Theology in the Raw - A Fight to End Human Slavery: Christine Caine

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

Christine Caine is a speaker, activist, and best-selling author. She and her husband, Nick, founded the anti-human trafficking organization The A21 Campaign. They also founded Propel Women, an initiative that is dedicated to coming alongside women all over the globe to activate their God-given purpose. Her most recent book is: The Promise and Power of Easter (Bible Study Guide): Captivated by the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus, w/ Lisa Harper. Check out the A21 Campaign: https://www.a21.org Register for the Exiles conference (April 3-5, 2025): https://theologyintheraw.com/exiles25/ -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, The Exiles in Babylon Conference is just around the corner, April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We're talking about the gospel and race after George Floyd. We're talking about transgender people and the church. We're talking about social justice and the gospel. Also talking about whether the evangelical church is even good for this country. Lots of after parties are happening. We have a pre-conference with the Holy Post that's going to be there, and several breakout sessions. We've never done breakouts before this year. We have multiple breakouts that you can attend. It's going to be lively. It's going to be awesome. All the information is at theologyintherod.com.

If you want to attend live, make sure you register sooner than later because space is filling up and you want to grab your seat. If you can't attend live, you can also live stream the conference. Okay. My guest today is somebody who I've been wanting to talk to for many, many years. Um, Christine Kane is a speaker activist, a bestselling author. Uh, she and her husband, Nick founded the anti-trafficking organization, the A 21 campaign. I know many of you are following her work for a while. They also founded Propel Women, an initiative that is dedicated to come alongside women all over the globe to activate their God given purpose. And Christine is the author of many, many, many books, including the recently released The Promise of Power of Easter Bible Study Guide, subtitle Captivated

by the Cross and Resurrection that she co-authored with Lisa Harper. So this was a, love this conversation. Christine is, I don't know where she gets her energy from, but she just has a ton of passion that just bubbles over. We talked all about her organization, the A21 campaign, and just human trafficking in general is incredibly informative. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Christine Kane.

Christine Kane! I can't believe it's finally happening! It's finally happening. I don't know how many friends we have in common. I think the first one that I connected with was Lisa Bavir. I know you and Lisa are tight and for years she's been saying, you need to talk to Chris, you need to talk to Chris. And I've got several other people that I'm sure we can go down the list of common friends, but I am so glad we are finally having this conversation. Well, someone, you've got to know, I've just, I've followed your work for so long and I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for what you guys are doing.

I appreciate that. Appreciate it. I want to go back to, I don't know how far back we need to go, but A21 is a massive ministry combating human slavery, which is still an issue, a massive issue today. What can it go because go, how far back does this go? When did you first get the passion to want to address this? Take us back to that moment. I love that question. Okay, so A21 is actually

17 years old. So we've been going for 17 years. So officially started 2008. And then in about 2008. And then in about 2007, late 2006, I was at, I was going to speak at a women's conference in Thessaloniki, Greece. You know, I'm Greek and I still have Windex in every room of the house. Give me a word, any word. The origin of that word is Greek and everyone wants it. Wait, that's a real thing, the Windex and the, that's a- Well, we can't take you, you're here, I could go and just reach out. Yes, it's a real thing. And it's hilarious. But my big fact, Greek wedding is literally my big fact, Greek life.

Like Greek is my first language. I grew up daughter of Greek immigrants in Australia. So, um, I am Greek to the bone. I've got a Greek passport, the whole thing. Anyway, so I was going to speak at a conference and at that time, my husband and I were traveling all around the world doing just a lot of mission and ministry. I had just given birth to my second daughter, Sophia. I had a four-year-old and a relatively newborn. I was standing at the baggage claim, tiny little airport in Thessaloniki, and I was waiting

for my bags. There was just one baggage claim. As I was waiting for it, there were these posters of all of these missing women and children. As I was looking at all those posters, I just saw the word in Greek, missing, missing, missing, missing. I'm thinking to myself, why is there so many missing women and children in Northern Greece, in this part of the world? Preston, this is the best way to explain what happened. Imagine I'm 40, I've just had a second child. At this point, I had not been praying to the Lord for any more new ministries. I was thinking, I need a purple heart and a vacation in Santorini. That's all I want. When you pop out a kid of 40, you are not praying for more. And so I'm like, here I am, Lord, send everybody

else. And so that was not my thought. I was like just waiting. But I went in and I saw one little picture and the little girl's name in this picture was Sophia. And this is where I would say the seed for A21 started. I went in that moment from looking at someone else's missing child to seeing my own daughter. And I think in that moment, you know, when you look, you can look away in life, but when you see, you can never ever unsee. So something just went off. And I called my friend who at the time was the deputy director of UNICEF. And I said to her, why is there so many missing children? And this is how I first heard about it. She went on and said, Christine,

these are the alleged victims of human trafficking. To which I said, what do you mean human trafficking? It never even occurred to me. She goes, that's modern day slavery. I said, slavery? There's no slaves today. We've had the Emancipation Proclamation Act, the Freedom from Slavery Act.

I mean, in my brain, I'm like, that can't exist. And anyway, it was from there that I went on to find out that it was the fastest growing crime worldwide. Faster than the selling of drugs or armaments was the selling of people. Human beings created in the image of God. And about a year before that, I had been, I've been ministering in Krakow and I had gone to Auschwitz to the museum and, you know, the death camps. And I remember as I was standing in front of the, what were the ovens in Auschwitz, just bawling and saying to the Lord, if anything like this ever happens in my lifetime,

I will never be silent. I want to make sure that I'm counted amongst those that have raised my voice and fought for freedom. And little did I know that modern day slavery is the modern day Holocaust on the earth. I mean, today, with over 50 million slaves worldwide. But I'll just add one thing before we keep talking. As I was preparing my message, I'd already planned to speak from the parable of the Good Samaritan at the Women's Conference. Now, this is how the Lord works with me. And so I'm sitting in my hotel room, I'm prepping, and just, you know, when you're in a text and the text is speaking to you just, you know, when you're in a text and the text is speaking to you, the Lord's speaking to you through the text.

And I just had this moment in the text where it was just this sense of Christine, you think you are the Samaritan in this text. And I'm thinking in my mind, yes, I'm traveling around the world with Nick, I've got a newborn and a four year old and we're going to like Bulgaria and Poland and Lithuania, no one's going and we're helping church planters and helping the church and women in these regions. And in that sense, as I was reading the text, it was no Christine, you're more like the Levite

and the priest, you're so busy going to your next Christian event that you see these people as an interruption to your ministry rather than the object of your ministry. The Samaritan was as busy as everyone else. The three of them were on their way somewhere else. The only difference between the Samaritan and the Levite and the priest was that the Samaritan actually crossed the street. I just had this sense that we've confused sympathy and empathy with compassion. We think because we might cry at a sad video or hear a sad story or a

test testimony that we have compassion. But compassion is only compassion when you cross the street, roll up your sleeves, give up your own time, your own talent, your own treasure. That's when it's truly compassion that you'll move like Jesus from your guts, from your inner man, to actually do something. After I was 40, I had already been in ministry, full-time vocational ministry for nearly 16, 17 years at the time. It was a huge pivot for us. It was like, okay, I can't just go and do evangelism and mission can't just go and, you know, do evangelism and mission without doing this. And I really did not know what I was signing up for. Who did? Who does? I knew nothing. My degree is in English and economic history. So, you know, basically I can read golden books, count to 10. I did not have a degree in this area. And I felt very hopeless, you know, in that you sort of have your conversation,

but God, but God, I'm a woman, but God, I live in Australia, but God, I've got two kids, but God, I'm 40, but God, this is, you know, Albanian and Russian mafia and they kill people, but God, you know, Greece is on the verge of economic collapse. That was 2006, 2007, you know, 2008, Greece bankrupted the world, you're welcome. And so, you know, we kind of had that happening. And then it was, so there was this, but God, but God, and then the Lord took me to the text in Exodus three, you know, when the Lord came to Moses and said, I'm going to rescue my people and I'm going to use you. And Moses is like, but Lord, no, I'm not eloquent. I'm slow speech. And it was

like, I had this moment of, you know, as if Moses's eloquence was going to be the deal breaker on God's capacity to part the Red Sea. And it was like this reckoning of like, wow, Chris, do you think your knowledge or skill or training is going to be the deal breaker on whether God can use you or not. And so it was like, okay, that was, I had to just give my yes and I had to get to a place to give my yes. And that's kind of where it all started. And here we are by the grace of God. So in 2025, as we're recording this, and 17 years, we've got, we provide programs in 21 cities around the world in 14 countries and have offices set up in 14 countries and have, you know, reached through our Can You See Me campaign, literally billions when I say that and I'll explain what that means,

but truly through all of our different campaigns, in terms of reaching and raising awareness and we've rescued over 4,000 survivors that have gone through the, when we say that, we mean that we have represented them legally, we have then provided, you know, whatever aftercare services they need. And then in terms of restoration. So we take them through from prevention awareness right through to restoration all over the world. And so who knew? Only God. It's such a grace. And so tied into my own life coming from a background of abuse and abandonment and adoption. You know, I feel in some ways there's just one degree of separation between me and some of the survivors

and the victims that we're rescuing. Because if I wasn't born in Australia, where there was a rule of law and a proper adoption process, I could be any one of the kids that we're rescuing today. And it would be just like God to redeem my life and my past and not only rescue me, but say, now I'm going to use you to rescue others. I'm curious, just on a real practical level, when you get this passion, don't really have a clue what to do with it. Like what did you do with it? Like how do you start

an organization? Did you start fundraising? Did you start building a team? Yeah, before I even started fundraising, it wasn't even that. I thought, I don't know what to do. Again, it's a little bit like the Lord said to Moses, what's in your hand? And he had a, you know, a staff and it's like, well, Chris, what's in your hand? And I thought, well, I've got a mouth. And I've got the ear of so many different people in the global church. So the first thing I did was began to educate myself, talk to people. And then, you know, back then there wasn't a whole lot of information about this. It wasn't people weren't talking about it like they are today. You know, this is back in, there were very few organizations, particularly in that region of the world that were

doing anything, but to the best of my ability, I began to talk to anyone, go and visit anyone that was doing anything on the ground, whether it was Cambodia or anywhere around the world. And then I think the Lord was shining a spotlight on it because then a few of us all at the same time. Obviously he was speaking to us in different ways and we began talking about it. But I did that, but then what I would do is begin to talk about what I'd seen. So I'd weave it into everywhere I went to speak and I speak a lot in a lot of places all over the world. So anywhere I went to speak,

I would begin to at least weave it in. And it is amazing. It wasn't like back then people were not that open to it. I mean, in certain areas. Oh, yeah, it was like, there's a lot of resistance initially, back in 2007, eight, nine, 10, 11. Why would they resist? What are they resisting? Let me just say in Greece, if I began to talk about it there, it was like, you're just trying to embarrass our country, you'll be because there was human trafficking was not a crime. So the first thing we did in Greece was hired a lawyer

so we could write legislation to, you can't convict or prosecute something that's not a crime. So, you know, we would start wherever it would be like, okay, Lord, we would have to pray and get a strategy for every place. And then I would go to some places, how the fundraising happens, I would talk,

and then spontaneously people would take offerings and I go, oh, that's how the organization even started. I thought I would just be a spokesperson for it and you know, maybe help other people or other organizations. And then people started to give us money and I'm like, oh my gosh, we have to do, we have to do something. That's how it sort of started. And then, so we started there, hired a lawyer, and then a whole lot that was, you know, very soon after that, there was the Syrian refugee

crisis. There was a whole lot of things that were happening that brought a lot of survivors into our care, which then, I mean, you know, it just one thing grew to another. Then it was like, oh, we have to actually provide services and we need psychologists and we need healthcare professionals and we need education and training and job skills. Like you would just go, we grew into it in that way and then started to travel the world and find what are best practices around the world?

What are people doing? What can we learn from? Where can we glean? And that's how it's sort of practically, and then we just started to get unbelievable people, like some of the top lawyers in the world when it comes to child exploitation that were like, we just feel called to come and work. And so, I mean, so the Lord brought us unbelievable people, highly, way more skilled than me, way more knowledgeable than me across every field. You know, one of the, one of our,

the person that looks after our global aftercare was involved in helping to write the, the restoration program for all the child soldiers that came for the Ugandan government after, you know, after that genocide and horror. And so really great people that knew way more than me. And we're like, okay, we can get together. We can write some comprehensive aftercare.

People that were involved in huge global lawyers in child exploitation. So understanding how we need to work with law enforcement, how we need to work with governments, how we need to work with schools. Great educators that wrote programs that are, we've got them in every state in America, all across the world, K through 12,

education and prevention programs of raising awareness that bodies are not commodities. How does that work? And that bodies are not to be bought and sold and age appropriate education and training. We knew, because you go to some countries like Greece, where, you know, prostitution is legal. So the right of passage,

and I know this from just growing up as Greek, for a 13 year old boy, often could be that his grandmother would take him to a brothel to sort of teach him, so that he could be taught how to be a man and all the things that go with that. So you kind of go all around the world, you're in nations that this is just put into the fabric, it's

woven into the fabric of society, the object of the objectification of women that they use to be, you know, as sex objects and men that, you know, see it that way. It's so fascinating where it happens and what it looks like in our offices in Cambodia and Thailand and Southeast Asia, what we've got happening in South Africa and that region of the world, and then what it looks like in Europe. Greece is the UN calls it the parking lot of human trafficking in Europe because of the Schengen zone and you can cross borders and it makes transporting people a lot easier. And then up in the UK, what it looks like there, what it's like here in North America,

and we've got extensive programs throughout South America as well. And it all looks different and we attack it from all different angles. We have lots of films in our Can You See Me program. If you go to Heathrow Airport, Chicago Airport, all through South America, Africa, you will see often on the trolleys, at the airport,

Can You See Me, we run national hotlines in many countries. And so there's, Can You See Me comes from when I was standing at the carousel and I saw the posters and I didn't know what to do. And so here is like like this is hidden in plain sight and giving people here is who you can call. This is how you can identify. And we do a lot of training of, you know, law enforcement of workers, anywhere people are moved. So trains, buses, but, you know, airports, flight crews, anywhere that people are transported. So we're trying from every

angle, you know, both to put nets up at the top of the cliff so people don't fall and then provide ambulances at the bottom to be able to rescue those that have. In terms of the, so spreading awareness is a big part of your ministry. In terms of the activity, the action, like are you going into like brothels and rescuing girls? Or how do you actually rescue a girl out of the traffic? And I think for us, because we work so closely with law enforcement and governments around the world,

because we really wanna move the needle. And sometimes those kinds of approaches, and it depends, like if we were to do that in the countries we work in, it doesn't really help. Because, okay, so I go in- You're not pulling it up by the roots. Yeah, and I get someone out. What do I do then with that person that may or may not be an illegal immigrant because they were trafficked? And then it makes it, I'm not there to

do the job of law enforcement. I'm there to help law enforcement do their job in that sense. And in that way, you tend to have longevity in nations because they trust you. That's why we've been in all these nations for so long, um, that we're working together now, of course, you know, does your blood boil? Do you think, man, I could take care of this tonight and go in and take... And the very big truth is, and it's just a sad reality is if I went out and the police said, you've got to build a case so that you can prosecute it so that you can stop it and take the traffickers out at the top level. Otherwise, what you're doing is, I could, let's just say, rescue 20 women from a particular place, apartment broth or whatever it might be, within two hours, there'll be 20 more.

What you're trying to do is to stop the trafficking rings from operating. To do that, you've got to have watertight cases. So you've got to work with law enforcement to put together those kinds of cases so that they hold up in court. If you're like me, you care deeply about LGBT plus people experiencing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, one of the best ministries that is doing this so incredibly well is Posture Shift. Posture Shift is my go-to resource

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It's free for your team. Okay. No excuses. Go check it out. Posture is here for a limited time. It's free for your team. Okay. No excuses. Go check it out. PostureShift.com forward slash brief. Use the coupon brief after check-in. Would you say you almost have to, like there's that short term rescue bunch of girls or there's the long term, we need to make, cause systemic change, right? It sounds like you're focusing more on the latter. Is that hard? Because it's like you have to almost, not overlook, but you have to like, you might miss some opportunities for immediate rescue because you're focused on the long term. Is that a real tension?

Yeah, it's a huge tension. And the only way I've been able to reconcile that personally, and maybe even theologically, is just Jesus walked on the earth and was so acutely aware of all the sin and iniquity and crime and injustice and pain and suffering and didn't do everything all at once for everyone. And so you kind of go, okay, somehow he was able to reconcile that when he walked on this earth. And so it's the only way. Now will, to the best of our ability, help every person that comes in our path? Yes.

But the long-term approach, I want to see systemic change and I'm in it for the long haul. Does that mean it may or may not, should the Lord Tary be eradicated in my lifetime? Probably not, but am I setting up a system and structure that can continue the work from happening? Yes, and I think for us, I mean, you know, everyone's got their model, but we have seen a lot,

you can affect a lot more change this way because laws can change and that can help. Things change on the ground for people. Then the more aware you make the service providers, whether it's law enforcement or in education, even our long-term approach with education, it's taken us 10 years to get our education program approved in every state and through the education department. I mean, there are a lot of hoops you've got to jump through. But we were trialing, we were beta testing the new program and the new film that we've got to show in schools in Michigan, in 13 high schools. As a result of that, and I could just, like this is just so recent, you know, one girl went up to her teacher after school,

after she showed this film and they did a teaching on it. And she said, you know, that, because in America, particularly online exploitation is a huge thing, grooming young kids online, and then all the stuff that goes with that. And so she's seeing that and she went to the teacher and said, you know, my father is doing that to me. He said that we didn't have money and if he took pictures of me naked and then sold them, we could provide food for our family. And so because of that, you know, the teacher then knew what to do, who to call, what to do.

So we were able to deal with that in the right way with law enforcement and were able to get that man convicted. You know, like, like, like, so it actually works really well. And another kid went up and went, oh, my gosh, you know, my friend Sally, she's not in class now because she's gone to the airport. It was, you know, it was a guy, an older man that had been grooming her. She didn't know that. She just thought it was some younger guy that she was meeting that was falling in love with her online. And she went to the airport there to meet him. So this is happening as the film's showing. The girl goes to a teacher. Teacher calls the police, the police call the FBI, they go to the airport, intercept this man who had set it up with six other girls.

We're talking normal Midwest America school, just normal. That man is in the hands of the authorities now and we're going to be able to go to court with that case. That's why it's helpful to work together. So there is no one way. It's not like, okay, we're going to go in, kick out the doors, get everyone out and we're done. It is a systemic issue. And then when you're talking about crossing borders and, you know, in Greece, we had a big raid where 52 Colombian women were rescued with the war in Ukraine and Russia. It was just a little bit more difficult for the traffickers in some of those very common

roads where trafficking happened were shut down because of the war. So they were trafficking girls in from Colombia and in one raid. And again, because of the hotline, one girl escaping, working with our team in Greece and Spain, language of obviously is a big thing here. And 60, sorry, 52 women from Columbia were rescued, one raid in one apartment in Athens and 22 traffickers were caught. And that case is still now in the court system. But that was a way to at least cut out that trafficking ring that was coming around.

I think the long-term vision is so much better. Again, maybe some people are focused on the short-term and that plays a role, but that long-term solution, that holistic long-term, what you're doing, it makes so much more sense to me. And even in the New Testament, you have, I mean, a pretty close analogy to slavery in the New Testament, right? I mean, you see the church that was starting to overturn the very structurally, like internally, like gutting slavery from the inside out for people within the church.

They didn't seek to dismantle the institution. They couldn't at that time. But they planted seeds and they were creating communities where down the road, it would end up overturning the structures of slavery. So yeah, that's it. What does aftercare look like? I've learned over the years that, man, that is, you can rescue a thousand girls, right? But if aftercare isn't in place, they end up going back or they're, it's... Just think of the trauma and the, and sometimes it's, I don't know, historically, that the churches aren't, we've done great jobs in some areas and then in some areas we just sort of think, okay, get rescued, you know,

for whatever, get saved and get on with life. Do you realize the level of trauma of having been raped in some cases up to 40 times a day and what that does to you and what that does to your whole psyche? Now we have, and I think one of the things that, and I can say this because it's not me personally, it's the team. One of the things we've gotten lots of awards for would be our aftercare program. That's probably what we're most known for. We have several different things, but the thing is we have what we call freedom centers.

There is in some cases and before in our early days, we had like emergency like refuges for people. But if you've been trafficked and you've been held against your will for whatever the period of time may be, the last thing that you're going to want to do is again be straightaway put into another place where you have got every minute of your day is, you know, kind of program like it was like, it just triggers everything of a trafficker. Now there are some that need that immediate, obviously, because they're just so damaged. It could be physically there, there is just so much and, and obviously emotionally. And so, but what works, what we have found with in South Africa, in Asia, in Europe and here

in North America, we've got two freedom centers, is that we help with independent housing, so to make sure it's all safe and set up right. And then it's in very close proximity to a freedom center and then it's teaching and working really closely with the survivors at a pace that works for them. In that Freedom Center, we provide everything that you could possibly need in terms of education, training, anything physically that you would need in terms of your mental health, psychologists, like all of it in a really holistic way, fantastic access to food, clothing, everything that you could possibly need and someone to really walk through with you,

teaching you when you've had a life that's been so controlled by others, how to take agency and how to begin to operate again. I think that aftercare program really tends, and you go and everyone's got their own pace. There is not like a, here is the formula and in six weeks you'll be out and here it goes. Some people we will walk through that process for two years with them. Others, you know, it will be, and still others,

and again, it depends what part of the world we're talking about. Still others, they may decide, I want to go back to my country of origin. And so we've been able, we had an aftercare center in Bulgaria for about three years, there was massive traffic in between Greece and Bulgaria. And those Bulgarian girls wanted to go back, but they needed help. So we set up aftercare to help them in Bulgaria. Many of the women, particularly in those regions and in parts of Africa, can't go back to their families. Again, it's the shame culture and it operates very differently. Even if you were taken against your will, they would perceive you in your village, in your town as used goods, you're no good anymore. And so it is very shameful. The families won't take them back. And so for us to then stay

and walk that process. And in Cambodia and Thailand, it's miners. That's where we work with miners. In these countries, we work more over 18-year-olds, the trafficking would be at that age. And what we have there is child advocacy centers, which I think have really revolutionized things. Because before, if you're a child, say you're like eight years old and you've been trafficked, and then you would have to come in and give testimony. You're terrified and traumatized to law enforcement.

And you might have to do that five or six different times. I mean, just, it's horrific. And of course in there is the story through the trauma. You're not gonna remember every detail. It's, so there's not even enough to be able to go to court on that, but what we've done, and this took a lot of years, but man, it's awesome. And I'm so grateful that we've been able to do this, is our child advocacy centers, you have a social worker,

so normal clothes, not law enforcement, a child. The rooms are set up like playrooms. It looks beautiful, but on the other side is obviously, you can see through mirrors and cameras, so it's all being recorded. You've got law enforcement. The social worker knows how to work it, so it's just not terrifying. It's organic, but the fact that now that only has to happen once and it's in a very safe and non-threatening environment, and that child gives testimony, And here's the big thing, that can then be used as admissible evidence in court.

So you've suddenly taken all those layers of trauma out and then we have working with those children. We've in Cambodia in particular, working in the foster care system. And I think we're about to, A21 is going to be extremely involved in helping to run that. And then that is going to really, really help with the fact that there are so many kids that need safe families and safe help for restoration. Again, everything is very specific to the country, the continent and what is needed.

We definitely have a holistic approach. God made us body, soul and spirit. I know from my own trauma recovery, the gospel has saved me, but Jesus cared about all of me renewing my mind, transforming my heart and of course regenerating my spirit. I always say to people, when I came to faith in Christ, my spirit was born again. I'm heaven bound. I'm saved. Saved as I'm ever going to get in that moment. I'm saved. But I came to him with a very, very tormented mind and a very, very wounded soul. In the same way, I always say, if I came to Christ, prayed the sinner's prayer, you know, I'm saved from hell and

damnation and I'm going to heaven. And if I had cellulite on my thighs, when I prayed that prayer, when I said amen, that cellulite's still on my thighs and it's not going anywhere. The salvation prayer did not take the cellulite away. And until I stopped eating my Krispy Kreme donuts and get on the treadmill, that cellulite's probably coming to glory with me. Right. We can accept that about our bodies. I don't know why we think it's weird when it comes to our hearts and minds, like our souls.

Like if my body was either damaged or, you know, there's work I have to do. The sinner's prayer isn't going to transform that. And I came to Christ with such woundedness from abuse and abandonment and rejection and adoption and, you know, so confused about my gender identity and so confused about so many things in my life. I prayed a prayer and truly, I believe, my spirit, many things changed and the lights came on for me in many ways. But then there was a

process for renewing my mind and my soul that was so wounded. I often think, you know, when the Lord said, love the Lord your God, the greatest commandment with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength. And the second commandment, like the first love your neighbors, you love yourself. I think for many of us, people of faith, we do love our neighbor as ourselves, we just don't really like ourselves. And we love God with all of our tormented mind and all of our wounded hearts, and you know, all of our sort of broken souls. So I kind of think that if we, that's a process. And because I think we've just put it all into one, we haven't been as gracious as we need to be to go, people need a process.

For me, it was a process like today by the grace of God. He uses me to rescue others and maybe help teach women and bring life and liberty through my own testimony. I'd love to tell you, Preston, that I went on one altar call, someone laid hands on me, I fell over, got back up and went, whoa, here I am. And I'm like, it was like, you know, the blood of Jesus doesn't give us amnesia. It gives us a life beyond our past for sure, but you've got to walk that out. And so I think, you know, I see that in the restoration process of the survivors. And there are just many ways of approaching that.

And I think the holistic approach gives it a much better chance of them really flourishing in life in the future. You mentioned you said you've experienced, you said confusion about your gender identity in the past. What did that look like? I just think like I said, I don't know that we're, I just think as I was growing up, in many ways, I think the abuse that happened to me over a very extended period of time, almost a decade and at the hands of four different men.

Um, it messes you up, uh, in many ways, you know, um, and I grew up in a, a very staunch Greek Orthodox culture, various stereotypical gender roles, you know? Um, and, and I was born in 1966, so let's, let's go back, you know, sometimes forget that I'm like, there was an era, you know, that, um, and because I didn't want to play with Barbie dolls and wanted to play soccer, and I didn't want to do ballet and I wanted to read books. Um, you know, there was just so much, um, put on me, you know, you're a tomboy, you must be a guy. And I think the brokenness of just my past made me very much question. Who am I? Who am I attracted to? What am I, you know, during particularly

my teenage years, in many ways. And it was, you know, a journey, to say the least of just going, was, you know, a journey to say the least of just going, okay. And then when I came to when I truly became a fully devoted follower of Jesus, I was 21, nearly, I just again, then I had already, in my teenage years, just developed a lot of patterns of destructive behavior, being in and out of so many different relationships, and certainly not God's design for my life. But it was, I was just, I think, looking for significance. I was looking for security. I was looking for identity. I was looking for value and I was looking for love. It wasn't until I was 33 that I found out I was adopted. And so you've got, yeah. So, you know, I got a phone call from my brother, George, who he was 35 at the time,

I was two weeks out from my 33rd birthday. And he said, Chris, I got a letter from the government, and it says that I've been adopted. And I started laughing. Because you know, when you're growing up, you always say to your siblings, we're not related. And then he, he said, I'm going to go and confront mom. And, you know, I cut a long story short, my dad had died when I was 19. So I jumped in the car, drove to my mother's house. And I don't know if you know anything about Greeks, Preston, but we are very volatile. We think first and act later. And so I'm thinking this thing could blow up, man. And I walked in at the moment, my brother was giving my mom this piece of paper from the government. And my mom's face changed

and she started crying. And she said, George, I'm so sorry. All the adoption laws in Australia in 1960, in the 60s were closed adoptions. We never thought you would find out and I promised your dad I would never tell him. And you could imagine, you know, that was a moment. I went into the kitchen and my mum came in and she said to me, Chris, since we're telling the truth today, do you want to know the whole truth? And that's how I found out. I went, oh my gosh, I've been adopted too. And I'm talking to you today, Preston, and still to this day, I don't know the circumstances surrounding my conception.

I don't know if it was an affair, a long time affair or a one night stand or a rape. And my birth certificate doesn't have a name on it. Where it says child's name typed in is the word unnamed, number 2508 of 1966. To me, numbers are numbing and dehumanizing and desensitizing. It's so easy to ignore suffering if it's nameless and faceless. I say 50 million slaves to you, it really means nothing. It's almost dehumanizing, desensitizing. But if I say to you 2508 of 1966, that means nothing. But the minute I say to you, that's Christine Kane, that changes everything because God doesn't make numbers. And so for me, no victim of trafficking is a number. No, you know, this is not just this

issue and there's numbers. I am one degree of separation from the people that I'm rescuing. So I'm number 2508 of 1966. And so obviously there are, my mother, I'll cut it all short. I mean, I've talked about this so much and written about it, but I'm left in a hospital, unnamed and unwanted So my mother, especially the 1960s, to be a single Greek immigrant woman pregnant outside of wedlock, I'm shame. So I'm conceived in shame. I'm left in a hospital in shame because my mom, my adopted mom, who was a great, great woman, but the shame of being Greek and not being able to conceive. So you know, you don't tell anyone that you're adopting this kid and, you know, you raise them and you don't tell anybody. So you've got some, I'm sort of adopted in shame, in love still, but in that, so shame is the only thing I ever knew.

It's like, you know, and so there was not healthy same-sex bonding or attachment with my, obviously my biological mum and great, great turmoil with my adopted mum. And I never really understood why until I was 33. And then the jigsaw puzzle came together. I'm like, oh, this explains a whole lot of that. And so of course then so much of that confusion is playing out in my life. And then you've got sexual abuse on top of that. And you've got being, you know, a Greek immigrant, very marginalized because of my ethnicity in a very racist Australia against Greeks and Italians. Put all that together. I am like a recipe for like, you think you might

have been a bit confused, Christine? Really? And I'm like, you know, so it would be, you know, I know in 2025, we don't like to talk too much about causation, but I would say a lot of those factors really played into a lot of my own, you know, just kind of like trying to work this out. And then it was not till I truly came to faith in Christ and then understood God's plan for men and women and finding my identity in Christ as a woman. What does that really mean? You know, I know that so much of the world is still asking the question, what is a woman? But I think scripture really, I just smile, I go, honey, I'm like, I'm old, I'm 58. We've been, we've been down, we've got that, we've got the t-shirt, we've got the DVD series, we've been there. It has been a great and

wonderful journey. So I think, and that's why I talk about the healing process, which is ongoing, this side of eternity. I'm being hopefully sanctified more and more through and through every day. And I'm being conformed and transformed to the image of Christ more and more. And who knew if you had told me at 20, I'd be married to Nick for nearly 30 years that we would have, you know, a 23 year old daughter, God so fit to give me daughters and a 19 year old daughter, and that it has been some of the most healing 20 odd years of my life. It has been also, and God really used my husband Nick to, in many ways, love me to wholeness in so much of that area. So, you know, it's just been an awesome journey. I mean, you know, I do what I do. I feel so blessed, so privileged and honored to be involved in the work of A21,

to be able to help women and strengthen women. I'm so passionate about the word because Jesus saved my soul, but the word of God literally is what renewed my mind and saved my mind. literally is what renewed my mind and saved my mind. And when I got the document that said I was unnamed, number 2508 of 1966, Preston, you know, I opened the scripture to Isaiah 49 verse 1 and it says, from the womb of your mother, I have named your name. So I'm holding a paper that says unnamed, 2508. And then I'm holding the scripture that says, from the womb of your mother, I've named your name. And in that moment, I just felt the Holy Spirit in my heart go, it's going to take you as much faith to believe this paper as that paper. Whatever black and white words you believe in this moment will determine where you go. And that

the choice to put my faith in from the womb of your mother, anyone can read it. Isaiah 49 verse one, from the womb of your mother, I have named your name. And then unnamed, two five, I wait. So that to me, the word of God, it's not a joke. It's not a game. It's yes, it's so complex in so many ways. And it calls us to a standard that oftentimes we think,

can I even do this? But through the power of the Holy Spirit, those words have transforming power and literally, I believe have rewired, renewed my mind. I'm a totally different woman at 58, going to be 59 this year than I was at 20. Thank you for your vulnerability. Goodness, to even speak of all that is intense, I'm sure. Where are we at with human slavery today? Is it still growing? Is it plateauing?

Is it lessening? And what are the ongoing causes? Is it this pornography player role? Is it greed and is there an economic piece to it? Probably both and, right? Is it getting worse and worse? When I say yes, it's very complicated. I'll say that, but I mean, the major forms of trafficking is actually not sex trafficking, it's forced labor trafficking. So is forced labor trafficking increasing around the world? Yes, that's actually where most of the numbers come from, out of the 50. The majority are not.

It's forced labor. No, sex trafficking is huge. Yeah. But forced labor, if anyone that does the research, they would say forced labor is the majority and especially where we are and the mass migration around the world, you know, every continent in the last, whatever, 20 years, so many wars, so much displacement, so much, you know, that has resulted in unbelievable forced labor trafficking all around the world. So that is the predominant. So many of us, we forget that because we think the transatlantic slave trade has been eradicated, therefore, this doesn't happen. There are more forced labor slaves in the world today than they have ever been at the height of the transatlantic slave trade. I've read that before. That's true. I've seen people say, wow.

That is true. You could go, anyone can research that, from really credible say. That is true. I mean, you could go, anyone can research that, you know, from really credible websites that that is a fact. The sex trafficking is just, especially the online grooming of minors, of course, always vulnerable women and children, economic reasons, huge part of it, huge part of it, especially in South America and, you know, Africa and Southeast Asia. A huge driver is lust and porn. I always say, at least in the Western world, at least the church's responsibility, literally, if people would stop watching porn,

I just think to the church, and I say this often when I'm teaching, I go, honestly, we would eradicate a lot of this because it's a supply and demand issue. You've just got to think. It's like if a woman or a child is thought of as being bought or sold, if you stop the demand, then you stop the supply. So if even just Christians stopped, I'm thinking like, and I say this because I think sometimes

people go like, are you trying to guilt people into it? I go, if that works, yes. If you can't stop because you go, well, it doesn works. Yes. Because, you know, you go, well, it doesn't really matter. I'm not really committing something because I'm not really physically, you know, in bed doing something with someone. But you're the person on the other side of the screen is a human being. More often than not, that human being has been taken against their will. And in many cases, especially when it's children, in particular regions of the world has been drugged against their will, is being held against their will,

is being exploited against their will. So you can rationalize this as much as you want. You are not gonna rationalize it when you stand before the Lord, because it's not, it is, you know, no wonder Jesus said, you know, I'm telling you, it's if you so much as think, I don't know why we downplay that

about you've committed adultery in your mind. If you so much, when we're visually doing it and justifying it, it's because I am physically not in bed with someone. I'm just looking at it on a screen. So I just kind of think, okay, if we could exercise the fruit of the spirit of self-control, and this is not rocket science.

We could help that stat go down overnight. I'm not even expecting the world to act like Christians. Like here we are trying to legislate everything and we're expecting non-Christians to act like Christians, but we can't even get Christians to act like Christians. I'm like, man, okay, could we actually just deal with this one? This is like 101 and we could help take that stat act like Christians, I'm like, man, okay, could we actually just deal with this? This

is like 101. And we could help take that stat overnight, we could change a lot of that. Because if we stop the demand for that, it would set a lot of people free. Is it like the more people consume porn, the more people will continue to produce porn? Is that what you're getting at? Or is it people that consume porn, some will end up? Yeah. And the darker you go into it, I mean, you know, I don't want to get too explicit, but what then begins to arouse you, you need more and it becomes either more violent or more perverted or more. And so what then is done? I mean, I would, you would freak if I tell you some of the cases with, you know, 18 year old children with, you know, displaced hips because of what's been done to them because of what, you know, certain

porn sites are demanding they want to see done to people in real time. I mean, you could cringe, you could cringe. So you just go, okay, like, no. And no, we could play a part in helping to stop some of that like immediately. What effect does it have on your soul being so close to such darkness? Like you're peeking into a room of just pure, like does that weigh on? It's evil. This is why when I say that people don't believe that there's a devil, I'm like that and people don't believe there's a hell. I'm like you're not involved in this sort of thing. Like when you do this sort of work, you hope there's a hell and you really, you know, you go this, theologically you don't have a

problem with the wrath of God, hell or evil or Satan. You don't think they don't exist. You can only think that that doesn't exist when you're living in your nice little bubble, kumbaya, holding hands and everything's right. But I'm like, get up close and personal with the lost in a broken world. And some of what you deem the more problematic doctrines of theology, you go, oh, there's a reason for them. I can see why they must exist. So I just think, you know, I can always tell whether someone's really up close and personal with a real evil in the world or not based on what they think about some of those things.

There's a thing, a real thing in this sort of work called compassion fatigue, which is why there's such a high turnover of people that are involved in that kind of thing. People distance themselves. The only way to cope is through numbing, perhaps substance abuse of some sorts. It's not that you start off bad, it's just you're trying to do so. So this is where my faith in Christ really rubber hits the road again.

So am I privy to everything all the time? No, there's no way. I mean, when my kids were small, I couldn't even go down some of those streets in Asia. My kids were exactly the same age. I had nowhere to process that. And I think you do need a theological framework. So both, you know, a great Christian therapist to talk through. I mean, again, you're up close and personal with

issues of theodicy all the time. Why doesn't God allow this? Like, so for me, this is not a nice class in seminary. I'm walking this out every day and going, okay, let's, um, but certainly where I've come to 17 years later is my faith in Christ is even stronger. I don't know where we would be without it. Like nothing else makes sense to me. Um, and I've been asked the hardest of hard questions, obviously being involved in this kind of work, but I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't, truly I know what it is that God can give you a peace that surpasses understanding. That's not just a nice Christian hallmark card for me. It surpasses understanding when you go, wow, how can you kind of be so peaceful knowing it's supernatural? How can the joy of the Lord be your strength? And Chris, why are you not bitter

and angry or in a fetal position sucking your thumb in a corner because this thing is so bad? I get it. I get why people would end up there without Christ. But everyone is going to, I mean, we're all going to confront that in one way, shape or form, whether it's personal disappointment, discouragement, disillusionment, betrayal, hurt, suffering, or mine's global. But I think God prepared me personally. I walked through so many things that by the time I see it en masse, I'm not overwhelmed by the bigness of it because it's always been for the one. I was the one. There's always a one. And I'm like, somehow I just truly believe that God can truly transform lives and that as a Christian,

even if people are not Christ followers, that I have a responsibility to bring a taste of heaven to earth. And I think in the area of justice and what does truth and beauty and goodness look like? I mean, they're great lofty terms. Well, it helped that part of what that looks like in Cambodia is starting a child advocacy center. That is truly good and truly beautiful and truly, you know, like I think that, okay, that's what that looks like. A freedom center that's going to help someone find restoration and healing and wholeness, you know, prosecuting traffickers and seeing justice impact affected in that way. So I

think it was Tyler, he wrote, I can't remember the name of the book, it will come to me, but he wrote a line that said, my shoulders, essentially, I'm not paraphrasing it right, but this is a sense that my shoulders are not broad enough to carry the burden of all of this. Only Jesus' are, and he bore that burden at Calvary. So I don't feel, I don't have a Messianic complex. I don't feel that I have to carry. That would take me out. Totally. I think you're not designed to carry it. So I do have a capacity to lay it at the feet of Jesus and know that he bore that. And I don't know that somehow in light of eternity, all things will be made new. And because I

think I do have a healthy sense that this isn't it. He is coming back. There will be new heavens and new earth, you know, like, and then there will be no more weeping and there'll be no more crime and there'll be no more trafficking and there'll be no more pain or suffering or injustice. So I, you know, I can live in that tension that it's not like, well, why do anything now? It's like, of course I will do something now. This is my vapor. This is my one and only shot to be salt and light. And this is my vapor. So I am compelled by my faith in Christ to do something now, but I'm also so cognizant that we live in a fallen world. Again, this is where I go back, the doctrines that nobody likes, sin and fallen. I'm like, please don't take it out of your vocabulary because

you're going to really need to have some of those terms to help us really work out what is happening in this world and to be able to get up and go. And the one still just matters to me, the rest I have to give to God because I truly believe that everyone matters to Him. And so only He can be God. I cannot be God. And I can play my part. And I think when there's a healthy robust understanding, He is God, I am not. That it is a privilege and an honor to serve in this way. And I know that I'm always getting a little bit out of whack. This is why spiritual disciplines matter. You never grow out of it. My daily time with the Lord being in the word prayer, just your basic spiritual practices really, really matter because they're the only things

ultimately that root you and ground you involved in this. And I would say involved in this work, but I would say just involved in being a Christian in the world, no matter what work you're doing. And this is where to me, it really matters and it really makes a difference. So anyway, if you were saying, Chris, ultimately, how do you cope? I know that I'm not God. And Jesus bore this on the cross. And ultimately, all of the powers and principalities and darkness and sin and death were defeated on the cross. And I know that one day we're going to live in the fullness of that. We're just not in that now. That doesn't paralyze and cripple me. It actually

motivates and activates me to do something. Got a question here from one of our patrons who's listening in live. She wants to know, what do you see happening when countries legalize prostitution? Is that making a dent in trafficking? So is legalization of prostitution, does that affect things at all or? This is the age old argument. And I want to, you know, of course I'll have to be careful because then I've got all the prostitution lobby groups going, you're trying to shut down prostitution. I'm like, no, what I'm trying to do is help rescue those that don't want to be in that place that are there forcibly. So does it make it a little bit

more complicated legislatively? And yes, it does when it's legal. But when people say to me, is that your fight? No, that's not my fight. My fight is not to go and make sure that prostitution is made illegal. My fight is to make sure that no woman, man or child that doesn't want to be engaged in that is engaged in that against their will. Let's, for the last few minutes, let's give people a bit of an emotional break for a second. This is... Oh, sorry, guys! No, there's, especially those of us in the West, we need to frequently be alert to stuff

going around, not just around the world, but I mean, in our country as well. But I mean, I think that's a healthy thing to do. Your ministry on the lighter side has taken you around the world to over a hundred different countries. Is that? Almost, just about. We're there, yeah. Wow. Do you have some favorite places you've been to? Yeah, I do. Is that too hard of a question to narrow it down? No, not really. I mean, I love the whole world and I always say, well, God so loved the world.

So that's why I love the world. But I'm particularly drawn to sort of the Eastern European block and yeah, I really, really love, I love Slovenia. I love very much that whole region Czech, well, you know, I love the Czech Republic. I love Greece very much, of course. Now, you know, I have a child studying in Paris, France. My favorite cities in the world would be Paris, Rome, Prague, and Budapest, which probably be my top four. I've been to all of those except Budapest.

Prague, I've been there a couple of times, love, Prague's. Prague's just like, I mean, I wanted to relocate and be there. Oh, yeah. And if you love Prague, you could potentially love Budapest even more. That's what I hear. I know some people, they say they like Budapest more

than the other provinces. I'm right there, like it's borderline. Are they similar? I mean, they're different countries, but I mean, is it similar culture? Yes. Yeah. Because you're sort of all that region. Yeah.

I've never been to any other Eastern. I've been to Western Russia, so pretty close to the Belarus border. It was beautiful. So much more beautiful than I was expecting. I don't know why I wasn't expecting it to be beautiful. And Estonia, Lithuania, that whole region. Yeah, I've never been to any, wow. You love it, I mean, because you love traveling too.

So I love that. And I mean, Nick and I are hoping, you know, in this sort of next run of our ministry life, we really get to do a whole lot more work over there. We love it so much. I love, me and my wife's from France and we've been there several times and just, I love the, I mean, obviously the food culture, but it's just not, not that it's just good food,

but the way food and conversations and slowing down is just written in the fabric of the culture. Like, and even it frustrates Americans when they go oftentimes, cause they'll go to a restaurant and they don't bring the bill. You have to go out of your way to get the bill because it's from their, it's like rude't bring the bill. You have to go out of your way to get the bill because it's from their, it's like rude to bring the bill. Cause that's like, we don't want to rush you out of here. We want you to have a three hour conversation over your meal. So, um, and I love it. It's the first few days. It's always a little hard. So I'm like, Hey, we've got places to go.

We need to go. We need to go, you know? And I'm like, no, this is a two sitting down for two and a half hours, three hours, four hours. So you just have ongoing conversations over a lengthy meal. It's so good for the soul, especially for us Americans that are just- I'm going with you. Oh, man. Man. Well, I'm a big fan of Australia too. I spent some time in Melbourne and all along the Eastern coast, Cairns, Gold Coast. We spent five weeks in Melbourne and man, the coffee there.

Come on. Melbourne is a great country. Oh, my word. Have you been to Sydney? I'm a Sydney girl. Sydney. Oh, I love. We actually did the whole New Year's Eve where you wait like 12 hours for the most amazing

firework display. I mean, that was a hard 12 hours. I was sitting in this little circle with my family for 12 hours. But that was, yeah, Sydney is, I fell in love with Sydney. I was on a baseball trip when I was in high school. We went and played baseball there and the city was so gorgeous and clean and just, I really resonate with the Australian personality if I can make such a broad statement. I did you do because I've listened to you enough and but I thought you could be an Aussie because you-

Yeah. Just know where you are. Just honest and not a- I feel like it takes the best of America and British. It's somewhere almost in between. It has that kind of pioneering spirit. People are very outgoing and honest. You can talk to people.

I love the beach culture that is, you know, all along the East coast. Yeah. Anyway, I, I love your Island. We'll adopt you honor. I'll do it. I'll take it. I'll take it. Well, Christine, this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm kidding. If anybody is listening and they're like, gosh, I want to be a part of this. Is there like volunteer opportunities? Like if people say, I want to help, what can they do? I think there's quite a robust sort of internship program as well and volunteer opportunities all

around the world. So if people just go to a21.org, all the information is there for them. Thanks so much, Christine. Really appreciate you and your ministry. Appreciate the conversationverge Podcast Network. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day, Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann,

joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors, and all high performers in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance.

So on this season, my good friend, Dr. Daniel Layman will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas. And I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up the doctor and the nurse on the David Nurse Show coming at you.