Theology in the Raw - 866: Addressing Suicide, Anxiety, Depression, and Abuse: Dr. Brooke Keels

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Dr. Brooke Keels has Ph.D. in Psychological and over 10 years of counseling experience. She serves as the Executive Director of Counseling Services for Mercy Multiplied, nonprofit Christian organization that equips people to live free and stay free through Jesus Christ.  In this episode, we talk about the rise in suicidality, anxiety, and depression especially among teens. We also discuss the widespread problem of sexual abuse and how people can find healing from trauma. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today my good friend, Brooke Keels. Brooke has a PhD in psychology and serves as the Executive Director of Counseling Services for Mercy Multiplied. And we will explain, we talked quite a bit about what Mercy Multiplied is. And Brooke is just super wise at combining her background in psychology. She served over 10 years as a counselor and has worked with a lot of people who deal with addictions and trauma and other mental health issues. So she is really an expert on issues of mental health. And she's also very gospel-centered. And I love how she combines the gospel with robust psychology and a real, just as you'll see, kind of just an honest evaluation of how we should think through

things like mental health and medication and abuse and all these things. So I'm super excited to have her on the show. I've really gotten to know her over the last year and I've learned so much from her. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw or just check out the show notes for the info. Support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content and become a member of the prestigious, the highly acclaimed theology in the raw community. Actually, it's a bunch of, yeah, a bunch of ragtag Christians who just kind of want to mix it up and they support the show and they join the Patreon Theology in the Raw community.

And if you want to be part of that community, then go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. Okay, without further ado, let's get to know the one and only Dr. Brooke Keels. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology on the Raw. I'm here with my friend, Brooke Keels. Brooke, thanks so much for being on the podcast for the first time. Yeah, I'm so glad to be here. So we just got done speaking at the Q Ideas Cultural Summit. No relation to QAnon, for those of you who need that disclaimer. Well, we're recording this just a few days after we spoke at it in late April. This might be released. Oh, this will be released sometime in May, I think, according to my schedule. Anyway, you gave a – well, how about – no, sorry.

We're jumping too far in. Can you just give us a little background of who you are and how you got – and what you do and how you got into this field? Sure, yeah. Yeah, so I'm obviously Brooke Keels, as you said. I'm originally from Louisiana. I grew up. My dad was, as he liked to say, a bivocational pastor. So he was a preacher and a psychologist. And my mom's a social worker and I'm the only child. And so obviously I went into therapy because I needed it. So, yeah, so I ended up, I have my master's in counseling and a PhD in family therapy, and I'm a licensed counselor in actually several states now. And so I ended up, you know, was in academia teaching over kind of accreditation, like that

sort of thing. End ended up moving into program design for addiction treatment and, um, was a clinical director for an adolescent addiction treatment center for adolescent males. We then moved into young adult males. And then I received a call from Mercy Multiplied who had actually been connected with, um, for years because their original home is from my hometown in Monroe, Louisiana. And my mom had volunteered there as long as I can remember. And so just received a call. They were wanting to really shift in a direction of, you know, what they'd seen and just the level of trauma that had increased. And that really needed to make sure that clinically we're meeting the needs of the residents. And what's really unique about Mercy is that it's

fully donor funded. So each young woman gets to come free of charge. And it's a six to nine month residential counseling. And then we've expanded into outpatient. So we now have an outpatient model. The Louisiana home is now outpatient. And then we also do outreach. So we have, one of my favorite things to do is actually train and equip pastors and lay people and anybody who's helping anybody just how to be healthy in order to actually help others out of the overflow and understand their their place in the church. And that, you know, helping people that are hurting is not just for professionals that the church has a place, but also that we can all work together in that spot. So what we do in Mercy is what I like to say is like the highest level clinical with the deepest spiritual. And so, you know, and we just combine those things, I think, beautifully and not just because that's part

of my job is to make sure we do that, but I really think we do a great, a great job and been around for 38 years now. So our founder and president is still around and just fantastic. And we have an incredible CEO and just all of our staff, honestly. It's a lot of women and we make it work and that's pretty great. So again, it's a, it's a res, I mean, people can go check in for four to six months and it's 100% funded. It doesn't cost them anything. Yeah. But it's also voluntary.

So each, each, you know, young woman has to choose to be here. So it's from age, age 13 to 32. So even our 13 year olds have to decide because, um,

our founder was just really passionate that we were not going to force anybody to do this. And so we are very upfront that we are, yes, clinical will do counseling, but it is all Jesus all the time. So you got to really make sure you want to do that. So a parent can't like drop off their troubled teen against their will. This has to be the teen saying, I know I need help. What kind of person goes to Mercy? What are they wrestling with?

Yeah. I mean, we truly have, I mean, that's another one of the unique things is, you know, we just say life controlling issues. So we have everything from depression, anxiety, um, attachment issues, maybe growing up in, you know, kind of, um, chaotic family systems and, and kind of not knowing your place all the way. We have eating disorders, those that struggle with addiction, those that have been trafficked either by family or even internationally. And we've, you know, those that have just struggled

with, you know, kind of being told like, you know, well, you're bipolar and you'll always be that way. Or, you know, we typically are the place after the place is what I say. We tend to be kind of, people don't leave to go get that way. Or, you know, we typically are the place after the place is what I say. We tend to be kind of people don't leave to go get healing anymore. I think that used to be a thing. And then now, you know, the tendency is to obviously want to stay home. And so typically we're the place after someone's been either hospitalized or gone to multiple treatment centers and they're just realizing I've tried everything else. And as we do, we go, well,

let's try Jesus typically last, typically last, um, in, in some ways. Um, but also the length of stay I think can kind of, um, you know, make people not, you know, it's hard to leave home. Um, so we're typically kind of that place. And so when people call us and they are like, yeah, I want to come, it's not like I want to leave. I want to be away and I can't wait to do this. But it's I realize this is something I need and I'm going to choose to do it. So it's very much a choice. Every day is a choice to be there, which is why our success rate honestly is so high because you're kind of weeding out anyone who doesn't really want to be there. What is your success rate and how do you measure success?

What does that mean? So we actually have an independent company do a study every five years, um, of all of our graduates from the year of our Lord, 1983 until, until now. Um, and so they do, you know, um, and we have really great results on that and forgive me, I can't, I mean, it's far past being, you know, clinically relevant, but, and so we measure success that way in the sense of like, did you, were you able to find freedom? Were you, you know, because the goal is that someone leaves and they have an idea of how to be healthy, how to build a healthy system around them. Did we equip you with a church and accountability partner? You know, do you have your own relationship with the Lord? So, so they're not codependent on us, right? They're not hearing the voice of God, if you will, through us, they're

hearing it on their own. And so just having them equipped with the tools to be successful and healthy in life. Um, and I think it was that last time I looked, cause we did it two years ago, it was like 95%, you know? 95%. Is that longitudinal? Is that like five years after, ten years after, they're still not falling back into addictions? Or is that how far out do you measure? Yeah, no. I mean, I think they, again, because it depends on when people graduated. And look, now I'm going to have to go pull the study.

Sorry. I don't like to give gotcha questions. I'm just fascinated. No, no, no. It is. Yeah. And well, look, you know, I could talk data all day, but I think that, um, yes. And we even measured things like how was your family impacted?

And that was really incredible too, because a lot of young women talked about how members of their family came to know Christ and became healthy through their journey there. And so like that, it's actually, and that's why they actually changed the name to Mercy Multiplied, like the impact, you know, mercy being multiplied throughout. Um, and so, uh, yeah, but it is longitudinal. So I think they do, it's like the first year out and we do our own studies anyway. Like we do our own data for up through the first year, um, after graduation, but they have access to our transitional care department for the, until the rest of time. Um, and so, yeah, so we'll do that measure that far out, but it's not just that somebody doesn't fall back into addiction because you know, that can happen, right? It's not that you don't go through a hard season. It's that you know what to do in those hard seasons. Do you know what to do when things

get hard? So it's not, you know, we have a lot of people that never fall back into it, but you have some that do, and then they go, but I knew what to do. And I think if you think about a lot of people that if they've grown up unhealthy, they don't have anything to compare it to, right? So then you come and you meet a bunch of healthy people and you get healthy, and then you go back out in the world and you go, oh, wait, this isn't healthy. Doesn't mean you don't participate in it again, necessarily. You know, it doesn't mean you don't struggle, but then all of a sudden you go, oh, wait, that's not what I want. I want this other thing here. I want to be healthy. And now I know how to do that. Um, and so really from an equipping standpoint. So, so it's not that people don't struggle when they leave. We didn't, you know,

magically, you know, fix hard things, but that they are, are equipped and know what to do and then actually use what we have taught them however many years out. So I want to talk about, I mean, so many things I want to talk about, but I ultimately want to talk about how the church can maybe do a better job in its discipleship process, addressing the very high numbers of people wrestling with mental health issues. Maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's an addiction, maybe it's anxiety, depression, suicidality, maybe it's a result of abuse. I mean, there's, if you add up all of the very kind of traumatic things people have been through and the mental health issues that are a result, it's a high

number, right? I mean, um, why don't we just start with the numbers then? Do you have off the top of your head, like the percentage of people inside the church, outside the church is probably going to be roughly the same, that are wrestling with really deep depression, anxiety, that are wrestling with suicidality, that maybe have experienced abuse, maybe as a child, maybe as a, maybe as a young adult or adult, and they just haven't really dealt with that. Like, give us some data. You said you love data. Give us some data. I do love data. I know, I should have. I don't know why I have, I have so many books behind me, but I will just do the ones that I know off the top of my head because there's nothing I hate more.

I think you and I actually talked about this than someone misquoting data and we're like, well, that is incorrect. And I'm fine if somebody says, Hey, I can't recall the percentage, but it's somewhere in the ballpark of this. So I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a ballpark now, as far as, um, you know, one of the things we know is like, um, sexual abuse has increased. I think it's like 300% in the last 20 years. I think one in three females and one in four males is going to be either molested or put in an inappropriate sexual situation. And then you have all of the trauma scales. I mean, it's not that far off. What we are looking at of levels of either traumatic events or the compounding of traumatic

events, you know, and I think you've heard of this, like the ACEs study, you know, they started now measuring if you've had X number of traumatic events, this is how many years are going to be taken off of your life. So we're not quantifying people's trauma and how it's going to, you know, trauma and how it's going to, you know, long-term affect their life. And so, and I think right now, which I know I just did this, you know, this talk on suicide and right now they said they just did a study post COVID and well, it's not post COVID. I don't know when we're breaking up with COVID. I'd really like to do that very soon. I don't know when this happens, but. I'm in Idaho. COVID ended, I think back in January. So yeah. Did it? Yeah, it's gone. That's amazing. People are like, we're done. We're good. Yeah.

I don't know. I, you know, I have so many thoughts on that, but I'm not going to get into it. However, um, the, uh, yeah, so it's what nine and a half million people reporting walking around with suicidal ideation, either active or passive. So active meaning I have a plan and I want to kill myself, or passive meaning I've had thoughts of ending my life. I don't necessarily have a plan, but I don't really want to be here anymore. So I think that's a lot of people. Say that again, how many millions? 9.5 million in the U.S.

9.5 million. Oh, my gosh. And I know half of all gun deaths are suicide. I think there's roughly 30,000 a year. Again, that might be going up. And I think 15,000 as a result of a gun death. Are those numbers increasing? And why do you think that is like a suicide on the rise? Um, and maybe some of that is COVID related or is it, I just keep hearing that it's, well, maybe among teenagers in particular, that suicidality seems to be going up.

Um, yeah, I mean, it has yes and no. I mean, I think we have to be careful because we don't want to manipulate. Right. So like, you know, there's this whole thing about like all these people are lonely, you know, and it's this epidemic. We'll know there are a lot of people lonely, but I don't know that it's an epidemic, if you will. Doesn't mean it's OK. Like we should still pay attention to it. I haven't any everything I looked at. I did not see that there was an increase in actual completion of suicide with COVID. However, there was an increase in ideation, right? In the thoughts of, I don't want to be here anymore, that sort of thing, which obviously can lead to that. Once you start considering it as an option, you know, then it's an option. And so, but yes, I mean, it has increased. I think, you know, one of the stats

I shared in the talk was it is now the second leading cause of death for children ages 10, right through, it's actually through 35. I said 24, because my point was kind of the younger, you know, group. But yeah, I mean, so there was a time when it was just kind of 18 to 24. And it was very rare that would happen to anyone under the age of 18. But now it's the second leading cause of death for 10 to 18. So why is that? And that's probably a very complicated question. I've heard social media is playing a role.

Really? Would you say absolutely? Yeah, I think – and again, like I mean if we really tie this back to the root. I remember this. So one of the things – I mentioned my dad was a psychologist and specifically worked in a school system and they would do threat assessments. And any time a kid would commit suicide, they worked really hard to keep it out of the media because what they saw is then we would have other kids do the same thing. So this idea that once it becomes an option, it's now an option, right? And so we're talking about once it, you know, you have the access. So just assuming, you know, parents, I don't know that we as parents are paying attention as a whole to what our kids are doing anymore. I mean, you now have access to, you can find a community to connect with about anything, no matter how bad, awful or weird, you know, that it is, there is a community. And so if you now have, I'm sad, I don't feel cared for, I don't feel seen. And, you know, all of a sudden somebody goes, well, I know such and such, and they killed themselves. And the idea of not being here anymore with a very underdeveloped frontal lobe sounds like a good idea. You know, I mean, and then you start taking that path down and that's right.

That's what we look for. And we already know whatever our thoughts are. Our phone shows us anyway. I've decided, you know, so I had a thought about Ray-Ban sunglasses the other day and all of a sudden there was like an advertisement for them. I've got lots of questions, but so I think, you know, just, just the idea of us constantly seeking community through social media, which is actually not connecting. Um, absolutely. I think it increases, it increases possibilities, right? If you will, good or bad. Um, but, but once you're not in a good place and you find a community of people who are like yeah just do it you know and so yeah i had to do yeah a bit of research on uh suicide ideation and attempts and completions related to the trans conversation because that's a um that's become a a complex aspect of the trans conversation.

For one, according to most studies, the percentage of suicide, again, are we talking ideation attempts or completion? Those are kind of, would you say, I mean, overlapping, but kind of different. Very different. They're very different, yeah. And then teen versus adult,

the percentage that you often hear in the trans conversation is 41%. But we had to ask the question, 41% do what? Is it ideation attempt? Is it completion? It's actually adults who attempt suicide, according to one study. What people don't realize is the very same organization that came up with the 41% two years later ran the same study and it came up with 26%, low 20%. And there's been other studies done that are all over the map on percentages. The one thing most studies don't do is control for mental health issues. So there were several studies done on both trans attempted suicide and non-trans attempted suicide, but they studied people with mental health issues that either were or weren't being addressed, I forget. And the percentages were actually the same across the board, which raised the question, is the a trans experience or identity is a gender dysphoria

or is it other mental health issues that may be causing or result of that that is the issue all that to say it's very complex um obviously the numbers are very high the biggest question for me is how do we address it um what's the root problem um i don't think it can be all blamed on what people call the minority stress is this i don't know if that's a familiar psychological term where if you have like you're like society like you have some minority experience and society is sort of oppressing you it directly or indirectly and that's what's leading to is if society wasn't so transphobic then oh yeah you know and it's's like that could play some role. multiple mental health issues. And that's the most startling thing I shared in my talk was that

only 26% of clinicians that these kids were being brought to even raised questions about other mental health issues that they were wrestling with. They're like, oh, we don't need to worry about that. Or they're not allowed to. Or they're not allowed. Because if you even raise a question like, Oh, you haven't dealt with this past trauma that might be linked to the dysphoria, then you're accused of being kind of advocating for reparative therapy, which is just not scientifically accurate at all. But, um,

where am I going with? So, so, yeah. Um, we were talking about kind of this, if the system can oppress and if that, you know, and I think I think it goes. I mean, here's the thing that I just think we're more resilient than the idea that everyone in the world must be for me or I can't make it.

The reality is, is your personal community there. Right. We have to be connected. And when you talk about the church, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, one of the things that really impacted me was Rosario Butterfield's book talking about what community is, right? So when we put, and they were talking about this at Q2, when you put all these people in margins or you put people in, and then you make them all have this shared community experience, right? Which is, which is very strong and impactful in bonding, you know, and you hear like trauma bonding. So we've all gone through a trauma together or we're all going, right. And so it's a very connected thing. And so if we are not healthy and not

connecting people to a healthy church and a healthy group of people. And our shared experience should obviously be through Christ, right? We should all be sharing like these shared experiences versus like what I typically see us do of kind of tearing each other apart. You know, like it's, it's, it's become that, you know, we would rather kind of gossip about each other and feel connected than actually be connected. And, and, you know, we would rather kind of gossip about each other and feel connected than actually be connected. And, and, you know, and, and so, um, and I was talking to, you know, Tyler Burns at the, and he, you know, was talking about, he's like, you know, the black community, the black church community doesn't do this. Now we may have something to say behind the scenes,

but they're not typically ripping each other apart from the stage, right? And so looking at that of how do we become healthy without having to be persecuted? I'm like, surely there's a way that we can figure out how, as the church, we can be healthy, understand our scope, be proud of what that is, own that, and then pour that out to others without having to be, you know, forced into it. Right. If that makes sense. Yeah, totally. That's an interesting, that it's easier for those who have a majority experience to kind of tear each other apart and have this kind of fictitious bond or no bond at all.

Whereas if you have some kind of minority experience, especially with some history of oppression, like the black community, um, that, that you're not going to as easily tear each other apart from the stage because you have this common bond. But as Christians, if we would lay aside our political allegiances for just one second and see us as live in an exile where that we have this minority experience as a Christian that transcends, you know, ethnicity, socioeconomic and all this stuff. Right. Yeah. Imagine if we held that at the center. um yeah is it so i i've heard so there there has been a higher rates of anxiety depression and suicide ideation and attempts so that in the last 10 years is there kind of a a market increase and

again that's something that we can confidently say social media is playing some role in that yeah it's actually been since 1999. So since 1999, so that they did the last study, I think it was CDC that did was that 1999 to 2018. And so they had a 35% increase in suicide completions. And so, you know, this isn't just, okay. Wow. Yeah. So if we're increasing in completions, how much, you know, how many more people are walking around thinking about it? Right. Yeah. Or, or again, just this idea of like, and I ask people when they're like, you know, I'm having suicidal thoughts.

Do you want to kill yourself or do you just not want to be here anymore? Do you not want to deal with this thing anymore? And I mean, we can get into the concept of like resilience or whatever that is. thing anymore. And I mean, we can get into the concept of like resilience or whatever that is. But you also see, you know, when someone's like, I don't want to be here anymore. And someone sits with them and is like, okay, well, what does that mean? And how do we teach somebody, you know what, this is how we can think about this differently. This is how we can be with you while you process, you know, this, these hard things, because it's not about undermining. People are walking through hard things, OK, to act as if COVID was not difficult would be crazy. You know, we at Mercy alone, our staff, eight people lost a son, spouse, fathers, you know, like that impacts all of us here, you know, and we should share in that sorrow in some way.

But we obviously have to learn, too, that it doesn't destroy me if someone else is sad or someone else's experience, you know. And so I just, you know, I think there's just a piece of that that we've really been missing. Number one, it's an option. And so you do have people, there's going to be severe mental health issues that exist and people are just going to do something kind of when they're out of their mind and it's going to happen, you know. But the idea of just walking around thinking about not being here anymore and that becomes a way of life. Like we say this at Mercy, like you can't, you know, you can't come here and just walk around thinking about, I don't want to be here anymore. What are you going to do? You chose to come.

What are we engaging in? Right. What is the Lord talking to you about that? And we can get into His sovereignty and His goodness, and we can get into all that. But at the end of the day, what is your choice? Do you want to deal with this or not? And some people are comforted by the option of not having to live anymore. What are some of the things that are causing that increase, in your opinion, or is there consensus on this? Like, is it, is there something in our cultural moment, this society or like what, why, why the increase? Cause it can't just be so, well, I don't think it can be just like, well now we're on our smartphones all the time and that just opens up all kinds of different things. Or, I mean, is there something else going on or?

Yeah. I mean, and I don't think, you know, they haven't been able to, I mean, it's obviously an issue. Like we've, you know, they've connected like, you know, anhedonia and, and screen time. And like, obviously it affects the brain and we know all of that stuff, but that isn't making someone want to commit suicide. You know, I mean, but I, I do. And of course this is, this is me as a systems therapist. I believe what it has done, the disconnect of community is a major, major factor. And I don't know how, and there's, of course, a lot of others, but you have a disconnect of community.

You have an increase of trauma experience. You have a place where, I mean, even like the young woman, you know, on your talk that, I mean, again, she's just my hero. I mean, she's just so fantastic. You know, what did she do? She found a community, right? But if you talk to her, there were all these preceding things about not being connected at home, you know, not feeling seen, not feeling heard. And, you know, that we are made to find community. We are made to be in community and we will create it however we need to create it. And that's what I believe. And so when it's unhealthy and it seems to be easier to find unhealthy, you know, online or if you don't know how to find healthy, you know, plus add, you know, trauma or abuse or anything else. And, you know, or, or feelings of, you know, depression. I mean, you can get into that too. You know, my son said the other day, he's like, I think I'm depressed. I was like, oh no, that's

not a word we get to use in our house. Really? Yeah. He's 10 years old. So no, you don't, you're not, you're really not nothing in your life is doing that, you know, but, but then we could also disqualify, well, there's now something wrong with me. Right. Because we made everything medical. And, you know, to a lesser extreme, there are people I've had that, you know, and they come and talk to me about like their depression or anxiety. And I'm like, OK, well, what do we want to do about it? Well, there's nothing to do. My mom had it. My dad had it. This, you know, just is what it is. Right. Or, you know, you've seen that with addiction. Well, it's genetic, you know, and so there can kind of be this. I think the medical piece of that, too, where we created the DSM to be able to communicate with each other somehow became this naming of people.

This is what you are and this is what you will experience. And there's nothing out of that, And so it's interesting to me how many people get offended when we say someone came in struggling with borderline personality disorder or bipolar tendency or diagnosed bipolar and they walk out and would not meet that criteria at all. So I've wondered this. And because this is in my area, I hesitate even saying or thinking it it but it does seem like from an outsider's perspective like almost like an over diagnosis like a kid that and again maybe this could if you're listening i'm not don't this is not my prescription just my anecdotal opinion like it seems like every other kid who has a little bit of a high energy level is like, well, you must be ADHD or something. Or like you're, you, we have to have a name for this.

Like, is that, is that, is that true that I'm a little, it just seems like there's a, maybe too much of that. And maybe that's not helpful. Like, are they actually, do they, do they need this kind of name, this label, which almost becomes like an identity, which feeds back in almost can create this feedback loop of, well, I'm ADHD or whatever. And I don't, I do not want to, I'm not saying anything negative about people who are diagnosed with ADHD. I'm sure it's a serious thing, but, um, is there an over, is there a problem of over diagnosis in, in your opinion?

Oh, heck yeah. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah. And I mean, you have to think of it like this too, right? So this, I mean, again, I could really go deep dive conspiracy theory into, uh, healthcare. But if you think about it, if, if, if, if a psychiatrist does not diagnose you, they do not get paid for the session. If, I mean, you know, if, if a psychologist doesn't, you know, evaluate you and have, you know, a result, then, then what are we doing? Like it's, it, it, it, the system is not set up to, to diagnose in a way that will not create continued visits or, you know, so even with like, you know, um, one of my favorites and what I typically do if I ever, I don't, I do cash pay now, so I don't have to fool with this, is like, you know,

an adjustment disorder, right? If you are sad because someone passed away, that is an appropriate reaction to a stressor, okay? If you go see a psychiatrist, typically you are going to be depressed. They're going to diagnose you that, even if this event, right, makes sense. Why would be? Because they have to get paid for that code and your time. And so, you know, but you also have people if you think about worldview and this is, of course, not all psychiatrists. My favorite one of all time, Kurt Thompson, is not doing this. So let's just be clear.

You know, but typically that is how it's set up, right? The medical model is to look at, you know, as my mentor used to say, the crossing of cells, you know, across semipermeable membranes, right? Their system is just the body. So you're looking for something to be wrong and how can I fix it? You know, there's got to be something inside of you that isn't working. If you're coming to me and saying, I have a problem, I'm sad all the time, I'm this and that, they're like, okay, it's this, right? That is their worldview. And I think when you talk about the church, we just have, I know I'm jumping over here, but this incredible opportunity to have a different worldview that it's okay if some people

need medication and it's okay if some people need medication and it's okay if some people are struggling with those things. But if we're meeting this underlying need, so, you know, you've got a single mom and she's got two boys that are, you know, losing their mind all the time, you know, maybe they don't have ADHD. Maybe mom needs some support. You know, maybe we're like meeting other social needs that can help, you know, prevent this from a different standpoint. We don't have to war against the psychiatrist. Right. But we can support people in a different way that only the church is uniquely qualified to do, in my opinion. And, you know, and help someone say like, hey, it's OK, because guess what?

When you're tired and your kid is, you know, has a lot of energy and they're having a tough time at school because mom and dad just got divorced and all of that, they're going to most likely diagnose, even you're like, I don't know what to do. They're going to diagnose that kid ADHD and they're going to give them medication. And guess what? The medication works, but the long-term effects of it are a problem, right? And so, oh yeah. I mean, you're talking about giving, you know, children stimulants, even if you, I mean, everybody's, you know, favorite Adderall, right? It affects the pleasure center of the brain. We're talking about amphetamines. They work. Meth works, guys. It does, you know, but we're talking about brain development. Now

we're seeing too that, you know, the high rates of these kids struggling with addiction and alcoholism and all that afterwards. And of course with the studies would go, well, they had ADHD first. So ADHD is the, ADHD is the precursor to addiction versus, but you had them on an addictive medication. Like at this young of an age, do we not see the correlation of how that would potentially affect brain development? We're also seeing kind of arrested development. I can almost point out to the year when someone was diagnosed with ADHD and then placed on medication. Very often I'll go, so did you start to be medicated around 12, 13? I'm almost never wrong. And I don't say that arrogantly, but there is a pause in brain development at that stage, right? You're not you don't feel things the same way.

So you don't heal from an emotional situation or you don't learn actual skills to process and figure things out. You just kind of are fixed, if that makes sense. So it gets fun and complicated. But everybody, and I want to say that too, though, like you said, like everybody's doing the best they can with what they have. Like it makes sense. You know, I don't think parents are running around like put my kids on meds. You're just like, I don't know what to do. And someone says, I know what to do. And then, you know, and you go, okay, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll take all the help I can get, you know? And we live in a culture and we're all a product of it. We're

all influenced by it. That is very immediate. That is very in the moment. That is very kind of, um, uh, quick fix might be a little, well, no, I think that's pretty accurate, right? Like we want, you know, yeah, we want to be better now. And like, well, this might have long-term side effects that we're not sure about when you're 50 years old. It's like, what do I care about that? You know, like, I want to feel good now. So, yeah, I mean, we live in such a quick, fast paced culture. And this is where I do think that, um, you know, all the way back from the television to social media and the internet and everything, it's just, it's, it keeps speeding up kind of our living in the moment way of thinking. Um, I also wonder, are you familiar with the concept? And it's a book called Anti-Fragility.

It was a guy, Nassim Taleb, Lebanese scholar. I don't even know what his discipline is. He's kind of like a, what's it called? A renaissance man. He has all these different expertise. One of the most brilliant guys. And he wrote a book called Anti-Fragility that kind of like how the immune system isn't just resilient. It actually, when it faces stressors, it gets stronger. Our muscles are anti-fragile. They're not just resilient. Like if you put weight, if you lift weights, resistance is just like you can withstand that.

Anti-fragility is you get stronger when you face kind of pressure. And other psychologists, Jonathan Hayden, Luke Yanov, Greg Luke Yanov wrote a book called The Coddling of the American Mind, where they took this concept of anti-fragility and applied it to kind of some problems in even a very educational system. I'm going somewhere with this, by the way, Brooke. I don't expect you to, you know, these are kind of niche books. But long story short, in the last 10 years or so, we have overly, well, the name of the book, coddled people's thinking. And now if there's any kind of alternative viewpoint or something expressed that you get offended at, like, it's like, we're now are guarding people from that, you know, and creating sometimes people, you know, the safe space thing. Like if a speaker comes on a college

campus, you know, in certain colleges, and they might be a, God forbid, a Republican or something, you know, like they're now creating like safe spaces. No, this is going to cause trauma and all this stuff that people hear a conservative viewpoint. And there's a growing number of psychologists that are very concerned about that, that we are actually hurting people in the long run by over-protecting them from engaging in alternative viewpoints. And there does seem to be an over-diagnosis of calling everything kind of hate speech. Like, oh, no, if you – I mean, this is the world I live in. of calling everything kind of hate speech. Like, oh no, if you,

I mean, this is the world I live in. Like if you say that, hey, I happen to believe with global Christianity that marriage is between a man and a woman, like people would call that hate. If you just say that, like if you just say, I believe that, you don't have to believe that.

I'm a Christian, this is what I believe. That's seen as not just a different viewpoint, not even like a false viewpoint, but a dangerous viewpoint. All that to say, does any of this resonating and could this, if it's true that we are becoming more and more fragile rather than anti-fragile when it comes to kind of how we engage things mentally, or even how we maybe even deal with maybe some hardships in life. Maybe we have gone through some hard things, but I don't know. I've got too many thoughts going in my head right now. Could that be playing a role, kind of overly coddling people?

Absolutely. I think, and I'm going to say this, I'm going to preface this by saying the following viewpoints are my own and not that of Mercy Multiplied. I don't want to get anybody in trouble there. I don't know that anybody would disagree, but also, you know, just want to be clear. Yeah, there are so many studies done with rats specifically where they look at like, you know, and I and, and, and I want to give credit to this. I forget which study it was, but Kurt Thompson did reference this the other day. Um, if you haven't been guessed, I've been on a Kurt Thompson kick lately. Um, and he's so great. Um, and, uh, and so, you know, but they basically had all of these rats and they had them in, you know, what he referenced as like rat Disney world.

Right. So they're just living their best little rat dreams. Okay. And, um, and as a psychologist kid, I will just tell you, I had white rats and we got to build mazes and I got to teach them things. And like my mom hated it, but I, it was fantastic. I got to go to the rat lab at the university. It was fantastic.

Anyway. So they did all this, you know, had them in Rat Disney World. Then they removed, right, group B and they put them through all these trials. They didn't have enough food. They didn't have enough water. They introduced illness. They did kind of all of these things. And so put them back into Rat Disney World. Everything's fine. Pull them back out. Did the same thing back and forth, back and forth. And then what was interesting is then they put them back into Rat Disney World and then they exposed the entire group to the same things. The ones who made it, right, were the ones that had built the resilience.

They knew how to survive. They figured it out. Rat, everybody else, group A, they did not make it, lost their minds, died, you know, were not able to handle it, could no longer, were not functioning within the herd, if you will, or within the little rat pack. I don't know what rat actually packs are, but you know what I mean. And so it was just this really fascinating thing of like, we are meant, God created us to be very strong people. And I say God's people because I believe he created all people, right? So everybody, like he created us to be strong and resilient and smart. And, you know, we have the creator of the universe as inspiration.

So we should be able to see things and not be so emotionally caught up in something, you know, be able to process it in a healthy way. But what I think you're pointing out is 100%. So aside from all the people that have walked through trauma, right now, we have people who are trying to have trauma, because trauma is seen as, as, you know, you're a hero, you walk through something really hard. And, you know, you even hear like these things of, you know, but if you haven't actually i want to say this having the severity of mental health issues and the level of offense that we have in america is because we are if you want to talk about privilege right nobody in uganda gets to talk about whether or not they're depressed today or if they don't like what someone said. Okay. Like if you want to shift into these other countries that

are dealing with hard, real things, like it should be an honor that we even get to talk about the anxiety that we have and figure out a different way to handle things. And so it's so interesting to me. You know, and I say that because I've worked with several, you know, missionaries who have been overseas. And then when they transition back, you know, they're just kind of shocked at what it is, like the things that we see is offensive or, you know, not being able to just have a conversation or talk things out. And what I truly believe is when you sit across from someone, right, you can feel their energy, you feel their spirit and you can actually talk things out. But that's not honored to to opposing views. Sitting on the same stage is not what gets the play, you know. And so, you know, you don't typically have even if we get into kind of, you know, the sexuality issues and all those things that people don't get to to figure out whether they want to be whatever they want to

be when you're, you know, dealing with life and death situations consistently, you know. And so it's interesting to me to see, like, in some of these orphanages, you know, overseas and in kind of impoverished countries where the kids are functioning at a healthier level and they've been through some real stuff. They've seen mom and dad get killed. They've seen, you know, they haven't been cared for or they've been trafficked or they've, you know, the resilience that is built in that and then a gratefulness for not being in it anymore. I don't know. At some point, I feel like a gratefulness that I'm no longer in a situation disappeared. Like I have to keep identifying with my story or my trauma, you know, and if someone comes from a wonderful, healthy home, that's not really all that exciting

anymore. And that's not something that we're honoring, you know, it's now like, well, you didn't have to go through anything as if that is a terrible thing versus how incredible that your family created a healthy environment and you felt safe and you were, you know, a differentiated person and you can have boundaries and you're healthy. You know, we're now, that's now a bad thing, you know? That's interesting. No, I definitely, I mean, it kind of is wrapped up in the question about identity, like having or uniqueness too. And maybe this has to do with the lack of community to this need for uniqueness, for individuality. And sometimes some people could use a mental health issue to become more of an identity rather than something they're trying to overcome.

Or if they don't have a mental health issue. rather than something they're trying to overcome. Or if they don't have a mental health issue, yeah, for some people, again, I'm not saying this categorically, but for some people that could be like, well, everybody else does. All my favorite musicians do. My entertainers, they're all. Is it too strong to say it can? Having a mental health issue has become almost like there's a trendiness factor.

That might be a little too strong. I don't want to say it so condescending. I don't mean it in a condescending way strong. I don't want to say it. So condescending, I don't mean it in a condescending way. There's a better way to say it. Help me out. But like, is that, well, it's kind of what you said. Like there, there's almost with some people almost a desire to have a thing that distinguishes them, you know, as, as unique. Yeah. I mean, I think again, I think we're all,

we are all seeking to be told who we are and what our identity is. And so I think that can be a piece of it. I don't know that it's for everyone. I think people that have walked through genuine trauma probably would very much not like to identify with their trauma anymore. But I think then there are others that can create it, you know, and again, but it's all seeking to have a community. I mean, I'm just going to, I know probably beat a dead horse, but tie it back to that. Like we're all seeking to have an identity and have a community. Um, and, and even down to, you know, whatever role that we play in our family system, you know, um, if you are the sick one, if you

will, like that's the role you play. And when you start trying to not play that anymore, people get very upset. They like you to be how they expect you to be, you know, or if you are the one that's always OK. And then all of a sudden you're not right. Everyone's like, well, wait a second. You don't get to have feelings, you know. And so, you know, like I mean, I'll kind of always tie it back to that. And so, you know, like, I mean, I'll kind of always tie it back to that. But I think it's always out of a genuinely good desire to be seen, to have an identity, to know who you are, to connect.

And I just think it gets, you know, if we as the church are not helping people see what that is and like how to be healthy and where their identity can be found. They're going to find it wherever, however, you know, and this isn't just like that we're going to prevent all mental health. Like there are people that struggle with things and that's OK. And there are people that, you know, were born afflicted, if you will. And our job is to just love them so well through that, not to make them perfect or change them or anything else. I mean, with the work that you do, it's like just being present with someone and knowing them, you know. So I think it's we make it a huge thing, but I think we could really just pull it back to how often am I really present with the people around me? it back to how often am I really present with the people around me? I just think it's so, just coming back to that statistic you shared earlier, and I've heard this from many different people that one third of all women and one quarter of all men have been a victim on some level of

sexual abuse or unwanted sexual coercion or whatever. So when I'm preaching at church and I look out, there's 1,000 people there. Yeah. Very high percentage. I mean, let's split the difference. So 25%, 33%, let's just say close to 30% of the people I'm looking at have been a victim of abuse. I don't expect you to have this offhand,

but how many would you guess of the 30% have not really dealt with it either at all? Like nobody really knows about it or they haven't really healed from that. And then my next question is how does somebody heal from sexual abuse? Are there some big picture stuff that you can easily say? Yeah. Um, it'll, I mean, it honestly, it depends on, on the person's culture too. You know, we, we know that, you know, the BIPOC community seeks out mental health support significantly less. And again, I don't want to mess this up, but I think it's like 60% less than the, uh, black indigenous The white community typically will seek it out at a higher level. But I think honestly, if you look at, you know, if you're speaking at a church, you know, I need to actually run the numbers on that. Like if you're a member of a religious community, what, how many people are actually seeking mental

health services? But just in my experience, if I was picking a statistic that has no value whatsoever, because I've done no data study on this. So if you're looking at 30%, one in three, I mean, I would probably say maybe 10% of them would seek help. Wow. Okay. So it's not 80%. I mean, I know you're trying to ballpark it. We're talking like a very small percentage. I would say significantly. Yeah. Because, you know, we just need to push that all down and make it go away. And, you know, or they've been hurt when they've shared it, you know, or, you know, or they are continuing to have to be in those relationships. And of course, men seek help significantly less than women, you know, outside help. So, you know, I think this idea of coping has become like, well, I'm coping with it. I don't think it's affecting me every day, you know, and so generally people seek help when they realize, oh, this is affecting me every day. Not because someone is like, hey,

like this is a hard thing and you can, you know, choose to heal from it. It doesn't have to be a part of your life. It's only when it really intervenes with your daily life that typically someone will seek help, you know, or someone points out, Hey, you're not okay. And, and, you know, what can, what can we do about it? Is it usually a friend or family member that's the perpetrator? Uh, you know, that it definitely used to be, yes. I think, oh gosh, what are the numbers on that? It is a really high percentage that the person is known, not necessarily a friend, but that they are known, connected acquaintance of some kind. Yeah. So the idea that you're more likely to be, I guess as a question, uh, but I'll say it as a statement, uh, you're more likely to be

sexually abused by somebody within your circle of known people rather than walking on the street, you know, being picked up. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that I think they sold, you know, us women that like, watch out for those dark alleys. Like, no, it's a significantly, like, in fact, it's almost very low chance. So rather than watch out for the dark alley, you should watch out for the family reunions or the Bible studies.

I feel like I – Yeah. It's a weird – I went through a stretch for a couple of years where I feel like every other pastor I talked to had their child, many of whom were male, who were a victim of sexual abuse by the elder son, the elder or pastor, like in a church context at a Bible study, we didn't even know we got done the Bible study. And then two days later, my son said, this is what happened. I just like, wow, this is like, or that family member who I never would have guessed it. It's just, it's yeah. Yeah. It is really crazy. And I think it's, um, yeah, it's crazy. It is really crazy. And I think it's, yeah, I mean, or, you know, the date or the whatever. But typically, I think you're right, like within the church.

And it's just access. It's access. I have access. And we give people kind of unadulterated access into our lives sometimes, you know, because there's, it's just an interesting place to like trust but verify, you know, that like just because someone is a part of the church or something, you know, you can't necessarily trust that they will that they are good or whatever. But, you know, we also have an increased access to, you know, what we've seen of and this is a whole other thing that I promise I will not go too far down the road. this is a whole other thing that I promise I will not go too far down the road, but just like with,

you know, with the internet, with access of, you know, pornography and all of those things, like it's just increased what a child necessarily has access to and then can expose another child to, you know, it isn't always that they were specifically sexually abused. You know, it used to be the case of some, if a child is sexually abusing someone, well then they were, you know, and that's still a high percentage, but typically it's there, you know, they can have, or not typically now we have another factor of like exposed, being exposed to pornography, you know, acting out those sorts of things. Um, and so, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a sad, scary thing. And, and I think that's why we have to be able to talk about hard things openly and, you know, unashamedly and meet people where they're at so that this stuff doesn't stay in the dark because it is hurting.

It is hurting our kids. And then from a spiritual standpoint, I think you're just like, well, why didn't God protect them? It can just really get into some dark places. So what are the big picture steps? How does somebody start to heal from being a victim of abuse? Like if somebody, if somebody, if, well, if a third of the people listening statistically have gone through it, a small percentage have really sought help. So this is a lot of people out there listening. Like, what would you say to them

to, to, to heal from it? Yeah. I think one thing that we don't talk about, but typically in mental health, but I think is really important is that the, the actual event of being abused is bad, right? But it is typically how the family handles it that ends up being the most traumatic. And so a lot of times, you know, people are like, okay, you know, that event, you know, we can typically get over a really, not that it's not awful, you know, people are like, okay, you know, that event, you know, we can typically get over a really, not that it's not awful, you know, I'm not saying that, but we can typically heal pretty quickly from a one-time event, but the way, you know, or even kind of series of events, but typically once the family finds out the way that they handle it and make the victim feel is

where most of the trauma comes in. And so number one is really thinking through if you're willing to do this, you know, of like, you know, okay, yeah, the event was hard, but how did everyone around me handle it? And how did that make me feel? And if you can kind of identify those areas of maybe shame that came in, or, you know, maybe, you know, this idea of like, hey, we're just never going to talk about that. I mean, I can or, you know, maybe, you know, this idea of like, Hey, we're just never going to talk about that. I mean, I can't tell you how many times, not only do we not talk about it, this person gets to stay in our lives and, you know, and, and these are people, you know, from the, from the church. Um, and, and so typically that is where I see the most damage done, right?

Most of the healing comes from how everyone around them handled it. And so, or like look to the other way or whatever, whatever the context of the scenario is. And so I think number one is, is if that is something that happened to you and you can, you know, honestly say, you know what, I don't know that I've really walked through any healing. I'm not sure that it bothers me. And assuming this person has a relationship with the Lord is, is I think actually inviting him into that space of just like, where are the areas that this is actually influencing me? Like, where's the, are the, the ways that this is my worldview, you know, something like this. And it can be something small, like I just don't trust anybody. And so I'm not really connected. I don't feel, you know, connected to a group of people. I'm just kind of there. Or it can be, you know, all the way out to, you know, have you identified areas that maybe like your emotional responses don't really match the situation? the thing. Our body holds onto it, but it does not let it go. So you can push it all in all the areas you want to push it, but it doesn't let it go. Um, we are, we are made to process. God is a God

of process. We are made to process things. We are made grief is a process. We are made to grieve. And I think the next lie that we hear is like, well, you'll have to go so far into it that it'll, you know, like, I can't feel more devastated than I already feel. And I think the truth is that you can grieve and be grateful for things at the same time. We can do that at the same time. It doesn't have to be just this life-destroying process. And so I think if you've identified anything in that, I mean, of course, as a counselor, I say, go find a really good counselor to help you because they're not in your family and they're not a part of it and they can help you see things a

different way, you know, but I think that first step is honestly just to go, okay, like I need some support. And then I always say this too, who in your life can be praying for you? And they don't have to know what's going on, but you just know that they're covering you, you know? And if someone's not a person of faith, then who, you know, who in your life can be covering you in the sense of just like, you know, what, like that you feel seen. I'm thinking about you. You know, let's go do some fun things together, because by the way, when you're dealing with healing from trauma, make sure you have some fun in your life. It helps, you know, like life doesn't have to stop because you start healing. And I think we believe, we don't necessarily believe that to be true always, you know.

Last question, how can the church embody Jesus better in this conversation? When I say this conversation, I mean, just a big overarching conversation of mental health. If that high of a percentage has faced sexual abuse, we haven't talked about just physical abuse, emotional abuse, other traumatic events. Add to that mental health issues that might be linked to that or just not linked to that. Clinical depression, genetically linked people on medication. I mean, everything we've talked about, we're talking about the majority of people in our churches. There's probably a small percentage that have not gone through any really traumatic, abusive situation or don't have any real mental health issues they're wrestling with. How can the church, if you're speaking to church leaders now, you got many church leaders listening, watching. What would you say like,

hey, we can't just pretend like all this stuff doesn't exist. How are we preaching and discipling and leading people well so that they can... Because it can be such a hindrance in their Christian walk, right? I mean, that's... Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm starting to get really sad right now. It seems daunting and overwhelming. But I guess maybe remind us all again that we are anti-fragile. We are very resilient. And we have the spirit of God living in us. So yeah, we shouldn't be discouraged.

I'm almost went to dark places thinking about how overwhelmed I am right now. But yeah, big things to tell leaders. I mean, I like your emphasis on community. I would imagine that's part of it. But yeah, what big things to tell leaders? I mean, I like your emphasis on community. I would imagine that's part of it, but what else? I think, okay, I'm gonna go down a list, okay? Because you asked, and then you told me there are church leaders listening. And so I will take every opportunity to do that. I think number one, just understanding that, you know, I have heard several pastors tell me, they have told me to my face, okay? when we've talked about how can we come and equip your church to work with people who are hurting. And they have said to me, I don't have anyone here that is dealing with that.

So just side note, maybe your church isn't great. I don't know. I don't know what you're doing if you don't have hurting people in your church. Just I'll throw that out there. So number one, just acknowledge that you do, you do have hurting people and that's not something to be feared. And I think that's the number one thing for pastors. And I say this out of complete respect and a love, cause obviously my dad is a pastor, right? Um, is, is that you don't have to fear it. He has equipped the people in your church. He's equipped you, but not alone. And it has to be if you're talking about building a community, how do we equip the individual members of our church to understand what I call their scope of practice? Because if everyone if we talk about everybody in the body does their job right.

You have some people that are called to war in the prayer room for others. Right. You have some that are called to lead small groups or host them or, you know, just be present, you know, like that they're really great with sitting with people in a hard place or they're really great with engaging events or, you know, whatever it is. But I feel like we overwhelm people and we don't actually teach them how to go talk with the Lord. And what has He asked you to do in this season. Is this season a time for you to, you know, take a couple people and have a small Bible study? Is this season a time for you to be an accountability partner or a mentor or a prayer

warrior or whatever it is? Like we kind of act like if it's not covering the children's ministry, then we don't know what you do, you know? And so I think that actually, if every one of us understood our scope within what God has called us to do in the church, just like I have to understand my scope of practice as a clinician, you know, if we understand whatever season it is, because sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, you know, I think if we equipped people to do those small things that we will see a great impact in the church. And then the pastor also doesn't have to carry it on his own because that's always the lie. I think from the enemy that, you know, you should be the mental health expert pastor versus, hey, there are a lot of people that I love Jesus.

I will come help you. know, there's a lot of us that love Jesus and that we can come help and support and, you know, help have resources and even referral places and building a community outside of the church itself of who are counselors you trust or medical doctors or any of these people. And it just doesn't, it doesn't have to be done on its own. But I think just the very simple thing of how do you equip each person in your church to talk to the Lord and go, what has he asked you to do in this season, you know, um, and, and, and support them in that, you know? So I hope that's a little bit more. That's super helpful. And there's, uh, we can keep going on, but I'm, I'm taking you up against

the hour here. Uh, is there a place people could find you? Or I guess I should ask, do you want people to find you? A lot of people are like, Brooke, can I have a three-hour conversation with you? I've got something I'm working through or whatever. But yeah, do you? No, I'm super lame. I'm not on social media because I cannot handle it in my community, if you will, because I carry this here. And so I don't. But I am on LinkedIn, actually. And of course, if you will, because I carry this here. And so I don't, but I am on LinkedIn actually.

And of course, you know, my email at Mercy, anybody can reach out. I'm happy to talk. And we do podcasts as well, you know, through Mercy of just kind of talking about mental health and faith and, you know, what that looks like and boundaries and all those super fun things. But, but yeah, I'm not on, I'm not on any of the cool places, but I am on LinkedIn. LinkedIn, I didn't know that was still around.

Are you on MySpace? No, I'm just kidding. No, I probably still have a profile actually, but yeah. So Mercy, what's Mercy's website again? Because yeah, you guys have loads of good resources there. Yeah, yeah, we do. It's mercymultiplied.com. Mercymultiplied.com. Cool.

Well, thanks so much, Brooke, for being on Theology in a Row. I really appreciate your wisdom, your heart, and everything that you do. I appreciate you. Thank you.