Theology in the Raw - 865: One of the Most Influential Persons in My Life: Bert Suluavale

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

 I first met Bert in Fall 1997 when I transferred in as a Junior at The Master’s College (now University). Bert was one of my roomates and we quickly began a mentoring friendship. For the next 3-4 years, Bert poured into and helped lay some vital spiritual foundations in my life. He has been, quite simply, one the most influential persons in my life.  But Bert has his own tumultuous story, which involved getting saved out of a gang culture and thrust into the Christian spotlight as a singer, preacher, Chaplain, and mentor to many. After several years of major “Christian success,” he fell back into his old ways, even darker than before, and ultimately ended up in jail. He’s been slowly and faithfully building back his faith again, without needing the stage to validate his Christian worth.  Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have a very special guest on the show today. And I know I say I have a special guest on every show, and every guest is special in their own way. In fact, every non-guest is special. Did you know that you are special? I am special. We're all special. But this guy is special in a very unique way. Let me say it like this. I don't think there's a single person on earth who has had a greater spiritual impact in my life than Bert Sulevali. Many of you don't know the name Bert Sulevali. He hasn't written any books. He hasn't released any worship songs that I'm aware of. He is not a megachurch pastor. In fact, aware of. He is not a megachurch pastor. In fact, as you'll hear, he was a janitor for a couple years. Then he became a part-time pastor. Now he's a full-time pastor of evangelism at Arbor

Road Church. But Bert became incredibly influential in my life when I first, about a year after I first got saved, became a Christian, and I went to Master's College. At that time, it was called Master's College. And I was assigned a room in Sleight 4. Sleight was the name of the dorm. And room 4 was a dorm room that held about four or five students. It was kind of the old married housing. So it was kind of larger rooms. it was kind of like a suite, like two bedrooms and whatever. You don't care about that. But Bert was one of my roommates and just, I would say, one of my first and definitely my most influential mentor in my life. And he was an older student. I think Bert's, let's see, he's probably about eight years older than I am, I think. So I think he was, yeah, he was like maybe 27, 28 when I was about 20 when I got to the school. So older, but still a student. But so much of the way I approach Christianity and think and question

things and think outside the box, challenge presuppositions, pursue God more than theology. There's so much about how I even think through Christianity today that's due to Bert Sulevali. Now, as you'll hear, he's going to share a story. I don't want to give away too much of a story, but let's just say after he had served as a mentor, he ended up doing jail time and became a drug addict. And this is the second time he kind of fell into that kind of life. And so now as a pastor, Bert has several chapters, really interesting, unpredicted chapters in his theological journey, his Christian journey that was not foreseen, would never have been predicted by people that knew him when I first met Bert. So we've kept in touch for the last, I mean, almost 20 years now. And I was just like, I want to have you on the podcast. So yeah, there was no agenda to this. I just wanted to hear

people hear his story. I just wanted to reconnect with him. And towards the end, please do listen to the very end, because I think towards the end is where he really speaks really practically about how to kind of avoid letting the work of ministry become the kind of main thing. And as you'll hear, it was really doing the work of ministry become the kind of main thing, you know? And as you'll hear, it was really doing the work of ministry, doing a lot of great work in ministry that ended up eating away at his soul. And sometimes the Christian stage can be the worst, worst place for Christians to stand. And Bert, this is a huge part of his story. And man, I'm just excited for you to get to know my super, super, super good friend, Bert Sulavalli. If you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash Theology in a Raw, support the show for as little

as five bucks a month. And in the Patreon Theology in a Raw community, we do once a month Q&A podcasts that are released just to the Patreon, just to those supporters through Patreon. So if you do want, if you're like, man, I would love to ask you some questions or whatever, I do focus my Q&A time on my Patreon community. So again, patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. If you want to become part of the theology in the raw community and all the info is in the show notes. All right. Without further ado, I can't wait for you to get to know my very, very good friend and mentor. The one and only Burt Sulibaly. All right, friends, I'm here with my very good friend, man, Burr, we go so far back.

So, okay, I'm going to jump, here's where I want to start. It was a wow week, which for the people who go to Masters University, do they still, I don't know if that's still a wow week, but wow week is kind of that, that, that, um, that first week of school, they take us to the beach. I was a transfer junior. I want to say I was 20 years old and I'll never forget. We're at the beach, right? And we're playing volleyball and stuff. And I remember all these like nice clean cut little middle-class white Christians, you know, masters. And then, you know, we go over to the beach. And then here I see this Samoan dude standing out looking at – you were staring out at the waves as if you owned them. And I remember like, who's this guy?

You know, should I go – I was like, should I go witness to this guy? And then we started talking. It's come to find out you're like the chaplain at the school. And, but you even did like you, like when we met, like you didn't, like you just kind of stared, like you just listened and stared. You didn't really smile. You're kind of like, like, who are you? Who are you?

Like, you got to show yourself a little bit, man. I was scared. I was like, man, this chaplain is going to kick my butt like like who are you who who are you like you have to show yourself a little bit man i was scared i was like man this chaplain's gonna kick my butt i think you know do you have any recollection of that at all or is that just i do a little bit i'm thinking though that that might have been the day that my current senior pastor brent elders had to rescue me from from from drowning or from a riptide. Really? Yeah. Cause that was at, uh, Zuma, right? It was at, uh, no, it was at, um, in Ventura. Well, Zoom was in, um, no, it was at that park. It was at that park. And then there's kind of those dunes. Yeah. Yeah. Different year, different year. I remember that, but definitely, there was a year where I might have been staring out at the water

because I almost got pulled out. Is it in your blood? I mean, you're Samoan, dude. You and water, you guys just go well together. I mean. Don't judge a book by its cover, bro. Come on, man. We're beyond that, right?

Well, I was in, we were in tahiti um uh almost a year ago and man there was this dude that um we did some kind of like snorkel tour or something there was this guy this tahitian dude i swear he could have lived underwater this guy was the most and he's like but that's he just grew up like he grew up more in the water than out of the water and he would do like this deep dive spearfishing hold his breath for like three minutes four minutes i mean this guy was crazy but he's like he's like this is all i've known you know i mean i grew up on an island so yeah i mean i came i came from samoa when i was 11 so and i only lived there five years so um oh okay you know the thing is i i didn't i didn't get those years in with my grandpa you know but yeah people on the islands tend to um

be like water world bro yeah that's crazy um yeah well okay, so let's go all the way back then. Why don't you start with your story, how you became a Christian, and then your time at Masters. And then, I mean, your story, you've got many chapters to your story, and I would love to unpack as many of those as we can today. It's still unfolding, bro. It's still unfolding, bro. And it's still unfolding. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in a in a liberal church in in long in Los Angeles. And I don't mean that like in any political sense or like for anyone who's listening. There are Christians that that don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, that don't believe in the authority of the Bible. And I grew up in that kind of church. It's a very mainline denomination that's tied to the Samoan people,

because this particular denomination is what brought the gospel out to Samoa in the 1820s and 30s. So my culture is new to Christianity, you know. And so I grew up in that kind of church here in LA. It was an immigrant church. All the people that planted it and built it were people that came over in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, you know. were people that came over in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, you know. And so having grown up in that church culture, I heard all the stories, you know, but nothing was really personalized in terms of people talking about this personal relationship with the God of the universe.

relationship with the God of the universe. It was more like, um, there was a lot of social, um, um, like emphasis, you know, to, to like, um, like, you know, being one with everyone and, and, and loving, accepting everyone. But the, the teaching of the scriptures weren't really, um, emphasized in terms of personally. Right. Yeah. So anyways, I grew up in this church culture. And then as a teenager, man, I was I became a little a bit of a bully, you know, when I was 12, 13, because I've been bullied my whole life, you know. And then I knocked someone through some bushes and I looked at my fist and I went, oh crap. Like, okay, I could do this. So 12, 13, I turned into a bully myself and I was a scrapper. And then when I was 14, 15, around that age, early high school, got jumped into a gang. Um, and we're not talking, you know, gangs that move, you know,

drugs or anything like that. Just street thugs, knuckleheads, you know, getting high and drunk everywhere. You know what I mean? Like, you know, um, um, menaces, menaces to society for sure. Um, and so that sort of became my existence Throughout my teen years I don't know how I got out of high school But they kicked me out They gave me a diploma and kicked me out But yeah, like

Mid to late teens Drinking a lot Hanging out with the violent crew and doing drugs and and um you know sleeping around with girls and things like that just really steeped into all of that but yet still returning still attending church you know like mom mom was a single mom and she wasn't gonna have a kid that lived in her house and not go to church. So when I was growing up, my mom would, I mean, I would come home stinking drunk at 4 a.m., 5 a.m. on a Sunday morning. And she'll come into my room or whatever part of the house I was sleeping at the time and grabbed me by my hair.

I used to have hair. I can't picture that. And she'd grab me by my hair and say, get up and get ready for church, you know, and I would comply, you know, because I was raised in a culture where we respect our elders, you know, we respect the people that raised us, our grandparents, older people. So I would get up, I mean, I'd be mumbling and, you know, pissed, you know, that I'm hungover, but had to go sit in the choir, man, and sing. So I had sort of this, like, dual sort of life, you know, where we're just living in the streets, you know, wreaking havoc. And yet going to church every Saturday, Sunday, Saturday for choir practice and youth group stuff, you know, every Sunday. And then and then just go through the cycle again.

and then just go through the cycle again. And then, you know, my grandmother came to live with us when I was 19. And Grandma was a believer and follower of Jesus. But she was also crippled at the time. And so Grandma would just sit on the floor in the living room and just read her bible and i often would come home and after those nights of partying and grandma you know there would be a lamp on in the living room and grandma would be on the floor reading her bible you know just sitting cross-legged um like us tribal people do, and just be reading her Bible. And I would sneak in and go, like, oh, man, Grandma's up. Oh, crap.

You know, so I'm sitting in the kitchen, you know, trying to remove my shoes or whatever, and I'd hear Grandma say, is that you, Bert? Are you home? And I would say, yeah, yeah, Grandma. All right, well, get something to eat and go go to sleep. You know, I mean, she knew I was up to no good. She knew I was up to no good, but she was always gracious and kind and like that, you know. And so I think for the first time in my life, I actually encountered someone who said they loved Jesus, but wasn't caught up in all the behavioral, you know, and all the morality and all that. But really was kind and patient.

Sorry, there's an airplane passing overhead. There's an airplane passing overhead. Kind and patient and loving. Me even cared that she knows I was out drinking, but she'd actually make sure I got something to eat, you know. So anyways, that was my experience from 19 until I was like 21. And then mom moved away and started living with some other cousins in Seattle. Grandma. Grandma moved away, started living with other cousins in Seattle.

And by that time, I had people in the gang come to know Christ, witnesses just talking to us about Jesus and telling us about the experience that they've gone through. And people in my church started coming to know Christ, especially the Sunday school workers and people in the youth ministry. And then suddenly I just started getting bombarded with the message and I never really knew there was a message that, that required a response, you know? Um, but I began to hear that. And so at the age of 22, man, I'm at, I'm at this, I'm at this outreach thing where all the gangs and neighborhood were showing up up to because it was an outreach to the young people in the neighborhood. And that night I just heard the gospel in a very convicting but not condemning way, you know, convicting my heart about an eternity eternity separated from god you know and it wasn't even about like the it wasn't so much about the behaviors or the morality or anything like that it was it was literally the gospel of um could you would you would you step into eternity

you know without being reconciled to the creator of it all and and the one who loves you and the one who sent his son and you know and so that that message i received that message believed in it and gave my life um and this will this will come into play for the first time to to the lord when i was about 22. Okay. And, um, four years after that, man, I show up at masters, um, thinking God's calling on me is to be like this, you know, big expository theologian preacher, like, like the man, you know, the man who's associated with the school we went to. Um, and you know, that was, I showed up thinking, well, I want to be kind of like John MacArthur and know the Bible

and learn the Bible and preach the Bible. But I'll just put a little bit of oomph into it that John doesn't give it. And, you know, and we need this kind of teaching in the hood you know that so so that's how i ended up at masters um when did you first notice that you had this kind of preaching gift because when i first heard you preach i'm like dude this 20 something year old i mean you i wouldn't say kid i mean you were older than we were but you were still a student you were a student but i remember hearing you preach i'm like this guy's like as good a preacher as anybody I've ever heard. Was that when you were in your teen years or anything, or was it shortly after you got the master's?

Yeah, thanks, Pete. So that church event that I told you I went to and gave my life to Christ, that was hosted at my mother's brother's church. And my mother's brother is from the Assembly of God Pentecostal tradition. And he was my first discipler. But I mean, he didn't disciple me in preaching i just happened to watch him a lot you know yeah and um the way i remember him being described by by other christians that that have been walking with the lord longer than me was like he had this he was a machine gun evangelist he was like this you know he had he had this i'm like he was gonna mow you down like he's, you know, like he's, you know, I don't know if I could say this. I'll say it.

In a firing squad, you know? You know what I mean? We have machine gun evangelists here in Idaho, but it's more literal. They actually have machine guns. So, yeah. I would say he was the personal influence. Okay. So, yeah, I would say he was the personal influence of just the dynamics. And then reading and listening to John MacArthur was the part that I wanted to learn, which is the scripture you know and um yeah but but i feel like um maybe that's even part ingrained in my culture because um the simones are very passionate people um very you know you learn how to sing and

dance while you're learning how to talk and walk yeah you know um know, um, I remember at masters, someone saying, man, dang, man, you and your brother are good singers, man. We looked at each other and went,

um, we didn't feel like we were great singers at all. We just felt like we were Samoans. Yeah. Like me and Siona literally said to someone, uh, you should hear our whole family. Like we're,

we're nothing. When, when, when, when we were in Samoa those two summers, yeah, every church you went to, music was not like a sub-part of the service, you know, kind of get you warmed up for the main message.

It was like everything, music was just so ingrained in the culture, and it was all just off the chart. Like you said, nobody didn't sing, and they all sang amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. just off the chart. Like you said, like nobody didn't sing and they all sang amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

So, yeah. So even, even that part being a culture that entertains, I won't be afraid of saying that being a culture that entertains it, it was, it was always easy for me personally. I mean,

there's some, some ones that, that, you know, don't take to the stage easily, but it was easy for me personally i mean there's some samoans that that you know don't take to the stage easily but it was easy for me to be in front yeah you know yeah um it wasn't because i was also a musician you know like um sorry about that i was also a musician you know um and you know that's another part of my story that intertwined in the whole deal is that I always wanted to be a musical artist. You know, I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot of poetry. I wrote a lot of raps. You know, me and my me and my friends try to start a rap group, try to start a band.

But we drank too many 40s. Those people actually make it just talk about drinking 40s. Oh, man. I want to drill down into, let's just say you're at Masters, you're a chaplain, you're known as being kind of the spiritual, one of, if not the spiritual leader on campus. You're the best singer, best preacher. Can you go back to that time in your heart and your mind? one of, if not the spiritual leader on campus, you're the best singer, best preacher. Like,

can you go back to that time in your heart and your mind? Like, because that began to kind of a journey that kind of took you into more darker places, right? I mean, like so much, in a sense, attention and doing great. I mean, this is part of like, our journey together is even as you started to wrestle with stuff that took you to darker places, you were still shaping people, including me. I mean, I haven't recorded the intro yet, but I mean, I'll probably say something like, I mean, you have had more of a spiritual impact in my life than any single person. And it was during a time when it was you know you were going through stuff you know um what was it like being like just filled with all this just spiritual stage celebrity kind of attention in your world i mean man um man p uh oh where do i start i mean i i think part of it was really being recognized by one of our, I dare to say, one of our idols, you know. I remember the weekend that I graduated from college is basically the weekend that I met John MacArthur.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. the weekend that I met John MacArthur. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Two years before that, at a graduation, I met John MacArthur, you know, that was before my first year of being a chaplain. And, um, I was sitting back there and he just was, was standing by the entrance of the gym, you know, cause our chapel was in a gym. And all of a sudden, I'm looking to my right and like, oh, man, John MacArthur standing next to me, you know. And we, you know, we just, you know, shared niceties, you know. He's like, how you doing? I turned around. I said, hi, Dr. McCarthy, you know, shook his hand and, um, and, uh, just, it was a quick exchange. And then, um, and then, um, he started hearing me singing in, in the chorale and through that, he had invited me to sing at their church, um, after the chorale sang Christmas, like a Christmas

pageant at their church. And it was during that time that he began to hear my story, part of what I already shared. And one day he just said to me, hey, I don't know what your plans are after college, but I just want you to know that um patricia and i believe in your gift and we want to invest in it no matter what you do after college and that just began i think it's a little seedling of hmm i'm you know i'm getting i'm getting there i'm getting there yeah and literally man i want a wood pulpit that comes out of the floor like you. But I'm going to get there. And and and and so I think the other part of the journey was junior, senior, junior, senior year at Masters. junior, senior, junior, senior year at masters, um, you know, I, I lost track of why I was there. Hmm. I lost track of, this is a seminal stage. I need to spend time learning

because after all, I came as a non-traditional student. And so I was a little older than, than the rest, actually not a little, I was older by eight than than the rest. Actually, not a little. I was older by eight years than a traditional student. I started at Masters when I was 26. Right. And I think what I just I just got lost in the whole chaplaincy. I started doing a lot of ministry and forgetting that I was there to be a student, you know. And then I got involved at Church of the Canyons, you know, and then I got involved in training guys over there, and then I got involved in missions over there, leading worship.

And what happened was my plate just started getting more and more full, and I just lost sight of the realities. I lost sight of abiding, abiding in Christ, you know. Martha in Luke 10 is what Mary chose, which is sitting at his feet and listening rather than being busy about the work, right? I've learned that, man, over the years, it's usually the good stuff that you put in front of Christ that really messes you up, in front of Christ that really messes you up because there's nothing telling you you shouldn't be doing this stuff. Or that maybe this is not the right time. Maybe someone else can do it. But there's always a sense of like you had mentioned, well,

no one can sing like me, so I'm going to say yes. No one can preach like me, so I'm going to say yes. No one can sing like me, so I'm going to say yes. No one can preach like me, so I'm going to say yes. No one can disciple like me. It was all in my head that I started believing my own press about myself, that I was pretty impressive, that I was pretty badass. And I just lost sight of why I was at school. And then I lost sight of my relationship with Christ as the primary place from which everything else flows, you know. So I just got big headed and arrogant and full of myself, you know.

I also think, man, like just I don't think processing through difficult topics is is a problem. But I think when you're sort of in the echo chamber and you're in, you're really enjoying like pontificating and solving the world's theological issues with other 20 something year olds you know you tend to you tend to just let this thing grow you know until it's toppled over you know and um so yeah man um it became it became a situation where I was just busy doing a lot for the Lord, but not really like hanging out with him, you know, not hanging out with him, the reason for it all. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And when I say hang out, man, I'm not even talking about, you know, I spent 20 minutes reading the Bible, you know, then I pray for an hour, you know what I mean? That's not even what I'm talking about. What I've learned over the years is like this, this abiding, this abiding in Christ, man, it's, man, I believe I can abide in Christ while I'm driving, while I'm moving, while I'm, you know, there's just this constant connection with the Lord, you know? And one of the things, I forget the exact verse, but near the end of John chapter 11, when Jesus is about to raise Lazarus from the dead,

he says something to the, he prays a quick prayer to the father. He goes, father, I know you always hear me. But it's for the sake of these that I'm going to literally, I mean, it's for the sake of these that I'm going to say this out loud. Interesting. I never noticed that. Wow. It's for the sake of these ones around here that I'm going to say this out loud.

So, like, there's a glimpse into, yeah, Jesus went away. We don't really know what he did when he went away. You know, we just know that he went away. He might have gone up to the hills and just knocked out, bro. You know, or he might have gone up to the hills and let angels or birds minister to him. We don't know. But we know he went away. And the thing is, contemporary Christianity forces this spiritual discipline on us that we have to put a time and place together to get away and read our Bible and pray to the Father.

But Jesus says in John 11, I know you always hear me. And Paul says, pray without ceasing. And in Romans 8, 26, I think, if you don't know how to pray, the Spirit's praying for you. Hebrews 7, 25 says, when you do know how to pray, Jesus is praying for you. So how can you fail at connecting, you know? So it's all like that abiding experience is so multifaceted, so multilayered, so Trinitarian

in a sense. Like you said, you got spirit, you got the Son, the Father always hears you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And so I lost I lost sight of that, which I never even really had. You know, I never even really had that. I had disciplines and I had spiritual disciplines. I think spiritual disciplines are good and they can be helpful. But I don't think they're they're the way necessarily to measure anything, really. I think the fruit is the only measure. And even that measure, I mean, when there's bad fruit, the Lord just prunes, you know?

Isn't it like if there's bad fruit, you ain't a Christian? bad fruit, you ain't a Christian. So you were saying it wasn't just, because I mean, it seems clear that doing stuff for the Lord, doing ministry became your kind of primary identity. But you're saying even on top of that, you even had spiritual disciplines, but even kind of those became not heartfelt. Or how would you, is that the best way to describe it? not heartfelt or how would you, is that the best way to describe it or? Yeah, it was, it was disconnected from, from any kind of abiding.

Part of it too was being in school, right? I mean, we're always told by our professors, do, do your work. Some professors tell us, do it, do it, do your work in a devotional way. Some professors tell us, don't exchange your schoolwork with devotions. Right? So we have one professor that says, do your schoolwork in a devotional way. And you have another set of professors that tell us to not exchange your devotion time for your your schoolwork and so you have a bunch of confused 20 something year olds we're trying to figure it all out you know and i and i think i was definitely one of those who went all right i'm gonna make everything devotional and do no

devotion at all because after all isn't all of life worship yeah those are the kinds of things i was justifying my activity you know like i'm worshiping the lord by doing this yeah i'm worshiping the lord by doing this so who's got time i mean i never said it with my mouth but definitely with my actions i'm literally going who's got time to read their Bible by their lamp at 5 a.m.? I sleep to catch up. So this next chapter then of your life, so all this kind of started to catch up with you. And then, yeah, talk to us about that. Because I think that's, especially for Christian leaders hearing this, I mean, if people are honest, I think most Christian leaders listening can resonate with at least part of what you're saying, if not a lot more than just part of

what you're saying. Talk to us about this next chapter. What ended up happening? Oh, man. Well, as you know, because you were part of our circle of friends, people that did ministry together at Church of the Canyons. So I'd become, right after graduating from Master's College, I'd become the worship pastor at Church of the Canyons. You know, the next year or so, we began to build a worship ministry there that um it was pretty cool and involved most of the people were my friends you know uh sam and janine javier um you know uh

just just all of my friends brad brock was our elder and um tony kawaguchi, you know, we just start building this, this band. And I think, not, I don't think, but in the context of that, some, some of my flaws began to present themselves in a real ugly way, you know. And I just, I look at those things that happened, You know, I just I look at those things that happened, like had to happen, because, you know, sometimes the Lord, you know, being being providential and sovereign over all things, he he allows us to go a certain path for our own good, which is kind of crazy to think about, you know. And then sometimes he he he holds back, right? He, he prevents us. Um, but when, when I look back, I really, I really believe that it was allowed so that I could get to this place where I'm looking at my heart, you know? Um, because at this point, I'm just looking at this,, right, or the things that I think are spiritual results. And so impatience and anger came into play with, I think I became very task oriented. I became that really unpleasant Christian leader to be around,

you know? And if I told you some of the stories, it would, it would be funny because I, you know, I think I forgot these were my friends, you know, like this is a, this is a gang of people that were hanging out at Janine's apartment the night before. You know, you see what I'm saying? So so I show up at 7 a.m. and I'm like, man, why are you guys laying on the stage? You know, we church is in an hour and a half.

Like, well, we were just hanging out last night. Right. And then scolding became something I did often with that group. And it's crazy, man. It's so unthinkable, P. blow up, a bigger blow up that happened after another event. And that's when I think the elders, I mean, I knew there was an issue. I mean, geez, I wanted to kick my keyboard's ass, you know. Keyboard players' ass were accusing me of something that I i thought you know was completely untrue um there's something that spurgeon says i mean whatever it is people are saying about you you're probably worse than that

you know you're most you're you're most likely worse than that you know and and in that moment of i just got sensitive you know for being called lazy and and so if you could imagine here i'm doing doing doing doing doing doing doing my identity is found in doing and then someone says you're're lazy. Oh, yeah. And I have a job at the church where I'm working 60 hours, but I'm a part-time employee. I go to seminary. I'm carrying 13 hours, not doing great. Got to read all these books. I'm working graveyard shift at the guard shack at Masters. graveyard shift at the guard shack at the masters, you know, so so like my identity is in doing,

doing, doing, doing, doing, working hard, working hard, working hard, working hard. And someone says, I think all of this fell apart because you're lazy. Wow, bro. Yeah. And you know what? I could take it now if I sat and thought and breathe, you know. But in that moment, man, I just snapped. And, bro, we were in the prayer room of all places. You know what I'm saying? And the elders were having their meeting upstairs. And so if you remember the lay of Church of the Canyons, it's just this big empty space. The elders are upstairs having a meeting.

And they literally could hear me ripping through the worship team. Wow. And so, you know, one thing led to another and about they didn't immediately get rid of me, which I appreciate. You know, they were they worked with me for about a year, you know um had me meeting on it on a weekly basis one of the elders for accountability had me going through some books um and just but the thing is my my stuff needed professional therapy i'm not even gonna lie you know because it stems and i'm not blaming anyone my sin is my. But I think understanding ourselves and our old man is so important to learning like how the particular balm of God's word and the power of the spirit should be applied. I mean, all those broken places, bringing them, bringing them specifically

to the Lord, you know, I think that's valuable. Um, I don't think that has anything to do with standing, but I believe that has to do with, um, transformation, you know? And, and so, um, they were, they were helping me out for about a year. And then, and then a year later, another incident happened. It didn't have to do with anger. It had to do with money management. And, and it was just obvious that the Lord was like, this was his path for me because I needed to see this. I needed to see my heart, you know. So I got in a car accident without insurance, without my, you know, my car wasn't registered.

My license was expired. All this crazy stuff with me. Like, come on, man. I'm from the hood, man. Like, I wasn't paying attention to things, you know. The details, like, oh, crap. My license expired. I need to go to the to things, you know, the details like, oh, crap, my license expired. I need to go to the DMV. You know, I'm just doing, doing, doing.

You see what I'm saying? And so I get in this car accident. I talked to Pastor Bob and that was sort of the beginning of removal from ministry was i think the feeling was we've been helping you working through some anger stuff now some stewardship stuff and some some you know financial discipline and i think the elders just were like man i think i think it's time to set you man i think i think it's time to set you to the side you know and so it was done publicly and obviously i hadn't been connecting with jesus for for a couple of years you know in in the realest realist um sense and so my reaction to being removed publicly was mayhem. Maybe not publicly, but in my heart. I was angry. I was bitter. I was pissed, you know. And so that took me down a road of backsliding, if I could use that in this case, in a way that I had not expected, but that I understand now to be my sin, my old man, you know, unchecked.

And I just walked away from church for about nine years. Wow. A couple of years after I walked away from church to the canyons, pissed off at the world, pissed, they owe me. They shouldn't have done that to me. That kind of mindset. Um, I, I went right back into the stuff I was into before I started walking with Christ and it, and it was worse because this time it involved, um, with Christ and it was worse because this time it involved heavy drug use. I was addicted to meth for nine years

and I was hanging around all the biggest movers in my community. I was smoking meth out of a pipe six days out of the week, you know, that and and it was just ugly because I was self-medicated. I was pissed. I was pissed. Like literally that one event through my life for a tailspin. But I mean, the event didn't do that. I was I was the one who was enraged. And so even more, this anger started playing itself out. And that's why I look at those years with like, I don't believe it could have happened any other way.

You know what I mean? I really, I really believe that that was necessary. I really believe that that was necessary, you know, for me to see the error of my way, you know, the error of my way. So, like, all the preaching and all the leading worship, you know, and all the discipling, I mean, you can do that stuff and completely be just disconnected from Jesus, you know? Um, and, or you could be connected to Jesus and get to do that stuff or not have to do that stuff, you know? And so that's, you know, that's the journey I'm on now. And, um, 2011, I got arrested, um, in Orange County, California, and I spent a year in jail, um, on a drug trafficking and possession charge. Um, and it was in there that I had repented and, you know, gave my life to the Lord again. And, you know, that was nine years after nine years of rebellion, man, you know. And so like when I when I think of the prodigal son story, man, that's my story, man, because I was home and everything was cool. But for some reason, I wanted to rule, you know. I know i mean i know the reason it's because of my sinfulness you know that's the thing about sin

is it's so subtle and it gets you to think and believe things that um are are not glorifying to god but not good for you either, you know? Did you feel guilt during those nine years? I mean, here you have, you know, Bible college degree, almost done a seminary, all this ministry experience. Like, did you just compartmentalize all that? Or did you renounce it? Or did you deep down feel kind of guilty? Like, I know this is wrong. Yeah.

How did you process your faith during those nine years? That's a good question. I've actually, so this is for our audience. I mean, because we, I remember, so I left seminary right when you started, I think it was right, you had that blowout. I remember that. And then your car accident. I think I was just on my way to Scotland. So I was over there for three years and in Ohio for two years. best friend i mean like vince is like dude i i think he's the only person that you would return like one out of every 10 calls or something and so i'm like dude what what happened you know and then it was when i was back in california when people like hey i think bert's back you know which was um so i don't even that whole like i know hardly anything about those nine years, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think it was one of those situations where like, um, the prophet I was running from me, I was, I was running from Jezebel,

you know, like I was ashamed. I was scared. I was like, a lot of it was shame. because of the first several contacts you know when when people first started hearing what was going on with me I was bombarded with phone calls that were and letters and letters from brothers that I love to this day and I've been reconciled with, confronting me of every sin from getting a girl pregnant to, you know, like, because it was unknown at the seminary as to why I left the ministry and dropped out of seminary, you know, and I get that. So left unknown, people started accusing me of things that they were suspecting but a lot of it was completely untrue and so i began i began to hate that culture i began to really hate

the conservative fundamentalist you know um you know suit and tie wearing, big Bible carrying. I began to hate that culture. And so I never renounced my faith in Jesus in any, like, and, you know, that's not any kind of merit that I want to pat my back over, you know, because I do believe that most people would say, yeah, but you renounce them by your actions, you know. I get that part, and I own that part. But with my heart and my mouth, I never said Jesus is a fraud, you know. I never said the Bible is unreal. In fact, one of the things I got into during those years was I began to song write and produce in a music studio with a team of guys that were just trying to start a record label locally.

You know, music is one of my loves. And I always had a Bible in the studio, you know. But the funny thing is, I never read it. Like, I never read it while I was at it. But artists would come and say, hey, you like reading the Bible? And I would go, yeah. I mean, I've studied Hey, you like reading the Bible? And I would go, yeah, I mean, I've, I've studied it, you know, and then, then I would sit there and have 30, 40 minute powwows, you know,

about Christianity and our faith. Um, but as to connecting to the corporate, um, church, the corporate, um, church, I, at the time had no interest, you know? Um, and everywhere I went, every time I went to a church service, if there's even an inkling of something that was off, according to me, I'd get up and walk out, you know? So it's completely disconnected from the spirit. I believe I was grieving him tremendously. And so that just sort of became a pattern for me for nine years. But I remember the first time someone asked me a question about the Bible, you know what I mean, at a dry erase board in the studio and and he was just talking about how he couldn't believe that Jesus was God incarnate and came down, you know. I just knew like, oh, let's go to Philippians 2. So I grabbed a dry erase.

I grabbed a dry erase marker and I just drew this diagram, you know, and and these cats, man, these are gangster rappers sitting in the studio. And they're literally going, dang, bro, like, that's that's that's cool, man. Like, I never even understood that stuff like that, you know. And like most Samoans, just like me. Yeah. They grew up in the church, you know. like me yeah they they grew up in the church you know um so like there was a there was a love for what i did know but there was no disdain for it i or nor was there a guilty feeling i just felt like really i felt like what most of those brothers are telling you that that part of my life was dead

you know that it was never going to be resurrected, that I still believe in Jesus, but I hate his bride, which is, you know, today, these days, I go, Jesus, you know, if Jesus was a good man, like most, you know, like, like, if you can be a good man, right, I'm not, I'm not talking about standing before God, but most good men would go look at you and think you're crazy, man. I like hanging out with you, but I hate your wife, you know? Like if I said that to you, Preston, you'd be like, man, get off the call, man. Get out of here. You know what I mean?

Like the one you adore and cherish the most is being criticized you know like it was just I was disconnected man and and and all of those pieces that Augustine talks about you know the the shattered shard can only come back together in you you know um and so that's kind of the way I existed for a little while. So 2011 in jail, you have kind of another, and I don't want to, I'm just not really interested in theologizing it, you know, but like you had a kind of a really renewed perspective on Christianity and specifically, I think, and I don't want to put, I'm kind of trying to set you up here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I mean, and I don't want to put, I'm kind of trying to set you up here, but I'd

love to hear your thoughts. I mean, a renewed perspective on the relationship between your faith and your gifts, in a sense. I remember hearing from you shortly after that we connected, and you were like, man, I don't need to ever step on stage again. I'll clean toilets. I'll do whatever. I just want to serve the Lord. And I've never, you know, that was really new for me to hear that, you know? Um, and it really seemed to be like, man, I, this seems legit. Cause there were some questions from people like, well, can't trust Bert, you know, is he back or whatever? And it's like, well, is he really, you know? And, and, um, when I heard that, I was like, man, I think, I think Bert's back cause that, that, that would just seem like such a different kind of humility.

Because in the past, you can kind of have a humble persona like we all can. Like we could all, especially if you've been in a church for a while, you can put on a pretty good humble show. There was something different about your perspective after 2011. It was like, man, this is real. Yeah. Yeah, man. I think part of it was applying truth to life. Here's the funny thing.

I feel like I got a seminary education scrubbing toilets. Because, bro, when they tell you during the summer, OK, it's deep cleaning time and they hand you these steel brushes and you have to scrub the watermarks off of the bottom end of the toilet rim. You know, was this a jail or in church? Because you got hired. Oh, OK. Yeah. So you literally got hired on church. Oh, okay. Yeah. So you literally got hired on as the janitor? As the janitor, yeah.

Because I had two felonies and I couldn't find work. And I learned when I was – so like one of the things I learned when I was in jail is most of these men repeat offend because they can't find work with a felony on their jacket, you know? And so, like, while I was in there, I was only reconnecting with the Lord, but, like, gathering just my own education about, you know, the situation people are in, you know? And I'm learning things like, you know, people's – I learned later that these are all true, but people's growth is stunted by heavy drug use at the age that they started using heavily. So that's the reason why I never became a thief or chased after other men's women because I was already a grown-up when I started using meth. I was already a grown up when I started using meth. You know, most people who started using meth around their teen years, they might be 50 or 60 years old, but they're stuck in that.

They're stuck in that adolescent frame of mind, you know, but most of them couldn't find work, you know, and I'm learning these stories while I'm in there. So one of the things I told Brent Elders, my current senior pastor, is, hey, when I get out, I really need a job. So four days after I got out, I was working at church as a janitor. And so that was right around the time we reconnected. reconnected and and so um just you know having a spring clean i think you're sitting there and going like man this is this is like me making an effort to clean my own act up you know like this toilet bowl is never going to look like it was when it was brand new you know what i mean yeah and and so i started i started applying theology to my job, like cleaning and mopping and doing all this stuff. And then I'm learning on another level that I need Jesus so much, you know, and that I was in a church where no one knew me. No one knew about my gifts, you know, except Brent and a couple of pastors on staff. no one knew about my gifts you know except Brent and a couple of pastors on staff um and so I was I was I was content I was content in that posture for for you know for those two years that I was janitor um primarily because um I was connected to the Lord you know I was connected to the Lord. You know, I was, you know, even in the drug scene, man, I was the life of the party.

You know what I mean? So the Lord just put me in jail. He isolated me, although I was still around 140 other men. Every night, you know, in your own bunk, it's like you're alone. You know what I mean? These aren't my friends you know i mean i can make friends but the reality is they're not really my friends um and so a lot of lonely nights in there just thinking and praying and reading and processing through stuff a lot of lonely hours working as a janitor when I got out. And, um, my, my perspective had changed and, um, and it really hasn't changed from that.

Although I still, I still struggle. I mean, when I got married and my wife had to call me out a lot of times about, you know, um, you know, like a frown because I'm not on the preaching schedule, you know what I mean? Like, um, uh, you know, so, so now that I have my wife, my helper, I'm like, I, I, someone, someone can call me out on my stuff, you know? I'm sure the little I know Lee, she seems like somebody who's willing to call you out in your stuff. Yeah. And, and so I, you know, I began to just, man, like how,

how is it possible that we read this stuff you know who he wants to lead must be the servant of all he wants to be the master must be the servant of all how do we read that stuff and just gloss over it and then like all of a sudden the we consider the leaders in church the ones that are up there making power moves you know one of my favorite books in the last two years was the way of the dragon the way of the lamb with lamb dragon yeah and and started really looking at like the power trip that evangelicalism is on you know and I mean I'm not I'm not trying to educate anyone. I'm just saying, like in my own in my own mind, in my own heart, I see all of that stuff

and I go, oh, Jesus, I need you so much because. I don't I don't want to use human means as a way to measure our success as a ministry, you know, and that's hard as the guy who oversees missions and evangelism and outreach, you know, because everyone wants to hear numbers. Yeah. You know, I'm like, but, you know, I'm thankful for a board of elders that are like, we don't need you to focus on numbers. We just want you to train people to love the lost, to share the gospel, you know,

and to prepare people for the mission field. And so I'm thankful for that good group of guys, man, who read our church. We got to wrap things up here in just another minute. Final words to a Christian leader who may again be kind of feeling what, what you're saying, you know, maybe they're wrapped up in the, the church industrial complex as one of my friends puts it, you know, just that, just that, that, that, that endless grunt of the ministry routine, then you throw in some success and that can be sometimes the worst thing for somebody who, whose heart might be disconnected from Jesus. What do you want to say to that person right now? Oh man, I would, I would say to make, um, and I, I don't want to be misunderstood, you know? So

like when I say make, I don't, I don't want it to sound like you're going to do something, you know. But I'm saying prioritize abiding, prioritize abiding in Christ. And the thing is, you know, that word priority is an interesting word, right? It's, it should be, what's the only, what's the only thing that matters, but Americans have made it into a list of things, right? You know, someone, someone shared that in the pulpit and I went, oh man, cause it's true. Like the word priority means the number one thing. It's not a list.

It shouldn't be a list. But we Americans have created it. Oh, this is my list of priorities. It's like the first thing you do among many others rather than the only or primary or ultimate thing. Priority means the only thing. ultimate thing. I already mean the only thing, you know, uh, you know, that, um, anyways, I think the only thing that matters, Jesus says it, he says it to Martha. The only thing that matters is what Mary chose. And that's to sit at my feet and listen, you know? Um, to sit at my feet and listen, you know? Um, and, and I think from there flow everything else, um, ministry opportunities, fruit service, because again, how, how can we say,

um, love your neighbor and just walk by people that that's one of the things is like i even i even wonder how can people say we lift your hands while they're singing and not lift their hands yeah so so you as a human being what we've done is we've created these contexts where we actually say things that we don't do. Yeah, yeah. You know, we say, Jesus says, take care for the poor. We believe in what Jesus teaches us. But we drive right by the person that's, you know, sitting on the sidewalk right outside our driveway at church.

You know. Oh, I know you got to run and I got to run but man I have so many thoughts I wanted to keep going but man I just thank you for sharing your story man I just love hearing your honesty and it's just I mean you're

I love the fact that you're willing to be vulnerable you know I mean you're sharing a lot of stuff that not easy for people to share you know and just to be able to admit where you've gone wrong and and learn from that and i love how you talk you i love hearing about you talk about your two years as a janitor it's kind of the some of the sweetest times in your christian journey you know totally just totally inverted the whole thing because i mean a lot of people it's like now my sweetest times are on stage or the success of our

church was booming but at the end of the day man man, that can be good. That can be great, but it can also eat your soul from the inside out, you know? So yeah. Thank you for your faithfulness, bro. It was great catching up. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for inviting me to be raw. Take care, man. All right, bro. you