Theology in the Raw - 852: Have We Neglected the Ascension of Christ? Dr. Patrick Schreiner

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

Oftentimes, we don’t know what to do with the ascension. I mean, we believe in it, but we don’t often appreciate the theological necessity of it. Get your Bible’s out for this episode, because Patrick and I dance through various passages of Scripture to reconstruct the lost doctrine of the ascension of Christ.  Patrick Schreiner is Associate Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He previously taught at Western Seminary in Portland Oregon (2014–20) and received his Ph.D. from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (2014). He is the author of a number of books, including The Body of Jesus: A Spatial Analysis of the Kingdom in Matthew (T&T Clark), The Kingdom of God and the Glory of the Cross (Crossway), Matthew, Disciple and Scribe: The First Gospel and Its Portrait of Jesus (Baker),  and The Ascension of Christ: Recovering a Neglected Doctrine (Lexham Press). He has also contributed chapters to God’s Glory Revealed in Christ: Essays on Biblical Theology in Honor of Thomas R. Schreiner (B&H) and Baptists and the Christian Tradition: Toward an Evangelical Baptist Catholicity (B&H). He is married to Hannah and they have four children. They love good local food, the outdoors, sports, and he enjoys serving local churches through teaching and preaching. You can follow him on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm excited for this conversation with my friend, Patrick Schreiner. Patrick is a professor, associate professor in New Testament and biblical theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He previously taught at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon, and before that, he received his PhD from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He's the author of several books, The Body of Jesus, A Spatial Analysis of the Kingdom in Matthew, The Kingdom of God and the Glory of the Cross. Also, Matthew, Disciple and Scribe, The First Gospel and Its Portraits of Jesus. And also another book called The Ascension of Christ, Recovering a Neglected Doctrine,

which is the focus of this podcast slash YouTube conversation. We spend at least the last half talking about the importance of the ascension of Christ and all the various questions that that doctrine raises. And after talking to Patrick, I am convinced that it is a neglected doctrine, as the subtitle of his book says. It's something that I don't think we have considered as a separate essential theological category of the person and work of Jesus Christ. And we get into that. But it takes us a while to get there. We talk about lots of stuff related to the Southern Baptist Church and evangelicalism.

And we even touch just briefly on race conversations and CRT and so on and so forth. So I'm very excited for Patrick to be part of this show. And again, this show is both a podcast and a YouTube channel. So if you're on YouTube and you want the audio version, you can go to my podcast, Theology in the Raw, through Spotify, Apple iTunes, whatever, all the places where podcasts are sold. And if you're on the podcast, you want to watch it, you can go to my YouTube channel, just punch in, press the sprinkle, and it should take you there. If you want to watch it, you can go to my YouTube channel, just punch in, press the sprinkle, and it should take you there. If you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash TheologyNarrah, where you get access to premium content in return for your support of

the show. Every month I record a lengthy Q&A podcast for my Patreon-only supporters. So if you've got lots of questions and you miss, some of you email me and tell me you missed the Q&A podcast that I used to record for Theology in a Raw. Well, guess what? I am still recording those every month. I record two different Q&A podcasts for my Patreon supporters. So if that is of interest to you, then again, you can click on the link in the show notes, patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. All right, let's talk about the ascension of Jesus Christ with the one and only Dr. Patrick Schreiner. All right. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with Dr. Patrick Schreiner, or as I call him, Patrick, because doctors don't doctor each other. That's kind of weird. But Patrick, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. This is your first

time, right? First time having you on? Yeah, this is my first time, but I'm a listener. I don't know if I call myself an avid listener, because I was just telling you, you produce way too much content, which is great, but I can't keep up. So I listen to many of your episodes. Yeah, yeah. I've been trying to mix it up with biblical studies, theology, even just looking at passages or themes. And then obviously I do a lot of cultural issues and sexuality, but I, I'm trying to record more episodes, but really diversify them so people can kind of pick and choose what they

want to listen to. But yeah, anyway. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've really enjoyed hearing you talk to people on the converse race conversation and then biblical scholars.

We were just talking about Sandra Richter on like sexual abuse in the old Testament, like someone who's an expert on those kind of issues. And, you know, I'm like reading the Old Testament trying to figure out what's happening. And I think we all are. And she just brings such a helpful perspective. So I love when I see things like that. I just listened to your, Thabiti Anyabwile. Well, that was really, really helpful. I really appreciate his voice. So yeah, that was great. Do you know him? Because I because i know i mean he was really in the gospel coalition and southern seminary circles and stuff he probably wouldn't remember it but we've ran into each other a few times just in mixed circles but it's usually been crowds of like you know 20

people and somebody famous as baseman or something like that so okay yeah you're somebody famous in small circles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the first time I've actually talked to him. I've known of him for a long time. And I'll always, you know, I just, I really appreciate voices that, there was an article written a while back

called From the Edge of the Inside, where they're kind of in a distinct, maybe subculture, maybe tribe denomination, but they're not afraid to be kind of self a distinct maybe subculture maybe tribe denomination but they're not afraid to be kind of self-critical of things within that tribe that may be off um yeah if i can be honest you strike me a little bit as that i mean you were very much groomed sbc world and everything and yet you not yet but i mean you um if there was like a poster child for the SBC, Patrick Shiner probably wouldn't be kind of the... I don't know. I mean that in a positive way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like you, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, so I was trained in the SBC. My father teaches at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And, you know, I was coming out of college, Campus Crusade for Christ, into evangelism, leading Bible studies. I was a pastor at my church. And, you know, I was just kind of looking for a school where they taught the Bible and I could trust what they said. And, you know, my dad was at Southern and I got a free education there. And so I thought, this is perfect. So I went there and it was a great experience. I mean, honestly, at Southern, you do get people who know the scriptures really well, who know their

theology. And yeah, I mean, it was different in the sense that a lot of people kind of, no one really challenged the professors. That was just the culture there. I think that's a little bit of just Southern culture and respect for authority figures too, not Southern seminary, but more, um, down South, maybe a little bit culture. Um, and so, you know, you'd go through some pretty tough issues and everyone would sit there and kind of be like, yep. All right. We agree. And I'm like, whoa, like I've got some serious questions about this just in terms of, uh,

you know, I think when you challenge views that you might even hold after their challenge, you actually hold them in a better way. So moving to Western Seminary, I actually got my first teaching job at Western Seminary, which is kind of a bigger tent evangelical school, even though evangelical is a weird word to use right now in terms of on the West Coast. It's just a bunch of denominations are coming there. Calvary Chapel people, Pentecostal people, charismatic, and then Baptist, and you've got a bunch of people there. So that was a great experience for me because not everyone in the class is basically held to the authority of scriptures, but

on the secondary issues, they were truly secondary issues. And on the obviously third tier issues, it was just kind of like, you know, shrug a little bit. So now I'm back at an SBC school, which is great. know, I have, I, I tend to want to challenge my own thinking, like you said, and kind of be self-critical on some of the views that maybe I was taught or I've had. And, you know, sometimes I end up back at the same place, but I think I have a better reason for having those views. So, um, I enjoy teaching by raising tough questions and because that's the way I learn. And so, yeah, at Western, it was actually great. I mean, just kind of circling back because I had people really challenge my views there on some things because I was coming from a little bit more conservative circles than some of our students. And I thought they brought up really good points.

And actually, it's really nice to dialogue in the flesh with people. Yeah. Rather than like hearing, well, here's the summary of that view. And then you're like talking to someone, you're like, man, this is a really godly person. And like, I really like this person. And we disagree about this. And so in that sense, I think it was nice to expand kind of your view of the kingdom a little bit. And I think we all could work on that more, and I need to continue to work on that. And some of the reasons I like listening to podcasts is I get to hear from people from different circles and see that, you know, the body of Christ, each group of people is contributing something unique to it. And I think that's a helpful way to think of it rather than

thinking about, well, we don't like them because they don't do this. What about we point out what we like about them and how they're a helpful voice for us. And so that each, we could say denomination or institution or group kind of brings a different gift to the table. Yeah. No, that's just so good. And even like we were talking offline, but I've never been part of the SBC, but I've got many friends that are, and I've been in, spoken at churches and so on. And one thing that people outside the SBC sometimes don't realize is that there is quite a bit of diversity within the SBC. I mean, even, you know, we talked about different seminaries, you know, Southern Seminary or Southeastern or Midwestern where you're at now, each one has its own kind

of vibe, its tone, its kind of ethos. Would that be a right? I mean, again, I'm kind of saying that as an outsider. Would you say that there's probably a lot more even theological diversity or posture diversity within the SBC than maybe people outside don't realize? Well, yeah. I mean, I think so we're all confessional schools. So the Baptist faith and message is our confessional document. So all the professors should sit inside I mean, I think so we're all confessional schools. So the Baptist faith and message is our confessional document. So all the professors should sit inside that. And I think that's good because you kind of have a foundation from which to start. But what happens sometimes, and I want to say, like, I'm really thankful for a lot of

the things that the SBC does. And I'm actually, this is why I'm a part of the SBC. I mean, local church autonomy, credo baptism, the partnership for missions, both overseas. I mean, like all the SBC is doing is getting people together who are like-minded and saying, let's do this together. Let's reach people together. Now, obviously as you grab people and get them together, then you're going to have some squabbling and so forth and so on. But on the best days, the SBC is unified and they come together and they're seeking the kingdom of God and seeking to spread the kingdom of God. And so, I mean, there's a lot to be said for, I think, younger people like myself, pressing into institutions rather than pressing out. I think it's pretty

popular to get away from institutions because we don't like this, that detail. But, you know, we I think we all were made to partner. And so we're either going to have to create other institutions. And there's certainly time for that. There's a time when an institution maybe needs to die or we need to rethink that institution. But we're all we all want to partner with people. We don't want to be a lone ranger. So I don't even know. I can't remember what you asked in terms. Oh yeah. Diversity. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I think what happens is you have these confessional documents,

but how you parse out some of those details in terms of the application of those things, you can have some diversity in there. And what sometimes happens for like an SBC is one person will say one thing and say, well, this is this interpretation of this issue. And you'll find that, well, maybe some people in SBC don't agree with that, or maybe a lot of people don't, but they have the loudest voice. And so they're coming along and saying it sounds like, oh, the whole SBC thinks this. Well, that's not necessarily true. So right now, for example, you know, the race conversation is huge in the SBC.

And there are like three to four different people running for president right now. And they all have slightly different stances on that race conversation. So what's going to be really interesting in June, I think it is, at the SBC meeting, is who's going to be elected next president will kind of be a barometer for where the SBC stands on some of those things. And so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see, because honestly, I don't think anybody knows. Can you help us? Yeah. Well, the race conversation, and I didn't plan on talking about this, but again, I haven't followed the SBC in the race conversation, but I've heard wildly different views on where the SBC is at.

It usually depends on the person I'm talking to. Some will say, oh, they're full on SJW, CRT, embracing all this. And other people say, oh, they're just demonizing CRT. I'm like, well, which one is it? Are they floored or against it? Do they even know? Do you even know what CRT you know embracing all this and other people say oh they're just demonizing CRT I'm like which one is it are they Florida against it do they even know do you even know what CRT is you know um can you help I mean and again I don't have really the time or necessarily the interest to do a bunch of research to figure out where it's at but is there a reason why I'm confused on that or why people are giving wildly different interpretations of, I don't know, how would you describe the SBC's involvement in the race conversation from somebody who's in the SBC? Yeah, I mean, I'm coming from a white evangelical perspective and I'm a little confused myself as well.

You know, I think people are concerned and right. I haven't studied the issue of CRT as much as I should. So I'm speaking largely from ignorance. are concerned and right. I haven't studied the issue of CRT as much as I should. So just, I'm speaking largely from ignorance. Um, but I've looked into it a little bit. I just need to spend, I think, more time with it to speak more intelligently on it. Um, I think people are concerned, uh, in a good way that CRT becomes kind of a holistic worldview. And so, um, the SBC actually came out with like a resolution about CRT, which I thought was pretty careful. And you can look that up. It's like resolution nine or

something like that, or five. And they basically said, if this becomes a totalizing worldview, that's not helpful, which I think that's true for any outside worldview. Like we have a totalizing worldview in the scripture. We have a meta narrative in the scripture. But then that resolution also said there's probably things within CRT, which can be helpful for us as we think through how we interact in a modern society with racial animosity and with racism kind of baked into our systems and our institutions. And so I thought that resolution was personally, and I don't know if everyone at SBC agrees with this,

but we had a resolution on it, which, again, who even knows what that means? I sometimes get confused if that's the whole SBC coming behind it. But I thought it was a pretty balanced view of it. behind it. But I thought it was a pretty balanced view of it. I would say, I think we need to do more listening to our black and brown brothers and sisters. Because it, you know, sometimes we can just assume that there's a certain worldview coming if you hear certain like social justice or whatever it is. And I, I think we just need to talk to one another, you know, like social justice or whatever it is and i i think we just need to talk to one another you know like let's sit down and like discuss these things um because it it just feels like online there's a lot of grenades being launched at one another which is totally

not helpful is that axe is your is that was that the subject of your dissertation or is that more of a recent focus no that's i'm actually reading through it again because i'm editing a commentary right now on it so i have a 700 page commentary coming out in it next year wow whoa wait for which series so it's the old knack series new american commentary series you know the red and blue yeah they're redoing that series and making the covers better which i'm very happy about i like that i like that series yeah i do too it's a good series are they gonna rename it though a new american or no yeah it's um it's called the christian standard commentary because it's using the csb bible oh perfect oh good good yeah um i yeah that series has a good i feel like balance

between careful act of jesus but it's not so deep and thorough that you just get lost, you know. Right. So that comes out of SBC, but it's a wider commentary than just SBC authors. So it's kind of fun because I'm writing within the tradition, but we have authors that sit outside the SBC in that series. So what was your dissertation again? I want to ultimately get to your book on the Ascension. That was the main reason why I wanted you to come on the podcast. We got lost in all these other cultural conversations. But yeah, so tell us about your dissertation just briefly, and then maybe the work you've been doing, some interests of yours since then.

Yeah, so my dissertation, I don't want to get into the weeds too much here, again, to spare your listeners, but I was interested in the space or the locale of the kingdom, in Matthew particularly, because I thought we talk about the kingdom and we're like, well, it's the sovereignty of God. I'm like, that's a systematic theology concept, which is great, but that's not what the kingdom is. The kingdom is a new city, a new realm, a new place, a new land. So I wanted to think about how the kingdom was present now in a spatial sense or a place sense. So I actually looked at a bunch of geographers and philosophers and tried to think through what is space and place? How do you change it? And I applied kind of a theory of space and place to the gospel of Matthew to try to think through

how does Jesus bring the kingdom of God if it's already not yet, or the kingdom of heaven, as he says, kingdom of heaven now. And I basically landed on, well, it's through Jesus's body, and as his presence touches other people, then the kingdom spaces are created. Now, that won't be in full. But if you've watched, it's funny because I got to Western and Bible Project released a video that summarized my dissertation in five minutes. I'm like, oh, perfect. There, now I didn't have to do that work. But they have videos where Jesus touches people and then there's like this circle that goes

around them you know what I mean like he heals that space too and so I was thinking a lot sociologically like when he heals people they're reintroduced into society to actually function in a flourishing way and that's all based on Jesus's body like literally his human body but then according to Matthew, that presence is also given to the church. So it started with Matthew. And then I did another book on Matthew and now Acts is my new thing. So going back to your dissertation, though, so is there like a, did you explore, expand upon, I'm just, I've never thought about this in these terms until you just said that, but the relationship between the kingdom of God and the renewal of creation, these two really important themes.

It sounds like you're saying that these are very much intertwined in the individual acts of Jesus bringing the kingdom to earth, so to speak? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's giving pictures of the kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God coming to earth. And that will be finally consummated on the last day with the new heavens and kingdom of God coming to earth. And that will be finally consummate on the last day with the new heavens and new earth coming down to earth. So I was pressing into that. I mean, you have a new book on embodied reality. It's an embodied thing. But I was also looking socially at, you know, when we think of space, we only think of physical space, but we also have ideological space. So there's spaces where you have raw conversations. Like

this is an ideological space where we talk about Christianity and culture and different things on this podcast. Um, but city planners and geographers and philosophers are also talking about this thing called third space where you can actually change. Now I'm getting into it, Preston. Do it, man. Do it. Or you can actually change how spaces and people interact in those spaces. And it's almost like the not yet or what it can be. And, you know, actually that concept didn't click for me until somebody gave the Rosa Parks example where she recognized that changing a physical space will change culture. a physical space will change culture. So she sat down on the bus and would not get up trying to change culture by the physical bus seat. You know what I mean? And so she was trying to create by

that a third space. And she did ultimately, I mean, it took time and we're still working on it, right? But she did by saying, I imagine we're up time where I don't have to go to a certain part of the bus or have it worked. I don't remember all the details of the story, but she protested in that moment. And I think in many ways, Jesus is going around looking at pain and sickness and death and social ostracization and marginalization. And he's saying, I imagine these spaces differently, and I'm going to make that happen. That's really cool, man. And it doesn't sound very typical in kind of the assumptions people have

about the kingdom of God or even the focus or concerns of Jesus. Is that in a popular level book, or is it just tucked away in your dissertation archives? Yeah, it's in a, it's not popular cause it's LN, you know, you might know what this is. LNTS. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. I just saw on Kindle right now it's $20 on Amazon.

So if you're interested, go for it. Oh, that's, I think my dissertation is like a hundred dollars or something. Yeah. I have like two reviews on Amazon. It's, it's killing it. It's killing it. Okay. So let's move into your, is this your latest book of the Ascension of Christ or have you written one since then? Yeah, that's my latest book. Yep. So the subtitle is Recovering a Neglected Doct how, what does that mean?

So how is the ascension of Christ a neglected doctrine? And I'm just trying to throw you a softball here, but I'm really, I'm curious. I remember when I came across the book, I haven't read it yet. Yeah. But I was like ascension to Christ.

I was like, but it was a subtitle like, well, we all believe in the ascension, right? I mean, everybody believes he rose from the dead and went up to heaven. So what, what about this is neglected? And I had some ideas. I'm like, whoa, we all believe in the Ascension, right? I mean, everybody believes he rose from the dead and went up to heaven. So what about this is neglected? And I had some ideas. I'm like, oh, he's probably going to say this, this. So anyway, so yeah.

No, you probably have better ideas than I do. You can write the next book on the Ascension. So one of the examples I love to give from actually church culture is that, you know, well, let me start with, yeah, let me start with church culture. When we think about Christ's work, even our low church traditions in terms of our holidays, what do we celebrate, right? We celebrate the incarnation at Christmas. We celebrate Good Friday, Jesus's death, and then we celebrate resurrection. Like if you're in a low church tradition, you usually follow those. If you're in a higher church tradition, you're going to keep going. And it actually struck me, what do we think about Easter Sunday?

We think that's the victory and that's the end. Now, it is the victory. But according to actually church calendars from the past, Anglicans, Catholics, other higher church traditions, there's 40 days after that. There's Ascension Sunday. And then a week after that, there's Ascension Sunday. And then a week after that, there's Pentecost Sunday. And I got, I started thinking about that and I thought, you know, they're actually teaching us something about Christ's work, that Christ's work is not complete after the resurrection, but we kind of think it is. Because when we talk about the gospel, if we even get to the resurrection, first we need to get to the resurrection, right? In terms of the new life.

But Jesus's work, the ascension is not just a rubber stamp upon the resurrection. It's an event in its own right. And you know it's an event in its own right because it's narrated as a different event. And Luke and John, Jesus says to Mary, don't cling to me. I still need to ascend to the Father. And so certainly they're a part of the same singular script in terms of the victory of Christ, the vindication of Christ. So one of the reasons I think we neglect it is because there's times in the New Testament where they'll just say the exaltation of Christ. And I think they're talking about the resurrection and the ascension, but we just think about the resurrection. That's all we think about.

We just say, well, yeah, the exaltation of Christ, or the victory of Christ, that's just his rising from the dead. But the resurrection and the ascension are different in that the resurrection proclaims that Jesus lives in that forever. The ascension proclaims that Jesus reigns in that forever. So the famous, I'd love to hear what you think in terms of other things we could hit on, but Acts 1, right? When the disciples ask, are you going to restore the kingdom of Israel at this point? And Jesus is like, no, not at this time. And then he ascends and they're kind of looking and the angels come and they say, what are you doing looking into heaven?

Like you got to get going, basically. I think a lot of times we're in the same place as the disciples. We're a little confused about why Jesus needed to ascend because we know the best end state is to be with Jesus in bodily form. But if he's already victorious, why did he ascend to the heavens? Like what? What is that good? Is that like just waiting time? Is he just up there kind of twiddling his thumbs, waiting for all enemies to be put under his footstool? So my book

wants to press in and say, no, no, this is a really important kind of climax, actually, to Jesus's work. This is something that we have to talk about. And it's not only that, but Jesus continues to work in heaven. He's a better, I structured as prophet, priest, and king. He's a better prophet, priest, and king now that he's in heaven. So on earth, he was a prophet, priest, and king, but he's actually been thrust into a new gear in heaven in that sense. I'm curious, so many passages are coming to mind. I was thinking about Psalm 110, but I don't know if that.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. But then I thought, no, wait a minute. What about Daniel 7 when Daniel sees one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven and he approached the ancient days and it was given to him authority to rule and glory in the kingdom and those of every people, all this stuff. And it was given to him authority to rule and glory in the kingdom and those of every people, all this stuff. If we want to get really specific and kind of chronological, this event, the Son of Man approaching the Ancient of Days and receiving the kingdom, isn't that the ascension? Like he goes back and he goes to the right hand of the Father and the Father goes, here you go.

Here's your kingdom. So is that a right assumption that the Daniel 7 vision, which is essential to New Testament theology, Daniel 7 is? I mean, I think, so you have in my kingship chapter, you have three hot spots in the New or Old Testament in terms of they quote it all over the place or allude to it. Daniel 7, Psalm 110.1 and Psalm 2. And guess what? All of those texts, I think, are about the ascension. Oh, wow. Okay. Oh. You know what I mean? Like, this is all, I love those texts because you're actually getting, well, at least with Psalm 110.1, the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make all enemies your footstool. Psalm 2, you are my son, today I've begotten you. You're getting the speech that happened when Jesus ascended, like you're entering the heavens and the father is looking at the son and saying,

you are my son today. I've begotten you. This is a picture of the king. I mean, this is what I tell my kids, like this is coronation day frozen, right? Like becoming king, like this is, or queen, this is what's happening, right? And so, yeah, I, in that text, Daniel 7, I mean, if you go down to verse 14, what does it say? So that all kingdoms and nations and people groups might serve him? So that every people, nation, language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion and will not pass away. His kingdom will be one that will not be destroyed. That's right. So you only have, I mean, the way I like to talk about with Acts is we talk about the mission to the ends of the earth. That's based on the mission of the son of man to the right hand of the father first. You only have a mission to the ends of the earth

because Jesus has been enthroned as king overall. There is a shift in the New Testament that happens at that point. Now, throughout the whole Old Testament, there's people that are being welcomed in, but the official go and tell, Matthew 28, Acts 1, happens after the ascension. Now, Matthew 28 is confusing because he actually doesn't ascend there, but he alludes very clearly to Daniel 7 with all authority and heaven on earth has been given to me. That's Daniel 7. He's proleptically talking about the ascension as he says, I'm going to be with you always

going to the ends of the earth. Well, I'm also thinking about the upper room discourse in John 14 to 16, where I must go away. I don't know the exact language so that I could send the spirit. He doesn't say I must just rise from the dead, but I must like, right? Is He doesn't say, I must just rise from the dead, but I must, like, right? I mean, I must leave so that the Spirit would come.

And part of me is like, well, can't you both just hang out with us? You know, Jesus, you and the Spirit doing the dynamic duel. But for whatever reason, it's built into Jesus' message that for me to go is necessary for the Spirit to come. And he says, he says, it's better that I go. I think John 16, 7 or 17 or 16, seven. That's a crazy paddle to do with that. Yeah. That's crazy. So why is it? And this is what I had to meditate on. Why is it better that he goes away? And why John 14, 12, he says, truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I

do. And he will do even greater works than these because I'm going to the, because I'm going to the father. And I'm like, oh, that's based on ascension. So I had to meditate on that. And here's what I came to. I could be wrong, but here's what I came to. It's better that we have this spirit because Jesus was limited by his body, his physical body. So Jesus traveled a very small amount of space on this earth. Like if you think, if you pull out a map and a globe and put your fingers around where Jesus traveled, like your fingers are an inch apart, right? Depending on the size of the globe, obviously. But the spirit is able to indwell every single believer, and it's the Spirit of Jesus. So, the people who have the Spirit can do greater works than Jesus because they can more expansively

spread Christ's work because they're more widely dispersed. We have people who have the Spirit of Jesus in China, in South America, in Japan, in Australia, you know what I mean? Like all of Russia, all across the world. And they have the same spirit of Jesus, the same spirit that anointed Jesus at his baptism, who empowered him to do works of healing and works of proclaiming the word of God. So it's really important that we get the spirit because that work can actually expand in a new way. And then I would say second, it's greater works because it refers to the prophetic role after Jesus is completed work. We're not just pointing, Jesus is pointing at himself. We're pointing back to what Jesus has done on the cross. So there's also an eschatological reality, but

it's better that he goes away because the spirit era is a better era. Jesus says, so like, this is what I tell my students and this, this still shocks me. I'm like, would you rather be a disciple of Jesus or would you rather live now? And everyone's like disciple of Jesus, of course. Right. Like, but not according to John, like John says it's better. And I, I think I still struggle with that in one way because we're still waiting to be with him. But I just have to respect Jesus's words that he says, no, it's better if I go away for now. So we've got to wrestle with that. I've always struggled with those two.

Yeah, the two verses in John 14 to 16, the two that you referenced, chapter 16, it's better that I go away. And then 14, 12, greater works you will do like greater works than G, but which, so. So I think the body is doing greater works in the sense than the head, because they can spread out and do them more. Okay. Do you, do you think that that, I mean, this is a whole nother discussion. Do you think that that, I mean, this is a whole nother discussion, but my, and I would say I'm, I don't know what this means, but lowercase C charismatic, whatever. I believe the sign gifts are for today, even though like I don't, many times I feel like they're not, I don't want to get into that. Like they're not – I don't want to get into that. But do you think that that verse is talking about, look, Jesus did miraculous works by the power of the Holy Spirit. You also will have the same Holy Spirit.

You're going to do even more in a sense because you're not one body like I am. You're the multi-global body doing these works. But it is kind of – it is an argument I I guess, in favor of what's the term against cessationism or whatever. Right. So you could interpret it under a non-charismatic way or a more charismatic way, but it sure seems like when he says greater works than these, well, Jesus is healing the blind, causing them to walk. And we're like, wait, are we seeing this? Well, I do think we see that worldwide in terms of what believers are doing through the power of the Spirit. So I think we individualize this.

So we're like, I want to do greater works, but what about the body of Christ doing greater works? That's kind of the point I'm trying to get to. Okay. No, that's helpful. I've often, just as you're talking, I thought of, and this is all over the place in scripture.

At the end of Ephesians 1, where it talks about the fullness of Jesus, or the fullness of God in Christ in the body, which is his church. Oh, this is another ascension passage, actually. I didn't realize. Here's my point. When you see the ascension, when you see the ascension you'll see it everywhere in uh chapter 1 verse 20 if you just 120 he just demonstrated god father demonstrated his power in the messiah of erasing him from the dead and seating and seating him at the right hand in the heavens um far above every ruler authority power dominion every title given not only in this age, but also the age to come. And he put everything under his feet.

And here's where I've always, the end of Ephesians 1 has blown my mind. And he's appointed God the Father, has appointed Jesus as head over everything for the church, which is his body. But then he says, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way or fills all in all, and that's the filling language throughout Ephesians. But what this says is that the fullness of God dwells in the body of Christ post-ascension, which I never even thought about this passage linked to kind of what we've been talking about, that it's better for him to go so that the Spirit can dwell in a corporate global body of Christ.

But he says that's the fullness of Jesus. Yeah. And I think it lines up with John 14 perfectly, that we are to go and fill the world with his presence. And that language is coming from Genesis and like, go fill the earth, right? And Exodus, and they're multiplying, filling the earth. This is the original command. This is the creation command.

And you know what? You know who can't do it? We can't do it, but Christ can. And as Christ lives in us, we go out and we still, that's the original creation mandate. We fill the earth with his presence. And so, yeah, what's shocking about that though, is it's, it's both Jesus. This is the mystery of union with Christ. It's both Christ filling all things, but it's also his body because the head cannot be disconnected from the body now.

And that's where it's like blowing our mind that the head is in heaven and the body is on earth. And the body is the hands and feet of Jesus filling the earth with his presence. And I think that should be encouraging to Christians as, and you're like, oh, so that means doing like all these amazing things. Well, what if it's just spreading a word of comfort? You know what I mean? Like not just, but it's like, it's, you're actually bringing Christ to people or saying your sins are forgiven as you repent in Christ. Like that's bringing the body of Jesus. It's filling the earth with his presence in that sense. So, um, I mean, we could get more charismatic than that and talk about the sign

gifts. Yes. But I think we also want to think about the power of the word and the truth that as we bring healing and peace, shalom to people, that is the body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. Yeah, yeah. No, it's good. I was just reading Ephesians this morning and like just the, or Ephesians 4, and like just the emphasis on unity within diversity. And I think ethnic diversity is a huge thread woven throughout, I mean, one through four, but especially two, three, and four. But what you said, within that diversity, you could have one who's a Billy Graham evangelist, another person who spreads words of comfort to his neighbors. But the whole point is, we need the diversity. Not everybody should have the same kind of maybe visible, like just like celebrity kind of, not celebrity, but I mean, just like sometimes we can get, I think, have this

kind of unbiblical hierarchy of kind of gifts when the very definition of this diversity of gifts is the diversity. Like we need the things that seem small, the things that seem big. And that's part of the beauty of the body of Christ. Yeah. And Ephesians 4 has the ascension when he ascended on high, right? What's your take on that? I literally just was looking at that this morning again. That's such a weird verse. And he quotes Psalm 68, I think. Psalm 68. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that is referring to the Ascension. He took captives captive. So this is where I went back and forth on that. One time I taught Ephesians, I said, now this gets into the descent to the dead too, because it's talking about his descent. But I think for a while there,

I argued the descent to the dead was he took captives captive as in he brought the Old Testament saints up to the father because they were resting Abraham's bosom in Sheol, which is not the place of torment. You know, there's the underworld, which is divided. So that would be a positive view. He took Abraham and his children up to the father because now he's ascending. But based on Psalm 68, I think he takes captive captive. That's like a triumphal procession. And he's actually, it's like first Peter, when he's wagging his finger at the sons of God, the angels and saying, I won, I'm victorious. You've maybe read second temple literature. You know, there's in first Enoch, there's like multiple levels of heaven. So some of them say he took these

angelic beings and he threw them into like the different seventh heaven or fourth heaven. I don't remember what it was, which is another kind of holding cell for them. So probably the best image that comes to mind is a Caesar returning from his city, carrying his captives. He would bring them up to the Capitol and he'd step on their neck and like chop off their heads or their thumbs or whatever and said, I just conquered them. That's the picture we have when Christ ascended on high, he's actually conquering, but I think he's conquering not people, but spiritual forces. That's Ephesians is spiritual forces. What are we fighting against? We're not fighting against one another. We're fighting against the forces of death and darkness. So again, for our listeners, this is Ephesians 4.8, where it just kind of goes into a little tangent about the ascension of Jesus ascending on high. And it says he took prisoners into captivity, or the word there is, it's the same word. It's he took captives into captivity. So you're saying the captives could be believers that he bought back or it could be spiritual enemies that he triumphed over.

And you're leaning towards the triumph. I'm leaning towards the triumph. And even he gave gifts to his people. When a conquering general or Caesar would come back in a triumphal procession, they would shower gifts that they gathered from these other lands upon the people. Like look at all this booty that we got, you know what I mean? Like, and they, they'd give them the coins and all these, uh, this armor. And, and so that's the imagery he's giving. So I think the captives captive is probably negative. I could go back and forth. I mean, this is very similar. Is it second Corinthians four where Paul's being led in the triumphal procession himself?

2, I think it's 2 Corinthians 2. 2 Corinthians 2, that's right. Yeah. But he talks about it in a way where he's like, I am the dead one, but spreading life. Right. Which is such a cool imagery. He's like, I have the stink, the aroma of death on me. But to those who understand, it's the aroma of life because this is Jesus taught us the way to life is through death. Okay.

Wow. Gosh. Well, that's a lot of stuff. So the descent into the lower parts of the earth. I got two questions about that. Yeah. So I'm glad you said it about 1 Peter 3 because 1 Peter 3 talks about Jesus preaching to the spirits, I think now in prison or spirits in prison. And I think that's clearly him announcing victory over the,

I would even say specifically the watchers from Genesis 6. Genesis 6. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. And that's, again, if you're a second temple Jew, there's no real dispute about that. It's modern Christians who wonder about that. Are you saying that that's basically what's being even more subtly referenced here in Ephesians 4, the ascending to the lower parts? Yeah, most people don't take it this way, but I think it fits so well with the rest of our Bible. Most people take he descended to the lower parts of the earth as the incarnation. But I think in Ephesians, the whole theology of

Ephesians is that Christ is conquered in every realm. And so that's the spiritual realm. So to say he descended to the lower parts of the earth, he could have just said to the earth, but he actually modifies it with the lower parts of the earth, according to their cosmology, how they viewed the world. There was the heavens, there was the earth, and there was the underworld. And I think Ephesians 4 is saying Christ was on earth, he's in the heavens, and he even went down to the lower parts of the earth and conquered there too. So no space that you know of, we're back to the space conversation, right? No space that you know of has not been conquered by Christ. Oh, that's beautiful, dude. That's, that's, uh, so you, you mentioned ancient Cosmo. I was actually going to ask you about that.

That was my second question. So, um, yeah, that makes sense. And I, it's, what's interesting is this is even in the apostles creed. Yep. Yep. Like, which is the most stripped down basic, like here are kind of the essentials of the faith. And part of that

is his right i forget the language but descending to hades right yeah it's descending to the dead but you should read my friend matt emerson's book he descended to the dead uh he's done a lot of work on this and what he pointed out is the original latin is has been translated he descended to hell but it's actually he descended to the dead oh Oh, the dead, not Hades or Tartarus. Well, I mean, it's, you know, um, I don't remember all the language. Like I just remember that I've researched it enough that where it says he descended, the original translation was he descended to the dead, not to hell. So I think we've got it a little confused. Hell, this is actually where we get confused about heaven and the new heavens and new earth too. Heaven is an intermediate state and so is Sheol or Hades or the realm of the dead. The final end state is hell and new heavens and

new earth in that sense. So when it says he descended in the creed, and a lot of times we translate it to hell, I don't think he went to that final state, whatever that is, right? He went down to the realm of the dead, which it seems like Christians throughout the centuries have actually affirmed that. And it's evangelicals more recently who have been like, well, we don't like this descended to hell language. Even Calvin was like, that's probably what's going on in the cross. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. There's enough verses where there's the sign of Jonah in Matthew 12, there's Ephesians 4, there's 1 Peter 3, and I'm even forgetting some. There's Acts 2, that the cords of Sheol cannot entangle him.

And so there's just enough verses, I think, that it's really important, not only that he ascended, but that he descended before that. So wait, wait. So yeah, what happened between his death and resurrection? When you say he went down to the realm of the dead, is that just a synonym for he actually died? He went the way of all humanity? Yeah, he died like every human being. And I think his soul went down to the realm of the dead.

I think this affirms that we have souls. And there was a debate in early Christology. Is it Apollinarianism? Where they debated whether he had a soul. And so they actually included this in many of the creeds to affirm that he had a soul. And so they actually included this in many of the creeds to affirm that he had a soul. So he went down as a soul. It's getting complicated, right, Preston? Here we go. Dude, keep going, man. This is good stuff. I mean, it's in the creed. It's in the Apostles' Creed. This is like what children running in the streets in the third century would

talk about on the way home from school. So he went down as a soul and he proclaimed victory. This is the narrative, at least I think it is. You could put it together in a few different ways. He went down as a soul and he proclaimed victory. He was raised then from the dead three days later, received his glorified body and then ascended to the right hand of the Father. In Ephesians 4, they kind of compress that story a little bit. They don't get, you know what I mean? Like you can do compressed versions of it. But I think that those three days, that's what Jesus was doing. He was declaring victory to the, to the realm of the dead. And that would have been a big, like, we don't have that same worldview in terms of the realm of the dead. So I think that's why we're a little confused about it,

but it's really important that Jesus conquers. He conquered the spiritual forces on earth. He conquered the spiritual forces in the underworld. And now he's ascended to the right hand of the Father. And, you know, is it Isaiah? Oh, gosh, where it's the, you know, it's talking about the king of Babylon. But we also think it might be Satan who tries to ascend to the heavens. Yeah.

I mean, I think. Yeah. Isaiah 14. Yeah, Isaiah mean, I think all the spiritual forces... Yeah, Isaiah 14, that's right. All the spiritual forces, their goal all along has been to be crowned the highest king, but only according to Daniel 7 is the human one. The beasts aren't the ones who are animated according to revelation by the spiritual forces, right? The beasts, these non-kosher animals, they're the ones that are trying to claw their way to heaven, but the truly human one, the humble one, is the one who ascends. What do you do with, this is the question I wanted to ask, and this is slightly different.

This has to do with maybe science and even maybe inerrancy or inspiration. What do you do with the easy, the adoption of an ancient cosmology? You know, the things on earth and heavens on earth and under the earth. And he descended to the lower parts of the earth. But we know, or do we? That if we drill the hole, then we're going to hit lava and rock. We're not going to enter into some cave of Hades. I don't think we will. I haven't tried it.

I'm not planning to. If you dig far enough, they say you come out in China. That's what they told me as a kid. Yeah, right. Do we just say – just to lay my cards out, I'm very comfortable with ancient writers adopting an ancient cosmology and not expecting them to have modern scientific knowledge. I don't personally think that conflicts with a, well, I would say a better view of inerran, yeah, what, what would your view on that?

Like, like when, when Peter, when, when Paul's writing this, like, yeah, he maybe actually did think he literally went to the lower parts of the earth or is he just playing on the worldview of the day or. Well, when you're describing spirit, I think all good views of inerrancy affirm this when you're describing spiritual beyond our capabilities of understanding realities, you use images and language that we would understand. That's analogical language. And so is there literally a realm of the dead? Depends what you mean by literally. I think there is a realm of the dead, but is it physical? Well, I don't know, because it's kind of a soulish place, you know, like it

kind of goes beyond our conception of space and time in that sense. So yeah, you can't go as high as you can into the heavens and find Jesus, just like you can't go down to the lower parts of the earth and find the realm of the dead. They were using up and down language because typically up meant towards God and down meant away from God. And, you know, honestly, that's the way language works. That's how we speak too. I've ascended to the heights by selling this many books. I'm on top of it. What do I mean? I'm literally on top of a mountain when I'm like, man, I've had such a great day. I've just had this amazing high. Well, what, what am I talking? You know what I mean? Like we just use that same language too.

Um, and so we, we, we use metaphorical language to describe our reality. Now, what were they actually thinking? That's a whole nother question, right? In terms of, did he actually think there's a realm of the dead? Well, like you said, it doesn't even bother me if he thinks there was a physical realm of the dead because it's a true concept. It's not a non-true concept, but they just describe it as the underworld. So that's kind of the way I go with it. Similar to, I mean, when we say sunset, I assume the word sunset did derive from a time and era when they believed the sun did actually do the setting. And yet that has still had a lasting effect on our language today. And that's an inexact parallel, but that could be similar to

Paul here. The one that really is hard for me, and there's several that are hard for me, is that one of numbers when the earth opened up and swallowed, I forget the tribe, and it says they went down into Hades. Korah, yeah. Yeah, the sons of Korah. And it's like, oh man, that seems to be building this cosmology into the very narrative where it's like,

I want to say, no, they didn't actually fall into the very narrative where it's like, I want to say, no, they didn't actually fall into the underworld cave, you know? Yeah. I don't know. But could that be, again, just metaphorical, like literally there was an earthquake and the earth opened up at God's command

and swallowed them and the people can't see them anymore and their worldview was, they go to Hades then. Like David even says, I don't want to go to Sheol. I don't want to go to Hades because I can't praise you in the same way in that realm. Yeah, that's true. Where Sheol is like a metaphor for just I'm dead. I'm dead. Yeah, it's the place of the dead.

So yeah, I mean I'm all about – people get nervous when you talk about souls. They're like, oh, that's so platonic. And I'm like, well, is it platonic? you talk about souls, they're like, oh, that's so platonic. And I'm like, well, is it platonic? I totally believe in embodied realities. And that's the final end state in the new heavens, new earth. We receive Jesus's incarnation affirms embodied realities. Jesus's glorified body, Jesus's ascension affirms, like he's still a man, right? He brings his body up to the highest heavens. At the same time, man, the biblical worldview seems to have a place for the soul too. Let me ask you this.

I've often thought about this too. Now I have an expert on the line I could ask. We often say that, okay, so heaven is a intermediate state. It's where our disembodied souls go between our personal death and our future resurrection. Jesus is there, Philippians 1, if I die, I'll be with Christ. Jesus has a body. But how do I imagine that? He has a physical body in a disembodied space where my disembodied soul is going to be with a body person. Like, have you thought about this? Is there an answer? Or is it just kind of one of those things like, oh, we don't know how to piece it together? I've meditated on this way too long and I have

no good answers. I, you know, I mean, I'll just say a few things. Number one, like Jesus has a glorified body. And so we're not entirely sure what that's like. We do know he can go through walls and he can eat fish. That's about the only hints. Like he can still eat and he still has scars, right? Thomas touches his scars. So there's something, and that's an interesting thing to meditate upon, upon like there's something real about our bodies here,

which might go into the eschaton. You know, they also don't recognize him and they do recognize him. So I don't know. Like I'm, I always look young. Maybe I'll look old when I'm finally old, but while I look young, I'm always in the new heavens and new earth. I don't know. Now I'm getting off on it.

So when Jesus goes to the highest heavens, is that a place or is that beyond our, again, it's beyond our conception of a place. If he has a body, it kind of has to be a place. But at the same time, does it have to be a place? Because he has a glorified body. So maybe it doesn't have to be in the same way. So I think we need to go back and watch the movie interstellar more and think about like different realms and stuff like that and, and get into the, Holy, no, that, no, that's because, because I, I do think we're with him in our souls and he has a body and that's about as far as we can speak. They weren't interested in giving a scientific like, well, this is how it happens. This is I always like to say, you know, when I was writing this book on the Ascension, I was actually preaching sermons on it.

And I remember walking around outside, looking up into the sky. It was a great day where a bunch of clouds were there. And I was just thinking about the disciples. And I was like, so what so what happened after he got outside of our atmosphere? Did he need a space suit at that point? Like, all right, here you go. Let's hook you up and get you up here. No, that like going up was both a symbolic and real and historical reality. But we evangelicals, I think, are a little bit hesitant to talk about the symbol of it.

Yeah. It is truly symbolic and truly real. symbol of it. Um, yeah, it is truly symbolic and truly real. And we, yeah, we just, yeah, it just doesn't give us details in terms of how that worked out after he, like after the clouds took him to, well, where'd he go? I, to the heavens, to the heavens. I don't know. Like what, I don't know what that means. It does kind of, the whole idea of Jesus going up does, in the first century context, has a flat earth assumption, which is interesting when you think about, you know, or Jesus returning the same way that he came. Oh, he's going to come from the sky. Well, we just think like he's going to come to the American skies and not the Chinese skies, even though that's on the other side. Or him going up from Palestine is actually going away from. It's kind of going the opposite direction is the other side of the earth.

I don't know. And that's where we need to expand. So every eye will see him when he returns. How does that work on our round earth? I have no idea. But I think the disciples could watch him go go and we're going to be able to watch him come. Yeah. Like the, if, if God created space and how it's functions, I think he can kind of overcome that one and it'll be okay. I don't know. Like that, it just doesn't seem

probably like a big deal to him. And he's like, I got this. Don't worry about it. Isn't it funny? The more, the more you learn, the more you study, the more degrees you get, the more years you study the Bible, the more questions you raise that you can't answer. It's like, this is where, yeah, sometimes I do feel like I had more figured out 20 years ago, but part of it was, I didn't, I wasn't asking nearly as many questions as I do now. Maybe that's why we don't live to 750 anymore. I don't know. Hey, real quick, I'm going to let you go.

It's been over an hour, but tell us just briefly the book you're working on now, right? A book on politics. Is that right? Oh, yeah. Is it done? Yeah, first draft is almost together, but I want to think more in Mediterranean. So this is really raw thoughts for theology in the raw. So I am working on a book on political discipleship, looking at the New Testament and basically looking at how Jesus, Paul or the church and Revelation interacts with the empire.

Because I found that a lot of people are doing work on the empire and how Christians interact with them, but they're not connecting it to our political discipleship as many people aren't doing that popular work. So I'm taking an academic conversation and trying to bring it to how we interact with the political realm in our modern day post-Trump era. So my basic thesis is that, and I can give it in narrative or in kind of logical form, I could give it in narrative form first because it's easier to grasp, I think. When Paul goes into Thessalonica, he's accused of turning the world upside down and defying the decrees of Caesar. And actually that word of turning the world upside down, you could translate that as subverting the empire, actually, if you look at the Greek really carefully. And that actually goes with defying

the decrees of Caesar. However, in Acts, Paul is also the one who appeals to Caesar, claims he's a Roman citizen, and declares that he's innocent of all charges against Caesar. So I'm trying to take this idea of submission and subversion and say both of those actually go together. And what we've done is we've emphasized one or the other. So Christianity, the problem is Christianity has been either part in his eyes, part in his eyes. How do you say that word? Partisan or private. Yeah. Or privatized. Yeah. But it's fully political. It's fully political. But what we mean by political is that number one, yes, it's subversive to every other kingdom of this earth.

But number two, it submits to every kingdom of this earth. And somehow those two actually go together. And what we need to do is figure out that paradox and that tension of Jesus's kingdom is not of this world, but Jeremiah says, seek the good of the city and you can be a Roman soldier. And you know what I mean? Like you can do all these soldiers are welcome. It doesn't seem like you have to quit. So I'm just, I'm trying to kind of take that idea of subversion and submission and push it through the whole New Testament. And I think that actually works in Revelation too. There's a very subversive protest element to it.

But what does he tell them to do in light of it? He says have victory, but have victory by waiting, by witnessing, and by not worshiping the beast. Don't worship politics. And then Paul's, like like another way to put it is Revelation 13 and Romans 13 must go together. Right. Like you have submit to them because they're appointed by God, but then it's also a beast. Like it's, it's also, uh, it's the spawn of Satan. And so how, why do we submit to the spawn of Satan? And like, what, that doesn't make any sense. So that's the tension I'm trying to kind of deal with,

and then take that to our modern political climate and say, Christians, we need to, we need to think about how we interact with the governing authorities and that we can both be subversive and submissive at the very same time. And actually, I would say, we're probably subversive through submission, that they don't understand. The rulers of this world don't, like at the trial with Jesus, Pilate looks at him and he's like, you're a king, but you're innocent. I don't have the categories to understand what kingdom you're advocating for. So we've got to be in our post-Christian era, those who might come before courts, but they should be able to look at us and say, you're the best citizens we have. Now, that might not always work out. Like Paul, just head chopped off.

Jesus was crucified, right? So you might be condemned. But according to Acts, what you see is that Paul believes he's innocent. He's innocent of all charges. I have not defied the decrees of Caesar. I can even appeal to Caesar. I can go before the king of this empire and say, I'm proclaiming another king, but guess what? He's not even after your throne. He's got a higher throne that goes way beyond you. He's actually placed you there so I can submit to you. So that's kind of like where I'm going towards. And then I want to draw a lot of modern application. Is that a cabin, like Kevin

Rose work a world upside down? Doesn't he do something like that? Similar in acts. It's, it's taking Kevin Rose thesis and basically pushing it to the whole new Testament and then asking, okay, how does that apply to our modern era? I, I read Kevin Rose work and I was basically taken by it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Joey, yeah. You know, Joey Dodson, he he's yeah. He still gets on me for now. I I've actually officially never finished the book and he doesn't understand why I never finished it. I'm like, dude, I, I don't finish most books I start, but I love the parts that I read. And it seems, whenever I read through Acts, I'm like, it does seem that this is

an explicit point that they are subverting the empire, yet they've never done anything illegal. Like they've never violated an actual law, even though they have disrupted culture. And the riot in Ephesus is a classic example. The preaching of the kingdom crushes the economy of the city, which is based on idolatry. And yet they haven't done anything wrong. They haven't done anything illegal. Yeah, maybe even Kavanaugh says this. He says, sedition?

Like, question mark? No. We're not here to be insurrectionists. We're not here to storm the Capitol. Like, you know what I mean? Like we're not here to do that, but guess what we are? We're here for a new culture, which automatically challenges the ideology of the day. Like, so yeah, I mean, I I'm going to put in the preface, basically this is Kavanaugh's thesis and I'm just pushing it through, but I think it works in Jesus's life. I think it works in revelation. I think it works in first Peter. Like it works in act. He just did acts. I'm just going to do the whole new Testament. Okay, cool, man, dude. Thanks so much for being on a theology and raw and appreciate your work.

Again, the book is the ascension of Christ, recovering and neglecting doctrine, and also keep your eyes out for, uh patrick's forthcoming book on uh politics i imagine probably out 2021 right or no 2022 or 2022 would be my yeah i think it's 2022 yeah okay well dude thanks for being on the show thanks for having me Thank you.