Theology in the Raw - 860: An Honest and Raw Conversation with Francis Chan

Episode Date: April 22, 2021

In this conversation, we talk about his remarkable encounter with Benny Hinn, his recent thoughts on church unity, how he’s revisited his beliefs about the Eucharist, and we reflect on the pros and cons of being educated at The Master’s College (now University) and Seminary.  Francis Chan is a pastor, writer, speaker, missionary, and evangelist. Most of all--he’s a Christian who loves to spend time with. Francis has written many books, including Crazy Love, Erasing Hell, and the recently released Until Unity.  Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content that is behind a support wall. I do a lot of Q&A podcasts and blogging and discussion with my Patreon community. So if that interests you, if you want to be part of the Theology in the Raw community, then go to patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. All of the info is in the show notes. My guest today is Francis Chan. Do I need to?

I probably don't even need to say anything else. Francis Chan is Francis Chan. So, yeah, in this conversation, I'll be honest, man, we get pretty raw and honest. And that's what I love about Francis is he is who he is. I don't know if I've ever actually told him this. I know I've said this publicly in a few different places. But you know how, you know, big name, famous Christians, like people who are on a stage, like there's usually a gap between who they are in real life and who they are on the stage. That's true of almost everybody

I've met. When it comes to Francis, in my experience and friendship with him, I don't see a gap. That radical, passionate, Jesus-loving preacher that many of us kind of grew up following and learning from, that really is who he is behind closed doors. When he wakes up every day, he is truly excited to be in the presence of Jesus. And it's not a show. It's not a thing he puts on. It's just who he is. And a lot of that comes out in this podcast. on. It's just who he is. And then a lot of that comes out in this podcast. We also talk about some pretty, I guess, vulnerable and raw stuff in both of our backgrounds with our theological

environment that we grew up with. So anyway, hope you enjoyed the conversation. Without further ado, please welcome back to the show for the second time, for the second time, the one and only Francis Chan. all right hey friends i am here with a old friend of mine uh up and coming speaker uh one of these days he might actually make a name for himself um We'll see. He just released his first book a few weeks ago. Francis, thanks for coming back on the show. Appreciate it. It's good to see you and good to be back. So what's the title, full title of your book that you just released? It's called Until Unity. And it's based on Ephesians 4 about how the leaders of the church are supposed to equip the saints until we attain to the unity of the faith okay so so what what what uh what are

you going to stir up with this book like i'm sure like tell me let's just dive in like what's the most like what's the thing in the book that's gonna like really make people either upset or challenge or stir some feathers? Well, I think anytime you pursue unity, anytime you get out of your little circle, people are going to get angry. So even to have discussion, I'm sure you run into it with some of the people you have discussions with, like a lot of people from our old crowd must really hate you. Yeah. I mean, not as much as they hate me, but they hated me first, so they're going to hate you also. They hate me because they first hated you.

How's that? Yeah, exactly. Man, I have this belief from the scriptures that if the spirit of God dwells in a person because he or she has absolutely trust in the blood of Christ for their salvation, I, deeply that person rather than hold them at at arm's length and pretend I don't know them to appease my circle. You know, it's the that level of love he calls us to. And so I know there's going to be comments like, oh, he wants unity at the expense of truth. Yeah. And he wants unity at the expense of truth. Yeah. And he wants unity at the expense of holiness. But it's exact opposite. Like I am more passionate about the bride being holy than ever.

And I am very passionate about truth and false teaching. truth and false teaching. Um, but you know, I think it's just, I've been a little humbled over the years of things I was so sure of that I study further. I pray about it more and I'm going, gosh, I don't know if I'm so sure about that anymore. Yeah. So, I mean, this book captures kind of a journey you've been on really. And I don't know if, I don't know how many people listening know that you've really kind of, you're always learning. You're always learning, rethinking, and you're willing to change your views on stuff. With regard to Unity, and especially the thing you're talking about, like really being, having more of an expansive view of what Unity looks like. What are some things in your journey, maybe the last few years, that have kind of caused you to go back and rethink this topic? your journey maybe the last few years that have kind of caused you to go back and rethink this topic yeah you know i was always told by my circle what other groups were like um so i just kind of

stay away from those groups because i've been told about you you know whether they're individuals or whatever but then throughout my travels over the years, I meet some of those individuals that I studied in seminary, you know, and you go, whoa, that's not what I was told about you. You read the Bible, you know, like you really know the word of God and you really cannot stand sin in your church. Why would they say this about you? You know, and you you start building these relationships and hearing from their mouths. And then on top of that, you know, I get I just read the news about myself occasionally. Not anymore, but I'm like, whoa, what are they saying about me? Why would they say that? And you realize, Oh man, that's what other people did. And I believed what others wrote about

them without even asking them. Yeah. I realized we live in a very unfair time where when people are trying to push their mindset, uh, you know, they're gonna squash mindset, you know, they're going to squash others, you know, for whatever reason. Yeah. And so now I'm just at this point where I'm going, oh, I am so sorry for people to people that I've slandered before I really knew you. Sorry for just listening to what others said about you, or maybe catching one phrase that you said improperly and making assumptions about you. I don't know, just as I got to meet these genuine brothers and sisters in Christ, I realized I really missed out. Not only did I slander you, but I missed out on everything that God could have taught me through you, through the gift he's given you.

I know one, and if I start wandering in an area that needs to be more private, just let me know. We can either edit it or just leave it alone. But I know one relationship, or at least speaking engagement that got you into trouble, I saw was with Benny Hinn. Right. And that's probably one of several. But like, are you able to talk through like what that was like getting to know him and sharing a stage with him? And I know you're just is he one of the guys you're thinking of that you used to probably speak really negatively of? No, I still don't know him. Like, you know, he jumped into a picture

i was taking a picture with someone else that i don't know he photobombed and then benny like hey can i jump in i'm what do you say uh no you don't know why you know this is gonna ruin my reputation you know it it wasn't that uh so i don't i don't know him that well but i will say this uh and i i wasn't sure he was going to be at the event um but uh a friend my friend andy who started out who led the ascend he told me there was a chance he was going to invite benny and so he says do you you mind? Uh, I'm about to have lunch with him and some others. Could you come along and just help me sort through this? And so I went, I mean, all I know of him is just watching him on television. Obviously just he and I are very, very different opposites in many ways.

But when I was there at the lunch, it was I'm not exaggerating. It was the most shocking, surprising encounter with a person I've ever had. Why? That's crazy. Hey, so we get there, there's like six or seven of us in my group. He's got like six or seven people in his group. We meet him at a hotel, a banquet room or something, you know, I'm sure he paid for lunch and, uh and he just says, hey, can you guys start eating? I have some things to share. And so I'm like, sure.

And he starts, he just starts off going, he goes, I want you guys to know I have really, basically said I've made a mess of my life. He says, I have not been close to Jesus in years. He says, these last two months, I believe it was about two months, he says, I've changed things around where I just block out time where no one can get to me. And it's just me being with Jesus. And I, he goes, and it's, it's changing everything. It's changing my life. He goes, but he goes, I don't know if you guys believe that, that, that God can actually lose his trust in you. He goes, but I believe God no longer trusts me. And he's taken the mantle off of me because I got too into my friends, too into money, too into fame. And and now all I want is him. In fact, he goes, why don't we pause for a moment? I want to play this old hymn that I was just worshiping God, you know, listening to this hymn the other day in my office and just, you know, can we just have

some silence and worship the Lord? Just you, just be alone with him. And so I'm just like, what in the world? This is not what I'm expecting. And then after we had this time of prayer and I'm having a wonderful time of fellowship with the Lord, you know, it's old him. I think it was my Jesus. I love the, you know, and and here's this man just repenting of so many things. And he points to me now. He didn't know me because we're in much different circles. And I and he says, you young man. And that's why you know me. I'm like, not that young. And he goes, God has taken his anointing or his mantle off of me. He doesn't trust me. He goes, but you young man, he trusts you you and he's going to manifest himself to you.

He says, but you better love Jesus more than you love. If you're married, your wife, your kids, your money, your reputation, you better love him way more than all of these things. You know, don't make the mistakes that I made. And I'm just like, I'm just sitting there dumbfounded. Like, this is the last thing I would have expected from this lunch. And so I did begin praying for him after that, going, Lord, you're doing something in his life. for him after that going lord you're doing something in his life i cannot imagine the pressure he must feel from his circle his world and everything else and then when i did see him at a different event in brazil or something i don't know we had a brief conversation but um it was just I don't know. I don't know.

I know that he's made some public statements about denying the prosperity gospel. Really? And it's wrong now when he repents of it. And he even talks about how he ran into some young people who live life differently and it's impacted them. And I'd like to think I'm maybe one of those that may have helped out or something. And I don't know what he's doing today. He may be doing crazy and asking for all your money. But I'm just saying, like, gosh, that was pretty powerful.

And I am not vouching for anyone here. powerful. And I am not vouching for anyone here. I'm just saying, gosh, I don't know what else to do than to pray for a person like that and love someone like that and ask God to continue to reveal things to him and maybe even use a guy like that to teach me some things about something I don't know. That was a couple of years ago? That's fairly recent, right? Or three or four years ago? Maybe like a year and a half ago. Oh, wow. Okay. We had the last interaction.

I think Brazil was just a little over a year ago. Wow. I should get him on the podcast. What's his email? Give me a second. Yeah. yeah i mean that first session that i was with him at that lunch uh they were taking pictures and afterwards we were like hey can you destroy all those pictures just because i just didn't want to cause any confusion um but yeah it's like who's to know, you know, like how far to take these relationships and how that's the way there's there's a circle that is so panicked that you shouldn't have even spoke to him.

You shouldn't have done this. You shouldn't have spoken at a conference he was at. And OK, so was I not supposed to go to lunch okay i wasn't supposed to eat was that you know like where are you getting all of this how do you know these parameters yeah and like well you're harming people around the world by being in a picture with him um is that is that you got really critiqued for that did people i think I saw one headline that was like, what's Francis Chan doing with Benny Hinn or? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. There's, I, again, I've had to stay away from headlines and articles and stuff because it's just too much. I deleted all my social media from my phone my news apps i don't read amazon reviews i i try to pay attention to what i would think are good thoughtful humanizing criticism

you know by somebody who's like no i'm trying to understand what you're saying i do have some pushback i want to learn from yeah but most of the guy if you google your name nine out of ten stuff that comes up is just not. Anybody with an internet connection to keyboard that's angry is going to post something. Well, it's their opportunity, too. They can sometimes be opportunists. Like, well, if I just exposit a passage of scripture,

no one's going to listen to me. But if I bash this guy, I'll get a lot of reviews, you know, and that's kind of the, yeah, that's, it's like Jay-Z said, you know, what did he say? If, if you, if I shoot at you, I'm brainless. But if you shoot at me, you're famous. Oh, it's so good. It's so good. We're good. Yeah. Not that I love you.

I stopped responding to people even on social media. I think somebody told me. They said, you know that person is just trying to get attention, right? Like they're trying to use your platform to get a name. So when you respond, you're just giving them, you know, I'm like, oh, that's a good point. Plus I just, who has time to respond to every little comment here and there?

So I just don't, I just ignore it. I mean, I don't even see half this. I don't see most of the stuff because I just don't have time to just sit there and read everybody's little comment. But yeah. What are some other, I guess, steps or even people or events or even theological themes that in the last few years, maybe you've there other events or people you've met that helped you to have maybe a better view of unity?

Yeah, so obviously I think there's people in the charismatic world, which I guess you could kind of label me in there now, whereas before I was absolutely against everything. And, yeah, just some godly, godly people like the IHOP movement with Mike Bickle. Yeah, man, the guy who loves the word of God cannot stand any sin in his life, in his life or in his church um fights against it he hates any excesses in that world and and i'm thinking wow i thought you were like the king of excess he's like no oh he's just like oh when the people are like ah the spirit said it you know i'm like whoa like you think

that he goes yes because i hate He goes, look at my office. It's filled with MacArthur commentaries. You know, and I'm like, what? So and just seeing his lifestyle going, oh, what a godly, godly man. I will absolutely stand with him. He is my brother in Christ. my brother in christ um and you know guys like that um probably the another one that really bothered. And the leader, he I was at an event like an evangelical event, but there was this this thing that was happening concurrently, which was for charismatic Catholics. and he said the leader comes to me and says hey do you mind just stepping into our meeting and sharing the gospel and he says before you answer he goes let me just explain

i've we feel like there are so many people within our church the catholic, who have never heard the gospel. And in fact, some of us are actually excited when they leave our church and go to an evangelical church and hear the gospel for the first time. We want you to come in and present the gospel. Would you present the gospel to our people? And I thought, oh, man, what do you say to that? No? Yeah, no, no, nope, sorry. Yeah, no way. I only share the gospel with people who already know it. I just thought, you know, I'm kind of stuck because I'm thinking I everything I do gets filmed or, you know, whether it's someone's phone or they actually record it.

And I thought, oh, there's going to be people that are going to be so angry at this. But before the Lord, I had my two son in laws with me. And my gosh, what do you guys think, man? And they're just like, gosh, it just seems so much of god and so i get there and this is the first catholic all catholic event i've spoken at and uh the leader gets up and he says first of all you guys need to know francis agreed to come but he is basically taking a bullet for you guys because he's going to get hammered and you guys may not realize that but he he is basically taking a bullet for you guys because he's going to get hammered. And you guys may not realize that, but he he is he's going to get hammered.

And and we need to stand up for him if we ever get the opportunity. And then he says he goes, my wife actually believes that Francis Chan is the greatest Catholic preacher alive. Please tell me you didn't just say that. Like, what are you talking about? And, but it's, it's the idea of reverence and sacredness and caring for the poor, you know, that I, you know, I think he feels like I'm just standing for the holiness of God. And maybe in a world of where there's a lot of silliness and goofiness. But then after that, several priests come up and they take my shoes off and start washing my feet and praying for me. And then they asked me to share whatever is on my heart.

And they're sharing, look, we just want people to really know Jesus. We want them to have a good understanding of the gospel. Would you share with us? And I'm telling you, with us. And I'm telling you, I'm not saying it's all feelings. I explained to you what they were saying. I'm explaining what's coming out of their mouth. And I told them, look, I know there are differences and I know there are issues. There are things I'm still trying to wrap my mind around, like, how can you believe this then? But I cannot deny that at least the people in this room, your understanding of the gospel is very, very similar to what I believe, if not the same thing. And I don't know what to do with it still. There's a lot of, I learned when I was doing my PhD, a lot of misunderstanding with the Catholic understanding of faith and works. That's something that really blew me away because I was, commentaries and scholars by Catholics talking

about justification by faith and grace and faith and all these things. And, and there were some, some nuances that I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure I'd line up on that, but man, it was not at all this kind of working your way to heaven and you earn your salvation by works. And it's like, it was way, way more careful than that. I'm not saying that some like lay Catholics in the pews or whatever, they just like might not have a very workspace, whatever, but I know lots of Baptists or evangelicals that do the same thing functionally, but on the higher up, I'm like, man, these differences are, there's differences, but they're not nearly as dramatic as I had thought when it comes to like soteriology, the priesthood, the Pope and purgatory. There's

some things like, yeah, I just can't get on board with that. But, um, but man, I think, yeah, I think there are more similarities than, than we grew up. I mean, you and I went through the same tradition school and everything. And to kind of come back to your previous point, it's like, man, you start actually meeting the people that you thought were the devil or just so far out there. Like you don't match what you're supposed to be. What I was taught, what I was told you're supposed to believe. You're not saying you believe that, you know. Yeah.

And it's a tricky line when it comes to, you know, like at our school with Lordship Salvation. Yeah. You're constantly looking at your works. We're constantly telling people you can't just say right these things and say that you believe these things your actions have to show it well what does that mean yeah that's faith that works it's it's everything we were taught and uh because we were tired of this cheap grace and easy believism that didn't change your life. And so as I'm talking to these people, they're speaking the same language.

And I agree with you. Are there people that, you know, pick up statues and just, you know, that's all they see? Absolutely. And that's what this group is even saying to me, like, we don't want that. And so, I don't know. I'm just I just think we live in a time where I meet a ton of Baptists that I have a real hard time believing the Holy Spirit is in them by their actions, by their lifestyle, by the lack of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, you know, like, and, but would I align a little bit more closely theologically on paper? Yeah. Probably. So what do you, what do you do with that?

It's, it's about individuals. Yeah. That's just the world we live in now. Yeah. One calls himself a Baptist doesn't mean that they're going to heaven. And someone calls himself a Catholic doesn't mean that they don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Right, right, right, right. You get to know some of these people and you're like, wow, if we took a test, I would score similar to yours, I think. But we have very little in common. I don't know. Is that why you're wearing the collar? I didn't. I'm just kidding. For my podcast audience, Francis isn't wearing a collar.

I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Yeah, great. He's got a big hat. I don't want that one part, though. On that note, I mean, I know in the last few years, you've really rethought the role of the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist, whatever you want to call it, in the role of the rhythm of the church or like,

you know, as non-denominational, Baptistic, Reformed-ish kind of people like you and I are, grew up, you know, it's like the Lord's Supper is kind of, you know, maybe once a month or it's just, it's kind of part of what we do as Christians, but it's not, like you would never miss a sermon. You would never go to church on Sunday and like, yeah, today we're not going to do a sermon. Like, well, why am I here? But we would do that with the Lord's Supper, no problem. And yet for many Christians around the globe and for the last 2000 years, the opposite would be true. Like we might have a homily, but we are for sure. I mean, obviously, why are we here? We would never even dream of missing the bread and the wine. Anyway, so I'm probably throwing you too much

of a softball here, but we'd love to hear your journey and how you've kind of been thinking through the centrality of the Lord's Supper. Well, I've always wrestled with it, you know, whenever I preach, you know, just like I wrestled with preaching Acts after graduating from a cessationist seminary.

I just kind of breezed through real quick. Oh, yeah, anyone here, here, here, here. All right, let's get to an epistle. You know, you just don't want to deal with all those miraculous things. But in the book of Acts, you know, you have that Acts 242 that they devoted themselves, right? They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship and the prayer and to the breaking of bread. So it's like, whoa, that's one of the things, of the four things that that early church

devoted themselves to. And honestly, someone challenged me in my knowledge of church history. And they said, you know, it seems like all the church history you know is from the last 500 years. Do you know much about the first 300? And well, yeah, the Bible, you know. And and, you know, as they challenge, I'm like, I guess I really didn't take a close look. What did that early church do before they had a Bible? And, you know,

and what did they depend on? And how was God's grace given to these people? And as I looked in history and again I doubt I'm anywhere near where you're at as far as what I've looked into I was just surprised at how important the Eucharist was to them and and how there seemed to be a general understanding that it is more than just a symbol now how far to take it yeah I think there's variation but it just seems like for a good 1500 correct me if I'm wrong 1500 years or so there was you don't hear anyone talking about it just being a symbol. There may have been differences on whether it was the actual, you know, you know, or it actually turns into that when it comes into you or this or that. But there was something about the real presence in some way. about the real presence in some way. And it caused me to go, gosh, why did I believe it was just a symbol?

Well, because that's just what I was told. And it seemed like until, was it Zwingli? No, it wasn't Zwingli. I think Zwingli was the more simple one. Luther was, what was he? Transubstantial? I don't know. This is not my area at all, man. We're going to butcher this. I'm going to get some emails if I... Maybe I overestimate you. I think you know everything. No, I don't. My church history ends at AD 70. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I believe it was Wingley. It was the one that, um, you know, took communion away from the center of the church and put the pulpit up there. And, uh, and he was the first

one to really propagate that, Hey, it's just a symbol. There is no real presence at all. And so that's what, even if most churches, I think most denominations today, if you look doctrinally, they'll still believe in a real presence, but you would never know it by the way they practice. It's very, you know, they grab it on your. I mean, even if you don't have a real precise understanding of what you believe the elements are, to me, that's one important question. But another one is, what role does this event play in the liturgy, the rhythm of the church, right? I mean, again, the fact that we can get away with doing it once a month or even a tack on or even like, I don't know, it's just

in almost every evangelical setting I've been in, it's just, it doesn't, it kind of like, we don't understand it. We're kind of like, you know, if you have any sin in your heart, don't take it, whatever, but like, other than that, it's kind of like, we're just kind of doing it, but not really, I don't know.

It's like, I'm not sure if we understand what we're even doing. Yeah. Sorry. Someone was knocking on the door. It's fine. No, it's fine. Is that cool? Well, don't you have like 15 kids or something in the house probably? No, I'm only, I'm down to four. Oh my God. I don't know what to do with myself.

You got to. Oh, actually my married daughter just came back. I mean, not like with her husband. You're a grandpa, right? I am. I've got two kids. Oh, my word. Yeah.

Yeah. What's your name? What do they call you? Grampy or grandpa? Oh, they use the Chinese because they were born in Hong Kong. One of them was, so they, uh, they call me Gong Gong, which is grandpa in Chinese. No way. Yeah. Can you talk about, um, and I'm sorry, we're going to wander around, but I mean, you were in, uh, how long were you in Hong Kong? What were you doing? And you're back now, whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

I'm sure people are wondering what's he doing now. That's a random jump from whatever we're talking about. Eucharist. Yeah. Uh, yeah, sorry. Um, someone was, a neighbor was bringing me eggs. That was nice. I didn't even thank him.

I was so preoccupied. It was nice. I didn't even thank him, really, really love them. Really beautiful, beautiful churches that, um, were started there. And now I'm still discipling the guys via zoom, but they're doing great. The churches are growing. Um, and so I just miss them. I love them. It was an awesome time with the family. I tell people I think it was the best year of my life. Really? Well, yeah. Think about this. Think about think about having your married children believing God is calling them to join you in a foreign country. And so the 12 of you go over to a country together and just start seeking the Lord and looking for opportunities to share the gospel. Like, who gets to do that?

I don't know of anyone who's got to do that. Who gets to do that? I don't know of anyone who's got to do that. So here I am with my children and grandchildren having these amazing worship times and then meeting these people out there. And it was just it was the best. and we are just like so sad because we were so happy but to see my kids like you know one son-in-law is like yeah we'll probably end up in oregon i may do something the other one's like yeah we'll go back to ireland and and uh we'll do something there and my family are going i think we're gonna go go to we're going to try Singapore because there's a travel opportunity there. And, you know, so it was sad, but I looked at them. I go, you know what? This is so amazing. I go, look, you guys, we're leaving in two weeks.

Like we're going to different parts of the world and everyone's in perfect peace like no one's freaking out i go man what is god's grace on our lives i'm just i'm just so happy to see my grown daughters being you know led by these men of god that will just take them anywhere god calls them to and so there's just a piece about that, even though there's a sadness of, oh, bummer, we're going to end up in different places in the world. So this is the first time I've seen my daughter in four months, and I just don't want them to ever leave again. But, you know, the Lord's going to call them somewhere, but it's pretty awesome. So you're probably not going to go back, right?

Or, I mean, you would like to, but not sure. Is that kind of up in the air? And then if not, what do you foresee the next few years looking like? I'm probably just going to teach on the Eucharist everywhere. With Benny Hinn. Yeah, I'll take communion with Benny Hinn around the world. I don't know what's next. I really believe that there is something God is doing in the U.S. right now.

I think the pandemic, the craziness of this last year, the amount of division in the country, of this last year, the amount of division in the country, it's causing many Christians, you know, are just walking away from the faith. And but there's another group that just they really do love Jesus and cannot let go of him, but they can't stand some of the division in the church and they are looking to be one and they're done with the nominations. They're done with, you know, being labeled in this box or this box or this box. And, and they really want this oneness that they, they see that God commands and they don't even know how to do it. I ran to a few guys just the other day at Chick-fil-A. They came out and they're like, hey, can we talk to

you? I'm like, about what? You know, one guy was a Catholic. One guy was a pastor from a Baptist church. One guy, and they're all working at Chick-fil-A now. We don't know what to do because we so love Jesus. We so see the unity. And I can't even talk to the people in my church about this. And they're like, I don't know if you're dealing with it. I'm like, yeah, I'm dealing with it big time. Like I just wrote a book about it, you know, like unity is huge in the heart of God, but they're like, but then if we started gathering, what do we call it? Once we call it a name, then it becomes like this group or that group. And I'm just like, you guys, first of all,

I'm so encouraged that you young men are thinking this way and that you're not bashing the church. You have a heart for the church and you just want to see the church come together and be about the right things and centered on the right things. And I said, I don't have an answer for you, but seek God together on this. And I just I think it's gotten so ridiculous. You know, sometimes it has to get so bad. You get so overweight that you're like, forget it. I'm going on diet. And I feel like that's the way the church, maybe we're finally at that point. Do you just see how ridiculous it is that it's every man for himself and whoever you're following is the only one that's got it right?

Has it gotten so bad that you finally go, OK, we got to do something? Yeah. And I'd love to be a voice in that conversation and in that urging the church that we have to become one. If we want to reach the world, Christ said, this is the way we do it. Yeah. I'm curious. And this is, um, maybe this is kind of me and you bantering more privately, but for the podcast with thousands of people listening, but like, cause I mean, for those who don't know,

both Francis and I went to John MacArthur's, you know, master's college and seminary and man, there's so many things that I valued from that experience, the high view of God, high view of the word of God, a huge emphasis just on the seriousness of Christianity and repentance. And I still have several professors I keep in touch with that I really value. And yet there is something about that culture that I'm like, man, I just, there's just some things that I just, and I'll say it, I, you know, I do feel like are toxic,

really. I mean, when I was in that environment, I was, a spirit in me was cultivated that everybody else who's not in this tribe is on a slippery slope, is kind of liberal or just kind of missing it. I remember thinking like, you know, they're like John Piper, like, well,

I don't know. He's not pre-trib, you know, he's a little charismatic. And I'm like, wait, John Piper's not biblical enough for you. Wayne Grudem,

you know, he's a little bit liberal because he Or Wayne Grudem, you know, he's a little bit liberal because his systematic theology was, you know, he endorsed it or had dedicated it to John Wimber and he's charismatic and all this stuff that I just like, I just don't know if that spirit of everybody else is missing it. That's one negative. Every educational context has pros and cons.

And I want to make that clear to everybody listening. Like, you know, because i think some people overly bash like a conservative or you know master whatever i'm like look there's a lot of good that happened there values i still have you know um but there are a few things that are just really disturbing that that i'm like man that it took me years to kind of detox from that to meet somebody who's, this is gonna sound funny to a lot of people listening, but like to meet an amillennial and not have that knee jerk reaction of like, oh wait, no, I think they might still be a Christian. I had to, they're like, they're not evil. Like I had to kind of get over that knee jerk reaction. I'm like, what in the world? Like where, that's just bizarre, you know? And,

and now I'm meeting, I've had loads of like women pastors on my podcast who love the Lord, love the Bible, wrestled with years with 1 Timothy 2. And, you know, and like, man, they don't, they're not just like drop kicking the Bible out of their feelings or whatever. It's like, well, we can disagree or disagree or whatever. But I mean, at least respect the journey and not tarnish their motivation and everything. And so, I don't know, man. Do you keep in touch with people in that environment? How do you view yourself in relation to that, your kind of upbringing and nurturing and that environment you're raised in? Yeah.

Is that fair? I mean, I don't even know what the question is really. you were raised in. Yeah. Is that fair? I mean, I don't even know what the question is really. I'm super grateful for the commitment to the Word of God that we were taught there and the work ethic that we were taught there.

But I will say, you know, my two years of Bible college and three years in seminary, those were the five worst years of Bible college and three years in seminary. Um, those were the five worst years of my life. Um, just if I could redo, I would do in a second. Um, and I'm not blaming that on the school. I mean, there was sin in my life. Um, but I also would say that it comes from an arrogance, a pride that was in my life with this, you know, I attained a lot of information, but I don't think I really knew any of those truths in a biblical sense. And I think because I came out just thinking everyone has it wrong except for me or us in this circle. And I was saying some very slanderous things toward brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I wasn't emphasizing the things that I now see emphasized throughout the New Testament. And just priorities. It seemed like there were just some priorities that were off. And but a lot of it that I look back on was. We just didn't talk about loving each other. I was trying to think, did I ever hear that phrase? It was almost diminished, like, okay, that's cute. Let Rick Warren talk about love one another.

We can do love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, too. You know, it was just like, we're scholars here. We're theologians here. Almost like, oh, and please don't talk about unity. That is, you know, like those types of things. Then you're immediately labeled someone who doesn't care about truth. And so I guess the saddest part about me was I was not a loving person. I didn't think about people.

I didn't. Yeah, I fought for truth as I understood truth at that time. But it was also very unfair now that I look back. And I was unfair to people. And I don't keep in touch with very many people. There are quite a few that have come out of that same circle, that have the same issues and talk about, wow, it's taken a long time to recover. And, um, they too have met godly people that were bashed by our school. And, um, I mean, I'm bashed by our school. I mean, I don't know of an alumni they dislike more. Were you kicked off the alumni list for a while?

I know several of us were, I think, years ago. Because you guys were my association. What was it? You did a couple of things on stage, I think, that they got wind of. I'm trying to think of what I think. Well, yes. And I even went back and apologized. It was the one time I went up with fake breasts and I was talking about this is what I feel like every week.

You know, come on up here. Let me feed you. Let me feed you. You know, when you should be feeding yourselves. And and so I even, you know, that's not what they said, though. They said, one, it was my association with Mark Driscoll. Someone else said, because I'm not a cessationist. And then someone else said, um, it's because that video with, with the fake breasts. And so, um, I, I actually ran into John at an event and I'm like, Hey, you know, I hear you're saying a lot of things about me. And, um, gosh, you have my number. Like, let me know what i i respect you like what he goes

well you did that video with the you know the fake press and it's it's online and i'm like i didn't even know it was online um you know i'll remove it we removed it i don't think you can find it um although some guy might have it and throw it up and it's making money off of it. But it, he says, look, I only say those things because I love you. And I go, well, then Sam to me, you know, like right now I'll, I'll find out how to get the thing off of line. If, if we are the ones that posted or whatever, like I'm not, not unreasonable um and so i don't know it's just it's just been a weird journey and now my association with other people just causes more and more of that recently there was one with uh todd white oh yeah was that why Was that YWAM or no? No, that was the same conference. That one really got me in trouble with Benny and Todd at the same one. And but as I've gotten to know Todd,

you know, because there's a picture of me praying, you know, as I felt like I was supposed to lay hands on him and pray for him before he spoke. And then afterwards, I mean, it was one of these in your face messages, like get that sin out of your life. You know, he was addressing pornography, lust of the eyes, anything. I mean, just and I'm just like embracing him, praying for him, just going, man, that was one of the boldest messages I've heard. But then it's like, oh, but look, we caught him saying this, you know, which he made a statement and he just it made it sound it didn't sound theologically accurate. He didn't nuance it right at all, but he was already confronted. He was confronted by Bill Johnson.

Really? Yeah. And I forgot who else. it might have been benny hen maybe i'm just getting there but i know bill was one of the guys that like hey really messed up on that and he's like i'm sorry sorry sorry sorry but it got around our old crowd and uh and so in fact someone from that circle was like, hey, I think you're being deceived by this guy. Why don't you listen to 20 or 30 hours of his teaching? Because maybe you just had, you know, so I listened to a couple hours.

I'm thinking everything I'm hearing is this. And so now it's like, why don't you listen to 20 or 30 hours? And you may realize, oh, we caught him saying something wrong this one time or two times, but out of 100 hours, man, you follow me around. There are a lot more bloopers than that. And I tell you that's true of anyone. Even when I told John that, I go, man, I go, I remember some of the things you said in chapel when I was at the college and you were a lot older than I am now. And he goes, yeah, but that was before the Internet and before everything was posted. I go, but you still said it.

You could erase the tape and I can't. So there's just it just felt unfair to me yeah but my my issue is not like anti my old school or whatever like that i mean i am so grateful i'm just i don't understand why there's such a need to uh bash yeah someone like myself, like I'm just going, man, I am trying and I'm trying to fight and hold the line on some of these issues that are absolutely biblical. And then the people I get blasted by the most are the ones that are supposed to be on my side.

I say it's almost like I'm getting beat up as I'm out in the world in this fight, you know, like I'm a boxer. And then I go back to my corner and my coach just knocks me out. Whoa. You know, like that's exactly what I feel like. I go back to the corner and they're the ones that have their gloves off and are sweating. And I'm just going, Lord, I don't even know what to do. And that's why for years I just gave up on unity. Like, it's not going to happen. Let me just get busy with caring for the poor and other things that I know I can help with. Well, this could be the time. And I have to fight for it because God cares about it so much. Do you have a certain denomination or even

Christian subculture or tribe that you would resonate with the most? Or do you feel like kind of a mutt, I mean, or homeless? Or if you could pick one kind of group to say, these are my people, who would that be? I mean, I often ask myself that question. would that be? I mean, I often ask myself that question. It's you, Preston. It's whatever you put. No. That is a great description, a mutt. I've never been called that, but I will take it gladly. Because here's what I found was, I would go to these events, I would speak at the pastor's events of all these different denominations. And I'd go there and I'd go, I really like these guys. I mean, I really like, you know, at least the ones I got to know, like, I'm not faking it. I'm not up there. Oh, I love you, brother. You know,

I'm really hanging out back there and going, I really like them. Yeah, I could be, you know, out back there and going, I really like them. Yeah, I could be, you know, EV free. Oh, I could be conservative Baptist. Whoa, I could be Church of Christ. Whoa, I could be, you know, I'm four square, go on down the line. I meet these people, even like those priests I talked about that are washing my feet, and they're describing their concern for the gospel. I'm going, gosh, feet and they're describing their concern for the gospel i'm going gosh and you believe in the gifts of the spirit and you're i i don't know what i am i really don't i i i don't know what to call myself anymore because i've learned so much from those i used to just oh, liturgy and like, oh, stand up, sit down and reading these prayers from hundreds of years ago. And what does that mean? And now I'm going, whoa, people have prayed that same thing for hundreds of years.

And you're not just making it up off the top of your head. That's kind of cool. Yeah. You know, and and now it's like, whoa, you just prophesied over me. And there's no way you could have known these things were true. There's no way on earth. That is crazy. And so I'm going in these different circles. And then I think when you see humility, like, for example, Church of Christ pastors conference. And I'm going, wait, you guys don't even believe in music. And, you know, and and to have the leader go, yeah, we really can't support that one biblically. I'm like, whoa, like they're just admitting like, I don't know what to do with that one.

I mean, it's kind of been our tradition, but I don't see where we got it biblically. You just go, wow, thank you. Some of these, you're not so sure you're doing your best. You love the Lord. And now you're second guessing some of the things that are your traditions because you're not seeing them in scripture. That's pretty cool. So that's why I'm a mix. And I'm not trying to be like a, I don't know, chameleon.

I'm not. I am who IHOP, Mike Bickle, one of his staff last year said, do you realize every time you come, you rebuke us? I go, do I? But we love it. Like it's you and you're challenging us on something that you see that is off in what we're doing. And how do you not love someone that is like, thank you, we needed that? I don't know. I love a lot of people. One of my greatest joys in the ministry that I do as an organization, we get to work with

15, maybe 20 different denominations. Add to that various species of non-denominational churches. And honestly, I 100% resonate with everything you're saying. Like every place I go, I'm like, I see so much beauty and goodness and things that I'm like, man, that is so cool the way you do it that way and your emphasis on this and that. I'll be in a charismatic church one Sunday and then a Reformed church the next Sunday and then a Baptist church, well, not too many Baptist churches, but an evangelical covenant church or whatever, Anglican.

There's so much gospel. There's so much similarities too. Just yesterday I was speaking all day at a four square church in Beaverton, Oregon. It's like, gosh, this church feels very similar to 10 different denominations I've been in because they're just passionate about Jesus, the scriptures, following him. And so, yeah, I don't know. There's a group of churches called new frontiers it's based in the uk i really like uh they're gonna love this because it's small denomination not even denomination but network network of churches they're charismatic kind of reformed without the arrogance they're

very gospel very gospel centered very, very just raw and real, they're not overly churchy. And they're very, very missional, very multi-ethnic. And I just, man, I spoke at a conference a few weeks ago, and I was like, man, this feels like family here, man. Yeah, I love them. Their founder, Terry Verger. Yeah.

He and his wife, Lisa and I, spent like a week with them in the UK. Really? Speaking at this conference. And just great, great people. And he was telling about beginnings. And because he was seeing what I was doing with the small gatherings. That's the way it was. That's what we started with.

And some of them got big. But the humility, the love for Jesus. Yeah, I could be one of them yeah they have better accents but like they just were great yeah great people did i i just see spirit filled lovers of jesus um but yeah that's the way i feel with a lot of people. I feel like people are missing out. Yeah. And again, I am not saying truth doesn't matter. I'm just saying, okay, this morning, for example, I am just infatuated with John 13 through 17. And this season of my life, like I can't get out of it, which also was amazing because I memorized John

13 to 17 when I was 14 years old. 40 years later, I'm like, this is all I want to think about. I want to know every word of this because it is so deep and I didn't realize how deep it was. So powerful. And I'm even reading this morning in John 14 when he's saying, you know, Thomas is, hey, we don't know the way where you're going in Jesus. I, I'm the way, the truth and the life. You go here, you do this or you do this and then this and then this and then you'll get there. He says, no, I am the way. But then he says, I am the truth. And I never thought about this. See, when I think about truth, I think about all those books behind you. Then if I want to know truth, I need to read all those books behind you. And then there's a trillion articles online. And if I really read all of those and figured out who was telling it, that's how I figure out truth. And yet Jesus is saying let me get more information. He himself, it's the person,

it's knowing Jesus. Otherwise, we're saying the illiterate can't know truth. And all the generations that didn't have all these books can't know truth. And even this morning, God was showing me, like, you really still are stuck in this post-enlightenment education mind. This is the way truth and there's something deeper. There's something deeper like right now as people are listening. It's not just about you and me saying bits of information and them getting it into their ears and into their cognitive reasoning. And now they know truth. No, we're talking about something else that has to happen by the spirit to enter into the inner man. And that's not the way I was raised. I was raised with strict information. And because you have to be more, you have to be logical enough

to figure out who's a little bit off and who, you know. And so now I'm the center of logic and it's up to me rather than knowing this person, like knowing him, really knowing him. That's what he was saying. I am the way I am the truth. I'm the life. Life doesn't come by doing all the things. Life comes from knowing me and I will abide. I'll live in you. Like I was looking at that verse where he says, if you love me, you'll obey my commands and I will love you and I will manifest myself to you. Like, what does that mean? And, you know, they're like, well, how do you manifest to us and not to the rest of the world?

He doesn't know if you love me, you keep my word. My father will love you. We'll come to you and we'll live in you. It's all about this relationship and this obedience and this this knowing of him, which is truth. And so I'm just the more we we stop staring at these mysteries and going, OK, God, I I don't get it. Like last time I I led in the Eucharist, I'm like, look, I don't know. All I know, this is an insane mystery that somehow God in all of his glory speaking speaking the world in existence, became flesh. And somehow in that act on the cross, his blood was shed and his flesh was broken.

And somehow that transfers into me. And now I don't know how that I don't know how I get perfectly cleansed. And I don't know why he says eat of my flesh drink of my blood like and i don't know what it'd be i'm just like shocked by the mystery of this whole thing and in awe of it and the more time we spend just in awe and reverence saying nothing and just going why would he do that? Wow. How could he be so good? The more there's going to be a unity and a oneness. But the more we think that, no, my I understand things better than you because of my IQ, my ability to reason, my teachers were better than your teachers, whatever it is, the more we're just going to divide and the more we make it

more on earth like it is in heaven where everyone's just staring at him going oh my gosh holy holy holy I really see that as the only way we're ever going to be united as a church wow gosh man that's so

good is that a glimpse of your book I mean the last five minutes of your... Yes. Thank you, Preston. It's available on Amazon. No, it's some of it. And some of it, I'm learning daily after writing the book, just realizing that it's sacredness that maybe we're missing. And if I could retitle my book, it'd be called Sacred Unity. Because I think we've just lost the thought of what's sacred. And in a society where everybody's so divided, so polarized, the church has a wide open opportunity to model a different way, unity across differences, you know, like a wide open door.

And I'm just saddened, but hopeful. I'm saddened that we haven't times reflected the very polarization in our churches that exist in society when we could say, yes, we have Democrats, Republicans, we have communists and capitalists, but we get along because we all have Jesus. And that's the bond of unity, you know? But that's not enough for some people. And that's... Yeah. Yeah. I would argue that we really were the trendsetters in division. Seriously, I mean, the world just got more divided this year. You know, church has been a mess for a long time. Churches are splitting every week, every day. It's just, it's getting ridiculous. But I think God's doing something new.

You're hopeful. I really am. I'm super hopeful in this next generation. Yeah. Yeah. Many that are walk away and because they've never really encountered God, they're walking away from their belief system or their parents belief system. from their belief system or their parents belief system but if you really encountered him like like moses doesn't walk off mount sinai and go ah i don't know about my belief system right it's like you don't argue with that what how do you how does job after encountering god go yeah i think i'm gonna walk away from my parents' faith. You know, it's that true

encounter with God. Last thing, and I'll be quiet, but I'm just so excited about it. And in Isaiah 29, verse 13, how he says, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught to them by men. And, wow. And I thought, that's it. That's it. This is why people are walking away, is the fear of him was something that was just a commandment taught by men. Oh, I heard this message Francis taught

about the holiness of God, so I fear him. You know, my pastor was very big on that. And so rather than having a Peter-like conversion, you know, in Matthew 16, hey, flesh and blood didn't reveal that to you. That was my father in heaven. You actually encountered him and he put that in you. And so you're good. You know, it was the opposite of your fear of me. Whatever you believe about me was just something that someone taught you about me. You didn't encounter me because when you know him and you've experienced him in that real way. That's why First John says, well, they left us. They were never really of us.

You know, they say they know him, but you can't really know him and be in fellowship with him and and walk in sin. And that's why I just you know, when I heard myself once on an interview like this and I thought, oh, I sound so arrogant. I don't like that. I was arrogant at that moment. I thought, oh, that means I was not close to you, God, because if I was close to you, no one close to you talks like that. It doesn't sound like a man who's close to you. The high angels aren't going, hey, look at me. You know, they're just those closest to his throne are humble and and they're holy and they know better than to walk away from that. And so that's a lot of scattered thoughts. I'm just saying I just really want people to know him and experience him.

And so if you're thinking about walking away or questioning this or that, I just have to say, have you ever really encountered him? Or is this just something that people told you to believe and so you believe it? I think that's a good word to end on right there, man. Dude, so much more we could talk about, but let's cut it off there. Thank you so much for your honesty, man, and humility. And I just love, it'd be so easy for people. I'm 45, you're older than that. It'd be so easy for us just to kind of hunker down, hold on tight to everything we believe,

not really learn, not grow, not examine our lives. So I just really, I learned so much from you, man, just watching you being this perpetual, you're continually on a journey deeper into the presence of God and you're not letting up on that. And that yeah, it keeps me going. I'm sure it keeps a lot of us listening going. So thank you for that. Thanks for modeling that. Yeah. All right. Take care, man. All right. You too. Thank you.