Theology in the Raw - 836: Recovering from Sexual Abuse and Rape

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Monica is a survivor of sexual abuse and rape, and she talks about how people who have gone through the same kind of trauma can heal and walk a path of freedom. Monica is a speaker, mentor, leader, and the co-host of "Christian Sexuality: Conversations about Jesus, Sex, and Gender"--a youth curriculum on sex, sexuality, and gender.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and support the show for as little as five bucks a month and become part of the theology in the raw community. I have on the show today, Monica Zuniga. Monica and I met last summer when we flew her and another guy named Will Chung out to be the hosts for our project called Christian Sexuality Conversations about Jesus, Sex and Gender. And we needed we screened so many people for this role. We needed two godly, compelling, funny, yet not goofy, serious, but not overly serious, mature, but not stuffy people who can lead our youth through this comprehensive conversation about Christian sex and sexuality.

And after screening tons of people, we landed on Monica. Monica is the real deal. She is a up and coming leader and she's a speaker. She does a lot of speaking to youth and young adults. She has an amazing story. I'm going to let her tell it. Well, you could probably tell from the title, but what it's about. But I want to let her tell it.

I don't want to sort of, you know, tell it and have her retell it, but it is, um, yeah, it's, it's pretty moving. Um, and it's amazing that she is where she is today. Cause she's been through a lot. So please welcome to the show for the Theology in the Raw. I am here with my new friend, Monica. Now, you told me the different pronunciations. So Monica. I did. Zuniga? That's right.

Is that it? Did I get it? That's it. Yeah? Wasn't too white? No, not at all. It's perfect. Yeah.

Perfect. Any Zunigas out there will be very proud if they're listening to hear how you pronounce it. Because you want to say it's spelled Z-U-N. So I mean, you want to say Zuniga, but Zuniga. How's that? That's right. You pronounce it that that's right you got it so monica we we we go back a few months um yeah we're part of this video project that uh we hung out with to be yeah um that i've been doing and we spent i mean all day every day you and the film crew and everything together and i sat there there for hours listening to you speak into what will end up being lots of youth lives about Jesus, about life, about all kinds of stuff.

So thanks for being on Theology in Iran. Of course. I'm so excited. I love what you guys are doing. Such an honor to be a part of anyway. And so I'm excited to chat with you a little bit more about just my story and what God's doing and just the things that he's really using you to lead in the next generation. And so thanks for having me.

Yeah. Well, we're, I'm honored to have you on. So yeah. Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself and then, yeah, we do want to get into some specifics about your story. And we'll just go from there. For sure. So I am based out of Dallas, Texas. Texas girl, born and raised. Got to Dallas by way of running in college and from a small town outside of Amarillo, Texas called Hereford.

Maybe one listener on here will know where that's at. Um, but, uh, yeah, just grew up in the church, very stable home life. Um, and then just knew from a young age, I had a call to ministry in some capacity. And so my parents really encouraged that. Um, and after college, um, I had some Nineveh years and, uh, just ran from the call upon my life, ran from the Lord, which is a huge part of my story that we'll talk about. And when I came back to my faith and really pursued an authentic relationship with the Lord, that's just really where the call upon my life to really invest in the next generation. I believe in the power of storytelling to set people free, which is a huge part of the ministry that I do through leading women and speaking. And I just really believe in raising up the next generation for the gospel.

And I'm so passionate about lifting the voices of different people and creating space for individuals that normally don't have a platform in this Christian world. that normally don't have a platform in this Christian world. And God has just been really faithful to put me in places and positions with different organizations to be able to do that full time. And so my heart is for women, for the next gen, for really creating space for voices to be heard and for really individuals that listen to other people talk, really feel connected. Like, oh, I'm hearing

myself on the other side of the screen or I'm seeing myself where I'm feeling represented in the space of Christianity today. So, yeah. Awesome. Now you, let's go back to your high school college, well, your college years, because you had an experience that, and given the title, I haven't titled this episode yet as we're talking, but people listening, well, I've already seen the title. So I just, I remember hearing your story and the experience that you went through and how you've both the, obviously the negative ramifications of that, but then seeing the power of the gospel woven into that is just, it's stunning. stunning. Um, and yet also tragic, you know, it's, it's hard to, it's, uh, yeah, it's, I hate, I hate speaking about somebody's, you know,

tragic experience in positive terms, but in a sense, God has used this in your life in really powerful ways. So, um, if you wouldn't mind, yeah, I would love to hear you expand on that. Absolutely. So I w it was my senior year of college, so I was pretty much done and graduated and it was the summer, um, in between, I had a red shirt year for running. And so I actually ran one more year in my master's. Um, but it was the summer in between. And I was just had faced a lot of disappointment back to back in my life, and I did not really know how to handle or navigate through that disappointment. I specifically felt disappointed by God in certain areas. And so that's just something that is like a taboo thing to talk about in the church. And I felt a lot of shame for feeling the disappointment.

And I think I was just in such a low place in my life. It was disappointment with my personal life, with my career path, with my running, like so many things that really shaped my identity. And as a result, I just found myself partying a ton. And I was not the party girl. Like I didn't drink till I was 21. I was like, little Miss Perfect Christian girl growing up in church, like, was it virgin, like had never had kissed a few guys, but like, was just so committed to living my life. according to what I just knew the word of God said. And so in this season, I found myself going out partying in Dallas, different clubs and alcohol just became such an escape for me. It became a numbing mechanism became, um, in a lot of ways, um, I could just adopt a different identity when I went out, you know, I could become the cute hot girl that, um, I just never felt like I was. And so I just remember believing the lie that I had control over my life, that like I could go out and party and have fun and and be in these environments and meet people and have zero consequence. And I think that's really one of the first lies that like the enemy tells us about, um, and turning into things that are not God's design and, um, drunkenness like is what

I was doing, which is not God's design for alcohol. And, um, and so I knew it was right and wrong, but I really felt like I was in control. And so it was a summer night and I just remember hanging out with my girlfriends and, um, that night I just knew that something was off. Like I could feel it in my spirit, but I was in this just routine of going out, drinking, numbing a lot of the pain that I was feeling through drinking. And I was drugged by a guy. I believe he roofied me, put something in my drink. I remember going to

the bar that night and then I have no recollection of anything else until waking up on his bed and he was ripping my clothes off I'm 22 I'm a virgin I was in total panic and I just remember like telling him and yelling at him like hey I'm a'm a virgin. Like, I don't want to do this. Like, please don't do this. And, um, I was like calling out for help. I realized I was all by myself. Like there was no one there to help me. And, um, I ended up losing my virginity that night through rape. And, um, I didn't have my phone on me. Like I had nothing on me. And after, after everything, I remember just going into his bathroom, like sitting on the floor and just immediately agreeing with the lie that it was my fault. And that because I chose to deal with disappointment and pain in my life by numbing it through

alcohol. And because I was in this cycle of sin that I deserved the rape that like that was God's punishment on my life. And he didn't take me home till the next morning. And I just remember choosing that morning that I would never tell a soul that it would be a secret I would keep that I would that I would be shamed for it that no one would understand that every person that knew me and loved me and knew the Lord would judge me. And so I held on to that lie. And I held on to this secret that what had happened to me for about two and a half years, and the enemy really used that lie that no one would understand that it was my fault to keep me in

captivity during that time. And it, it really led me down a darker hole of more alcohol to numb the pain to numb the memory, it led to me just dating horrible guys, like just, I then began to believe the lie, like, if I just get married, and I'm not single, then like, I won began to believe the lie like if I just get married and I'm not single then like I won't feel dirty anymore like because I felt so dirty from the rape and I just was in this darkness all by myself and did not feel like there was a safe place for me to talk about what I was going through. And, um, that's a huge region, huge reason why I even accepted like working with you guys on this project is because I'm so passionate now about creating safe places for people to talk about their darkness and their trauma. Um, cause Crips could, because scripture says, want something that's brought to the light, like it loses its power.

And, um, it was, it was about, you know, two and a half years later when I finally told somebody, I told a friend and this friend happened to be a really trusted sound person who immediately was like, Hey, that was not your fault. You know, um, yes, you may have been living in sin. Yes, you may have, you know, drank and chose to go out that night. But God did not punish you by allowing that to happen. That's not God's heart. That's not his character.

It's not who he is. And it took me about a year to really untangle the lies that I had believed about God's character and the lies I had believed about God's character and the lies I had believed about what it meant to follow God. Like the, I believe that God was an angry father that was judging me, that was condemning me, that didn't forgive me for mistakes I had made. And I came to realize that the more I talked about it, the more I went to counseling, the more I was able to really process the trauma that I went through. I was able to see like God's heart really be broken for me in that. And like a true father would be devastated that his daughter had to go through something

like that. But again, as we touched on earlier in this conversation, God works everything for his good. Like he redeems everything. He makes everything brand new. And a huge part of my story and testimony is that I would not be who I am today were it not for that part of my story. I wouldn't be passionate about freeing other women in this way. I wouldn't, um, I wouldn't have this understanding of God's grace and love and know his character for myself. Um, and so I'm not necessarily grateful. I don't wish trauma upon anybody whatsoever, but I do know what the word of God means when it says that he works all things for our good. And what the enemy meant for evil, God will turn and use for good. And those things have become really testimonies and pillars now of how I lead and live my life.

And I leave my life with just as much purity as I did before I was a virgin. And I am made new in that. And I have such confidence in that. And I'm able to proudly say that now at 32 and 10 years later, be able to walk in that freely and not have the shame that I was carrying because of that experience and encounter I had. Thank you for being vulnerable and honest. And I could only imagine how your story has helped others to have the courage to talk about their own.

I mean, I've seen some percentages on people who have been through either some sort of sexual abusive situation or full on rape as in your case. Um, is that, do you come across a lot of people that have, have been a victim and just have never had space to talk about it? Is that so much more common than we realize? I mean, it's so common. I think one of the things that I've been open to, like the reality of since my story and like really creating space for other women to share is that I think I read a while back, it's one in three women are a victim of sexual abuse of some kind. So it's very common. Women, women in the church are very quiet about it. So I found that if I create an environment where women are open to talk and I share my story, I have almost half the room come to me and talk to me about their specific story that they've never told anyone. And even more eye opening is like I think a lot of people assume I think it's more common now, but especially when I first started sharing my story, a lot of women experience trauma, obviously, like child abuse is a huge one for women. But beyond that, a lot of pornography for women now is a huge issue. And being exposed to that at a young age, and not really holding them captive and a really shameful thing that they're extremely ashamed to talk about,

because it's really more of a man's issue in the church where I have found the more I've talked about, um, my story and my journey, I've seen a lot of more women open up about their struggle with porn. Um, and the percentages on that are much higher than you would think. Um, I don't know the exact numbers, but I would say every time I have been in a room, there are several women who have had a long time struggle with it, similar to men. And it just is something that again, is a taboo thing that we assume women are not struggling with, um, or, um, but I've just found like those areas are very common. Yeah, no, I've seen, I, again, yeah, I don't have the percentages in front of me, but they're

about twice as high as what people would expect. I want to say something like 60% of guys and 40% of women, it's something like that. Um, either, you know, have habitual porn use or some sort of exposure. And even it's hard to measure too, cause you're dealing with people, their self testimony. And also, you know, we, as we, on this project that we worked on, you know, distinguishing between periodic, habitual, and addictive porn, porn use. I thought that was helpful.

I know we talked to Jason about that and yeah. And that, what that does to you, especially for a girl who her first exposed, well, anybody, but I mean, their first exposure to sex, sexuality is porn. I don't, that's crazy. I mean, that's like, and from what I've heard through studies, I have to qualify that, um, you know, it's getting more and more violent more and more degrading more and more just dehumanizing that kind of porn so when somebody sees that as this is what sex is um and then either guys expect that from girls or girls feel like that's what sex is so i need to do these things that's crazy um yeah yeah um so um when someone comes to you and says, Hey, I have my own story and here's

what happened. How do you walk with them through that? Um, yeah, I think it really depends on the context, um, of where she's talking to me and, and where we're able to really interact. But the women in my circle and influence that have really come to me and struggled with these things, you know, I obviously want to provide a safe place and be a friend to them, be a resource for them and mentor for them. But one of the things I highly recommend regardless is some sort of trauma counseling and something for them to really work with a professional to walk through the trauma that they've been through. Because I think we, as something that I've found is that as Christians,

at least how I grew up in the church, and some people may resonate this who are around my age, or even if you're younger listening, the church really does do a great job about lining like this is like the black and white areas of God's word. Like this is what it means to follow God. But the gray areas, which I know you touch on a lot, which we've talked about of like, well, what about like when I am exploring my sexuality? Like what do I do about that? Or what if someone takes my virginity from me and now I've opened up this floodgate to sexual desire that I didn't necessarily want to have opened? You know, what do I do about that? Or I'm even like, I think I'm attracted to the same sex. What do I do about that? Or if someone of the same sex abuses them as a child and then they're struggling with those thoughts, you know,

a lot of times when something is done against you, against your will, specifically, I think we don't, in the church world, I had this perception of like, well, I sinned, like, I viewed my rape as sin, not as a traumatic experience where my virginity was taken from me against my will, like, and that is what rape is. And it's an abusive traumatic experience for people and I because I grew up in the church viewed it as well this is sin God hates sin therefore he hates me like God's word is black and white about sex before marriage and I had sex before marriage like I sinned like I'm sinful and so I usually try to communicate that in the most clear way of like separate your sin from the trauma, like, and know that like because of sin and brokenness that's entered the world, sometimes sin gets put on you, but it wasn't sin'm willfully getting drunk and going out to party, I'm sinning. Like I'm choosing to sin against the temple that God's given me and against his word that says to not drink to

drunkenness. You know, when I am, when I had my virginity taken from me, someone was sinning against me, like using the brokenness of the world that broke me and affected me. But I wasn't participating in that sin. I wasn't willfully trying to sin in that way. And so I always encourage people to really separate and identify like, if it's especially, especially physical and sexual abuse, like, it's trauma against you and your body, it's a product of the brokenness of our world. And it's trauma against you and your body. It's a product of the brokenness of our world. And it's so important to be able to process that with a professional to be able to have a safe place to talk about things. And many times for me, it was a stranger for many times, it could be family members or neighbors or people that they need or stepfathers, you know, like stepmothers, you know,

many people that you're connected to, so it'd be really tangled to be able to try to communicate about that if they're still in your life. But if you're old enough and able to see a professional, and if not to really identify and clearly, you know, just clearly make it clear to them, like God's heart was never for this to happen to you. And God um, God's heart and desire like is to protect you as a father. And this is his character. And I just highly encourage them to study the word of God for themselves, to study the character of God for themselves and to know that who he is, is not someone that's trying to, um, like he's not trying to hurt us, you know? Um, and so I think that that main distinguishing factor of like, if something is, if you're abused, like that's trauma

against you and that's the brokenness of man, that's the sinful nature of man, but that's separate than you willfully sinning. And so I think for me being able to see that helped me really forgive myself, helped me forgive my abuser, helped me really like forgive God. Honestly, I was angry at God. I thought he made it happen to me. I thought he was angry at me and being able to go to counseling and process that to really help me process just a lot of the anger and the emotions that I was feeling that I just didn't feel safe with anybody in my world at the time. And so many people will talk to me because I'm safe in the moment because of my own vulnerability, but I may not be able to walk with them for a long period of time to process the rest of that trauma.

So, yeah. How have you seen women in particular who have been a victim of sexual abuse? What have you seen that due to their what are the lingering effects to their view of sex and sexuality? And I'm sure it's not a one size fits all, but I can imagine that. Um, and I'm sure it's not a one size fits all, but I can imagine that, um, I, at least I know with, um, hurt people, hurt people, you know, that phrase that people who have been victims, sometimes they can kind of embody that, um, or, or it manifests itself in different ways. Have you seen that in the people you've walked with or in your life? For sure. I think, I think the biggest thing is that it just creates this wavelength in your brain. At least for me, it did. And the people I know

that that's how men receive love is through, um, is through sex, like long story short and through sexual acts. And I had never felt that way about men before, like guys I had dated, boyfriends I had in high school and college that were good guys. I never felt the pressure to do anything sexual. Yet, once that happened to me, and once I felt like that's how all men were, it really just created that lie in my mind. And I've noticed that with other women who are victims as well is if you're not really working on your healing and you haven't fully been freed from that, you will like fall into this lie and believe that that's what love is like that in order to show affection like even if you don't want to you need to have sex with this person like in order to show that you care about them like

doing sexual things that maybe you don't want to do and um I fell victim to that in relationships after and had no desire to do it but just just really felt this pressure of like, well, this is what guys want and this is all I'm worth. And, um, I need to just do that. And so, and I think it also, like, I don't know how many studies have been done, but I've seen this with girls who haven't worked through things. I've seen this with myself is that like, I would tend to attract these horrible guys that did want that, you know, like that was what I was drawn to was almost the same, like characteristics of an abuser. Um, because that's what I felt I was worth almost, um, was like, well, this is my value now. And so I'm only good for like a guy that's like right here but like

I can't be good enough for someone that is going to respect me like going to value me um and it took time for me it really did I would say it wasn't until I was probably 27 28 probably 28. I mean, but I really felt free from that and felt confident and felt like I don't have to, like my body is not a means to an end for someone. And I have more to offer in a relationship. And, um, I think that that's, again, just a lie that gets planted. And I've seen that, especially with younger girls who were of abuse. Um, a girlfriend of mine that I discipled for years was abused as a child. And, and up until like a year before she got married, like met her husband and got married. Like she just thought that's how all men were and just almost threw herself on men that she dated because she was so used to that kind of

like that's what you're for like that's that's what you're made for and so um there's a lot of lies tied to it um that I think again take true, time to untangle and unravel that, um, I found I'm very independent. I'm very much doing on my own, but I realized this is something I can't do by myself. You know, um, I need to get the proper help to break out of the mindset that I was in. What's crazy to me is, is, um, I mean, mean, given how much, how high of a percentage it is that women have gone through this, and especially if you're raised in the church, that there's so much extra shame surrounding it. There's few spaces, if any, to talk about.

How are we not having these conversations more? I mean, if one third, you're you're okay, you're a pastor, you're preaching a sermon, you got a thousand people in front of you, half are women. So 500, one third, we're talking 150,

maybe 200 of the women have been through something as tragic as this. Most of whom have never worked through it. All of whom are going to have lasting, or if they haven't worked through it, have lasting damage and effects. Damage is the wrong word, but like it has ripple effects in their life. Like that, it seems kind of urgent

that we somehow create space in the church to have these conversations. How have I never, I don't know. I don't know. I agree. No, I 100% agree. It's too taboo. And I know a lot of friends who have walked into marriages not working through this, and it's affected their sex life and marriage tremendously, because they're not able to know intimacy apart from abuse. And so these are also things that I don't think people really talk about and have gone through the healing of understanding. And I think one of the things that I'm very well aware of is that like it is still hard for me at this age to disassociate intimacy with abuse. It is just hard. Like I wish I could say that that was the only

time I was raped. I was raped a couple more times in a series of the next two years by other men. Yes, I had it. It was multiple times. It was like a cycle that I was in for a season of just being around the wrong guys. Like I'm telling you, it was like, I was stuck in this thing. I felt like I was drawn to them like moths to a flame unknowingly, but it was like the trauma that I was not dealing with, that was pushing me closer to these types, this type of man. And that seems safe, but like, wasn't safe. And so I think people also are maybe unaware of the reality that like one rape could turn into more. And it is something that that I mean, most of the women I know have been raped once have been raped more than once, like, and, and it's something that just

psychologically really messes with you. And so I feel totally free. I don't feel like that person. I know I'm made new, but I still am like very aware of the fact that intimacy will look different for me in marriage and will be something that I know could potentially still trigger me because that's what I associate into what I've like known intimacy to be with. Whereas like other people may know intimacy to be like this great, beautiful thing that they had a great experience losing their virginity. For me, that has not been the case. I mean, I've never had intimacy with someone and felt like it was a good thing. And so I think those are things to you that are, I know other women who have been victims of sexual abuse, who entered into a marriage, who had horrible sex lives, like who a friend of mine who ended up getting divorced last year and their sex life was a huge part of their issue. But a lot of it was due to her past trauma too, that she just never worked through and Christ following,

love the Lord, good people. I do believe there is a huge missed opportunity within the church to provide avenues for people to really work through the healing of that and to have safe spaces to talk about it because our world is so sexualized, it's out of control and, um, it's everywhere else in our face, you know, and there is, I think even watching porn is trauma. It's trauma to your mind to then make you agree with something that's not true in God's design. And so if we're really trying to live like according to God's word and to be free from these things and bring heaven to earth, I think part of that conversation has to involve the reality of the sexual brokenness that we live in. And yeah, it's I never thought about it from this angle, but the such high percentage of women who have been victims.

It makes me think, too. What about the same percentage of guys who are doing this? Like, are there a lot more abusers walking around than we realize like it's like i mean for sure it's not just one guy doing all i mean that's crazy to think and and then i think we'd be naive to think oh but that's outside the church i don't think so man like yeah no no no it's not unfortunately and especially as as guys maybe have been a victim themselves of something again hurt people hurt people they have their own story of have been a victim themselves of something, again, hurt people hurt people. They have their own story of probably being a victim at some point, many of them at least.

So they haven't healed from that. And then they might turn in and do it to someone. That's that cycle. I just feel like this is urgent. I mean. Yeah. No, I think it definitely is. I do think more and more people are.

I think things like the Me Too movement has helped in some way. But I do believe the sad part to me is that the world is moving in this direction, but the church to really lead in this conversation to recognize that like the me too movement is all about like, let's bring men down. Like they're all going to fall. And are these men bad people? Sure. Are they living in sin? Absolutely. Are they Christ followers? I don't know. But when it comes to the church, like I know there are men who I know personally from just stories of people that I know who have had incidents with men who are on staff at churches, you know, who who abuse them in some way and hurt them in some way. If those men are on staff at the church, like the church can find a way to address it and still honor the identity of a man and allow him to get help and to still honor the woman who dealt with that trauma and walk with her through that. And I think there are ways that the church can lead in it to really bring wholeness to the body and honor one and one another versus the narrative of like any person who does this is the worst person and they deserve to lose everything. And in reality, like, yeah,

that's very intense and extreme. That's our culture. But the word of God says we're made in God's image and that every person has inherent value. And the word of God also tells us that sin entered into the world and made it broken. And we all are innately born sinners. And some of us fall privy to things that we would never imagine we do. And I think that includes people that abuse women sexually. And I don't think they're too far gone from God's like redemptive power and healing. Just like you said, it's probably something in their past that led to that. That's making them act out this way or just a situation that they've had and that they just did. You know, they just maybe one off did it and it became something they continue to do. But people who hurt people are in a lot of pain and the pain stems from a deeper root that we just, um, don't always address. And so I think there is a way to biblically do it beautifully and to provide space and conversations for that. And I think, I mean, that's a huge part of my passion and why I do what I do is I want to

always create that space and allow people to feel that they're not an anomaly or that there's not anything wrong with them um and that they can openly share and and still receive the like the acceptance that i think we're all afraid we're going to be rejected for uh when it comes to these topics uh monica what are some, I just thought of this right now, what are some triggers, for lack of better terms, that you experience, let's just say specifically in the church, church culture, Christian culture, that might be probably shared by, again,

the one-third of women who have been in some kind of sexual abuse situation, what are some things that church does kind of maybe just ignorantly blindly that is, is maybe not helping, um, the situation. Does that make sense? I mean, is that, is that a valid question? I think one of the major ones is like, um, I wouldn't have said this when I was in high school because I was a virgin, you know, and I was like saving myself to a marriage. Yes. is like, um, I wouldn't have said this when I was in high school because I was a virgin, you know? And I was like saving myself to a marriage. Yes. But like for people who have endured sexual abuse when they were younger, I have heard that that's very triggering to like go to a youth service and it'd be all about purity. Like it's a purity weekend. And we're

talking about saving yourself for marriage. Well, actually I've already like been sexually abused. I'm not a virgin, you know, like, and now we're having this talk about saving myself. Like I have heard so many women say like the shame that they have felt in that conversation and around that. And like, they can't say like, that's where it really starts. So like if, if these young girls are victims of sexual abuse and they're going to a youth group and it's all about purity and saving yourself to marriage and they're having conversations. And when I was younger, it was like, we're going to sign this thing and commit ourselves to like wait till we're married, you know, to have sex. And I participated in that. And I look back and I'm like, there were definitely girls. There was no way there were not girls who were sexually abused that were in that probably awkwardly signing this petition and don't even have the room to say, Hey, I actually am not a virgin.

Like something's happened to me, you know, like, um, I think those things, um, sexual abuse, like I have a, uh, not a rare story in rate, but a rare story at my age, you know, I was much older and it happens to women much younger. And, um, I think that that's something that I'm, I'm grateful that my childhood was preserved in that way. But at the same time, um, the, the women I've talked to, it happened when they were young. And so I think having those, um, purity talks, those purity weekends, I think really creating space to say like,'s, um, I think it's just the unspoken things of like, you know, feeling like you have to be at a certain place to be successful, um, to be married. I think single moms who have maybe had a kid out of wedlock might feel like

they're not qualified for certain things because they're not married or in a relationship. And I think that, I think too, a lot of things that can be triggering as well. And this is a huge part of your ministry, which I love is a good friend of mine. He grew up struggling with same-sex attraction, grew up in the church, like a very creative guy, like, uh, is, is, you know, walking in freedom of that now, but growing up just felt like there was no space to talk about it and felt shamed for even like wanting to do stuff with the girls and wanting to like, um, be a part of, you know, decorating the space for church and not moving tables, you know? Um, and he was shamed and looked down upon. And, and when he did try to have a conversation with

someone in the church about it was instantly told that's a sin, like there's something wrong with you. Um, so that's not around abuse, but it's still a triggering thing. I think it led him down a path that was really negative for a lot of his life and could have been avoided if there was just a space to have a conversation about it because he was different in his expression. And so I think, too, there are times when kids who have been abused are probably going to be more affectionate, you know, maybe touch in weird ways because that's what they think is normal. And so I think having more awareness of that with staff too, and not just saying, Hey, don't do that. You know, um, don't hug me like that. You know, don't, um, don't touch her that way or don't touch him like that. You know, that's, that's good and all, but there's a deeper issue probably there. And a lot of the things that I think are communicated can feel like shame put on you when really, um, that's only feels like shame because you're maybe in some, some sort of abusive thing or wrestling through something that no one knows about. And, um,

so I think there just could be a heightened sensitivity in that. I mean, just in general, like when you're a leader, a Christian leader, and you're giving a talk, I mean, this is true for so many different things. And I've had to learn just the hard way over the years. I mean, you know, I'm a white straight guy and I forget and who hasn't been a victim of abuse, who hasn't had, you know, I've had, but I've had a fairly vanilla life. Um, and it's taken me years to understand that there's a good percentage of people out there that have not had that kind of, uh, trajectory.

So, I mean, they're just that general, especially if you're a leader, if you're speaking in front of people or leading people, when you look out at the sea of faces, just assume that there's a lot of just diverse brokenness out there and pain and trauma and people that haven't been healed from stuff that they need to be. Well, Monica, thank you so much for your work that you do. I'm so excited. I just love the fact that you are there, that you're this next gen, like you're helping this next generation to follow Jesus more faithfully. And my generation, I'm one generation ahead of you, sort of. And yeah, we've made a lot of mistakes and I'm glad to see people like you learning from our mistakes. So thank you learning from our mistakes.

So thank you for what you do. Thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability. And yeah, I really appreciate it. I hope this conversation helps many people out there to maybe find healing in their own life. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Preston. Thanks for being on the show. Take care. you