Theology in the Raw - 873: Pastoring a Mega-Church through COVID and Politics: Dr. Darren Whitehead

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

Darren was a teaching pastor at Willow Creek, then decided to plant a church in Franklin, TN, which ended up growing into another Mega Church. In this episode, we talk about his interesting and unpredictable journey, what it’s like pastoring mega churches and planting churches, and how he navigated the very difficult year of 2020.  Originally from Australia, Darren has lived in the United States for over 20 years. He earned his Masters in Ministry from Wesley Seminary and his Doctorate from Capital Seminary and Graduate School, with his dissertation focus on Millennials and the future of the Western church. He recently released his second book, Holy Roar: 7 Words That Will Change The Way You Worship, co-authored with worship leader Chris Tomlin. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Youtube | Preston Sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm super excited about this episode because I have on the show my friend, Dr. Darren Whitehead. Darren is a pastor of a church, a large church in Franklin, Tennessee. We talk all about the church, so you'll hear more details about that. And I met Darren several years ago through a mutual friend, and I have also, he's good friends with John Tyson. A lot of you guys know John Tyson. They both came over from Australia, uh, 20 plus years ago and have created a lot of, uh, a lot of havoc on us Americans here in a good way. Uh, Darren is just a wonderful guy and has a lot of, uh, quote unquote success in ministry in evangelicalism. And it's really helpful to hear him talk about the different positions he's had. He's had some really high level positions in the evangelical

church, and yet he has maintained a solid, robust, humble faith in Jesus. He's incredibly talented and gifted, and yet you wouldn't know it if you hung out with him because it's all a show. No, just kidding. You wouldn't know it because he's just such a down-to-earth, normal dude that just loves Jesus. And so I wanted him to talk through what it was like going from a megachurch pastor to church planner and back to now a megachurch pastor and how he's even weathered the storm of COVID and the different things going on in the country the last year or so. It was a great conversation, I think, especially towards the end when we started to really dig into discipling people through the political turmoil we're in and all the polarization.

He has some great, great stuff on that. So yeah, Darren's originally from Australia. He came over to the United States over 20 years ago. He's got a master's degree in ministry from Wesley Seminary and his doctorate from Capital Seminary and Graduate School. He wrote a book. He co-wrote a book with Chris Tomlin called Holy Roar, Seven Words That Will Change the Way You Worship. And yeah, so I'm super excited for this conversation. He's just an amazing guy.

If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, support the show for as little as five bucks a month to get access to premium content and join the theology in the raw community, which continues to grow. I'm so thankful for all of you who are faithful supporters and have, you know, just been encouraging me and encouraging the show to go on over the years. So thank you for your support. Without further ado, let's get to know the one and only Dr. Darren Whitehead. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. I am here with my good friend, Darren Whitehead, coming all the way from Franklin, Tennessee. Darren, thanks so much, dude, for being on Theology in a Raw. Thanks so much for having me, mate. This is an honor.

I'm a big fan of the show. I love it. I can't believe I haven't had you on yet. Is that true? Sometimes I just assume because we've had conversations that you've been on the show, but I don't think I've ever had you on. You know, I wake up every morning going, maybe today will be the day the press will ask me. Maybe today. And so finally it came about. So I'm thrilled.

Yeah. As you guys can tell, Darren is from South Africa. Oh, come on. Do you get that a lot? Do you get people that misidentify you? Oh, totally. Yeah. Americans, basically their understanding of accents in the world is the American accent and other. Americans, basically, their understanding of accents in the world is the American accent and other. And Americans really have no ability to discern it. So Brits, whether you're British, South African, Australian, or New Zealand, it all just sounds the same to most American ears. But yes, I get mistyped all the time.

I would have, but after living in the UK, now it's easy for me to distinguish a British accent from Australia, South Africa. I would still admit, though, the South Africa, Australia, and I've been to Australia a few times, never been to South Africa, but it usually takes me a little bit. I'm like, yeah, I'm 90% sure you're from south africa not australia or vice versa the new zealand australia one though man i that one's can you i mean is that a bit new zealand and australia is close you know i've and i've got that wrong myself there's a couple of phrases and a couple of sounds um that kiwis and aussies say differently yeah the south african accent

to my ear sounds nothing like australia you know particularly to you know sort of your afrikaans uh dutch south african person uh and i've got several friends in the u.s actually that are you know afrikaans was their first language right and english is their second language and you know they kind of butcher the english language in my view but i can't speak another another language so much respect to them right but it sounds nothing like an aussie accent in my view yeah it's it's uh yeah i can i can i've hung out with south africans before and there definitely is a distinction now. But yeah, it would probably be like somebody listening to somebody that's not from America. You've got a Californian and then somebody from Louisiana, and they can hardly understand each other, right?

And somebody else is like, oh, you guys sound the same to me. Like, how do we sound the same to you? Yeah, yeah. And definitely, I mean, the U.S. is so much larger than australia in terms of population not in land mass but in population you know aussies is like under 30 million people 20 something million people in the u.s is what 350 million or something so the diversity in where people are and how different it sounds you get someone from like you said you know louisiana or new york or boston versus california yeah really different but yeah but prior to living

here i just thought there was an american accent and that was yeah oh yeah does anybody not like an aussie like you know every country has their stigma or whatever but when it comes to australia i don't think i've ever met anybody that didn't have this – just such a positive view of Aussies. I don't know. Do you find yourself making friends pretty easy when they hear your accent? Yeah, it's a blessing, honestly. Americans like Aussies.

Not every country in the world likes Aussies. You know, like the French don't like anyone. I won't tell my wife you said that. Oh, yeah, that's right. There's someone in my house right now who's French. But, I mean, pretty much. Americans are pretty intrigued by Australia, based on the Crocod hunter and crocodile dundee

and you know a few things like that but yeah i don't know when when i went to france i i found them not to be very friendly at all what's your experience in paris been so yeah there my wife would be the first because she grew up in south uh like uh outside of lyon and kind of more the south, central, western area. And they say Parisians are stuck up and snobby and all this stuff. So there is, even within France, kind of a view of people in Paris versus everybody else. So it also helps. I mean, if you go as a tourist, you're an outsider, you're a tourist, and you typically go to tourist places like paris and it's true and people kind of worn out with the tourism and french don't have a long

fuse you know so um but when i when i've gone there we've gone to like family friends house where man they they have a big table outside on the hill with wine they got from their own fields. And it's just so welcoming. So if you're kind of part of the culture or have a relational in, then it's night and day different. But yeah, anybody walking on the streets of Paris, I mean, yeah, there's a snootiness there. I think, again, many French would even say, yeah, I hate going to Paris, you know? Yeah. Well, but to your question, yeah, I mean, Americans are very kind to Aussies.

Yeah. And I've lived in the U.S. for 23 years. Oh, hey, you went mute. You went mute. What happened? I did. Oh oh there you are yeah that's weird so you well hey well why don't we yeah tell us your story darren for those who don't know who you are um obviously you're born in australia tell us how and when you came to america what the last 20 plus years have been like yes i moved I moved to the US in 1998. And I actually

came over here to work in radio. I was working in Christian radio in Australia, in the marketing and sales side, not so much the programming. But I came over to work in Christian radio. And I went to Melbourne in Australia to apply for a work permit to come to the United States. And they processed the whole petition. And they ended up making an administrative error. So what they did is they looked at me wanting to work at a Christian radio station, and they just perceived that as being a church. And so they gave me a pastor's visa. I'd never been a pastor before. I'd never been to seminary. I had no plans to become a pastor. And they gave me a religious worker's visa, which meant that I had to work as a pastor if I wanted to stay in the United States. So people ask me, you know,

like, how did the Lord call you into the ministry? And I say, the US government called me into this. And out of fear of deportation, I just keep preaching every week, you know, I don't want this to end. So that is the absolute truth. That is the serendipity of how I became a pastor. It was an administrative error from the US consulate office in Melbourne. That's hilarious. in the Christian music industry, and they invited me to live with them. And so I spent the first – I was 23 years old, and I spent the first two years living in their basement. And over the course of time, I just started working at a church.

That's what I did because I wanted to stay in the U.S. You came over with John Tyson, right? You guys came over together? John came over six months before I did. John came over to go to school. six months before i did john came over to go to school he went to school in georgia um bible college and uh i was in nashville and we're about six months apart okay okay yeah and then so from nashville uh what was the next two years there preaching at just any church that would have you preach or were you on staff? What happened was, this is another crazy thing. So, uh, there was a Southern Baptist church called First Baptist Franklin and, uh, they unknowingly became my sponsor. So again, this is like,

it's sort of an administrative complete disaster, but, uh, someone had written a letter saying that, you know, that they're excited about me coming over to America or something like that. And so what they did is they basically made me a, you know, I was sponsored by this big Baptist church in Franklin. And so when I came over here, they said, do you want to start working here? And I said, sure. And so that's what I did.

I became one of the youth pastors. Okay. And a couple of years later, John Tyson came and we served together. Okay. And at this church. And I got married in 2002. And then in 2004, a church in Chicago, Willow Creek, reached out to me. And I ended up moving up and becoming the college pastor at Willow Creek in Chicago.

Okay. How did they get a hold of you? What was the connection there? So in 2001, there was a kid in my youth group whose father introduced himself to me one day and said, Hi, my name is Michael Smith. And I thought, No, it's not. It's Michael W. Smith. And so it was the singer. And so one day we became friends. And one day Michael W. was recording a worship record.

This is in 2001. It was actually the biggest record. This is in 2001. It was actually the biggest record of his career. It sold 2 million copies. And he said, I want you to come and do something in one of the songs. And so there was this song called Let It Rain. And in the middle of the song, I walked out and I read Psalm 97 and I prayed this prayer. And it was like a really sweet moment in the concert.

And then Michael invited me to go on tour with him. So in 2001, I started touring with him. Honestly, I felt like Forrest Gump, man. I mean, I just like showed up here and I'm like, I listened to Michael W. as a kid. And now I'm on his tour bus and I'm like, I'm not even sure how this happened, but God bless America. So I tour with Smitty and then I met some other guys there. Caveman's Call, a band, was on tour with us.

And the lead singer of that has gone in, Cliff Young. His brother's gone in, Ben Young, who was working at Second Baptist Houston, which is his dad's founder of that church. Willow called Ben. Ben said, I know of a guy in Franklin you should reach out to, and that's how it happened. You quickly just kind of started getting connected with some pretty high-powered people and evangelicals. Yeah.

It was strange. It was strange. But, yeah, I mean, I lived with a family who worked in the music industry and so i i sort of got to know other other people pretty quick there was a a singer by the name of rebecca saint james it was her family and uh and so i was living with them they're aussies and then uh her brothers are in a band now called for king and country, which is one of the biggest bands in Christian music in the world right now. So she's one of seven kids. And so I was living with their family.

I was just like an additional kid living at their house. Wait, so For King and Country is the brother of Rebecca St. James? That's true. I didn't know that. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I grew up in the kingdom of faith. Of all all the things i've said that was the big takeaway for you dude these are my here cademan's call rebecca saint james i mean i i got saved in the 90s

out of you know it was that kind of christian rock 90s scene was huge for me. It was when DC Talk came out with, was it Jesus Freak or whatever? And then like, there was a massive Christian kind of like Woodstock conference called Spirit West Coast, like a three, four day outdoor summertime. I mean, it was like, it was like, oh, this, i could be a christian and do this this is you know pretty cool you know and and so that that music scene was is was a huge huge step in my faith journey so no man i'm geeking out when you say like rebecca saint james and all like i think i saw i think she was she was at spirit wife sky remember seeing her like on stage yeah i actually know exactly i can picture the stage now. And she was killing it, you know? I'm like, golly. Yeah, it was amazing.

Well, you know, for me, I grew up in a tiny town in the southernmost part of the mainland of Australia. And I listened to Christian music too. And I was the only person in my class at school that was a Christian. And I took a lot of comfort and drew a lot of strength from Christian music. So moving to Nashville one day and meeting all these people was like a, you know, it was sort of like stepping into a movie. I mean, it was really surreal. Still is to some degree, you know, like I'm just amazed that this has been the journey that God has led me on.

So you end up at Willow Creek and started as a college pastor. And how long were you there? And yeah, what did you end up doing at Willow? Yeah, so about two years into me being there, I ended up becoming the teaching pastor there. and the teaching pastor there. And so at the time, Bill Hybels was leading and he and I were sharing the teaching responsibilities for about seven different campuses. Wow.

It was broadcast out across Chicagoland. I was a fan of Willow too. I mean, you know, when John Tyson and I were youth pastors, we'd go to the Leadership Summit, we'd read books on leadership. Yeah. I just didn't know anyone there. And so when i ended up working there you know i kind of knew a lot of the people by reputation that were that became my work

colleagues but i was there for eight years and um and and i left in 2013 so or actually 2012 so you know eight years ago not almost nine years ago. So a lot of the drama that has gone down in the last, you know, handful of years has broken my heart because these aren't just names. These are my friends. Yeah. And, um, and so it's been very personal and it's taken me a while to process a lot of sadness that I've had in the, in the Willow story in these last five years or so. This is public, so I don't know how much you're able to share, but how have you reflected on the stuff that has gone down at Willow,

whatever you're comfortable sharing publicly? I don't know how close you were to Bill. You're sharing teaching responsibilities. I would imagine you're sharing teaching responsibilities i would imagine you're fairly close but um yeah no i i reported to bill you know so we we we worked closely together um you know when i i reflect on on how it's all gone down uh i'm i'm heartbroken. I mean, I feel like in many ways I spent my 30s at Willow Creek and I learned about ministry. I learned about leading things of scale.

I mean, there's a lot of things Willow didn't do well, but there were some things they did really well, regardless of whether people are buying into that ecclesiology that was represented in that season, because they sort of evolved as well. You know, they were a secret church for a season, but they kind of moved way beyond that. You know, when John Altberg was there,

and I mean, they really became a pretty solid Bible teaching church. A lot of people would just remember, you know, sort of the 1998 version of Willow, you know, which was a little bit more of a seeker kind of a movement. But, you know, it was such a sacred time in my life. Certainly there was a pace of that organization. Bill came from a family that was business people. And so the application and the intersection of sort of business leadership principles and theology and the church was kind of personified in him and, and strategy and so forth. And so it was like a high pace, high performing organization that actually appealed to me. I, I felt like I could do it.

I got exhausted certainly in different seasons, but I learned a lot and reflecting on it now and looking back, I'm very, very sad that, uh, you know, sad that it has been a difficult place. And God willing, I have people from Willow visit my church almost every Sunday. They're traveling through. They're moving to Nashville like half the world is right now. And so when I run into folks from Willow, you know, we connect on being so sad about it all. But I'm hopeful for where they're going to go in the future. They've got a new pastor and they're kind of, you know, reengineering things.

So Godspeed to them. Quick pros and cons of being a lead teaching pastor at a massive church. Pros and cons of teaching at a medical church in your mid-30s. Well, for some people, it's probably a dream job. To those who just want to write sermons, it's actually an amazing job. My leaning is more toward the organizational leadership. And so, uh, what I found in that role, I mean, I was over a number of different departments, but what I found in that role is it wasn't a good long-term role for me. Um, certainly there is, uh, uh, uh, a thrill with, with, you know, that the room that we spoke to was 7,200 seats. You know,

it's a large room. There's a rush that comes with speaking in what sort of feels like a coliseum every week. There's definitely a pressure you feel that comes with that too. And there's definitely a pressure you feel that comes with that too. But my real strength is organizational leadership. Teaching is sort of like the secondary thing in sort of my gift mix. As I've learned to understand myself, I'm a leader first and a teacher second. And so just being, you know, you and I were talking a couple of weeks ago when we were together about how much you just love to consume content and some of your life doing that. And I'm, I'm really, I'm much more of a, a people person, you know,

like I'm energized by people. So sermon prep for me does not come easy. It's labor for me. Strategic leadership is actually quite natural for me. The way I see problems and how to solve them and who to put on something and hire people and fire people and like that kind of stuff is so much easier for me than writing sermons. So that just meant that this role was not a great long so much easier for me than writing sermons. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that just meant that this role was not a great long-term role for me, even though it certainly had scale. It was not a good long-term role. So then you decide to leave this kind of quote-unquote dream job, what many people would consider a dream job, and go plant a church back where you started in Franklin, right? Yes. Yeah. Was that, what was, what was your lead? It was, it, I mean, was it an outflow of this?

You feeling like this is an amazing job, but this isn't my primary kind of like gifting where I want to see myself. Cause that's, yeah, I was, I was in my late thirties and I was feeling 40 closing in on me. And I was just feeling like this is not the right long-term job for me. And Bill and I had talked about potentially taking over Willow after he left, but our timelines weren't matching. He wasn't really feeling like he was ready to be finishing. And I was feeling like, man, I'm squandering my prime years of my life where I really need to be – like God has wired me to be a lead pastor.

That's the way I think. It's just what I want to do. Yeah. I decided that Brandy and I prayed and decided that we were going to go plant a different kind of church to Willow, but in Nashville. And we planted two churches on the same day. We planted one in East Nashville and we planted one in Franklin. East Nashville is a lot more of a progressive community. Franklin is a lot more conservative east nashville was a little more diverse both the ethnicity and um economically franklin was a more of a wealthy homogenous white

you know uh you know kind of a higher socioeconomic in terms of that lifestyle. So we planted two churches on the same day in two really different places. And it was funny because at times I felt like I was speaking to a Republican church in the morning and speaking to a Democrat church in the evening. And jokes don't always work in both camps, by the way. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, there was something about it that i really loved you know it was it was there was there was unity and all of that but what we did is we planted in a school and we would load in in the morning we would do church and then we would tear it all down

loaded into a trailer drive across the city set it all up again and do church again then tear it all down and we would have no trouble sleeping in the evenings after doing that. So we did that for two years in that capacity. And then at the two year mark, my former church, way back when, 15 years ago, First Baptist Church was also known as the People's Church. Their senior pastor resigned sort of quickly and unexpectedly. And he left and their elders came to me and they said, would you be interested in merging the two churches together? And there was a lot of drama that was going on in that church. And my first thought was, absolutely not. Like, I have no interest in doing this.

You know, like things were going pretty well in our new church. We were two years old. We had, you know, we had enough money in the bank where we knew we were going to survive. We had a couple of good locations and things were just going great. We had unity, you know. The great thing about church planting is that the only people that are there are the ones that want to be there.

You know, because it's also new and no one's saying, well, this is not how we usually do it. You don't have any of this history that you're pulling from that people feel like you're violating. You just knew and people either resonate with the values and the vision or they don't. And if they do, they're there and they're glad to be there. So we just had this season of just profound unity and we were loving it. So I just thought I have no interest in taking a church, as it turns out, was 186 years old. One of the first churches in Franklin, Tennessee.

I mean, predating civil war, all kinds of stuff. Oh my gosh. And I thought I have no interest in uh you know like the elders were like would you what if what if we merged our churches together and um you know I I thought there's no way I'm going to do this um they said would you at least pray about it I said oh look I'll pray about. So I get into my car and I call my wife and I say, look, we're obviously not going to do this, but they want to know if we want to merge with them. So we start having a conversation and we do pray about it. And we put out a fleece,

right? And this fleece was, all right, the only way we would do this is if they came to us and said, we want to adopt your mission, vision, values, your name, everything. Like we want to essentially give you the assets of the church and we want to join your vision. It's the only way we'd do that. And I'm like, well, they're not going to suggest that. There's no way. The further fleece was like, I'm never going to bring it up. I'm never going to say that's what we want. I'm never going to say that this is the only way we would do it.

It's not going to be my list of non-negotiables. I'm just going to silently have that prayer that the only way we would agree to do this is if that was their posture. And the next day, I'm meeting with one of the elders, and he looks at me in the middle of a conversation. He goes, you know what we need to do this as if that was their posture. And the next day I'm meeting with one of the elders and he looks at me in the middle of a conversation. He goes, you know what we need to do? We need to become church of the city. We need to like adopt your mission and your vision and your values. Like we need to join the vision that you're casting. And I felt like there was a bolt of lightning that came down my spine. And I thought, oh, gosh, we are to do this. Because I honestly, I've been doing this a while, right?

And I thought my life is going to be really hard for the next three years. Yeah. And the concept of just sort of merging two organizations and staff teams and worship teams and putting all of that together is as exhausting as it sounds. And we kind of used a formula that Bruce Tuckman popularized back in, I guess, like 1950 or something. And it's the four stages of merging or group formation. And the four stages are, um, forming, storming, norming, performing. So forming is when you first come in together. Storming is when everyone's like,

this is terrible. This is not going to work. Everyone's stepping on each other's toes. People are criticizing, people are leaving all of that. Norming is when the dust starts to settle a little bit and there's just like a sense of like, all right, well, here's the new normal. And then performing is when you really start to feel the collective synergy of the two organizations and they start to perform better than either did when they were on their own. That was about a three-year journey and the storming was the one that was most memorable and so you how big was church of the city prior to the merge you had about 500 people or uh so we had about a thousand people in the two churches so we we've had probably 800 in uh one church and a couple of hundred in the other church. So we had about a thousand people. And the people's church had about 2,000 people.

And right now, let's just say pre-COVID, how many were you running now, several years after the merge? About 8,000, 9,000 people. And both you and I don't really care about numbers. That's not why I'm asking. But just to give the perspective of going from a major megachurch, feeling like that's not the best role you're in, and you're going to plant in a church, and you're thriving, and now it's – and we've – I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I've heard you say you weren't trying to build a big church. You weren't trying to have – our goal is to get to 10,000 by 2022 or something.

So I guess my question is, do you find yourself back to where you were 10 years ago? Like, I feel like I'm not in the role that I feel most gifted at? Or have you been able to do what you feel like you're gifted at within a megachurch context? to do what you feel like you're gifted at within a megachurch context? Yeah, so the size and the scale is not the problem. And that was not the problem that I had at Willow. That's not why I wanted to leave. The reason I was leaving is that my primary role was teacher,

not leader teacher. And I just feel like the teaching thing went well, but I just in my heart feel like I'm a better leader than I am teacher. And my teaching, teaching the scripture is a vehicle for leadership and mobilization in the way that I think. And so I just felt like I wasn't in my best lane. And so now I am. And so the problem is not scale. The other thing is I learned a lot from that era. And there are a lot of things that are really quite different about our church than Willow Creek.

And it makes it far more sustainable for me. I love my job. Like I don't fan, I don't fantasize about escaping and leaving. On my worst day, I'm not like wanting to disappear. It's still really hard, but like, and I expect it to be hard. Like ministry is hard. Yeah. Pretty much everything's hard, by the way. But like if you expect life to be hard, when it is, you're not surprised. If you expect life to be easy and most of the time it's hard, you're living with this tension of injustice. Like why is life so hard? Like leading a church is hard. It's always hard. Yeah.

And I'm actually okay with that yeah you've got an amazing i mean i just in a little time i spent at your church uh seems like and i know on air you you can't give maybe all the underbelly of it all but i mean it seems like you got a great team around you man i, I met dozens of people that are on staff, volunteering, whatever. And it's like, man, each one just seems really genuine, humble. It seems like they care about the mission. They care about people. It didn't have the vibe, if I can say it like this, that maybe one might expect from a very flourishing mega church in a fairly wealthy kind of upper middle class area. Like it didn't have that vibe at all. Um, is that something, and I, again, I'm sure you're like,

well, yeah, last week we had to deal with this or whatever, but, um, is that, would that be an accurate, I mean, assessment and how did you cultivate that kind of environment to not let this kind of growth go to people's heads? Well, it's a couple of things. First of all, I agree with you. We have amazing people. I mean, I love my staff team. I love them. I had two days this week that were off sites where I was just with a group of people.

And I'm just energized being around them like I really enjoy their presence their energy um and and these are the people that it's sort of uh the the vision the values and the culture that we've created it resonates with them and so they really want to be there I don't have anyone certainly in the upper level of management and leadership that don't want to be there. They're really kind of having the time of their lives. And we're also in a city that's flourishing and experiencing a ton of prosperity right now. And so collectively, whenever a church does really well, it's never one thing.

It's a collection of things. And our church has grown fast. And in part, we got given a couple of buildings right yeah and they're very high profile buildings in our city and we're one of the fastest growing cities in america so you know there's a collection of factors many of which i can't control at all that has that has brought about the the kind of of story that we've had. But I think I've also come from a place that's a lot larger than ours. Right.

Right. And it's just sort of demystified when you're a part of it. You know, there were certain eras of Willow where Willow was just one of the more influential churches on earth. But it's also a normal church. Like when you got there and you were working there, you're like, we had tons of problems. There were things we didn't do well.

There were all these urban legends that would spread around pastors about, you know, Bill would want to read your sermon three months before you deliver it and you need to submit it to him. And it was just nothing like that. You know what it was like? Your church. It was like a week of, you know, what are we preaching on this weekend? I don't know.

And by the time we got there, we'd had it worked out. But, I mean, it was like a normal church, but it was big. There was definitely evangelistic fervor in that church. There's no doubt, which really came from Bill. But many of us have been a part of something that's so much larger than the thing that we're a part of that i don't know building a personality centric movement is just that it just doesn't appeal to me and um something that john tyson and i have spent a lot of time reflecting on lately is just the fall of both our heroes and our friends from significant ministry positions.

And it breaks my heart. when someone has a moral fall or their character is revealed and it ultimately disqualifies them from the role that they're in and they get canceled or wherever you want to call it. We often talk about redemption, but we don't often talk about prevention and I want to get upstream. I want to like go, how do we stop this from happening? And John and I are actually going to be releasing something in June called Avoiding Leadership Disaster. And it's going to be 12 lessons of 12 themes of the things that we need to keep an eye on so that we can get upstream and

we can stop pastors from destroying their lives you know what is no no no pastor no pastor wakes up in the morning and says today's the day it's all going to blow up you know so none of them wanted that and i look at some of these guys and they're smarter than me, godlier than me. They're more strategic and more disciplined than me. What makes me think that I am going to avoid a leadership disaster? Right. And yet you have so far. As you look at the many different leaders who have fallen recently that are in very similar ministry roles, they're a leader of many, many people.

There's an energy there. There's massive influence. Um, what would you say you've done differently? And I know you're going to try to be humble about it, but really, like are there other things that you have seen have led to a culture which really leads to a fall that you've tried to avoid? Yeah, I think, I mean, John and I in this material have 12 different themes. But certainly you could encapsulate a lot of it under just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. And that's true on lots of things.

doesn't mean you should. And that's true on lots of things. Pastors end up being the most powerful person in the room in their little enclave, in their little subculture. And when everyone's on your payroll, it's very difficult to get truth. When everyone agrees with you all the time, you can create an echo chamber and you get completely unaware of the blind spots that you have. And we all have blind spots. That's why they're called blind spots. You know, we just don't know. We don't know what they are. And I had someone say recently that everyone has 3.7 blind spots. And they said,

these are 3.7 things that everyone else knows about you that you don't know about yourself. And if it is ever revealed, everyone goes, oh yeah, that's true. And you're like, what? Really? Really? But if you have an echo chamber, if you have a bunch of people that just agree with you and think you're amazing, and you don't have people that you trust that can actually speak truth to you, you will, over the course of time, your church will reflect your strengths and your weaknesses. The church will become an amplification of who you are, including your blind spots. Your weaknesses, your blind spots, your things that you're unaware of about yourself will actually be amplified in your church,

unless people are actually giving you honest feedback and truth. So you've created an environment where people feel safe, they can give you honest feedback, and they don't feel like they have to... Certainly not everyone. Not everyone feels that with me. But I have a number of people, more people that are not on staff with me, to be honest. Here's the funny thing about being a senior pastor. So I've been in pastoral ministry for 23 years. Most of that time, I was not the senior pastor, right?

So I know what it's like to not be the guy when the guy comes in the room and how the room changes and like i know it's i know what that dynamic is like and so i'm doing my best to dispel that dynamic on my own team okay and and so i i mean it's just the reality when you lead something that's that is large and you've got lots of staff members and all of that, people want your approval and they don't want to lose their jobs. They want to gain influence. They don't want to lose influence. Well, that kind of space cultivates an environment

where people just want to tell me what they think is going to make me happy. And that's not what I need to know. So I say that. And I just give them permission. and that's not what I need to know. So I say that. I just give them permission to go, look, if we're brainstorming or whatever, I'm like, I'm going to speak last because if I speak first, you guys are probably not going to speak after that. You're just going to go, well, that's what he wants to do. Or I'm going to say, look, I know that we've got issues.

I know we've got some problems. I want to talk about them. I want to have, like, I authentically want to dive into the challenges that we have. So you've got to be really, really honest with me. And when am I the problem? Like, when am I actually, like, when is my personality or my lack of preparation or my lack of communication to getting back to people or whatever? Where am I bottlenecking our organization? And how can I not do that and not frustrate you? That's good, man.

I can't wait for that book to come out. I really hope a lot of people check it out. You and John, I could say this. You're not asking me to say this, but you and John are highly talented, very successful, and yet when I'm around you, I just sense, you and John are, you know, highly talented, very successful. And yet when I'm around you, I just sense nothing but just a genuine love for Jesus, a self-awareness of like, I could be that guy, but that guy that I could be is a very dangerous position to be in. And I feel like you both have a natural aversion to becoming maybe more of a celebrity name than you already

are. Yeah. I just, yeah. I, I, I think you guys are kind of, well, especially you because your church is much bigger in numbers than John. I don't know if John's could get that big in Manhattan. There's a cultural limitation there, but. Well, everything is changing in New York right now. You think about what's happening in the, cultural limitation there but um what everything is changing in new york right now yeah you think about what's happening in the in the church landscape when you can see what's happening in a redeemer and what's happening at hillsong and you know like there is a shuffling off the deck

right now how so let's let's transition just a bit to uh the last year okay so all of the i mean covid uh racial tensions election, politics in general. How have you managed that? How's that been at your church? Has it been, almost every pastor I talk to say it's been the most challenging discipleship issue facing my church is what they would say. I've got people that are divided across who they voted for, and Jesus is not enough for unity, and there's just a lot of just suspicion and fear and anger, a lot of anger. And most of the pastors I'm thinking of

have churches where they are a lot smaller than yours. Have you faced that same kind of set of challenges? And two, how has being in a much larger church, has that been easier? Because you're kind of maybe removed from all the whispering in the crowds, or has it been more difficult? Or how have you handled all that? So this past year has been the most challenging year I've ever had in pastoral ministry. I mean, this is more difficult than church planning and more difficult than church merging. I mean, this is more difficult than church planning and more difficult than church merging. This has been excruciating.

Wow. And when you – it's funny, right? 2020. We're all going into 2020 like we're so clever, like 2020 vision. We're going to roll out our 2020 vision. And then March hits and like everything is, you know, everything as we had planned and as we knew it was just completely ambushed. What's interesting is that, you know, we're talking about seeing a 2020 vision. What happened is that we actually really did like COVID revealed something that gave us a clearer picture than maybe ever. It just wasn't in the way that we were expecting. But I do think that the three-part, the global pandemic,

together with the racial tension, together with an election year and just the vitriol level of polarization that is going on in politics, it was the worst year ever to be in pastoral ministry. Part of it is you couldn't hide and you have to give a public address every week. And the landscape is changing every week. So, you know, we would have meetings and and i know that you know your listeners are relating to this because you had the same thing but we would have day-long meetings about what are we going to do with covid and all of that kind of stuff and then

three days later all the landscape had changed again and everything we've been talking about so so uh we had the first ever uh the ground zero patient of covid19 in the state of tennessee was in our church oh wow so um this is a guy who had been to boston this is when people were losing their minds about covid right this is when people thought this is the Spanish flu or this is a plague. And you listen to podcasts and they're saying millions of Americans are going to die from this. There's no way to avoid it. And you're going to know multiple families, like we're all going to know families. We're all going to, you know, everyone's going to lose someone in this. And it just looked like, you know, a significant portion of the population was going to be wiped out with the coronavirus. And so this guy contracts COVID.

And this is in the hazmat suit time, you know. This is when the government's coming in and he's getting persecuted in his neighborhood and and all of that i'm working with the governor's office about whether we need to shut down our church this is before anything was being shut down and it turned out that he had not been to our church um since he got back and his family hadn't been so there was no you know connected line but you know, this is when we're, we're cleaning everything. We'll clean in the walls. We're cleaning the chairs. We're cleaning out groceries. I mean, do you not think at some point we're going to look back at this

time in history and go, wait, we were wiping down our groceries. Really? I don't know. So we ended up closing our church down, as did everyone. We did everything we could to be able to keep meeting in some capacity. We did like everyone else did. We pivoted and went online. At some point, I realized what happened. You know, I went to seminary because I really wanted to be a pastor and I ended up a tele-evangelist. And this is just not what I had in mind. But we're speaking to empty rooms and all of that. And so we ended up reopening

as did a lot of churches in the summer of 2020. And we had modified gatherings and social distancing and all of that but then just when we were completely and utterly exhausted from that and the criticism we were getting from masks or no masks or socially distanced you shouldn't even be open or you're being irresponsible um then the race stuff happened and the the lowest point for me in 2020 was when I was trying to pastorally address the racial tension that was going on in our church. We have a significant amount of diversity represented on our staff. We have an African-American worship leader.

We have several African-American men in senior leadership in our church teaching pastors and such. And so I felt like, and we have a lot of people of color in our church who show up to church and wonder if their white pastor is even going to acknowledge their pain or their fear or their anxiety. And I felt a responsibility to say something carefully about, you know, weeping with those who weep, grieving with those who grieve. And I ended up, someone asked to meet with me the next week. He was a police officer and

But someone asked to meet with me the next week. He was a police officer and he was so angry with me, like just so angry with me. He's a guy I've known for a long time. For what? Because you, just because you took that approach, like acknowledging that people are hurting during this time? It's just emotional, bro. It's just, it's, it's emotional. Like I had, I had mentioned something about the police and I said, you know, um, of course not every police officer is bad and we should be praying and for,

for our police officers. And, you know, so I, I had a, I had a comment on there, but he felt like I didn't dedicate enough time to that. And so he, he was just, he was just so angry with me. And in the moment, I sort of put on a brave face and said, Hey, man, well, thanks for sharing your thoughts and all of that. And when he walked out of my office, it was just the lowest point, man. I was so beat down. i was so beat down i was so beat down and i just thought there this it is impossible to please everyone and um you know i'd been getting criticism from several

uh african-american members in our church that i didn't say enough. And then I'm getting hammered by the police officers because I said, I'd said too much. And I'm telling you, Preston, I did not, I did not speak freestyle on that day. I had crafted and I had honed what I was going to say. So it was not haphazard. And, um, uh, you know you know still just got pounded by people from both sides what advice would you give to to other leaders listening that are saying oh my gosh that's i had that same experience like maybe maybe they're still feeling beat down or feeling like even now like i don't know how to move forward with this tension like what did you learn uh through all of that well it's funny thing about being on stage right like it's an odd profession to get up and give a

monologue every week to a crowd of people who sit there and just look at you and listen um but one thing i've learned over the years is i am not as good as some people think I am. And I am not as bad as some people think I am. Right? Like who they perceive me to be is this father and husband and Bible teacher and leader and all that. Like I'm not as good as some people think I am. I'm actually kind of a regular dude.

But I'm also not as selfish and sinister and evil as some people think I am either. Right. I, I, I am a complex mix of, uh, of, of, of good and, uh, uh, areas that need to be improved. Uh, I, I am capable of mixed motive. I am capable of, of, of all of those things. I am capable of mixed motive. I am capable of all of those things. So you just can't put too much stock in those who just think you're amazing and you can't put too much stock in those who think you suck. You've got to have the people around you that love you outside of what you do

and how you perform. And then you've got to go before the Lord, and you've got to follow your convictions. You know, there's a book that was written by Edwin, Edwin Freeman. He wrote a book called failure of nerve. Are you familiar with that book? I've heard of it. Yeah, I've not read it. It's just the concept of failure of nerve is when you're leading through something that is difficult and people start to criticize you, you cower. You take a step back. And we see this all through the Bible, right?

I mean Elijah is calling down fire literally from heaven, and he sees it manifest. hauling down fire literally from heaven, and he sees it manifest. He's smack, you know, talking to, you know, like the prophets of Baal and making fun of them. And then fire literally falls from heaven. And then he just hears afterwards a rumor that Jezebel wants him to die, and he just disappears. Like he's terrified of Jezebel. He just literally saw fire from heaven.

Wouldn't you think his natural response would be, watch out, baby, because there's another one coming for you. But he's not. He's depressed. He's suicidal. Because one person is criticized. Ministries like that, right? Something can go so well, and then one person criticizes you,

and it just devastates you and you're like why am i even doing this i want to quit you know yeah but the failure of nerve is you start to not lead with conviction you start to just try to please people and minimize criticism and that's a dangerous place to be you think it also has to do with the personality of the pastor and obviously some personality is going to be more more think it also has to do with the personality of the pastor? I mean, obviously some personalities are going to be more of a people pleaser, you know, I don't know, Enneagram 9 or whatever. Others, you know, Enneagram 8 probably isn't going to give a rat's tail,

you know, what people say. It's such a stereotype. But, yeah, I mean, have you found that even certain personality types kind of weathered COVID, the COVID polarization storm differently? Well, yeah. But I mean, there's no question. It's been hard on everyone. This is the unusual thing about this season. And I think when we get distance from it and we look back, as a pastor, people are always wanting to meet with me or I'm always meeting with people who are going through difficult times. You know, people don't generally reach

out to tell you that their business is going great and their marriage is good. You know, they meet with you when their marriage is going terrible or they've had a cancer diagnosis or they're, you know, there's some sort of challenge that's going on in their lives and they want to meet with you so there's there's always people who've been having a difficult time but never has there been a season where we're all having a difficult time right so like everyone all at one time is suffering and um and and so that has produced something you know i think about the way that jesus closed the sermon on the mount was with the the the story of the two builders man he built his house on the sand and then man he built his house on the rock and both houses look exactly the same until the storm comes and the storm is what actually reveals the foundation.

You were completely unaware of any issues with foundation prior to the storm. And so what has happened is that we have found ourselves in a storm, and some people have been able to double down because their lives are built on a rock, and so many people are getting washed away, and they're crashing, as Jesus said. Because the distinction, Jesus says, is those who hear those words of mine and puts them into practice is like a man who builds his house on a rock or the sand the only distinction is putting into practice right it's like talking about church people who don't actually live it they all hear these words of mine but they don't put them into practice their houses are on sand and we've seen a ton of that you know i preached on the four soils this past week and the second soil

where jesus uh you know he's talking about the solar and how it's shallow and they fall away because there was no root i think that's like a third of the american church right now you know some trans uh some studies have, I think a Barna study found that 30 something percent of active churchgoers have completely disengaged post COVID or during COVID. So you could say that like, these are the people when times of testing come, Jesus says, they fall away because they have no root. Well, I think that you've got a third of the American church that is potentially in the second soil. You've probably got another third of the American church that's in the thorny soil, which is what? Worries, riches, and pleasures, and they do not mature, Jesus said.

Or they're unfruitful, another gospel says. So how much of the American church is filled with worries, riches, and pleasures, and they're just immature people? So something like COVID comes, and it just shakes everyone. The thing that's been good, well, good, I don't know good, but one of the things that I've observed is that people are more hungry to be shepherded through the moment they're in than any time that I've been doing this. It's sort of like they're coming or they're tuning

in or whatever. And they're like, pastor, please, please give me something that I can hold onto because I've lost my job. My wife's got COVID. My parents are, you know, vulnerable, you know, and they're just like everywhere around them, they're terrified. And they're like, man, I need Jesus more than ever. So those, those, the extreme polarized voices that think you're the devil or Jesus or whatever, like you would, that's more of a smaller percentage of fringe kind of louder voices. Would you say like, as you're,

I'm just going to going back to that moment when the cop came into your office and I was kind of a low point and you had like as you're i'm just going back to that moment when the the cop came into your office and i was kind of a low point and you had people criticizing you on both sides the majority do you think though but the silent majority kind of almost needed you more than ever during this time yeah i mean i often think about it as like 80 percent are just wanting to be with you and follow this is This is my church. This is how I'd experience. Some people might have different percentages. 80% of the church are just going, whitehead, we're with you, lead us.

Right. And they're encouraged and they're encouraging and they'll send me texts or emails or whatever and go, man, this is a really, really hard year and we just want you to know that we're with you and we're following your conviction. Like I've had a lot of that. and and i'm thankful for that i've got um i've got 10 of people who uh who are hating what i'm doing and they're and they're completely mad, you know. And, you know, they want to be out and they're going to leave the church and many of them have. And then there's another 10% who are just like my fanboys. And they're just like, so you sort of got, you got people on either side, people who think that, you know, I've done the best job ever of leading through COVID. You've got people who think I've done the worst job ever but the middle majority of people who just kind of go on

yeah i mean we're with you and and like keep leading thanks we'll keep tithing and we'll keep serving as best we can and so so going back to that time when the police officer came into your office low point up until now what have you you done maybe since then to help navigate the tensions, you know, with race and election and all that? Well, we, we speak to it often. Okay. So, you know, when, when it came to the election, you know, I didn't tell people which way to vote. We have Democrats and Republicans in our church and people who don't care. You know, I didn't tell people which way to vote, but I sort of led them through a way where they could prayerfully consider how to vote.

And then I'm trying to cultivate unity. to cultivate unity and you know like we should really identify as the people of god as as uh as as israel right often we identify and we think of ourselves as as israel living in the promised land when i think that we are more like the israelites living in babylon Babylon. And that's easy for me because I'm actually not from here. I am actual alien in the United States. And I'm reminded of that every day. But so, you know, when it comes to the issues of politics and such, I think to be reminding people that we are the people of God and that we should have more in common with our brothers and sisters in Christ than people who belong to our own political persuasion or the other side. I read something earlier this morning where someone said, this is an interesting thought. They said, you know, I hear all the time about people leaving their church because of politics. I don't ever hear of people leaving their politics

because of their church. And I think like, what an interesting way of thinking about that, right? Yeah. I'm always the one where, like as a shepherd, I'm trying to cultivate unity in our church. And that has not been easy in this season.

But I do think speaking to the complexity publicly is what I do. I sort of invite people into the tension of the moment. And that's actually been quite helpful. Yeah. And the race conversation, have you had different voices on stage and stuff? Like how have you handled that? Because if it's just some, your white pastor kind of addressing that, I could see where that will never always go well. in my opinion is is is the most gifted communicator i've ever heard on helping a

white audience understand the complexities of this issue without triggering them okay it's just you know and i and i get the different sides of the arguments and all that kind of stuff. But just in the art of communication, right? In the art of trying to be understood, he's the best I've ever seen in helping a white audience not be triggered and to be able to listen to why are we talking about this? Why is this a problem? Why is this a problem? Why is this like, he's really, really good at that. That's good.

Yeah. So now are people, the kind of, you know, the polarized ends of the spectrum, have some of the edges been shaved off of there? Maybe angst or anger or feeling like you're not handling this well, like in the last eight months whatever is it a lot more of a positive vibe now um yeah it's definitely a different moment but a lot of the moment is is displaced irritation right so so in the middle of covid people are watching their respective favorite news channel on cable news or podcast. And if they're watching Fox News or CNN or whatever it is, they're gathering their talking points and collecting their confirmation bias. But they're agitated, right? Yeah. And so I've never seen before a season where people are already hovering at an eight or a nine out of 10

in just irritability before they've even come into the church. You know, like, like it's kind of like everyone collectively was idling higher during 2020. And so the smallest thing caused someone to snap, people snapping at each other left and right. And it's kind of displaced anger. It's displaced irritability. That has all come down. It's not certainly not zero, but I mean, it's not what it was. And I think that people feel like, and it's different in different parts of the country and certainly in different parts of the world, but people feel like that there is a post-COVID season in sight. There's at least a sense that some semblance of normalcy is going to return.

There's probably going to be some things that never return, but there is going to be. We're going to actually be able to close out the COVID season and talk about it like it happened, not like it's happening. So that has definitely cooled down a little bit. It's not the same degree of intensity. Yeah. Yeah, idling high.

That's great. And yeah, I've sensed that too. I wonder how much of that would be there or would have been there if people like if if you say go go on a news fast for a month like how much of that is just being fed not just by news as a thing but the manner in which news has been presented like i just read neil postman's book uh amusingusing Ourselves to Death, which he emphasizes. Which is like 30 years old. Oh, and it's like he's woke up from his grave, wrote the book, and then went back. I mean, it's unbelievable. But the very mode of presentation shapes the message itself.

And the very mode of presentation shapes you. So you take these different news outlets, which we would all admit, right, are very biased. They've got a narrative they're trying to confirm, and some are maybe more honest than others. But yeah, if you're watching Fox News and then CNN, you feel like you're living on two different planets, right? And the news has the ability, I mean, what you choose to report on, what aspects of this event you chose to highlight, which ones you didn't talk about.

That has a profound narrative shape to it. So when people are just drinking, they're already scared. There's already a lot of turmoil, a lot of angst, and then a lot of fear. And then you have a news outlet that knows that they're losing money. They need more clicks to pay the bills. So they're shaping their very presentation to harness your agitation that's already there. Exactly right. It's brilliant.

I mean, it's brilliant. If you're a non-Christian marketer, it's like, of course you would do that. You already know how people are wired. This is basic psychology. But it's like Christians, what if we just snap that cycle? Right. Well, in addition to that, there is something that is baked into American politics that other countries don't have. So I say this as an alien respectfully to the American politics. But in Australia, voting is mandatory, right? It's compulsory.

You get fined if you don't vote. Really? Right? So you think about the amount of time and marketing that is spent on trying to motivate the base to come out and vote because they don't have to. Americans don't have to vote, right? So extremism is what motivates people., pushing people to the polar edges, like if Biden gets in, it's the end of Christian America or it's the end of the church or it is like, you know, and if Trump gets in, it's the end of decency or, you know, I mean, it's just like whatever it is, it's extreme. I mean it's just like whatever it is, it's extreme. And most people, by the way, are far more moderate than that.

Most people when you sit down with them, they're kind of far more reasonable than what is represented on the polar extremes. But extremism is what raises money. Extremism is what motivates people to action. Extremism is what gets people out to vote and so uh you end up watching as you said two different worlds and they're pushed to the edges so far on the edge well in australian politics which is by the way far from perfect there is zero zero time spent on motivating the base and to get them out to vote because they all have to vote. So it ends up being far more talking about policy than trying to terrify people to get them out to vote. Oh my gosh, that's a huge difference right there.

That's huge. I find even in the UK, there's always polarized voices and everything, but even there it was more, I don't know, you had more people who would, you lean left, lean right, but if a more left-wing outlet, if something happened that maybe challenged a left-wing narrative, the left-wing news outlet would report on it. It would be like you would hear about it and vice versa. It did seem a bit more journalistically honest in the UK.

Again, far from perfect. But yeah, I treat news almost like I treat Netflix now. It's almost like entertaining it's almost like entertaining, not the content of what they're reporting, but the man, just the whole war that's going on. It's just like, really? Like you're going to mention that event and not mention this aspect of that event.

Like it's just so blatantly narrative driven, you know? And, but man, yeah, I, so I deleted all my news out. I just, I don't, I listened to podcasts. Even those can be, those can on a lesser level, depending on which one you listen to do the same thing, but a long form discussion, you know, with two people who are willing to push back on each other, or at least challenge like that hour, two hour, three hour long, you know,

you just get a different take. I remember listening to, um, you know, Joe Rogan, you know, he'll, he'll have anybody on his podcast. Well, he had like Bernie, Bernie Sanders on for an hour. It's like, who, who has ever listened to Bernie Sanders for an hour? Like, and actually explain and Joe would be no pushback. And what about this? What about that? Like, so I find those avenues a little better. And then he'll have Ben Shapiro on after that. Yeah, totally. You know, and I mean, totally. I think the resonance that Joe Rogan is having with his podcast is indicative of the fatigue that people are finding with the general cable news networks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is hopeful. I think people are deep down longing for something more thoughtful, more reasonable. I think people, most people, there's something provoked in a good way in the human heart when they see two people who disagree do so in a more humble, humanizing manner. oh gosh who's the the conservative gay commentator what's his name i'm blanking on it uh andrew sullivan andrew sullivan yeah andrew sullivan yeah he loves to have people on his podcast that he's has disagreement and it's so and he'll push back he'll say you know it can get somewhat not tense but like he's not afraid to like you know challenge but man they humanize each other at the end of every podcast he's just just like, thank you so much. I know we disagree, but I now see where you're coming from.

I could see where somebody would see it that way. And thank you. It's just such a better way to have conversations across really important issues. Anyway. Yeah, it seems like we have definitely lost civility in the midst of confirmation bias.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Hey, you got a sermon to prepare for. And I'm sure you have a thousand and one people that are probably emailed you during this podcast. But man, thanks so much for being on Theology in Iran. And man, I appreciate your heart, your leadership during these tough times. Man, thanks for having me on, bro. man thanks for having me on bro I really just respect you

and your calling and the way you handle God's word and the way you help people understand theology and the times that we're living in and so like you're doing important work man and I really appreciate it thank you thank you man

means a lot coming from you bro Thank you.