Theology in the Raw - Behind the Scenes of Christian Publishing: Katelyn Beaty

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Katelyn Beaty is a journalist, editor, and author who’s written for the New York Times, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, Religion News Service, Religion & Politics, and The Atlantic. She is cohost of the Saved by the City podcast (Religion News Service), the author of 2 books including her latest: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church (Brazos Press, 2022), and currently serves as the editorial director of Brazos Press.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Caitlin Beatty, who is a journalist, editor, and author who's written for the New York Times, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, Religious News Service, Religion and Politics, and The Atlantic. She co-hosts the Saved by the City podcast, and she's the author of two books, including her latest book, Celebrities for Jesus, How Personas, Platforms, and Prophets Are Hurting the Church. And she currently serves as the editorial director of Brazos Press. This conversation is all about publishing. So if you are an author, an aspiring author, I think you'll very much benefit from this

conversation. And then at the tail end of the conversation, we do talk about her book, Celebrities for Jesus, which sounds incredibly provocative. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Kaitlin Beatty. All right. Welcome to Theology in the Rock. Kaitlin, how are you doing this morning? I'm good.

Your listeners might hear some residual seasonal allergies in my voice and nose. If anybody out there has them, you know it's a rough time of year, but otherwise I'm good. Well, I mean, we're recording this a couple days after the Exiles Conference ended, and I got a massive sore throat and cold Saturday. And then I preached at the church on Sunday and my voice was like, I could hardly even talk. So I spent most of the day yesterday in bed. So I still have my... Tissues. Yeah, I have my tissues. They're somewhere too.

Okay, good, good. If I have to blow my nose, I'm going to try to do so away from the microphone. So if you see me fall out of the screen, it's because of that. Same. Okay. All right. Are you in New York City? No, I'm in Columbus, Ohio. I grew up in Dayton, Ohio.

I was living in New York until last fall. I'd been there for six years, but wanted to be closer to family and to not spend as much money on rent. I don't know if you've heard that the cost of living in New York is a bit prohibitive for a lot of people. My daughter lives there. I'm going to fly out there in a couple days. Lauren Oh, fun. Pete Yeah, she's in Washington Heights. So, she has got, her rent's a bit cheaper. But yeah, it's insane. Oh my God. But New York's such a fun place, isn't it?

Lauren Yeah, you know, a lot of people say, I love to visit New York. I would never want to live there. visit New York. I would never want to live there. I loved living there. I think in terms of being a person of Christian faith, figuring out how to embody and model Christian faith and pursue discipleship in a place where it's not taken for granted that everyone's more or less a Christian. The majority of my neighbors would be spending Sunday morning at brunch or at the park or whatever. And so it really feels like going to church, participating in small group, it's such a choice. It's such a deliberate practice.

So I'm grateful for that experience. And of course, just, it's a beautiful place, endless restaurants, coffee shops, Broadway shows if you're into that. So yeah, I loved my time there and also I'm glad to not be spending as much money on rent these days. I bet. Why don't you give a, let's give a quick backstory. Who are you?

How did you get into, I mean, you're not just knowledgeable about publishing and writing, but you're an extremely good writer. Like we'd love to know where that came from. And then we'd love to talk about the publishing world these days. Where are we at in 2025 with Christian Publishing? Yeah. Well, I started my career at Christiana View Today magazine.

I ended up there as a copy editor shortly after graduation and would end up being there for almost a decade, just learning everything from the Chicago Manual of Style to these evangelical figureheads of church history. I was growing up in the United Methodist Church, very evangelical seeker sensitive environment. I don't think I knew much of church history before like Billy Graham, maybe John Wesley.

So Christianity today was a deep dive learning experience into the evangelical world in North America and beyond, learning how to write on deadline. It was a fast-paced environment. I was primarily working on the magazine side, but then also publishing for the daily website. So ended up being there for almost a decade, served as the print managing editor,

used to help run a website called Her-menudix, which is like a terrible pun. It was a women's website, her.menudix. Oh, no. RIP, it doesn't exist anymore. And then left in 2016, really just out of a sense of wanting to try my hand at something else. I felt like I had learned a lot, but was ready to move on. 2016 was an interesting

time to be somewhat of a public evangelical figure, speaking into national politics. And then in 2018, I was approached by Baker Publishing Group, which is the largest independent Christian book publisher in North America. They're based in Grand Rapids, but was approached about an acquisitions editor job. And I had not really dreamed of book publishing. I think what I loved about CT was the pace. People are talking about this now. We got to weigh in now. And there's something new happening and we're going to break a story. But book publishing is, I think, a more long-term sustainable life for them. of course, there are deadlines, but they're spaced out. And what

I love about book publishing is the opportunity to curate a conversation for readers. I feel very grateful to be working for a book publisher where I'm working on books that I would naturally want to read if I weren't in book publishing. Brazos Press is a, we call ourselves a thoughtful trade division of Baker Publishing Group. So we're working with authors who go deep into issues of the day, bringing theological guidance, cultural analysis, personal storytelling, but doing it in an accessible way, kind of hitting that the lay reader. At the recent Exiles Conference, three of our authors, Malcolm Foley, Mark Yarhouse, and Caitlin Schaess

are all Brazos authors. I think they all embody the best of what Brazos aims to be. So curating a conversation, I mean, as you know, rates of reading are down because we are all inundated with information on screens and quick dopamine hits and deep reading doesn't usually give you a quick dopamine hit. It requires a kind of sustained attention. But I think reading itself is a core way that we are formed. It's often a way that we are formed spiritually. Most of us can think of a book beyond the Bible that changed our lives, that changed

the direction of our lives, that completely rewired how we thought about something. So we definitely believe in the spiritual value of reading books, and especially in a time when there are conversations inside the industry about the promises and perils of AI. And I'll go on record to say I'm pretty skeptical about AIs, the way it might change book publishing. I think the value of human words, you know, human creativity, words created and penned by humans is priceless and I think will become more so in the years ahead. You'll be, this is so fascinating. I literally just got done recording a dialogical debate

about AI and Christian discipleship. Yeah. Literally just got done, like there was, And they were giving different sides to it. It was fantastic. And the person that was more skeptical of AI, Doug Smith, he brought that exact point. I mean, many points, but one of them was that it will stunt people's cognitive,

exercising their mind through the process of reading. It was a great point. So are people, it seems like it is, but they are reading fewer books? Are books not selling like they used to? Is the industry on a slow dive or not necessarily? Yeah, it's interesting. I would say the industry is increasingly dominated by fewer books that are amazing bestsellers. So there's less space for books from authors with quote unquote smaller platforms or who are not celebrity-driven, personality-driven, it's harder for those books to get attention when Oprah Winfrey is coming out with a new book.

Or I'm trying to think of like the Christian, like Ann Voskamp, you know, somebody who is an immediate bestseller. I think the industry is more dominated by fewer authors and fewer books with huge sales projections and advances. And we can talk about the financial, to an extent, we can talk about the financial and business side of book publishing. But so, you know, at Brazos, of course, when we are thinking about publishing a book, we're looking at, we want our books to sell, right? Like we want people to read our books and find our books and we want our books to be on people's bookshelves in 10 years. And we also want to exist in 10 years.

So it's not overly materialistic or sinful or worldly to want that. And at the same time, we're not going to publish books just because the author has a huge platform, but they may not have that much to say. I don't know if you know this, but sometimes very bad books are published and sell a lot, and very good books are published and don't sell anything. And it's just the reality of the outsized power

of celebrity in book publishing, both in the mainstream world and the Christian world. I'm super curious. Can we linger here for a bit? Because you wrote a book about, in 2022, about celebrity Christians. And I am very well aware, at least I assume,

that every publisher has a few authors that at least contribute significantly to the financial stability of the organization. that every publisher has a few authors that keep, at least contribute significantly to the financial stability of the organization. I get that. And yet I do wonder on the, I mean, you're an extremely thoughtful person. You appreciate a good book,

not just the book that's gonna sell. How do you navigate that tension as much as you can say? I mean, I'm sure there's some things you can't say publicly, but. Yeah, well, I'm generally anti ghost writer. If it's for a person who is being contracted to write a book, but they say, I simply don't have enough time because I'm such a busy, important person. So I'm going to hire this writing assistant to come write my book for me based on my content, maybe, but like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able have enough time because I'm such a busy, important person, so I'm going to hire this writing assistant to come write my book for me based on my content, maybe. But maybe they'll also put some good ideas in the book on my behalf. And so what ends up selling the book is the name on the cover, and that's driven by name recognition and celebrity. But the person who has done the majority of the work to actually craft the book is either unnamed or uncredited and certainly is not compensated to the degree that the celebrity's name is. Whoever's name is on the cover is getting the royalty checks month to month or quarter to quarter. Yeah, I don't think it's wrong to consider platform. If you're an author, a pastor, a teacher, you feel like you have something to share

with a broad audience. You want to edify the church. You're able to reach more people via the written word than you are in an embodied space wherever you are. It's not wrong to think, well, how can I extend my platform? How can I build that so that when I say the thing that I want to say, people can actually hear it, they can actually find it? I think though the metric is often, the apparatus is often reversed so that the platform becomes the point in and of itself.

And people end up feeling like they have to build a platform, but they're not even sure what they want to say or need to say once they're on the platform. And so growing someone's, you know, growing your social media reach, growing your podcast numbers, and I'm not calling, you know, growing your sub-stack numbers, like it all becomes the point in and of itself. And I think that's where we've gone astray a bit is when the platform becomes the point rather than the message that you want to deliver once you're on the platform.

I wanna make sure that regardless of the platform that the author is a good writer, a good thinker has credentials. I think sometimes we in the evangelical world are quick to platform people who are excellent public communicators, great public speakers, like charismatic, attractive, great leaders, charismatic, attractive, great leaders, without assessing some more hidden or quieter, deeper and more important considerations like is this person being held accountable? Are they open to accountability? What is their character like?

I mean, obviously, that's hard to assess from a book proposal, but are they, do the people around them experience them as kind and humble and open? What kind of posture do they have? What is their motive for writing this book? All of those deeper kind of questions of spiritual maturity are often sidelined by the big, powerful, impressive thing that drives celebrity in the church. And I do think that Christian book publishers have contributed to the problem of celebrity in the church. Pete Oh, man. We might linger here for a few hours, Caitlin. How much time do you have? It's got to be hard. And I don't, again, I'm very sensitive to what you can't say publicly or not, but I

would imagine it would be a difficult decision for you to make if you get, say, a proposal from a person who you're like, oh my word, this is easily going to sell 50,000, 100,000 copies. And the content's fine. It's not heresy. But if the person had no platform, you would probably say, no, we're not going to publish this. It is their platform that nudges you into saying, yes,

we'll publish this. It's not bad. It's just kind of like, I probably wouldn't buy the book and read it if I wasn't, you know. Is that attention you have to wrestle with? Definitely. I mean, I'm happy to say on record that our editorial team has declined proposals that

are otherwise very strong, but the author doesn't have a platform. Or if they don't have a platform, maybe they don't have something that we can help to build either. Sometimes there's hints of a platform. There are things that we can work with to develop and build prior to a books release. But if there's nothing, we've certainly declined proposals based on that. And you're right. I'm trying to think of like, who would be the person that we would be like, well, the

writing is not great, but we have to work with this person. Yeah. I want names, Caitlin. I want names. I know. I know. I can't even, I feel like if I throw out a name, it's going to be like, Oh well, bro, that's the, you know, I'm kidding. Please don't throw it out. Yeah, that'd be terrible. But yes, of course they're like, okay. If mr. Rogers was still alive and mr. Rogers had written

his like final, you know, this is going to be like his last book of his career. And it was agented and the agent was driving an auction for it. And we knew this was going to be a six figure deal at least. We would definitely go for the Mr. Rogers book because it's Mr. Rogers, right? I just picked the absolute safest person I could think of. It's definitely a balance. I do think, again, going back to the kind of business industry side of the equation, sometimes you spend a lot of money on a book that doesn't land, it doesn't sell,

and you don't always have a clear reason why it didn't connect. It just, a lot of this is timing, you know? Like I think about people who published books the week of September 11th. Unless it was about Middle Eastern foreign policy, there are certain intangible factors that you can't control for when you're contracting a book. Every book contract is a gamble. Every book contract is a risk

because you just don't know what the world is gonna be like in 18 to 24 months. Yeah. My publishers get frustrated at me because I just, not only do I truly despise self-promotion, but I'm just not good at it. I don't care about it. It doesn't like, growing my social media platforms, I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter.

I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter.

I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter.

I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not a fan of Twitter. I'm not. And even the publisher I'm working with now,

he's always like, Thel Preston, I know you don't like to do, is there, you know, but could you send an email? Could you? It's just so hard. It's like, I just don't, not just the sleaziness of it, but I just, I have other things I want to do with my time, but that is, that's such a hard tension.

I mean, how much should a Christian writer self-promote? And what does that look like? What are some ethically, ethical ways in which they can go about that where it's not sleazy, you know? Sure. Yeah, I think self-promotion, if you reframe it to be less about, I am literally promoting myself, like as a persona, as a figure. And think about it more as I just spent a year or two working on this book that I really want people to read, not primarily because I want to sell a ton of books, but because

I've written something, I've tried to write something that is going to help people, that's going to edify the church, that is going to improve the conversations we're having about hard things at the intersection of faith and culture. And so, I'm proud of my work. I want people to know about the work so that it can help them, so that it can start the conversations I want to see know about the work so that it can help them, so that it can start the conversations I want to see started in the church. I really struggled with self-promotion, publishing celebrities for Jesus, because I was like, wait, how do I do this for a book that includes a chapter, basically taking Christian book

publishers and writers to task for being so self-promotional. It's tricky, but keeping that kind of first things first motive, I want people to find the book. Most people are going to find it because they're scrolling on social media. They're going to find out about it there or they're going to find out about it on a podcast, so I need to show up for these podcasts, I need to record these podcasts. I feel like I keep saying the same thing 50 times,

but I want to do the work so that people find the book. I think that's a way for it to feel less sleazy. I mean, obviously, when you get into paid advertising and the algorithms, that's typically more on the publisher's side than the author's side. I think it's good to know if you're working with a book publisher what their ethical guidelines are for that.

But yeah, thinking about self-promotion less as about the self and more about the thing you've created for other people. I think that can help. That's good. That's good. I do keep that in mind. Like, yeah, I pour my heart and soul into something and I wouldn't have written it if

I don't think it's true and good and beautiful and helpful for people. So that's at the end of the day, any kind of like promoting of the book I write. Hopefully, I try to make that my motivation. or promoting of the book I write, hopefully. I try to make that my motivation. You know? Are you a recent college graduate or in between jobs? Or maybe you're just looking for a spiritually meaningful cross-cultural experience. If this is you, then you need to check out

the Global Ambassador Program with ELIC, the English Language Institute in China. Okay, so it's not just in China anymore, they actually work in several different countries. The Global Ambassador Program, or GAP, is a personal and professional development program where you will be immersed in the cultures of Thailand, Tunisia, or Uzbekistan for nine months.

You'll take language classes, you'll grow in your faith, and you'll teach English to the local community alongside a team of other Christian young professionals. ELIC still has a few remaining spots for this year's cohort. In fact, one of our listeners named Zoe heard about ELIC on Theology in Iran, committed to the Tunisia program. Like Zoe, you could be on a plane to Tunisia or Thailand or Uzbekistan this August impacting lives and reaching your fullest potential. Learn more about GAP and take the next step. Go to ELIC.org forward slash TITR.

That's ELIC.org forward slash TITR. Who should write a book and who shouldn't write a book? I feel like, especially in the church world, it seems like most, and this is a neutral statement, it's not necessarily negative or positive, although it could be one or the other. It seems like most pastors that have a, say they have a successful ministry, they're growing, there are a lot of people coming, you know, they planted a church, they have 200 people coming, they have 500, they have a thousand people. They planted a church, they have 200 people come in, they have 500, they have a thousand people. In many cases, I feel like they're like, I need to write a book, you know?

Or a publisher is approaching them saying, you need to write a book. And that's hard to do. They're like, really? Oh my gosh, they want me to write a book. And like, okay, I'm going to write. But it seems like the Christian world is one of the only spaces where people who are natural writers enter a field of writing. I mean, just because you're an amazing speaker

or a pastor of a platform doesn't necessarily mean, I mean, writing is like, it's an art. It's like, just because you wouldn't like paint a mural or, you know, or create a song or do another form of art just because you have a lot of followers. What, you know, I guess, yeah, what am I saying? Yeah, who should write a book and who shouldn't write a book? Yeah. It's hard for me to lay down a blanket rule of like no young person should write

a book because like Anne Frank, it was fine for her to keep a diary. That's a very, perhaps off-color young person to think of in this moment. I do think that when we're talking about pastors and people in church leadership, there's something about seeing that that person has cultivated the spiritual maturity and wisdom that is needed in order to share something of lasting value with the broader Christian world. And I don't, you know, I can't put like, you have to be at least 40, you have to be at least 50. But I do look at books from like Upstart Church Planters, I'm like, you haven't lived enough life yet to know what of wisdom, to have enough wisdom to share to warrant publishing a book. And I do hold Christian book publishers

in part responsible for that dynamic because we see the person who all of a sudden, they're speaking at all the conferences and while their church is growing by leaps and bounds and they're in the news and they're getting all this attention and of course, it's natural to think, well, gosh, should they write a book? But in a lot of cases, it's just too, it's premature. And unfortunately, we have seen stories of pastors who have been platformed too early and then they crash and burn with some kind of moral failing or scandal. And one from a publisher perspective, that's a

headache you do not want to deal with. That is a liability and a headache you don't want to have to deal with. It's inevitable in some cases just because people are humans and you can't possibly know a person's heart before publishing their book and you don't know what their future holds. But in general, like more vetting, I think is more vetting and more patience. And I, again, I don't think book publishers are always very good at that. And I think if you are this upstart pastor and you're getting a lot of attention and somebody offers you a book deal,

that'd be really hard to say no to. Yeah, totally. But then having the maturity to sit back and say, like, yes, but not for another five years. You know, like in the grand scheme of things, in the grand scheme of eternity, what is lost if I wait to have a little bit more under my belt before saying yes to this opportunity,

because I don't want to mess it. I don't wanna waste it. I don't want to pursue it for selfish gain. Yeah. Before I even think about proposing a book, I always ask myself three questions. Number one, does this book need to be written? Or has it to be written?

Or has it already been written? Is there another book out there that's basically said, you know, filled the gap that I'm trying to fill? Number two, am I the best person to write the book? Do I have the theological credentials, the experience? Like, why should I write the book? And number three, am I passionate about the topic? You know, there could be another topic that needs to be written, the book needs to

be written, but I'm just not thrilled about that topic, then I wouldn't write it. Are those valid questions? And are there other questions that you would recommend people considering writing that they should ask themselves? Yeah, I think that's really good. I think on that third question, am I passionate about this? Like, keep in mind, you're going to be talking about this and thinking about it for at least two to three years. So like, you really have to care enough

about something because most of us, like that could be an interesting topic. I could write that book, but do I really want to be thinking about it and talking about it in three years? So you have to really care about it enough to invest that much time and mental and emotional energy. I do think that it is a valuable question to ask, have I gone through something in terms of suffering where I can really help people who are suffering in a similar way. I think a lot of the books that end up standing the test of time arise from horrific personal experiences walking through the valley of darkness,

coming out on the other side and realizing, if anything, I now have this understanding of suffering and I have compassion for people who are going through something similar. A book is a way to minister to people who are suffering, so many more people than you could face to face. And I think thinking about our own lives and what God leads us through in His sovereignty and what of this could perhaps minister to other people. That's good.

It's valuable. What do you love most about your job or what do you hate most about or dislike most about your job? I think it's really fun to curate a conversation for readers. to curate a conversation for readers. It's akin to magazine publishing. You'd have an issue, you have 64 pages to fill. What are the topics? Who are the people who our readers need to hear from? I think it's a form of indirect leadership. Obviously, our authors are the ones doing the forefront work, but kind of creating a space at a table, you know, inviting people to come to this table and have this conversation about something that I think is really important or valuable. That's really fun. Least fun, I often find that the author-editor relationship can turn into therapy.

Oh, really? Because the author, you know, a lot of authors feel anxious about what they're writing. They start writing and they start to feel insecure about the book. Like, do I really have enough to say? Do I have the credibility to say this? What if I get blowback? Like, what if this ends up being controversial? And so sometimes my job as the editor is to encourage. And, you know, I'm an introvert. I love working quietly at my desk every day. I don't have the natural therapeutic skills to meet people where they are, but sometimes

I do have to do that. And I sometimes find that emotionally exhausting. Give us a perspective of how many proposals do you have to work through versus how many you actually accept? Is it two to one, 10 to one, 100 to one? I would love people to have an idea of the books that come out. There was a lot more options that came in. Yeah. I'm going to do a quick calculation.

I think we probably get about five proposals a week. So over the course of the year, let's say that's 250. I didn't pull that out of nowhere. I just did that calculation. Like 50 weeks and then five a week. Out of that, I would say maybe one out of every five proposals comes to our editorial team for discussion. And then from that, I don't know. I mean, Brazos publishes 25 books a year. Oh, that's it. Oh, wow.

So I guess that would be 1%. That sounds so much more. Now some of that is we are, some of the books that we look at, some of the proposals we look at, we really want to publish that book and the person ends up going to another publisher. A lot of the job is up front is competing with other publishers to acquire a book or an author. So many more than 1% actually get approved at Pub Board and we end up making an offer on. But yeah, I would say we get a lot of proposals from agents who are probably sending a proposal out to every single contact in the Christian publishing world. And it's just very clearly like, this is just not for us.

We don't publish fiction, but you just sent me an Amish romance novel. This isn't going to work. You get a lot and then you filter it down. And then, you know, we are also pursuing authors. So authors and agents are pursuing us but we are also cultivating relationships and conversations with authors, hoping that they will submit a proposal to us because we really want to work with them. So it's like we are being chased and then we are chasing. That kind of dynamic.

What are the theological parameters at Brazos? That's public, right? You're allowed to talk about that. Like, there's some that are like, ah, this is a good book. Maybe it even needs to be out there, but we just, we couldn't publish it. Yeah. I would say the theological boundaries for Brazos are Nicene Christianity. So, creedal Christianity, but we work with Christians from across the denominational spectrum. You know, we have published mainline Protestants, Catholics. I'm sure we've published a couple Eastern Orthodox people over the years. Most of the authors we're working with are broadly in the American evangelical space, but some of them are post evangelical,

wanting to serve a kind of broader spiritually curious audience. But I think if there is a touch point in the book to Nicene Christianity, then we feel comfortable with that. I think this is probably a cliche, but as a book publisher, we don't feel like our primary job is to tell readers what to think. We want to help them think better and more deeply. And so we work with authors whom we trust, who we think are going to be able to serve our readers in that way. But we are not as denominationally or

kind of... There are other Christian publishers who are more tightly or narrowly bound by a specific tradition or a specific tribe in the church, and we're pretty broad by comparison. I appreciate the nice scene, but let's be honest, I mean, almost all disputes within evangelicalism are outside of that. I mean, for instance, like, I mean, would you publish a book on, let's like, affirmative same-sex marriage or is pro-Palestinian or for abortion or proposing a different view of hell, universalism or annihilation or something like that. Are there those kind of unwritten codes of what is evangelical or not? Are those written down or do you just kind of weigh it? We don't have a list of hot button topics that we have.

That's an interesting question. A lot of this comes down to the editorial discernment of our editorial team. And I think, and I'm not saying this to try to dodge your question because it's a good one. I do think a lot of this comes down to tone and approach. So we have not published the book from Brazos Press that is making the case for same-sex relationships. We have published authors who are personally affirming. I think, again, at Brazos, you're right. Nicean Christianity, very broad, certainly broader than

American evangelicalism. I think as long as authors are engaging responsibly with the Christian tradition, with the biblical text, they are coming to their argument in good faith. We have room for that. But no, we don't have a list of like, yes to these topics, no to these topics. I think it really comes down to the author's tone and approach. And again, also their credibility. We're not just going gonna publish like some random guy on the internet spouting off his opinion on anything, right? Like we wanna see that the person has done the work and is kind of an established authority in their field

to weigh in on topics that are significant and that deserve careful treatment. to weigh in on topics that are significant and That deserve careful treatment do you ever get heat a Lot of blowback for publishing something that maybe your editorial team is like, hey, we we we can get behind this But man that their constituents did not agree with that decision and how do you handle that? I don't know. I'm sure someone on the internet, I'm thinking specifically of X slash Twitter, which the discourse on,

I'm like an old school Twitter fan, like back in the day, I used to think it was really fun. It is no longer fun. I know that Brazos has been tagged before by people who are upset, not usually by a specific book. It's not even, oftentimes it's not even a book that's even out yet. It's an author whose tweet they disagree with. And so that person will say like, I can't believe Brazos is publishing this person because they said this. But obviously, we're only going to respond to people who are actually engaging the books.

I know that there are, I think the authors we do work with are the ones who are okay existing in that broad space. I know that there are authors who would feel uncomfortable with that because associationally it's like, could I be on a list with so and so? And that goes both, like in both ideological directions. Progressive people who would not want to publish with Brazos because we also publish X. So it is, it can, you know, occasionally there is blowback, but it seems more directed at specific authors rather than Brazos Press as a program.

Okay, that's good. I feel bad for the publishers I've worked with, so I feel like most books I write, they tend to get blowback from somebody somewhere. I mean, but I would say it's usually from... It's usually from people or a version of evangelicalism that the publisher itself isn't really focused on. It'll be the far right, far left or something. But I feel bad. I'm also like, are you sure you

want to publish this? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mentioned earlier, every book is a financial risk. It's also an associational risk. So that's why those sometimes hard but necessary conversations internally are really important. Like reputationally, what does this author and book bring to our program? And in the end, do we see this as a net gain reputationally? Yeah, that's good.

I wonder if editors have a hard time being neutral. Say for instance, you have an acquisitions editor that's really strongly egalitarian. And they get a proposal from a very thoughtful, exegetically responsible, strong, complimentarian position. Like would that be? I think the answer is gonna be yes,

but is that attention that your editors or even you as managing editor have to rest with? You could say, I fundamentally don't agree with this conclusion, and I'm passionate about the other conclusion, but hey, we're a publisher, we're not a church, we should produce good stuff out there, even if I disagree with it. Yeah, well, I don't really have any strong opinion.

I think this would never be a problem for me. No, that's a really good question. I mean, it's undeniable that the books that I acquire, there's something about them that intrigue me or I connect with. But absolutely, the job of an acquisitions editor is not to publish only books that you agree with. That's why having an editorial team composed of people with different perspec- who can

see things that you can't, like I feel really strongly about the topic of this book, but we shouldn't just publish it because I feel strongly about it because what if it's poorly written or poorly argued or what if the author is being uncharitable? I need other people on the team who can see blind spots, who can say, I see why you like this, but actually I have these concerns. Or yes, by contrast, maybe a particular topic or approach is not my cup of tea. I don't resonate with it personally, but wow, the writing is really good. It's making me think more deeply about something I haven't

considered. The author is marshaling the best, either theological or some kind of evidence for their perspective. I want books that are stretching whether or not I end up agreeing with everything that the author says. I think that's really important to have in an editor, a kind of breadth, a charity toward different perspectives. And that's something that I think I've grown in, I've had to grow in. I think I'm less interested these days in only publishing books that I agree with and more in,

well, what's the best version of this particular viewpoint? We wanna publish those books. I love that. Like does it contribute to the conversation, even if you disagree with the ultimate conclusion, that's good. Do you feel like other publishers have the same perspective or?

Well, you don't need to answer that. That's not fair. I mean, I don't think that there's really, I don't think there are any editors out there who are neutral. Like, because we are people who have a specific view of the world. And if you're in Christian book publishing, chances are you're in it because you have a very specific vision of, you have a kind of missional sense of your work.

And so I'm not saying this to pick on. I'm thinking of Crossway just because I think they have a pretty clear, you know, theologically defined tribe that they are serving. It's a wing of the church. It's not as broad an audience as Brazos or many other Christian book publishers would be serving. I think the editorial conversation for them is probably a little bit different. I think it might be like, do the editors agree in general with this author? And I think there's room for that kind of book publishing. You know, I think actually Crossway does a fantastic job of fulfilling that kind of sense of book publishing. It's just a matter of figuring out your purpose for existing. I think we need book publishers that are serving a specific wing of the church very clearly and

focusing on them. Then we need book publishers that are serving a wide breadth of the church and helping people to think deeply and better about various issues. Like, I'm going to assume Crossway is not going to publish a robust book arguing for egalitarianism. But I think, but that's, that vision is clearly stated. I think as long as you have a vision and you stick to it, then that's good. But if you had a broader vision and you only published egalitarian books,

even though that's not part of your stated vision, then I think that would be a little problematic. Yeah. Is there a complementarian writer who you think Brazos should publish? Oh, that's a good question. Like, because honestly, like, I haven't gotten that kind of proposal, and maybe it's because it looks

like Brazos only publishes egalitarians, right? But I think we would be open to Consider I don't mean to put you on the spot. I'm no I'm this the other raw speak out loud in my opinion And it's only my opinion many not all many

Complementarian people who like scholars who would write from a complementary viewpoint what might have a tone or a way of going about it that you might find more problematic. But I read plenty of egalitarianism. I think the tone is very abrasive and more activist than exegetical. So it goes on both sides. I just think it seems to be a little bit more on the commentary. But I could think of, I'll just name some. I mean, Gary Brashears, Patrick Shriner, Brandon Smith.

I'm not sure if they're wanting to write a book on commentarianism. Probably not, but those are authors. They are way more nuanced and sophisticated. Their tone is good. They're gonna be exegetically very thorough. Yeah. Yeah, and I should say we have published books

by complementarians. They may be writing about something else. You mentioned Patrick Schreiner. He's a Baker Academic author. If he felt like I really want to publish more in the trade space, we would definitely be open to that, including if he wants to talk about gender roles in the church. I think you're right though, it's a matter of how you go about it. But yeah, we have published

both complementarians and egalitarian. This episode is brought to you by Beeson Divinity School, an evangelical seminary at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Beeson offers a robust master of divinity, forming students in person in a community-oriented model of theological education. I know several faculty members at Beeson and can easily testify to their priority for theological integrity, intellectual honesty, and their passion for the church. Now, thanks to a generous gift,

Beeson is offering new full tuition scholarships for the 2025 to 2026 academic year, making its flagship degree more affordable than ever. Okay, so these are full tuition scholarships covering the costs of tuition and fees for three years. This is the average time it takes to finish the Master of Divinity. These scholarships won't last long. So if you want to further your theological heart and mind, I highly, highly encourage you to apply at BeesonDivinity.com. Okay? That's BeesonDivinity.com. Check out the link in the show notes.

What makes for a good proposal? If somebody's listening, I know there's people listening, they're like, I do want to write a book. I just want to like build a platform. I actually have something I feel like I want to say. I have the experience or credentials to say it. What are some key things you're looking for in a good proposal? I mean, this is going to sound so obvious, but a table of contents and a chapter outline. We have to be able to see that you haven't just considered a good topic or a good two-sentence summary of the book, but how is this all going to fit together? I think that's one of the most challenging aspects of writing a book is figuring out how to structure a whole book from beginning to end in a way that is cohesive and flows from one section to another.

You're basically building an argument over 50,000 words and that's hard to do. Seeing that an author has thought deeply enough about the actual book content is very helpful. I think, you know, of course, many authors will include like social media numbers or like, you know, our church has this many members or I've spoken to this many people at conferences over the last year. And that's, that is helpful. I mean, it is helpful to know what someone's reach could be. I think maybe describing who your audience is, really zeroing in less on numbers and who is the person you have in mind when you're writing this book. Who is your core audience?

And then how do you connect with that audience? How do you actually convey your message to them is helpful. Often a felt need. There's one particular agency that we get proposals from a lot, and they have their authors say, after people read this book, they will think differently in this way, feel differently in this way, and act differently in this way. So really getting at the effects of the book,

what do you want to have happen for your readers when they engage your book? And then information, who are people in your network who also have some kind of authority or reach in and of themselves who can really vouch for your book when it comes out? Like, I can count on this person to write an endorsement. I can count on this person to have me on their podcast or invite me to their conference. I realize that that aspect of a book proposal can feel icky or like transactional. Like, here are all the most famous people I know.

I mean, that's basically what it comes down to a lot of the time. But that is helpful. It is helpful for our team from a marketing and publicity perspective to know that other public-facing people will vouch for your work and for this book before and after publication. On that note, yeah, that's fair. And this is the tension between the business side and the, for lack of a better term, spiritual side, whatever, like the business side, your company has to sell books for it to survive. So you have to ask that question, how confident

are we that this book is going to sell X number of copies? And that depends partly on the platform, right? I mean, or if it's just an amazing idea, you get the proposal, you're like, my word, this book is extremely thoughtful. It's filling a void that needs to be filled. They don't have much of a platform, but I guess this is a quite, I'm trying to frame it as a question like, but we can help with publicity, because we feel confident that if we can get this in the hands of some people, you know, they're going

to be blown away and tell other people about it, there's going to be a predictive like grassroots kind of momentum that can be built off of this because the idea is so good. Is that Yeah, I think in fact, that usually makes for better book publishing over the long haul than the books where you may have like a ton of famous friends who have said like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll tweet about your book when it comes out or like I'll share it with my followers or whatever. But I think on the consumer end, especially if you're paying attention to trends within book publishing, Christian book publishing, you

kind of start to see like the same people promote the same people and the same people tweet. There's something that feels a little rote or predictable about how book promotion works. Oftentimes, some of the books that have sold the best from our end are truly books that the author had little platform, we paid very little for the book, we had very modest expectations, and the book spread by word of mouth. People started reading it and were blown away by it and they started passing it along. And we talk about books that backlist well,

which is basically just, you know, books that continue to sell year after year through no further marketing or publicity effort on our end or even the author's end. And those are the kinds of books we want to publish because those are the books that are standing the test of time and they're doing so because the content is so good and meaningful to people

that they're wanting to share it naturally with other people in their lives. Is it too cynical? I've told people this, like new authors that send me some thoughts, hey, I want to write a book. Here's my proposal. And I have said, and Caitlin, I apologize if this is inaccurate. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that.

I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I think it's a great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, publishing stool with three legs. And, you know, one is the writing itself. One is author platform and one is timeliness of the topic. And so you can publish a book that has two

of the three legs of the stool sometimes, you know, three is obviously the ideal. But like, if you only have one of the stools, it's going to be really hard. And unfortunately, I do think that platform is one of the stools, like one of the legs that you have. I'm bungling the metaphor, but you get it. I do think platform is probably an essential leg. We have definitely, unfortunately, I mean, there have been proposals where I've thought like, this is such a good book. This is so thoughtful.

This is so deep. I'd love to read this. But literally no one knows who the author is. And we can't change that as the publisher. And we have to decline those books. And so I think your advice to authors or author hopefuls makes a lot of sense. But I don't like that that is, you know,

like in an ideal world, I think it would be different. But those are the market and consumer realities that we contend with. Somebody explained to me a while back, and I don't know if this is just in my memory. I don't know how it got here, but like, that there's kind of almost like three tiers of authors. There's your top tier that they could write, you know,

a blank page and it's gonna sell. Like it's just, they're super well known. So you have your top tier authors. You probably only have a few in that category. Then you have mid-level authors, you know. You know, they've written before. Then nothing's really taken off, but no, but they've written before. They're gonna sell taken off, but no, but they've written before,

they're gonna sell a few thousand at least, no matter what. And then you have a lower category of like brand new authors, they're largely unknown or they haven't written before. Is that, first of all, is that an accurate breakdown? And do you have like a quota from each tier that you're like, you know, that you try to fill or? Yeah, well, we don't call our authors low,

any of our authors low level authors. Okay. I don't know, like, like, Well, just, just, just something you get a, you're the roll of dice. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so like my, my boss is, who, whose wisdom and perspective I trust implicitly,

he talks, he uses a sports metaphor, which we've joked like, I don't always follow those. Help me understand the sports metaphor. We talk about like building a roster, building a team. You're not going to, not every member of the team is going to be a top level performer or player. And actually the mid level, like most of the players are probably going to be in that mid-level range. Right. But you also do want to take a chance on the modest first-time players,

because sometimes they turn out to be an essential part of the team. Like, they end up doing something or performing something for the team that you couldn't have predicted. And sometimes the top level performers are divas and they end up requiring a lot more from your team beyond from your editorial team, beyond just like the money that you put down for having them.

It's that they have very high demands or they have an agent who is unpleasant to work with or requires an incredible investment emotionally and mentally on your team that then takes away time and attention from the other players. It's not always like that, but that is a risk that you run. But I think the diversification of the team makes, I think that general approach makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Do you mainly work with agents?

Like do you accept proposals from authors without agents or do you recommend authors to find an agent before they publish? Yeah, I would say probably two thirds of our authors agented, and a third are unagented. And we're definitely open to working with both. I don't think that anybody necessarily, it's not like you have to have an agent in order to submit to Brazos. I do think agents can be really helpful for first-time authors

in navigating the publishing landscape, like knowing who to send the proposal to, how to weigh different offers against each other, understanding how each publisher is slightly different in their flavor and their intended audience. You know, negotiation. If you're a first-time author, it can be hard to know, like, is the advance that I'm being offered fair?

I don't know. Like, and I don't feel like I have much leveraging power, but an agent can navigate conversations about money that I think a lot of us would feel uncomfortable having directly. So I think agents can be great in that regard. For authors, the agents that we want to work with are those that really see publisher-author interaction as a relationship and not as a partnership and not just as a... I don't know, I think agents probably because some of them have been burned feel like we can't trust the publisher until they prove that they're on our side. Maybe like assume the

worst about what we're intending to do and feel like they kind of have to go into attack dog mode to make sure that their authors are being fairly treated. And, you know, we want to work with agents who implicitly trust us and want to create a positive partnership and know that we want that as well, rather than something more adversarial. I've been blessed with two awesome, awesome agents, super Christ-centered, just godly people. I no longer, I don't have an agent anymore, but when I have worked with an agent, it was a good process. But I have heard the agents can sometimes be difficult.

In particular, an agent is financially incentivized to squeeze as much money out of the contract that maybe the publisher is comfortable with. Again, the two I've worked with have not been that at all. But is that a pretty common thing and that's got to be a little difficult or I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how common it is. I would say it doesn't, it's not common for the agents that we're working with, maybe because of the nature of Brazos. Because we are typically not going after like the big name celebrity folks. I'll just say, you know, different agents have different reputations or they get different reputations.

And so, yes, when I, there are certain agents where I'm like, if I receive a proposal from them, I'm so excited. Like, I'd love to work with them again. I trust their instincts. I know that they get what we're doing. I know they want to create a partnership. And then there are agents that I don't feel that way when I get a proposal from them. That's funny. Okay. Length of the book. It seems that Christian publishers are really nervous about publishing longer books, books that are more in depth, more, you know, I would say thoughtful. And I guess it's frustrating because when I look out on like New York Times bestseller list or secular books that have sold great, some of those are 400 page books that are

heavily researched. I'm just off the top of my head. Something like Jonathan Haidt, you know, the anxious generation, number one New York Times bestseller. It's a pretty thick book. It's from a scholar. It's very heavily footnoted or endnoted. The body keeps the score. That's not an easy bedtime read. And yet that is sold, I don't know how many millions of copies, but when it comes to the Christian publishing, I feel like anything over 60,000 words, 70,000 words, if it

starts getting over near or over 300 pages, they're like, oh, I don't know, Christians aren't gonna read this. Is that, that's just frustrating. I'm like, wait, why do Christians not read longer, thoughtful, well-researched books, but non-Christians do? Is that a correct perception? Am I off on that or?

Like if I sent you a 100,000 word proposal that you said, this is a very thoughtful book. It checks off all the boxes. Like would you balk at, well, it's a hundred thousand words though. Like you specifically or sure. Sure. Why not? Why not?

No, I, I mean, I do, I do tend to think most of us are not Jonathan Haidt or Bessel van der Kolk. So, and most of us think that we have a lot more to say than we probably do. Personally, as an author, I may think I can write a hundred thousand word book and then I think about the amount of work that is. I don't want to sign up for something and then feel like I don't actually have enough to say, substance to say. It could be more concise. It'd be better book if it was more concise and it would actually...

I mean, I'm biased because I'm an editor, but yes, most books could be more concise. And actually, both of the books you just mentioned, as an editor, I'm reading them and thinking, did this person not have an editor? Like, this could have been said in a more concise, clear, accessible way. I don't think there's necessarily, from Brazos' perspective, there's not a default, we will not publish a book over this many words. We have published, in my time at Brazos, we have published a couple books

that are around the 80,000 word mark. That's definitely long, but not unthinkable. So I think as long as our team feels like the word count is justified, we're open to it. I don't know if it's because Christians in particular are not willing to read long books. I just think the demands on people's time and attention are so great that I think a lot of us look at 100,000 word book and think, who has time for that? And the only reason that a lot of us read books like The Anxious Generation or The Body Keeps the Scores because, okay, it's a New York Times bestseller and I've been hearing about it from all my friends and peers for the last

year. I guess I should read it. Yeah. I mean, both those, I guess I should read it. So. Yeah, I mean, both those, I don't know about Besselvend or Kolk, but I know Jonathan Haidt, he's already built Momentum, he's well known. So his name recognition is probably gonna play a big role and no matter what he writes,

it's gonna sell decently at the very least. And Besselvend or Kolk, the body keeps the score, that's a very unique, like that's just like a game changer of a book. So there is something there that I would say would compensate maybe for the length or the density of it. Yeah, definitely.

Okay, final piece of advice, a final word, final piece of advice for aspiring authors. Somebody's out there, aspiring author, what's your piece of advice or pieces of advice for that person? Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe asking if other people in your life are excited for you to write this book. Like, are you thinking of your writing work or the call to write a book as something solitary or like just between you and God or just between you and your agent? Or are you actually thinking of it as unfolding in a community?

And is there a community around you that can vouch for your ability and readiness to write the book? Like the three questions that you ask yourself that you mentioned before, like can other people also answer those affirmatively in your life? Not you specifically, but for anybody listening. Yeah, I just think it's, you know, I say this as somebody who, you know, like writes on Substack when she can and I don't run it by anybody beforehand. It's just like my thoughts and they go out there.

I hope some people find it interesting and helpful. I haven't practiced what I'm preaching right now, but I think it's for any of us, undertaking a creative endeavor that has the potential to malform us spiritually, like writing in an era of outrage or writing in a time when some people can make a lot of money publishing not great books, keeping ourselves accountable, being willing to do that. So that the creative endeavors we undertake are pleasing to God and truly beneficial to others and are bearing good fruit because they come out of the right motives. Sorry, one final thing. Can you give us a quick plug for your recent book, Celebrities? Is it Celebrities for Jesus? Is that the exact title? Yeah, Celebrities for Jesus, How Personas, Platforms, and Prophets are Hurting the Church.

You know, the thesis is pretty much in the subtitle. But I look at the role that celebrity plays in the modern evangelical movement and why celebrity is particularly tempting for modern evangelicals, given how we think about spiritual authority and the primacy we place on verbal communication, oratory skills, growth. If things are growing, they're good. I talk about evangelical history, the role of evangelists like Billy Graham and how they really wielded mass media to reach many more people with the gospel than they could have otherwise, but also introduce some temptations of celebrity into the modern evangelical movement. I, of course, give an overview of recent scandals

involving evangelical celebrities. I talk about the Christian book publishing industry. And then I end the book with a call to ordinary faithfulness for all of us and a willingness to live a life of obscurity and doing so for God's pleasure. So, that's my little altar call. Awesome. Sweet. Kayla, thank you so much for being on Theology of the Rock. I really enjoyed the conversation. I'm sure it's helpful for many people. Thanks for being a guest on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.