Theology in the Raw - 847: Multiethnicity in the Church: An Optional Possibility or Gospel-Necessity?

Episode Date: March 8, 2021

As the title suggests, this episode is all about the question of multi-ethnicity in the body of Christ. And Dr. Gray is the right person to challenge us in this conversation. Dr. Derwin L. Gray is the founding and lead pastor of Transformation Church, one of the largest multiethnic, multigenerational, mission-shaped communities in the U.S., located in Indian Land, South Carolina, just south of Charlotte, North Carolina.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support show for as little as five bucks a month. And most of all, you can become part of the theology in the raw community where you get access to premium content, once a month podcasts, once a month blogs, blog posts, and other just conversations that we have in that community. So you can check the show notes if you want more information on that. I would really appreciate your support. I have on the show today a friend of mine, Dr. Derwin Gray.

And Derwin's been on the show before. And one of my favorite pastors in America, one of my favorite people to engage with, this dude is an incredible preacher. He has an amazing heart for people, tons of pastoral wisdom, and the mind of a scholar. This dude is absolutely super sharp. He has an MDiv from Southern Evangelical Seminary. He also has an honorary doctorate from the same school, I believe. Yes, he's got an honorary doctorate from Southern Evangelical Seminary. He also has an honorary doctorate from the same school, I believe. Yes, he's got an honorary doctorate from Southern Evangelical Seminary and then another doctorate, an earned doctorate from Northern Seminary where he studied under Scott McKnight. His main area

of research and writing is on multi-ethnic churches. He pastors Transformation Church in South Carolina, which is one of, if not the, I think it's the largest multi-ethnic churches. He pastors Transformation Church in South Carolina, which is one of, if not the, I think it's the largest multi-ethnic church in America. And he has become kind of a father to many other multi-ethnic church planters. And this is a huge heart of his. And we talk a lot about that on the podcast and why he's so driven to pursuing this really difficult ministry of multi-ethnic, of pastoring multi-ethnic churches. And multi-ethnic, not in the sense of assimilating people into a white-dominated culture, but genuinely integrating different cultures into one body of Christ. And he has some very strong theological convictions about this

vision, which I think are absolutely fantastic. He is an avid writer. He's written lots of books and is working on many more, which we talked about in the podcast. The one that I, I think I first came across Derwin, or at least, no, I knew him before this, but the first one that I read was the book, The High Definition Leader, where he casts a vision for pastoring in a multi-ethnic context. So please welcome to the show, for the second time, the one and only pastor, Dr. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have a returning guest today, the one and only Derwin Gray. Derwin, thanks so much for being back on the show, man.

It's my honor and privilege as always to get with you. You are one of my faves, even though you're all the way up. You're in Idaho, right? I'm all the way in Idaho, right next to the great state of Montana, where I know your wife's from. Yep, that's where my wife is from. And not too long ago, my wife and I were actually at our alma mater, Brigham Young University. And so my wife and I were asked to come back for Black History Month and to talk about root out racism. And so they asked my wife and I to come and share. And so we did 20 talks in two days to various athletic teams, athletic support and coaches and administration.

And it was just a great opportunity to communicate from a gospel-centric, Jesus-shaped understanding of rooting out racism through the gospel. And I have never heard of two non-Mormons having that type of access. So we love going out west to see the beautiful mountains. And so it was just, it was super dope. Did your wife, your wife went to BYU too, right? She did. She did. My wife and I met at BYU. She was on a academic scholarship and she was on the track team. She threw the javelin.

And so the first time I saw her, yeah, exactly. The first time I saw her, she was doing triceps extensions in the weight room. And I was not a Christian at this time. And my first thought was, man, we could make some athletic kids. And we ended up dating, fell quickly in love, and we got married in college. And so one of the good things about going to school there is that Mormons get married early. So we fell in love and it's like, coitate now we're gonna we're gonna get married and so uh we've been together for 31 years and come may 23rd we'll be married 29 years

how well you're not that old how old were you when you got married like 19 man i had just barely turned 21 oh my so and so. So in April, I will be 50. Oh, my. Dude, the big 5-0, man. Big 5-0. Yeah, man. You look like you're still in shape, though. Yeah.

I appreciate it. So, like, it's this love-hate thing. Like, being a former professional athlete, right. Even though I'm about to be 50, I still think I should look like what I looked like when I was 21, like 4% body fat. I mean, man, I was, I was so cut. I needed band-aids. Like I look like an action figure doll. Like I was just chiseled. And so like, I'm in like, I'm in shape for a normal human being, but for where I want to be i'm like man but then i have to understand like you know what i'm not a professional athlete anymore plus

when i'm in a season of writing books uh all my energy goes to writing and what's left i'll do a little bit of working out so but thank you and go ahead oh no yeah go ahead i was just i was just gonna say also black don't crack oh you're gonna steer us into the race conversation i we will get there but are you um are you working on a book right now um can you can you talk about it? Yeah, absolutely. So during the pandemic, this has been some of the most fruitful time of my life. So I wrote a best-selling book called The Good Life, what Jesus teaches about finding true happiness that came out in June 1 of 2020. So that book is based on the Sermon of the Mount. Now, come October 2021, I have a book called God, Do You Hear Me? Discovering the Prayer that God Always Answers, and that book is on the Lord's Prayer. Come April 6, 2021, I have a book coming out called Building a Multi-Ethnic Church, a vision of grace, love, and reconciliation in a divided world.

So that'll be out on the 6th of April. 6th of April. Then in 2022, I have a book out with Tyndale entitled, Does It Have to Be So Black and White? Finding a Way to Heal the Racial Divide. So what's the relationship between those last two that are on race, generally speaking, and the HD Leader. Yes. So HD Leader, I wrote that in 2015 to help leaders learn how to build a multi-ethnic church. So basically, building a multi-ethnic church is the updated version of HD Leader. I have about 12 to 15% of new and current material. Also, when I wrote HD Leader in 2015, I don't think American evangelicalism was ready for that message. And I think what's happened over the last four to five years is not only the Trump years, but you've had George Floyd, you have had Lamont Albury, you have had the Black exodus out of the Whitehaven Jellicle Church. But what I'm seeing

also, too, is that Gen Z is saying, hey, does Jesus care about racism? Does Jesus care about racial injustice? Does Jesus care about justice? And so I think now the message is more palatable. And here's why. Eight minutes and 46 seconds of that officer's knee on George Floyd's neck. And with COVID, we couldn't turn away. There was nowhere else for us to go. We're so busy as Americans entertaining ourselves. The country and the world was shut down. We had to see that.

But then we saw protests in Germany. We saw protests in England. We saw protests around the world. And I think many Christians were kind of like, that should have been us. So like, I'm thankful for Black Lives Matter movement, but I'm not a part of Black Lives Matter. My thrust for racial healing is Jesus saying, love your neighbor as you love yourself. And so I think people are opening up to the gospel is more than just Jesus forgive my sins. He not only forgives our sins, but he gives us brothers and sisters with different colored skins, and these siblings become Jesus's physical body on earth to display the glory of God. Do you think – it's interesting to look at the last five years since you wrote your book and you're saying that you don't think the church was as ready for that kind of message as it is now

um i could see two different arguments being made one is that we are more racially divided more torn across racial lines and yet from another perspective in my world a growing number of evangelicals are either realizing this is a long overdue conversation, or maybe now they're finally kind of like, oh my gosh, this isn't a sociological question, this is a theological question and an ecclesiological question. Would you say then now is turbulent as the last four years have been, and the last year in particular, that the church is now more than ever ready to dig into the theological meat of the race conversation? Yeah, you know, Preston, I think what you said is a beautiful paradox, that both can be true simultaneously. And so,

in one way, we definitely are more divided. But in another way, those who've been sitting on the sidelines want to get in and be a part of the healing. And so let me give you a story. So the Lord has given me space to create what's called building a multi-ethnic church roundtable. We've done that for five years where we bring leaders in, we equip them. God has blessed us as a church. A multi-ethnic church is not an attentional gospel-shaped multi-ethnic church. It's not supposed to have growth like a church growth church, right? But God has blessed us with not only the theological depth, the ecclesiological

diversity, a bent towards justice and evangelism, and we've also grown. So God has given me a platform, and a lot of my white pastor friends, after the tragic murder of George Floyd, many of them spent like two or three weeks talking about racism at a basic level. And you would be shocked at how many elders were like, we're leaving this church. Thousands of members like we're leaving. How dare you try to guilt us? There's no systemic injustice. If George Floyd wasn't high, that wouldn't have happened. There's no, why, you know, what happened in the past is in the past. And I was talking to one very prominent pastor who has been around for a long time. And as we were talking, this is what I said. I said,

how is it that so much of majority culture evangelicalism got into conspiracy theories, got into supporting a president who didn't have a moral track record? Because I remember when Bill Clinton was the worst thing ever. Donald Trump comes along and it's like, well, his personal life doesn't matter. And, you know, and he said to me, he said, we have failed. He goes, we have failed. And a part of that is when you teach a individualistic gospel that Jesus died for my sins and his job is to kind of help me live my suburban privileged life, then when you begin to teach a more robust understanding of the redemptive work of Jesus, it's kind of like you've been feeding kids cotton candy and you try to give them broccoli, and they're like, I don't want this trash.

Like, you got me here with cotton candy. Like, why are you trying to give me broccoli now? When all the while, the church is big, but it's filled with diabetes spiritually. It's filled with rotten teeth spiritually. It's filled with poor thinking spiritually. And so there's a lot of pastors now who are willing to say, man, you know what? My church is 15, 20, 30,000, but what have we actually done? And that's kind of my thing too, is if the idea of the gospel is simply to send you to heaven when you die, then you haven't read the words of Jesus.

Jesus is the saving king who brings his kingdom in and through his people to be ambassadors on behalf of his kingdom, displaying his glory. And so racial reconciliation is a part of the gospel mandate of discipleship. Holiness, that's a word we don't use much anymore, but holiness means to be conformed to the image of Jesus. It's not a work that we do, it's the work of God in us that we participate in by faith. So much of our preaching and teaching, and I say this respectfully, is just a glorified TED Talk. Like, people need the saving King of Jesus, and He's a good and gracious King who by grace demands us into participation in His story for His glory, and at the crux of that is reconciliation with God and reconciliation

with one another, especially across ethnic lines. And so think about this, the life of Christ. Who was the first person he told that he was the Jewish Messiah? a Samaritan woman. A rabbi would never talk to a woman in public, and a Jew would never talk to a Samaritan. Think about this. Jesus goes to the temple, and he says, you are turning my father's house into a den of thieves, because it's supposed to be a house of prayer for all people, ethnos, all people. Think about this. When Jesus did miracles of feeding, on one side of the Sea of Galilee was Jews. On the other side of the Sea of Galilee were Gentiles. And so he feeds them both with miracles as a foretaste to the banquet of Abraham. People forget God the Father made a promise to Abraham,

through you all the nations would be blessed, that God's going to give Abraham a big old family made up of all the peoples on earth. Jesus comes to fulfill and to ratify that family, and the promise of the Holy Spirit is the presence of God that glues us together as one. God keeps his promise. So I'm passionate about cross-cultural relationships, being healthy with my siblings of other ethnicities, because I'm joining God in His faithfulness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I kind of want to just have you just keep going, but I want to ask you a question along these lines, because I've wondered about this. And we may have talked about this before in the past, but if I go back to when that book Divided by Faith came out, that kind of rocks some people's world. And I know that Willow Creek, if I remember correctly, you would know more about this probably through your McKnight connection and everything.

Like Willow Creek, I forget the guy. What's the dude's name? Bill Hybels? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't he read that and just like was really – and I know he's had his own issues since then. But in terms of the race thing, he's like, man, have we been doing this all wrong? And they really stepped into that and that carried a lot of influence and seemed it and it seems like that book did trigger a kind of growing movement and awareness of ethnic reconciliation in the church

and there seems to be more and more churches pursuing this do you feel like that trajectory so that's early 2000s late 2000s do you feel like that that trajectory kept going did it peter out did it flatline or what what because i feel feel like the mid-pre-Trump years and even Trump years, and then you mentioned it, and I want to get into this, kind of the exit of black evangelicals from kind of reformed evangelical circles

is a thing. Like, it's not just one or two. Like, this is a thing happening. Did something happen in the mid-2000s that stunted that kind of movement? Or was my trajectory, my view of this kind of trajectory, people stepping into this conversation, am I off on that? No, no, no. I don't think you're off at all.

And so just some brief history here, right? So the Azusa Street Revival, the birth of modern-day Pentecostalism started out as a multi-ethnic movement. Then in 1944, Dr. King's mentor, Howard Thurman, planted a multi-ethnic church in San Francisco. And then you move to Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech. Then Dr. John Perkins, who's a mentor and a friend, preached this message. And then somebody who's been forgotten is Tom Skinner. Tom Skinner, his 1971 Urbana speech, I listened to it and I go, oh my gosh, this is where I get this stuff from, right? So Skinner was a part of it. Then you go to Dr. Tony Evans. Now, my friend Mark DeMaz has looked at the trajectory of the multi-ethnic church movement, but what I want to say, though, is this. Our modern understanding of

it is rooted in the ancient ecclesiological vision of Jesus. So I want to make that clear. This is rooted in the ecclesiological vision of Jesus, that the church would be Jews and Gentiles unified in Christ, that the church would be Jews, Blacks, Whites, Latino, Asians, Natives, every nation, tribe, and tongue are siblings in Christ. There is no ethnic superiority. There's no cultural superiority in Christ. Our distinctions are not obliterated. They are celebrated.

We're not colorblind. We're color-blessed. It's our differences that make us different for the better in the gospel. And so getting to that 2004 book, Divided by Faith, it was very monumental and very pivotal, and the trajectory continued. But here's the problem, though. Here's the problem. Number one is economics still affects a lot of the majority culture church, that people in the pews and their money often dictates to what's being preached. And there were some people who did not want their biases challenged, did not want their prejudices challenged, did not want their privilege challenged. So let me give this illustration, and I heard Myles McPherson give this illustration.

He's a pastor in San Diego, and I've kind of adapted it to my own. So when we were in elementary school, the overwhelming majority of desks were made for right-handed people, right? And people who were left-handed would write on the desk as well, but it was harder for them because the desk wasn't made for them. And for us who were right-handed, we didn't even think about those who were left-handed, and here's why. It's because we had right privilege. The desk was made for us, and typically when things are made for you, you think that your experience is normative. So as Americans and as American Christians, the majority culture has a culture that was made for it, and left-handed people or minorities, ethnic minorities, work just as hard, but their hard work became more difficult because the culture wasn't made for them. for them. So in understanding the gospel, we have to teach a Philippians 2-3, what Paul did to teach Jews and Gentiles how to love each other. Do nothing out of selfish ambition, but in humility, consider others better than yourself. So a part of the gospel discipleship is to recognize,

oh my gosh, I'm a right-handed person using a right-handed desk. I need help make more left-handed desks because there's other left-handed people. And so a lot of times, the way the gospel is preached in majority culture churches is ethnicity is totally stripped out of it. Like I've had people say, pastor, you talk about race too much. And I say, well, why do you say that? And they'll go, well, because you just seem to be saying it. I said, well, so do you not want me to tell you that Cornelius was a Roman centurion, that the woman at the well was a Samaritan, that Jesus was a Jew, that there were Canaanites, Hittites, Zebibites, Persevites, that there were Egyptians, there were barbarians, there were Scythians, and at the end of the Bible, there's every nation,

tribe, and tongue. If we strip ethnicity into social historical context, we don't have a gospel. We can't even do proper hermeneutics if we don't understand social historical ethnic type things. ethnic type thing. So that's number one, is people didn't want to be challenged. And then I think number two is it's hard. It's hard. And most of the teaching that pastors receive, that there's their conferences, is how to build a homogeneous church, even though they wouldn't say that. And what's happened is, is planning a church or building a church has turned into a business plan instead of a missional outpost. Man. I mean, if I can kind of, yeah, follow that line of reasoning, what you're saying is, I mean, if you put building a multi-ethnic church as an essential part of your ecclesiological vision, there's a good chance you probably won't grow numerically than if you pursued a more homogeneous model. than if you pursued a more homogeneous model. Well, there's no question, without a doubt, that Donald McGavern, when he was a missionary in India, had to reach the various Indian castes, because the castes had folks who were untouchable all the way up to the priestly castes.

So what he said is, let's do evangelism to the various people groups, but then get them in the church to integrate. And he said, be careful. If you build a church this way, you're going to create racist churches if you don't integrate. This actually fits into our racialized culture because people like being segregated anyway. And so the homogeneous unit principle was developed. And even today, we don't use that language very much, but that's the way most pastors, especially in my space, build their churches based on affinity versus based on who is in our geographical location. affinity versus based on who is in our geographical location. So probably where you're at in Idaho, it's not very ethnically diverse, but you do have Latinos, you do have Native Americans. But if you don't, that's where you build relationships with brothers and sisters of other ethnic groups, not just in a paternalistic way where you go help them, but actually they come help you. Yeah. You know, and then lastly, new research, Dr. Corey Edwards, Michael Emerson, Corey Edwards is at Ohio State, Dr. Michael Emerson, both believers. He is at University of Chicago.

is at University of Chicago, new research shows this. 58% of megachurches are now considered multi-ethnic. And the bar for being multi-ethnic is not one ethnic group makes up 80%. So the problem is, of those 58% of multi-ethnic churches, 90% of the pastors are white. And what that means is, what the research shows is, those megachurches that are led by overwhelmingly white staffs are not dealing with the issues of racial injustice, not dealing with the issues of racism. They're not dealing with the issues of justice at all. And so it's like you have chocolate chips amongst the vanilla, chocolate and caramel chips amongst the vanilla, but not in the leadership influence. And so there's a lot of black evangelicals, as well as other believers of color who are leaving those spaces because it's like, well, you want our color, but not our culture. You want our presence, but you don't want our gifting. You want us in the pews, but you don't want us in the pulpit.

Would that be the distinction between assimilation versus integration? I think I got that distinction from you many years ago, where most churches will be fine with loads of people of color assimilating into the white-dominated culture and leadership. But the true integration, that's where Ephesians really takes root. We can go to Ephesians if you want. Yeah, man. No, no. I mean, totally. Totally.

There's a difference between assimilation and accommodation. Accommodation. Assimilation means this. For us to have unity, I need uniformity. Accommodation means this. We have unity, and your cultural distinctions is a blessing that's added to the body. a blessing that's added to the body. So how does that work at your church? I mean, can you describe maybe some of the wins that you've seen, like successes where you're like, man, we feel like we accomplished our mission in this area, and maybe some challenges? Because is your church, Jesus' church that you pastor, you know what I mean? Is it one of, if not the largest,

genuinely multi-ethnic churches in the country? I mean, it's got to be up there. Tell us how you did it, man. Well, first and foremost, right, is you can't give away what you don't possess. So you can't plant or build a truly multi-ethnic church if you're not living a multi-ethnic life. Like who is around your dinner table will be who's in the congregation. So my wife and I value human beings. We value the other because God does. So even before we were believers, we lived a multi-ethnic life. After we came to Christ, that only intensified. So that's number one. Number two is we have deep, deep

theological convictions. Most people want to know our practices, and this is what I say to them. I can teach you every practice that we do, but you will be like a tree with shallow roots, that at the end of the day, God, after Genesis 11 and his family scatters, tells Abraham, I'm getting my family back, Genesis 12. Acts chapter 2 is the fulfillment of Genesis 12. You have 16 different ethnic groups come to Jerusalem for Pentecost, they hear the gospel in their own language, and then they take it to the world. God wants a family back. Christ, Galatians 3.14, is the promise so that the Gentiles can come to faith and that the Holy Spirit seals us together. So number two, it's a deep theological issue that I've spent a decade training my staff, training the other elder pastors,

training our congregation, that they buy into it as well. So what I like to say is that, number three, the way we disciple is not only do you get all of the beautiful individualistic things, you get justification, you get reconciliation, you get regeneration. You get redemption. You get all that so that you can love your brother and sister. All that so that, you know. Our staff was multi-ethnic. If you want to know if a church is truly moving towards being multi-ethnic, look at who the leaders are. And typically, I'm all for, if it's a white space, I'm all for black folks using their gifts to sing. But man, we made great executive pastors. We made great preachers.

We made great elders. Like we can lead too. And besides, we have a long history of that. Hello, St. Augustine from Africa. Hello, Athanasius, who helped us to codify Jesus is the eternal son of God and 100% man. You know what his nickname was? The Black Dwarf. His opponents called him the Black Dwarf because he's a black man from Africa. So we can think theologically as well, right? And so at our church, we started from the top saying, this is what we want our congregation to look like. But also from the pulpit,

to look like, but also from the pulpit. I have to be a lover of people to understand culture, and not just one culture, but I got white folks from South Carolina, understand them. Asian, whether Indian or East Asian, white, black, all types of folks. And so I have to be a lover of people to understand where they come from. Like, it's important for me to say from the pulpit, man, it is tough being a conservative white man in America now. Like, you get blamed for everything. Extinction of the dinosaurs, you know, global warming, you know, just as a joke to let them know, hey, I'm your pastor too. Like, I love you too. And it's always trying to move us back to the heart of Jesus, particularly reflected in the Beatitudes, right? So our understanding of Jesus as the saving king and the kingdom he builds is integrated all throughout our church. But I would say leadership reflects who you want your congregation to be.

Why do you think it is that some churches that might have a diverse congregation don't have a diverse leadership? Because I'm going to assume i'm going to assume and to correct me if i'm wrong that they're not that that leadership is not like explicitly racist in the sense that man there was a black candidate that applied for the associate pastor job and they're like yeah no we would actually we would actually prefer a white candidate and that but maybe the question is why aren't more black candidates applying for that job? Or is there something in the... I don't know.

I don't know what to think about that. What would you say? Why is it not happening at a leadership level? Yeah, so from the research, and I point this out in my book, Building a Multi-Ethnic Church. From the research, it is normative for black Christians to go try to integrate a white church than a white church to go to a black church to integrate it. And here's why. It's like the frog sitting in a boiling pot. The temperature gets turned up. You don't know it because you've adjusted to it. You've normalized it. And before you know it, you're dead. Well, we live in a culture where the majority culture, i.e. white brothers and sisters in Christ, still hold the keys to a lot of the power, still holds the handle to a lot of the doors. And so it's normative for us as minorities to say, hey, well, we're

going to come integrate you guys, help you become diverse. We're going to come serve you and show you how, right? But very rarely is it, I'm going to go the opposite way. And I think that there is this aspect of Eurocentric priority. Like, if a Black man does theology, it's Black theology. If a Latino man does theology, it's Latino theology. But if a white man does it, it's just theology. And so we have to be willing to challenge our own presuppositions. Also, once again, it comes down to who's at your dinner table. A lot of my white friends would say, man, Derwin, it's just hard to find, you know, people of color. And I say, well, let me see your phone books. Who are you in relationship with? French, I have Asian, Latino, Black, white, men, women, because that's of gospel value for me. So it has to start at the heart level that people matter to God, and that every nation,

tribe, and tongue is made in the image of God, and that we're missing the beauty of the fullness of God if we miss out on that. Do you like football at all? In theory, yeah, but I don't follow it. Oh, okay. So you know what an offensive lineman is, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So in the NFL, there's these big, huge guys, 6'6", 315 pounds. They're called offensive linemen. Their job is to make the other guys on the team look good. So when Tom Brady throws a touchdown pass, it's because the offensive line did their job. Well, a homogeneous church is like having only offensive linemen in your church.

You're limited. A diverse church is like having offensive linemen, but a quarterback, running back, receivers. And so that diversity allows you to be able to accomplish more. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was just reading in Ephesians this morning, and hopefully most people know that the latter half of Ephesians 2 is... Goodness, it's so hard. You would have to do serious gymnastics to get around to the fact that ethnic reconciliation is part of the goal of the cross, that Jesus died in part to reconcile us to God, Ephesians 2, 1-10, and also to reconcile us to each other, not just each other abstractly, but ethnically. Now, you and I both know that. And if you read on in Ephesians 3, Paul goes on a seeming tangent

talking about his personal mission to the Gentiles. But that whole section in chapter three is also him drawing out the importance of ethnic reconciliation. What I did notice, what I read this morning, is even in Ephesians 4, 1 to 16, which is all about Jesus ascending on high and giving gifts and pursuing the maturity and all this stuff.

I mean, this isn't, yeah. I, I, I read, I do my devotions in the Greek texts. And what I noticed is a lot of the same words that come from that, that were spelled out and articulated in Ephesians two, the big kind of multi-ethnic passage are repeated in, in Ephesians four. Ephesians four is connected to the same line of thought so that the mature man, the unity, the gifts, the diversity, all this stuff is still talking about multi-ethnic unity, not just unity abstractly. I mean, this is, and Ephesians is like Paul's like most abstract layout of the Christian faith.

And we're saying like more than half of this book is explicitly talking about this bond of peace between us and God, between us and each other, and the other is different ethnicities. I don't know how we've missed this all these years. How did I miss it until recently, you know? Yeah, Preston, what I would say is we missed it because there are dark demonic powers that want us divided. We missed it because we want to stay in our prejudices. But the beauty is that the Holy Spirit will reveal that to us. And what I would say is, even to add to what you so eloquently said, is every one of the Apostle Paul's letters, except for maybe Thessalonians 1 and 2, is dealing with how are Jews and Gentiles to become the new people of God? So now this is really important.

Because of the Western Enlightenment, we became the center of everything. enlightenment, we became the center of everything. And so therefore, even when we read the Bible, we read it like, okay, how does this affect me? And so we take passages like Ephesians 2.14, you know, Jesus is our peace. Oh, praise the Lord, I have so much peace. No, that's saying that Jesus is our peace offering, that we're no longer at enmity with God. And then it goes on to say that Jesus tore down the dividing wall and through his blood reconciled the two and made them one. What I'm writing on, and I'm spending a lot of time in my book that will be out in 2022, is the unity that Paul is speaking of is more than theological unity. Typically, we think of, okay, we believe the essentials of the faith, and Paul is drilling in on, no, the unity is the community of Jews and Gentiles. And Paul in Ephesians 2.16 actually says that we are a new kind, that we are kainos, that God took Jews and Gentiles and made actually a new humanity.

So the family of God is actually a third quote-unquote race. You got Jews, you got Gentiles, and the third family of resurrection is Jews and Gentiles. Like, you know, and so, but we teach the gospel very individualistically, and it's like, well, Jesus saved me, so all these things in Ephesians is simply just about me. And it's like, no, it's about the we. Paul was very ecclesiological in his writing. He wrote to churches to be the church, and in Ephesians 4.3, where he says, make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace, Paul is going back to Ephesians 2.14. And we have failed miserably at this. Like, the church should have been leading the way in abolition. The church should have been leading the way in civil rights. The church should have been doing all these things because it's part and parcel to the gospel. And this is what I don't understand. A lot of my friends are like, well,

you know, if we talk too much about the horizontal aspect, we could miss, you know, that Jesus saves us. And I'm going, well, tell me what save means, bro. Save means I'm saved from the penalty of sin. I'm being saved from the power of sin. I will be saved from the presence of sin, justification, sanctification, glorification. Our salvation and our cross is too small. We need a bigger one, and that's what I've tried to do in my book, Building a Multi-Ethnic Church, is to give people a bigger vision of the gospel, to enter into it so that generations from now, our kids' kids can look back and say, man, they followed Jesus in such a way that instead of adding to the ethnic division, we created ethnic unity around Christ.

Derwin, I know you got to go. You got a meeting to get to. Can you leave us with some words to those of us, like myself, who just maybe happen to be living in a more white-dominated culture? Maybe there's people out there, obviously there's people out there listening that are not pastors, they're not leaders, they're congregants. Maybe they're in a white-dominated church. That's not their preference, but the neighborhood is white-dominated. And what advice would you give to them, the people listening that are resonating with everything we're saying, but are like, man, well, how can I, how can I actually pursue this?

Yeah. So the first thing is I would say, listen to theologically sound preachers of color. So I would, I would love for you to listen to me. We have 70,000 people basically per week that tune in from around the world. So you can go to transformationchurch.tc, transformationchurch.tc. Also read books by people of color. My two latest books are The Good Life and Building a Multi-Ethnic Church. So you can get those anywhere books are sold. And then I would encourage you, read Letters from a Birmingham Jail at least once a year by Dr. King. It is a magnus opus of brilliance. It is sensualizing that this man wrote this

on the back of a napkin in jail. And then also, as best you can, try to build cross-cultural relationships. Like you're in Idaho, so build relationships with Latinos and Native Americans. host. So building relationships with Latinos and Native Americans. There's something about engaging the other. And I believe the other pulls out of us what we didn't even know existed. Okay. Man, thanks so much for being on the show, Derwin. Yeah, all your books and website and links and stuff will be listed in the show notes. So thanks for giving us your time. Thank you for what you do, man. I wish we can hang out and do ministry in person, but you know, we're still young. I'm 45, man. You're a few years older than me, but lots of time left to do this kingdom thing together somehow. Absolutely. And I'm going to, I'm going to invite you to come out and preach

to us. I think our people would love and benefit from, from you. I'd be honored. Be honored, man. All right. Take care, bro. All right, buddy. I'll talk to you later. Bye-bye. you