Theology in the Raw - 872: Christian, Black, Latino, and Married to a Palestinian: Eli Bonilla Jr.

Episode Date: June 3, 2021

Eli is the real deal. He not only understands the race conversation. He embodies it. In this episode, we talk about all things related to race, ethnicity, the church, and America, and we also discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the Middle East.  Eli is an emerging leader in the Next Gen space. He serves several national networks in varied roles. He is the Next Gen Regional Co-Chair for North America with Empowered21, and he also fills the position of National Millennial Director for the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference (NHCLC). His full time responsibilities are with OneHope as a Masters Fellow Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today Eli Bonilla Jr., who is an emerging leader in the NextGen space. He's the NextGen regional co-chair for North America with Empower21, and he also fills the position of National Millennial Director for the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. His full-time responsibilities are with One Hope as a master's fellow. I came across Ellie earlier this year in two different venues, an Axiom gathering and also at the Q Ideas conference in Nashville a couple months ago. And each time I heard Ellie spoke, he just lit up the room, as I say in the intro of this podcast. I mean, I was so impressed with his character,

his humility, his wisdom, his passion. And I'm like, dude, I have to get this guy on the podcast. So I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation. We talk a lot about race, and he brings an interesting background to the race conversation, as you will hear. We also spend a bit of time talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict going on, or that at the time of recording, we're a few days out, or we're a few days past a ceasefire, but this is obviously one of many flare-ups that happens. It seems like it happens quite often over the last, I don't know, maybe 2,, but, um, uh, Ellie is married to a, uh, Palestinian woman, um, half Palestinian. And so his wife brings an interesting perspective to that conversation.

And, and I just, I learned a ton. I learned a ton from this conversation. Every time Ellie speaks, I learn a lot. So if you would like to support this podcast, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, support the show for as little as five bucks a month and become part of the theology in the raw community. Without further ado, let's welcome to the show for the first time, hopefully not the last time, the one and only Ellie Bonilla Jr. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here with a new friend, Ellie Bonilla. Ellie and I, we have met a couple times at similar venues where we've spoken at, and both times, Ellie, man, I was just so blown away at your talk.

The first time I was like, all right, is this guy a one-hit wonder? You blew me away with that talk at Axiom. And then at Q, you just lit the stage on fire. I mean, and I mean that not just because rhetorically you're gifted. Because I'll hear some people rhetorically like, man, they're good on stage. But if you really think about what they're saying, I'm like, nah, it's just kind of fluff. Like they're good on stage, but I'm not sure if their heads are, like if their minds are really, you know, matching up to the rhetorical flair. But dude, you knocked both out of the park.

You challenged us intellectually and just your manner of presentation was just mind-blowing. So, Ellie, thanks so much for being on Theology in a Row, man. Thanks, man. Man, Preston, it's an honor to be speaking with you. Likewise, you're navigating such treacherous waters within the church right now. And I know me and you, we had a conversation, I think it was after our talk, it was like at lunch. And I was like, man, you know, between you and I, what we're talking about right now, like talking about the iron is hot, like the

iron is like molten lava in both of our conversations., just to be able to talk with you, see how you, uh, likewise have navigated so well, uh, your conversation that you're having, uh, it's just great to, uh, to jump in, uh, on a conversation with you. Thanks. So, uh, yeah, we definitely don't pick the easy ones, but why don't we, um, well, let's step back, tell, tell us your story, story, who you are, where you came from. And then I do want to get into the race conversation because you have a, just by nature of your background, have a unique approach to it. And I think we'll see why that is in a second.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So my background, my parents are immigrants. I'm the son of immigrant parents. My mother from the Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo, she moved to New Jersey when she came with her family. My grandfather was a minister, so he came for religious reasons, came, planted a church in Passaic, New Jersey, thriving church for all of his life while he was here. My father, likewise, moved to the United States, but from Mexico. He was born in Nogales, grew up in Mexico City. They both moved here around the age of 12 years old. So fairly young, going into their teen years here in the United States. They met in Cleveland, Tennessee at Lee University, which is also the place that I met my wife

at Lee University and her parents met each other at Lee University. So yeah, my children are predestined to meet their spouses at Lee, I guess, eventually. But they met in Tennessee, moved out to Los Angeles where my father got his master's at Fuller Theological Seminary out there. So I was born in Los Angeles, but I was eventually raised in Texas, San Antonio. And so, yeah, man, I am just a wide range of cultures. And even within the U.S., you know, my mother moving to the Northeast, my father, Texas, but me being born in California, that's, uh, that's quite a wide range of, uh, of who I guess I was born to be. I didn't get to choose any of that. So that's the part of the story that I didn't get to choose.

Right. Like, and so I have this mixed kid, um, you born in L.A., but actually raised in South Texas in a predominantly Mexican context or I would say Mexican and Tex-Mex context. I believe that San Antonio is like the area is one point nine million. Out of that is like 65 percent Latino Hispanic population. It's a huge Hispanic population, but not many that look like myself. Yeah. But my father is, you know, full Mexican. He became a local church pastor in the inner city on the immigrant side of the city, the southeast side. And so, yeah, I grew up around Hispanics, Latinos. Our church was majority Spanish. It started as an all-Spanish church. It eventually now has an Spanish church. Uh, it eventually, uh, now has

an English expression, but we're like an inverted mega church where we're a big Spanish church with an English expression. You got an English, English ministry that meets, you know, two in the afternoon and then English speaking. Yeah. No, no, that, that's I would describe it. And the English service is now thriving and it's been over a decade that the English service has existed. And, you know, and it's a great service. I got a chance to serve alongside of him as his English pastor in the last four years or so. in the last four years or so. Um, and so, yeah, it's been the, the cultural, the ethnic conversation in America from my lens, uh, has definitely come from, uh, more of the Latino perspective. And then I married a Palestinian American, uh, and I'm sure, you know, I, as I mentioned in my talk that that has brought a, an interesting dynamic as well to our house, uh, especially in recent weeks, especially in recent weeks yeah yeah especially in recent weeks yeah and and so that's yeah that's a little bit about uh my background she's not half

jewish is she because that would really complete the complete the circle no she is not uh she isn't half uh jewish uh but uh i mean it's it's already enough of a conversation yeah it's like one side or the other right help us understand i mean because i i mean this sounds bad but because i follow base i'm a huge baseball fan i understand kind of the black dominican you know yeah um you know you see a guy who just you think he's straight up african-american whatever then he starts speaking in spanish and you're like whoa you know what the deal um so is is there a different like is there culturally for like an african-american experience versus a black dominican experience are there obviously there's gonna be similarities are there what are the differences there if you can speak into that yeah i uh i would i would first say that um

whenever we talk about right it's like the understanding between race and ethnicity, right? The differences between that. And I mean, even listening to your talks and you kind of explaining the difference between sex and gender. Yeah. And how it's used linguistically now and the definitions that have shifted. And if you ask different people, I think that race and ethnicity are being used interchangeably and that's shouldn't be the case. And I think that that, um, is actually harmful to the conversation. Um, because race, when we talk about race, we're talking about physical

distinctions, right? So like I can be black and I have African descent, uh, but I'm not African-American because my ethnicity, I don't I don't share that that common ethnic background as the African-Americans do. And and mind you, I mean, we're even when we talk about the African-American culture, I mean, they completely they're disconnected from the African continent. They share a history here, you know, the history of slavery and then Jim Crow and then kind of that history. The Dominicans, the Dominican background, it's Hispanic in origin, right? Spanish speaking, Española. We have similar histories, slavery still from the Spanish colonies. That's 1511, you know, and we kind of have our own historical deal there. So I'm racially black, but I'm ethnically Latino. Okay. Right. And so I guess where, where the distinctives like come into play is that like, uh, when, when we talk

about, uh, people profiling me, people are not, they're profiling what they see. So they'll profile me by my race. But the way that I relate with other people internally, I relate through my ethnicity, through my heritage, my upbringing, my culture, the shared language that I share with my family at home or even my church. And so that's, I think, where the distinctive stuff happens when it goes below the surface of the skin. So tell me out here. And by the way, I tend to ask just really genuine questions. So if I say something, even a word or something that isn't the best word to use,

let me know. I'm not. I'm just learning, right? I've typically have steered away from using race and using ethnicity way more, unless I actually mean race. So I talk about multi-ethnic churches or even ethnic reconciliation more than racial reconciliation. It seems that the ethnic piece is more holistic, more... See here, can I say significant? I don't want to downplay the significance of race, but it seems like it's primarily ethnic tensions

that need to be kind of reconciled and resolved. Would you recommend me keep doing that, like using ethnicity more than race? Or would you say no? No, I think that's fair. No, I think that's totally fair. I think when the Bible talks about humanity, it talks about it in terms of ethnos, it talks about in terms of ethnicity, heritages, different languages, right? So it is very specific about, you know, the cultures that we do share, and that that falls more in the that's the ethnic category. And I think for me, when we talk about race, the reason that we have to talk about race and the reason that I got really pulled into it in 2020 is like, hey, look, I've been Latino my whole life. I've always identified as Latino, but this was the first time that I actually I embraced identifying myself as black. Right. Yeah. And in that, that's because, right, the tendency, the prejudice that comes with looking at someone on the outside and prejudging them.

OK. Right. Before you even get to the ethnic conversation. Now, if you want to have a deep conversation that the ethnic conversation is the holistic conversation of that. But it's like, you, you still do have to press through that shallow prejudice, um, race conversation that exists. And that is that, that is all intertangled. Uh, because the reality is like, if you saw my cousins in New Jersey, you would think that they're African-American. And so if, uh, let's just say they, they were, um, they had a run in with, with somebody that, uh, perceived them a certain type of way, uh, and, and discriminated against them, or, you know, I know a lot of, uh, when, when we talk about police brutality and profiling and all of that, you know, they're getting pulled over,

they're getting pulled over because they're black. They're not getting questioned. Wait, but are you Dominican? Are you Jamaican? Are you African American? Those questions aren't being asked. And so that's a race motivated prejudice because it's just a surface conversation. But I think when you talk about kingdom and you want to go deep and you want to have a holistic conversation, the one that the Bible outlines, ethnicity to me is the conversation. That's super helpful. That's super helpful. Do you see tensions between the Latino culture, Latino people, and African Americans? I mean, have you experienced some of that? Like I, so I was raised in LA too. And I know at least in like South Central, it's that that's the, some of those tensions are really significant. Um, I grew up in Fresno,

which there, it, yeah, there, there was definitely, you know, I mean, there's a lot more, um, Hispanics than, than, um, African-Americans-americans but the the i'm just trying i'm thinking back to my childhood now they're definitely pretty segregated like it they didn't mesh too well have you experienced as somebody who is embodied um yeah have you have you seen tensions there or yeah um especially being for me being being mixed. Right. So my mother is is the Dominican. So if you see her, she's a black woman. And it kind of got brought up in.

We did kind of like a city council meeting after George Floyd. I think every major city did one to talk about race relations within the city. major city did one to talk about race relations within the city. We did one where one of the bishops on the east side of San Antonio brought leaders, Christian leaders from around San Antonio together. A majority of them were African-American there, but we had Hispanic leaders. We had Anglo leaders there. The chief of police was there, you know, various officials. And, uh, my, my parents were there as well. And they had an open mic open forum. My mother gets up and she says, I'm confused on whether or not I'm allowed to be mad right now, because we feel like we're not allowed to be as upset as African-Americans, even though I've had to tell my son and raise my son to act certain

ways in certain environments, in certain neighborhoods. And now when this is blowing up, uh, I feel like I'm confused on where I stand. Am I accepted or am I not? And it kind of reminded me of a time in middle school where, uh, because I look racially more African than I do Mexican, I almost don't look Mexican at all. People don't believe me when I'm like, I'm Mexican, like very Mexican, too. But so when Hurricane Katrina happened, we had an influx of African Americans from from New Orleans in that area, moving to San Antonio, a lot still there to this day. And so in that influx in middle school, I kind of had a choice to make as kind of like a mixed kid, a Latino kid, but I didn't look like the Latinos in my school because they were Mexican.

I had a choice to make between the two, right? And lot of my growing up a lot of the n-word that was thrown my way or black boy or all that came from uh the tex-mex mexican side okay uh of the community and so it gravitated me towards the african-american side and so even my taste in music and my you know my i loved hip-hop like like that was even my taste in music and my, you know, my, I loved hip hop. Like, like that was just my thing. I related more with my Dominican cousins in New Jersey, even though I saw them less than I saw my Mexican cousins. And my favorite player was Alan Iverson, you know, and Carmelo Anthony. And I, I had corn, dude, I had corn rolls. I had twisties. I had an Afro. I had every, like, if you go and look pictures up, I'm like dressed in Jordans, everything. Um, and, and so, yeah,

it was, it was odd, um, you know, growing up in that environment. And I think that for the first time, even with George Floyd, I think I fully like came to my senses and like oh my gosh this is this is very complex because I'm not African-American but oh my but I when I see George Floyd I see family members of my own and and yeah I do have this Latino conversation that I am still very much a part of because then I see you you know, what's happening in the border crisis and I could see my dad's side of the family in that. And so that it has been like, what permission do I have to speak into these various conversation as I'm mixed, as I racially look one way, but I'm ethnically another way?

Where do I find myself in that conversation? So it's been complicated. You've referenced it a few times. How would you, I mean, reflect on the last year or so, which, you know, that is such almost like a white way of framing it as if all this stuff is a year old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you you know, I mean, it definitely had, the tensions have been exacerbated for various reasons. Right. And it sounds like you've, you know, have really thought through that and experienced it.

Like you said, when you saw George Floyd, you feel like a piece of you was there. And, you know, the audience listening now is going to be, I mean, more than 50% white, I assume, but a fairly mixed audience. But for people who are primarily for white people who are trying to understand, like, man, I really do want to understand what your mom said. Am I allowed to be angry right now? Just the, yeah yeah how this last

year especially has affected people of color like help us help us understand that what's going on and what's going on in your heart the last year oh man it's like which part of me are you asking yeah uh but that's you know that's that's a part of it. I had mentioned this in the talk that I feel that I have a visitor's pass to every conversation. Like I'm allowed in for a certain amount of time or I'm allowed in for a certain amount of like distance that I could travel into the conversation. Right. Because, you know, I think that it was a in 2020 at, towards the beginning was a moment of solidarity, especially amongst people of color. But, um, you would, you would be so, so for, for example, the Latino, the Latino is not monolithic. I think everyone knows that Latino, uh, Hispanics are not monolithic. We are every race under the sun. We just share a common language

or come from a common country, right? So every country even has its own racial demographic. So for example, the difference in the racial demographic of Dominican Republic and Mexico, completely different, right? You go to Dominican Republic, you'll you'll see a lot more African descent than you will in Mexico. But Mexico, you'll have a lot of indigenous descent. Both have their European expressions, but there are distinctions there. And so when when we came to the race conversation, a lot of the questions surrounding that conversation from the Latino community was from the various pockets that say, OK, yes, there's injustice there. But what about us? So whenever I posted about BLM, I would get pushback from the Mexican community that were around me, not everyone in the Mexican community, but the ones that were around me of saying, but what about us? What about the migrant fields? What about the undocumented immigrant? What about DACA? What,

you know, what about the splitting up of families? What about, you know, and, and all of a sudden I'm getting, and I'm like, oh, but that is completely true too, because I've, I've been with those kids. Like I visited some of those centers where those children that come in the caravans or trying to get snuck across and that get caught in the system, get caught on the borders and then are, are bust throughout the nation on, in undisclosed places. As we kind of figure this situation, like I'm so exposed to that as well. And so as like, even as big of a shock as 2020 was with the George Floyd situation, there was a part of me that was like, but what about us? And so as that ethno-turf war within me started to rage, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm tearing myself apart. gosh, I'm, I'm tearing myself apart. And now I'm having, I'm getting rocks thrown for me from all angles because then I'm not going hard enough for BLM or I'm not going hard enough for the immigrant

or you're not, you know, Latino enough. You were born in the United States. You don't speak Spanish well enough. You're not our representative or, you know, like all of a sudden I'm getting stones thrown from liberals, conservatives, everybody, because I'm trying to figure out my own identity. It's like I'm Buzz Lightyear. I'm falling with style. Right. That that's my my type of flying is falling with style. And so I'm falling with style in this conversation and dodging as much as I can. And the more that I, that I started to, to dive in, the less I was attracted to these ethnocentric conversations, these very focused conversations, at least as my participation and trying to see like, well, okay,

we need a standard. What's the standard? The standard is heaven. And so what is a glimpse into that standard? And I had mentioned it, it was Revelation 7, 9, where before the throne room, it says that every nation, the word being there, ethnos, was before the throne room. God, and you talk a lot about this in your work when you talk about the body and just the sacredness of the body. And I thought that it was so interesting that when we go into eternity, we keep our ethnicity. Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

Like we get to keep our language. It says every tribe, language, ethno. So that's interesting that at the end, when we're before the throne room and we're all dressed in white as one body and one people, God's people, that it still speaks about the distinctions. And so more and more as I've gone into this conversation, broader and broader has my perspective become and trying to grapple what's a healthy multi-ethnic conversation. Man, there's so many directions we can go. How have you seen the church handle this conversation? I mean, I asked that because it does seem that the broader cultural conversation has dominated the conversation.

And I've seen a lot of churches, leaders kind of speak out, typically around things like CRT, right? I mean, all these statements about why this is so evil and everything. And that's a discussion that needs to be had, I think. We don't exist in a vacuum as a church, but I've seen fewer people ask the question, what does the gospel have to say about the vision you just referred to, this multi-ethnic vision that is there from beginning to end and is really, I would say, a primary thread of the biblical story is ethnic reconciliation. And you see it come to a head in Ephesians 2, where you have this vertical reconciliation with God, right? That we are saved by grace, grace through faith,

and we love the quote Ephesians 2.8, but then the rest of the chapter is that there's this and we love the quote Ephesians 2.8, but then the rest of the chapter is that there's this beautiful ethnic reconciliation, Jew and Gentile, that was a significant point of the cross. It's just there in the text and people get nervous when you bring things like social justice too close to the gospel. But I'm like, well, then take it up with Paul. I think he did that in several of his letters. As you look at Big C Church, do you feel like there's good, healthy conversations going on? Are you hopeful? Are you discouraged or all of the above? Oh, man. You know what? I've realized that the church in America is very complex. It's very complex. There's a lot of conversations happening. And so I even hesitate and I get worried even of capital C church here

in the United States, just because I'm like, but I've been in so many great conversations, but then I've also been in so many tone-deaf conversations. But they're happening simultaneously. Something that I've been more and more attuned to as I've progressed within this conversation is something that I work at an organization called One Hope. And I'm sure that if you're not familiar, Preston, with One Hope, a very global organization. And one thing that our president often reminds us of is, hey, you know God's a genius, right? And I think that, you know, when I try to run into this complex situation and try to solve it or one group tries to solve it or this group tries to solve it or this group feels like they're the authority on it. As I told you, I'm like, well, I feel like I'm in a million conversations and everyone's saying they're the expert in it. But I do have this faith in the Holy Spirit talking to all of us. Right. Because? Because even when you fast forward in Ephesians,

I think it's Ephesians chapter four, and Paul goes down the list, like there's one faith, there's one baptism, there's one God, and we're all one body. And I really don't believe that, I believe culture is confused in this conversation, but I believe that those that have an ear to hear spiritually right now are hearing something. And so I think the ones that are handling it well right now are the church's engagement in this conversation by how culture has either canceled them or reacted to them as an institution.

Yeah. Because I do think that sometimes as other churches or other people within Christianity, we're judging whether or not the church is doing a good job by the rubric of how culture has reacted to the church's engagement on the conversation. And I just don't think that that's a great rubric to start with, because that's not the rubric we'll be graded on when we get into eternity. So I don't know if we'll, that just to kind of give a foundation. So I'm curious too about, because I mean, your parents are immigrants, both of them, right? I mean, because again, I'm asking, this is a question I've heard that, you know, if you have somebody of color who's like an immigrant, oftentimes that brings a whole different perspective, let alone the different ethnic backgrounds that they bring in. But the fact that first-generation immigrants... I was talking to... Oh, what's his name? I'm blanking on his name now. Gosh. I'll just keep it generic. He's a pastor of

a multi-ethnic church, and he's got first-generation immigrants, and then you have white conservatives, and then he has African-Americans and everything. And he's got first-generation immigrants, and then you have white conservatives, and then he has African-Americans and everything. And he's like, it's weird. You have immigrants oftentimes might line up with some of the white conservatives on certain things, but they come from completely different – they're coming at it from different angles. But they might have that kind of work ethic and like, hey, you can do anything you want. This is America, you know, make the most of yourself. And if you work hard and, you know, be a good citizen, like you can make it.

Whereas some other people might have more of a, for lack of better terms, you know, like not victimhood, but just like, yeah, but do you realize the history of oppression that my people have had in this country and that that has lasting effects and that kind of like structural injustice versus personal agency conversations going on? And can you, does that at all resonate with, like, where would you, yeah, does that resonate with kind of how you look at things or? Yeah. I mean, it's, I mean, depending right of who you're talking to. I mean, some of these people are coming out of horrific situations within their country. Right. And they get here and they're like, you guys are complaining about this.

You know, this is me. Like, right. My parents are first generation immigrants. And I mean, they told my grandparents, they told me the story is communism in Dominican Republic during my grandparents' time there in Trujillo, basically trying to genocide everyone with darker skin. Right. Like recently, like in recent history, then coming to the United States and then, you know, and you just, you just have all these perspectives coming in. And I think that what, what really, and right, it murkies the waters is that it's, Hey, you guys don't know what you have because this is all, you know, right. And, and, and, and oftentimes that, that can be the case. And, and it's hard to, And oftentimes that that can be the case. And and it's hard to to have that conversation because you should see what I grew up in, because I don't believe that that's that's where the Bible comes in to empathize with people. OK, right. The Bible is not trying to pull people down to see you see things are really bad down here.

It's Jesus always telling us to lift up our eyes. It's Jesus always trying to get us to see new humanity. And whenever I, you know, I hear about, you know, my, when my parents speak about being here, they always talk about optimism. They always talk about a better life. They always, you know, they're, they're, they're always talking about, um, like you said, like, uh like a lot of what what you hear from the immigrant community is they're they're so in love with life from womb to the tomb. And now we get into the politics of the US and the Latino doesn't fit in the boxes. Right. So then we're forced to pick sides and, you know, and on various issues. And so you'll see, yeah, for sure, there's a lot of values that land within the conservative, you know, side, you know, pro-life, work hard, that whole, the whole deal. But then you'll also find Latinos on the other side, on the more progressive side that's saying, no, hey, look, there's so much injustice that's happening to our young people in the streets and the marginalizations and the various systemic structures. wow, this the whole system's broken in terms of trying to define what is true justice, true equality, because they come from places that they're like, well, you know, we didn't have some

of us didn't have any choices. Right. And so the only thing that we can see and perceive as justice is the word. And the word can't be defined by these two boxes that you guys apparently have made here and we've shown up into. And so we're trying to navigate it, you know, as you guys tell us we should navigate it. Right. So, yeah, no, that's been interesting as well. Do you have an opinion on the kind of structural injustice versus personal individual agency in terms of kind of racism in America? I mean, have you thought through that? Because I know that there's just like you said, there seems to be two polarized kind of racism in America? Have you, I mean, have you thought through that? Cause I know that there's just, like you said, there's, there seems to be two polarized kind

of perspectives that everything is structural injustice and there's, you know, this oppressor group of primarily rich white people. And then the oppressed is kind of everybody else. Um, other people say, well, no, if you, you know, uh, who has, I heard, I heard some conservative commentators say, and it was, I don't, yeah, he just said, you know, look, if you, if you do, you know, graduate high school, don't get someone pregnant, go get a job, which right now there's plenty, you know, there's many job opportunities. You're going to do fine. You may not be the richest person in the world, but you're not going to be like super poor. It's, it's personal decisions that may, you know, I'm like, okay I'm like, okay, well, again, that probably is probably one side of it. So I don't know.

I've been kind of thinking through that because I do see legitimacy in both arguments. So yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Oh, yeah. No, it's very simple for me. It's broken people make broken systems. Like that's just simple for me. It's broken people make broken systems. Like that's just it. That's just what it is. I mean, I've seen the terrible treatment of some of my friends that have been trying to get their their documents in order and just the awful process that they've had to go through. through. Um, and that is not fair because other people didn't have to, uh, go through that very, very similar process. Like some got it like, Oh, you know, they got a fast pass, like a Disney world fast pass to getting it. And then other ones they've, they've spent, one of my friends

spent $14,000 just to, um, go through the process. That's not a rare story. Other people that five, 10 years, um, other people that, you know, they, they just feel like there's no hope in that. And so, uh, when we talk about that system, man, that there there's so, there's so many issues there. Um, you know, how, how are we treating the family whenever, you know, if, when deportation exists, you know, how are we deporting people? Like, what about the kids that got brought here as minors? Right. So that system. Right. So that's one system. Then you have the other system that we talked about, you know, in terms of prejudice and discrimination and profiling that is really baked into a lot of people. I mean, I went to school in the South. I heard some stuff that I was like, you know, I'm like, I feel like I'm in a movie in the 1960s. Like,

how did that, how was that said? Like, actually, you know, like I've heard stuff. And, and from students, like younger, younger people that I'm like, oh my goodness, that was very racist. Like, that's not just like, oh, you know, I was like, oh, that's a, that that's on the line. No, that was like straight up racist and you didn't flinch. And like, you seriously believe that. And so, um, do I believe that there is systemic racism and injustice? Absolutely. Um, but do I also, um, believe that there are components of freedom that exist and, you know, that, that people really can thrive here, um, you know, regardless of their background. Yeah. There's stories of that all over the place. Um, I just think that no one, uh, has the moral high ground in either party to say,

we got the answer. I don't agree with that. Because that's not a part of my theology to ever believe that any institution that's created by man here right now could ever bring about perfect justice, could ever bring about perfect equality. That's why the church exists. The church exists to exemplify that perfect justice, that perfect equality, that perfect love that should exist in the world. And it should always challenge, regardless of political affiliation, should always challenge the broken systems. And so that's, you know, I don't know if I was skating around answering that. No, I know. You know, that's kind of where I'm starting to land, you know?

That's where I, yeah. I mean, that's where my heart has been all along. And I feel like even I got sucked in and I'm not, I don't like to pretend that I know more than I do on issues that I'm not, you know, I've got enough controversy on my plate. I'll let you handle that. But I am very, I mean, I've been interested in the race conversation for a long time now. But yeah, primarily from a multi-ethnicity in the church. And it really, I mean, it came, I don't know, talking to different people, being a listener and also just reading the Bible, just seeing how, again, how significant of a thread this is. If you add up all the verses, Paul, and I'm a Paul guy primarily, I mean, Paul addressed ethnic reconciliation more than he did justification by faith. If you just add up the words, like if you take the passages where he's really ranting

and raving about justification by faith, there's fewer words there devoted to that theme than there is to ethnic themes of ethnic reconciliation. That's just an observation, not an argument. And that doesn't mean it's therefore more important. I'm not trying to make a comparison. I'm just saying this was a big deal, a huge deal in the first century, theologically, culturally, ecclesiologically. And when churches, especially churches in neighborhoods and cities

that are more diverse, where there's no excuse. So I live in Idaho, 92% white. If you go to a church and it's 92% white, it's like, well, what do you expect? Yeah, right, right. But even here, it's really exciting to see churches. Like the one that I go to on Christmas Eve, the service was in like five different languages. They read scripture in Arabic. They had Swahili.

They had French. They had Spanish and English. And it was even, too. Like some songs were led in Spanish. Some had Swahili. They had French. They had Spanish and English. And it was even, too. Some songs were led in Spanish. Some were led in English. And I'm like, even that, even though that church might be 85% white, I think it's more diverse than most. I don't know. Just even those kinds of things, just small little glimpses that we're showing an awareness of the global God and how he is moving in and through a global people. I don't know where I was going with all that. No, no, no.

That's great. That was a train of thought. Yeah, yeah. So I've been wanting to get to ask you about your wife and how she's been processing the last few weeks. Do you even want to go there? I don't know if you want to speak on behalf – or is she in the other room? Can we bring her in? I want to hear something.

No, she's not with me, but she definitely would be ready to speak on that if she was. Yeah, man. That is – you talk about a complicated conversation. Yeah. Yeah, man, that that is you talk about a complicated conversation. Yeah. Right. Like that is an ancient conversation. That's a religious conversation, an ethnic conversation, a land conversation. Like there's just so much, you know, interwoven in that. And, you know, right now, here's where my wife is landing. And I applaud her so much. You know, she she's landing on bringing back the humanity to a people that haven't had

humanity in the Palestinians. No, they haven't had a face. This is the first time, you know, she says she can remember. And even the first time I can remember that there was actually a really significant portion of the population that were saying, Hey, what about the Palestinians? Like that is not, has not been a historically, not even the Arab nations have backed up Palestine, uh, in, in many ways, um, even publicly. And so for her, it was odd that a bunch of people had jumped on this and obviously various social groups and, you know, the rhetoric. But where she falls and also where

I fall as well is how easy it is for us to dehumanize and just label a group of people. And I think that's just the tribalism of, of man that has always been since, you know, we were scattered in Babel, right? Like we're just scattered all over the place. And we just try to oversimplify, um, people because it is messy to get involved with people like love. Real love is a messy thing. It's a great thing. It's the thing that will last forever. It's the one most worthy of getting into. But people, when they come to this conversation, they want to oversimplify it. And my wife is doing her best to bring a human face to a people that in large part in this country have not had one.

Yeah. Is she from – was she born in Palestine or Israel? Her father, she's, so she's half Palestinian. So she's Palestinian American. Her mother's from here. Her father was born in Bethlehem, Bet Sohor. Yeah. And he moved here in his twenties.

Wow. So he has had plenty of experiences. Her grandmother still lives over there. Cousins, aun aunts uncles that live in the west bank so they don't live in the gaza strip but they live in the west bank uh and so yeah no we we got family when we go over there we we're we're staying in houses not hotels so my um my uh sister-in-law is uh from israel born and raised in israel her dad's a german immigrant to israel her mom's Jewish.

They were converted, but they're Jewish Christian. And then my brother, my brother-in-law who married her lived there for 15 years. And so, and he's a real thoughtful guy and he, you know, he would definitely be on the side of Israel. But he, even he would say like, man, it is more complicated than people over here realize. And it seems like the complexity is nullified when you just listen to certain news outlets. Like, man, if I turn on a right-wing versus a left-wing news outlet, you're going to get... Are you even talking about the same situation? It's like you're talking about two different universes, which is like, then I'm like, I don't know who to trust because I don't get the sense that you're trying to tell me

just what's going on. I get the sense that you have a narrative that you're going to promote. And then I've just kind of, I got to change the channel. I'm like, I don't, I'm not interested in that. So it seems like from my tiny viewpoint, it seems like you have just such diversity even on each side. Like you have the political state of Israel. Then you have Jewish people.

Then you have Hamas ruling over the Gaza Strip. Then you have Palestinian people. And when you collapse both of those together, there's so much difference, it seems like, between even those entities on each side. And if you just collapse each one into kind of one camp, that's, I think, problematic. Would that be a right?

I guess I'm asking the same question. Is that? A hundred percent. And you brought the news outlets that that's so, that's so true. I was watching, um, I, and I, I'm pretty sure you've, you've seen it. And if you haven't, you should watch it. It's called the social dilemma. It's a documentary, right? And they talk about, it's like, Hey, you and your spouse could have, you know, you know, you, you, it's you and your spouse, you know, each other.

Uh, but your Facebook feeds could be completely different. Your phones could be right next to each other. But if you've switched phones and you scroll through your Facebook feed, uh, like social media has catered so much to your taste and things you've engaged with and you've watched and you've liked and you posted that it will create its own echo chamber for you. And so even for the next generation, I mean, I've seen some wild posts about pro-Israel and some wild posts about Palestine and that like, like you're like, are these taking place in the same timeline? Like talking about Marvel, right? Are we in the same timeline?

Like, you know, these, the same histories that we're talking about the same people. Um, but I, it, it goes back to, to this tribalism as we, as globalization increases, it just shows us that we are going to be the same. Like our interconnectivity still eventually silos us off into groups, interconnectivity still eventually silos us off into groups, groups of ideologies, groups of people that look like us, that share the same interests as us or the same belief systems. And likewise, I think mainstream media is doing that for sure. But now social media for a new generation has become that because, I mean, people were shocked when I had that conversation and put a Palestinian flag in the background of my talk with my wife because she's Palestinian. And people were shocked that I would I would dare to do that. But then other people were like,

finally, someone's speaking out. And and then and then I thought about that social dilemma thing. And I was like, I wonder what their Facebook feed looks like or their Instagram feed looks like. And, and perhaps you're right. It's like, maybe we are living in two digital, different digital worlds. And because it's far, you know, our oversimplified narrative has lent us to say crazy things online. Have you, have you seen any like healthy, thoughtful Jewish Palestinian dialogues happening right now right now, even online or anything? Because I would love to listen in on something like that. Oh, man.

Preston, I'm going to be very honest with you. Right now, me and my wife are still sifting through a lot because I'm learning a lot. Because Latinos, we are very pro-Israel. Like Latinos. And I would say traditionally very pro-Israel. Like I said, it's getting more complex as the newer generations come along. And so even me having to sit down, I sat down with her grandmother two weeks ago. We went with her Palestinian family. A lot of them moved into Indiana. And so we went up there. Grandmother was in from Bethlehem, sat down to talk to her for an hour and a half of the realities of this conflict. And oh, my goodness, the stories that the story she told me.

the stories that the story she told me. Um, I, I think right now more than ever, um, find voices from people that live there or find voices from people that are from there or tied to there. Uh, that's, that's where I would start. I would start with stories, uh, from this because you can find every historical thing. And I mean, everyone has their own version of what happened, uh, who brought in who, when, you know, 1940 this and, you know, and the Zionist movement and like, like, like you're talking about, but I would start to compile as you have done, uh, in your field, you know, really trying to lean into Palestinian thoughts. Um, there are a couple of books. I, I can't remember them off the top of my head, but it's, uh, one of them, it's like seeing the Palestinian Israeli conflict through Palestinian Christian eyes. Um, and, and that, and by the way, for everyone, I didn't convert my wife from Islam to Christianity. People have literally told – they're like, so how did her father feel like when you – like if she converted over?

Does her father know she's Christian? I'm like, her whole family is Christian. They're Eastern Orthodox. Like the oldest Christian – one of the oldest Christianity in the world, right? Yeah. They probably converted you. Yeah. Like, Ellie, are you still a Christian?

But I do think that where we start in that conversation as Westerners and on the United States side, start with, you know, people that are from there. Uh, start with, if you're a Christian, uh, find a Christian Palestinian voices. I mean, even if you want Preston, I don't, if you don't mind me plugging, like I had a conversation with my wife on my, my Instagram stare to Instagram video, it's about 38 minutes. And we, we, she gives her viewpoint of, um, you know, how of how she's felt through this, stories from her father. I mean, I think that you need to start humanizing this conversation quicker than you should be informing yourself on this conversation. And I think that would be inverted. Could you give us a summary of, I mean, your wife's perspective or just a, a, a, a Palestinian perspective that maybe somebody that's only listening to right-wing news outlets might not hear? Like what, what are some big kind of blind spots that people who are hyper pro-Israel are missing from the Palestinian perspective?

Israel are missing from the Palestinian perspective? Yeah, that rhetoric is super important to this conversation because they are being lumped in with radical terrorists. Right. And they are not. Man, they are the nicest people. My family is the nicest people. One thing that you won't see on the media, or at least I have yet to see. And if it's out there, it's very sparse and scarce, uh, is, is hearing from a Palestinian that lives there. Right. And so I'm going to give you an example. I'll give you my, my grandmother as a testimony of this. My grandmother would tell me she's a Christian and man. And when I say a Christian, a Christian, like this woman has gone through persecution. Like we we don't know what persecution this woman has gone through, like persecution. Right. And she talks about her Christianity in such a like biblical like she's like a Bible character to me.

Like my my my wife's grandmother is like a Bible. She could be in the Bible because she talks about like in the 90s, whenever they were they were doing the suicide bombing in the buses and it was happening for several years in the 90s that God would wake her up. The Holy Spirit would wake her up in the middle of the night to go to the balcony in the middle of the night to pray. She said sometimes six hours of prayer over the city. This Palestinian woman would go by the Holy Spirit's just waking her up and praying over the city. And how many testimonies, I think she said it was about seven years that this was going back and forth and all the testimonies of friends, family members that miss certain buses or, uh, in certain places that bombs didn't go off that the night before God just woke her up and she went out into her balcony like those people live there.

Yeah. Like how does. And so to me, when when when we say things like, oh, you know, there's a very famous quote from the prime minister of Israel that's saying, well, when the Arabs lay down, if the Arabs laid down their weapons today, there would be peace. when the Arabs laid down, if the Arabs laid down their weapons today, there would be peace. But if Israel laid down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. And I have an issue with that because like, that's painting a broad stroke on my grandmother, who she, she is preying on these balconies so that the bombs can stop exploding in her neighborhood or that guns can stop being pointed at her sons. Like my, my father-in-law has dodged two bullets in his life from, you know, from, from ARs, from Israeli soldiers. And so what I would say to people that are in the right wing, would say to people that are in the right wing, like, be very careful when you talk about the expansion of Israel at the expense of human beings. So good. And not taking that into consideration that people live there and not just people that live there, people that share your faith live

there and that the Holy Spirit wakes up in the middle of the night to pray over their city to pray against the same group that you're blaming them for like it it's like they're praying against hamas too right so are there tensions between like say your grandma and and the average palestinian citizen are they super upset at hamas too like i like like, Oh yeah. Okay. No, no one likes, no one likes terrorism. Like no one likes terrorism. Nobody. Uh, and even, even that, how like, so we have a Muslim friends that are Palestinian, Palestinian Muslim friends as well. And they're good friends and they're friends there in Palestine, the Muslims and the Christians there, they have friendships there, but just like all extreme groups, nobody likes the extremities of even their own belief systems and Christianity throughout history. We've had our own groups

that have gone to the extremes. And so likewise, yeah, like your average Palestinian, I would say is pro against violence and all that's happening for sure. Yeah. So the biggest problem is lumping, like, well, that statement from the prime minister, like once the Arabs lay down their weapons, as if every Arab has an AR or something, it's not... The tension should, well, the tension's everywhere, right? I hesitate even speaking into this because I get way over my skis. But you do have a – the tension is primarily between the political entities of Hamas and the state of Israel. For sure. And that trickles down over Jew-Palestinian, but I mean,

it's not like Jews categorically and Palestinians categorically are the ones like fighting against each other. Right. Although I'm sure there's going to be tensions. But I think that that's exactly, you know, and I think that that's the whole of our conversation is, you know, when Christ looks at people, man, he sees the Imago Dei in them. He sees their humanity. He uplifts their dignity.

I mean, look at all the dignity that he gave back, you know, to the woman caught in adultery, to, right, to the Samaritan woman, to people that were blind, lame, lepers, like, it was all about, like, bringing dignity back to people that culture completely threw to the side, completely marginalized, completely isolated. And I think that if you're a believer, and you're're having discussions like we're having about the domestic, ethnic tensions that we're having here or the foreign ones that are tangled with our own faith. group people and not see their humanity anymore is the moment we have stepped out of a biblical theological conversation. And we've stepped into, I would say, just we've stepped into sin. Like the divisive nature of the enemy that wants to keep us separated. Like he loves when that stuff happens. And so to be careful with that. Dude, we're coming up on an hour. I

try to keep these around an hour. So I'm going to wrap things up, man. I could talk to you forever. We've just scratched the surface, man. There's so many other things we got to talk about. Dude, thank you for your work, your heart, your wisdom. I just love, I mean, even throughout this conversation, how many times you've brought us back to the gospel, back to Jesus, back to humanizing people and loving people and not being polarized. So man, thank you for the work that you do. Hope God keeps extending your sphere of influence. And I don't say that about a lot of people. Most of the time, I'm like, I wish God would minimize their spirit. Let's draw back that platform a little bit, man.

I don't know if this is actually helpful, but man, I would say the opposite for you, man. Just, yeah, so thankful for you, brother. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, and thank you for having me on. And likewise to you, Preston, all that you're doing, you know, uh, that you, you, you continually pull people back to the gospel and loving people and, and, and humanizing people. I think that that, uh, is, is the fight we're fighting for. That's, that's the love that, that we're all, um, desiring and that the church should be, um, just breeding out into the world. Like it should be multiplying like crazy. And so, uh, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Uh, where can people find you? I, I, uh,

Instagram, Tik TOK, Twitter. What's your, yeah. Instagram and Tik TOK. So, uh, Ellie Bonilla Jr. Spelled Eli. So E L I B O N I L L A J R Ellie Bonilla Jr. Um, both of those. Uh, and yeah, I have a podcast. It's called homies and heroes and Heroes, where I did that recent episode with my wife. You can find it there as well. And yeah, that's it. That's that's where you can find me. Awesome. Thanks for coming on, bro.

All right. Thank you.