Theology in the Raw - 855: Political Discipleship in a Post-Covid World: Joshua Ryan Butler

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Josh Butler is a good friend and one of the most gifted, enjoyable, and all around brilliant dudes I’ve ever met. He’s a pastor, teacher, scholar, writer, and scandalous witness to the gospel of Christ. I could do ministry with this dude any day of the week. He’s written two incredible books: The Skeletons in God’s Closet and The Pursuing God--both are absolute gems. Josh also serves as a lead pastor at Redemption Church in Tempe, AZ, and served as a pastor for over 15 years at Imago Dei Church in Portland, OR. In this podcast, we banter around about all kinds of things related to politics, race, discipleship in 2021, pastoring in a post-Covid world, nationalism, partisanship, and how to deal with Christians who are heavily influenced by the partisan politics of our day.  Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today my good friend, Josh Ryan Butler. Josh Butler is the author of two incredible books, The Skeletons in God's Closet. Subtitle is The Mercy of Hell, The Surprise of Judgment, The Hope of Holy War, that was published in 2014, and also his more recent book, The Pursuing God, a reckless, irrational, obsessed love that's dying to bring us home. He is a beautiful writer, an incredibly thoughtful dude, one of the most well-rounded Christian leaders I've ever met. And we met, gosh, when did we meet? Probably seven years ago, maybe. And we had become friends from a distance and I have so much respect for this guy. Um, our plan for this conversation was there was, there is no plan.

Uh, the one rule of fight club is we don't talk about fight club, right? Um, yeah, that was the one, the one rule I told Josh is like, I'm not going to come in with any kind of preconceived agenda in this conversation. He's such a thoughtful dude. And so I just said, let's just see where the conversation goes. We ended up talking a lot about just ministry in the Arizona context where he's currently pastoring. He was a pastor at Imago Dei Church in Portland for over 15 years and now is in a very different kind of setting. And we talked a lot about pastoring through COVID. A big part of our conversation was on pastoring and just being a Christian leader in the context of a lot of political polarization, that the whole partisan polarization in our society and how that's affected disciples of Jesus and how he has navigated that on a pastoral

level is super helpful. A few weird facts about Josh that I just found listed on his website. These are things I did not know about Josh, but he publicly lists them. So I'm going to publicly read them. He once got beat up by a billy goat. He's been run over by a VW van and he ate a dog, but he wants us to not worry because this dog was cooked. Josh, I'm still very concerned about eating a cooked dog, but I'm super excited to have you on my podcast again. If you want to support this show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw support show for as little as five bucks a month. Also get access to premium content. For instance, once a month, I do two lengthy Q&A podcasts for my

Patreon audience. So if you have been listening to Theology in a Raw for a while, you remember the good old days when I did lots of Q&A podcasts. I still do lots of Q&A podcasts. They are just for my Patreon audience because to handle all the questions they send in can be a lot of work, but I want to focus on answering their questions. So if you want to benefit from Theology on the Rock Q&A podcast, you got to join the Patreon community. The info is in the show notes. So without further ado, let's welcome back to the show the one and only Joshua Ryan Butler. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw.

I'm here with a good friend of mine, Joshua Ryan Butler. He's so awesome. He needs three names. Josh, thanks so much for being back on the show, man. Thanks, man. Dude, it's good seeing you again, Preston. It's been a while. I feel like I've had you on, I think, at least a couple times, but I think it may have been like two years.

But yeah, I described who you are in the intro and, uh, I, I just, I don't know that I'll never forget. I've told this story before. I think last time you're on, but you were, uh, you had wrote the manuscript for your second book, the, the pursuing God. And I'm like, yeah, dude, I'll read it. I'll consider endorsing it or whatever. And I remember reading that on the airplane ride home from an event we were both speaking at. And I was so discouraged, man, because it was such a beautifully written book, so powerful, so theologically rich, so well-rounded. I was like, I want to write like this. This is so discouraging. well dude that's amazing to hear because i can say the same with you man i feel like you're you're an inspiration for me dude the way that you're approaching theology and making it accessible and really writing just rich theology and accessible prose in a way that's just fun to read but it doesn't compromise on like a depth of content and all of you and it's funny too man

it's awesome i've had a i don't know why the last months, a load of people from our church going like, dude, have you heard theology in the raw? I haven't listened to it. And they're just like loving it and blown away. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so awesome. And so now they're going to freak out when, yeah. Sweet. Sweet.

But anyway, you've been inspiring and equipping and helping a lot of our folks go deeper into life with Christ and Bible and everything. Oh, that's awesome. Hey, real quick, I'm going to put some, uh, I'm going to keep recording here, but I'm hearing an echo. Wait, it's gone. No, no, it's not you. I was going to put headphones in, but actually it's, I think it's okay. Sometimes when I do headphones, it like screws up with the mic. Um, so I typically don't use them.

So I'll keep them here. I think it's okay now. Um, so you, you, uh, now. So you pastored at Imago Dei Church in Portland for a number of years. How many years was that? 15 years or something? Yeah, 15 years at Imago and loved it, man. That was home, family, deep roots there. I feel like Imago was on the front end of a kind of, I don't know how to describe it, the front end of a kind of, I don't know how to describe it, like a theologically orthodox, but more hipster, grungy, gritty kind of urban church. Before it was sexy. You guys are doing it because that's what ministry was. But now people like, dude, I feel called to Portland or downtown

Seattle. Nothing against that calling, but it always does seem to be in real kind of sexy urban areas that God calls people to which is which is great but like you guys were doing it i mean how long was rick there for was he did he start like in the early 90s or something he's still there we planted in 2000 i came on in 2001 attending and then came on staff in 2003 uh but yeah, man, like, and it was kind of the young college, you know, like young college, post-college, single, and it just had kind of that grungy vibe, not because it was trying to be. Like, you know, like, he's a former football player, like, you know, he's just very blunt

and direct, but I think because of just demographically who we were, you know, like, it was just kind of, we were Portland. And so it felt like kind of that keep Portland weird, be eclectic. Yeah. Portland, yeah. Like a lot of very eclectic, crazy personalities that, uh, yeah, it's a beautiful history and season part of, yeah. Part of my story for sure.

I remember speaking there at some event i think you helped arrange on a monday morning or something some pastors gathering and the church on a monday morning was so busy there was like all these like ethnic smell like food like people cooking like korean barbecue over here and some ethiopian dish over there there's like homeless people running in and out. It was like a beehive of ministry. I'm like, dude, this is Monday morning. There's so much going on in this church. It's crazy. Would that be an accurate way of describing the day in, day out? Ten years in, we started renting. We were at a wedding chapel. Then about five years later,

we were at an old church. Then we were renting a high school and at about 10 years in an amazing church portland forest square which is phenomenal and they swapped they basically swapped buildings with us uh like we we had been gifted a smaller facility that was right size for them and it's a long god story just their amazing generosity god working this thing out we could have never gotten into that space but when we did did, I think we really said, man, we want this space to be a place for the city, you know, and for God's kingdom, not just Sunday morning. And so Rick really led the charge. I mean, his sweet spot is missional vision. How do we love and serve the broader city and be engaged with the presence of Jesus in Portland? And so, dude, there was just ministry hopping out of that building all

from Portland. And so there was just ministry hopping out of that building all week long, you know, like, yeah. And still, it's just amazing stuff happening out of there. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So you had a recent transition a couple of years, two and a half years ago, moved on to Arizona. Talk. Yeah. Just talk to us about what that transition has been like. And I would love to have you unpack maybe the different cultures, but maybe both church culture, but also just larger culture, because from what I know about Portland and what I know about like the greater Phoenix, you know, Tempe, Arizona area, pretty different, I would assume in terms of culture. So we'd love to hear about that transition. Totally, man.'s a little the backdrop of the transition it was uh i had this dream one night and uh in the

dream like i'm i'm being driven in the back of this suv through the city of portland you know and i see like this missile flying through the air and boom it slams into this building up ahead and the whole building kind of crumbles so we swerve we go another direction i see another missile like boom and we go another. We're going up over this bridge, one of these bridges. I see this other one, boom, and it hits the bridge and the whole bridge starts to collapse and crumble. And we're going down towards the water. And I kind of wake up right before then.

And sometimes, dude, I have crazy dreams because I ate a bad burrito or something for dinner, you know. But sometimes it feels like, God, it feels like you're saying something, you know, so I prayed about it, and just immediately, I felt this strong sense of God going, like, dude, everything that's familiar, Josh, like, your home, your city, your roots, like, just your place, everything, it's kind of about to feel like it's crumbling down around you, but I've got you, was kind of the thing. And with that, the strong sense of God calling us into a new season. So, I mean, I was really beautiful and hard. There's more backstory to it. It wasn't just the dream, but it felt like it confirmed some other stuff we've been processing.

And that was hard because we love and we love Imago. We love our families in Portland, deep roots there, all that. in Portland, deep roots there, all that. Yet through kind of prayer and discernment and with Rick, our leaders there in this process, really, man, we got paved the way for us to come out here to Arizona. And man, I gotta say, I love it, dude. It's been so awesome here.

We love, well, Arizona, we're a part of a church called Redemption. And Redemption is interesting. So first off, so I pastor here at Redemption. Redemption is interesting. First off, I pastor here at Redemption Tempe, which is near Arizona State University. It's the largest college student campus in the country in terms of the most students.

It's hyper college town. It's right outside Phoenix, the hub of college town. Then Redemption itself, we're one church with 10 congregations, and each congregation, I mean, it's an interesting structure. It's kind of hard to describe outsiders, I think. So is that like a video venue or, you know, like, and it's not at all like we really function with our,

every church has their own, each congregation has their own elders preaching teams all that and you go to each one it feels very different because they're in different parts of town different immigrant one is spanish speaking uh and it's like 200 people another one's in kind of the business district is you know 3 500 people another one it's more low income and uh a hard part of town there's a lot you know, homelessness and drug addiction issues that people are facing on that front. So we're all kind of in it together. And Arizona has been, I'd say, so where we're at has felt very ideologically diverse, I would say. Because where I was from, you know, I love Portland, but it's more like a progressive echo chamber, you know. And so at least in the hub, the heart of the city, the circles I was in, you know, it just feels like you're in this feedback loop of kind of the, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Portland, India has got a lot of truth to it, right? There's that. And here going, man, there's a lot of both. I've encountered a lot of both the left and the right and everything in between you know like there's a strong kind of ideological diverse people are like uh feeling pretty i found you know like uh opinionated but in a fun way where it's like you let's just get into it and

talk and you know and it's uh all that statement i man. I've enjoyed it. It's been on that front. I've enjoyed it. It's been a lot of fun. And just in general, man, it's beautiful. I love the climate, the church body here, the Phoenix area. I love the Southwest. It's just. It's beautiful.

The desert has a mystique and beauty to it that I love. It's not everybody's cup of tea. I mean, I appreciate lush mountains like the Boise area. I mean, it's just like beautiful rivers and snow peak mountains and everything. But there's something about the desert that just I'm always intrigued by. There's a beauty there, the red rock and the formations and just the way the sun sets, how they just echo off the landscape in a really unique way. And yeah, I love it. And that culture, the Southwest culture is really –

I just got done reading Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. Wow. I haven't read it, but it sounds amazing. I don't know. My kids are saying, so did you finish your book, Daddy? Did you like it? I'm like, I don't know what My kids are saying, so did you finish your book, Daddy? Did you like it? I'm like, I don't know what word to describe it. I'm just kind of simmering in it. It's a really hard book to read.

Really, I mean, sometimes you'll read whole paragraphs, and you're like, I don't know what I'm reading. At least for me, I've seen other people say the same thing. But anyway, the whole thing is kind of in the Southwest, and he's so like picturesque and how he described things, but in, in almost like an unclear way. So like, I can't say I can picture it. It's just his, but it's his attention to details is really fascinating.

Anyway, that's not why you're on the show. So the ideological diversity is interesting because I have heard from many pastors, almost every pastor that I talked to, unless they are in an echo chamber, um, which, so, uh, John Tyson's the only one that I've talked to who says, dude, I'm pastoring in Manhattan. Nobody in my church voted for Trump. Like it wasn't, there was no like, you know, it wasn't, we didn't have kind of tensions along political lines. And I'd imagine Portland might be, well, I don't know. But you said there's ideological diversity. Given the fact that this last year has become very polarized, the intensity has ramped up, gasoline is thrown on the fire. The intensity has ramped up.

Gasoline is thrown on the fire. Has that affected your ministry? Has it been challenging? Have you, that greater societal polarization, have you, is that also happening in your kind of ministry context or has it been more chill? Oh man, of course. Yeah, let's open the can.

No, totally, man, of course. Yeah, let's open the can. No, totally, man. It has been interesting. I think one of the biggest challenges I've found has been people reading into stuff if i wasn't a christian i might use a different word than stuff but uh stop getting into some anime uh because like you just give a few examples like uh there's been so much of this these are just kind of symbolic examples um and someone at our church going dude why do you guys have these all lives matter signs like all over your church building all over campus i was like what all lives matter signs are you talking about like dude all over your church there's like these posters big billboard like all lives matter i'm like oh crap dude do we get like graffitied or tagged or what happened can you show me these signs so they guess how i'm going to look at the building and for like over 10 years our motto mission statement, kind of around the church is all of life is all for Jesus. All of life is all for Jesus. And they read that and thought, dude, they're saying all lives matter.

Like it's like, and I'm like, dude, stop, stop reading into stuff. You know, on the flip side, maybe this is a bigger one, but man, I, back earlier in the summer, I had kind of given an update to our congregation. We had given one and a half million dollars to churches hardest hit by COVID. And so trying to toot the horn, I was just going, man, we expected to get financially really hit hard, you know, and we didn't. We're really generous, but we had friends, churches, networks around the country who were just getting hammered by COVID. And so we said, man, God, we want to be generous. So Redemption as a whole. Yeah. And so I was given an update explaining, you know,

about half a million went in the Bronx, relationships like City of City Network, we're close friends with there, probably black and Brown leaders like leading on the front lines who are really just getting hit hardest by COVID in that season. Um, another big chunk went on the Navajo reservation, uh, up North, uh,

where they were just getting hammered. If you remember, you know, last summer by COVID. And so I made mention of that. And shortly after this rumor began circulating based off that, that we were funneling millions of dollars to Black Lives Matter, the organization. And I was like, like, what?

And so literally, like, stop reading into stuff, you know. And so literally, I mean, this is even like two weeks ago. I'm in my office with someone who's like they left a while back and they've been members and they haven't responded to communication. And finally, they're ready to talk, you know i was like well what was it you know and uh it was like well i just became so upset when i found out we were funneling all this money to the organization blm and i'm like dude why didn't you know like why didn't you come and and so anyways you that's just like uh the tip of the iceberg. That has felt symbolic. My sense would be like, dude, this last year, the national narratives have become so polarized and strong.

And I'm talking about that, right? That's nothing new. But what I found pastorally is like when people are entrenched in those narratives, like if you say something here uh you know kind of audio like i'm pointing to the side you see something here and people over here think you're saying way over here you know or people down here think you're saying way over here so people are often reading yeah way to what's being said way more than is actually being said uh so honestly yeah in uh one of our congregations probably about about 1,500 people left out of about 40% or so of the congregation left. And my bent would be, I think, over rumor and innuendo. Like there were five to ten influential people who were angry and left because it was kind of the, you guys are doing CRT, Marxism, We never even talked about CRT Marxism.

You like kind of like, did you even mention the words race and justice or something, you know? And like, they're just going. Uh, so there were some influential folks that just started slander and gossip and like spreading lies,

like accusing, uh, the church of saying things that were never said. And so anyways, and that stuff spread. I mean, there were even other ministries and leaders who tried, I think, kind of poured fuel on the fire and capitalized on it.

But I think, man, that issue of people reading into things and slander and people being more shaped by some of the national narratives than actually life as the body of Christ on the ground have been, it's been crazy. Have you reflected on is the body of Christ on the ground. But then it's been crazy. Have you reflected on just the psychology of that? The last couple of years, I've been fascinated with the psychology of interpretation. Exactly what you're saying.

What's going on in their brains and maybe their background, their journey? what's going on in their brains and maybe their background, their journey, what's feeding that really skewed interpretation. I've had people read books of mine. For example, I think within the same week, I got emails from people who read my book, People to be Loved. One of them threw it across the room when they came to the part where apparently i advocated for conversion therapy reparative therapy um and then another person couldn't get past the first chapter because i was radically affirming of same-sex marriage i'm like these are two like you guys should get the same because it's like you're reading two completely different books because i i do neither one of the i mean none of those are true but and yet they're two polar opposite views um so it's not like oh everybody kind of reads you as more progressive

than you really are it's like people are reading me as either radically conservative radically progressive um and that's i don't know the last few years i've just been fascinated at that exactly your first illustration of like all life life is for Jesus and all lives matter, therefore you're a racist church or whatever, the conclusion they would draw. It's like, what is, I mean, is it simply they're just bathing in polarized narratives fed to them from certain news outlets?

I mean, is it as simple as that, you think? Or is there more going on? Hmm, man, that's a great question, man. One of the most helpful things for me this season has been, on that front, I think has been Jim Mullen. So he's a, we co-lead here. We're kind of co-lead pastors here at the congregation. And dude, he's just brilliant, man. He needs to be here. I'm going to butcher this, but it's been really helpful. He led some of this stuff. Uh, we did a thing last year called King of Kings campaign, kind of summer fall approaching the, uh, election season, all that.

Just tried to help equip our folks to think, uh, gospel, you know, to have a gospel framework for our political engagement and all. And his observation, one of the things that was really helpful for me related to the psychology kind of where people are coming from with this i think was um his observation was like dude the left right categories don't seem to do justice to what we're seeing today you know uh because even amongst the quote-unquote left and amongst quote-unquote right there's division hostility yeah yeah totally and what he did you know is kind of like if you envision like uh you got the line like the the right to left line you know but like a top

down line of like the modern post-modern of going like four quadrants here you know and a lot of uh there's and these four corners so if you think of like the upper right sort of the modern right and he had a key word for each one that was kind of felt like a driving the value sort of defining these areas so the upper right kind of the right i grew up in would be more the word might be uh responsibility it's using like reagan air and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you know like take responsibility for your life. Maybe today, even like a Jordan Peterson, you know, make your bed. Yeah.

Take responsibility. Where upper left was more like progress, like kind of we can change the world, Clinton's foundation, like let's start the nonprofits and things that, you know, let's end hunger and poverty, let's change the world. Lower left, though, and where you kind of go on the post-modern wing now post-modern left uh it was more like identity is the driving thing like looking internally and and who am i how do we yeah affirm the internal self-expressivism those kind of things where in the lower right was more uh security like the sense of like dude there's a sense of threat like there's things encroaching on we have a lot of people and uh and so for me that became helpful is almost like uh because

we're in an ideologically diverse environment as i was meeting with people and encountering you know just our congregation um recognizing those underlying values where i think a lot of people wanting that value to be elevated and affirmed or then hearing if you're speaking to a different one it felt like you were you're for that room over there kind of thing right yeah and uh and I think Jim's observation too is just how all four of those we see in the kingdom I mean we see responsibility we see progress like Garden of Eden you know impacts of the biblical era but we see responsibility we see progress I mean, we see responsibility, we see progress, like Garden of Eden, you know, the impacts of the biblical era, but we see responsibility, we see progress, we see identity, we see, um, we see security. But when those things get, those become idolized and overly elevated, it seems to be what's happening in a lot of sort of the popular discourse today,

you know, is like the idolatry of those things things and so we were trying to look at them as four political religions you know like modern religions dude if you were pastoring in your church and one day like 50 of your congregation converted to buddhism but they were still coming you know or maybe more of it is they're showing up and acting like nothing happened you know like oh well hey yeah jesus to you and we're here whatever you're like no there's a discipleship crisis like you've've converted to another religion, you know. And in the church, like the observation, Jim's observation and ours is going, dude, we've got people left and right in churches in America now converting essentially to other religions. But they don't call them that because they're rooted, though, in the idolatry of these various things that are good things but have been made ultimate things yeah and so i don't know back to the psychology i think that that for me has been helpful just

kind of like i feel like a lot of what i've seen driving things for folks is an elevation of a certain ideal and a cultural narrative that's wrapped up around that that thing that's been idolized would you say that that i mean, national or more specifically political, even more specifically, let's just say partisan allegiances in the church, would you say that this is creating a, I love your phrase, discipleship, what did you say, catastrophe, not catastrophe, crisis? That this is creating a discipleship crisis what did you say? Catastrophe, not catastrophe, crisis. That this is creating a discipleship crisis in the church. Would you describe it like that? Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the main reasons, you know, too, is not just like, I think we think of discipleship, like the personal life of the individual. I think more like discipleship is a part of the community of faith, like the body of Christ, the community of believers, because like my conviction has been, dude, we need each other. Like we need, all of us have our leaning or our flinch towards some of these different quadrants, so to speak, with some of these different views. And we'll probably have strengths in those areas. And I think as the church, as the body of Christ, we're, we're stronger together than we are alone, you know, staying at the table together. But I think it's tearing the body apart. And that's, we're, we're stronger together than we are alone, you know, staying at the table together. Yeah. But I think it's, uh, tearing the body apart and that's it, you know, like, because people are abandoning and it's not saying you got to be centrist or something like that.

You know, it's, it's almost like you need to hold all four extremes at once, but in the right way under the Lordship of Christ. I mean, I've talked to people and this equally on the left and the right. And I would say, I've, you know, I like the quadrant. I need to,'ve talked to people and this equally on the left and the right. And I would say I've, you know, I like the quadrant. I need to, I need to consider that more. I think that's probably more nuanced. But, you know, I would say, you know, more the radical left, radical right, or people that just are really, they're all in on one tribe or the other, you know, either Trump is the Messiah or he's the Antichrist, you know, either in the kind of anti-Trump hysteria has created this almost

messianic complex surrounding Biden and the people who's rescuing us. You know, if Trump is either Satan or the Messiah, then Biden is either the opposite too. It creates almost this reverse effect where the same messianic complex that some people wrongly have towards trump from the right it's almost like that's just there's this whiplash effect for the other side and i've talked to people on both sides that like i'm pretty good and they've some i i can i've i've quotes in my head that are unbelievable where they're like coming from either far left far

right like i just i just can't be around anybody on the other side. I'm like, so you're trying to tell me you can be around another Jesus follower who voted for their side. Like your unity in Jesus is not enough. Like you need political. And it's like, it's just, they just can't like, that is the enemy. I'm like, this is, and I talked to pastors. I mean, you said 1500 people left the church or. Like, that's not uncommon. That's a high number. But I mean, almost every pastor I talked to said, this is, this is, this is, we are being divided across political lines. You've been in ministry for a while, Josh.

I mean, have you seen anything like this before? Because we've always struggled with blending our national identity with our kingdom identity. Have you seen anything as polarized and as much of a crisis situation as what we're seeing now? Dude, man, it's, I haven't yet internally, you know, like within the church, internally, the life of the church. And yeah, I have not yet. I'm sure another church has been through it before, but in my personal experience, no. But I've been really, I mean, just struck by, inspired by, like, dude, Jesus bring in the tax collector and the zealot, you know?

And I found myself wondering, like, dude, what the heck were those campfire conversations like at night after a day of ministry and walking with Jesus together? You know, and just going, because, like, back in the day, like, tax collector, I mean, they were, like, working for the man, the oppressor. They were, like, extreme on one side, you know, and then you have, like you have like the zealous one to burn the whole thing down and extreme on the other side. And so, I mean, it's not. That's a proud boy and a Bernie bro. Yeah, totally. Or the leader of BLM. And I mean, everybody's going to hate those analogies or whatever.

No, it's people who are fundamentally opposed to each other, but part of their discipleship journey, but also their radical conversion experience is leaving behind those allegiances for a brand new allegiance, right? I mean – Totally. And that can be messy as all get out, you know? You know, and I mean, I've been struck to just some of the research work on the early church that scholars have done. But just the claim that one of the most controversial things to the Roman Empire for the early church was the cross section, the crazy cross section of people that it brought together around the table had across ethnicity across class across uh gender like people gathering together and their common identity is one to eat together to share a meal together to be together as one and that that was just unheard of like the shockiness of that and i think one of the challenges just for the church is that we're unwilling to be together. As soon as something comes up, I'm out for many. And I think it reveals where our real allegiance is.

Yeah, totally. How have you guys handled the, I guess you kind of mentioned it a couple times, the race conversation? Because that does seem to be one really important area that Christians need to press into. And yet again, they're taking their cues, I think, from really strong opinionated voices across the spectrum. And I think you're a helpful voice here for those who are watching the podcast and know who you are. Just imagine all of humanity kind of melted together into one human being, and that's Josh Butt. Like you are the most ethnically like composite person. What's your ethnic heritage?

And you ministered largely in kind of more white dominated context. Yeah, totally. So my mom is Mexican and my dad is Irish. So that's kind of the main backdrop there. You can pass for anything, right? I mean, you can go anywhere in the world. I had a buddy back in the day and he was like man you should uh you should model josh i'm like yeah i'm ugly as all it out and he was like yeah you are oh thanks a lot he's like you are but it's like dude the thing and you know today is like you know that you would look at someone

identify like hey that's my that's my brother that's my that's my man you know and that you would look at someone, identify like, Hey, that's my, that's my brother. That's my, that's my man, you know? And he's like, like people have guessed over the years and people have guessed, like, are you Eastern European or Israeli or Latin America? I haven't gone to Asia yet. I haven't gone anywhere else in the world people have guessed, you know, and, uh, but man, no, I had someone, uh, recently someone left the church, uh, but recently I remember, you know, and when asked why, they said, that Mexican Jew talked about justice, which was literally like their word. And I was like, whoa, dude.

And I'm like, okay, A, I ain't Jewish, but Jesus was. So if you have an issue, you got to make that up with him. You know, like, and B, I am Mexican. I don't know what to do about that for you you know like but like i mean the accusation of uh social justice i'm like there are a lot of versions of social justice out there that are not biblical but biblical justice is always social you know and so yeah i do feel like the person and talk about biblical justice and as far as how we've been approaching the race conversation, like I mentioned, one of the strengths at Redemption is we're 10 congregations across the city.

And we've got a lot of diversity in our leadership when it comes to leaders within Redemption across the board, as well as different lead pastors in different contexts. the board as well as different lead pastors in different contexts. And so one thing recently we had, we called like a gospel and race forum where we did a lot of online just because of the season that we're in with COVID and all that. But on this gospel race forum, part one was trying to lay a theological foundation for why race and justice is so important. There's a document that a number of us, we have kind of a theology team that I'm part of, but really props to Seth Trout, who's out there. Seth really led the charge in developing this document, but ran it through the grid with input from a lot of our various leaders here within Redemption, as well as friends nationally, and really put together a theological statement that was declaring proactively, here's what we believe about this, and really

basing that on, I believe, a healthy, robust biblical foundation. So we did kind of the gospel and race forum. Part one was seeking to front load that, going, this is why this is a gospel issue that we're not backing down from. And part two, I think, was and is, of the process, man, seeking to elevate and listen to voices, perspectives of trusted leaders within the body of Christ, both here within our church body as well as nationally. And my sense, you mentioned the CRT thing, my sense has been like the best defense is a good offense, right? Because I would say, dude, there are a lot of really unhealthy versions of or visions of justice out there. I think my day, man, CRT seems like complex. Like, what do you think it's like?

Ask me what I think of sociology. It's like there's so much diversity. But I would say, like, honestly like honestly man i have a lot of concerns with a lot of the ideology there's uh you've probably seen the book cynical theories yeah have you read that is that good i've heard it's good i listened to james lindsey quite a bit i've been following him for a while um yeah totally and so one of the things that's been interesting is like when when I see a lot of like. OK, so coming from Portland, you know, I feel like I see a lot of the extreme, like the ideological foundations of a vision for justice. It's actually often really unhealthy and leads you down a dangerous road.

And so I see a lot of those tendencies there. and lead you down a dangerous road. And so I see a lot of those tendencies there. But then being here in Arizona, I also see there are some figures who are maybe more on the right, that may be over generalization or something, but folks who are maybe more on the right who are using the language of CRT

to shut down any conversation around race and justice. And so it's kind of, so I think trying to navigate that. So on the one hand, so what we've tried to do is really front load. This is why we believe this is a significant gospel issue and provide the biblical foundation for that. Rather than getting in the weeds on – I mean I've got my concerns about some of the unhealthy ideology that's driving maybe a lot of popular level stuff today. But I also think there's good biblical reasons and foundation and gospel vision for justice. And maybe part of that is just going like, well, I know that's a rabbit trail.

I won't go down that road. No, yeah. on the trail. I won't go down that. No, yeah. I mean, when people ask me, with any kind of slogan or broad brush kind of term or concept, my assumption is that people don't know what they're talking about in the very question they're asking. Not that they don't, but my assumption is I'm going to need you to define that term, that phrase, that slogan, so that I know what you're actually asking. But yeah, when people ask me, what do you think of CT or CRT? I'm like, ask me in five years

when I've read all the original sources and stuff and really understand, you know, like I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a lawyer. I know it was a began in more legal conversations and stuff. But if you ask me like more specifically pointed things, like, do you think it's, and I'm not saying this is CT necessarily. I just don't know.

Do you think it's healthy to divide the world in terms of like, there's the oppressor and the oppressed or something? I know some people say that's a big part of CTE. I'm like, well, I think that there's structural evil. And I think that people in power can often, you know,

abuse that power. The Bible talks a lot about that, but simply because you're maybe being oppressed doesn't alleviate you from moral responsibility either. You know, when I use the example, when the Israelites, you know, were in slavery for 400 years and they left, they started grumbling, you know, God's like, stop, you know, it's like, like they still have moral agency. And that's actually when you get, when you know it's like he like they still have moral agency and that's actually when you give when you respect somebody's moral agency i think that actually is very empowering um yeah uh this is something it's interesting because i listen to so much such a wide diversity of people and

some of the most interesting voices i've been listening to are secular um uh black, not conservative, but they would be very critical of CRT. They would be more classic like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X brand approach to social justice, which they would see as very different than the so-called anti-racist Abraham McKinney and D'Angelo and other approaches today. Like the anti-racist movement is one way to address racism. It's not, sometimes the term can be taken as like, if you're not anti-racist, you're a racist. Like, no, that's a, anti-racism is a real specific kind of approach to addressing racism. And some of these black intellectuals like Glenn Lowry and John McWhorter hughes and many others are they from again i'm not saying i agree with i'm just saying it's very interesting that

they would say that some more modern they would say post-modern approaches to racism are actually disempowering they're stripping um african-americans or people of color with from agency which actually has a reverse effect and it actually is in a roundabout way. We're very dehumanizing. It's super, it's just super interesting to me. So I feel like I'm, I'm going to listen for about five years, maybe 10, maybe 20 before I really, I think, understand an issue that it's not, and probably never will be like my area of expertise. But at the end of the day, I love what you said. I mean, Christians, the Bible is extremely unambiguous. You said it beautifully, Josh.

I mean, the gospel comes with social. What did you say exactly? Not social implications. You said it stronger than that. Yeah, there are many versions of social justice out there that are unbiblical, but biblical justice is always social. Yes, I like that. That's stronger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a concern for structural injustice and wealth and poverty and the abuse of power and how oftentimes people with high social status and wealth and power abuse that. That's extremely

People with high social status and wealth and power abuse that. That's extremely easy for it to happen. These are just basic biblical themes. I wonder, going back to your misinterpretation thing, I wonder if people are just so bathed in secular arguments that it's skewing their ability to see that some of these things overlap with Scripture. Even though the Bible might frame it differently. These issues themselves are very much biblical issues, you know? Yeah. And one of the things that on a very practical level,

I think on that whole CRT question, when people ask, you know, what do you think? One of my questions is where that question is coming from for them. Cause I found there's two different motives. Like on one hand, there've been the folks who use that question to shut down or dismiss like any competition around race and the gospel and all that um I mean there's some MacArthur you know people are saying dude if you even talk about these things you're veering away from the gospel and just going yes yeah no you're like that's not that's not accurate um but then I found other folks I think who are um uh really

wrestling with going man it feels like there is an ideological foundation under a lot of the popular movement that's happening today that's concerning and I placed myself in that category like going yeah there's like I think that is a legit conversation to try and shepherd people you know and it's interesting as you mentioned even within the yeah the the cynical theories book was interesting because it distinguishes i think critical theory as a whole which by and large is very crazy to me i mean it's just a puko on speed with all over you know um then critical race theory is kind of a distinct thing and when it walks through our history you know is and i'm

no expert on this so i'm just yeah yeah, um, but even like two camps within it, how the seventies at form more legal, like, uh, around legal intersection of race with, uh, legal issues that were impacting society post Jim Crow, post redlining, all that. Um, but then these two camps kind of the, what we call it, like the materialist camp, uh, was, was more focused on concrete issues in society that, that were impacting people in prisons, schools, housing, education, those kind of things. And then what became more of the more postmodern approach, which was more focused on linguistic analysis and very more subjective things like white privilege and implicit bias and those kind of things. things like white privilege and implicit bias and those kind of things and I'm not saying those things should be off limits from conversation but I remember processing with friends here last year when things were really going down one of my concerns I raised and I feel like this hit this that hit in my head was going like I feel like a concern I have with a lot of kind of the Kendi D'Angelo popular there's stuff privilege, all that kind of thing, is I feel like it really internalizes and subjectivizes and psychologizes like this. These issues that are more concrete, like the legacy of racism impact that has impacted the social fabric and structure of our society. And so I get more excited about going how in our neck,

so here we have a, one of the things we've tried to do practically is create, we call these prayer and action groups, which is going, dude, instead of get off the Facebook keyboard, get off of online, like one of the best things we can do,

it's not saying you can't, it's saying, what if we heavy up our emphasis on actually being leaven in the dough, like actually getting our hands dirty here in our community. So what's happening here in Tempe? So we've started, we want to, the goal is like, you got to be in it for a year and you have to commit. So you got to commit to a year with a group of people. You're going to read intensively to kind of learn and educate, you know, on the stuff. You're going to be committed to prayer and then like through this year on this, and then you're going to be committed to action and then like through this year on this and then you're going to be committed to action like going

What is something concrete that we can do here in Tempe here in our city? So we've started one that is like criminal justice reform and another that sanctity of life and both of those you'd happen we really educate ourselves and learn well like the issues as a whole and the issues in our city and how can we Be praying prayerful and how can we get our hands dirty and do something concrete on jews and one is exciting too is i've seen it's it's drawing a cross-section of people who are ideologically diverse yet committed getting their hands dirty here in town you know well i love so i mean you said criminal justice reformed and then sanctity of life so all the republicans will get excited about the sanctity of life.

I don't know if you intentionally, but I mean, there's, in a sense, that's, I mean, it's all, those are great causes to engage in. sense are giving various ideological options for people across this political spectrum so that they engage in social justice on whatever is driving them and to show them that social justice is not just a democrat thing goodness it's a christian thing um that's so good totally yeah and i think that's been one of the you know i know because we're in this ideological diverse spot with the campus and yeah you know that part of town everything we're in uh you know one of the things that we try to say as well is like there are some of you who are really hoping we'll back down on the sexuality conversation there are others who are really hoping that we're going to back down on the race conversation and we're not, you know, like we're going to be in order to be biblical, like these

are, we're going to be about both, you know? And yeah. How did you guys handle the sexuality conversation? I imagine, yeah. Being next to a, in a college town, a lot of college students and everything. Um, has that been something you guys have had to engage in? Have you navigated that? Yeah. So, uh, you know, I've tried to address it you know in my preaching well regularly we just had a we call first wednesday so once a month we have kind of a forum where uh we did our last one on sex dating singleness marriage uh i'm starting a um uh kind of a cohort next month digging into some of the gender uh issues and plan on using your new book embodied as well to get people you know processing through that um yeah and so a lot of it has just been through kind of our existing like pulpit events okay forum and things like that yeah

kind of a different question but i wanted to ask you this. So like, I know COVID has obviously rocked the church and one of the ways it's rocked the church is it's, at least some churches, it's kind of forced leadership to say, what are some things we did pre-COVID that we need to keep in our discipleship rhythms, our liturgies of discipleship? And what are some things that now looking back, we're like, I don't know if we need to kind of like resurrect that again. Have you

guys gone through that kind of like, who was it? Phyllis, Phyllis, Phyllis, Phyllis, Phyllis, somebody cleaning out the attic. You know, every 500 years, the church has a rummage sale, she says. And kind of says, all right, here's some things that need to go. Here's some things we'll keep for the next kind of stage, this new cultural movement. And I think we're in that kind of transitionary stage, like given the internet and 9-11 and globalization and now COVID and things are very different than they were 20 years ago culturally.

And yet some churches look exactly the same. And I think sometimes it's healthy to say, what do we need to maybe change or do differently to cultivate stronger rhythms of discipleship? Have you guys had that kind of self-evaluation? And what have you come to in that? Yeah, well, part of our evaluation has actually been going, it's been interesting just as we've kind of the the regathering process uh this last year and all um finding man we're finding a ton of new folks coming to faith coming to like not church hopping but encountering jesus for the first time wow and uh and it feels like god's doing something coming out of the season i mean my sense has been there's been a bit of a pruning

with some of the stuff we talked about earlier you you know, but then there's also like kind of this re-up that's happening. And so for us, it's been a conversation about how do we get more like back to the basics and almost like a replanting mindset. How do we replant the church? I mean, I feel like the core of our congregation has done amazing, you know, has endured through COVID, has stayed in it, whether together in person or online or, you know, it has been in it. But it does feel like, dude, how do we, you know, one of the questions, how do we almost like replant the church on the other side with a fresh view? We've always had, I think, a bit of transience with, you know, just the college dynamic. People are here for four years and then often we'll go uh but even more so i think some of the things that we've kind of been uh

maybe had a reputation for but known for in the past have been in episode on gospel and culture like our all of life is all for jesus going how does the lordship of jesus impact all of life and so going back to uh some of the stuff we've done that we want to kind of re-up and get back to has been like we call them surge tables but it's basically an intensive discipleship in a small group cohort environment that pastors are helping lead and really helping people get into how does the gospel connect to um all of life not only culture but vocation is a big one so we do uh we do something called all of life interviews that my buddy jim here has has led over the years i think is really

powerful but it's like once a month we interview someone on their job like on their vocation what they do for a living and they they will talk about it through the grid of like creation fall redemption restoration so we'll ask questions about how, how it fits within God's creational vision, the fall, like the fall, how does the fall show up? Uh, the last one was on someone who's a coroner, you know, and is, uh, uh, forensic examiner, like examining dead bodies from homicide and stuff during the day and hearing, hearing about how, creation the fall redemption

restoration so that was really powerful uh and then these first wednesdays again kind of these monthly gatherings where we try and really hit some of the pressing topics that people are wrestling through but in kind of round table discussion not just talking like getting getting people really talking together um and then how we push stuff through our um how we try and help equip people within our communities we've got about 40 to 50 communities out of our homes throughout the week and so you guys you go you don't shy away from hitting the tough conversation sounds like you guys are we'll talk about whatever is whatever hot topic people are wrestling with you'll you'll go there yeah yeah that's great

because i know some churches are scared not scared but like would be reluctant to do that um because no matter which if you hit a hot topic somebody's gonna be upset you're gonna get emails people are gonna leave um you're gonna rock you know you rock the boat and stuff's going to happen. Even if you do it well. Have you experienced that or do you feel like people has been just part of the rhythm that people are here because you guys touch on these things and they like the way you do it? Or do you get loads of emails after you have a gospel and race conversation and their sexuality? Yeah, I think it's interesting you know i do think there's something helpful about creating avenues beyond sunday and kind of beyond the pulpit and the

sermon because um uh it's not like we're afraid or shy away from addressing things that need to be addressed there with the text but i think sometimes the the amount you can really get into in a conflict like i mean one of my observations, well, it feels like there's a new national liturgy, you know, sort of like the crisis of the week. And every week there's another, the big thing, and everybody wants you to talk about it on Sunday. Like, if you, you know, you got the crowd that's like, if he doesn't mention this, I'm leaving.

This isn't a real trip, you know. And if he does mention it, I'm going. And my concern is partly like, I'm not saying we don't ever address and there's a pastoral sensitivity in the sermon to, OK, when it's spoken. But one of my concerns with that is like I feel like that national liturgy of the crisis of the week can co-opt this liturgical system of entering the sacred story, It's a story of God and it's happy for the world and so I do feel a bit protective at times for for what happens in our corporate gathering together as God's people around word and sacrament and Gathering his spirit through all that but making sure we create a lot of avenues where for discipleship that There's space to really do some of the deeper dive and to think theologically,

to think from a gospel. Yeah. Creation. Yeah. We really need to. That's great. Yeah. I like,

yeah, that's a, cause he, yeah, I, I see both sides. Like if some, I remember,

well, a few years ago, I remember there was something, I forget which shooting it was, but the race conversation flared up. Might've been Mike. No, it wasn't Michael Brown. It was after that. well a few years ago i remember there was something i forget which shooting it was but the race conversation flared up uh might have been mike no it wasn't michael brown it was after that um and i remember it was like everybody's this is on everybody's mind whatever i'm like that is like on a thursday maybe i'm like showing up on sunday i'm like if he doesn't mention this

i'm gonna say how tone deaf are you but and i think he did actually i was happy and i think we had a prayer and everything even something like that some acknowledgement that yes we are not tone deaf what's going on but like you said like you have such limited time and you need to you can't just be controlled by every cultural moment that wags it's like you have to build in healthy foundations of spiritual formation, right? And worldview and just simply engaging the text of scripture. And so I like this idea of having a rhythm of space outside maybe the Sunday rhythm where you can have more of a forum engagement on cultural issues. I don't even like to frame it that way,

but like discipleship issues that are integrated or related to the broader culture. But I always said, you know, I don't envy your pastoral job, Josh. Being a pastor, it just gives me anxiety thinking about it. But the one pastoral position would, that I did actually would excite me is something like the pastor of like cultural engagement where my job is to hold bi-monthly forums on a Sunday evening, two and a half hours, two hours Q and a, you know,

present on abortion, present on race, have a conversation present on sexuality, economics a conversation, uh, present on sexuality, um, economics, vocation. I mean, there's so many just broader issues that are rarely really addressed thoroughly on a Sunday morning that that something like that could excite me where I'm allowed to kind of be me and not be so worried about all the emails I'm going to. If I had that job though, I would not have an email address. I would say part of my job requirement

is somebody else. No, I'm just kidding. Anyway, Josh, I got to go. You got to go. I'm taking you over your time. Real quick, tell us about the two books. You've written two, right? I haven't missed one, right? Give us the elevator pitch about the two books, because these are two i haven't missed one right tell give us the elevator pitch

about the two books because these are two brilliant brilliant incredible books that everybody needs to be aware of if they're not already aware of them so yeah what's the what are the two books yeah so skeletons in god's closet that is uh trying to help people who wrestle with some of the tough topics of the faith um particularly the subtitle is the mercy of hell the surprise of judgment and the hope of holy war i just Mercy of Hell, The Surprise of Judgment, and The Hope of Holy War. I just kind of go, I don't think that's how most of us think about those. But I want to suggest we often have a lot of caricatures in our culture about what's actually going on in those topics, and that when we reframe them back within the biblical story and with kind of a robust historic orthodoxy, that they're actually really even beautiful and powerful.

Orthodoxy that they're actually really even beautiful and powerful. So yeah, skeletons in God's closet. Yeah. Emphasis on the goodness of God and how that aligns with these topics rather than contradicts them. The second one is called the pursuing God. And that one is how it's not about us going out to find God. It's God coming after us. So really centered on grace and just what for me has been like the

heart of the Christian faith, that this is God coming after us and our world. The middle of the book gets into themes like atonement, some of the questions of, I think, some of the critiques that will have the Trinity and the cross, how do those fit? Things like sacrifice, wrath, relationship between the father and the son and what's happening on the cross. Trying to, uh, critique some of the, the caricatures that are out there.

And, uh, out of what I'd see as kind of a healthy, the book will view. Yeah. Yeah. That jog, that jog,

you jog my memory. You, your, your treatment on penal substitution was, I think some of the best, the best out, out there where you, where you again you you you you deconstructed some of the caricatures and framed it in a way that was so much more robustly covenantal and biblical i don't i can't repeat exactly what you said but i remember when i was reading i was like this this is and it was

so just clear you know it's not like overly academic, but it's, you clearly have read loads of loads of stuff. So yeah, Skeletons in God's Closet, The Pursuing God, amazing book. So if you haven't read them, you got to read them. So Josh, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Round, man. Thank you.