Theology in the Raw - A Case for Co-Vocational Ministry: Eric Hoke

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Eric Hoke is the Founder and Director of Business Development at I Help Pastors Get Jobs. He helps pastors and ministry leaders build sustainable ministries without money stress. Eric is also the author of Market Street Pastor: Ministry Sustainability without Money Stress,which forms the backdrop to our conversation.  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Logos. Logos is the premier Bible study software. I use Logos almost every single day. I have for many years. In fact, I've been a huge fan of Logos long before they started sponsoring Theology in the Raw. Logos not only gives you a massive theological library right at your fingertips,

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who are already using Logos. And okay, so they just released a new version and it's more affordable than ever. And here's the thing. You can try it for free for 30 days. And if you go to logos.com forward slash theology, you can take advantage of an exclusive theology in the raw extended two month free trial. So go try it, try it out. It's risk-free. Go check it out. Logos.com forward slash theology. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. My guest today is Eric Hoke, who is the founder and director of business development at I help pastors

get jobs. Okay. You got to check out his organization. It's really awesome. Eric helps pastors and ministry leaders build sustainable ministries without money stress. And he's an advocate for what he calls what others have called co-vocational ministry, which is what this episode is all about. Really, really enjoyed this conversation. Eric is also the author of the recent, his first book market street pastor ministry sustainability without money stress. If this conversation interests you, then I would encourage you to check out that book. Really, really enjoyed talking to Eric. As you will see, he's a very down to earth guy. He's had lots of ministry experience and also

co-vocational ministry experience. So he is speaking from his own experience. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Eric. Hi, Eric. Welcome to theology and raw for the first time that I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. The topic we're going to discuss is one that I've been thinking through for a while. I personally have never been challenged or affected by the possibility of bivocational ministries. I'd never been in full-time pastoral ministry. But as a model, I'm very intrigued by it. Why don't we start by... I'm sure there's a backstory to this, how you came to write a book on bivocational ministry or convocational ministry. Where did this come from? What's the backstory here? Yeah. Yeah. The backstory is I spent seven years, the last seven years, 2016 to 2023

as a convocational church planter in the South Bronx of New York City. So for those listeners who aren't familiar, the South Bronx is a historically underserved community in New York City, which is the most expensive city in the world. So it doesn't take an economics major to realize pretty quickly that if you're planting a church from scratch in a historically disenfranchised community, there's not a whole lot of money in that. And just, you know, this theology in the raw, so we'll get really raw. Our rent for our two-bedroom apartment in the Bronx, this was not like Richie neighborhood in Manhattan. This was not Sex in the City of Manhattan. This was the Bronx, was three grand a month. You know, just for your apartment, just to like pay your rent is already that. So I realized pretty quickly, I'm going to

try out this whole buy Vokovo thing to kind of keep the ministry going, keep my family sustained. I'm a father of three girls. So there was a lot of that as well. And I ended up just really falling in love with it. It kind of gave me a foot in the marketplace, a foot in ministry. And I was actually able to begin coaching and training other pastors and other ministry leaders who were like, hey, I love Jesus. I love my church, but I can't pay my bills because 60, 70% of the income coming in is going towards my salary. What can I do? So, a market street pastor was sort of the A to Z. All you've ever been is in ministry. You don't know how to message or rebrand yourself for the marketplace. Here's how to do it. So that was the impetus behind writing the book. Were you near like Yankee stadium? Yeah, dude, I live so close to Yankee stadium that

I'd watch a game and I just like kind of get annoyed because like in the nice months, like in October when the Yankees always play every year, shout out to them. I'd have the window, I'd have the window open and I would see the ball get thrown, Aaron Judge, they're ready to hit it. And I would hear the crowd roar before he hit the ball. So, I would know he was going to get a hit before he even hit it because that one second lag on the TV. So, we lived there for four years. 156 Gerrard Avenue, Yankee Stadium is 161 River. My daughter played soccer in the shadow of Yankee Stadium. That's how close you were. Yeah. Then we moved a little bit further south, different story there. But yeah, we lived really close to the stadium for a while. I'm impressed that

you know that Preston. I've been knows about the Bronx. I was just there. We, we, we went to a Yankee game in September and we stayed in a hotel in South Bronx. If it was right off one of the Metro, like with whatever the Metro is, it goes, it's the second stop south of Yankee stadium. Oh yeah. I know what you're talking about. Pretty sketchy area, man. I mean, it's right there by the, yeah, by the big Plaza where they have like BJs and target and all that. And okay. Yeah. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. Yep. One 49th street. My parents are staying at the hotel. Yeah. The rooms are about looking at jail cell basically. Yes. Yes, exactly. I know what you're under underneath the train tracks.

Yep. I know what you mean. You're not going to go out at two in the morning in that neighborhood. No, no. I went out and grabbed some pizza and brought it back to the hotel. And yeah, it was, it was fun. I mean, it wasn't, you know, I've been in sketchier areas, but it was definitely like, yeah, I wouldn't, that'd be a little rough to raise. Yeah. Three daughters. I've got three daughters too. Oh cool. Yeah. They stayed in the hotel room. Wow. That's cool, man. So, um, uh, so many questions about this. So what was like, yeah, what, what was your marketplace job? Like what did you, what did you do? Yeah, yeah. I had, I had two of my first marketplace jobs. I worked for a company as a third-party contracted leadership and training coach.

So I traveled around North America. It was a perfect job for a convocational pastor because it would be like, hey, Eric, we got a company in Montreal. They want to learn about feedback. Do you want to fly up there, give a workshop on feedback? We'll pay you two grand. Like, yeah, that sounds great. So I fly out like a Monday afternoon, spend all day Tuesday there, come home Tuesday evening, and that was it for the whole entire week. That was all that I did. So I was able to kind of do that for four years. This thing called COVID-19 happened and all of that line of work just completely went down the toilet. So I got to find a new job. So I ended up going into workforce development and now I work for a company that trains underserved young adults, 18, 29 year olds for the workplace.

So I was just in Austin last week, working with some younger adults. These are folks who are first generation immigrants coming from underserved communities, working at retail jobs or fast food. And now we're preparing them for internships and ultimately jobs at places like Apple and Amazon and Salesforce.

So that's kind of what I do, training, learning and development, workforce development. That's my lane and I do my day job. So this seems like this fits within your skillset as a pastor. Like it's not quote unquote ministry, but it's kind of adjacent to that. When you talk about convocational ministry, are you wanting pastors to explore another vocation that is kind of directly related to their gifts as a pastor? Or is it go flip burgers at Burger King or something? Or does it really matter? Well, one of the chapters in the book,

chapter two is called Discovery, and it seeks to answer that question, right? Because here's the thing is, if you are a full-time pastor listening, you decide, oh, I want to get a second job, earn some more money. If you go out and get a job that you hate, that's going to be a detriment to you, to your family, to your ministry. It's not worth the cost. So what I do is I kind of work with pastors to figure out, okay, how has God uniquely wired you? What skills has He given you? Pursue jobs in those fields because He wanted to, what

you said, Preston, kind of complement your ministry work. And there are some that do like this training and speaking and coaching, which is, I guess you could say equivalent to ministry, but project management is equivalent to ministry as well. Sales is equivalent to ministry. Working for a nonprofit is equivalent to ministry. Those are kind of the four lanes we tell pastors to explore as they make their first step out of full-time vocational ministry into a marketplace job. Okay. I've got a lot more questions about kind of like how to do it, what kind of job a pastor can get, but let's, why don't we go back and start with why? What, in principle, what are the, we'll just say pros and cons of co-vocational ministry. And maybe we can start with why you, do you prefer co-vocational, not bivocational? And what's the difference there?

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, man. I think, you know, co-vocational, bivocation, you have to give credit where credit is due. Brad Briscoe is the one who sort of coined the term co-vocational. And the easiest way to describe it for my peanut brain is by vocational as a pastor who's like, hey, I have a second job, but my goal is to go full-time. Like I'm just doing this first season, but by God's grace, the church will grow to a size large enough and enough money is coming

into the offering plate that I can quit this other job and focus on being a pastor full-time, which is fine. Plenty of people are that. God is using bivocational pastors. If that's your strategy, more power to you. Co-vocational pastor is someone who says, even if the church could pay me a full-time salary, I would still stay in my day job because I view that as part of my ministry. And this is not just a temporary placeholder. This is a long-term strategy to minister both in the marketplace and in the local church.

Co-vocational captures more the in principle I'm pursuing this, not out of some unfortunate necessity or something. Yeah, precisely. Okay. Pros and cons. What are the top pros of pastors being in co-vocational ministry? Yeah, I mean the top pro that I have found is that I've done both. I've been in full-time ministry. I've done a co-vocational when I was in full-time ministry, and some of this was my own, my own fault. I'm not saying this was anybody's fault of my own. I put a lot of pressure on myself to be the guy that did everything right. Like I was the one I would do everything from writing

the sermons to picking up the order from Costco to setting up the chairs for service to vacuuming the rug. When we finished the worship gathering, like I did A to Z and my logic, which was flawed, was well, I'm paid to be here, nobody else is, therefore I have to do everything A to Z. And I found myself very like burnt out and overwhelmed and why am I doing every little odd and end thing? As a convocational pastor, I can't do that. I have to really focus in

on what can only I do and everything else I have to delegate. And really, if you want to get geeky here, you know, Ephesians 412, Paul says to the church, you know, the pastor equips the saints to do the work of the ministry. And for me, if you're a convocational pastor, you have no choice but to equip the saints. And we were in the Bronx, we were in a mobile church, so we just set up and tear down every Sunday in a school there in the Bronx. And I never had to twist the arms of any of the men in my church to stay after service to help me tear down because they all knew, Eric is going to get up tomorrow morning just like I am. He's going to shower, he's going to get dressed, he's going to go to work just like I am.

Whereas when I was in a mobile church as a full-time pastor, it was like, you said, amen, and they were off to the races. And all the staff were left tearing everything down. So I really found that the church that I led that was convocational was smaller in size, but a lot of ways more people activated on mission because they recognize my pastor is going to go to work tomorrow just like I am. So to me, that's the biggest, the biggest pro of being convocational. I think the biggest con is just that you just can't please everybody. Like some people join your church because they think, oh, there's only 40 folks here. I'm going to have access

to the pastor. You're not going to have access to the pastor if he's working 40 hours a week somewhere else. So I think that's probably the biggest con that people have to really, really weigh if they choose this path. Not enough time to give to all the needs that people expect you to. Precisely. Which I mean, both the pro and the con kind of are related to each other because if the pro is correct, or if there's something of value there that everybody should be involved in ministry and you're, you're, you're helping lead that, but you're not doing it for them. Then that also, if people expect, well, you're the pastor, I want to meet with you. If I didn't help, I'd go to the pastor. Well, no, there's other people here that can fill that

gap. It seems like it's kind of a, both, both of those are related. What are some other, well, actually on the con, cause this is a question I had convocational. Let's just say you're okay. I can give 20 hours a week to ministry. What falls out? Like, what are some of the things that can't get that you, as somebody who is in both, has been in both worlds, full-time industry, convocational, what are the things that you just did, couldn't do as a convocational pastor that you could have, could be doing as a full-time pastor? Yeah. So what are the last meetings or not preaching as much? Well, definitely both actually. Yeah. Both of those. So one of the things is that when our last two or three years as a church, myself and my executive pastor split the preaching load 50-50. So, I only

preached 24, 25 times a year. And for some people listening, they might think, oh my gosh, isn't the pastor supposed to preach every Sunday? It's like, well, according to who, you know? And not to mention, if you really want to get theology in the raw about it, the executive pastor was Mexican-American and was single. I'm a white guy married with three kids. So it gave a more robust picture of experiencing God because here's two different people, two very different life experiences, sharing how the Scripture is talking to them, which I think was fantastic. And one of the things I coach pastors on, Preston, is I say, all right, you cannot be

convocational and do business as usual. So one really simple way to begin this process is make a three-column system. Column one is things that only I can do as the pastor. Column two is things I can delegate to somebody else. Column three is things I can eliminate altogether because they just don't push the mission forward. They're just busy work. And what ends up happening when they come back after our coaching session is they realize, well, column one is really, really short. I said, yeah, imagine that. You know, column three is really, really long. Yeah. Imagine that. We find ourselves busying ourselves with work so often, we realize

we've missed the first principles of why we got into ministry in the first place. So I think recognizing what's the things that only I can do, everything else I can delegate, everything else I'll eliminate, and I'll have a more focused view of my ministry and my impact. That's interesting. I'm curious if you found that having been in both roles, if when you're in your co-vocational role, you realize that you are maybe doing things when you're in a full-time role that you, that you didn't necessarily need to do. Um, it may, it may, I dunno. My question makes me think of John Mark Comber. You know, John

Mark Comber, um, he's he famously, if you've ever emailed John Mark Comber, he checked his email for two hours, like a Monday afternoon every week. That's it. And his little response like, Hey, uh, yeah, I check it once a week. So, uh, It has a little response like, Hey, yeah, I check it once a week. So I'll get to it, you know, within the next week or something. And he said, admittedly, he doesn't mind me sharing this. He said it was so frustrated for everybody when he was, when he was in full-time ministry before, because it's like, well, I need an answer by Tuesday about something of like, we know like John Marks, I can get back to you for seven days. But he said, he said, what happened is by the time I went

to check my email, most of the time that urgent thing that needed to be addressed kind of got done like it, or it wasn't as urgent as people realize, or I didn't need to spend, you know, a few hours a day on email. Like it just kind of got done. And part of it was like, well, yeah, because other people stepped in and they had to, but, but, you know, like that's when you're not available, I just, or you just don't have the time to put into this meeting and, and this three hour meeting and this thing, this thing that, you know, like, I just wonder if some of those things weren't as necessary for the health of the ministry as maybe you would have thought

when you were in full-time ministry. Is that making sense? I've got a few questions. That makes perfect sense to me, man. Eugene Peterson, who's one of my favorite authors, he has a quote that I remember reading it and then just like noodling on it for like a year or two because I didn't quite understand it. Took me about that long to finally think I understood what he meant. He said, you are at your pastoral best when you go unnoticed. I thought that is such a profound line because I think in the celebrity culture

and Instagram real culture we're in, it's that, you know, in shape guy with the word flashing of his preaching and that's what we think a pastor is. Or as a pastor, someone like John Mark who says, hey, listen, I know this is urgent to you, but the body of Christ is going to work together to fulfill that need for you. And I'm here to shepherd and guide. Like, that's what a pastor does. Now, one story from my own ministry is we

had a family in our church text me. They say, Hey, we just came down with COVID. We're not doing so well. Please pray for us. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely going to pray. And my first stop was not, let me go in my car and drive over there and pray for them. My first stop was, let me text somebody else from the church, say, hey, she's a stay-at-home wife. She loves to cook. Do you mind making some soup and driving that over to them and dropping it off in the next day or two? And that's what she did. And it was an opportunity for her to go over there safely, not with masks and everything like this, but bless them. And that required nothing of me other than a text. So maybe they wanted me to show up to their house

and pray for them, but I realized after being convocational for about five minutes that I can't do that. That's impossible. So being able to delegate and empower my team to handle out the work of the ministry is a really important skill for pastors to do, whether you're a full-time or a covo, to be honest. I had a buddy who is a convocational, I think he called it bivocational years ago, but he said,

man, whenever he did like a hospital visit or a home visit at night, because he's working during the day, it meant so much more to the people because they knew he was, this isn't the kind of part of his nine to five. Like this is part of my duty as a pastor to do this. It was like, he's taking time out of his own personal life after work to come and pay a hospital visit or whatever. And it just, it just, it's just presence. He didn't even need to sail whole lives. Just him being there just meant a ton. What are some other pros of convocational ministry? Yeah, man. I think what it really does is it forces you as a pastor to get out of the

ivory tower of your office and your study and to rub shoulders with real people. I don't want to step on anybody's toes here, but I might buy this story and I'm going to pick up myself first. When I was a full-time pastor, I did not know the name of my next-door neighbor. Okay, so here I am a full-time pastor. This is my job, but I can't tell you the person who lives next door to me. I couldn't tell you, like the elders of that church, what they did Monday through Friday from 8 to 5. I just was so out of touch with the world because I was so much dialed into my calling as it were. So I think when you kind of leave that mental space

of being a pastor and go be an employee, go be a neighbor, go be a friend, even just picking up a hobby, something, it just not only is it good for your ministry, it's also good for your soul. One of the interesting stats about convocational or Bivokational pastors is they actually are more satisfied in their ministry. Really?

Yeah, they actually have higher rates of enjoying ministry. And I was thinking about that and I talked to a friend about it and he said, the reason why Covok pastors are happier is because functionally, every week they leave ministry because they go do their job, their other job. So they kind of get out the stress and the pressure. I can't sit around on a Monday morning and ruminate that, you know, eight to less people came to church yesterday than the week before. I don't have time for that. I don't think I got a job to go to. So I think that, you know, that's one of the biggest benefits is getting out, meeting people, knowing their story.

And if there's a pastor listening to this who's full time, one call to action is this week, go take someone from your church out for lunch, like near where they work. And say like, you come to where I work every single week, you hear me preach. Like, what's your work week look like? Like, who do you work with?

Like, what do you do? Like, what goes on in that office building or that warehouse or that manufacturing plant plant because I'm clueless. I'd be okay with admitting that. Wow. That's good. What about another pro I can imagine is, I mean, just the, the, the financial, um, what I want to say like, like the, the, the stress it takes off of the financial burden of the

church, you know, I mean, cause I don't know. I've often thought like, and I'm not, you know, yeah, I think it is what it is. Like, like sometimes not all the time, the money issue within the cycle of ministry can, can, can be a challenge for doing ministry when, you know, your church grits more people than you need a building or a bigger building that costs money. Then you need to hire people. people than you need a building or a bigger building that costs money. Then you need to hire people. And then you preach a sermon that three of your biggest donors didn't like they leave and like, Oh crap.

Now, you know, like do it like, or, or a pandemic hits. It all sudden half the people are gone. Like, you know, it, it, the financial incentive, if that's even the right term, I think, you know what I mean, of ministry can be problematic. Like if you ever have to make a ministry decision based on will this financially hurt the church, I think that starts to get a little bit, I don't know. But I would imagine if you have another source of income, maybe even a primary source of income that I would assume that might free you up a little bit to do ministry more. Again,

I don't want to pick my terms carefully here more with less financial incentive. How's that? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's fair. I would, I would put a little bit of color into that and say, there are full-time pastors who, who preach boldly and who are courageous and don't let the, the tail wag the dog as it were. And then there's also, there's also, there's also covo guys who are just, and gals who are just afraid of conflict and afraid of people leaving. And they, you know, that's not necessarily where you're getting your money from. That's more of an inner issue. But yes, that's good. That's the first part. The second part is yes. That's your question. Absolutely. Because here's the thing, man. If you like, not every church, not every pastor knows who gives what. Okay.

And a lot of churches I led, like we didn't know who gave what. But when the guy rolls up on a Sunday in a, in a BMW and the the guy rolls up on a Sunday in a BMW and the other guy rolls up in a Toyota Tacoma, you can kind of put two and two together of kind of who's giving what. And I think if you're not careful, it can be very easy to play that political pandering. Let me not preach on the sin that the BMW driving member has. Because to your point, man, I mean, listen, if you, let's just suppose, you know, let's tease out your scenario. Let's suppose your church gets to a point where you need to buy a new building. Now you have a mortgage. Now you

have staff. Now you have their payroll. Now other people's families' livelihoods are relying on your ability to bring in ties and offerings. That's pressure. That's the same pressure that a CEO might feel. Just like a CEO can't go onto a podcast and just talk nonsense, unless they're Elon Musk, but he's in his own category. Like you have an obligation to your staff, to your shareholders.

And I think pastors as well have to be mindful. Like I have an obligation to my faith community. So yes, I found it to be a little bit easier because for me, if somebody walked away from the church, I led all saints that was not going to sink the ship because my primary source of income was my job. And my wife and I were the biggest givers to our church. So it was like, I don't know. I couldn't be beholden to, to a power broker. And that, that was, that was nice. I don't want to be that. I mean, honestly, I feel that tension because I, I mean, I have like two, two kind of ministry

situations. I'm, I'm, I'm a president of a nonprofit that deals with sexuality and gender questions. And I also do this podcast and write books and stuff. And sometimes I will have, you know, I don't think this is how or how if it's happened, I'm not aware of it, but it very well could happen where I say something on the podcast or I hold to a certain theological view over here that my say donors to my ministry over here don't like, even though they like what I'm doing over here in the nonprofit, like, wait, you believe what I'm not going to get, you know? And then I have people on our payroll that I'm, I feel responsible for. Like if our ministry, our nonprofit takes

a hit because I'm talking crap over here and saying something that's making people mad that could affect our finances for the ministry. I, but I just, I, I, so I, I guess I feel that I don't pay. I know that I'm talking about it. I'm being more aware of it, but I just, I just refuse. I just refuse to the best of my ability to let money determine my beliefs or what I'm going to do or say in ministry. You know, so yeah, that's really well said. Yeah. I agree. I mean, hopefully it's the thing too, man. Like you'd hope whether it's a donor to your ministry or whether it's a church member in a pastor's church, if something did happen where they're like,

I wasn't so crazy about that, it'd be a conversation and an opportunity to kind of get closer together as opposed to making my money, I'm done with Preston, I'm done with Eric. You'd hope that would happen. Right, yeah, yeah. And I just, I think the church,

and we've been so blessed by especially a few, especially early on when they started the nonprofit, some donors that, man, these are some of the most, I mean, you know, they're people with means, but they are so godly and humble. And I've never, ever felt any kind of air of, all right, we're going to donate, but make sure you do, do, do, do. Like I just could not, but that, that's, that's pretty normal though. In Christian ministries, I, in my anecdotal experience, talking to other people that people with power and money sometimes will use that to get the pastor to say this or not say that. And that, that, Oh, I just couldn't be in that environment. We're getting off the topic though. What, what are some common, uh, bivocational jobs, sorry, convocational jobs that a pastor that

you found that pastors are typically good at and are able to get? Cause I know I would imagine a lot of pastors who might even be interested in going convocational like, I don't know what else to do. I went to seminary, I didn't go to business school. What do I, I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. So kind of going back to that earlier question about like, what, like, how did you, how did I figure out what was next for me professionally?

A lot of it is doing self inventory and self assessment. How has God uniquely wired me as a human being, even before being a pastor, just as a human. And like, what things in my work, in my ministry do I enjoy that bring me life? And what things in my work, in my ministry drain me that I can't stand? So the four-step process, the four-part framework that I walk pastors through is called the heart, the head, the hands, the feet. And the heart is, if you're a person who's really oriented towards compassion and care and justice and writing the world, you should pursue a career in a not-for-profit.

That's the easiest kind of transition point for pastors. Churches obviously in America are 501c3s. A lot of not-for-profits have Christians working in them already. A lot of them were founded by Christians, like the YMCA, for example, was Young Man's Christian Association. So not-for-profit is kind of the easiest branch to swing to. That's the heart. The head, if you're more academic, you're more cerebral, you like writing, reading, teaching, training, coaching,

pursuit of career and learning and development or training. That's what I did. I'm somebody who likes reading books and listening to podcasts. I spend every Sunday afternoon on my back patio reading the Wall Street Journal and drinking coffee. That's just kind of who I am. So a role in learning and development made sense for my wiring.

Going down to the hands, fixing things, tinkering with things, managing multiple priorities, managing multiple stakeholders, pursuing a career in project management. That could be a great path to explore. That's all different domains of work. Everyone from hospitals to IT to construction, like you name it, they need project managers. And if you can sort of- And real quick, do you need to have an expertise

in that field? I'm just curious, because I know nothing about that. Like- Well, the funny thing is the, kind of the hallmark certification for project management is project management professional. You can use your ministry experience to sit for that exam and get that in a resume. And someone listening to this, you could do that in two or three months. I did that in 2020 during COVID when I was bored. So you can get a PMP and that can give you something on a resume beyond

just Bible college or seminary to say, okay, I'm serious about this career. And the last one, going down to your feet, you like moving, you like grooving, you like talking on the phone, knocking on doors. You should pursue a career in sales. And a lot of pastors kind of get their back up a little bit when I say that, but I say, hey, listen, if you've been in ministry, you've been in sales. I mean, you're not selling a product or a service, but you're selling an idea. Every single time you preach, every single time you try to recruit

someone to join a team, you're persuading them to do so. And I'll tell you this, man, and I just always feel kind of bad, but when I talk to my pastor friends who took that route in sales, I'm really mad that God did not make me more tenacious because those sales guys are making a lot of freaking money. So you're making how much now? You were a pastor a year ago. So that's the first answer to the question. The second one is you can't always find an equivalent job in the marketplace that you have in ministry. So a lot of pastors have to kind of sober up and realize just because I've done fantastic things in ministry doesn't mean I'm going to start off as like a director or senior director or a VP in a company. I just start a little bit lower in the corporate chain as it were, and

then work my way up. And that's one thing I think a lot of pastors, it's like a bitter pill to swallow, but I think a sobering truth that you cannot just say, well, I was an executive pastor at a thousand person church, therefore I'll go be a, you know, a CEO for this nonprofit. It probably won't work that way. You probably need to find some sort of middle ground in between those two jobs. Are pastors able to get a job that's like a 20, 25 hour a week job? Or when you say convocational, is it like 40 hour a week and then like they're still putting on 15, 20 in ministry?

Yeah, man. So different people have different perspectives on this. I'm actually a big fan of the full-time job for a convocational pastor. And the reason why I'm a big fan of it is because of leverage. So when I was working as a consultant, traveling to different cities and speaking, basically every day I worked was my very first day on the job. So that was like showing up, these are complete strangers, they don't know me, I don't know them. I have to kind of do the horse and pony show.

I make my money, I go home, and then I rinse and repeat the following day or the following week, whenever it was. When you have that full-time job, what you're doing is you're putting deposits of trust into your boss's bank, into your boss's boss's bank, into your client's bank, and as six months, 12 months, 18 months progress,

you'll be able to get some more freedom to say, hey, can I work from home one or two days a week? Hey, can I just cut out a little bit early on Wednesdays because I got a small group I'm leading? Oh, hey, I got a phone call. Betty Lou's in the hospital. Can I go over there at 11 o'clock on Friday and go see her? And that gives you that freedom to do that.

Whereas if you're working, let's just say, in the gig economy, you don't quite have that same, that same leverage. So most of my work and co-locational life was remote as well. I'm working remote right now, as you can see by my messy house behind me. And that gives me the freedom. Like it's two 38 here in Pennsylvania. I'm going to hang up with you and have another meeting at four 30, but I have the next hour and a half block free to kind of do what I need to do in my day job. Well, how do you have enough time? I mean, 60 hours a week of work. That's a lot. And I imagine ministry sometimes, Hey, we're going to hire you for 15 hours a week. It's like, yeah, right. I mean, you may pay you for 15 hours, but that's typically going to bleed

into a 20, 25 hour work week. I mean, is, is the model you're proposing just a pretty, is it a 60 to 70 hour a week work week? I'm not proposing that. No, I do not want anybody to listening to this. The work 70 hours a week. What I am proposing is that you look for jobs in the knowledge economy where you're paid for your output, not for your hours worked. So if you have a job at Wendy's flipping burgers like I did when I was in high school, I can't go to Wendy's at 11 for 11 to eight shifts and say, okay, I flipped enough burgers to last us till eight, I'm going to go home now. But if you have a job in the knowledge

economy where it's like, hey, here's the things you're paid to do, here's your outputs, and you get all those outputs done by 2pm. Most jobs, healthy work environments are like, hey, listen, as long as we can get ahold of you, your phone call, your email is on your phone, your Slack is on your phone, go do what you need to do. And that's one of the things that I think a lot of people don't quite realize. When you get a certain point in your career, you're not paid for hours work, you're paid for output produced. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing too, is that, yes, you cannot keep doing ministry as usual and just throw a 40 hour a week job into it. You'll crash and burn and end up hating me. I don't want anybody to hate me. So even now, I begin offloading, like what are the things that I can give away or eliminate, as I kind of said

earlier, so that I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, working 70, 80 hours a week. And I think here's the real talk about Koval life, man. Most days when I was working bivocational, I was up at five o'clock in the morning, drinking coffee, starting my workday, and working two to three hours before my kids woke up, getting them up, getting the morning drinking coffee, starting my work day and working two to three hours before my kids woke up, getting them up, getting them to school, going to my normal job, doing that for six, seven, eight hours, and then maybe doing an hour or two in the evening.

So if you're not a person who's disciplined enough to do that, then convocation might not be a long-term strategy for you. But that's just the real talk. I mean, you can't do this and be lazy. I guess it's probably the short answer. No, no, that's good. But that's, we shouldn't be lazy. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know about waking up at 5 a.m. but that's also to be fair. I go to bed at like 9 30 or 10. So that's yeah. You don't be too, don't be too impressed. We always like, Oh, we'll come to five. Yeah.

Like every time you go to bed, Oh, eight 45, my good buddy, Joel Willis, he's a very, he's a 5 AM or maybe even 4 30 and he'll get up and run and, and, and, you know, get a few hours of work in before and he loves his mornings. I'm just like, gosh, you suck. Like what time do you go to bed? He's like, Oh, I'm, I'm a nine o'clock night. I'm like, Oh, well there you go. Okay. I can, I just, I don't, I don't, yeah. I started getting more revved up at the evening. So I, I, I like to chip my eight hours, but okay. So you have said that you, you think this is co-vocational is not simply, Oh, you know, until I can get a real full-time pastor job until they can pay me full-time, I do this. And like in the meantime, like you're not arguing that this is just like something to fall back

on if they can't pay you enough. You're arguing that there is in principle benefits for being co-locational, even if the church could pay you full time. Is that, is that, is that a healthy summary so far? Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, it's everyone's personal, like, what works for you, right? Like, what works for you in a season of life, the season of ministry. And if you just realize, hey, I got too much going on, I can't possibly do that. That's, that's okay. It's just a matter of like, how did God uniquely wire you? And just as there's people who are like, really happy in the business world, like being a solopreneur and having a like a business, whether they do by themselves in the spare bedroom of their house, solopreneur and having a business where they do by themselves

in their spare bedroom of their house and they're happy as a clam doing that. There's some folks that they want to be a CEO of a 2,000 person company. Those two people, neither of them are doing anything wrong. They just have different ways of which they would enjoy working. So I think you as a person have to realize, well, how would I enjoy working? Would I enjoy working convocationally or bivocationally? Would I enjoy working full time? Like figuring that part out is critical. So you're not, it sounds, this was my second half of the question. It doesn't sound like you're saying that convocational is the best route for, for every pastor. Like if there's

a pastor saying, Hey, I'm full-time ministry. I'm doing my best to address maybe some of the possible downfalls to this, but I've got a church of a thousand people happy with what I'm doing. Would you say, Hey, you even you should consider doing this or is it only for people like who's it? Who's it for? And who's it not for? Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, if you have a thousand people in your church and you're the, and you're the pastor and you're thinking, you know, I'm going to throw a 40 hour a week job into the mix. Let's see what happens. I would say like, let's throw a red flag up there right away. That's not going to be the best thing. But if you're a thousand person church, leading

a thousand person church, which is a very, very small amount of pastors, the average church size in America is about 50 to 60 people. So that's very few or a thousand plus. But you say, Hey, you know what? Like, I'd love to do something on the side, like get a real estate license or start a podcast or write a book or do some training and speaking at different companies around the city. I mean, that's totally doable. Who I'm speaking to is your average everyday pastor, which is who I was, which is a church of sub-100 people who's feeling the kind of pinch of inflation, not just them, but the people in

their pews as well, who's looking at the writing on the wall saying, hey, listen, unless there's a miracle in the next one to two years, we're not going to make it financially. That convocational ministry should not be seen as like a, well, we're a failure as a church, but actually as a strategy, not only to infuse more money into the ministry to sustain it long term, but also to have your pastor, you know, out and about in the community. And then also to have more Christians in the pews stepping up and leading in ways they haven't before. Like, that's the beauty of it all. But yeah, if you have this massive organization that you're leading, and that's like, and you're at the tip of that spear, very hard to make those, those pivots when you're, you know, I'm talking about turning around a kayak. You're talking

about talking about turn around a cruise ship. I wonder though, like, like does, does the size of the church matter in terms of the pros and cons of convocation? I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. Like, like if it's a health, if you're a pastor of 5,000 people and if it's a healthy church, you're going terms of the pros and cons of convocation. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. Like, like if it's a health, if you're a pastor of 5,000 people and if it's a healthy church, hopefully you're not doing any more than a pastor of a hundred. In fact, you might even, you know, a pastor of a large church is kind of, no one really expects to have coffee with you. Or if you're a pastor of a hundred, you probably have maybe

a higher percentage of people that are wanting your time. No, it's spot on. There's actually this really fascinating article. This article should be behind a paywall because it's so fascinating, but it's from a Tim Keller. It's like the dynamics of organizational size in churches and kind of like who you are in each one of them. And to your point, Preston, like I think Tim Keller's article would kind of agree in some ways, the 5,000 person church has pastor has less demands than the 150 person church pastor. Preston Pysh Yeah. I would guess that because you have, and then if you have that many people, you obviously have several usually very capable people in associate ministry kind of positions. You probably

have a lot of different people that could preach and do it well on Sunday. I, I, again, I, you know, I don't want to put every church in a box, but it seemed, I just, I don't know. I, I wonder if the same reasons why someone might consider convocational ministry would, would be the same, whether regardless of the size of the church, but I think maybe the common denominator would be if you not being in full time, full time ministry would really hinder the ministry. Then, then maybe consider that. But even then, like, I just, I'm pushing back. I'm even my own thought. Like, like, could, but could, could that be because you've created a ministry cycle that is kind of unhealthily dependent on you doing more

than you actually should be doing. I don't know. Yeah. I can't, I can't say I'm an expert in mega churches. So it's hard for me to say either way. I never like worked at one that quite that large. So, but yeah, I mean, the thing of it is as funny about it, and this is kind of unfiltered thoughts, but like we'll look at, you know, a normal-sized church pastor of 50 or 60 folks who drives a school bus Monday through Friday to, you know, supplement his income. And we'll think, oh, man, poor God needs to, you know, do that to make his church survive. And then we'll look at, you know, the mega church pastor who writes books

and speaks at conferences and say, well, that guy's a hero. It's like, well, I mean, the guy who's driving the bus is caring for children in the community and gained to know his neighbors and providing a very real service and being the hands and feet of Christ. It's like, who's to say one's better or one's worse. I think both of them are contributing to the kingdom of God in their own unique ways. I saw a pastor recently say driving a school bus is a really good extra. I think they, they more framed it in terms of just pick up some extra income as a pastor. I mean, do you, you have summers off, you only work mornings and afternoons. You have the whole midday to do your ministry. It pays decent. I think it's, it's easy to do your, your, uh, around people you're in the real world. Uh, is that, is it's, it's easy to do your, your, uh, around people.

You're in the real world. Uh, is that, is that a, is that one job that you've recommended for some past? Yeah. Yeah. Some pastors are like, listen, I just need to work. There you go. There you go. Preston is your earlier question. 20 hour a week job drivers, drive school bus. There you go. Like you're not going to get rich doing it, but it's relatively low stress. As long as you're not on his like twisty roads or riding, driving through the snow. You're meeting your neighbors, you're providing a service, you have the middle of the day free and like, you know, make a few bucks. Like, why not? I almost feel like in some ways I know a few pastors who are just freaks of nature, they're full-time teachers,

like high school, public school teachers, and they're pastors. Like they're built, they're built different. That's like the LeBron James of ministry people. That's like insane because they're lesson planning think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing.

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I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing.

I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest thing. I think that's the biggest really. I mean, not everybody wants to talk, but I have one guy is a follower of the podcast. He's probably going to hear this. I mean, he, he, he lives in Chicago and he actually drives Uber in like, he's a white dude in South Chicago. It's in one of the more less white and more, um, it's, it's not the safest area and people are like, oh, I'm going to drive Uber. I'm going to drive Uber. I'm going to drive Uber. I'm going to drive Uber. I'm going to drive Uber. I'm going to drive Uber. Uber in like, he's a white dude in South Chicago. It's in one of the more, less white and more, it's not the safest area. And people freak out when this white dude comes and is going to pick him up and didn't, like, wait, you picked me up and you didn't just drive past

me? And then he gets into like just amazing, amazing coverage. He's his ministry all day long in Uber. Or I don't know, I keep thinking of different people now, a bivocational pastor. I don't know. Is he pastoring? He might not be pastoring anymore, but for a while he owned a cigar lounge and did church kind of more part-time. And he said, hands down, I do more ministry in the cigar lounge. People want to talk about stuff all the time there. And the fact that he's the fact that he's a pastor, you know, he's covered in tattoos, owning a cigar lounge. When people find out as a pastor, people like, what? And what they're eager to talk to them there. We're like at

church. He's like, it's a lot harder for people like come into my office and talk to me or whatever. But in, in we're now in public spaces. I mean, a lot of times people are just more normal and natural and they get all weird when they're around, you know, the church office or whatever, but totally. Or we're around being, this is my pastor. I gotta be on my best behavior. Right? Yeah. The executive pastor of the church that I led was a bartender. So we worked as a bartender evenings and weekends. Yeah. I mean, he, he would easily say, I do more ministry depending the bar than I do in the church because people, they come, they have a drink, they get kind of loose and they just start telling them that his, his problem, their problems, and he's able

to encourage them and minister to them. And I know some people listening might be a little bit, you know, I think that's a little bit racy, but listen, Jesus hung out with drunkards and sinners. That's why they loved them. Yeah. Just get the early shift before everybody's hammer. Yeah. Yeah. Try get out of there by like 10 PM. I wonder, do you have any, it's going to sound bad. Do you have any failure stories? Like, Hey, you, you know, somebody that went into convocational ministry and man, it was a crash and burn. It just did not. It just did not work well for them. I'll tell, I'll tell some of my own Kovo failure stories. I don't have like an overarching one, but I have like micro ones that can make people laugh and also feel sorry for me at

the same time. So I'll tell two ones. One's just like, wow, Eric, you're a real idiot. And one is like, that one actually really hurts I'm sorry that happened to you So the first one which is like Eric, you're an idiot was my wife was pregnant with our first kid We did our baby moon to Hawaii. So being convocational you have no extra income So keep in mind inner-city church not a lot of money people don't are not going to Hawaii on vacation in my church So I'm gone for two Sundays. I'm in Hawaii come back, I got a nice tan going on. I'm feeling good. And I decide in this poor, disenfranchised community to go on and on to my sermon about my

trip to Hawaii and how much fun I had and how much I enjoyed being, how beautiful the beaches were and how pristine it was. And everyone's looking at me like, what are you talking about, man? I couldn't even dream of a vacation like that. And they're talking about going to Hawaii. So don't do that. Don't do that. That's the, uh, the embarrassing story. The one is sad, but real. Our church plan was probably six months old, give or take a woman in our church—our church was small—was attending, getting more involved, and her mother passed away. Okay, so her mother passed away, and she texted me. She said, Hey, can you come to the funeral this day, you know, this time? I said, Hey, I'm sorry, I'm working at that time. I can't come. But I sent our executive pastor to go because he's the bartender and he doesn't work during the day. And he went and was able to minister

to her and talk to some of the family and was able to be present. Come to find out this woman was pretty offended that I, as the pastor, didn't go to her mom's funeral. Even though it was not something like I didn't blow it off, I wasn't doing something different, I was working. Like in her mind, she's like, said, I tend to small church. I figured I'd have more access to the pastor than I do. I'm like, well, I get that. But yet, I also understand I work Monday through Friday and I just can't always drop everything and come out here for stuff like that. So I think it's one of those things that I don't want to paint Kovo, Bivo in a super rosy light. I want to paint it in a realistic light that there is going to be trade-offs. If you, if you choose to go down this path and the big

one is you can't be all things to all people. So being okay with that, I think is important. Do you think let's let somebody is working. Let's say, well, who, whatever, whatever they're, whatever hours are working, what if they're getting paid pretty well in their vocational, their work, their real real world job. Do you think they should still get paid by the church for the work they're doing or, or is it, is this, or it just depends? Yeah. Yeah. No, once again, it's one of those things that's just very personal. You know, it's just there are pastors. I know, I know a guy right now in Queens who's planting and,

and he does not take a penny from the church. He fully, you know, has a full-time job, remote job, works in IT, makes really good money. And his wife works as well and they are living below their means and he does not take a penny. So every Sunday he's there preaching, leading, caring for people completely as a volunteer. I also, in my journey, I took a very small stipend

as an executive pastor for our duties. The reason why I did that is not because I necessarily even need the money, but because I recognized that end of the day, I have to be the one who shows up. This is still a job. It's my calling, it's my ministry, but I have to be the one that shows up first and unlocks the door, and the last one to close the door

and lock it when I leave. I'm the one people are gonna call at weird hours and talk about their challenges. It was a small financial incentive for me in that, but it was not like make or break my bank account by any means. And like I said, it's just personal. I think you should pay a laborer what he or she is worth. At the same time, I don't think there's anybody that I've ever met. I mean, know they exist who's in ministry because they want to get as rich as possible as fast as possible. So it depends on the unique situation of the church of the pastor.

Yeah. I, yeah. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with say a, say a pastor as a job and sales or making 150 grand a year or something., but like, I was, you know, as a kid, you grew up in like pastors. We're supposed to get paid really, really poor, you know, like don't make it, you know, um, but I don't, I don't know. Um, it's one thing to be a pastor. I mean, I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor.

I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor.

I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor. I'm a pastor., as a kid, you grew up in like pastors were supposed to get paid really, really poor, you know, like don't make any, you know, but I don't, I don't know. It's one thing if like you're a full-time pastor and you're getting paid just really high salary and that's just the people's tithe money, you know, they're giving it to the Lord and like you're rolling around in these expensive cars. I mean, like, I think that gets, you know, that's a little dicey. It gets a little dicey. But I mean, if you're just, I mean, I don't fault my Christian doctor for making, you know, half a million

dollars a year. He's a great surgeon, brain surgeon. He did, you know, like, I don't, I don't think, how dare you, you know? So like, if my Christian doctor is a great brain surgeon and he's also working 20 hours a week in ministry, should, is it wrong for him to get compensated with that? You could say, well, he doesn't need that money. Maybe not, but I don't know. I don't, I think it's more of a gray area. What was ministry like in the Bronx? I loved it, man. I really did. I like I spent, I spent 10 years there in total. Seven of those was planting. I let it led through COVID. We planted two other churches. Man, I miss it. I live in suburban Lancaster County now, bro, and it sucks. I don't know how anybody, I mean, shout out to anybody listening to this who does ministry

pastoring church planting in like a suburban community. I have no clue how you do it, man, because like in a city, like I take my kids to the playground and I'm going to end up talking to the mom with the dad that's also there with their kids. That's just like how urban people are. They just, they're more out, they spend more time outdoors. They're more talking to the mom or the dad that's also there with their kids. That's just like how urban people are. They just, they're more out, they spend more time outdoors. They're more talking to their neighbors. They just, there's more of that kind of street culture out here, bro.

Like I pulled into my garage, my two car garage. I clicked the button in my car. It opens up the door. I pull in, I close it. I exit my car. If I really didn't want to, I would not have to ever see my neighbors ever. We drive everywhere we go. We don't walk anywhere we go. And I have to be super, duper intentional of like trying to meet people. And I've been here for a year and some change and it's freaking hard, man. Like people are like, Oh, you're going to plant the church out there in Lancaster.

I'm like, I don't even know how to. I have no clue because my whole core team in the Bronx was people I met like in the community, people from CrossFit, people on the train, people in the courtyard in my building, people down the coffee shop or whatever it was. It was like, and here I've been here for a year. I barely know anybody. So shout out to the suburban guys, but yeah, I miss it. I miss the city. I tell my wife, if you ever decide we should go back, you have to tell me twice. I'll call a realtor right away. I'm glad you're saying this because I've been feeling this. We just moved our daughter, our second daughter into Manhattan. She lives in North and, oh, what's the North? It's like

a... Is it Inwood, Washington Heights? Washington Heights. Washington Heights. And she goes to film school in the FIDI district. And she's been there for probably three months and she has met more people and become friends, like deep, deep meaningful relationships with a diverse range of people in three months. And she did in 10 years and Boise. And I feel like we live in Boise very just, just kind of a culturally it's, it's, um, people move here because they just, they want a nice safe environment. They want to buy the house and, and, and shut the garage door

and then come in after, you know, like it's, it's a very independent kind of leave me alone. And, and, but man, it can be, it can be a very, very like, yeah, just lonely isolating place, even though you're kind of near people. It's just that it's, it's way more common for people that not, not want to get into any kind of like meaningful conversation. Whereas just in the few times we've been out to New York visiting my daughter, I feel like I'm meeting people and like talking to people and just the hustle bustle, the city. And yeah, I just feel like there's just this relational vibe in the air. So that's I that's, I've been thinking this, but it's good to hear you say that. Cause I sometimes like, how come we don't have this in, in suburban Boise, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny because the suburbs were built for just that, for privacy, right? For seclusion. They were built to escape the city. So that even like the garage door that closes behind you is, you know, that's why it was built that way. Why is my back porch bigger than my front porch? Right. You know, all of that. Right. In that. Yeah. So I miss it, man. I'm glad her daughter is there. Hope she's having a really good

experience. And I recommend to people who do feel called to ministry, like, yeah, give New York a try. Go for two years. It'll be like going 20 years, some more different. So I love it. What brought you from there? What brought you there?

Like, how did you even decide to go to the right? Yeah, yeah, I grew up kind of weird, man. I grew up in PA. PA is my home, but I had a lot of family from New York. My grandparents met in New York. I had cousins out there. And I just, you know, fell in love with the city and I fell in love with church planting. I got rid of a lot of Tim Keller and you know, the pieces kind of fell where they were. We

were, my wife and I were somewhat, somewhat newly married, no kids yet. So we thought let's go for it. And when that was in 20, 20, 14, March, 2014. So we made it, it just shy of 10 years. But bro, I mean, of all the places in New York, not upper Manhattan or Brooklyn. I mean, you went straight up Bronx. That's, that's a, well, you know, the thing of it is about the Bronx is in my view, that's like, that's the remnant of the true New York. Like a lot of New York city has become very sanitized, very disfied. The Bronx is still just working class people, man. It's like that's New York as it was, you know? And high immigrant community,

enclaves of Mexican from Afghanistan, Irish, Iraqi, Guatemalan, like you name it, it's there, man. I just really enjoyed that. I don't want to live in a ritzy part of town. Like that wasn't appealing to me. I want to live with real people. So that's what, that's where we ended up going. Was your, was your church super ethnically diverse? Oh yeah, man. At our peak, we had 13 different nations in our church and most Sundays my family was the only white family

and the church. So yeah, it was really, really diverse. So it was cool, but made it interesting to do ministry. Obviously did that create a, yeah. Tell that dynamic of the pastor, the church planner is white. And most people aren't that, that, did that create any kind of, or challenging dynamics? Um, I, I think for people that weren't comfortable with that, they quickly self-selected out. Most people who attended all saints were millennials, like 20 and 30 somethings. They were kind of used to diverse backgrounds in their schools and their workplaces. And they were more okay with that. Keep in mind, like I said, the executive pastor was Mexican American as well. And I think the other thing for me is like, I knew that as a white person and as an outsider

coming into this community, I have to be really mindful of how I'm showing up, which is why the Hawaii story is so awful. Right, right, right. It's like, because that was a very tone deaf cultural faux pas. But because I'm gifted cross-culturally, I kind of learned how to chart those waters. But yeah, I don't perceive it ever being a challenge. I was also mentored by a Puerto Rican brother for three years who was from the Bronx. And one of the things that he told me that was so profound, he's like, when you're preaching and leading in a multicultural context, you just have to

focus on the gospel. Which, you know, let's be honest, no matter what your context looks like, that's probably good advice regardless. Because you can't go, I can't go up there and be like, here's why you should vote for Trump, or here's why you should vote for Trump or here's why you should vote for, for Biden. Like that would just like really alienate people. So going up there and just focusing on Christ and him crucified and our need, all of our collective need for forgiveness at Atlanta with people. So that was pretty good. How was the food in the Bronx? Oh dude, don't get me started bro. I came out here, man. People are like, yo, this spot, this is the spot. And you go there like, what is this? I got better food out of a truck in the Bronx. And this is like the best restaurant in town. Nothing has spice out here. You go out there, man, you can get like, I'll go

to a bodega and get like a sandwich. And it's like, oh my gosh, this is fantastic from like a gas station, from a little convenience store. I just, I, I think about New York city and I just start salivating. I just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One other thing that's like so dangerous is like you pull up like Uber eats on your phone. It's like 500 restaurants will deliver to you at like, you know, 1130 at night. Like, what do you want? Vietnamese, Korean, like whatever you want. There it is. Oh man. Well, Eric, man, it was great talking to you. And man, you've given us a lot to think about again, your book is market street pastor ministry sustainability without money

stress. When did this afforded by Peyton Jones? I know Peyton, Peyton way back. I haven't talked to him in years, but that's amazing. No, I just, I I've been a big fan of pain for a really long time and he didn't mean a solid. I just reached out to his team. I'm like, Hey man, I know you don't know me, but I'm writing my debut book. Would you do the forward? And he and I spent some time together. I think it was feeling me out to make sure I wasn't a weirdo, which I guess I passed his test because he did it for me. So shout out to Payton Jones, man. Thank you. We met gosh, 15, maybe 15, 12, 12, 15 years ago. Wow, how'd you guys meet? I was in California at a Bible college, Eternity Bible College teaching.

And I think we crossed paths at some, like, pastor or ministry gathering or something. We hung out, grabbed a meal, and I think we kept in touch for a little bit over the years, but not recently though. But yeah, really, yeah. Really enjoyed hanging out with them. How is he still in California? He is. Yeah. He's still out there doing his thing. And yeah, he's still training pastors and still a big champion of a marketplace ministry. So I thought there's anybody that will do it. Yeah, man. Full transparency on the, if I hope he listens to this, because when I first reached out to him, I'm like, I mean, pain's kind of, you know, he's kind of big time compared to me. He probably won't even read this email

was when he said, yes, I was shocked. So he's a good guy. So he he's co-vocational as well. As far as I know. Yeah. Well, man. Oh, and you also, aside from your book, your, your ministry that you run, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. I help pastorsgetjobs.com. You can go there. There's a free PDF, the top 10 mistakes pastors make when switching from ministry to marketplace. I also have a sub stack as well, which is totally free.

I posted that every Monday. So that's kind of where I'm at. I hang out on Twitter most of the time. That's my name, Eric Hoke. I have a very eclectic post, everything from vocation and ministry to fatherhood to complaining about how much I just like the food and Lancaster. So if you want to

hear me griping grumble, you can follow me on there. I've enjoyed your tweets. I've enjoyed following you. Yeah, it is wide ranging and I love that. So well, thank you so much, man, for being on the theology draw and yeah, maybe we can do this again sometime. I look forward to it, man. Thank you so much, man, for being on Theology of the Raw. And yeah, maybe we can do this again sometime. I look forward to it, man. Thank you. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Am Amon joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been

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