Theology in the Raw - Bonus Q&A: Is the Upside Down Kingdom Bible Woke?

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

If you would like to support Theology in the Raw, please visit patreon.com/theologyintheraw for more information! 0:00 Introduction 0:41 Will you respond to any critiques of "the Upside Down Kingdom Study Bible?" Is it "woke?" 5:49 How do you explain the difference between sexual attraction and sinful sexual lust? 9:35 Is the Kingdom a meritocracy? The gate is grace, but what about rewards and placement--based on works? 20:23 Is there any topic you find uninteresting or would prefer not to discuss? 26:45 My young adult trans kid is mentally and emotionally healthier after transition. I feel guilty that I like them better, but they need Jesus. Thoughts? 30:21 What are some things happening on the political right that you've aligned with? 45:15 How do you choose which Christian charities to support? 47:13 Do you love Satan? We're supposed to love our enemies! (from a 7-year old) 48:33 What do you think of the statement, "Hell was made for Satan and his demons, not for people?" 49:35 How can we inherit a sin nature if God knit us together in the womb? Isn't he creating sin then? 50:39 Do you think there are gender distinctives that men must embrace, like growing beards?  53:47 The Greek word for submit in Eph 5:24--is it a "command" or is it a "suggestion?" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What's the difference between sexual attraction and sexual lust? Is our placement in the kingdom based on works? What are things happening on the political right that I align with? And for young adult trans kids, emotionally and mentally healthier after they transition, how should we think through that? These are just some of the questions I'm going to address on this Q&A bonus episode for Theology in the Raw. If you would like to become a member of the Theology in the Raw. If you would like to become a member of the Theology in the Raw community, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. And you can participate in these Q&A sessions

by asking questions among many other perks that you get for being a member. Also, the Exiles of Babylon conference is right around the corner, April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. If you'd like to attend, there are still seats open. theologyintheraw.com, all the information is there. You can also live stream the conference

if you can't make it out to Minneapolis. All right, let's dive into some of these questions. So Josh H. wants to know, do I have any plans to respond to So, Josh H. wants to know, do I have any plans to respond to critiques of the Upside Down Kingdom Study Bible? Josh says, I was one of the giveaway winners, and he loves the Bible. I love the Bible, but some call it woke, LLL. I love the LLL at the end. Oh, man, I have so many thoughts on this. The short answer is, as of now, I don't have

any plans to respond to the accusation that the Bible is woke. Honestly, when I signed the contract for this study Bible, when we brainstorm what it would be like, some values that it would reflect, I knew right away. In fact, I think I even told the publisher, I said, you know, there's the people are gonna like accuse this Bible being woke, right? Like, there's gonna get that kind of criticism from certain kinds of people. And so are you, you know, you okay with that?

And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, no problem. So, yeah, I mean, it was just a matter of time. In fact, the Bible was published last fall, fall 2024. And it took like four or five months for the whole, that's woke, you know, criticism to come up. So it was actually a little later than I thought. For the first few months, nobody was really saying that. In fact, there was, you know, there's been, as you can expect, criticism on both sides. Some people wish it was more progressive than it is. And then, you know, people on the right, you know, wish it was less progressive or more conservative than it is.

So, but I mean, that's, I mean, anytime you publish anything, you're, you know, you're going to get criticism. So there's, there was really no surprise there. Um, I mean, and honestly, I mean, almost all of, well, I would say all of the criticism that has taken that kind of, that form of this is woke, you know, this is D a D I Bible or whatever. It's like, they're just kind of like unthoughtful anti-intellectual critiques. Like they resort to slogans or talking points in spite of, instead of actually like critically interacting with the nodes and saying here's

why I just get this note. Here's why I think this is wrong. Here's why. And, you know, providing like a, a really good, thoughtful, good faith argument why they are disappointed in, in the notes. So, um, and as, as I think most of you know, like, you know, I get piles of critiques every day for a shit. I could sneeze and I'll get critiqued for it. So I have to choose what is worth my time to respond to. And if it's just a slur, if it's just a slogan thrown at me or, yeah, this is a book bible. No, it's not, or okay.

I don't know what to do with that. So what's fascinating, or okay, like I don't know what to do with that. So, you know, what's fascinating, I guess, a lot, yeah, a lot, I guess maybe all the critiques that are along those lines of this is woke, this is a DEI Bible, it just, it seems pretty clear from the little I paid attention to it that they haven't actually read the notes. I mean, the study notes in the Upside Down Kingdom

Study Bible, they clearly say that marriage is between a man and a woman, clearly say that all sex outside of marriage is sin, they say that sex is binary, male and female, that abortion is sin. All of the notes presume the full inspiration and authority of the Bible for all of life and practice. So I don't, is that woke? I'm not even sure what people mean half the time when they say woke. So, I don't know. It doesn't seem like people have actually read those notes. We do have notes that address things like social justice, notes written on inspired biblical passages that talk about social justice.

We have passages that have, you know, or notes that address the value of ethnic reconciliation in passages that show a deep concern for ethnic reconciliation. So that's woke, you know, I don't, I just don't have time to like, you know, respond to that. So I did have, I think I said this before, I did have a wonderful offline hour and a half conversation with Mike Winger. Mike Winger is a YouTuber, podcaster,

does a lot of stuff on the Bible and culture and stuff. He did a lengthy review of the study of Bible. I tuned in for like 20 minutes and I had some problems with his critique. I think a preacher, he explicitly said, this isn't like a woke Bible or whatever. He did not take that lazy, just slogan slinging approach. But he did say several things that I thought were inaccurate. We talked through those. There's a couple of things he pushed back on that. I'm like, that's pretty legit. Or let me give you some more context for that and explain maybe some of his concerns. And then other things, I think he got wrong, we'd talk through that. And again, it was a wonderful conversation. So yeah, I'm happy to take time to interact with somebody like that, that it's maybe more thoughtful than the rest of the critiques that are thrown out the Bible. All right. Next question.

How would I explain the difference between sexual attraction and sinful sexual lust? I've explained this, you know, in many, many places, so I'll try to be super concise and clear here. Basically the way I understand sexual attraction, I mean, people might define it differently. Okay. So when I use a term sexual attraction, it refers to, one might say the potential, the potential for temptation or lust.

Okay? So if, just so I can ask yourself, if you experience sexual temptation, is it towards males, females, or both? However you answer that question, I would say, okay, then you are sexually attracted to blank, okay? This doesn't mean you're lusting after every member of that sex, doesn't even mean you're remotely tempted

by all or even most or many members of that sex. It just means that when you experience sexual temptation, it's typically toward one of the two sexes. For a small percentage, you might possibly be tempted to lust toward both sexes. So that's what I mean when I talk about sexual attraction. It's the general orientation toward a member of either males or females that if you're going to experience sexual temptation, it would be toward that category of human being. So here's where I think people get tripped up on, because the Bible, it does talk about sinful sexual desires, okay? It'll use a, typically use a term, epithemia, like in Matthew 5 22. If anybody looks upon a woman in order to

epithemia her, lust after her, then you know, you might as well be committing adultery. So, there are people that say, well, that's a sinful sexual desire. And I would say, obviously it is, but I don't think the Greek term epithamia, or when the Bible talks about sexual desire, that that category can be perfectly mapped upon what we mean today when we talk about sexual attraction. In fact, epithamia can be used positively in certain contexts. There could be good desires, bad desires.

I don't think when the Bible talks about epithemia in a negative way that it's referring to lust. I don't think it's referring to the potential to experience a temptation for sexual lust. I think epithemia is sexual lust in the context that it's used. So I don't think there is a biblical word that perfectly maps upon what we mean today by same sex or opposite sex, sexual attraction, again, when we define it as the potential for temptation or lust. And that's not, I mean, there's many things we talk about today that don't have one-to-one correlation with the biblical categories

that are used throughout the Bible. That's not an uncommon thing. And if you, I guess, I would be holding on to the conversation. If you're like, no, I need every single category we're using today to be perfectly addressed in the same exact terms in the Bible. And I'm going to say, well, that's just a view of—that's a bigger conversation about your view of Scripture and how it applies to today. So, next question Gregory wants to know, is the kingdom a meritocracy? The gate is grace, full stop, but what about rewards and placement within the kingdom?

Is that based on works? Okay, so this is a massive, massive scholarly discussion and debate. This is one that I was, I mean, needy been for, I would say, 10 years of my early scholarship, I would say, basically the whole like 2000s, like from 2001, 2002, all the way to 2010, 2011, 12 maybe. Yeah, just about that 10 year period where this is like one of the main interests in my scholarly journey. It's also one that I haven't really touched in the last 12 to 15 years.

My thoughts are not as crisp and fresh on this part of the conversation in Paul's theology as they once were. Okay, so let me start by saying I don't think meritocracy is the best word to use to describe this tension between faith and works in salvation and the relationship between those categories. I do think when the Bible talks about works from believers or obedience, that it is referring to Spirit- spirit generated works. I got a couple of passages here that, you know, I just love how Paul talks about this tension between faith and works in Philippians 2, 12 and 13. Paul says,

"'Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation. It's an interesting phrase, right? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. That sounds like very, okay, wait, so it's based on works, or working out our salvation, I thought salvation was a free gift. Then he says, then he goes on to say,

for it is God who works in you, to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. So he can really seamlessly say, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why? Because it's God who's at work in you. This beautiful interaction between divine and human agency in the human response to God's salvific work in our life.

1 Corinthians 15, 9 and 10, Paul says, for I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God, but by the grace of God, I am what I am and His grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them. Yet not I, but the grace that is in me." You see how he kind of keeps going back and forth. He's talking about working hard, but it's God is working in me and therefore I worked hard,

but it's all God's grace. And I think that just captures this beautiful tension between divine and human agency in the life of the believer. Final judgment is based on works. It's kind of hard to get around that. Second Corinthians 5, 10, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, speaking to believers here, so that each one of us may receive what is due for the things we have done while on the body, whether good or bad.

You see something similar in Romans 14, 10 to 12. And here I would just say, you know, final judgment is based on spirit generated works that flow from a person who by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ responded in repentance and obedience to the Lordship of Jesus and lives a life devoted to Him. So that judgment is based on sort of like

the total life lived. This is, I do think, this is going to maybe trip some of you up, but I do think back in the 80s when John MacArthur was debating kind of an ongoing debate with the, you know, MacArthur was advocating for Lordship salvation that you're not saved simply by, you know, confessing Jesus as Savior, but by submitting to Him as Lord, like the lordship of Jesus is an essential part of the salvific process, the salvific experience. Even the little words like process can trip people up. But the Bible clearly talks about, you know, we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved as a past, present, and future aspect of our salvation. In fact, Paul often talks about the present and future aspect of salvation.

You do have passages like, you know, Ephesians 2, 8, 9 that do talk about salvation in the past tense. But if you look at all the Pauline passages, I mean, there's past, present, future aspect of salvation. So yeah, so when MacArthur was advocating for Lordship salvation against the people, I think mainly from like Dallas Seminary and others, they were arguing for free grace that we confess Jesus as Savior. And if you say, that we confess Jesus as savior. And if you say, you know, and I hope I'm going back like 25 years of my memory here, but you know, if you add the Lordship of Jesus

to salvation, then you're adding works to salvation. And you know, there's an ongoing debate back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And I think MacArthur is right there. I think the Lordship of Jesus is an essential part of the salvation experience. N.T. Wright came along years later and kind of said the same thing,

although he wasn't, I don't think he was aware of the, you know, the MacArthur free grace debates of the eighties, that him and John Piper got into it a bit, not the feisty way, that's, yeah, that's pretty feisty actually. And they had a couple of books back and forth on the nature of justification and final salvation. And I think NT Wright in his own terms

was kind of saying something extremely similar to what MacArthur was saying back in the eighties. And you might think, wow, that's an interesting company. Yeah, so I do think, I don't think once we understand all the theological nuances of salvation, grace, faith, sanctification, final judgment, I think we can say that final judgment is based on spirit-generated works, which are a response to God's grace and a natural outflow of God's grace and can't be separated from God's grace. And once we understand it that way, we should have no problem saying judgment is based on works.

Again, not just divorce from everything else, but works integrated in the total life lived. Now, I only know if I answered your direct questions, you're talking about I only know if I answered your direct questions, you're talking about rewards and placement within the kingdom. Okay, so you do have several passages that talk about different like crowns that believers received or different rewards. I mean, there's a lot of passages here,

you know, 1 Corinthians 9, 24, 25 talks about like, running the race and receiving an imperishable crown. You have Paul talks about a crown of rejoicing in 1 Thessalonians 2, 19, a crown of righteousness in 2 Timothy 4, 8, crown of glory, 1 Peter 5, 4, and there's other passages that are relevant here. I will say there is a debate when the Bible talks about crowns or rewards that the believer receives, there's a big debate whether these are talking about different levels in the kingdom.

Okay, so yeah, salvation is by grace, but if you work really hard and you're a really good Christian, you pray a lot and stuff, and you believe people to Jesus, whatever, you get a higher place in the kingdom of God. Okay, that's one view. Another view is that these different, when the Bible talks about different rewards and different crowns,

these are just different kind of angles, different metaphors for the one free gift of salvation. So that's not that there's like levels in the kingdom, but these are just talking about different aspects of the salvation that we all receive. I honestly, I mean, there's many PhD. Dissertations have been written on this. In fact, my old prof from seminary, um, Dr. James Ross cup, uh, who is one of the more godly people I've ever met my entire life.

He would literally get up like, I mean, and he didn't advertise this. It just, people kind of thought out about it, you know, that he would get up and just pray for like hours and he'd get up like four in the morning to pray for like three or four hours every day. And one of the most humble, gracious people you can ever come across. And that's pretty, that's not disputed. Anybody who's spent more than five seconds in the presence of Dr. James Roskup would very much say that.

And he, he got a, he got a PhD, I think it's called a PhD from Dallas Seminary. And then he, um, I'm not sure why, but he decided to do another PhD from Aberdeen university under the great, the late great, almost had planet earth, the late great I Howard Marshall, because he wanted to figure out this question. He, he wrote his second PhD dissertation on this. I think it was on first Corinthians three, where it's one of the passages that talks about these different levels of rewards.

And I'm almost positive, and I hope if people are listening that they know Dr. Roskup's view on this, I'm almost positive he took that second view that these, that did different crowns and different awards. These are different metaphors, different lenses looking at the same free gift of salvation. But please don't quote me on that. I remember this is, I remember him explaining it in class.

This is like, I think I did a Christian for just a couple of years, three years or something. And he's like, my mind is just blown that there's this massive debate and you can go to Scotland and do a PhD. In fact, it was another reason why I wanted to go to Scotland to do a PhD at Aberdeen too, because James Roskope would talk about his experience there. So anyway, all that to say, big debate. I leaned towards that second view that it's

different rewards for, or sorry, different metaphors for the one reward of salvation. Do you have a harder time thinking about different levels in the kingdom. I don't think those passages clearly are saying that and also theologically that presents, I think, a bit of a conflict with other passages that talk about salvation by gracing faith. All right, next question. Jason wants to know that I, you know, he said, Jason says you've covered a wide variety of topics, topics over the years. Is there any topic you find uninteresting or would prefer not to discuss? That's a great question. There weren't uninteresting. I love this word. And it's but it's a tough one

because I you know, I might find a topic to be very important, but just not interesting to me. And that's not because it's a Because I might find a topic to be very important, but just not interesting to me. And that's not because it's a bad topic. It could be, I could be like so excited that other people are diving into this topic research and it's just not an interest to me, but that can just sound so negative. Like, what, you don't think this is important?

For instance, I don't think I'd ever write a book on prayer. I don't think, apparently, because I'm not good at it. I struggle with it. And I want other people who are good at it to write a book on it. So if someone says, well, you don't find prayer interesting enough to write a book on, you don't think prayer is important? I'm like, well, I'm not saying that. Super important. There's many things that are important. The only few that are, you know, at the moment are grabbing my attention. Hey friends, I hope you enjoyed this portion of the Patreon Only Q&A podcast. If you would like to listen to the full length episode and receive other bonus content like monthly podcasts, opportunities to ask questions, access to first drafts of my research and

monthly Zoom chats and more, then please head over to patreon.com forward slash theologyinthera to join theology in ra's Patreon community. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the rock. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day, and together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it.

If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave so I started Haven the podcast it's a safe space for curiosity and conversation and we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships to even your view of yourself and we don't have answers or solutions, but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven the podcast.