Theology in the Raw - 854: Singleness and Celibacy as Vocation

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

Humans can live without sex, but we can’t live without love, intimacy, and community. So where does this leave Christian who are gay, who are also pursuing celibacy as a vocation? Pieter Valk helps us think through this question on a rich, theological, and practical level.  Pieter graduated from Vanderbilt University with Highest Honors in Chemistry in 2013. After graduating, Pieter studied at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary for a year with a focus on Lay Leadership and Culture-making. Pieter is the founder and director of Equip Ministries, a Nashville based organization created to help churches become places where LGBT+ Christians could belong and thrive according to a traditional sexual ethic. See more here: https://equipyourcommunity.org One of the most interesting projects Pieter is involved in is the Nashville Family of Brothers (https://familyofbrothers.org), a monastic-like community of Christian men devoted to pursuing celibacy together. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Peter Valk, who is the president and founder of Equip Ministries. Equip is a ministry that is designed to help churches become places where LGBT plus Christians can belong and thrive according to a traditional sexual ethic. Peter is a graduate of Vanderbilt University. He graduated the highest honors in chemistry. He also did some theological studies at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. He's a licensed counselor, a super, super smart dude, and is doing great, great work through this ministry, Equip, which is based in Nashville, Tennessee. We talk about a lot of stuff in this podcast related to sexuality and singleness and even marriage and this really fascinating community of brothers

who he is living with called the Nashville Family of Brothers. It's kind of like a Nashville Family of Brothers. It's kind of like a Protestant-ish, monastic-ish community of people who are called to vocational singleness. And it's really fascinating what they have going on here. So I'm excited for you to engage this conversation. And I do encourage you to check out Peter's ministry equip and the Nashville Family of Brothers. There'll be links in the show notes. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month. If you can't or don't want to support the show, but you want to leave a review, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Please do leave a review. It helps spread awareness of theology in the raw. Or if you don't want to leave a review,

you don't want to support the show, then get out of here. What are you doing? Just kidding. It's a free podcast. You can stay as long as you want. Would you consider sharing an episode or something on your social media accounts? If you find an episode that you found to be helpful, a helpful conversation, then please do consider letting others know about it. So, all right, without further ado, I want you to welcome to the show for the first time, my good friend, Peter Balk. All right. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with my friend, Peter Balk. Peter, thanks so much for being on the show, man. Yeah, glad to be here. So why don't we give, why don't you just give a short backstory to who you are and how you kind of fell into, fell into how you began this ministry at

Equip in Nashville. And then I really want to spend some time, um, talking about the Nashville family of brothers. I think that's just such a interesting, unique thing that you guys have going on. And I get a lot of questions in my own work about something like what you guys are doing. And so I often point people to the National Family of Brothers as an example of a possibility of vocational singleness in community. So, yeah. Who is Peter Volk? And tell us about Exodus.

Oh, man. Equip. Not Exodus. No worries. Yeah, so long story short, I'm a Christian and I'm gay and I'm convinced of a traditional sexual ethic that God's best for me and for every Christian is either a lifetime commitment of abstinent singleness for the sake of doing a kingdom work or a lifetime commitment to Christian marriage between a man and a woman to raise kids for the kingdom. And I think that's God's best for me too. And so a lot of my life has been making sense of my sexuality and God's wisdom and how to

make that work together. So much so that I felt like God was calling me to be a part of that work of teaching parents and pastors how to better love and serve people like me, according to a traditional sexual ethic. So that's my day job. I run a ministry called Equip, and we partner with churches to help them become places where gay people can belong and thrive according to a traditional sexual ethic. And then I'm also a licensed professional counselor, And I meet with, for like a half day a week with clients navigating questions of faith and sexuality.

And then in addition to that, I'm part of helping build the Nashville family of brothers. We are a monastery, an intentional Christian community, a brotherhood where men called to vocational singleness for the sake of the kingdom can find lived-in permanent family. And I really believe in this conversation about discernment and how those in vocational singleness can find family in our churches and hear the stories in Scripture about their pathway in Scripture, or excuse me, in church. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. Now, I love how casually you're talking, but as you know, you have said probably five very controversial things. Let me just run through those. You have no problem calling yourself gay. Um, why, why, um, and you and I are on the same page with that. I, I, you know,

obviously if you're committed to vocational singleness because of a Christian sexual ethic, your gayness is not your ultimate identity. Jesus is your ultimate identity. But, um, have you, why are you okay using the term gay rather than I, you know, I struggle with same sex attraction or something like that. You know, you know, the debate I'm referring to. Yeah. Uh, the, well, my primary audience, the people I speak to or on behalf of are, uh, kids in our churches who will one day realize they experience same-sex attraction, or teenagers in our churches who are gay. And I want to use the language that they're most familiar with, that they're going to hear in school, and I want to teach parents

and pastors to know how to use the words that their um, that their kids are using because there's so many barriers already to, to inviting our kids to steward their sexualities according to a traditional sexual ethic. Um, I'd hate for language to be just another barrier, just another reason for gay teens to think what God has to say is irrelevant. So. Okay, good. You also said, um, this is a finer point that I did notice though. You said that the traditional sexual ethic is not just, I've heard some people say, you know, this is what God's calling me to, but you made it more objective. Like, this is what God's calling all of his followers to. Do you use that language intentionally? Because I've heard people say, no, you know, I'm called

the signalist, but they don't want to take the next step to say, no, all people are called to celibacy in single unless they are called into marriage. Was that an intentional description of the ethic? Yeah. I mean, I do think it's God's best for all Christians. And that's why I'm convinced of it. And because I think it's God's best, I want every one of my brothers and sisters in Christ to also lean into God's best because I want good things for them. And that's what it means to love someone

is to will the good for them, you know? So, yeah. So, I mean, there's some people, maybe not too many, well, some in my audience, I have some more progressive people than you or I listening to the podcast. It's funny, on the spectrum of evangelicalism, my podcast seems to be, for some people, as liberal as they will go.

And then for other people, I'm as conservative as they will go. Sure. Yeah, yeah. so i i quite enjoy that uh that's that interesting space but um some people are just don't have a category for the god's best like okay maybe it's maybe you think it's morally right maybe you are interpreting scripture that way but you cannot say that this is like the best way to be human to deny your desires for another person in a consensual relationship. Like, I'm sure you get that. How would you respond to that? Yeah, I guess I don't know anything with certainty. But I also don't want to just make myself God and trust that I know what's best for me.

And so I'm seeking the scriptures. I'm seeking the wisdom of the church through reason and through experience. What is most likely to be God's best for all people, including me? But if I'm convinced that that's God's best for me, it just makes sense that I'd offer that to others. And there's some ideas here that are mutually exclusive with each other. There's some ways in which a traditional sexual ethic and a progressive sexual ethic can't be true at the same time. God can't be of both minds. And so if God is of one mind, I want to know of which mind God is. And then I want to

offer that to the people I love. In your journey, did you ever consider or become almost convinced of maybe a more progressive sexual ethic? I'm sure you, I mean, I know you, you're a very intelligent person. You're very, very, you're going to study something to the depths, you know, um, I think is how you're wired, is how I'm wired, is how you're wired. Um, just briefly, what was your journey like as I'm sure you weighed, you know, uh, an affirming progressive position? Yeah. I mean, I'd say growing up, I held a traditional sexual ethic 50% because of what the Bible said and 50% because of cultural pressure. And then God has just been really faithful that over time, God has replaced that 50% belief from cultural pressure with 50% more healthy conviction of this is what God has to say through scriptures and through the church. Um, and, and a lot of that journey has been me wanting a progressive sexual ethic to be true and me giving the best argument for a progressive sexual ethic, the best chance it could have of, of changing my mind. Cause it would certainly be more convenient for me. Um, and then every time I do that, um, I just become more deeply convinced, uh, of what the church has taught historically.

Now I've certainly made plenty of mistakes in my lifetime. Um, I've been convinced intellectually and theologically of a traditional sexual ethic consistently. Um, unfortunately I'm a sinner and I've, and I've inconsistently, I've unfaithfully at times lived that out. Um, unfortunately I'm a sinner and, and I've, and I've inconsistently, I've unfaithfully at times live that out. Um, so, so I want to make that clear. Yeah. Unfortunately, yeah. Us straight people, we actually have nailed it. We, we don't, yeah, we, we really don't fall short of God's standard being obviously sarcastic. Um, okay. Well, one, one other thing you said, and then we'll get to the meat of the conversation. I actually am, I'm, I like, although, well, I do like, and I'm intrigued by your way of framing marriage. You know, you have, you're called to celibacy in singleness, but you said, and yet there's those who are called to a male-female marriage, but you said for the purpose of raising kids for the kingdom. That sounds very,

very Catholic-ish. And I've had this conversation publicly a few times, and I'm actually leaning more toward that direction. Where I'm at now, I would say, well, first of all, did you intentionally say it that way? You're not known to be unintentional in your language so i'm going to assume yes but is that is that you is that your understanding of marriage that that raising kids is is part of that vocation in as much as it's possible i mean things about that yeah say raise children and not necessarily bear children, because there are many couples that are painfully dealing with the reality of infertility, and I don't want them to hear that I think they're a lesser marriage because they're unable to bear children. But it does seem

like through the teachings of Scripture and the Church historically that marriage is a vehicle, in part, for raising kids for the sake of the kingdom. Now, that's not the only good or beautiful thing about marriage. Obviously, it's a space to enjoy intimacy in the context of family. Obviously, it's an image that teaches us about the love in the Trinity and between Christ and the church. But I think the vocational singleness is also a call to enjoy healthy intimacy in the context of human family. And I think vocational singleness is also a call to enjoy healthy intimacy in the context of human family. And I think vocational singleness is also a call to, in unique ways, be an image, a reflection of the love in the Trinity between Christ and the Church. So the reason why I describe vocational singleness and Christian

marriage in the way I do is I want to point out what's unique about them, right? And I think what's unique about Christian marriage is that it is a space to raise children for the sake of the kingdom. And what's unique about vocational singleness is it's a call to give up romance, sex, marriage, kids, in order to have this availability to do kingdom work that parents might not have the time, energy, or financial freedom to do. Recognizing that raising kids is obviously an essential and awesome kingdom work. But I've got parents and married friends with kids who recognize that it's a full-time job being a parent. And there's lots of kingdom work out there to be done that they just don't have the time or energy to do because they're doing that important work of raising kids.

Yeah, that's good. I was raised you know, I was raised traditional low church evangelical where, you know, procreation was over here and sex was over here. And, and just up until the invention of the pill that, that never was even like sex and marriage and procreation were all one part of the same discussion. And even, I mean, just, just through natural law, it's like, yeah, obviously whoever created this thing called sex kind of built in a component of procreation that's sort of intertwined with it. And maybe there's theological reasons for that. I'm not quite, like, I don't, what would you say about, and I don't want to get too far on, this isn't really

why I want to have you on, but you've thought thought through this and i don't have a lot of people that i think are protestant but thinking similar to what i how i'm at least processing um what would you say to say like a couple in old age past age of child rearing they've been single their whole life then they get married and having biological kids is not really a possibility and maybe they're like yeah we don't really feel like we want to adopt kids at 55 years old or whatever. Would you say that that's kind of like an exception to the rule or would you say no? I mean, then if you're not called to have raised kids, maybe you're not called to marriage or how would you respond to that? Yeah, definitely exception to the rule category or space there. So yeah, when I gave that kind of more teased out definition of a traditional sexual ethic and God's best for all Christians, it was kind of as a rule.

OK, this is what it looks like. And there are exceptions to the rule. So including, you know, for example, there will be there'll be families that are are infertile and will prayerfully explore with God. God, do you still want us to adopt kids, to foster kids? Do you want us to not raise kids in that way, but be involved in our church family with this capacity? So yeah, there are definitely exceptions to the rule. Let me speak on behalf of my progressive friends who are listening right now.

Well, Peter, you make an exception for that. Wouldn't you make an exception for a gay couple that is committed to each other, that this isn't maybe the general pattern of marriage in Scripture, but maybe they want to adopt four or five kids, and there's plenty of needs for adoption, and there's not enough straight couple or heterosexual couples to go around to adopt all these kids. Why would you say that is outside the bounds of an exception to the rule?

Sure. Yeah. So it makes sense to me that some people called to vocational singleness may still be, and celibacy may still be called to, to foster adopt. I mean, we certainly see that in the history of the church,

uh, nuns were the people running the orphanages. So, you know, as a rule, vocational singleness isn't a space to foster and adopt kids. But there are going to be some people called to vocational singleness who are called to raise kids. And that may be a gay person called to vocational singleness. That may be a couple of gay people called the vocational singleness and living together and kind of they see themselves as a family unit and raise some kids together, not telling that kid or their church that they think the thing they're doing is marriage, but that they are as a community helping raise some kids. raise some kids. But it does seem to me, if we look at the wisdom in Scripture and what God says is his best and what God says is sin and will lead us to pain and destruction, it doesn't seem like that's an accommodation God could make. But I think these questions about consistency from more progressive folk is really important because it's true. If we're going to make accommodations or we're going to kind of ignore what Scripture's wisdom is for straight people, then we need to be willing to do that for gay people.

Or if we think God's wisdom really matters and we just can't fudge this line for gay people, well, maybe we need to have a similar conversation when it comes to straight people and child and and child rearing and an unbiblical divorce and second marriages for christians and all that kind of stuff but anyway i don't want to open up more cans of worms no i think yeah you already did by referencing and i'm just gonna let my audience linger on it and i'll linger on it because we do i do want to get into but just to make sure i heard you right you would on paper, like you would not say it's outside the bounds to have two celibate gay people raising kids together, not as a married couple, but as a committed friendship. And then they're both as, as a community raising kids. Is that, I just want to make sure I heard

you right. Yeah. I mean, as we'll probably get to, I think the, I think it'd be wiser if there's more than two adults in the house. Uh, I think it's hard when people are paired, um, for them not to, to, to see some exclusivity in their friendship, and for that exclusivity not to invite them to think of the other romantically. So I think it's probably, it might be wiser for them to be a community of more than two. But yeah, I know of some people who are gay and people of the same sex, and who live in the same house together, sleep in different beds, sleep in different bedrooms, invite accountability from their

church about their relationship, are clear to their kids and to their church. We don't see ourselves as married in the eyes of God, but we see ourselves as friends and who God is calling us to help raise, foster, or foster and adopt these kids that others won't, and they won't have a family if we don't. Do you think that that's confusing for the kid? Or is that just kind of one of the, like, wouldn't the kid interpret that as I have two dads? And I mean, it's not like the kid knows whether or not they're engaging in a sexual relationship.

I mean, it's not like the kid knows whether or not they're engaging in a sexual relationship. I mean, yeah, I mean, it probably would it would require those those two parents to be really clear in age appropriate ways what this is, what this isn't. And yeah, there may be times that it's confusing. But I don't as as as you speak to a lot, uh, in different contexts, uh, we were, we're not going to be able to avoid confusing images for our kids. Yeah. Um, so we need to be prepared to, to provide clarity and wisdom. All right. Well, I, I gotta think about that one.

That's, uh, yeah, that's, I, I get the question about celibate, uh, partnerships quite a, quite a bit. What do you think about two single people committed to celibacy who are... And the terminology differs with the question. I'm not comfortable with the term partnership, just because that does convey in our culture today a sexual relationship, but a covenanted friendship or something like that, I think is not only okay, I think it's beautiful and very biblical, obviously. And I think, I wish we had more covenanted friendships just across the board among humans, you know, especially the church. So I think friendships are too fleeting and too non-committal.

And I think that's problematic. So, okay, so let's transition. I know my audience is like, what about this? What about that? But I, if I could, if I could say really briefly, right. I mean, as a, as a rule, I think the best way in space to do vocational singleness is the way I described it, it earlier. Um, and yeah, I think there's, I think it's challenging if you're in a, I think sometimes celibate partnerships seem to invite romance. Even they say, oh, we can enjoy romance as long as we don't enjoy sexual activity. Or they see what they're doing as a replacement for marriage in some way and exclusivity is something they want and they wouldn't allow others to join this kind of community of two to become a community of three, four, five, six. And I think there's ways in which that seems to me incompatible with the model of spiritual friendship we see in scripture. So that's not what I'm suggesting. But yeah, I mean, as I know we'll get to, I live in a community of men who hold each other

accountable, who don't see ourselves as partnered or paired in any way. And I think this is a really healthy way for people to live out vocational singleness and find healthy family. Well, yeah, let's dive in there. So yeah, the Nashville Family Brothers described to us what that is, how it came about and how it's going. Yeah. So three or four years ago, I felt convinced that God was calling me to kind of commit in a permanent way to the kind of singleness that Jesus and Paul talks about. But I was curious how I was going to find the family I needed to do that well, how I was going to meet my intimacy needs in healthy ways. And I was talking to the pastor at my church about that. And I'm really thankful for his honesty. about that. And I'm really thankful for his honesty. He said, you know, Peter, unfortunately,

I don't know if you're going to find the experience of family you need at our church or any church in Nashville anytime soon. But I think you should go build it. And he said, monasticism has been the most common way that celibate people have found family. It's been the greatest source of theology in the church. It's been the greatest common way that celibate people have found family. It's been the greatest source of theology in the church. It's been the greatest source of evangelism in the church. It's been the greatest source of social justice in the church. It's been the greatest source of – I'm missing one. Education maybe? Theology, evangelism, social justice.

Okay. Yeah. And anyway, so he said maybe you should consider – you and some friends should consider starting something like that. So it began with just some Monday night dinners and us asking God, are you calling us to commit to lifetime singleness for the sake of the kingdom? Are you calling us to start some kind of intentional Christian community together to be a space to do that well? So fast forward to now. We've got five guys living in a house together. So fast forward to now, we've got five guys living in a house together, and we have each made either about to make one-year commitments or have made one-year commitments or have made three-year commitments to this community.

And we are all committed to vocational singleness for the sake of the kingdom, committed to celibacy. We do prayer together every morning. We do confession once a week together. We do three meals a week together. We do some monthly rhythms of praise and worship together, and we do some holidays and vacations together. We alternate Thanksgivings and Christmases with our biological family versus the Nashville family of brothers. So kind of when you imagine, well, what does anyone do between their 5 p.m. and their 9 a.m.? Where do they go find family? Where do they spend their weekends? Well, this is where we do that. And eventually, we hope, you know, brothers in a stepwise way might make lifetime commitments to this

community. It's quite different. Go ahead. I was gonna say, it was one of the criteria that you have to be gay or same sex attracted, or is it just that you have to be, uh, committed to lifelong, uh, celibacy or singleness? Yeah. So, yeah, this is a space for, for for for any Christian man who feels called to vocational singleness to find family, regardless of sexual orientation. And we have had people of a variety of sexual orientations who who have discerned and who are a part of this.

And, you know, we brothers make one year commitments and then three year commitments and then lifetime commitments to the Nashville family of brothers. Although if they don't feel enough confidence to kind of take the next step, they can repeat that one year or that three year. But we are about – we do want to be on a trajectory towards lifetime commitments both to celibacy and to this community. So that's what we're about there. So maybe it sounds a little bit like a monastery in kind of an old-school way. But there's some ways we're different than like a typical monastery. Um, we're still a part of our local churches and we're actually from a variety of denominations. Um, so we've got some Catholic guys that have discerned some Anglican guys, some PCA guys, some Baptists and non denominational, some church of Christ. So there's a lot of variety here. Um, and, and all of us have

jobs outside of our home. Okay. Like we're not monks who are making bread and cheese or doing some kind of like nine to five prayer ministry. A lot of us have, um, non-ministry jobs outside of the home. So, okay. Yeah. Um, and so, so just to clarify, Oh, would you allow a female or no, And so just to clarify, would you allow a female or no? You have to be a male. For a variety of reasons, we think that God's calling us to be kind of a community of men. And that's what the pastors who are providing oversight for what we're doing think would be wisest. We have been praying for God to raise up a Nashville family of sisters that would kind of parallel what we're doing and that we would have really healthy relationships with. What are some of the challenges?

What are some of the challenges and also maybe some of the blessings in being a part of this community? Yeah. I think the hardest part is that we don't have a lot of models for how to do this well. There's no one kind of handing us a formula of this is the wisest way to do vocational singleness in a more ordinary way and still find committed, lived-in family within kind of a single-sex community of other

celibate people. We don't have a formula for that. So we're kind of having to figure it out as we go and, and borrow some from history and borrow some from other traditions and also discern and pray with, with pastors involved. So I think that's the hardest part is, is, um, is, is we're having to kind of trail some, uh, blaze some new trails. Um, but I think what's really beautiful is, uh, you know, uh, a number of us have realized beautiful is, you know, a number of us have realized, you know, maybe some people called to celibacy have this even bigger gift of celibacy that they don't really need human intimacy as much anymore. But at least all of the men who've discerned the

natural family brothers feel like that's not the version of the gift of celibacy we got. who've discerned the natural family of brothers feel like that's not the version of the gift of celibacy we got. We still need some kind of healthy human intimacy. And we need that in a way that's consistent, that we can depend on. It's not just a revolving door of roommates. We need something more permanent, you know? And I would say I think God's made all of us for permanent human family to help teach us about the permanence of God's love in the Trinity between Christ and the church. So I think that that need for some kind of faithful, permanent, lived in family love is is intentional. I think that's I think we're made for that. Right. So I think what's really beautiful is that we actually have hope that we're going to find that. I think what's really beautiful is that we actually have hope that we're going to find that.

When many of our peers who think they're called, feel are called to celibacy are worried about, well, who am I going to come home to from work or from a plane flight 10 years from now? You know, will I be alone in my 50s, my 60s? Who will hold my hand when I'm dying? We have hope for who those people are right now. And that's really special. I mean, we're spoiled in many ways, because I know so many people either who feel called to singleness or kind of an involuntary singleness who live in like dread and fear of those things. And we've got hope that God's offering us something different. things. And we've got hope that God's offering us something different. So there's, I'm sure a lot of people listening, there's a question that people are thinking of,

they might not even would ask it publicly, but how do you guys, I don't know, mitigate or not mitigate, but navigate the, let me just say it like the potential for sexual attraction towards each other. I mean, the only parallel I can give is somebody who's opposite sex attracted is if I was single living in a house with, you know, um, I mean, I guess I can almost compare it to living in a house with like five other single women or something. Doesn't mean just cause I'm straight, I'm totally attracted to every single woman I see most. I'm not, but, but I mean, yeah. What if a couple of them were pretty attractive and, and like, how would I, um, I can imagine that that would be, you know, there'd be a difficulty there. And so, um, yeah. How, how do you guys manage that? Yeah. So, um, I don't,

I don't see personally, uh, same sex attraction as just opposite-sex attraction but a switch that's been flipped. Okay. I think it's a different kind of thing. And I think it's more helpful to think of these are like different switches that are separated from each other. One does not influence the other. So – and one of the ways that same-sex attractions are different, at least in my experience, is that when I lean into healthy friendship with other men, even if they're men that I might be – might like recognize are physically attractive. When I lean into healthy friendship with them, my desire for something romantic or sexual with them seems to kind of be less temporarily. Interesting. Huh. And what that suggests to me is that what I really am desiring with those people is not something romantic or sexual, but is something chaste, is something platonic, is something intimate, but something non-romantic and non-sexual.

And that I only perceive that as romantic or sexual when I'm not meeting my intimacy needs in healthy ways. It kind of gets skewed. It kind of gets off a bit. And so in the National Family Brothers, we try to be intentional about having healthy friendships with each other and leaning into healthy intimacy. And that seems to be early as we can shining a light on the potential for some things like this. And we have an advisory board of pastors in Nashville who provide oversight for what we do. And so we also are seeking wisdom from them and seeking accountability from them and confessing to them if there's – if we think there's even a possibility of something like this in our community um and then as you've probably talked about just when we talk about sexual stewardship for any people um you know it um if we if we draw the battle lines even farther from that and our and our and our diligence there we're less likely to have issues when it comes to actually kind of crossing boundaries with another person. So what I mean is if we're having honest conversations about, um,

a pornography and masturbation, um, and really holding that line and really holding each other accountable to that, if that's where we're really doing battle earnestly, um, we're much less likely to, to be, to be strongly tempted by crossing boundaries with another person. You see what I'm saying? Lax boundaries, lax kind of sexual purity when it comes to pornography and masturbation makes it easier for us to be tempted in a strong way with actually acting out with another person. But if we push against that line, even kind of push the battlefront even farther away from those kinds of things. Yeah. Seems to be safer. Well that, no, if I can, yeah. To tease out your thoughts or make sure I'm following you. I mean, I could imagine, you know,

somebody who would potentially be concerned about a bunch of gay men living together in a house. I think I would, I would push them to at least consider the opposite. A gay man living by himself. Is that going to reduce his temptation, his susceptibility to which obviously sounds like you guys are pursuing pretty vigorously. I don't know too many straight Christians who are having like daily prayers and confession in a community together. Like that seems pretty awesome. So it seems like the spiritual health, when you guys are spiritually healthy,

and again, I appreciate you saying we're not perfect or whatever, but like, gosh, you're certainly making a priority. It seems like that would reduce the temptation, the need, the really kind of acting on your attractions rather than if you're just all isolated and single. Yeah. You gave a better answer than I did. isolated and single. Yeah. You gave a better answer than I did. That's the right answer. Yeah. What we're not seeking is a risk-free way to do community because that doesn't exist. The better question is, will this lead to more sexual purity than living alone? Right. And the answer is yes to that. Well, I just came to my head. When I was in college, I had just recently got saved. I was really hungry for Christian fellowship, came out of the world where I was like, man, I need to be around some good Christian guys.

But I didn't want to be around – like I was an athlete. I was that guy in high school. And some Christian groups I went to, I'm like, I gotta be friends with these people. It was hard for me, you know, I get to my Christian college and there's loads of just amazing people like just, and I got put in one of the dorm rooms, a little shout out to slight, uh, room number four, if anybody's listening from masters university and a slight was the name of the dorm and it had communal it had like four to six people per room so it was like an old married housing without like two rooms bunk beds so i was in a room with maybe four other guys

and we happened to just become friends instantly uh even to this day we keep in touch um just rich we'd step until two in the morning playing pranks on each other, deep theological conversations, laughing to the point of tears, all this stuff. And I remember if I think back now, and obviously I'm a single guy at a Christian school, so I'm on the prowl to find my wife or whatever. Every Christian school is – but I remember times when I'm like, I would rather be with my guys right now than out on campus, you know, talking to a girl right now. Because the intimacy, the depth, the fellowship was so rich and life-giving. I'm like, I want to be with the guys right now. Like, this is just. And so I guess that's the only kind of comparison I could have to which you guys maybe experienced to where deep non-sexual intimacy can mitigate aberrant sexual desires or even just sexual desires in general.

Because there's a connection there, right? I feel like sexual desire is a subset of a larger need for intimacy. I feel like sexual desire is a subset of a larger need for intimacy. So when that larger need for intimacy is met, it has an effect on the kind of level of sexual desire that you have to kind of discipline, if that makes sense. Does that make sense? The connection was a little spotty. Okay, okay. Sorry. Uh, so what would you, would you say that sexual desire is a subset of a deeper desire for intimacy? And so when that deeper desire for non-sexual intimacy is met, it has an effect on the level or out of, you know, the, the, the management of your sexual desire, um, in healthy ways.

Yeah. So I've definitely seen, I mean, obviously I've got a lot of friends who are not gay. I've got a lot of friends who are straight and Christian. Um, and it's definitely been their testimony that, um, even while they're married, when they are not, uh, seeking out healthy friendship with other men, in addition to their healthy marriage relationship, they seem to have more problems with temptation for pornography and masturbation. But when they are both seeking healthy relationship and intimacy with their wife and they're seeking healthy friendship with other men, they seem to have better victory over temptation for pornography and masturbation. So, yeah, I think kind of regardless of sexual orientation, meeting our intimacy needs in healthy ways and same-sex friendship and opposite-sex friendship, that's the formula.

That's the formula. And I find oftentimes straight Christian married couples have tried to squeeze more intimacy out of the marriage than marriage is actually designed to do. So they try to invest all of their intimate needs there, not in friendship. And that's when I, this is where I, you know, five years ago, I wouldn't have said this, but getting to know healthy, celibate gay Christians who are pursuing and who are in healthy, intimate relationships with other guys or girls, you know, depending on their, who they are. They've taught me about my need for healthy friendships. Because yeah, I don't, again, five years ago, I wouldn't have said this, but I don't think all of our emotional,

spiritual needs can be or should be met in a marriage. I don't think that's the design for, I don't think that's why God created marriage was to exhaust all of our intimate needs as humans. Would you agree with that? I mean, I... Yeah.

Yeah. I, I wonder if there'd be less divorce in the church if, if we did friendship better because we had more reasonable expectations of our spouse and, and we weren't, uh, expecting them to be perfect in some way or meet all of our needs and then, and then kind of moving on to someone else because they weren't enough. So, yeah, that's good. That's good. So, um, I'm just thinking like, cause I, you know, I talked to a lot of churches that are like, man, how can we as a church come alongside our gay or same sex attracted brothers and sisters, especially those pursuing singleness. I mean, do you think, uh, do you think of churches kind of sponsored houses like this? Like if they had a house, maybe they even offset some of the costs or just made it very like,

Hey, we want to go out of our way to create an opportunity for something like this to happen. Is that something you've seen churches do? Or would you, or would you, maybe would you like to see churches do, um, take the lead on this kind of communal housing? Yeah, I think that'd be great. I mean, so the beginning of the story I shared about the National Family of Brothers was my pastor, kind of inspiring, giving the idea for this. And he's been involved throughout this process in kind of coaching us and, um, and, and processing with us and we are dealing with difficult moments and, and, uh, when we've made kind of public commitments to, uh, to, to celibacy and to the community and to, to family and to the kind of the way of life that we do together. Uh, we did those in a church and he was there and he was in his collar and he laid hands

on, on, on, on each of us individually as we went up and kind of made those commitments to the to those gathered um really like this was a this was a this was a public kind of uh church thing that was going on wow that's awesome that's fantastic we had a big reception afterwards and because we're in a anglican church we had alcohol and uh so we we had some drinks and played some, we had alcohol. And so we had some drinks and played some games and had some music playing. And it was a really good time. So yeah, I think churches can be a big part of this. And I think it's really important. I think these communities will be healthier and this work will be healthier at churches

if they don't frame this as the solution for gay people. But instead, they frame this as the solution for those called to celibacy regardless of their sexual orientation and invite more straight people to consider if they might be called to the singleness of Jesus or Paul. So I think when we can move this out, when we can kind of disconnect celibacy from being gay, it'll be a healthier thing for celibate straight people and gay people yeah that's good that's I'm not sure the Protestant church is ready

for that but have you met maybe more or any single straight people who would like to be in a relationship it's not like they are just hyper introverts but they're like no I feel called to pursue celibacy. Have you,

do you know anybody like that? That's straight? Yeah, definitely some. I mean, I have a number of, of, of straight friends right now who are considering that possibility, who are discerning that or who are asking that question of God, do you want me to kind of live single for the sake of the kingdom for a time? Do you want me to commit to living single for the sake of the kingdom for a time? Do you want me to commit to living single for the sake of the kingdom for longer? You know, obviously we know that the marriage rates in our churches are going down. And I think some churches have responded to that by saying, well, we need to just push marriage more and push everyone.

Push marriage is the only option. And they're afraid that any conversation about the possibility of vocational singleness leads to less people getting married. And what I want to suggest is if we invited all of the young adults in our churches to intentionally discern whether God is calling them to marriage or vocational singleness and really push them to ask God what God's best might be for them. That'll lead to more people getting married and more people committing to vocational singleness for the sake of the kingdom, because we need more of both, right? We need less Christians kind of languishing in uncommitted singleness in our churches, And we need more Christian marriage and more committed singleness. And I think discernment is the way to do that.

Yeah, man, that's good. I read a study somewhere or a survey a while back that for the first time in modern history, the percentage of single people of marital age has surpassed a percentage of married people of marital age. This is a society, not in the church. And in the church, it might be not that high. But either way, I mean, a church that doesn't have a robust theology of singleness is going to be profoundly irrelevant to 50%. I think the percentage is like 50% of people are single of marital age. I mean, maybe like 22 know, like 22 to 38 or something like that. They're still single.

Maybe they get married later on or whatever. Maybe they don't at all. But yeah, that's, I mean, I think more than ever, I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, but I mean, I think we've long overdue to cultivate a healthier theology of singleness. I mean, the fact that, and I've said this before, the fact that Jesus was a single man of marital age has serious theological significance. And I think the, I'll just flat out say, I think the heretical Christian assumption is, well, he's Jesus. He can't get married and have sex. It's like,

wait, wait, since when did marriage and sex within marriage become sin? Wasn't that a Genesis one and two thing? Wasn't that the very first commandment, be fruitful and multiply? Does Jesus not have the possibility as a sinless savior to get married and bear children or whatever? Like, I know that gets messy, but we can't say, oh, it's because he's God why he didn't get married. Like, I know that gets messy, but, um, I, I, we can't say, Oh, it's because he's God. Why he didn't get married. Like he, you know, like, well, well, he was also a hundred percent man. And, and I, yeah, anyway, I, I think that there's, there's theological significance for Jesus, the singleness that we have not appreciated as a Protestant church. Um,

the Anglican church, I wonder, because Anglican has kind of a couple toes in the Catholic world, it seems like, at least in practice and theology a little bit. Do you find the Anglican church having a better theology of singleness? A little bit, or at least their sensibilities make them a little less afraid of Catholic-seeming things. And there is a history of Anglican and Episcopal monasteries and monks and that kind of stuff. So it's a mix. It's a mix. Yeah. There was a recent statement. You sent it to me, and that triggered my thought. I don't know if I looked at it. Was there a recent statement on, I'm going to try and pull it up here, the Anglican church and let's see if I have it here. No, that's not it. You know what I'm talking about, right? Oh,

yeah. Right here. Dear Gay Anglican Social Guide. What, what, what? Can you- It's kind of like a whole drama around all of that. I don't know if we, if how helpful it would be to get into it here. Oh, really? Okay. Can you maybe don't give an opinion, but can you explain what it is and what the drama is? Do you feel comfortable doing that or just from a neutral standpoint? Uh, yeah, I can say briefly that, um, I mean, as we've probably seen over the past five or six years, a number of conservative, uh, mainline Protestant denominations have felt the need both to reaffirm a traditional sexual ethic and particularly comment on this kind of sexuality identity language conversation. I would say for the sake of kind of culture war pressures.

And the Southern Baptist Convention did that with the Nashville Statement, and the PCA did that with the PCA report. And so the Anglican Church in North America have recently done that with a kind of denominational level statement that came out about two months ago. And there's some of us in the Anglican Church in North America who were afraid how that denominational statement might be perceived, particularly by gay agnostics curious about getting to know that there are Anglican churches where they are welcome and where their language won't be policed. But yeah, that's a whole longer conversation. Yeah, no, it's fine. And I don't want to draw you into something here publicly. So the statement is, it's an Anglican version. This is a bad way of saying it, but I'll just say it and answer the emails later.

It's an Anglican version of the national statement or an Anglican attempt to do their own kind of like, here's our public statement. Is that okay? Yeah. Or an Anglican version of the PCA report that came out last March. Got it. So kind of an analog to those two in a way. Yeah. I know the CRC, Christian Reformed Church, is going through a lot of stuff.

And they've released statements. More, I think, for internal use. And yeah, I think a lot of, I'm sure the RCA, I know they're Reformed Church of America. They're going through stuff. So yeah, this is, man. Yeah. My heart goes out to these denominations, man. That's not easy to manage this conversation, you know, and the role of statements is particularly touchy. Um, statements are, they lack oftentimes relational

sensitivity and nuance. Then you typically have committees that are in charge of them. People are on different spectrums. Then you have have the politics denominational politics and money and old guard and young guard it's just it's uh i don't envy people who are involved in in that sort of thing to get a bunch of people across the spectrum of kind of views to agree on a single statement not my cup of tea man yeah yeah okay i'll check it out it'll work when you find it the because i do need to read through it um dear gay anglicans is that the or no yeah so that uh that's some of the some of the controversy is is there was an open letter signed by uh two bishops and uh and and five different canon theologians and, uh, and a bunch of Anglican

clergy. And the, the open letter was hosted on dear gay Anglicans.com. Um, and then for a variety of denominational politic politics reasons, we, I was, we were asked to take it down, um, and, and complied with that, that request from a bishop. So, um, it's, it's, it's complicated. I can send you kind of privately, uh, a URL to a web archive of the letter if you're curious, and I can send you a URL to the, the, the denominational statement that came out two months ago, um, that is in some ways related. So, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'll like to, I just like to be kind of be aware of what's going on, but yeah. Um, where can people find you and your work? Yeah. Talk to us really quickly before we close about Equip. And if anybody's in the Nashville area, they absolutely need to know about your ministry there. So yeah. Tell us a bit about

how they can get ahold of you. Yeah. Our website is equipyourcommunity.org. And you can email us at info at equippyourcommunity.org and then I think are uh we're on Instagram and uh Facebook and I think the handles are at equippyourcommunity.org or excuse me at equippyourcommunity are the handles um and then yeah if you want to stay in touch with with with with kind of me and the ways that I'm kind of speaking into some of these topics uh my handles on Twitter Instagram and Facebook Facebook are my first name and then my middle initial L and then my last name. So P-I-E-T-E-R-L-V as in Victor, A-L-K. But if you're particularly curious about this Nashville Family of Brothers idea, you can go to familyofbrothers.org.

you can go to familyofbrothers.org. And you can also find us on Facebook or Instagram. And I think our handle is at Nashville family of brothers. Hard to keep up with all the handles, man. Yes, there's a lot. I'm curious. There might be some people listening. They're like, dude, I would move to Nashville if I can be a part of this.

Is that something? Have you had people hear about it from a distance and want to fly and move to Nashville just to be a part of this? And is that, have you had people hear about it from a distance and want to fly and move to Nashville just to be a part of this? And is that a possibility for people? Are you guys maxed out or? Yeah, we've got a guy in the house right now who moved here from Chicago a year ago.

Okay. Got a guy in the house right now who moved here from Dallas three months ago. We've got a guy who might move here from Chattanooga in a couple of months. Another guy who might move from Orlando in half a year. So, yeah, we'd love for people to reach out.

We kind of have a formal way that people explore from a distance, whether the Nashville Family Brothers is for them. They read through our community covenant with us and they join us for some discernment discussions and get to know some of the brothers. And particularly as we get a little farther into kind of people getting vaccinated and, uh, we, we invite people to come hang out with us for kind of weekend retreats to get to know current brothers. Uh, so, um, yeah, so there's, there's, we definitely want this to grow. Also, if there's anyone out there who says this sounds great, but I'd like to start this in my city with some people I know, I would love for there to be a, uh, a, uh, you know, Missoula family of brothers and, uh, an Atlanta family of brothers and a Boston family of brothers and an LA family of brothers. So if anyone's interested in starting something similar and you want any help kind of brainstorming

that, or even some, I can, I'm happy to provide some free coaching toward that, uh, to make that happen. I would love, I mean, we need some free coaching toward that to make that happen. I would love, I mean, we need these kinds of solutions in our cities and available to our churches. So I'd love to help however I can. Thanks, Peter, for being on The All General. You guys check out his work. It's great stuff, especially if you're in the Nashville community,

the greater Nashville area. If you're involved in the church, we'd love to dive into the conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender. I mean, I know Peter's ministry pretty well, and they just do amazing, amazing work. So if you're a church that wants to bring Peter in, check out his website and go from there. So thanks so much, Peter, for being on Theology in Iran. Thanks for having me. Thank you.