Theology in the Raw - 845: #855 - Behind the Scene of Christian Publishing

Episode Date: February 25, 2021

Don Pape is the master Yoda of Christian publishing. He has over 35 years of experience working for some of the biggest Christian publishers and has also been a literary agent. Don is responsible for finding a relatively unknown pastor from Simi Valley named Francis Chan and signing him to a book deal. In this conversation, Don and I talk about what it takes to be a successful writer, the pros and cons of Christian publishing, the role that having a platform plays in landing a book deal, what to do if you feel called to write a book, the kind of financial advances that new authors should expect, and many other things related to the industry. 

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you are listening on the podcast that I just want you to know, this is also a YouTube channel. And if you're watching me on YouTube, hi, then that was dumb. If you're watching YouTube and you're like, oh, I'd really just love to listen to this and not look at you, then you can go to my podcast, Theology in the Raw and check it out. If you want to support the show, go to the show notes. You can check it out. You can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support the show for as little as five bucks a month to keep the show going. And yeah, if it's impacted you in any way, would appreciate your support. I have on the show today, a good friend of mine, Don Pape. Pape. So Don and I go back to 2011 when I, in a flurry of events, I ended up co-writing a book with Francis Chan called Erasing Hell. Some of you remember that book and maybe that's how you

first came across my name. Well, Don was the publisher of that book. In fact, Don is the guy who, several years before that, found some relatively unknown pastor in Simi Valley named Francis Chan and said, I think this guy has a voice that needs to be heard. And he signed Francis to a book deal to write a book called Crazy Love. Probably many of you have read it. Don is the master Yoda of Christian publishing. He has worked for several different publishing houses. He's been a literary agent. He now is, he's starting to kind of a new thing called Pape Commons. You can check it out. I believe it's papecommons.com, but the link is in the show notes. And Don, he's just, I love Don because he's so honest. He will talk

about the pros, the cons, and everything in between when it comes to Christian publishing. He's an amazing person to go to if you have questions about writing. And so we even talk about that. Like if you want to write a book, what should you do? Should you self-publish? Should you try to get a mainstream publisher to look at it? And if you do actually get a contract, like what kind of finances are we looking at here for a first time or a new author? And then we talk about just all kinds of stuff related to Christian publishing. This is a different kind of conversation, a different topic. I've never done this before on the podcast, but I was like, man, I think there's a lot of you out there who want to be writers or you would like to know what goes on behind

the scenes in Christian publishing. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Don Pate. All right. I'm here with my, I could say my long-term friend, Don Pape. Don and I, we met way back in 2011. At a pub, Fashion Island. Yeah. Wait, what? It was a pub, an Irish pub. An Irish pub. Yeah. In Irvine or something or somewhere down. It was Fashion Island. That's right. Oh my gosh. So yeah, we've been, I mean, I refer to you, I don't know if I've told you this, but you're kind of like the, you know, the master Yoda of Christian publishing.

You've got a long journey, you've been an agent, you work for several different Christian publishers. So, yeah, why don't we start there? Why don't you tell us why you got into publishing and give a few minute summary of the last 25 plus years or more um about your journey in christian publishing and then i want to get into some of the nitty-gritty about what that looks like and what you kind of hope it could look like uh if you had it if you if you had your finger on the the button uh so to speak so yeah give us give us a little snapshot of your journey. Well, I mean, really, I started out some 36 years ago, actually, by I was on InterVarsity staff in Canada. And at the time, InterVarsity Press actually had a publisher and a warehouse in Toronto. And we could make extra money.

I worked on high school staff with InterVarsity. And you could make extra money going up to the warehouse, picking, packing and shipping boxes. So, you know, getting orders out the door and that I caught the bug. in public in not in publishing in poli sci as a foreign diplomat or something and God got a hold of me and and that all changed but anyway got the book bug at in a IVP warehouse and then from there I I had a stint I was a graphic art artist designer I worked for a graphic arts company I did full-page at this is back in the day pre-Mac. And then, you know, I went from that, from graphic art design to being a book buyer for a ministry organization. And then after that, for a chain owned by the Mennonite Publishing House called Provident Bookstores back in the day in the 80s and I guess early 90s.

Since the Mennonite Publishing House closed them back in the day. So I was a buyer for that chain. And then that led me to being a marketing director at David C. Cook in Canada. And while working there, I left and did my own marketing company for Waterbrook Press and Cumberland House and Howard publishing that got me that brought me to the US Waterbrook Press brought me down to Colorado originally was supposed to be six to nine months as a consultant and then I got on full-time with them and we've been in Colorado now 20 years so So I worked. I was a publisher. I acquired one of my career highlights was we acquired at Waterbrook Herald Shaw Publishers. And in acquiring them, we acquired a number of books by Madeline L'Engle that if you've read A Wrinkle in Time, Walk on water. So that was one of my highlights in my publishing career, getting to work with Madeline Lingo and her granddaughter, Charlotte. Then I became publisher at Waterbrook.

I left that for a stint as a literary agent, as you indicated, and represented a group of authors. That was fun. And then left there to go to another publisher here in town, all publishers here in Colorado. We didn't want to move at this point. This was home. So I went to David C. Cook. And, you know, we – our sort of big launch was acquiring Francis Chan, who was a little-known pastor from Simi Valley, which is kind of where we connected at some point, launched that. And then from David C. Cook, I went over to a smaller imprint, Navigators NavPress. So NavPress is the publishing arm of the Navigators ministry, and was there for about

six and a half years. And then I resigned, I resigned that position this past fall. Um, my wife and I, through the COVID experience, working from home, just really felt being called out of that. Um, and so we launched January four, we launched Pape Commons, which is a literary agency. Um, it's a gathering of voices. I'm calling it, it's a little, a literary agency. It's a gathering of voices. I'm calling it, it's a little, a literary agency with a difference. It's community over commodity. I really want to work on, whilst I'm a literary agent and brokering, you know, manuscripts, I also want to really build community. I think writing is a lonely existence. I think for Christian writers, it's even lonelier. And then I just want to build community.

And really, Preston, to help Christian writers get out of what I'm calling the evangelical bubble. We're preaching to the choir for the most part and fostering a really robust bestseller industry. and fostering a really robust bestseller industry. But I think there's time and a place, particularly now for Christians to represent Jesus a little bit better without any political affiliation and speak to our times. So whether it's fiction or nonfiction, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited too.

I mean, you bring a wealth of a diverse array of experience to that. So I'm excited to see I mean, you, you, you bring a wealth of, a wealth of a diverse array of experience to that. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see what that turns out. And I want to return to the whole evangelical bubble in Christian publishing and would love to have you kind of help us understand what goes on behind the curtain, so to speak in Christian publishing. But first, why don't we, you know, let's talk about just what does it mean to become a writer? Or specifically, I know a lot of people in this audience listening maybe are writers or aspiring writers. What's your big picture advice when somebody comes to you and says, Don, I think I want to write a book. How do I do that? Where do I go from there? What's your response to that question? I'm sure you've gotten that a lot over the years.

Well, I'll do it on air plug. Read George Saunders' book, A Swimming Upon in the Rain. That's a great resource. He's a master class writer, a prof on writing. So that's a start. Donald Moss, if you're a fiction writer. I mean, I'll cut to the chase. Just write really well. There's a lot of crap out there. And I jokingly tell authors, I'm all about fine wine. And what I mean by that is there's a lot of Kool-Aid out there, instant stuff. You pour a little water and a little flavor and you get orange Kool-Aid or strawberry Kool-Aid. There's nothing like a beautiful bouquet on a Merlot, right, or a Chateauneuf-du-Pape. I have no money gained from saying that. So, yeah, I just encourage writers to hone their craft. writers to hone their craft. And, you know, what I mean by that is sometimes, you know,

it might mean taking a BFA course or degree or an MFA. It might mean, you know, 42 rejections. And then finally, the good one. It might mean just really writing, you know writing what Anne Lamott calls bad – what are they? First drafts? Yeah. So I just – I see a lot of poor writing out there. Yeah. Christians and non-Christians alike. So I'm not picking on just a Christian. But I think we get away with Christians writing poorly, and I just – I feel like we should have a higher standard. Yeah.

Why is that? I mean I – from the – from somebody who's slowly learned the craft of writing. It's taken me many years. I didn't aspire to be a writer until 15 years ago. So it's – I've been playing catch up on the back end of what it even means to be a good writer. And I still in no way consider myself, um, a good writer. I'm, I'm okay. I think, but I'm, I'm, I just got done with The Great Gatsby and To Kill a Mockingbird, some of the classics. I'm like, these are beautiful, creative writers. I don't see a lot of that in the Christian world.

How does that Kool-Aid get through? Explain, help us understand the environment where so much Kool-Aid is being produced, if I could put it like that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I often say some of my favorite Christian novels are written or published by non-Christian publishing houses. You know, I think of Lee Fanger's Piece Like a River or John Dalton, Heaven Lake and Gilead, you know, some really beautiful writing. I jokingly said to an editor recently, you know, if Bonhoeffer or C.S. Lewis was starting out today,

they wouldn't have a hope in hell. Why is that? Why? Because probably C.S. Lewis wouldn't have an Instagram account. And, you know, Bonhoeffer is not big on Facebook. account and you know bonhoeffer is not big on facebook and you know much you know so much i hear it over and over again is well your author doesn't your writer doesn't have a platform and it's it's based on you know how many facebook uh followers you have how many means means can you create you know the twitter following and so that's become our, our kind of, uh, ground level judgment is Preston.

If you have 52,000 followers on Twitter and you have a great Instagram account with pretty memes, um, we'll get you a deal. But if you're a really good writer, man, it sucks to be you. I mean, it's been crass, but it is, it is, it's the challenge that's before us. And, um, I feel like, you know, I am being crass when I say that, but I feel like there's a, there's a time and place. And I've, that's what I'm about is like, I'm saying, yeah, that's all good. And that it's reaching the masses. But I really want, you know, my mentor, Dan Rich, often reminded us, you want to publish a book that's going to be longstanding, that's going to have the long tail, that 25 years from now, people are still

talking. And, you know, you look at that. That's Madeleine L'Engle. It's C.S. Lewis. It is Bonhoeffer. It's Tolkien. It's, you know, a number of those authors that you go, yeah, they've withstood the test of time. People are still talking about them and reading them. And, you know, I'm not going to mention names, but there's a lot of Christian books out there on the market that five years from now, heck, 12 months from now, probably won't exist. So it is a tension. I mean, here's, help me wrestle with this because, you know, Christian publishers, you know, obviously the assumption is they want to put out good content and each publishing house has their kind of theological boundaries and

how they, what they see is like beneficial for the kingdom of god at the same time it is a business so if a megachurch pastor with all these followings comes and says hey i want to i want to put this sermon series into a book and the publisher's thinking like well this can easily sell 50 000 copies just by his own platform like i it still is a bit like they the publisher needs to pay the bill so i don't i don't i used to be a little more cynical like more idealistic like how dare you you know put out something that's fluff like just put out good writing but it's like well they still have to exist so if nobody's gonna buy it or appreciate it for 10 years like then people aren't gonna pay the bill so is that a live tension that you have to wrestle with or do you feel like – That is – that's very much the tension is – OK. Because not only does the publisher have to pay the bills but you, the author, need to pay bills.

So I can't ask you, Preston, OK, tell your wife, hey, you're going off for the next six months and you're going to hang out at your writing cabin in the mountains of colorado and write an amazing book and by the way we're not going to make any income uh right you know so you so you have to be duly compensated as does the publisher and so but i i think where the tension has has occurred is that you know it's gotten to the place where a lot of money is being paid out that is never recouped. Uh, you know, that's what we call the advance, which is kind of tantamount to a loan. So, you know, I do a book deal with you and I say, you know what, I'm going to loan you $30,000. And then when I make that money back based on the sales of your book, then you'll start to get a nice revenue, the royalty stream. And so the bigger the loan, so to speak, the more books we have to sell.

And so you look at Barack Obama's book that's $35. $35, well, there's a reason that book is $35 and they're trying to sell because, you know, it was a seven figure advance that the publisher wants to recoup. And, you know, what I often say to authors when we're talking about book deals or even, you know, advances in that, that I think it would be much better to get a reasonable advance and get subsequent checks for royalties than to get this one big lump sum and then never see another dime you know like so what essentially i mean by that is the author over gets overpaid you know just a million dollars and their book sells 20 000 copies um so so anyway it's perspective but it very much is the tension of the author and the publisher world about how much money we're going to pay for this book and not lose our shirt.

And then, you know, go ahead. Well, I want to come back to the advanced thing. Just to give our audience kind of a ballpark figure, say you're a first-time author. You've got a good idea for a book. You've got maybe 10,000 followers on Twitter. Maybe you're a pastor. Your church is like 500 people. You could probably sell a few hundred copies on your own. The publisher's like, no, this is a good book idea.

I think, I think we want to publish it. What kind of advance and royalties are we looking at for somebody like that? So I now see everyone leaning in to see what number I'm going to say. And I can see the entire agency community panicking and also published authors going, well, I didn't make that much money. So at the risk of offending everybody that's listening, I would say, I mean, given that scenario, first-time author, they bring something to the table. You know, you could be as low as a $10,000 advance, as high as maybe $30,000,

$35,000, depending on the publisher. It all comes down to the publisher saying, I want to take a risk on this author. And whilst I may think it's this dollar value, Whilst I may think it's this dollar value, I also think it's a dollar value in investing in Preston. So I think, Preston, your book project is probably worth $15,000. But I also want to invest in you as a writer and as a spokesperson for our company and having someone on the roster. So I'm going to overpay. I'm going to pay probably another $10,000. So I'm going to pay you $25,000 for this property because I'd really love to have you on board.

And then, of course, it escalates. If you're a pastor of a megachurch and you're bringing 5,000, 10,000 people that are going to be your consumer, it escalates okay yeah so so when a mega church pastor um and andy stanley uh i'm blanking on past you know greg rochelle yeah mark patterson there's a number of them out there that are you know when they have a huge platform like that they're and you don't need so i'm not let's just leave a names because I don't want to give people the impression that I know how much they got.

But for somebody with a really big platform, aside from the quality of the book, I mean, they're in the six-figure advance. That's pretty common for somebody that – what did you say? Or even seven figures? Yeah. And let's pause here and pray that they're all tithing. Right. You might want to edit that part out. No, I don't want to edit anything out.

If you are a large pastor, and of course, as you build on your career and you're now in book two or three, then you're building an audience, right? So you've now gone from 40,000 people to maybe 50,000 or 100,000. Pastor Mega. We know that we have a built-in congregation of your 20,000 or, you know, your listeners, you know, and some of these authors, you know, think of them as global influence. And so that allows the publisher, you know, to take foreign licensing and publish. You know, I think back to Crazy Love with Francis, where that sold rights to Korea and Germany and a variety of different countries. And so that all is part of your earning back your advance. Yeah. Yeah. So in my more cynical moments, when people come to me and say, hey, I want to write a book, can you hook me up with David C. Cook or Zondervan? In my more cynical moments, my next question isn't even what's your book about, but like, well, how many followers do you have? What kind of marketing collateral can you set forth?

Otherwise, these publishers probably aren't even going to look at your book. Is that cynical or is that pretty truthful? No, you're not being cynical at all. I mean, I have a number of authors that I'm working with right now, one in particular who's a pastor of a church that has, I think, three or four

congregations, but they're not a mega church. Amazing content, but every editor reviewing it saying, whilst it's a good book, this beloved, beloved pastor doesn't have a big enough platform. So, you know, he doesn't have the cynical at all. You know, I think every all the publishing houses have established these benchmarks or even mandates, I believe, where it says, OK, editor, if you're acquiring this person, they need to bring X to the table. from publisher to publisher. I don't know. I'm discovering what that is.

But every publisher is going to be different. And to the credit of the editor, every now and then, an editor is going to say, you know what? I'm going to ring this author. I'm going to ring this author up the flagpole. I really believe in them. And I'm going to try to wrestle sales and marketing to the ground and say, hey, guys, I'm not asking too much here. But can we take a risk on this person?

Because I think they have something to say. And long term, they could be a player. You know, they could, you know, while they, you know, maybe are just entering the publishing field and maybe they only have, you know, a thousand people listening to the podcast. I think there's potential here. And P.S. their writing's not half bad. I mean, that's almost word for word what you told me back in 2011. I mean, I was a no-name author. Francis knew me. We did this book and then i did one two two more with david c cook when you were um when you were there and that's you said hey i i think you even told me that or maybe i heard from you you know they're like you're like i think i want to get behind this i like his voice i think he has something to say and yeah yeah and i smile because i mean just recently I saw that your publisher is bringing those books back out with new covers.

And in the case of Fight, for example, a new title. And you're right. I mean, I vividly remember meeting with you in that Irish pub in California. You were driving one heck of a clunker. And I thought, if nothing else, we need to help this guy buy some gas for this car. But, but, but no, I just remember meeting with you and thinking you have a fresh voice. And, you know, like I look at the book fight that that that's that wasn't being talked about. And it was a fresh approach to nonviolence.

And, you know, I mean, certainly I think the team at Cook are very wise in bringing that book out again, particularly our current state in America. So it's very much a dialogue or a discussion that needs to be brought to to to the marketplace again so yeah well the so the question i always get is what makes a book take off you know so you have a a new author you're like i think there's something here you know like maybe francis back in the day or like what is is there a kind of a magic formula to this? This is a really good book. And they might not have that platform, but then all of a sudden this thing just explodes and takes off. I mean, every year there's always those books like, wow, I did not, we did not think this would just catch on. Like, is there a magic formula or some things you can

sniff out or foresee, or is it just pure luck or providence, I guess we should say? Yeah. I mean, years ago, I worked for Steve Rubin at Doubleday, and his line was, you know, publishing is blind ass luck. And, you know, of course, you've got Christian listeners, so we won't say that. We'll use that word you use, providence. And it really oftentimes within the context of Christian writers, it is God's hand on a project. But I have to say word of mouth is still amazing. You look at, for example, Paul Young's The Shack that he self-published and ultimately Hachette picked up. But that was word of mouth. Wait, he self-published that?

He self-published that? Yeah. When it first came out, it was self-published. And I remember being in Vancouver with Bill Reimer at Regent College and him saying, you probably haven't heard of this guy, but this is an amazing read.

And for example, here's what Eugene Peterson says about this book. And it was it was on the recommendation of Bill Reimer at at Regent that I said, oh, I got to pick this book up. And I win blown media, I think is what it was called then. But, yeah. And I think of Francis, you know, when Crazy Love came out, he had spoken at a number of passion events, and my son had heard him speak at a chapel at Azusa Pacific. And that's how I found out about him was my son Jeremy called up and said, Dad, I've just heard this amazing pastor from Seamy Valley. You've got to check him out. Jeremy called up and said, Dad, I've just heard this amazing pastor from Seamy Valley. You've got to check him out, you know.

And and so there was this kind of pent up demand like people had heard. Like I remember hearing him speak in January at the Staples event. Like there's a passion event in L.A. downtown. And everyone was hearing him speak, you know? And so there was this, by the time the book came out in May, um, it hit and there was this demand for it. And while, whilst we were kind of in a new era with COVID and online sales and all that, it's still people talking, you know, still a book getting a buzz. And, you know, like, have you read The Vanishing Half, for example, or, you know, have you read, you know,

the new whatever, pick a new topic. And I think that's what happens is people pick up on a good book. Now, the flip side is true, people pick up on drivel as well. You know, there's you know, there's you know, it's the masses. So, yeah, but but I think, you know, I look at in my career years old, came out of the advertising market, and she wrote this cute little story set in North Carolina. And it was word of mouth. You know, she back in the day, again, you know, she traveled to the bookstores and talk to people. You know, that that we're kind of restricted by that now, but authors that are willing to work hard, that's the other thing. You really have to – you know, I think there was a day, Preston, where an author could give their manuscript to a publisher and then kind of walk away to their hermit life while the publisher brought it to market. Now the, the, the author has to do, you know, podcasts and vlogs and, um, zoom calls to small groups, meeting in homes and all that. Um, and I think the reality is you just have to recognize that I have to do a little bit more work as an author than just write the book.

And some, some authors, you know, you can name the authors. Some are way out there in terms of their marketing skills and others are novices. But it does involve you talking – like I remember you speaking at a Q event. for the benefit of you going to an event in Denver, it was for more people, more of an audience to build around you and know this guy is talking about, you know, nonviolence and pacifism in a fresh new way I'd not heard. So, yeah. Yeah.

That's honestly for me as a writer, that is my number one. Dislike or like the thing I really wrestle with and it's i think francis and i do see eye to eye and a lot of that you know like the whole idea of building a platform makes me want to punch myself in the face and yet um do i i always have to remind myself do i believe that i'm writing truth uh in a fresh way in a way that's going to impact people, that's going to further the kingdom in some way? And the only answer is obviously yes, otherwise I wouldn't put thousands of hours into doing it. So if I believe that this is good for humanity and the church, then shouldn't I want it to fall into the hands of as many people as possible?

And the answer is yes. So that whole idea of building – it's just that when I see other people try to build a platform, it just irks me. So I never even want the perception of that. It sounds like I'm virtue signaling now. But I mean I really – and my publishers know that about me. And they're like, hey, Preston, I know you don't like this, but can you maybe – don't be afraid to tweet it once in a while. And so I've been trying to do more of it without looking like an idiot. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I think there's some natural ways to do it, but you're right. It is – it doesn't come naturally to most authors. I'll never forget Preston. Francis, he was on I think the cover of Outreach magazine. He was speaking at the pastors conference down in San Diego. And as a publisher, we were all set up. We had the books stacked high and watched them fly kind of thing. And he speaks and then says, yeah, I'm not going to come out there and sign books. And there's a line of like 250 pastors waiting to shake his hand and get him to sign their crazy love book. And, you know, we had to say, sorry.

And his motivation is right, but at the same time. It was very pure. But it does make him look a little bit, somebody could take it the wrong way, or maybe something he said or did just radically changed somebody's life. And the thought of like, just saying, thank you for God's work in you, you know,

you impacted me. Like that's a good, there's, there could be a lot of pure motives all around there that sometimes don't work out. Um, what, what are your thoughts?

Yeah. What are, you said it, it doesn't come naturally for most authors. For me, sometimes it comes almost too naturally for some, though. Their Instagram feed is like every other picture, the book they wrote or whatever. Look at me. It's a little too much like, are you primarily a marketer and secondarily an author? And the answer is probably yes. primarily a marketer and secondarily an author or like, I don't know. And the answer is probably yes. What are your thoughts on self-publishing? Um, I've had people ask me, Hey, I want to write a book. Do you think I should self-publish it or try to go for a traditional publisher to take it on?

Yeah, it's, it's becoming much more. In fact, I just had breakfast with someone this morning and they asked that very question and I said, you know, I think it's appropriate. And it depends on the person. You know, I think there are some authors that, you know, maybe may have a pastorate or a ministry where that's their focus and their channel. appropriate to contact, uh, uh, you know, a place that can self-publish their a thousand copies or 500 copies. You know, you've got some people who are in ministry who, you know, are speaking regularly to a variety of people, whether it's, you know, retreats or churches. And so they have, they have that built in platform and it's a natural thing. so yes i i i kind of see that for authors that have an opportunity to do a bigger platform that's your last resort so let's see if we can find a bona fide tyndale house or waterbrook or you know thomas nelson to publish you, because I think your platform merits a team behind it that not only can publish it and edit it well, but will take it to market. And by that, they'll get it to

Amazon and Barnes & Noble and independent bookstores, but also globally, so that they'll be able to license it at the London Book Fair or Frankfurt or have the inroads to reach out to those markets that typically self-publishing doesn't allow or offer. And so but I will say it's self-publishing 10 years ago, 20 years ago, when you self-published, it was sort of like, oh, poor boy, you couldn't get a deal, right? And it showed, you know, the covers look, you know, poorly executed and, you know, it was published on Newsprint or whatever, you know, the quality has improved. And I think the outlets that are offering those services are giving better editorial services. And also, you know, they're making sure your book gets on Amazon or wherever. So I think the writer has to decide, A, do I want to go with a house that offers all those services and opportunities?

Or am I willing to invest? that offers all those services and opportunities or am I willing to invest? The other thing about self-publishing I should just mention is you have to invest upfront some money. Like you're going to have to pay to buy your book and to buy the editorial service and design element and all that. So when you go that route, you have to say, okay, I'm willing to invest X number of dollars. Tell us about the royalty difference. Like say you go with a traditional publisher, the book sells for $20 a pop. What's the author getting there compared to if he self-publishes it?

Now, obviously, it's going to sell – well, maybe people don't know it's obvious. But I mean if a traditional publisher takes it on, it's going to sell twice, three times the number of books, but they're also going to get a lot less on the royalty. So on a $20 book, what does an author get traditionally published? Actually, sometimes, to be honest, you may get with a traditional publisher. And truth be told, the publisher may only sell 3,000 copies copies and you make 15% of, you know, net. And you, so you do the math and go, man, if that's all I'm going to get, if I bought my book and sold it, I'm going to make more money because I know I can sell000. So you almost have to sit down and do a spreadsheet and say, okay, if I do it this route through a traditional publisher, I will get this.

The other thing is how much are you willing to do? Like, you know, you have your wife and family. So you have sort of a built-in warehouse staff that can pick, pack, and ship. Truth be told, though, nowadays you can just have it on Amazon, and they print on demand whatever you need when you need it. So it really is an exercise in mathematics, to be honest, and say, okay, I would get – let's say you get a 15% royalty off net from a publisher, and then I would get cost plus from printing it myself. And you can dictate, you see, like, you can say, okay, this is a $20 book that, you know, cost me $7. You know, know like you just have to do the math and figure out okay what is reasonable

for me to sell um and who do i do i want my audience to be global and by that i mean a traditional publisher versus kind of more more regional um through and by that i mean more focused on your ministry and and who your audience is So it used to be like a dollar a book. It was kind of the round figure that we would say an author would get. Books are going up in price. Is it still like one to two bucks a book at the end of the day? Yeah, roughly. I mean, we always, that, you know, that's kind of the formula you say, you know.

And I think you could make more money. Um, I'm, I'm hesitating cause it's going to vary from publisher to publisher. Um, and, and honestly, if you're print on demand, it's going to vary from, you know, what is the arrangement you made with lightning source versus believer press or, you know, any number of independent, you know, print on demand houses. you know, any number of independent, you know, print on demand houses. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what, yeah. So you, you recently left the evangelical publishing world. Um, why, why, why did you make that move? I mean, I, uh, we talked a little bit offline, like what, what would be your, what, yeah.

What's your, this, this adventure you're going on? like what do you hope to see and what would you maybe in a theoretical world love to see different maybe in evangelical publishing? Yeah, I mean you used the word adventure. That's the word my wife used. I remember when we made the decision, Ruthie saying to me, let the adventure begin, you know, like we were heading off for newfound territory. I was scared spitless and she was enthusiastic. So off we went. And I think. Well, I don't think it was the recognition, Preston, you know, kind of the culmination of COVID working from home. Black Lives Matter, the election that became so polarizing and

realizing, you know, kind of stepping back. And I'm also Canadian, born in Brazil. Like I just, I realized I have a global view, like my world is much bigger than, you know, what I've been calling the evangelical bubble. And so I just thought, you know, I really respect the Christian publishers. I really respect the navigators of which I was a part. But for me personally, my world was so much bigger than that. And, you know, one of my great desires for this new adventure is to find other like-minded people who can speak as people of faith, people of, you know, people who would say, I'm a Jesus follower, and I want to speak to the broader world that speaks outside of this ghetto or this community we've created. And I can write a really great novel that will go alongside of Kristen Hanna.

Or, you know, I want to see a psychologist speak to the general audience about trauma as a Christian. And, you know, I read a lot of books. And, you know, I read a lot of books and, you know, I read a leadership book written by a Buddhist or, you know, like Stephen Covey is a Mormon. And I just want Christian writers to write to a broader audience outside of this wonderful community called the evangelicals. But I think that many Christian writers, many Christ followers, have things to say about marriage, about divorce, frankly, or trauma, or whatever, that a general audience, like my neighbor, can read that. And so that's my heart heart is that I can align myself with writers who want to write to a much broader audience. Here's a question I have. I've wanted to ask you this for a long time.

I don't think I've asked you this or at least maybe thought out loud in front of you about this. But so most of the books I read are by non-Christians. I actually don't read a ton of theology anymore. I feel like I've done a lot of that. And there's so many interesting books in psychology and sociology that I like to read. Now, some of the books I read, like you mentioned trauma. So The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. This is not, it's not a hard read, but is an in-depth thoughtful like he deals with really tough concepts i think it's like a 300 plus page book i'm reading another book called thinking fast and slow by daniel kahneman this is a 400 plus page book small font that's incredibly in depth

um it's a slow read this book has been out for almost 10 years and it's still a new york times bestseller uh body keeps the score is like ranked number 50 on amazon or whatever which is super super high as you know why here's my question why is it that in the secular world very long very intellectual books be our best sellers look at the best seller list i mean most of non-fiction are really intelligent books but when i if i was going to pitch a you know 400 page really intellectual book to any christian publisher and okay so maybe my audience isn't big enough whatever but i don't think anybody they say, can you get this under like 200 pages, you know, and write and tell stories? And what, I mean, what does that mean?

Like, how come that doesn't work in the Christian world or does it? Am I missing something here? Well, you know, you and I talked earlier about, I tend to skew to fine wine and we put out a lot of Kool-Aid. It's easier to generate, right? You just open a little packet, add a little water, and boom, you got it. I'd rather work with an author for a little time and get out a fine bouquet of Cabernet or a Zinfandel, you know, rather than a strawberry-flavored Kool-Aid. And I think, I think the Christian market for the most part has tolerated or given us Kool-Aid. And, you know, again, I reference my mentor, Dan Rich, who always said, you know, I'd far rather put out

books that will stand the test of time. And, you know, I was really privileged, for example, at NavPress with publishing the likes of Dan Allender, you know, or Jerry Bridges, whose books were, you know, 20 years old, but, you know, put a new cover on it and find a new audience. You do talk about word length. I do think we have a new generation emerging that has a shorter attention span. And, you know, there's all kinds of research about what online, you know, of this stuff has done to our brain and how we're, you know, short circuiting it. So as a result, you know, where we used to read 70,000 words, we now only can tolerate 40. But it's interesting. I still look at some of the books that are coming out.

You look at how kids were reading Harry Potter, and everyone said, well, kids don't read. But they're reading big books, and I think if they're well-written, an amazing story, it doesn't matter to the page count um but yeah i i think um i think you know i don't want to just disparage the christian industry but i think we have somewhat kowtowed to the lowest common denominator and said we're going to give you kool-aid because kool-aid sells and fine wine is harder to sell and takes longer, you know, like, but sometimes, you know, you've got to keep the wine, you know, the grapes in the warehouse for five, six years. And, you know, you see that pattern where in Christian publishing, oh, that author just bought a book out last year and now he's got another book. Now

he's got another book and Now he's got another book. And, you know, someone might want to say to them, you were a one book author. Names. In the UK, they used to, yeah, they used to look, in the UK, it's very much like some of the most brilliant academic theologians it's one book every six years or something and they kind of look across the pond at us americans and they kind of in their very british way kind of go hmm never an unpublished thought you know and um that was my my phd advisor simon gather call that was his one parting piece of advice is preston, don't overpublish. I don't know if I've actually taken it.

I've probably written too many books. I mean, looking back, even Francis said, I don't want to write a book until I'm 40 years old. Until I have some lived experience, what am I going to – should I even write a book? It was when he was 40 when he wrote crazy love but um yeah that's yeah it goes back to the tension we talked about earlier about publishers wanting to make money and so if your book takes off the publisher is immediately going to turn around and say what else can you write for us yeah and that that is the tension and you know it takes a brave publisher to say hey let's sit back and not generate another book let's wait you know for the grapes to ferment

and bring out a book in five years rather than five months so but it definitely is the tension it's it's that wire. books written well, that are thoughtful, that are engaging, that are in-depth. I just wonder if there is more Christians who would purchase and actually read those things. But maybe, I don't know, maybe again, like you said, the audience is so used to, you know, 188 page books that are basically kind of written sermons, which I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but you don't see that in a secular world. You don't see Malcolm Gladwell or whatever, writing a book that's just kind of his speech is compiled. Actually, I don't even know. Maybe, maybe that is, but I mean, you see actual writers

putting a ton of time and sometimes creating a very long book, but it's, um, yeah, I don't know. um, yeah, I don't know. Um, yeah, I, I, I think there's, there's, um, uh, I mean, I think you see some, you know, the, the general market is so much bigger than the Christian market. So inevitably there's going to be some books being churned out. Okay. But yeah, you know, you look at the bestseller list for fiction you know the the vanishing half um ready player two um the mystery of mrs christie um the invisible life of addy larue or um yeah you know those books i would dare say that the authors you're not going to see another book from them next year you know um ready player one when did that come up five years ago i i can't remember but um you look at some of these books and you know like a book like i'm seeing on the bestseller list here american dirt that's been on there for probably

a year maybe um i don't know how long it's been on but it's been on for a while and so there it stands the test of time. Yeah, yeah. Do you have any favorite, are you allowed to say your favorite Christian nonfiction writers that you feel like are actually not just Christians with truth to say and a good platform? But actually, man, this person is an actual writer. They're a gifted writer. Yeah, Yeah. Well, I mean, I, for a little Canadian content on this broadcast,

I think both Mark Buchanan, who is in, he was a pastor in British Columbia on the Island. There is now a prof at a Bible college in Calgary. Okay. Mark, anything Mark Buchanan writes is beautiful and, and thoughtful. Um, I think Ann Voskamp is another beautiful poetic lyrical writer. Yeah. Um, and, and that, you see that in like a new writer that's just releasing for me, uh,

that I think I i really see potential um is uh joel clarkson uh wrote a book called sensing god and um yeah i'm hesitant to start going down the list because i i i'll say someone and then you know and Andrew Arndt will say, why didn't you say my name? Well, Andrew also is a favorite of mine. So, but, you know, I will say this. I'm excited about some new voices. And my prayer is that the marketplace would give space for new voices. You know, that's one thing about the Christian publishing, you know, and again, I won't say names, but the Christian publishers, you, I mean, you go to the list and

you go, okay, you know, it's that person again, or that person again. And rarely do you see, you know, some new names populating that. And I would just love to see, you know, opportunity for, And I would just love to see opportunity for the Andrew Arntz and Daniel Grothys of the world to get that opportunity to find their niche hundred thousand copies. They're kind of largely carrying the, the, the company, you know, then you have mid-level, mid-level authors. I probably put myself in that category. I'm not going to sell a hundred thousand. I might sell 20 or 30 or, you know, maybe something could go somewhere, but it's, you know, and then you have kind of beginning authors that are just breaking in. Is, does a, does a publisher have kind of like an approach? Like, okay, let's keep our high powered people happy. Let's, you know, that's going to carry us, but they're kind of more exploring like, man, can some of these mid-level people, I just wonder, is this the book that's going to really boom or this unknown author? I think there's something here. Let's, let's throw,

let's invest in this person and see if we can, you know, maybe, maybe i think there's something here let's let's throw let's invest in this person and see if we can you know maybe maybe maybe there's like 10 new authors and maybe one might take off like is is this how publishers think the way i've kind of explained it or yeah all the publishers are on their knees praying by their bedside i mean what i think it's last year I read an article in PW or somewhere. They indicated that the mid list was shrinking. So the A-level authors, like you mentioned, the Danielle Steeles, the John Grishams, the John Eldredges and the Max Likados, those were sort of there. They were expanding and in the mid list was shrinking.

And so those B-level authors just weren't being able to crack into that, you know, A-level market. And, you know, with the demise of, you know, particularly Christian brick and mortar, you know, you don't have the what that word is, you know, the Christian brick and mortar, you know, you don't have the, what that word is, you know, the discoverability people. So, you know, it's either word of mouth or trusting Amazon or a website to say, okay, you need to read about this guy kind of thing. So that's where, you know, your smiley face on Instagram or Facebook pictured with your book is really important because when you realize 65% of consumers are finding you here and not in a bookstore, you know, in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, that is the challenge, you know. But my hope is that publishers will give, you know,

But my hope is that publishers will give space for mid-listers with the desire or the hope that, as you indicated, one of these 10 has yes uh some of these a-listers now are going to be great backlist for publishers you know 20 25 years from now but we do need fresh voices yeah that's good that's good i love hearing the story about jen hatmaker who i think wrote like five like and she's all she's a beautiful writer brilliant writer creative funny and she's all you know but like it took her like five or six books and then all of a sudden that one just absolutely took off but that's i think that's an example of somebody who is like she always had it it's just the first five just right that didn't she have about five books they were just kind of like exactly and you know one took off but then you know for example at nav press we were able to bring one of her one of those five back out and it went from

selling you know in the two-figure number to like you know a hundred thousand units and so, yeah, so there's but it requires, you know, I think John Grisham's A Time to Kill, his first novel, you know, it was rejected by 20 some publishing houses. And I think a lot of it's interesting. There's a number of stories like that. But it took a editor, you know, willing to champion that voice and say, I think there's something here. And guys, I know that it's a big risk, but let's take it on Preston. And let's see if we can't make him. And that goes for a lot of authors. that goes for a lot of authors.

It was that editor, Jason Kaufman taking a risk on Da Vinci Code with Dan Brown and saying, or Steve Rubin saying, there's something here, we're going to risk it and we're going to bring it to market. Don, thanks so much.

You've given us so much of your wisdom and stuff. And yeah, thanks so much. I mean, again, I really like you're, you're my kind of go-to person whenever I have any questions about writing or publishing or anything. And so thanks for sharing with us on theology and the raw. I really, I've been looking forward to this episode for a while because I've never done anything like this. It's usually a

theological topic, a controversial issue, but I've never actually had somebody like you on that can give us the inside look at publishing. So check out Pape Commons. Your website is PapeCommons.com? Yep. Or what's the – Yep, PapeCommons.com. And my son is the proud designer guy behind it. I don't know how to do these things.

So I gave him the content. And, yeah, we're up and running. And my phone is ringing in the background. Are you looking for – if anybody is like, oh, good, I'm going to contact Don because I got this book idea and maybe he can look at it. Are you inviting? Are you soliciting proposals or no? Is it more through an agent? I'm not soliciting, but I never say no because there might just – I don't want to say no to that diamond in the rough.

But I would simply say if you're going to contact me, be serious about the craft and have something – like don't be noodling. Be serious and say, hey, I've written this 100,000-word novel. I'm just kidding. Can you read it real quick? Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much for being on the show.

My passion is to discover new voices and become the steward of that. And, you know, I think back to you and I, we've had fun doing stewarding your writing career over the, over the years. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I really appreciate it, man. And hopefully you can work together sometime again. There's always been good food involved too. Oh man. If you ever, yeah. If I ever, if I'm ever traveling to a different city, uh, yeah, I know I can reach out to you and say, tell me the best breakfast, lunch, and dinner places in this place. You'll have a list ready to go. That was our last time, actually.

Breakfast in Nashville. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, I don't want to take any more of your time, Don. Thanks so much for giving us your hour plus of your day. Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't take any more of your time, Don. Thanks so much for giving us your hour plus of your day. Yeah. All the best. Good to talk to you. Take care. you