Theology in the Raw - A Raw Conversation about Podcasting, Platforming, and Handling Criticism: Annie Downs

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Annie F. Downs is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and podcast host of the super popular “That Sounds Fun” podcast. She’s based in Nashville, TN and also NYC. Some of her bestselling books including Chase the Fun, That Sounds Fun, 100 Days to Brave, Remember God, and her about to be released children’s book called: Where Did TJ Go?: A Book for Kids on Grief and Loss.Resources Annie mentioned about singleness: https://www.anniefdowns.com/pastoringsingles -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We're going to have an after party on Friday night and lots of fun stuff in between. All the information is at theljandron.com. You won't want to miss this conference. I'm looking forward to hanging out with as many of you as I can. My guest today is the one and only Annie F. Downs, who is a New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and podcast host of the uber popular,

That Sounds Fun podcast. She's based in Nashville, Tennessee, and also in New York in Manhattan. Some of her bestselling books include, Chase the Fun, That Sounds Fun podcast. She's based in Nashville, Tennessee, and also in New York, in Manhattan. Some of her best selling books include, Chase the Fun, That Sounds Fun, 100 Days to Brave, Remember God, and her about to be released children's book called, Where Did TJ Go?,

a book for kids on grief and loss. Would highly encourage you to check out this book. There's not really much out there like this book that helps kids walk through trauma and grief, especially if a loved one has passed. So I so enjoyed this conversation. We just talked a lot about podcasting life and just kind of went where the conversation blew us.

So it was loads of fun to get to know Annie. We've known each other from a distance. This is the first time I actually sat down and chatted with her. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Annie F. Downs. ["The First Time"] Annie Downs, how are you doing today?

I am so honored to be here, Preston. Thank you so much for having me. This is three years in the making at least. I've been wanting to have you on. So I'm glad we made this happen. Same. And Turnabout will be fair play because when we ask who people want to have on that sounds fun.

Preston Sprinkle's name and Joanna Gaines. You and Joanna Gaines are two of the people that the crowd is waiting on. So we would love to have you on our show too. Wow. Well, sign me up. I'm all for it. Speaking of podcasting, you are crushing it in the podcast space. How old is your podcast? When did you start?

So I started in November of 14. So we just celebrated in 2024. We celebrated 10 years and 100 million downloads. Oh, wow. So that is, yeah. So that's right. So we're kicking off a brand new, I mean, we kind of feel like we're starting over again. Like we got over in this brand new thing. We're not doing normal interviews. We're going winter, spring, summer, fall. We're discipling the audience through four seasons

of the year. It's like nothing we've ever done before. So it's really fun. It's a fun time to be in podcasting because it's all kind of, you know, this, it's all been turned on its head over the last two years. So we're getting to kind of dream again in some new ways. I'm really into it. What can you go back to like, take us back to 2014? Like what podcasting was so new back then,

too. Like what, what, what was the impetus for you starting the podcast? Well, I had a couple of podcasts I listened to, like the relevant podcast, you know, like relevant was OG for so many of us. They were doing it Cameron and then we're doing it before anybody was and so I would listen But what had happened is a there's a novelist named Ted Decker who writes wild Christian fiction that is just like fun Just suspenseful. It's crazy. It's great stuff And I have been a big fan of his writing and one of his PR people reached out to me and said, Ted has a book coming out. Would you want to interview him? And I was like, sure. I have a blog and I have Twitter.

You know, like what, where do you want to release it? And she said, have you ever thought about starting a podcast? And I said, that sounds fun. And I was like, that sounds fun. I say that all the time. So I went and I went and Googled it and that podcast didn't exist. And that's how it started is my first two episodes fun. I say that all the time. So I went out and Googled it and that podcast didn't exist.

And that's how it started is my first two episodes that are, you know, a thousand episodes ago now were Ted Decker talking about his novels about the life of Jesus. And then it just kind of, it kind of kept rolling because pressing my like, one of my giftings from God is how much I like my friends being friends with my friends. Like I like connecting things. Before we started recording, you and I were talking about all these mutual friends we share and that's one of my favorite things. And so what I get to do on That Sounds Fun is introduce my friends that are guests to

my friends that are listeners. It is one of my favorite things I've ever gotten to do for the last, now, 11 years. Did you have a mission statement, a purpose, a focus early on? Or were you just like, I'm just going to talk to people and see how it goes? You wish. You wish I'd been that responsible. No, it was like, hey, what are the new restaurants in Nashville? Let's get somebody on to talk about it. And then I just called my friend. I mean, I genuinely just called people for the first hundred episodes. I was like, and because I write books and was already speaking and traveling,

like I had friends who had things coming out. So I was like, do you want to talk about it for a podcast? And you know, the first hundred episodes are people being, well, all of them are, but the first hundred episodes were truly people being so generous to me to sit and talk. That's still what I find to be true, is it's so generous when we get to do this, right?

When we sit down and use our time this way. I did not have a mission statement. I genuinely just thought, I want to talk to my friends and record it. And then this has probably happened for you too, Preston, but what's ended up happening now is I get to sit down with people that 19-year-old Annie would lose her mind that Cece Winans sat across from me,

or Steven Curtis Chapman, or Beth Moore. I mean, Darlene Sheck was in here in the fall. I'm in the studio right now. And when I tell you eight minutes in, I was sobbing over Shout to the Lord. Like, who gets to do it? You know, like, it's just crazy that we get to sit with these heroes. But, you know, like, it's just crazy that we get to sit with these heroes.

But you know, so often that's what has come of it is getting to sit down with these people that I've long respected and loved and getting to say like, your word mattered to, I am doing this because of shout to the Lord in 1995 or eight 98, whatever it is, you know? And that's been a real, that has felt like a gift God's given me

in the process of this job. Did it like, cause your podcasts, if people don't know, it's huge. It's one of the top, at least highly ranked Christian podcasts. I'm for sure it's in the top 200 podcasts in general, I would imagine. Was it like a slow growth or was there a spike?

I know a lot of people spiked during COVID because people were kind of rushing to podcast. Certainly, certainly. I mean, 2020 and 2021 were very good years professionally for me. Personally, they were terrible for everyone, right? But so yes, it was both pressing. It was like this slow increase.

And then we would have a couple of shows that would give us a spike that would stay. And then we did a series on the Enneagram in I wanna say 2019. And it like massively changed the show doing that series. So like the first time, what you've probably experienced too is celebrities don't bring audience. doing that series. So like the first time, what you've probably experienced too is

celebrities don't bring audience. So like when Matthew McConaughey was on, I don't even think he told his wife, you know, like he doesn't, we got a spike that day because there were people in my audience who don't listen to podcasts that wanted to hear Matthew McConaughey, but they didn't stay.

And so what we often, you know, I have a podcast network we run called the That Sounds Fun Network where we support about 30 podcasts, different podcasts and meet with those podcasters, help them do what they wanna do. And we often say to people, do not bring guests for their audience,

bring guests to bless your audience. So if you think you're bringing Matthew McConaughey on because he's gonna get you more listeners, he's not. Guests don't do that. What they do is bless your audience and get them more connected to you as the host. And so we haven't had these shows, except for two in the history of our show

that caused a spike that sustained. But then we've had a couple of series. What we see is that series like the Enneagram. We did a series on dating called Summer Lovin that that grew the audience that day. So that's kind of what we've seen. But you're right. 2020. I mean, people were walking outside all the time. People were stuck at home. People were needing community.

And so podcasting really, I remember talking to Jeff Bethke about this, because in 20 and 21, so many people started shows, we thought this will probably be the peak of podcasting. And what actually ended up happening is 23 was the peak of podcasting of people starting shows. And so a lot of us, you may have experienced this too, a lot of us had pretty challenging

2023 and 2024 of podcasting because of the amount of shows that it started. Yeah, I think mine, 2023 was the most downloads I had. But then last year, didn't, I think Apple changed the way they measure downloads or streams or something. So the numbers went down, but my producer said that's not a real, like you can't compare it to the year before because it's just shifting the way they measure it. Yeah, tell that to those of us with tender egos like me and possibly you, right? Like it's not apples to apples anymore and you're like, but are we going to survive? You know? So yeah, you're exactly right. There were a lot of technology changes in Q3 and Q4 of 23 that played out in some pretty significant ways

for podcasts in 24. And one of the benefits of running a network and watching 30 different podcasts is that we saw it happen across the entire industry. So it wasn't like, oh no, Annie's show is having trouble. It was like, oh no, there's an industry shift. What do we do? And if we don't innovate in everything we do, what are we doing? Like, what are we doing anyway? And so it ended up being a

gift, but it's been a challenging 18 months of podcasting. Have you, again, going back to like 2020, 2014 to now, like have you shifted in any way in your podcast, your approach, the, your unstated mission or whatever? I mean, if you go back and listen to episodes from 2016, are they vastly different than now, or have you been doing the same thing all along? In a lot of ways, it's the same. It is bringing people on. I mean, we've made some decisions in the middle

that we've learned from, right? I mean, for a long time, what I wanted was to have any kind of conversation I could have and trust the audience to be nuanced in their listening and in what they received and trusted that I was good enough as a host to be nuanced in my interviewing. Okay. None of that proved true, mostly me.

And so that's some things we've learned and you do this really well Preston with Theology in the Raw is that it is possible to love everyone and not platform everyone. And I wanted to do both. And I had to learn, I had to learn what does it look like to love and support friends and not necessarily have public conversations

that tens to hundreds of thousands of people listen to because every episode, you're doing this right now, every episode is an endorsement of a person. And I'm grateful for that because I think so highly of you that that's what you're subconsciously doing is endorsing me as a human by having me on. And so that as my podcast has grown and shifted,

as the industry has grown and shifted, I had to start making some decisions about like, if any celebrity reaches out, is that a yes? If any massive name reaches out, is that a yes? Well, it used to be and it's not anymore. So that, okay, yeah. So did you get, because you have a wide variety of guests on,

have you gotten critiqued for having certain people on? Like, hey, you platform this person, this is not a helpful voice. And how have you responded? Yes, because what can happen is, you platform that person in 2015, and I don't like the decision they made in 2022, you need to say something.

I can't, I had them on in 2015, but you just heard the 2015 episode, but you don't like what they did in 22. And so you think there's something for me to do currently, and there isn't. There's not, that's not to your control. I mean, you can't control people's future and trajectory. So what we started doing about three years ago, Preston,

is we do kind of a State of the Union on Epiphany. On Epiphany, I do an episode that is just me and I kind of go through like, hey, here's where we're going this year on the podcast. Here's where I think God's leading us. And something I say every year is, there are going to be guests you don't agree with and there are gonna be decisions I make

that you don't agree with. So I need to let you know upfront, I am a human who is growing and changing. I'm growing and changing in front of you. I've been in front of you as a podcaster for 11 years, twice to three times a week. I hope I've grown and changed, but you also have to allow me to keep growing and changing.

And that means you're not gonna love every interview. You're not gonna agree with every guest. You're not gonna understand why I'm friends with some of the people I'm friends with if our theologies don't match. And so I kind of set that up at the beginning of every year now in hopes that that at least saves me 10% of the DMs I would have gotten

if I wouldn't have prepped people to say, your invitation is to listen with a nuanced heart and you're allowed to disagree with me and you're allowed to disagree with our guests and you're allowed to wonder why I had someone on that you didn't like in 2020 because of how they stood on something. And I don't always agree with all our guests either, right?

I mean, and so that's part of the, you get this, that's part of the nuance of this is that I see someone tweet something, or I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I see someone on Instagram do something and I go, kinda am concerned that I have them scheduled three weeks from now to be on the pod. But here we go, let's party, you know?

The Twitter version of every human is always the worst version of that human. I'll see people on Twitter, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're so pugilistic and combative and black and white and extreme. And then I'll meet them in person and they're so kind and gentle. So lovely.

I'm like, wait, is this the same person? Do you know, I was in Montana this weekend with Levi and Jenny Lesko. I was teaching at Fresh Life, and it was really beautiful. I got to teach on how singleness is an abundant life, even if it's not the only life you want, right? And it was beautiful. But one of the things we talked about

is who are the people you've experienced online that you have found to be that God has used their real life to convict you, right? Like when you actually sit down with them, you go, oh, this is a very lovely person. And that happens all the time. So I've kind of stopped assuming people in our job are exactly who they are online and I wait to meet them in person. Yeah. Well, is that why you got off Twitter? Just cause it was toxic or I got off Twitter because in about two years ago, three years ago, a portion of the internet got really unhappy with me and the place

they were the most unhappy and because of someone I had platformed was on Twitter. And all of a sudden these women who had been on my team this whole time were saying things about me that I could not imagine anyone saying about anyone. And that had that three tweets ago had been telling people to listen to my podcast. And now we're saying that Terrible things about me that felt so misunderstood and I thought I don't have to be here. I don't know why I'm here

They what what if I let everyone believe we can't control anybody thinks about us What if I let them think what they want to think over there on a place where I'm not because that is happening constantly People think what they want to think about me when I'm not there all day long, every day. And you don't need to stare at that every day. I don't have to see it. And they're welcome to have their opinions and disagree with my decisions.

I just don't have to look at it. And so I left and I have not missed it at all, Preston. I mean, someone on our team posts when my podcasts come out there, but I have not missed it at all. I have not missed, I'm sorry, I missed it during award shows. Like I miss it when award shows are on and there's that like quick choppy back and forth stuff. Other than that, I have not missed it for a day. So you've been clean for about three years.

I've been Twitter clean for three years. Never wanted to go back. You don't have to if you don't want to, but can you speak to that person you plat? Like, who, can you say who it was or what happened or their, or what you had in mind? It's a friend that had made decisions people weren't happy with. And I was celebrating my friend

and people felt like a celebration of a current life was an endorsement of a full life. And that isn't necessarily true. And so that's been the thing that's been important for me to learn is what I consider, man, I am proud to be friends with this person. And I still am. Does not fully endorse every decision a person has ever made. I'm not proud of every decision I've ever made.

And so, but I would like my friends to still be proud of me when a new book comes out or when I release a new thing, or even if they haven't been proud of everything I've ever done. Yeah. And so, but that's okay. I mean, that's an important thing to learn. Beth Moore called me, which can you imagine

when my phone rang, I went like, this must be, this is cool and must be worse than I realized. And she said, your first one is your worst one. The first time the internet comes for you is by far your worst one. She says, it'll last longer than you think it'll last. It'll hurt more than you think it'll hurt, but it is giving you thicker skin

and it is giving you important muscles that you need as a person, not even as a public person. She was like, but as a person, this is really important. And she was true in every way. It hurt more than I thought it would hurt. It lasted longer than I wanted it to last. And I survived it. And people are allowed to feel their feelings

about all of it. But I lived, and my job lived, and it will happen again, Preston. Someone will get mad at me again. There will come a day where there is a thing that makes people unhappy with me in a bigger than two people, a group of two, and it will hurt, and it will last longer

than I want it to last, and it will make me sick, and it will make me cry, and I am better prepared for it than I was four years ago. Yeah, that's just the inevitable nature of being a public person in the age of social media when everybody who has an internet connection and a keyboard can express their opinion.

And I think that's, I don't know, like I kind of like what we were saying earlier, it doesn't, when I look at, well, I'm still on Twitter. When I look at Twitter, I'm like, this does not represent the majority of how actual humans talk. First of all, I don't know how many bots there are on there, but the people that just spend all day on Twitter,

like you just see them always. Their comments are always up. That's a very unhealthy person. That's not the average person. I mean, that's not. In fact, there's even been studies done, something like 5% of, what is it, 5% or 10% of people with a Twitter account are responsible for like 90% of the tweet.

Like this is a small sampling of how actual people think about you and the work you're doing. Most people that probably really love what you're doing won't even tell you, you'll probably never hear about it. There's like the silent majority that like, yeah, I love what Annie's doing, even if I always agree with her. Yeah, my counselor helped me a lot with this.

She, and I found this to be really helpful. She said, I want you to start imagining every comment in a different font color. She said, if it is someone that you don't know at all, you've never seen their name, they don't know anything about you except they follow you. It's in black, just like you see it. It's in black.

And then if it's someone that has been around a while that you recognize their name, they maybe come to events, it's in black. And then as, if it's someone that has been around a while that you recognize their name, they maybe come to events, it's in green, it's in green. That matters a little bit more than the total stranger. And then if it's someone that you've ever met in real life, but maybe you don't have their phone number, it's in orange. And so you should pay attention to what they're saying because they're in your life and you've met them.

You and I don't have each other's phone numbers yet. So you would be orange to me, right? Like you'd be orange where it's like, Preston's an important voice, of course he is. We've been in the same place. We haven't ever texted. And then red are the people that have your phone number. And she said, red matters most.

So whenever the internet gets worked up at you or whenever something goes sideways or whenever people are proud of you, John Aikov says, don't believe the top 10% or the bottom 10%. the internet gets worked up at you, or whenever something goes sideways, or whenever people are proud of you, John Aikoff says, don't believe the top 10% or the bottom 10%. He's like, neither of them are telling you the truth. And so the red voices in my life,

someone who's coming to my mind that we share, Gabe Lyons. Gabe Lyons is a red voice in my life. They're very good friends to me. I've been on vacation with them. We also share work, right? So if Gabe calls me over something, that is worth my attention in a different way

than a text or a comment from someone I've never met before who doesn't follow me. And so as I've learned to kind of put people in their right category, it has also really helped me to interact. I mean, after the election, I thought, now blame me for being the dumbest person you've ever been friends with. It has also really helped me to interact. I mean, after the election, I thought, now blame me for being the dumbest person

you've ever been friends with. I thought I could have a very calm conversation on the internet the day after the election. Good luck with that. I know, I really tried pressing, because what I said to myself is, what I said to myself is, if I could talk to everyone who followed me,

what would I say? I would say, do you need to talk about this? Cause I would love to listen. I would love to, do you need a place to say how you're feeling? I would love to listen if you're excited, if you're heartbroken or whatever. Call me an idiot, I am.

It just got a little spicier than I expected. And I got to do again, this practice of like people flooding my DMs that were mad at me. And I got to say, I hear you, you don't even follow me. So you don't have to. And so because I've had practice in this now, and because I know what color everyone's text is to me, anyone who's in black, I can go, go with God, go with God.

I may not be for you, I may not be for you. But the people who were texting me saying, saying their thoughts like on my phone, into my phone, those people I paid that got more of my time than the people who are mad at me on the internet. I really tried, Preston. It really was like my most balanced chance. I thought this will be helpful.

And it was to some people. And a lot of people found it helpful. It also caused a little bit more of a stir than I meant to. Lesson learned, lesson learned. This episode is brought to you by Mitopure by Timeline. Mitopure is the only urolithium A supplement on the market that's clinically proven to target the effects of age-related cellular decline.

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So for theology and neural listeners, Timeline is offering 10% off your first order of Mitopure if you just go to timeline.com forward slash theology. Okay, that's timeline.com forward slash theology. Go check it out. It is true about the resilience piece though. Like the more you've been in this, the more you go through these waves of criticism, some might be helpful and you learn from it. Others are just noise. And, and I don't know if it's changed over the last few years since you've been off Twitter, but it seems that,

like there's like a 24 hour, or 48 hour, somebody's gonna be angry for 48 hours at you and you'll get a pile on, and then they'll move on to something else. That's right. If you just hold your breath, stay off your phone for a couple of days, it's not that big of a deal anymore.

That's right, it certainly has. Between, I would back up to 2016, it's kind of, I felt like 16, 17, or when people started getting canceled, right? And I feel like over the last eight years, whatever that math is, we are to a place of where the creator can choose to learn, can choose to continue and not learn,

or can choose to continue and not learn or can choose to stop. And versus maybe five or six years ago where it was like, oh no, I'm gonna lose everything. And now it's more like, okay, people are mad. What about my real people? And what can I learn from this? And how did I, do I stand by what I said? Do are me and God okay?

Right? Like, do I still believe that I did right by what I know and what I believe God would have me do? Are the red people in my life, what are they saying? What's my mentor saying? What's my pastor saying? And then you're right, the windows are shorter. The windows are shorter than they used to be.

And so all of that leads us to more resilience as creators and as people trying to impact culture. We are going to make mistakes. I would probably do that day after the election posts differently than I did, but it did not spin me out. When my DM was filled with mad people, it did not spin me out like it would have when I hadn't had practice with this

two or three times before. I think people realize now that when people try to cancel somebody else, all it does is elevate their platform. Like, there's a history of that. Like, do you know anybody who has been canceled that doesn't have a bigger platform now? Now, do you want that audience?

Do you want the audience who showed up when everybody got mad? I don't know, that's your choice. But yes, you're exactly right, is what it does is it refines your audience. And what it used to be is we're gonna yell at you until you're different. And now it is, I'm gonna yell at you

and then I'm gonna go. And that's what they do. And you go like, go with God. Like, honestly, if this thing is, if you're trying to decide if you can't be friends with me over this, there will be another this. That's what, when people slide into my DMs, Preston,

and they say, where do you stand on so-and-so? Where do you stand on so-and-so? I need to know. And my response always is, what is gonna happen to our friendship if we disagree? And often they never respond to me. Because what they're actually, they don't actually, they do care where I stand

on a certain thing, but what they actually wanna know is are we on the same team? I can't support you if we're not on the same team. And my response is, if we're not on the same team, if even if we're on the same team about this, if you can't follow someone that you don't fully agree with, you should go ahead and go. It'll be something else.

And go find the person that you fully agree with because it will not be me. Because also I love the Atlanta Falcons and I'm never going to change. And if you don't love the Atlanta Falcons and we can't be friends over that, go ahead and go because I also love the Atlanta Braves. Like I've just, it's not going to change, right?

And so I'm going to be a Georgia Bulldog. I'd rather lose as a Bulldog than win as anybody else. And so I'm going to be those things. If one of those bothers you, the next one's going to bother you. So you should just go ahead and, and I wish you well. I don't want bad for anyone who unfollows us, right? But go with God.

I'm doing the best I can being a human publicly. And it is a harder, it is a different thing than you are. I knew we were signing up for a decade ago. Yeah. No, I mean, this is a whole new genre. It still isn't. I mean, you look back in 50 years, people are gonna see this as just a really fresh,

innovative new thing that we're doing in this whole podcast world. You know, it's just, what is it? It's just such a flexible, diverse genre that we're still trying to figure out. But, you know, going back to the whole, like, I just, I don't know. I tried to make this clear and I still, I'm still trying to figure out where the lines are with regard to having a diverse range of guests on. Because I don't think it's, I guess

it depends on what you're doing on the podcast. Like I often say, my podcasts are curious conversations with interesting people. They're not sermons from a stage. It's like me talking to an interesting neighbor, hitting record, and letting other people listen in. That doesn't mean I'm endorsing my neighbor. Maybe he'll say something I disagree with and I'll say, hey, I don't agree with that. Or maybe I'll read the situation and say, yeah, I want to

get to know this person and this viewpoint. That doesn't mean I'm endorsing it. I'm just trying to understand it. Now, if I was pastor to church, many of my guests, I wouldn't have given a guest sermon because that's a different genre. That is authoritative. That is saying, here's what I think is true, and I think you should believe this and do it too. But the podcast, at least the way I go about it, isn't that. And I think people get thrown off when they assume it's more like sermons from a stage,

rather than just giving it to somebody. But sometimes, I don't know, sometimes I, like you, I go back, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have had that guest on or maybe I'd let that point go that I actually think is wrong. And because it's on this podcast, people think I'm endorsing it when I'm just trying to understand it. And so I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out.

But you're doing it, I hear you say it on the show. The more that you remind us as your listeners that these are conversations that you're welcome to agree or disagree with. Like the more you remind us of that as listeners, but it is the invitation to the listener to be nuanced in their listening and go like, this is not a sermon. You're exactly right.

This is us figuring it out and having a conversation. And yet podcasting is so uniquely intimate, more intimate than a sermon on a Sunday morning, because right now you and I are in the ears of men and women who are on walks by themselves, commuting on trains, going through the grocery store, folding their laundry. And on a Sunday morning, we're sitting in community most often.

And so this feels, podcasting feels very personal to people. And in a season of the planet where some people feel very unwelcome in churches, they feel very welcomed by you and me in podcasting. And so that is all the things we hold every time we make a show, is I want people who are curious about church or concerned about church to feel like

that sounds fun as a place they are welcome, but I cannot be their church because I'm gonna have conversations about football or about soccer or about cooking, or I'm gonna have conversations that are not just spiritual growth, but I am gonna to have spiritual growth conversations. So it is, we get to hold all of that every time we make an episode.

Do you ever feel like your podcast is competing with people's church community or experience? Have you ever wrestled with that? I sure hope not. I hope it isn't competing with, I hope if they're choosing on a Sunday morning from nine to 10 to go to church or listen to that sounds fun. I hope it isn't a decision. I hope that isn't. I hope instead what they feel is that that sounds fun aligns with the rest of the spiritual disciplines

and life disciplines that they are trying to invite in to shape their life the way they hope it gets shaped. And so I haven't thought of it as a competition for a church. I hope it isn't. Why is that? 100% your intention isn't that. Right. But sometimes I get people pretty frequently will say, you know, I love listening to your podcast because I feel like I can think out loud.

I can ask questions in my own mind. I can listen to other people ask hard questions. In my church environment, I can't do that. We come, we listen, we leave, whatever. Maybe they're in a situation where it's not very authentic. They was like, oh, I could never ask this question because people would look at me like, why are you asking that? Or if I even thought, hey, I think I'm leaning towards this theological view, people would like ostracize me where I feel like the all genera is a place where I can just kind of breathe a little bit. While that's very encouraging,

I'm like, man, thank you, that's super, that's what I want. But then I'm like, gosh, I never wanna unintentionally replace people's church community. Well, the reality is no shoes, no shirt, no service. In that we also have to wear a shirt when we go to church, right? Like at home, you don't have to be fully dressed.

You get to be more comfortable and more relaxed. The thing our listeners are not gonna be well-served in themselves to do is to say, I wish I was not having to wear a shirt at church because I don't have to wear a shirt when I listen to Preston. It's like, well, no, that's two totally different things, right? So your expectation of a podcast should not be your expectation of a church

because there is a very different relationship with a podcast than a church. Now, when it comes to deep questions, I do hope our churches make space for that and our small groups make space for that. But because you didn't give a specific example, I will give a non-specific rebuttal to that person that said that to you of like, here's my version of that.

When I talk about singleness in the church, this just happened to me. I had multiple people from the same church in another city reach out and say to me, I wish my church did this. And I said, do y'all all see each other? Get together and do it. You are asking your church to meet a need for you. The four of you could get together and meet that need.

Go be the answer to the problem you have. And so I get to say that to single people a lot. In your church where you are having, where you feel unseen, where you feel like they don't have program for you, where you feel like they don't have groups for you, start it, be a part of it. And so what I would say to the people saying to you,

I don't have a, I can't ask these questions, I can't dig into this. Yeah. Get around the table with two other people from your church and see if you can. Like versus asking the church to do that for you. Why don't you do that for the church? And instead of expect the church to be the place where you don't have to wear a shirt. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's good. And even if it is a critique of the church, church should never be a place

where people would say, like, I could never ask my pastor that question or I wish I had space in the church to ask this question or wrestle out loud with this. Or if I even said, hey, I'm leaning towards this or help me think through this, people would push me away. And if people say, well, that's being critical to church or you're, I'm like, well, for the leaders listening,

it's like, well, do something different because that's not really healthy. If people are coming to a podcast to get what they're not getting at church, I don't know. Part of me wants to say, is that my fault? Right. I don't think it, no, I don't think so. I think the solution is Brad who's listening to this

and is like, man, I wish my church would talk about this stuff more. Then what I'd say to Brad is like, hey, Brad wish my church would talk about this stuff more, then what I'd say to Brad is like, hey, Brad, call your group's pastor at your church and set a meeting with Katie. She's the group's pastor. And you and Katie sit down and have a conversation about like, hey, I love Preston Sprinkles podcast

and I would really love to talk to people about it. Next month when we launch groups, can I host a group that is a podcast listening group where we always listen to Preston's podcast and then we talk about it? Will you add that as one of the groups we launch? And Katie goes, no, I'm just thinking it up. Are you making this up on the fly?

Cause that, and I'm not advertising Mike, but something like that would be, I think people would love that. Katie, who's leading groups and trying to get everybody plugged in for community because she's getting emails constantly of people who feel lonely in their church with love for Brad to start another group

because she's dying for group leaders. Brad is dying to have a conversation about these questions he feels like he can't ask Sunday morning on the greeting team. And so he can start this group and both people are served and the other people in the church who are looking to have deeper conversations go like, I'll listen to theology in the raw

and have these conversations for the next six months, right? So there are solutions of how to get this into our church without just expecting the church staff to know what we need and divinate what we need and start telling us that they are going to provide the things. Are you, I'm sorry, Sif Gears, are you a pastor? Have you been a pastor or been involved in church ministry in any way? I've never worked for a church. I am on the teaching team at CrossPoint in Nashville.

So five times a year I teach on Sunday mornings at CrossPoint, but I've never worked for a church. Okay, Okay. Yeah. But I mean, I grew up in church. I've always been in church. I worked for a Parachurch ministry, the Wesley Foundation at the University of Georgia for a year after college. But because I'm a teaching pastor here and I am ordained at Crosspoint, so I'm a teaching pastor at Crosspoint. And because I'm not married, I hear from both those groups of people a lot. So I can brainstorm up solutions a lot because I hear a lot of single people.

I mean, we did a survey a couple of months ago. We have a singles group we run called Single Purpose League. And we did a survey and 65 of them said they didn't feel supported by their local church, 65%. And then we said, where do you wanna meet someone? And like of the top 10 places, four of them involve the church. And we're like, they want to be there.

They don't feel supported. What do we do? How do we help? And so part of this conversation you are having is because my brain has been in, how do we resource pastors? And how do we talk to singles about solving the problem that they are experiencing versus expecting the pastor to solve it.

That's good. You've been single your whole life? Yeah, I'm not married yet. Not married, no kids. Is this like a calling vocation or is it I'm single and I would like to be married if the right person came along, but I'm content being single? Yes. Okay.

Yes. I am. This is the strongest yes. This is the highest theology yes you're going to get from me. Yes, I want content being single. Okay. Yes, I am. This is the strongest yes. This is the highest theology yes, you're gonna get from me. Yes, I wanna be married. Yeah, and you know, Preston, so, you know, I've been doing the podcast for 10 years. This has been my full-time job writing, speaking and podcasting since April of 2012.

So I'm on my 13th year of this as my full-time job. And I've been unmarried that entire time, but probably in the last two and a half years, I have really felt God's invitation to be more vocal about single life. I do not want to necessarily. I don't want to be the poster child for this, but I do recognize, like I said,

I'm in a very unique seat where pastors trust me and so do singles. And so what a gift that while I'm still not married, that there's a chance I can help them see each other in a really unique way. I mean, there are more singles. Get this, in 1970, In 1970, 23% of the US that was 18 and over was single. In the 2023 census, 46%, doubled. Wow, yeah, doubled. Doubled in 50 years. And so we've got to pay attention. Barna says 25% of our churches are single adults,

never married, divorced or widowed. And so it's just worth paying attention to for our pastors. And I have a lot of sympathy for our pastors, Preston, because they're, you're in my age. Most people leading churches are in their forties or fifties. They went to seminary 25 years ago and they got married 25 years ago. And so they haven't been single in the church in this world.

And they went to seminary at a time that this was not taught to them. And yet the single people in their church are expecting them to minister to them and to understand their seat when they have not been trained in that or had any personal experience. And so I think about this stuff a lot

cause I want to help bridge that gap a little bit since I'm both. If we can linger on singleness, this is a really important topic. You, if I could say, would really love to be married, but you also, you said early on in passing that you're very happy and flourishing in your singleness. Can you unpack that tension?

Because usually people that are so happy being single, they're like, I kind of don't want to be married. Or if they really do want to be married, they're not happy in their singleness. So what's the secret sauce? Yeah, I'm probably less flourishing in singleness and more flourishing in my life. And so I think what I would say back to you is every single person listening

wants something they don't have, right? So what we all get to do is figure out, how do I build a life that is really lovely where my cup is full as Psalm 23 says, my cup runs over. How do I build a life where my cup runs over and I don't have everything I want? That's true for everybody.

And so for me, that's just true. I am working to build a life that I really love and that is the most fun, the most fulfilling, the most interesting, the most challenging that I can. And I wanna be married. I wanna partner. I want someone that we're like running hard together, but anybody could get married at any time

if they wanted to. I could pick somebody and marry him. I'm just not looking to like not live alone anymore. I want to marry someone that we are, I'm going to marry someone that we are like running hard after the same thing, after the gospel being spread, right? And so that just takes a little more time picking wise. I would be interested to hear from your audience if they would say

back to you how many of them are walking through life as a single Christian who is trying to figure out how do I do church and how do I do intimacy, how do I do family, how do I do relationship with God when I've asked him for one thing for the last 20, 30, 50 years and he has not answered. I have a lot of people who are Saint sex attracted and committed to singledness, but that's more like a vocation and given their sexuality. That's right. But when I do speak on this, man, I get a surprising high number of straight people who are also single of marital age. And maybe they're very content. Maybe they want to be married, but man, being single and say over 30 years old

at a church can be a really, really tough spot. You just feel like a second class citizen and yeah. And the pastors are doing the best, genuinely, Preston, I genuinely think there is not a pastor listening or standing up on a Sunday that goes like, I kind of hope singles feel left out at my church. Of course not, of course not. Or like, I hope the divorced people feel left out at my church. Of course not. Of course not.

Or like, I hope the divorced people in our church think I don't care. I mean, of course not. Our pastors want everyone to feel loved and seen and reflect Christ to them. That is what they want. Yeah. A pastor doesn't know every seat in everybody's lives.

They just can't. And so when they're giving examples on stage, in fact, we created, we can send you the link to this, Preston, but we created a free product. I mean, it's just like download it and have it called Pastoring Singles. That is just like a downloadable thing

because it's these questions on your theology of singleness. How are you shaping your sermons? How are you shaping your small groups? Like just have it. And we have had over a thousand people download that thing and just like pass it to their pastors because pastors, when they give examples of Sabbath, this is one that you hear a lot.

They'll go, turn your phones off and just be with the people in your home. Well, I'm an extrovert and I live alone. What world will I feel nearer to God if my phone is off every Saturday, all day long? So when we teach Sabbath, can we teach Sabbath in a way that goes, how do you rest, worship and celebrate

if you live with no one else? And so there's just things like that that our pastors want to include, they don't know to include. And singles, all you have to do is put a single person on stage teaching. Don't even have to teach on singleness. Have them teach on Sabbath or holiness or giving, and you're saying a huge thing to the church that that voice matters, too.

Yeah. I think their singles are unintentionally forgotten about. I think pastors just need maybe a reminder or some help to say, man, you've got a growing population of single people. And if at 40%, I mean, if we don't cultivate a better ecclesiology or theology of singleness, we're going to be irrelevant for a good portion of the population we're trying to reach. So this is such an important conversation. It's so interesting, Preston. It's just, it's interesting to, it's just been such a gift to listen to these pastors.

We've had churches call us back and I mean, we just got on a call last week with a mega church groups leader or the week before Christmas. And she was just like, okay, this isn't working. Help us. And I was like, well, I don't know. I'm one single person. I don't know everything, I've only been me, but what about these ideas and these ideas and churches want to do this well?

I think singles sometimes think churches don't care. And the reality is they want to do this well, they just don't know what to do. And the only feedback they get from singles are when singles are mad. So let's instead schedule a meeting with Katie, the group's director, and let's sit down with her and say, hey, I'm unmarried and I want to be married.

Is there a way that we could get a group going of singles? Is there, you know, there's just, there's a way for singles to get involved when they're not mad that will help. As an extrovert single who desires to be married, There's a way for singles to get involved when they're not mad that will help. As an extrovert single who desires to be married, how do you scratch that itch? I mean, are you just very intentional about having friends and community and pursuing people and stuff?

And do you ever have times when you just feel really, really lonely? So lonely, yes. I'm sorry, I was saying people on singles listening would say, yes, I do too. I mean, yes. I'm sorry, some people on the singles list would say, yes, I do too. I mean, don't you, don't married people get lonely too? Absolutely. Yeah. That's the lie is that you think if you get married

and that solves your loneliness, that is the number one falsehood of marriage. That is not, I don't even think that's why marriage was designed. You do have one, the verse, it's not good for men to be alone, but I think that's, I think Eve represents human community, not simply a married partner, but all throughout scripture, friendship and community is a solution to loneliness, not a married partner.

And in fact, one thing I say, we say a lot to Single Purpose League, I say a lot of my podcast is I have stopped letting loneliness be an alarm and it has started just being a road sign. It is not an alarm anymore. It is not something for me to fix. It's something for me to pay attention to. And so that has eased up everything. When it was an alarm that I had to deal with, that was when things were really bad, right?

But now loneliness is a road sign that I pay attention to. Oh, I should probably slow down. I should probably turn here. I should probably speed up. I need to make an adjustment, but this is not an alarm. So for me as an extrovert, I mean, part one is, I am flagrant about telling people that I wanna meet someone and that I want to be married. Like, I'm not embarrassed about that.

Why would I be? You know, like, and so I go to things where single men are. I go to gatherings. I go when people invite go to things where single men are. I go to gatherings. I go when people invite me to things because I like having friends and I like meeting my friends' friends. And I mean, you and I talked about a mutual friend I have in New York that's a single guy, right?

Like, I mean, I met him by going to a church thing. That for me is the solution is even after COVID, the temptation grew so significantly to stay home and to say no or to back out and to watch shows. And to, you know, and I have had to really, and as an extrovert, I've had to go against my own grain of I'll just stay home and make myself go to more things than I really want to, and I'm always glad I did.

Yeah, yeah. Do you have friends trying to hook you up all the time? And does that get a door? Yeah, no, it's such an honor. Because if you love someone and you think, I love this guy, and I think he and Annie might like each other, that's actually like a huge honor.

When we talk to our singles in Single Purpose League over and over, a thing they wish is their married friends would set them up more. But it's really scary because married friends get worried like what if this guy breaks my friend Annie's heart? And then I'm stuck being friends with both of them. And I've got to hear both sides of this. And what if I'm the one who caused that?

And so it, and a lot of times make people hesitant to set people up. But the reality is, is if you love someone and you love me, give us a shot and trust that we're two grownups who might screw this up, but we might not. And so I love when people think of people to set me up with because it's such an honor that someone they love, they would think we are worthy of each other

and worth meeting. So I love it. I'd be, I'd be worried that I think this person's awesome that someone they love, they would think we are worthy of each other and worth meeting. So I love it. I'd be worried that I think this person's awesome and oh my gosh, Annie would love this person. Then you meet and then you're like, this guy's such a dork. Wait, why'd you take? I mean, the same could be true about a restaurant or a concert or what?

I mean, anytime you recommend something or someone, you're taking the risk. The person you're recommending to doesn't feel the same way you do. I mean, I haven't married anybody my friends set me up with yet, right? Right, okay. But the heart, in fact, I went on one blind date with a guy a few months ago and it did not work, but I sent an email to the girl who set us up and I said,

nice guy, thank you so much. Mostly, thank you for the courage to do this because you made me feel very valued and very cared for. And you went over your own fear and hopes of helping one of something that matters to me come to pass. And it meant a ton to me that she did that. And so I'm always up for being set up if it's someone that I trust set me up. That's cool, yeah, I've never heard it that way.

That makes sense. Let's do a hard right turn. You have a children's book coming out in February, February 17th, is that right? Yeah, February 18th, that's Tuesday. Yeah. Have you written a children's book before? Yes. So this is my third children's book. This one is very different. I mean, this is so funny, Preston, because I literally said to the Lord this morning, how interesting that the two things I'm talking about the most right now

are singleness and my nephew who passed away. Like, these are not two topics that are like the most fun for me, obviously. But in summer of 22, my sister and her husband had a baby named TJ, their second child. And TJ was born, we knew it 12 weeks, TJ was really sick. 12 weeks in the womb that he was really sick and that he would not, he had Trisomy 18,

which is a genetic disorder that's not compatible with life. Your lungs and your heart don't develop fully. Most Trisomy 18 babies don't leave the hospital. They don't live after hours, if you get hours. And so we prayed and asked God for a different story and spent my sister's pregnancy hoping something would be different and that we would have a miracle story.

And we do, but not the one we wanted, of course. And TJ was born and actually ended up living for 56 days, which is far more than we thought we would get. And two weeks before he was born and actually ended up living for 56 days, which is far more than we thought we would get. And two weeks before he was born, my other nephew Sam was about two. And two weeks before TJ was born, I started calling my counselor friends, my pastor friends, and being like,

hey, can you give me a book for us to read to Sam? Like, how do you, in the middle of your own grief as an adult, how do you disciple children through grief of losing a sibling? And we got a couple of recommendations pressed in and just none of them were gospel stories. None of them, some of them would talk about heaven, but none of them were like, hey,

in fact, kind of the through line of the book I wrote is there is good news inside of sad stories. And so I one day I was driving from Franklin, Tennessee to Nashville, which is a full 25 minutes. It was just weeks before I was going back to Atlanta for TJ to be born where we thought he would die at the hospital. And it is like this story downloaded into my head, Preston, and I voice memoed it to myself. And I thought I can can't do very much to help my nephew, Sam, but I can tell him a story. I can tell him a story about who Jesus is

and about what heaven is like and about what happens when there is a sad story in your story. And so I got home and I listened to my voice memo and I typed it up and I sent it to the local FedEx and I put clip art on it and I printed it and I laminated it and we read it to my nephew. And for a while, that was the only purpose of that book

was for my nephew, Sam, to help him process the loss of his little brother. And then I sent it to my agent and I said, hey, this really helped us. And we couldn't find another help. Can we ask the publisher if they would be willing? This is such a niche book that it is a risk for a publisher to put this in a contract and do a book on grief for kids.

Like a book on a death of a baby for children. Like that is so niche. And they said yes. And so that's where did TJ go. And my sister's the co-author. She helped me work on it over the last year to make it so that the mom has a voice. I wanted the mom, I wanted a mom voice in it. My aunt voice is important, but I wanted a mom voice. And what we've seen so far, Preston, is I mean, it broke the top 600 books on Amazon.

It's number one in every kids category right now. I mean, it is. Wow. It's unbelievable. We've had tons of nurses, NICU nurses say, we have families everywhere that need this. And what we keep saying is, we don't want anyone to need this.

We're so sorry we needed it. We're sorry you need it. And we're so honored to serve your family in the middle of this now, because that's what we needed too, Preston, is we needed someone to say, Jesus is in this story, even though you didn't get what you want, right?

We just needed, we needed to say that to Sam about TJ. And so now we, it is not the same as if God would have let TJ live, but it is a way we push back on the darkness that tries to tell us that death has won. And instead we go, oh, that's, that's what you think? You think you won? Look what we're about to do.

We're about to be in a lot of homes helping a lot of families. Apart from kids who have had a sibling die, like in this situation, what other kinds of traumatic situations would this book be helpful for? So in the book, the baby does not come home from the hospital. Okay. And so because that's what we thought was going to happen, so that's how we wrote it. I wrote it for Sam.

And so, we're really hoping that families, that miscarriages, stillbirths, medical decisions, any of that fits here. But we have had so many. I mean, I responded to a DM this morning, president of someone who said, my husband just died, will this help our children? Oh yeah, okay, wow.

And I said, I don't know, I hope so. Because the second half of the book, the first half of the book is the story. I mean, it's a picture book, right? It's 32 pages, but the first half is leading up to the death of TJ and the second half is, so where is he now? And I think any of us, when I think about my grandmothers,

when I think about some friends of mine who died in a car accident when I was 16, when I think about my nephew, looking at what heaven could be like is gonna serve anybody. You know, who Jesus is and the animals and the ability to play. And I think that will serve any family who has lost, who Jesus is and the animals and the ability to play.

And I think that will serve any family who has lost, but it's really interesting because there are families who've reached out already that have said, we lost a baby when my kids were little, and now they're 17 and 18, and we're gonna read this. Because the pain just doesn't go away. It changes and morphs. Of course it does. But the loss of a child through miscarriage or anything,

through any amount of loss of a pregnancy and loss of a child, there's some pretty significant grief and we hope this will partner. And then David Thomas, who I would imagine, you know, from Raising Boys and Girls, he's a really respected family therapist. He wrote a letter in the back of the book and to kind of help parents because these parents are so deep in their own grief, right?

Like how do we help them too? So he wrote her a letter in the back. It was like, hey, as you're processing this, here are some next steps with your kids too. So I was so thankful he was willing to do that. I love that the book arose out of a real life situation that wasn't even intended to go beyond that. You know, it's not like you thought, oh, here's a need that I could sell a lot of books because no one's written. Like it didn't come from a publishing kind of focus,

but from a more intimate relational purpose. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, that was the, I mean, to this day it's dedicated to Sam, because I was like, this was for my nephew. This was to help my nephew deal with the loss of my other nephew. And so if God's choosing to use it in other people's lives,

and I'm so grateful, because I love a redemption story. I love a story where we win. I love a story where the math does not work on what the enemy thought he was gonna get to do. So any family it serves and any hospital it serves, we're thankful, but it was for Sam. That's awesome. Well, Annie Downs, it was wonderful chatting with you. Thanks so much for taking time to come on.

I mean, we covered it all, brother. I mean, we have really done a thing. We have really done a thing. It was great talking with you. And maybe in New York, we might cross paths. Yeah, for sure. let's do it. Thanks friend. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast.

Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day. And together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse.

World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors and all high performers in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance.

So on this season, my good friend, Dr. Daniel Layman, will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas, and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up, the doctor and the nurse on the David Nurse Show, coming at ya.