Theology in the Raw - 846: Purposeful Sexuality: Ed Shaw

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

Ed Shaw is Associate Pastor at Emmanuel Bristol and part of the editorial team at Living Out. He loves his family and friends, church and city, gin and tonic, and music and books. He is the author of Same-Sex Attraction and the Church: The Surprising Plausibility of the Celibate Life (IVP) and the recently released Purposeful Sexuality: A Short Introduction (IVP).  Ed is attracted to the same-sex and has committed his life to celibacy and the ministry of the gospel. In this episode, we talk about his journey as an SSA Christian man and minister and about the themes unpacked in his latest book Purposeful Sexuality. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Ed Shaw. Ed Shaw is the author of a few books. The one that I'm most familiar with is Same-Sex Attraction and the Church. Subtitle is The Surprising Plausibility of the Celibate Life, which raises lots of questions. And Ed is a Christian who does experience same-sex attraction. He's also a pastor. He's the co-founder of a brilliant organization in the UK called Living Out. Living Out is very similar to the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. I would consider Living Out like a sister organization to the organization that I help run. And Ed is a co-founder of that organization. They continue to do just amazing

work addressing pastoral and relational theological issues surrounding sex, sexuality, and gender in the church. Ed also, and we talked about this, but he's coming out with a new book called Purposeful Sexuality, a short Christian introduction. That book releases in the States on March 23rd. I believe it is already released in the UK or soon to be released. But Ed is just a kind, humble, wise person. I just, I've learned a lot about Ed from his books and just by observing him over the years. He's just, I mean, truly is like a model Christian. He makes no claims to be perfect, but I just, I think he's really just a wonderful human being. And we talk about a lot of stuff related to sex, sexuality, desire, marriage,

church, community, and all that fun stuff. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and become part of the theology in the raw community and get access to premium content. I have lots of stuff that I write about and talk about on theology in the raw that is only available to my Patreon supporters. So if you want to support the show, patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month. Also, we did have some audio issues or internet issues in this podcast. Oh my gosh, I almost lost my sanctification. My internet cut out twice during this interview. So I think it got cleaned up to the best of our ability.

So if it feels a little glitchy in a couple of places, that's why. But the conversation was too rich to ditch. So the show, as they say, must go on. And the show did go on. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one with my friend Ed Shaw. I've known Ed for a while from a distance. I've read his book, Same-Sex Attraction in the Church, The Surprising Possibility of the Celibate Life, which I want to unpack that subtitle. But we've gotten to know each other over the last year plus or so. I had a conversation or two and just excited to have you on the show.

Thanks for being on Theology in the Raw, Ed. It's great to be with you. Why don't we just start there? Same-sex attraction in the church, the surprising plausibility of the celibate life. So you're trying to tell me that living a celibate life is a plausible vocation. Is that right?

Yeah, because I mean, that's basically it because I found that most people think in society today and actually in churches today, so many people think that it's not plausible to live a celibate, single Christian life. Whatever your sexuality, it's just not a doable thing. And that basically, if you are single, you're going to have a pretty miserable time. And a celibacy is going to do nothing but damage to you as a person. And the whole idea of thriving as the human being or living life to the full as a human being is all about finding the one other person that's going to complete you,

all about romantic relationships and singleness sucks. I think it's what most people think. And most churches sort of never teach it quite as explicitly as that, like that. You never have a sermon on singleness sucks, but the impression that we give people is happiness is found through marriage and singleness. Well, really it's for Jesus and for Paul and for nobody else. Yeah. Well, what do you say to people that say, well, yes, certainly some people are called to

celibacy, meaning they're kind of introverted. They, you know, would rather be by themselves. You know, if they're in a relationship that just kind of sounds like a miserable experience, and that's evidence that they're called to it. but most people aren't called to it and to force somebody to live a celibate life and you've probably heard it worded like that um you know that that's oppressive and harmful i'm sure you've heard that and wrestled with that what's your uh response to that argument yeah so some people would respond to me and say, well, it's great for you, Ed, that you've got the gift of singleness, which they sort of treat as like this sort of spiritual superpower that I've been given, which means that, you know, sexual temptation or

loneliness or anything like never an issue for me, because I've got the gift. I mean, I don't know where that, well, it seems to come from a misreading of 1 Corinthians 7, where some people seem to misread 1 Corinthians 7 and say there's the gift of marriage, there's the gift of singleness. And then there's a lot of people are in some sort of no man's land, where they're sort of trying to work out what they've got. And if they're not happy with singleness, they must be about to receive the gift of marriage, which is going to be the answer to all their problems. Whereas my reading of 1 Corinthians 7 is that Paul's basically saying, there's the gift of

marriage, which you've got if you're married, there's a gift of singleness, which is what you've got if you're single. And there's no sort of magical superpower of a gift of singleness that somehow some people get and other people who don't get are on the journey to marriage. That sort of teaching has left loads of single people really unhappy because they think, I haven't got the gift of singleness and I haven't got the gift of marriage. God seems to have sort of left me in a no man's land, sometimes for the whole of my life. If you're single, you've got the gift of singleness. If you're married, you've got the gift of marriage and enjoy that gift.

That's almost word for word. I think what I said in my book, People Be Loved's, that's how I've understood the passage as well. Do you, do you know the, the, the literature on it, the commentary, cause I haven't done a deep, deep, like looking at all the commentaries, whatever. Would you say that that's a pretty well accepted understanding of Paul in the, in the kind of academic literature or do you know much about that because that it just to me it just seems like a plain reading like that's clearly what

Paul's saying but I always want to double check that yeah I mean I certainly that isn't it the last time I did some work on it I was really convinced I the people that have helped me are Al Sue his surname HSU wrote a book called The Single Issue, probably about 20 years ago, published by IVP in the States and in the UK. And he's really helpful on it. I've also been, I've been chatting with friends about the misinterpretation of the, you know, when Paul talks about, you know, if you're burning with passion, you should get married. And again, that's been used by a lot of people to say, well, if you're, if you're burning with passion, you should get married. And again, that's been used by a lot of people to say, well, if you're struggling with sexual temptation, the answer to sexual temptation is to get married. I think if you look at the text and who Paul is advising to get

married and why, in a context of the Corinthian church where they seem to be thinking that sex and marriage themselves are wrong, it makes sense. But it's not all-time um call to anybody struggling with sexual temptation that the answer to it is to get married that would seem to be a misreading of the text but also partially disastrous because we all know that marriage isn't the answer to sexual temptation that you know marriage doesn't stop people from burning with passion i mean it's actually i found out pastorally that often people sometimes struggle with sexual temptation more once they've got married than they actually did when they were single. Because in some ways, the fact that you're having sex in one context opens you up to thinking, oh, you know, sexual fantasy and stuff. I think 1 Corinthians 7 would probably win a prize in my mind for the most misunderstood and badly applied Bible passage in scripture certainly the one that's caused the most amount of damage to

single friends of mine who think they're bound to get married because God hasn't given them the the gift of singleness or I can think of an example of a couple I knew who was struggling with not having sex and therefore thought that was God telling them to get married. They got married against the advice of everybody that knew and loved them best. And they were separated and divorced, I think, within a year or two of getting married. But it was then misapplying that verse just because they were struggling yeah isn't the case that first corinthians 7 comes after first corinthians 6 that you know you have people and within the wider context exactly what you said which wasn't uncommon in that day that you had some people that like some stoics and others that would reject marriage

altogether and say any form of sexual desire was intrinsically evil. So they're rejecting marriage. Meanwhile, they're going out to prostitutes in chapter 6 or to their mother-in-law, stepmother in chapter 5. So they are acting on their sexual urges in extremely sinful and unhealthy ways while rejecting marriage. And it's within that context that paul says no you marriage is not intrinsically evil sexual desire is not intrinsically evil it needs to be satisfied in marriage so it makes sense of the whole kind of mess that paul was dealing with kind of this this back and forth between libertine libertine living and aesthetic overly you know overly aesthetic or misguided

asceticism um yeah yeah and you just seem to have advice to couples who actually seem to be betrothed but seem to be holding up holding back from getting on and getting married and having sex because they think that sex and marriage might be wrong and yes you say that's what paul's pushing against and saying you know sex within the context of a marriage and a woman is something that's good and to be celebrated and a gift from God. It's funny you said, so you said sometimes sexual temptations are even exacerbated in a marriage context. And I've thought about that. I think that's probably true. I don't have a, well, I don't have a, you know, huge study, but statistically, last time I checked, the highest usage of porn are married straight men. And I don't know.

I mean, I think maybe that porn you know section or whatever and so i think you have this this really artificial standard that is just fictitious and then you get into marriage find out that's not what it is or it wears off whatever and and then that's that's almost worse than going in or you know worse than having a healthy understanding of sex and um being committed to a life of celibacy whereas having a misunderstanding of marriage and sex going into that and realizing this isn't this was not accurate what i was fed you know yeah yeah and certainly i mean you know again it's not a scientific example but i certainly find as a church pastor that so many men have been so surprised because they've had this silly idea that marriage would mean an end to sexual temptation.

Actually, how much more intense it's been. Once they started becoming sexually active within their marriage to their wife, they found that, yeah, it's much more. And what they thought would be the answer actually isn't the answer. It's been quite a shock. I think the most helpful chapter, I mean, your whole book, and I want to get to your new book that's coming out here in a second, but Same-Sex Attraction of the Church. For those who are watching this on YouTube, this is the book.

Your book came out, I think, a month before my book, People to Be Loved, came out. So I didn't have a chance to read it. I remember reading it right when it came out. came out and i was like oh my word people are gonna think because yours came out a month before that i like you know plagiarize your but i mean some of the ideas and thoughts and sometimes even the statements and we never even knew each other before i didn't know you before and and i was like wow this is kind of eerie how how much we're saying a lot of the same stuff but the um um and yeah your chapters are labeled you know wow, this is kind of eerie how much we're saying a lot of the same stuff. But the, and yeah, your chapters are labeled, you know, missteps, kind of wrong ideas that you, refute would be a little too combative, but that you correct, I would say. It was the, oh, which one?

The one on family. I think it's misstep two. Oh, yeah. A family is mom, dad, and 2.4 children. And you kind of just address this, for lack of better terms, this the most are in those churches that haven't grasped this at all. That this being like, that church is an intimate family where there's loads of connection and relationships and authenticity and commitment and so on. And those that are in churches that don't get this, don't even notice these individuals who are perhaps pursuing a life of celibacy. I've noticed that anecdotally, the people in my life, gay, straight, whatever, who are committed to celibacy or living a single life, their level of fulfillment, joy, happiness is connected to the kind of intimate community they're connected in.

If they're in oftentimes a big church or disconnected, then it's really difficult. But I know several that have deep, deep intimate relationships. Some of them are more introverted and they almost have to say no to all the invites and stuff, you know. And yet they're filled with joy and happiness in ways that most of my straight married friends don't have, you know. So you're a pastor. Have you seen that? So you wrote this five years ago, that statement coming on six years. Would you still say that that is more or less true in your anecdotal experience as a pastor? Yeah, I think if, you know, churches often describe themselves as family, we're a church family.

And I think often that can be a PR thing. You know, we want people to feel at home here when actually we know it's a new Testament concept. It's something that Jesus teaches. It's something that Paul both as it were teachers and demonstrates, you know, in the sense of he clearly, well he regards Timothy as his dear son, and he clearly had a whole network of spiritual relationships with men and women, look at, you know, Romans 16, and the whole network of people that he's sort of talking about there. So church is family, that's a spiritual reality, it needs to be a felt reality for everybody in our churches,

whether they're single or married, and that's good for everyone. So it's good for the singles because they don't feel lonely, but it's also good for the marrieds because they don't feel lonely as well. I found, again, as a pastor, that some of the greatest loneliness in the local church are those who are married, who have found the person that's supposed to, as it were, meet all their needs in theory, but in practice have found that no one other person has met their needs. And that actually to have a good marriage, that marriage needs to be part of a network of relationships of, you know, friends that you share as a husband or wife,

friends that the husband has, friends that the wife has, friends that, as it were, get alongside you as a husband or wife or as a couple or as a family helping you bring our kids together so church being family is excellent news for single people because they're not alone but it's also excellent news for married people because they're not alone but boy is it quite a counter cultural idea because british society and i'm sure this is true of american society idolizes the nuclear family and says it that is it that is where you're going to find everything you need. That is dangerous.

It's not Christian. The local church and a relationship with each other in Christ is where we're going to find the greatest relational flourishing. I could hear people right now, almost hear them saying, well, Ed, that's great, but my church does not look like that. And I've had pastors tell me, you know what, and they're kind of, you know, a little bit on the other side of burnout, maybe cynicism saying, look, I know what the New Testament says. I know it says brother and sister and family, this family, that it's just, it's not realistic. It's not, I can't do it. I just not, how do you create that? So

I would love to hear from you as a pastor. Well, hey, well, you know, turns out COVID is quite helpful. So we are, you know, just about to go to Christmas here in Bristol as we record this. And, you know, we've had a lockdown in the UK, which means that half the country aren't allowed to move. So you're not allowed to go into half the country to celebrate Christmas and half the country aren't allowed to move. So you're not allowed to go into half the country to celebrate Christmas, and half the country aren't allowed to leave that half the country to celebrate Christmas with others. And suddenly, all these Christmases that have been planned by nuclear families to reunite with each other have basically been cancelled. And so we're suddenly having this, and it's causing me, I mean, pain as a pastor, because I see how upset people are. But it's also, at one level, bringing me joy because it's an opportunity for us to be church family.

And to actually say, this Christmas, I'm spending my time with my church family, with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm not seeing my biological brother and my biological sister and their families. I'm not seeing my parents. But I am going to be spending Christmas with my church family. seen my parents but I am going to be spending Christmas with my church family and and actually what's encouraged me is speaking to a number of people in our church family who've expressed their understandable pain pain that I share in not seeing our nuclear families but at the same time saying isn't it great that actually this year we are going to see our spiritual family a little bit more and perhaps that's going to help us in future Christmases

to sort of remember that actually church is family. We say that. And Christmas is one of those times where we've got an opportunity to sort of prove that and not just do the default setting. Am I going to see mum and dad? Am I going to see my brother and sister? But actually, is everybody in our church family being looked after?

How am I going to spend time with my spiritual parents and children that's good siblings so you know covid is what but you know you can't order covid every christmas yeah i'm curious uh pre-covid how many people were in were part of your church family yeah so i think i think what often helped i mean we are a church we're a church family of we've got about 200 people on our on our sort of distribution list on a sunday we'll have about 120 30 over two services and so that means that our church meetings are about you know you know 50 60 70 which means that actually feeling like family is comparatively easy you can see the newcomer and you can respond to that and there's a strong small group structure

in that um and and that's been a deliberate choice for us we're part of a family of churches we've wanted to keep churches small so that you can do family and we've wanted to make small groups absolutely central so that you can do family and we're also in a place bristol is on the west coast of the uk it's one of those places that people stay people come here as students and want to stay on afterwards and people you know it's it's seen as a bit of a graveyard of ambition people come here they like it and they stay on and that really helps build family because in my church you know there are people that I've known for 20 years since we were in our early 20s they're people I've been I mentored when they were students and who are now

fellow elders married with kids and again just that sort of sticking around really helps and keeping things small really helps. And I certainly often say to a lot of single friends who are struggling with this, you need to stick in one place. You need to find a church that's smaller. You need to be patient and you really need to invest long term if you're to get that church family feel. It doesn't come at the drop of a hat. You need to you need to stick around and invest and you need to be patient. Yeah. And you need to keep working hard because, again. Family, you know, family life is hard work and you'll upset each other and you'll be hurt by people.

But you just need to stay around plug in um and keep serving and and that's the other thing is the mindset of i'm not going to wait until somebody says to me oh welcome to i'm going to see proactively try and support married couples support families invite people into my home take take the initiative in, you know, running stuff, which you'll see people mixing and building friendships. And as it were, be a catalyst myself rather than waiting for somebody else to make it all happen.

Yeah. I would speak in as an American who's been, you know, lived in the UK for several years and have experienced different church cultures. There's obviously a lot of overlap between uk well not obviously there's some overlap between uk churches in america but there's there is a some big cultural differences that do play into this very idea i let me just let me speak freely um i just know when I was living in the UK, it just, there was a much more richer communal foundation to the churches that I experienced in the UK. Part of it is, I think, the culture. Part of it's geography. I mean, I lived in Aberdeen, which isn't a small city, but people walked everywhere. People lived close. They shopped close. You know, even the parish model, which, you know, I went to an independent church that didn't, or it's a kind of a brethren church. It didn't have a parish model, obviously, but that parish mindset was kind of there.

Like you, you have your local church, the pub, the pastor, the market, and you walked unless you really needed to drive somewhere. the pub, the pastor, the market, and you walked unless you really needed to drive somewhere. And that was just in the DNA. And I feel like in America, it's like, it's just, you know, to drive 30, 40, 50 minutes, hour and a half is just normal. Everything's very spread out. Nobody walks and you drive across the street. I've literally seen people like, you know, they live across the street from Starbucks, and they will drive in the drive-thru get their coffee. And it's just, Like, you know, they live across the street from Starbucks and they will drive in the drive-thru and get their coffee. And it's just, it's just, there's just so many subtle cultural differences that the rich history, you know, I lived in a flat in Aberdeen that was like 150 years old. And it was on the newer end of, you know, but that people lived in that neighborhood. Some of them looked like for 150 years, you know, and that all that, you know, I talked to a pastor, a good friend of mine, John Tyson in New neighborhood. Some of them look like for 150 years, you know, and that all that, you know,

I talked to a pastor, a good friend of mine, John Tyson in New York, and he's been there, I think, 15 years. And he says, you know, he's got several hundred in his, maybe over a thousand in his church. And he says, of all the people in my church, there's not a single one that's been here for the whole time. I mean, it's very transient. And that's, you know, New York's unique. I'm sure maybe London's similar to that, but there's just such a transience and commuter-ness and busyness and individualism in American Christianity that again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist in my experience in the UK, but it just, I don't know.

There's just something in the water across the pond that makes it, I don't know. I don't want to say it's easy and I'm sure you have many challenges, but I miss it. Honestly, I guess that's what I'm saying. Like I just, I miss that you walk into a church and you're probably going to get invited over for lunch. And I remember the lunches weren't so, you know, you have morning service, evening service. If you went to somebody's house, you would have tea and cookies, then lunch. Then you would hang out and maybe even fall asleep, take a nap at their house. Then you had a light supper because you have to go to evening.

You'd spend the whole afternoon. You'd go service to service and the whole hour. And that was just normal. And sometimes if we're exhausted, we're like, yeah, we got to say no because I just don't have all day to look. But here that's unheard of. To invite somebody over and have them stay the entire afternoon and then go to night service together like that. So that would be a good way to lose friends like that just doesn't really exist here. Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm reminiscing right now. I'm feeling quite sad.

But I think there's a book I'm supposed to be writing that haven't got around to writing which is about how we find intimacy you know and the intimacy is is is found in a relationship with god in in knowing yourself well but also in intimacy with other people in relationship with other people but that might include marriage but not necessarily but also intimacy with place and actually you know one of the things I bore my church with is this sort of idea that actually feeling you belong somewhere and becoming part of the architecture. And actually, you know, I moved around a lot as a child, I was a pastor's kid. I've loved the fact that now I've been been in bristol with us with that with a short break now

for 20 years and i just feel it feels like home and it's familiar and actually that's that that's because i know people and i bump into people but it's also because i just know the place well and you know i know i know it as a city and i love it as a city um and that actually matters too yeah um as part of actually having roots in a place. And I've, I don't have to learn that. For actually, interesting, I've learned that increasingly from an American. So Wendell Berry or Wallace Stegner,

you know, two authors that I love who've got a real strong sense of place and the importance of place and the importance of community and being rooted in a place, which I've really enjoyed learning from them and become more and more convinced of myself Eugene Peterson's another one who yeah exactly has a very holistic view of kind of parish yeah ministry is there anything else that you can do

or do do as a pastor to kind of cultivate that family intimate dynamic in a church or even because you so you have a smaller church by by American standards it would be smaller so that may does make it a little easier but what advice could you give to a pastor who's like yeah on paper I would love for this to be a rich family kind of intimate community but it's just I don't know what what to do. but it's just, I don't know what to do. I think it's both word and deed, isn't it? So I talk a lot about spiritual parenting, particularly for singles,

but actually for everybody in the church. I'm wanting them to be thinking, who can I mentor? Who can I be a spiritual parent to? Or who can I be a spiritual older brother or who can I be spiritual older brother or older sister to but just be constantly thinking how can I you know how can I treat people in this church family as if they were younger brothers or sisters or as if they were my own children or as if they were my own parents and I think just helping people think you know particularly those of us you know those of us who are childless and perhaps would love to have had children. What's been so meaningful for me is I struggled with childlessness, which I think is often talked about from a male perspective.

As I struggled with childlessness is actually what I can't. in the book but there was a there was a very poignant moment for me years ago when uh i just saw somebody i'd mentored actually when they were at university arrive at church bearing their first born child for the first time and you know carrying it in triumph around the room and remember having just an overwhelming sense of sadness that i would never go for that experience and then like just a couple of times later on that year god in his goodness just giving me two bits of feedback one from actually a friend of mine who said that he'd met somebody i mentored that summer and i was going how did you know that and he said oh they would like you i could tell that you'd been i could tell that you'd mentored them because they were like you

and i was going is this in good or bad ways and they said mixture of mixture of both but um you know i it was a really helpful it was a really helpful moment for me because i recognized that you know i might not leave a biological family tree but i will leave a spiritual family tree and i'm wanting to say to everybody in our church family what spiritual family tree you're going to leave you know who are your spiritual descendants going to be they might be probably you know let's be praying that they are your biological children if you've got them but actually your spiritual family tree might not actually include your biological children but might include the people that you looked after when they were in the youth group or you know for me they're not going to be biological children but they will be the people that i've

mentored and when i work amongst students or the people that I'm preaching to Sunday by Sunday. So I think I talk about that a lot, but also try and demonstrate that a lot by investing time and effort in spiritual parenting and calling others to do the same. I can speak firsthand. So, you know, I have four kids, three are teenagers. My son's 11 and oh my gosh, three are teenagers my son's 11 and oh my gosh I give you anything for an older adult to take an interest and a real intentional interest in in helping me disciple my kids because it's it's so difficult and enjoyable whatever but I mean it's like I and I think even statistically isn't it like

um the kids the Christian kids who are raised in the church, you know, for them to stay in the faith 10 years later, the common denominators, did they have three or four or five non-parental adult Christian mentors? Whether they're called mentors or not, but influences in their life. And I can think of, you know, that certainly as a teenager, you know, at least two of the significant, yeah, mentors for me, not that they would ever have probably called themselves that or seen themselves as that, were single men. And they were able to do that because they were single men and they had the time and ability to do that because of their marital status or lack of marital status. And, yeah, I think that's yeah that's that's a deeply significant thing that you can do and I do that in my biological family as an uncle but I can do that as an honorary uncle I mean I've I can't remember you know I have godchildren so I have 13 godchildren you know which is you know a nightmare at Christmas um but you know is an invitation to me from their parents to be involved in prayer for their kids but also some form of mentoring and it's and it's worked in

different ways you know because of geography they're not all in bristol and in fact i think three of them are in bristol um but that's the great privilege and again i think that sort of culture of god children which is basically know, being invited by a married couple to be involved in their family life and take some spiritual responsibility for their children to support them as parents. like Anglican friends, but also non-denominational friends to be involved in that way in their children's lives because it just builds that sort of sense that, you know, it takes a church to raise a child, not just a mom and a dad. I have to ask, because in the American context, I can imagine this being an issue in some churches.

The fact that you still experience same-sex attraction, and yet you're a pastor,'re godfather to people you're invited into their lives i could i know some branches of christianity at least here in the states where people would be resist they would see you as kind of like no we don't want you around do you face resistance in in the uk from certain brands of Christianity to your experience? Or has that not been much of an issue in your context? I mean, what I suppose I'd be surprised by is actually some of the advantages that come from being a pastor who is same-sex attracted. In the sense that actually ministry amongst the female members of my church family is just there's just a different dynamic to it all right um and that opens up some possibilities in pastoral care

that wouldn't be there probably if i was heterosexual and i thought it would be really i thought it would then be an issue with you would all men think that um ministry with them would be suspect and i just haven't had that um partly because um yeah just partly because it's been open on us that is it's it's not an issue you know i i'm not the sort of you know there are different people have different experiences of sexuality for me i tend to fall in love with a particularly sort a particular sort of good-looking guy um and if that sort of particular good-looking guy walks into my church family i will tell people who are elders and who keep me accountable that they have and i will not be doing one-to-one mentoring ministry with them um but but apart from that there's there's no

problem with me getting alongside mentoring men it doesn't lead me into sexual temptation anyway shape or form so actually you could argue that for me personally i have a greater range of people i can do ministry with without falling into uh sort of as it were sin and then perhaps a lot of heterosexual pastors bit of a theory but yeah that's that's that makes perfect proof you know i'm i'm asking on behalf of kind of maybe other people i mean i've known people i've same-sex attracted uh women who say christians sold out for jesus who say you know my my siblings won't let me watch their kids you know it's like, not only is that not even like true, but for a female, like it just doesn't,

there's so many reasons why it's just, you know, and it's just so sad that people have relational barriers of that sort, you know? And as Christians, we need to come back out for what it is, which is genuine homophobia, isn't it? It's a genuine fear, irrational fear of people because of their sexuality. And there's no, there's no stats or anything to prove that that's the case. And yeah, I was, I was massively cheered by, you know, once I was open, you know, people kept asking me to be Godfather to their children.

And in fact, you know, since I've been open, we know that I've had, I'm the legal guardian for two sets of kids, you know, as well. So that's somebody sort of trusting me saying, you know, if we as parents died, we would be wanting you to raise our kids for us. And that's been an immense encouragement to me. I'm curious about this. I love that. I don't think we've had this conversation do you think if you use the term gay as like an identity that that would change things a little bit I know there is for some people

if you say you know you wrestle with same-sex attraction that's okay no problem but if you say I am gay there's so much political and even moral things wrapped up to that that that might be a barrier is that the same in gay, there's so much political and even moral things wrapped up to that, that that might be a barrier. Is that the same in the UK or not so much? I think it's less of an issue in the UK.

I would tend to use the language of experience same-sex attraction within Christian circles, particularly with older generations. But in the secular world, in evangelism, or actually speaking to younger generations, I tend to use the language of being gay. But also, if I said I'm gay, I'd say, I just basically, I just want to use language well. And I think when we use language well, we want to sort of describe something and help people get what is true and what isn't true. So I think if I'm using the language of I'm gay, I'll then often say, but I'm not looking for you to introduce me to your gay friends.

Or if I'm saying same-sex attracted, I might say, you know, some people would say I'm gay. So I'm sort of wanting to sort of reference the two and just explain to people that I'm not what they think in the sense of I'm not um I'm just I wanted to get them to realize there are some people who are same-sex attracted to a gay but are committed to being single and who finds um great joy in embracing their sexuality to some extent at the same time as saying there are things that I'm not going to do with my sexuality like enter into a

same-sex sexual relationship um and i wanted to sort of somehow communicate that language is always complicated i could imagine in like in an evangelistic context where somebody says oh you're a christian oh well yeah obviously i can never be a christian i'm gay that would be a wide open highway for yeah and i'll say well i'm gay too oh yeah so a wide open highway for... Yeah, and I'll say, well, I'm gay too. Oh, I'm gay and a Christian. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly the context in which I would say, well, you know, to say in that sort of situation,

well, I'm not gay, I'm same-sex attracted, would just, I mean... But so I choose my language well, but what I would want to say is that, you know, one of the things I'm, you know, and I know that most people that use the language of I'm gay and a Christian would also say this, is that we're all, all of us who are Christians, whatever our sexuality, are wanting to root our identity, best of all, in Christ and in our union with him. And, you know, I'm always wanting to make sure that happens. And that's a fight when it comes to my sexuality. It's also a fight when it comes to my role as a pastor, it's a fight when it comes to

a whole host of contexts where there's a danger of another identity drawing away from my most fundamental identity, which is being united to Christ. I just thought of analogy. It's almost like Paul, like in the first century, if you said you're a Christian, the accusation is, oh, so you're denying all the gods. Well, we're religious. You're not religious. And I could imagine people saying, oh, I can't become a Christian. I'm too religious. And Paul saying, oh, well, I'm actually religious too, using that common connection as kind of a bridge to reconstruct what true religion is. Whereas in other contexts, he might not say I'm religious

because that would be associated with worshiping the pagan gods or I don't know. I don't know if that works. But I wanted to, before we break, and for my audience, we've had some serious tactics. We've actually been booted offline. I think it's on my Idaho end here. And so I hope my wonderful, amazing,

miraculous audio engineer can smooth this out. So hopefully it hasn't been too distracting. But I want to talk about in case we get struck down a third time here. Your forthcoming, well, at least in the States, it's forthcoming purpose, forthcoming book, Purposeful Sexuality, a Short Christian Introduction. I am so excited about this book. one, because it's short, two, because you wrote it, and three, because it's so desperately needed. As I read the description, it looks like, I mean, a real just accessible, lay-level, theological look at what is sexuality from a Christian perspective, and talks about marriage. What's our sexuality for? How can you truly flourish as a human being? Is sex necessary for that? Can you give us a little elevator

pitch on this book? I'm so excited about this. I just learned over the last going around the place talking about sexuality, talking about same-sex attraction, talking about different experiences of sexuality. I found again and again that the key question is, what is sexuality for? That's the key question for me to ask and answer. It's the key question to ask other people. When you're having a disagreement about sex and who can have sex with who when, I find one of the most helpful questions is, well, should we just take a step back and, you know, can you answer the question what is sexuality for and somebody shares their answer you share your answer and suddenly the disagreement you've had about gay marriage makes sense because actually sexuality what you both think sexuality is for is is very different and of course if you

both think sexuality is for very different things you're going to disagree about the right place for sex and who can have sex with who so the key question to ask in conversations around sexuality is what do you think sexuality is for and the thing that we need to answer as christians is what do we what do we think sexuality is for and the answers we tend to trot out which are you know marriage kids enjoyment are true and biblical and good but they're not the whole answer and actually it's only when you see the whole answer and the really deep reasons why God created us as human as sexual beings that you actually see that that sexuality is most about us appreciating God and his love for us and trailing heaven, our destiny, giving us a little foretaste here on earth of where we're heading in the new creation.

And actually just the first times I discovered that and saw that and felt that were life-changing for me. And I'm hoping that this book will help them be life-changing for others too. I want to have you tease that out what is sexuality uh for you mentioned procreation part of it companionship maybe part of it um is that and then yeah can you keep going on that and and how and how do you can you flourish as a sexual being as a single person we kind of come full circle to what we're talking about at the beginning so perhaps you know let's think let's think sort of practically and partially when i um when i'm blown away by um you know by the when i just feel these really strong sexual feelings towards something i'm blown away by the beauty of a man what how do I process that Christianly well there are various ways but one

way is to do this is as it were to say to myself Ed the power the power of attraction the power of feelings you're feeling at the moment is just a small a small little pathetic version of the power of God's love for his people the church the power of God's love for his people, the church, the power of God's love for you as part of his bride. So that moment of being, you know, just being blown away by the power of sexual attraction is just a little insight into the power and passion of God's love for us in Christ. And actually that's just, we can do that. We can, as it were, cross-refer from that moment,

because the Bible encourages us to do that cross-referencing, as it were, through passages, you know, like Ezekiel 16, or Hosea, or Song of Songs, and actually say, no, you've just been given a small little insight to how passionately God loves you. I'm not saying that, you know, as a result, you know, all sexual temptation and sexual feelings are right, but I'm saying there's something you can do with the power of that feeling. I could do as a single person. When I feel the power of sexual attraction, I can think, wow, this is a reminder of how much God loves me. And it shows that sexual desire,

even satisfying sexual desire is not ultimate. Like it's an ultimate to a greater, much, much deeper, much more cosmic divine end in mind so even um is resisting sexual expression if i could put it like that even that is a form of and let me know if this is the way you'd word it you know cultivating hope for ultimate satisfaction in god i think christopher west might say something like that or even david bennett's you know this is a big i just talked to david yesterday and he you know um i don't know when these podcasts will come out

but you know he was like i just i he's like i understand the progressive narrative and same sex relationships and all that that poll everything but he's I'm just so enamored with Jesus. I just can't go there because I have so much satisfaction, you know, it's just any really practically just intertwines this whole thing together. And anyway, what is that? How would you word that? So when you, not just you specifically, but you, but you or anybody who's single Christian resisting their, an expression of sexual desire, this can come from a, again,

a married heterosexual couple who's constantly having to discipline their sexual desires. Is there, is there, what is that doing for their flourishing? If I can word it like that. Well, my, my example would be for any of us, whatever our sexuality would be this, you see a beautiful person and you you know you see them walking down the street you just see them and you are wowed by them um what are you wowed by you're wowed by the beauty that god has created you're wowed by the image of god in them you have an opportunity there to work basically it's an opportunity for two things you can either

idolize them you can become idolatrous you can worship things you can either idolize them you can become idolatrous you can worship them you can want to consume them you can think that person a relationship with that person would would bring me joy and solve all my problems and you know let's be honest we do something like that don't we so often we see beauty and we think that's what i need and we want to consume it and we lust after it and in effect we worship it or that that's one way we could go or the other route and this is the route we need to train ourselves to do more is to recognize the beauty and go wow thank you god for the beauty you've scattered throughout creation in human beings in sunsets in art in literature etc, et cetera, et cetera. This isn't a chance to worship you. The beauty I've just seen is but a little glimmer of your beauty.

Thank you so much for the gift of beauty that's just walked past me. But I want to worship you because you are the source of true beauty. The beauty that's just walked after me, it's beauty will fade, but your beauty will last. And thank you for giving me and Jesus access to your beauty forever. That's the sort of spiritual exercise. I think we need to be doing much more. That's a good word.

That's a good word to wrap it up on. Again, the book is Purposeful Sexuality. It comes out in, it looks like March 23rd on Amazon in America. And I think it comes out in January, you said in the UK? Yeah, in the UK. That's right. Yeah, 21st of January, apparently. Okay, well, great.

Ed, I mean, I could talk to you for hours. Unfortunately, I got another conversation here I got to engage in. But thanks so much for your work, your ministry and for continuing to write books and speak publicly. Oh, I forgot to mention, I'll mention this in the intro. Hopefully I already did when people are listening to it, however that goes. But you're the co-founder of Living Out, which is a ministry that in many ways is almost like the UK version of the ministry that I help

run, the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. I think we're doing very, very similar things. And every time I'm on your guys' website, just rich, rich with resources. And you're relaunching a whole new website, right? In January. And again, maybe that will have already launched by the time this comes out. But if you're in the UK or even not, I mean, I'm not in the UK

and I benefit greatly from it, but livingout.org, I think it is. Yeah, livingout.org. And it will look new and there will be loads of new content um in a whole host of different forms from mid-january awesome thanks so much ed for uh being on theology in a row it's been a pleasure thank you Thank you.