Theology in the Raw - 867: Missology, Islam, Christo-centric Trinitarianism, and What it Means to Know God: Dr. Christy Thornton

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Dr. Thornton recently finished her Ph.D. in Systematic Theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, where she currently serves as associate director of Ph.D. Studies and director of the Th.M program. Christy also served as a missionary in Morocco, which sparked her interested in the conversation about how best to reach Muslims (i.e. the C1-C6 spectrum).  In this conversation, we discuss the C1-C6 spectrum, Moorocan culture, and missions, and then we discuss her shift from Missiology to Systematic Theology, discussing different theological methodologies, epistemology, ontology, and Christo-centric Trinitarian theology.   Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Dr. Christy Thornton. Christy just recently completed her PhD at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and she currently serves as the Associate Director of PhD Studies and Director of the THM program at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. And we had a wonderful conversation talking about missiology. Christy served as a missionary in North Africa in Morocco for a number of years. And so we talk about kind of different missiological approaches to reaching Muslims. And then we also talk about her main theological interest in taking what she calls a Christocentric Trinitarian approach to understanding

God. And we unpack what exactly that means. And we talk about other things related to ontology, epistemology, and life as a female evangelical academic. And I just had such a delightful time talking to Christy. We've only corresponded through email before. So this is our first conversation together. And I absolutely love talking to her. I think you will like listening to her. We did have some audio glitches along the way. I think there was a poor internet connection. As you guys know, it's usually on my end. I think this time it was on Christy's end. So you'll see some glitches along the way. And there was one time it kind of cut out and my audio engineer is going to clean up as much as he can. But there still might be a couple bumps here and there, but it didn't really take away from the content. There was nothing she said

that was completely missed through the various glitches. So I didn't want to trash this conversation because it was such a rich conversation. If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and support the show for as little as five bucks a month. All of that info is in the show notes if you would like to support the show. Without further ado, let's get to know the one and only Dr. Christy Thornton. Christy, thanks so much for being a first-time guest on Theology in the Raw. I was so excited when we reached out and saw if you had time to do this. I'm really excited. I don't know if you have time to do it, but you're doing it. So thanks for being on the show.

Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. So why don't you begin? Just tell people who you are, your story, how you maybe not so much like, you know, well, you can share a little bit about your Christian testimony, but I would love to hear about your theological journey, because you're in a really awesome position right now at Southeastern. I would love to hear kind of your journey, because you're in a really awesome position right now at Southeastern. I would love to hear kind of your journey and how you got there.

Yeah, no, a great question. Thanks for asking. So I grew up in a Christian home, so it's a solid background for me. My dad's a pastor. I served with the International Mission Board in North Africa, where I taught English and studied Arabic. And then I came back to the States intending to return overseas with the International Mission Board career. So when I came to Southeastern, which is where, I don't know if you said that, but I'm at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. And when I came to Southeastern in almost a decade ago, I came here to get the 20 hours that I needed to like check the seminary box and go back overseas. Um, and I, like, I thought I would be here for like 18 months and that was literally nine years ago. Um, so that's a whole funny story. Um, but yeah, so I came here

for that. And then the Lord, uh, in his grace and sovereignty shut the door for me to go overseas. And at that point, um, you know, I, I'm super driven to serve the church, super driven, um, to participate in God's mission. And I wasn't sure what to do. Uh, and in the middle of that kind of realized that the Lord had gifted me and knowledge, like, um, like school's always easy for me. And I thought that was normal. Like I thought everyone's school was just easy for them, but like, it's not. Um, and at that point had some professors who pulled me aside and were like, Hey, Christy, we think you're uniquely gifted. He thought about doing a PhD. And so I decided to finish my graduate degree. So my graduate works in missiology. So I kind of cut my teeth and

thinking about missional strategy, thinking about what the mission is and engaging cross-culturally. So I worked with Arab Muslims and thinking about what it would be like to do that long term. So this kind of missional orientation for theology is deep in my bones. That's what I do. But eventually when I got into the Ph.D., realized that I'm probably more of a theologian. And I didn't really know that, like, I could do that. Like, is that like against the rules? Like, can I do that?

Apparently I can. Uh, apparently I can. And then kind of moved from this serious commitment to commissions, which I still have to seeing theology as a missional endeavor, um, proclamation of Christ and his church, uh, which eventually gave birth to, and we'll talk to this in a second, I'm sure, but my dissertation interests and my research interests now that are kind of around Trinitarian Christocentric ways of thinking, um, and particularly as it relates to theology and the church, um, for the mission. So that's a, kind of a brief snapshot of where I come from and who I am. So you speak, are you fluent in Arabic or speak Arabic or? Uh, I mean, I'm conversational in a couple of different dialects of Arabic is the

best way to say it. Uh, you know, it's a little rusty, but if I went back and lived there, you know, I'm conversational. I do, I can do well. It made Hebrew really easy for me. I'll say at my graduate level, because they're like very similar languages. So all my peers were struggling and I was like, y'all, this is a breeze. Where exactly in North Africa were you? Yeah. So I lived in Morocco. So I've been robot morocco um and then have spent some time in a couple of other countries but the bulk of my time was in morocco morocco so so um this is maybe my audience could care less about this but i would love to visit it's on my bucket list for a long time is that something i know hardly anything about i i've heard amazing things about the

culture in terms of like visitors and tourism and stuff. Is that, is it super dangerous? Is it mild? Is it, uh, um, so Moroccans generally are very hospitable. Uh, but if you're a white guy, you better be on the lookout. They're going to try to take advantage of you. They're not going to hurt you, but they're going to rip you off. That's just the way it goes. That's how they make their living. It's actually doing that. But man, but it's an incredibly hospitable culture. And there's so much like phenomenally good food,

not like Lebanese, Middle Eastern food. So it's not like hummus and baba ghanoush. It's like tagines and like lots of spices because they're on the spice route. So they picked up the spices that were coming in from India as they were going up to Europe. And so their traditional foods have all these spices in them. And oh, it's amazing. And does it have like a Spanish Portuguese influence? Because they're so close, right?

To Spain? I mean, so it's more French because they were a French protectorate for like 60 years. And so the European influence is predominantly French. When you get up to the north, where, because there's eight kilometers between Spain and Morocco. So they're very close. When you get up to the North where, cause there's eight kilometers between Spain and Morocco. So they're very close. When you get up North, there's a little bit more Spanish influence, but for most of the country, it's French, which means there are lots of great French pastries and things, which is fun. Obviously I think a lot about food. So when I travel, I travel with food. We, we, we have that in common. I'm as you're talking, it's like lunchtime right now. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's wing day at my favorite pub right now. It's like discounted wings.

I'm like, oh, don't do it. Don't do it. But it's like Cinco de Mayo. Shouldn't you be eating Mexican food? Oh, right. Oh, gosh. See, the thing about Mexican food is I just can't stop. Oh, I know.

Chips and guac. I could live off of chips, salsa, guac, any dish, carne asada burrito or something. And I just don't know how to stop. I almost avoid Mexican food because it's like I just – Right. But today's the day, right? Today's the day. It's a celebration.

Let it roll. Eat that guac. Oh, man. And there's a place here that has a – during like a happy hour, they have free chips and salsa with like a good queso, and then they have like margarita deals. I'm like, no, I need to be working. But anyway.

All right. I don't even know what we're supposed to talk about now, Christy. You threw me off. Okay, so Morocco. Were you in Casablanca? That's the only city I know in Morocco. No, I lived in Rabat, which is the capital. Oh, okay.

Is Casablanca like a touristy? Why do we all know Casablanca besides the movie? You know, because of the movie. But also, when the French came in, Casa was like a fishing village. they, it became the industrial city. So it's like the big industrial city. It's where a lot of the jobs are. A lot of the business is run out of Casa.

But there are five imperial cities where the king has a formal residence and Casa is not one of the five imperial cities. So its history is a little bit less and different. I'm a robotic in my heart. So I always have to give a little shade to Casa. So maybe offline, I'll get some suggestions on where we can go. Oh, for sure! So with the missiology piece, I know you kind of switched to more systematic theology, but it's been a while, so bear with me. But I remember, I think I went through a perspectives course, and then we had a big missions thread to our curriculum at Eternity Bible College, where I used to teach. Shout out to Eternity, if anybody's looking for a killer Bible college education.

They didn't pay me to say that. But we weaved in, basically, like, you know, perspectives, like that semester long. We had a two and a half year like perspectives on a high dose of steroids two and a half year like conversational sweep through history with a missiological focus one of the things we dug into was the missiological debates about how to reach a muslim culture what's the different numbers is it for some reason i'm thinking the c scale yes yes yeah can you explain that to an audience that may not know what that Muslim culture. What's the different numbers? For some reason, I'm thinking one. The C scale? Yes, yes. Can you explain that to an audience that may not know what that is? And I would

love to hear your thoughts on that because that really fascinated me when I was wrestling with that. Yeah, so it's real complicated. But the general idea for the C scale is the lower the number, the less contextualized the engagement with a Muslim is. The higher the number, the less contextualized the engagement with a Muslim is. The higher the number, the more the Muslim stays in either their religious and their cultural context. Okay. So like C1 is Muslims are in their churches wearing Western clothing, using Western language in a Western liturgy. Right. And then C6 is like, we don't even know that

they're Christians because they're hidden Muslims for whatever reasons and then everything in between. So I kind of live my world in this kind of C4 level, um, which is, uh, we've taken on, uh, language of the Muslim. So whether that's, you know, Bahasa Indonesian or Arab or Arabic or like whatever. So in the language, the liturgy is culturally at home, so we're not having them take in a Western liturgy. But there is some identifying proclamation of, I am a Christian and I am not a Muslim. As opposed to when we start moving up to C5, it becomes,

oh, I'm a Jesus-following Muslim. And I find that problematic in the text of the scriptures and in the historical statement of confession. What does it mean to be a confessing Christian? And the reasons for that, and I'm happy to acknowledge, persecution is a real deal. And I have lived in a persecuted environment with very close friends who are living that in very real ways. And that's why C5 becomes what it is, is because it mediates or mitigates kind of the threat of persecution in a lot of ways, because you're not saying I'm a Christian. But to be a confessing Christian, I think is kind of central to the Christian faith.

Is there an underlying kind of concern or tension that so much of being a Muslim is wrapped up in culture? It's not like all religious. So you're, you're like maybe a C5 critic of a C1 would say, you're just, you're just telling this person to renounce all the, these cultural things that aren't necessarily religious and vice versa. The other person would say, no,

all that cultural stuff is baptized in religion or. Oh yeah. No, I think that's a huge part of it. And, and like in the west because that by the west is an unfair statement so like in america uh and in particular 21st century america like religion becomes this thing that you like you don't talk about religion and politics unless

you want to pick a fight uh and so but like there it's that's not like their life is religious everything that they do is kind of tainted by their, not tainted, but influenced by their religion. And so it's just a very different type of conversation that feels unfamiliar. So we have to kind of acknowledge that like everything that they do from like the casual phrases that they say, like when you drop change, like if you drop something and you're like, oh, I don't know what to do. Uh-oh.

Instead of saying, uh-oh, they'll say like, may the Lord bless and keep you. Like they say something like the Lord have mercy on your parents. It's like a common phrase in in Morocco to say instead of. And so even like simple things like that are like informed by their religion. And so it's just a whole nother world of the way that we deal with it. But it's all this question of, yeah, culture and how culture relates to religion. And I, I mean, I have more significant critiques of like a C1 than I do a C5, but I have serious questions about both.

Both of them, I think are errant. Right. We have to live in some middle zone, um, for both of those were, but we're actually proclaiming Christ. I don't, I don't want to proclaim Islam. I want to proclaim Christ. Isn't a sticking point to whether I could say a converted Muslim should still pray to Allah, like use Allah, just now you're the content of what this name for God is, is different, but you still say Allah or is that not? Yeah, I mean, in the like American discussion of this, that's true.

And in the Arab, so Allah knows the Arab world. So if we talk about some other context i have no idea uh but in the arab world like it depends on where which country you're in like moroccan christians will use a law in their prayers because it's just it's just like english saying god okay well well do you mean the hindu god do you mean the christian god or like you have to define how the term god is used so broadly so um so in morocco they use the term because there's no traditional christian population uh like it's 99 muslim whereas like in egypt you'll have 10 coptic christians 90 muslims or like in the levant like jordan or or lebanon you'll have traditional christian populations

and the language works differently when you have traditional populations of multiple religions. So like in Egypt, they would never use Allah because that says I'm a Muslim in that country. But in Morocco, Christians have no problem using it because there's no like tension between these two historical groups. So it's about 1% Christian in Morocco. Are they persecuted? If that, 1% Christian, if that. I think that's actually a stretch because the 1% is a hodgepodge of people, but basically 99% Muslim. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So Christians all over the Arab world are persecuted in one way or another. And in Morocco, that's particularly true because there's no historical protectorate for them,

as opposed to Coptics are persecuted in Egypt for sure still, but there's some historical protectorate or in the Levant, there's some level of, um, historical protection, but there's none in Morocco. Uh, but I, yeah, Muslims, yeah. Uh, Muslim background all over the world are being persecuted for their faith as a normal part of the Christian life. Yeah. I've done some work in Nepal, and it's similar there, man. Gosh, you hear these stories of especially Hindu women, you know, converting to Christianity, and man, they are persecuted by their husbands,

their family, they're cut off. Oh, yeah. The need for Christian community is just categorical. It's like we don't have categories for that. Like we shop around for the one that we resonate with, whatever. For them, it's like to be around believers is just like it's the time in their week when they might not be beaten by their husbands, you know? So when they're crying out to Jesus, it's something categorically different than you hear in any American worship service.

Yeah, because step one for many Muslim Christians when they're open about it is that they're beaten and then exiled from their family. So that's like step one. So you lose your family, you lose some level of your physical health. And then if you're in some environments, you'll also have an influence of some government infiltration. So you get it coming from your family and then also coming from the outside. So, I mean, it's a tough world. The Lord is gracious, though, to His church, even in persecution. And one more thing on the E, isn't it also the levels of different E1 through 6?

Because Christianity is seen as just a Western thing, so that converting to Christianity is like, oh, so you're just becoming American. You're becoming the nation that is oppressing our people and all these things. Like there's so much political national stuff wrapped up into that. Right.

And then, so I can imagine that a E four, five, six would minimize that because you're explicitly not trying to pull them out of their culture. You're making a stronger distinction between Western culture and Christianity when you're, when you get to the E, the higher E numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I think that's right.

So as you kind of move up the scale, it becomes, this isn't a Western religion because it's like not, I mean, like in all sorts of ways we can make our case about statistically, like Christianity is really not, even the Christians in the world right now are not like predominantly western that's a joke um but for them culturally christianity is associated with the west or the white people and so uh yeah that's true so as you move up the scale there becomes this thing but you can be culturally arab and also be a christian you don't have to become an american or become a

western or do that that's, which is very biblical. I'm fascinated with missiological discussions. Let's transition to systematic theology. You said a Christocentric Trinitarian theology. Can you unpack that and maybe give

us a landscape of always, as a theologian, there's debates, right? There's probably different views or whatever. Give us the landscape of always, as a theologian, you know, there's debates, right? There's probably different views or whatever. So give us the kind of array of how people are thinking through that and where you land and why you land where you land. Yeah. So, I mean, I live in a few different worlds. But one of the questions that's kind of central to my area of academic research is like, what is theology? Like, what are we even talking about when we say theology, particularly as an academic discipline? So there's a group of people who see theology as what we could term Bible doctrine or, hey, I come to the Bible, I have a question or I

have a topic. I pull all the verses that are related to that. I put them together and reassemble those verses in some type of way, and I'm going to call that a doctrine. That's one view for theological method. There are a lot of things that are beneficial about that view, particularly to kind of orient you to some of the things that the text is saying. I think it's really valuable. But there's a group of people that have responded to that to be like, you know, I think there's some undergirding convictions about the way that knowledge works that's kind of problematic. So we started asking questions of, okay, so is knowledge just a list of right things to say, or is there more that's happening when we talk about knowing God or particularly theological

knowledge? And I think we have to say that there is. And even those who are doing this kind of specifically narrow Bible doctrine method, that they want to take Bible doctrine and then apply it to the church. So it's not like they're like, I don't care about the church. I just want you to say all the right things. But my questions are kind of, well, does that method actually produce faithful Christians? Does it actually produce a growth in knowledge of God? Or does it talk about knowledge the way the Bible talks about knowledge, um, as I read it? And so, so I started kind of asking those questions because like I said, in my personal story, like I came from missions, a high value for the local church switched to theology.

had this heart to heart with a major professor and I was like, yo, so like, if theology is this thing we do in the classroom and it's not related to the church, I'm not particularly interested in this. And he was like, but what if it didn't have to be that? And so I started kind of asking this question of, you know, if, if the church is central, what does that have to do with our knowledge? And so when I, as we start kind of developing this question of the epistemic question, what does it mean to know God? What does it mean to know? That leads to a whole other world of some different options. So some people respond to something that's a kind of a narratival view of theology. something of that to that end, which I think is really helpful. And that's a helpful move kind of away from it's just these words. So there's this kind of hermeneutic narratival argument that's happening. And then my world lives in the in the categories of what we might say formally is ontology. So how does being who God is, who God is in Christ, relate to our knowledge of God. And so

my starting place for a lot of this is like John 17, 3. This is eternal life that you know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. Or like in the book of Ephesians, we have all these prayers for this knowledge of God or the expectation in Ephesians 4 that the apostles, prophets, and teachers equip the saints for the work of the ministry to the end that we might all attain to the unity of the faith in the knowledge of the Son of God. So there's something about the way the Bible talks about knowledge is this like participatory knowledge in God and Christ that's growing up in Christian maturity. And so eventually that leads me to this kind of dogmatic world lives in the ontology category. So the starting place for how we do theology has to do with who God is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and then how he has revealed himself in Christ. And we know Christ through the

scriptures empowered by the Spirit. Yeah. So it's kind of a brief overview of kind of how I ended up here methodologically. Well, that is, so I'm, I'm primarily a Paul guy where I used to be, I got to stop saying, I used to be a Pauline scholar. And one of the major movements in, in Pauline studies happened when Albert Schweitzer wrote a book, I'm blinking on the name, but he, he pointed out that Paul's number one most pervasive phrase in all of his letters is not justification by faith. It's not salvation, soteria. It's in Christ. It's that

phrase that we are in Christ, I think over a hundred times. It is everywhere. And even something like justification by faith, that's Romans, Galatians, you know, a little bit in Philippians, but it's not in really Ephesians. It's not in other letters. But in Christ is everywhere in Paul's letters, especially Ephesians and others. So that kind of that, if you're going to have a centerpiece of Paul's understanding of the Christian life, it flows from this participatory aspect of being in Christ. Yes. I'm like, in my heart, I'm like, yes. Right. Because, and this is the thing, like, like God is triune, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God loved us so much that he sent his only begotten

Son to become human for us so that our knowledge of God is human because Jesus is human, but participates in the divine life because he's the son. One person, two natures. That's what you're supposed to say. Oh yeah, Jesus, he's one person and two natures. But what does that mean? What does it mean that we have the person of the son who is both human and divine? And then what does that mean for our actual life in Christ,

our actual growth and knowledge of God, our salvation, that we are made new in his humanity? Oh, it's so exciting. Now, everything you're saying, I mean, um, that we are made new in his humanity. Um, oh, it's so exciting. Now, everything you're saying, I mean, it seems like who would disagree with that? Is it more of like an emphasis or a starting point? Is it epistemology, epistemological differences? Or cause would somebody stand up and say, no, Christy, how could you dare say that life in Christ? Yeah. So nobody's picking a fight because I'm just, I just like recounted Chalcedon. So if we're picking a fight about Chalcedon, we've got some other issues. So no one's picking a fight about Chalcedon, but they are,

but the discussions are around, you know, the discipline of theology. How does our personal experience relate to the words that we say? And like, do we want this kind of strict, uh, inter interaction between so that I come so like in the first model that I gave a Bible doctrine and I picked the right words and I reformed them together to come up with a list. Oh, Christy, you broke up there. Are you there? Sorry to cut you off. And then... Oh, Christy, sorry. Your internet cut out just for a second. I think mine's okay.

Oh, no. Yeah, just go back maybe 10 seconds. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just kind of talking about... Yeah, so nobody's picking a fight about Chalcedon because we're Christians. But when we think about that first group of people, the Bible doctrine people, the, I pick out these verses and I realign them and turn them into a doctrine.

Um, that group of people that that whole process begins with, you know, I am an objective observer to the text. I am neutral to the text. Um, my goal is to kind of void myself of presuppositions so that I can have this objective interpretation. A part of what's happening on our end of the kind of dogmatics world is like, that's not possible. And just acknowledging there's no such thing as a neutral observer. We're all coming to the text with all that we are. And so what if knowledge wasn't just, I wiped myself of knowledge, I input right information, and then if I put in

the right information, then I live the right life. Because you're a Pauline guy. Paul's not doing that. Paul's not think all the right things, and then you live this way. There's this integrated life in the church, our actual engagement with one another, our confession of Christ. And we bring all of that to our reading the scriptures. And that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. Because we're Christians. And so we can read the text as Christians and as Christian scripture and expect that our knowledge has this integrative facet to it where we can, the experiences that we have in Christ are beneficial for our understanding the text. So that when we look at him, Jesus forgiving, or we look at Jesus's commands for us to forgive

one another, well, we can't, it's okay to us to forgive one another. Well, it's okay to come to that text and be like, man, I remember that time I did Dirty by Preston and Preston forgave me for that. And that impacted me. Like, that's not a bad thing. Like that's growth in Christian maturity because the goal wasn't, I said all the right things. The goal is maturity to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. So some of it's tell-off. So like, what's the purpose of this? What's the end of this? What's the goal? And are we integrating the words that we say with the lives that we live? And how do you do that in the discipline of theology? And that's where the discussion is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. And yeah,

in more New Testament studies, I mean, that's, yeah, it was kind of a wake-up call for me because I was raised in an environment where it's the Bible doctrine. You know, you make a statement and then quote 15 verses to back it up. And then therefore, if you just do the right exegesis, then you will agree with my theological position. And it seems like it's, and in a way it is honoring the authority of scripture. I did come to see largely through my PhD in New Testament that just hermeneutically, it's a little naive. And I don't mean that in a condescending way. It's just, it doesn't, it just, it's not,

I think it fails to understand the complexity of human interpretation. Right? Yes. And that's the word I would use. Like, it's not that, but I want to be really clear. I affirm propositional truth. So like, I'm not, I'm not fighting about that at all. In fact, without affirm it. And that's necessary for our growth. But the question is like, how do those relate? And complexity is the question.

How do you deal with complex ways of knowing that life's not simple and knowledge is not simple? And the Bible doesn't presume for the knowledge to be simple in I think there's a, on the propositional truth side, I think people are nervous of like a full on postmodern reading. It's like, well, if this means it's to you, then that's truth. And yeah, yeah. And I'm, yeah, I'm equally concerned with that too. Cause I do see, um, I see dangers in, in both worlds. Um, and yeah, I'm trying to find like, so one thing that often comes up, especially when I, you know, I, uh, I, I tend to deal with controversial topics. I don't know why, how I got into this field, but, um, you know, I often will hear, you know, well, that's just,

yeah, that's, that's, that works for you. That's, that's your interpretation or, or more negatively, well, you just see it that way. Cause you're a white heterosexual cisgender male, you know? so you, um, I'm like, well, that all of those things are true. And I'm not going to deny that those don't play a role in my interpretive process, but it's not like a, that doesn't therefore mean that all readings of scripture are equally valid just because they're somebody made that reading, you know, like there are some readings that are more valid than others. And I know it's kind of messy to determine which ones are better than others. You know,

I don't know. It's a. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think my position in that, like, I'm not so much looking to engage in that side of the conversation, valid and important, because I am saying we bring things to the text, but I really mean our like Christian experience in the church is what we bring to the text. So we've sat under the teaching of a pastor for a long time. We engage in small groups. We've had personal engagements, both in proclaiming Christ to others and not. And those things are the way that God forms his church. So this is just discipleship. So when we're discipled, that impacts the way we read the text of Scripture in a good way. But for me, a lot of it's the object. So if we think the object of theology, what are we trying to do here? Are we just trying to regurgitate the things that the Bible said? Or are we trying to really know God? Are we trying to be like Christ as the primary object? And then you backwards plan from there, right? So if you

like a teacher. So if this is our goal, then what do we need to do if I want to be like Christ? And, and, and my argument is that, and theology is fundamentally growing in Christlikeness. Like that, like that, that, that is the, the, the telos of theology, theological knowledge is knowing God in Christ and then growing up into him in that full knowledge. And so that's one thing. So because Christ is a person, our knowledge is personally growing. He's not a list of things. He's a person.

And so are we. And that's a good thing. It sounds from the little I know about Barth, would Barth be kind of the main modern advocates of this kind of approach to theology? Or is that something different? So, I mean, yes and no. Barth's real complicated, right? So anybody who, like, starts the party,

I think, like, whoever's the lightning rod that begins something, we all look at later and we're like, you know, you said some things that were helpful, but some other things not so much. So, like, Luther is that kind of guy. So Luther's the lightning rod that kind of kicks off the Reformation.

But we look at him later and we're like, Luther, you were cool about those few things, but the Lord bless you. You made some boo-boos along the way. And so I kind of have a similar view on Barth. So Barth is kind of the guy in the 20th century who starts this Trinitarian Christocentric revival. He brings that back to the forefront of theological discussion. And in that way, some of the things that he says, you're like, I'm not sure that you did that right. And he actually breaks some of his own rules along the way, because Barth's rhetoric is cyclical and repetitive, and he's not trying to do linear argumentation for, for good reason. Like he has reasons for that, but that just makes Bart very challenging to interpret in a lot of ways

because he's, he's doing, Bart's the only one who does things like Bart. So just given everything you're saying, you know, getting into Bart and stuff and how he kind of kicked off this movement, who are some of your most influential theologians, dead or alive and maybe people who have shaped your thinking? Yeah, I mean, it would be kind of disingenuous if I didn't at least start with T.F. Torrance, Thomas Torrance. I just finished my dissertation in his thought. So right now, my brain is very kind of Torrentian influenced at the very least.

I'm not Torrentian, but influenced. So Torrance is writing the last half of the 20th century, because you aren't familiar. He studied under Barth. So Barth has a significant influence in his thinking. He's Scottish. But like what I love about Torrance is that he writes in a way that he really loves God. Like I really believe that he loves Jesus. And he really cares about the church. So he makes a few significant decisions in his life where he has opportunity, like Bart offered him his position when he retired. Um, and Torrance turned it down and stayed in to church, serve the church in Scotland, which is pretty phenomenal. Um, and so he's, he's very committed to his context. Um, and he grew up as an MK in China. So he has this like. Wow.

Grained in him. And so he thought he was going to be a missionary when he grew up and the Lord changed his path and became a theologian. So I'm like, I feel you. So Torrance and I are tight in that. But what Torrance has taught me, I think most predominantly is that like Jesus Christ really is the centerpiece of the Christian faith. the centerpiece of the Christian faith. And I think that's my biggest takeaway from having spent so much time with Torrance is that, no, the Lord Jesus Christ as divine and human, the hypostatic union sits at the center of everything in Christianity. And I'm very grateful for that tutoring under him because he's right. Jesus really is the centerpiece of the Christian faith.

And it really is significant that he's fully human and fully divine. And everything that we do comes out of that, that God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever believes in him might not perish, but have eternal life. And Torrance just does that over like hundreds of works and 50 years of engagement in his career. And so that's all that I say, that Christocentric way of thinking is deeply influential for me and has been influential for me, um, in this last season of life. And there are others like Calvin's influential for me. I think Calvin's been very helpful, um, in a lot of ways in my thinking and developing, um, yeah,

a pattern of theological thought. But I think the next most influential are just like my people here at Southeastern are probably so like we have Torrance and then my life here with the theologians. So like Keith Whitfield was my major professor and thinking about his work and mission and theology. Steve McKinnon was my second reader. I spent a lot of time with him and he did his PhD under Ian Torrance. And so there's some level of engagement with there. And then, uh, and just them being constant conversation partners with me and developing me. And then the next, the last is probably a tie between like Irenaeus and Athanasius. Like the statistics have like a huge influence on the way that I think. And so it'd be disingenuous not to be like, man, you know, Irenaeus, he says

a good stuff. I like that like that guy um so he's deeply influential in the way that i think that's fast i mean i i mean i've done minuscule work in like the early fathers um the little i have read i actually read a decent amount in origins works and you know i grew up like origin the allegorist you know and you know couldn't handle the literalness of the bible whatever and he castrated himself, apparently. But, man, he was so deep and exegetical, and I read huge chunks, not huge, but chunks of Origen without him just allegorizing everything away. It's just so funny, like, these presuppositions we have of people, but I was just really blown away, and his just faithfulness, And yeah, Irenaeus too,

the little I read, I mean, profound theological thinker. I mean, this guy was doing serious theological work, obviously not far removed from the New Testament. What is it about Irenaeus that draws you to him? He's doing this, Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the Christian faith. He's the centerpiece of the text of the scriptures. And then he's exegeting that kind of across his theological works and then responding, it's like against heresies, and then responding to challenges to that and giving these very clear, helpful articulations about what it means to be Christian. And like, that's driving a lot of what I do, this Trinitarian Christian centric work, like the centerpiece of everything we do is what does it mean to be Christian? It's not how do you say all the right things about every possible thing that you might think.

But like what does it mean to be Christian? Which is really important to me because, you know, we live in a context that everything's really fractured and polarized right now. Like everybody's fighting about everything all the time. And we throw around words like heresy or a heretic, like very flippantly. And one of the things that I learned from reading Irenaeus is that word means something. And there are moments that people are heretics because they've forsaken the Christian faith. But those moments aren't every moment that we do. That's a model for an and Athanasius does this,

and Torrance too in his work, he's an ecumenist, like the good kind. And so he has this heart that we might be united in the faith around our common Christian faith, even with our differences. And like, that's okay. Like they're just face for us, confessionally Baptist with no reservations for that.

But I can see myself as united to my Presbyterian Anglican brothers and sisters, even though we may disagree on tertiary matters, because we're really committed to Christ that God has revealed himself in Christ, that we are reconciled to God in Christ. And Irenaeus begins to model some of that. Like this really is the centerpiece of the Christian faith. And I'm very grateful for that. It's a good tutor in the 21st century for us. You mentioned in the kind of turbulent, polarized times we're living in, what's it like at Southeastern?

Each church has its own kind of context and challenges. I'm sure each educational institution has the last year, year and a half, four years. Has it been like, what's it like? How do you guys handle the polarized cultural climate we're living in? Yeah. The MO, the modus operandi at Southeastern is to be a peacemaker. And I've said several times that it you know, it is a contentious world. There are a lot of disagreements. There are people who are frustrated at Southeastern. There are people who are celebrating Southeastern. Certainly we've lived our fair share of tension in a lot of different ways, but I very much appreciate that the way the institution positions itself is,

look, we are committed doctrinally, but we're peacemakers. Like we're not here to fuel this fire. We're here to be committed Christians. We're committed to the text of the scripture. We're committed to Orthodox doctrine, but like we actually want to be about the mission. And so because we're such a missional institution, being a peacemaker in contentious environments and

then sending and cooperating together for the mission becomes the orienting point for what we do as an institution which is great because we kind of keep our hands out of picking fights we don't need to be picked okay um we're just doing the thing like we're just going to do the thing yeah now yeah you um what's your official title? You're the director of the THM, the THM program. Yeah. Okay. So I have a couple of titles. So I serve as the director of the THM program and the associate director of the PhD program here at Southwestern. Now are you the first female in that role or in, I read on the website that you have a first female something something credentials to your cv yeah yeah yeah so i am the first woman to serve in these positions um kind of academic i'm not the first

one to serve in academic administration south east okay to serve in this uh the advanced degree side of the house which has been great and then i'll also be the first woman to graduate with a PhD in theology. The first one to be with a PhD in theology. If I can ask, what's it been like being a female scholar in a Southern Baptist context? And I know we talked offline that the Southern Baptist context of Southeastern is a bit different than maybe other people's perception of when they hear Southern Baptist. They might have a certain view of what that means, but my understanding is the brand of Southern Baptist approach to Christianity is slightly maybe different at Southeastern.

Yeah, no doubt. A rough ride being a female in a largely male-dominated world? Yeah, no, I mean, it's a great question. And I will say, this is like the most common question. Like every moment I step outside of Southeastern, I always end up being like pulled into dark corners with hushed tones of like, what's it really like? Um, which I'm happy to do. Like I'm more than happy to have the conversation.

When I told my story coming in, like the reason that I decided to pursue an advanced degree was because the faculty at Southeastern pulled me aside and said, Hey, Christy, you're uniquely gifted. Have you thought about doing a PhD? Um, so they kind of started this whole program and, and, um, yeah, so I was always welcomed and always valued. I think the clearest pictures that I can give about how positive my experience has been here as a woman in advanced degrees is to say, so one, I came into Southeastern with my own set of wounds from my past and other environments connected to my tradition that I wasn't that I, that my gifts of knowledge and teaching and leadership were viewed as threats sometimes. Um, and that wasn't always super positive, uh, in my personal experience. So I kind of walked into Southeastern with some wounds from that. Um, and my experience in the PhD at Southeastern, not only didn't add to those wounds or cause harm, but actually has been a healing

experience for me. Like this has been a space for me to recover and restore with really meaningful relationships with my male peers in the PSU program and with the faculty at Southeastern. Like I said earlier, I studied under Keith Whitfield. He's the provost now here at Southeastern and he's phenomenal. And I think some of my just personal interactions with him have been healing. So that's one. And then the other pieces. So, you know, everyone, I don't know if you experienced this in your PhD, but most people, when they start a PhD, feel some version of imposter syndrome. They're like, I'm not sure if I deserve to be here. I'm just waiting for them to find out that I'm a sham.

They're like, I'm not sure if I deserve to be here. I'm just waiting for them to find out that I'm a sham. And then that like statistically becomes exponentially more difficult when there's no one on the table that looks like you. Right. So. So I for sure dealt with imposter syndrome. Nobody looks like me. I don't deserve to be here. And the point that that switched for me was when I like looked around the table with my peers and I realized that like they heard me like they were asking me questions they were asking me theological questions and I was speaking and like I learned that I had a voice because they heard me um and like that was transformative for me and my kind of path to become a scholar um so I've had a phenomenally positive experience. And even when I defended my PhD,

man, it was such a gift because people were celebrating with me from all over, all over the Southern Baptist Convention. I think I counted that there were like faculty members or administrators at like six different Baptist-associated institutions that were celebrating that I finished my PhD, like on social media or even personally reaching out to have those conversations. Everybody's super excited. The president pulled me aside here, Dr. Aiken, gave me a big hug and he's like, we're so proud of you.

And so like, it's a real gift to be at Southeastern. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing if it weren't for that ministry. And I could not be more grateful, to be honest. And I hope you don't, I'm not trying to represent, like say all the right things. This just really is. It really has been phenomenal. No, your story is your story. I remember, I think Karen actually said largely the same thing,

that she hasn't felt kind of looked down upon for being a woman in, you know, more intellectual spaces. But I, you know, I've talked to others that said, no, like when I go to a, I don't know, do you go to ETS? I don't know. I do. So I, you know, I've heard some, um, I won't name any names. I'm kind of blank. Well, I know one right now that says, yeah, whenever I go to ETS, it's kind of like, oh,

are you here with your husband? You know? And, and even then, like, you know, if they're in a conversation, like with another guy, like it's always the guy asking another guy the question it's just kind of subtle and sometimes people don't don't even maybe realize it it's just a culture we were nurtured in that you just kind of bypass the the woman standing there and and you know ask for the man's opinion and um yeah but then some people say no i haven't experienced that or maybe i have and i haven't noticed it and for others it's a big deal you know everybody's story is really different so right and i have experienced that

at ets to the point i tongue in cheek i love ets i'm very grateful for it i have a lot of supportive people there but i do keep a tally of how many times i'm assumed to be the wife of the man i happen to be talking to or am asked so are you here with your husband uh and i just like i'm happy to just let that roll off and not pick a fight about it. Like I just, just kind of my personality is all right, that's fine. We have a cultural context. It's complicated. We'll see if we can shape it better for the future.

But the fact that it is what it is, I don't have to be upset about that all the time. That's good. Well, Christy, we have a few more minutes, but you mentioned before we hit record that you had some questions for me, I think. Do you have any? Yeah. So here's my, my one question, just kind of a more practical level. And you've, you've kind of played with this a little bit in your own, uh, in, in this conversation too, but you always just kind of end up being a spot where you're dealing with controversial issues.

Yeah. Um, and I think handle that relatively well, man, I just be curious, because we do live in an environment where people are angry all like all the time. And so for you to be kind of talking about controversial issues in a context that's so polarized and so angry, and like, when the reason we're angry is really complicated, the pandemic has had a significant impact on us emotionally in a way that I don't think we're aware. back on us emotionally in a way that I don't think we're aware, um, just yet. But anyway, I'd just be curious, like how, what are your kind of guidelines for the way that you navigate that? What's your way that you approach? Um, or, or if someone wanted to do that, like what kind of advice would you give them? Man? Yeah. So I would say that's a great question. I get this question quite a bit. I feel like I'm getting it more and more probably because things are getting more polarized and people are getting more hurt and frustrated. And, you know, so I, um, I've got several things I want to say. I'm trying to think of the organization. Number one, one of the benefits, the lasting benefits of being kind of raised in a more conservative fundamentalist environment was this

kind of like, I remember at seminary, they would tell us like, don't be a pastor. If you could do anything else, don't go into ministry. Ministry is 80 hours a week. People are going to hate you. All this like this dark, dreary portrait of ministry. But if you are called, then you need to believe it. And you have an audience of one. That kind of, you know, rah-rah, you know? Yeah. But I still have that spirit. Like, I feel like I try to, I work extra, extra hard at being, doing thorough research

before I try to voice an opinion on controversial stuff. I try to be really slow to form views so that the views I form are rooted, you know? I try to be really slow to form views so that the views I form are rooted. I try to look at the other side, twist the view as much as I can and in my mind, look at it from all angles so that if I'm going to go public saying, um, um, helps me to, you know, when the, when the arrows start to get thrown at me. Um, also if you really think about where is all the anger, vitriol, this stuff, it's 98% is on social media. So I am wise in how I use that. I've deleted apps from my phone.

I feel like, I think it was four years ago when I made a decision not to interact with people on social media with controversial stuff. I mean, people could say, I heard you think two plus two equals five. What do you say about that? I won't even correct them. I will just, I won't even, you know, sometimes I might like it just to have fun or whatever.

But I just, I try to pay little, little, little attention to social media. I assume that every social media account is a Russian robot unless they prove otherwise. Um, so like if, if it's, if they're using dehumanizing rhetoric, I assume that's not even human. So like, don't, don't think too much of it. Um, and I just don't, I just spend such little of my existence on social media. And then I find out that it's like, there's not my neighbors, you know, I coach my son's baseball team and nobody hates me there. Nobody throws stuff at me. I'm just a baseball coach, you know, and I want my neighborhood. Nobody has, you know, it's like, I just, if you just live in your embodied space,

I feel like things aren't as hostile as they are in this kind of pseudo Twitter world. So yeah, even people that I maybe have had more attacks from on social media, I've had the opportunity of coming face-to-face with some of these people at different events I speak at. It's night and day difference. It cordial it's nice it's i think people just they just say stuff on social media that's just they never would face to face you know so um and oftentimes if somebody does i i do i've come to understand that my very presence and the views that I hold are representative or a reminder of a lot of legitimate pain in people's lives. And part of my life mission is to try to change that, right?

So if somebody lashes out at me or it just goes after me, I just try to look past that a little bit and like, well, there's probably a lot of legitimate pain there that I'm sorry. It's probably somebody that maybe even looked like me or acted like me or talk like me probably did a lot of damage in your life. And I'm a legitimate trigger. And I'm just, all I can do is try to help change that culture and not take it personally, you know? Um, and then, you know, it was actually Karen that said a few years ago, she told me that, you know, the, the trolls on Twitter, you know, she blocks or mutes most of them, but then she says, I keep a few as pets. Cause it's funny. Cause I don't think that they don't even realize that they know that I've kept them as pets that I, you know,

some of their accusations are so, it's almost like they come full circle. They're so bizarre that it's like almost humorous. And it's like, it's like a, it's a weird source of entertainment for me to kind of, it's almost like I'm looking at like a psychological experience. Somebody can say something so outrageous. It's like, wow, it's fascinating.

You know, like it's, it's like a, it's like a learning experience for me of, of human nature. So, um, just try not to take myself too seriously, I guess, too. Like, you know, I'm trying the hardest to love God, love people. I'm failing every day, but that's, I hope that at the end of the day, Jesus will say, well done. You know, I mean, it's all I can do. So that's a long answer. Sorry. I mean, I needed that therapy to kind of like, I'm happy to listen. And I have been encouraged by your work doing this. I don't think we've talked about this, but your book, people to be loved. It's like very helpful in my context.

Like I was assigned as one of my PhD seminar books. So we had to read in our doctrine of humanity. Wow. Yeah. So we read that in our PhD seminar. And then from there, when I have people who kind of asked me questions about this, I'm like, Hey, this might be a helpful introduction for you to begin thinking about it. You don't have to agree with all the conclusions he has. I'm sure I could pick a fight with Preston about some stuff if I wanted to, but this text is really helpful. And so like, I'm grateful. And, and what my, my advice to them is like, even if you disagree with it, like this tone is really helpful. Like this is a good way for us to have this conversation because it is a loving conversation about doctrine, which is doctrinal. Um, and, and that's valuable. And so I'd always say, thank you for,

for the work that you do in that. And that book in particular has, has been helpful. Oh, that's all I know. No idea, but yeah, thank you. Yeah. And what you said is, I think, super important that the tone I've learned over the years in this conversation, the sexuality gender conversation, but other controversial topics that that tone. to your original point at the beginning of the podcast, that is part of, that's wrapped up in our belief doctrinal experience, right? Is things like tone and posture and character and how we talk about it and so on. Yeah. It matters who you are. Like it really does. Like it matters who you are, not just that you say the right things. Yeah, that's good. But I hope you say the right things too. Big fan. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah well christy where can people find uh your work if people like man i want to get to know christy a little more where can uh where would you direct them yeah so i mean i'm i've only done so much but uh my twitter feed's a good starting

place for to follow along with what i'm doing so my twitter handle is at christy elise c-h-r-I-S-T-Y-E-L-I-S on Twitter is probably the best way to follow. Cool. And then you have a page on the Southeastern site, I'm sure. Yeah, I do. I mean, I have a couple of pages that I come up administratively. So you're welcome to do that. Or you can always shoot me an email at cthornton at s-e-b-t-s dot e-b-t-s. Give it up your email.

I'm happy to do it. Bring it on. Bring it on. I love it. Well, Christy, thanks. I mean to do it bring it on bring it on i love it well christy thanks i mean my email's available on the website that's true yeah yeah that always trips me out when i'm going like with somebody especially people like have a really high profile and i go to the like academic website i'm like their emails right there or pastors of like mega churches and their emails right there which that's not always the case, but yeah. Well, Christy, it was really great talking to you and getting to know you. So thank you for, I just love your spirit, your work and, and, um, hope, uh, God continues to, um, give you many kingdom opportunities as he seems to be doing. So thanks for being on Theology in a Row.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. you