my wife, did you know I had awesome gray hair? Totally. No, I feel like, and again, it's going back to our hearts, right? Like if it's given with the genuine intent of being kind and of making someone's day not to be flirty, not to try to get anything in return I feel like that you know if they end up twisting that into something or or wonder if you meant more like that's that's really not your responsibility in the same way that you know if I'm wearing an outfit that you know I've put on

because I feel like it's tasteful there may be someone who may still look at me and think, oh, that's showing too much skin or that's too tight. Well, that's not necessarily my responsibility. All right, so let's talk about modesty. I know you only got a few more minutes. Okay. So I am a heterosexual male. I have three teenage daughters. male um i have three teenage daughters um before i was a christian um i was driven by just lust anything the little slightest little thing physically i would notice and in every single

guy i talked to that was also heterosexual or even in high school maybe faking it whatever it was across the board you I played baseball, athletes. I mean, most, the overwhelming majority of heterosexual males have incredible, they're so just, it's hard to describe to people who haven't embodied that kind of whatever. Now, as a Christian, it didn't go away. It's just now like, now it's a battle. Now it's discipline.

Didn't go away. It's just now, like, now it's a battle. Now it's discipline. But when I hear some women downplay modest – and so let me say this for the record. I might have to say this like 10 times in the next 10 minutes. I am not at all saying that women are to blame for a man's lust. That is 100%. I'm the moral agent.

I'm to blame. It's men. It is not on the other woman who maybe is dressing more provocatively. I want to make that super clear that nothing I'm saying is changing that. I'm just acknowledging the reality that most, again, most heterosexual males have an uncontrollable temptation that they battle. Even Christians. I was a good Christian. I am a good Christian. In the past, I used to be a good Christian guy. I was a good, like I really wanted to do the right thing.

And I'm telling you, it was a minute to minute battle. And I'm talking to every single other guy that's honest. It's exact same way. So now I'm raising three teenage daughters. guy that's honest. It's exact same way. So now I'm raising three teenage daughters and I would love your perspective here. I'm very honest with them. I just say, hey, look, when you're going around, just so you know,

almost every single guy is going to be undressing you with his eyes. I don't say that to creep you. I'm just saying those are the facts. Those nice Christian boys over here, those nice Mormon boys there, they're doing exactly the same thing. In fact, most of them are probably addicted to porn. And so they're envisioning even you in their sort of porn fantasy.

I'm just saying these are the facts. You can dress – well, they're still under my authority. They can't just dress however they want. they can't just dress however they want but like i i would um how you dress should in part be these decisions should be made with that awareness of the facts of the reality am i doing anything wrong with is that is that um and i'm not saying look i my girls they dress they wear middress stuff they wear bikini like we're actually not a very prudish family but we do we are concerned like hey that's a little too low hey that's too tight hey if you wear those spandex pants this is what every guy in the store is going to be thinking yeah yeah oh goodness all right i've got like a million thoughts and we don't have time for

all of them so i'm going to try to condense it into like the crash course of where I've landed after. Yes, both. Yes. I mean, I get it. I mean, I have enough men in my life, my husband, brothers, brothers like you are honest about the struggles that they're visual creatures that God has designed the female form to be intoxicating to a man. So as a woman, I want to be dressing in a way that is going to keep guys looking me in the eyes to the best of my ability to dress with dignity, to not be wearing things that are going to inflame, like not inflame, but just to, to make it really hard for a guy to look me in the eyes. At the same time, I'm dealing with a lot of young women who have such body shaming issues that some of them be able to put on a swimsuit no matter what size your body is, to enjoy your body for what it was made for. Go run, go play, go swim, go run in your run shorts, you know, without worrying that a guy is undressing you with his eyes and to be confident in who you are. So I'm dealing with these opposite ends of the spectrum where some girls just so want that attention and have been fed the lies that to be powerful as a woman,

you have to assert your sexual power over men, right? Because they, we have inherent power in our bodies to intoxicate a man. So we can use that to our event, to our advantage if we want to. And so we have girls on one end of the spectrum who are using that power, like a power tool and trying to get what they want, which is affirmation for who they are through their bodies. And then we have the other end of the spectrum who are so worried to show any part of their skin, either because they're, they feel that they're ugly or because they're afraid that they're going to be like just fodder for a man's lust. And so trying to find a healthy balance in the middle is really difficult. And I feel like it comes down again to where's your heart

and my job, what I'm trying to do through books like backwards beauty through crushed, I'm trying to help girls understand your perspective, what you just described of, this is how guys are wired. At the same time, trying to help them be confident young who don't use their freedom as an excuse to flaunt their bodies. But at the same time, don't take undue responsibility for someone else's sin. And I would say, and this is where, again, it doesn't take much. You can be dressing in a very tactful, tasteful way,

and it's the guy, it's up to him. You could be doing everything. You're not doing anything to kind of instigate that, and it's still a struggle. That is 100% on him. Even if you do show up in a bikini,

it's still, again, as a Christian guy, I'm the moral agent who needs to, it is my ability to treat you as, to not dignify you as an image of God bearer. But I think just being aware of what you said, though, that might be, as G.I. Joe used to say, you don't have to battle. You know, just being aware that you do have this modesty thing,

but then you also have a lot of insecurity, body shaming, internalized, you know, insecurities. And that's not, that leads to dark places. And that's not healthy. Just being aware of those two tensions, I think is really helpful rather than just, oh, every girl wants to show off her body and get attention from guys. No, no.

I would say that that percentage is actually smaller than the other way. And another layer on top of that is I will just be honest woman. I want to look cute. Like I just do. And so how I define cute is often by what I'm seeing in the media. And so when I see, okay, I'll just give you a real personal, real life example. In high school, I saw this dress in a magazine. It was super cute for prom. I saved up all the money I had. We did not have a ton of money in my family. I saved up.

I personally bought this dress because I wanted to be at my junior prom. The dress felt beautiful that night, got compliments. Okay. Fast forward a couple years. I wore that same dress to a formal function at our Christian college. And the following week got called into the office by one of my male professors who I don't remember the whole conversation. I'm sure he tried to be really kind. But what I took away from it was you are

totally just trying to cause your brothers to stumble. And so I, here I am thinking I look cute because it was in a magazine. I had no intention. I had no intention of flaunting my body at this event, not my intention at all. But I think for a lot of girls, we view cute as what we see on Instagram, as what we see in TV shows. And so the clothes that we buy, a lot of times they're going to reflect that, not necessarily just that we want to show off our body. So that's another layer to kind of add on to. Okay. Well, you're going to have a bunch of kids piling into your door in any second now. So,osh thanks um for being on the show thanks for being a listener and i just i love yeah i love that we can have this kind of open conversation because i uh i think a lot of guys are wanting to have this kind of conversation or scared to because everything's so angry and outraged today and

any kind of honest pursuit of truth if you get it wrong here or there you know you get kind of honest pursuit of truth, if you get it wrong here or there, you know, you get kind of smacked down. And that just prevents good conversations from happening. But, yeah, appreciate you and your ministry. Again, it's lifelovegod.com, lifeloveandgod.com. Check out Jess's books. She does, well, if COVID ever lifts, she is a speaker. So if any ministers out there want a really good communicator, especially, do you typically speak to youth groups or young adults or across the board?

Across the board, yeah. A lot of girls' events, teen girls, college-age girls, but have also done guys and girls, mixed crowds, things for parents, branching out as i get older okay yeah are you you're 40 uh hey hey 40 is a new 30 i'm 40 i'm proud of it yes yes i feel like we're both i mean yeah when me you and chris were in paco hanging out like i feel like we got youth in us paco's out climbing like 15,000 foot mountains every other day.

I mean, come on. We live and work at a camp that has young people around all year round. So I think it keeps us young. Yes, we didn't mention this, but Jess lives at Hume Lake. You've been there, I mean, off and on for many years. Yeah, yeah.

Most people know Hume Lake Christian Camps, at least if you're out in California. You probably got saved there a few times at least. At least three times. I know I did. Oh, I love it. Preston, thank you so much for having me on. This has been so fun. I appreciate you, brother.

Thank you. You too. And I look forward to conversations in the future. Take care.