Theology in the Raw - Celebrating Christmas as an Act of Defiance: Dr. Munther Isaac

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian pastor, theologian, author, and activist. He has an MA from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. Munther is the pastor of Hope Evangelical Church in Ramallah, Palestine, and the Director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice. Munther is also the author of several books including the recently released: Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Music in this episode:Rejoice! by Evan Wickham. From Christmas Music Vol. 2 O Holy Night by Evan Wickham. From Christmas Music Vol. 2Used with Permission Evan’s YoutubeEvan’s Site Christmas Nativity Story Animation by M_Y_G. Licensed through Envato.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Merry Christmas to you all. I wanted to share a special Christmas message with you, but I decided that who better to share a Christmas message and someone who was born in Bethlehem. My friend, Dr. Munther Isak. Mouther is the pastor of Hope Evangelical Church in Ramallah Palestine, and he's a director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice. He's also the author of the very challenging. and in some ways prophetic book called Christ in the rubble. Moutre was born and raised in Bethlehem and shares how Palestinian Christians celebrate Christmas as an act of defiance.

Are you poor, do you grieve? Are you voiceless, then rejoice for the king of heaven comes to you are you hungry for the peace of the nations then rejoice for the spirit is making this world new do you need bread and water from the father then rejoice Oh, rejoice. Mouther, it's great to have you back on Theology and Raw. I would love for you to talk to us about Christmas from a Palestinian perspective. You grew up in, we're born in, and live in the land where Christmas happened.

And yet, us who are. living in the west have a, if I can say it, a very materialistic, consumeristic Western perspective on Christmas that for Christians we're constantly having to weed out and detangle from our faith. How do you understand the meaning of Christmas from a Palestinian perspective? And when I think of Christmas, I always, you know, think of how we celebrated it in Bethlehem and how much influenced. Even here in Palestine, we are by Western traditions, the Christmas tree, the celebrations, the festivals, but then the music itself, the themes, the manger, which very often you see a manger sold in Palestine, all of wood, beautiful, but, you know, in the shape of a triangle on the top, you know, mimicking maybe. European house where, you know, snow wants to fall.

It doesn't snow here. And so, but, you know, that forces me to continue to think, is this a true meaning of Christmas and how, what did we make of Christmas? And I've always realized something different from the biblical story itself, from how we look at it. Even the whole atmosphere of joy, actually, we, you know, there's something different. But to be quite honest, the deeper, the time I went so deep into thinking of the meaning of Christmas

was in the last two years because in Palestine we cancelled the celebrations which means we can only celebrate Christmas through prayer so no gifts, no trees, no lights, no festivals, no music, you know, just go to church and pray and think of the story but then preach the story in a time when people are suffering in a time when everyone is fearful, everyone is troubled and that's when the connections between the context in biblical times

and the reality today here in Palestine became so clear that I found in the Christmas story so much insight, so many meanings, so much relevancy. And it's not an exaggeration when I say that. It's like a mirror story to our experience. I don't know if you remember at the beginning, of the war on Gaza. The ones who were lucky to

escape the genocide did so by going to Egypt. And many thought and people we know maybe we can stay in the churches where they were hiding and of course we know that wasn't safe even

but we're afraid for our children. And so they ended up going taking a very risky trip to Egypt to the borders of Raffa and then crossing to Egypt. I mean, just think of that. We're talking about its exact same story

because we read scripture and Joseph and Mary escaped a massacre of children. They were afraid for their own child, went to a journey, into Egypt out of all places. And so that's when, again, I began to shape and think more about the true meaning of Christmas and the whole idea of Jesus being born on the side of

I always see on our side of the world on the side of the occupied on the side, not the side of empire, not the side of Rome and by the way, not even the side of Jerusalem, the religious capital but he was born in the marchants pretty much

and as I said the deeper you think of that Christmas story with its details, the more you're realize how much resemblance it has with our own reality today. Let me give you some examples. I mean, and by the way, we're not accustomed to thinking of the Christmas story in such a way. And just to be clear, you know, the traditional meaning of Christmas is still there, the incarnation, you know, God sent his son to save us.

Of course, we all believe in that, but it's much more than that. It is that and more. And when I look at, for example, the story of Luke, the gospel of Luke, the story of Christmas through Luke. And Luke chapter 2, a verse, by the way, we memorize as children the whole chapter. You know, I remember reciting in Arabic Luke chapter 2 in its entirety. It begins with the senses. and of course I never thought of the census it's meaning what does it mean

why did Luke preface the Christmas narrative with the census because that's the backdrop that's the context it's as if when you know you have a story a play and a drama

in a theater that's the back that's what you see in the back the census that's when Jesus was born and maybe we think of it as more of a historical addition. It's just because Luke was interested in history he wanted to document when exactly

Jesus was born. But I think it's much more than that. Because what was the census? The census was a mean of control registration for specifically control and taxation. It's a very common tool

of the empire. And it's meant to control and to make sure that you are in charge of every little detail of those you colonize. So Joseph and Mary had to leave Nazareth and to come all the way to Bethlehem, right? Why? Because that's where they originally came from.

Since you have to go where you originally come from, but again, that's a very common tool of empires. And I kid you none, we still have the same thing today here in Palestine. because Israel controls us through of course it's not technology it's not a normal census it's through magnetic cards every Palestinian must issue a magnetic

card and of course by technology it became an app on our phone by the Israeli military so that they can monitor and we have to register and now I live in Ramallah I am originally from Bethlehem because of our church system we rotate every eight years seven years

we go from place to place so now in Ramallah But if I want to renew my magnetic card, I can do it in Ramallah in the military base. I have to go back to Bethlehem where I am originally from. I mean, it's the same exact thing. And so when I say, when I tell the story now of the senses and the family leaving Nazareth to Bethlehem, I tell them it's, you know, the same thing we have to do when we renew our or issue a new magnetic card. We have to go to a military base. And we can't just to go to anyone.

You have to go to the base where you originally come from. Again, that's a classic tool of empires to control, to keep within a territory, to keep you within a territory. And you can't miss it as a Palestinian when you read that part of the story. And that's the backdrop of the story. That's the context. So Jesus was born when the empire was doing its best to do. divide and control us.

Muthra, I'm curious, so that I have never heard that about the magnetic card and on your phones. Is that something only Palestinians in the West Bank have? Palestinians in the West Bank, yes. That's one way of controlling Palestinians in the West Bank. So they can see wherever you are, they track, I mean, if you're going outside, if you're going down the street, if you're going. I guess so.

And if I am among the privileged and lucky to get a permit from the military to go to Jerusalem, I have to through that card, stamp entering Jerusalem, stamp exiting Jerusalem. So again, it's a way. And if you don't stamp, they send you a message. If you go somewhere, you know, without, you're not supposed to be, they send you a message. So they monitor. They know exactly where we are. So when we say Jesus was born in terms of occupation,

it makes perfect sense to us. And it's not as if we resonate with the story or we understand the details. It's much deeper than that. It's that we see Jesus identifying with us in our suffering in the midst of injustice. I mean the whole idea that the Holy Family

became refugees displaced they were forced to leave forced migration that's it that's the Palestinian experience having to deliver a child

in unwanted places not places of comfort again think of how many Palestinian women today in Gaza delivering children in tents because there is no room for them in any end so

in that you read the Christmas story and I can go on and on deeper in the details because it's everywhere in the story and as Palestinians as I said

it's one thing to say we the story mirrors our experience but it's deeper than that it's that we can say we see Jesus identifying with us

we see God in solidarity with us and I think it's an important it's part of the story that Jesus was born

on this side of the empire remember to establish a kingdom and you can see that also in Matthew I mean the whole

gospel of Matthew I think it's especially chapter 2 is written in that clash between two kingdoms, right? One that

is embodied in the vulnerable child and the other is embodied in a ruthless merciless, paranoid ruler politician. And, you know,

Matthew shocks us in that the Maghais came to worship not to the rich you know temple builder you know ruthless

ruler but to Jesus and and and that makes herod paranoid and you think how is he why is he afraid of a little child

and why does he interrogate the magis you know you know we can even say they have to go through a checkpoint before, you know, you're going to Bethlehem because, you know, interrogates, he hears about them. Tell me what the child is, so I go and worship to that child.

And I think Matthew is here sending us a message in that. And it's, I always think it's the audacity of Matthew writing the gospel in early Christianity to say that this is the true king, not the one who built, you know, castles or again the ruthless children and again to think that a massacre happened to children when Jesus was

born and that the Holy Family as I said had to go of all places to Egypt so you see how many elements mimic our experience today and the fact that politicians or rulers

make just decisions like that and can justify them to kill children And it seems okay. And I mean, the first century, right, the Jewish people were literally militarily occupied by an empire. And, yeah, the parallels are astounding. I, in Luke chapter 2 and Matthew and Luke 2 and Matthew 1 and 2, it is, and I've studied this a while back. And it's, it's, it's, the retelling of the birth of Christ is profoundly political, as you're saying. Like, when Luke begins his story in chapter two by identifying political powers and a census, as you said, what was a tool of imperialism? It was a means of oppression. I think us living in like a quote unquote democracy and we might grumble about taxes, but it was different back then. It was, no, no, it was different. It was different. It was an extension of. of imperial oppression.

And so to frame the birth of the Messiah, a very politicized term, especially in the first century, in the midst of a census, everybody reading this story in the first century would have seen that this is a clash of empires. And then you go on, and the angels tell the good news to the shepherds,

again, a very in society ranking a very low people these are the ones who bring the good news and by the way I grew up in the town

of the shepherds the shepherds the shepherds feet and I joke if you know we are proud being the descendants of the shepherds

that's how we talk about ourselves but I always joke if we knew how shepherds were perceived even their witness their testimony wasn't even credited

accepted in all courts you know they were the lowly people who smelled not nice and so on and these are the ones that were chosen to declare the good news uh the uangelione the gospel uh of the birth not of caesar the good news not of a military victory which was common in in roman times you know the whole idea of a gospel as good news It's either military victory or the birth of a new son of God as in Caesar.

And the good news is this child in Bethlehem born to a simple family, a village family from Nazareth. I town that nobody probably heard about a town that, you know, you know the reputation. Nothing good comes from Nazareth. Of course, it's not true today. I have many friends from Nazareth, many good things in Nazareth. but back then that was the that was the idea and that is the new kingdom that's the new good news that challenges that king that the good news of empire and then the conclusion which is amazing especially when you think of the relevance of today is peace on earth right

Luke 2.14. And of course, every time, you know, you mentioned peace, you have to stop here, especially in this context today, where everyone is searching for peace, everyone is talking about peace. And the whole idea of peace coming through this child, as opposed to Pax Romana, the piece that comes from the Romans,

what was the piece of the Romans? It was the peace that comes through, Mike, through force, through subduing anybody who is against Rome. It's peace by force. I mean, you can't make this up, the resemblance of today. And today, how this concept today is celebrated that we're going to bring peace by force, feast through strength, we're going to subdue,

we're going to bully until you accept our terms. And then we will win peace price and that's what is called peace and of course we know that's not biblical shalom that's not the peace that we find in scripture and that's not what the angels sang about in

Bethlehem so again everywhere you look in the Christmas story you see these may I say political elements that speak directly to our Palestinian

experience and and send us a very, very clear message as Palestinians. But again, you have to get rid, I don't know what's the right word, of all the romantic elements we associated Christmas with, the silent night. It was anything but silent. It was anything but peaceful.

The night Jesus was born. Maybe we should really recreate these songs. you know Jesus was born times of wars revolutions polemics religious diversity not diverse but religious

you know different religious sex competing for your allegiance this is the context in which Jesus was born not the image of snow and peace

and nice music that you know we associate we associate Christmas with. Do you think you mentioned you were born in the Shepherds field where the birth of Jesus was announced. I grew up in the Shepard's Field. You grew up there.

I was born in a hospital in Bethlehem. So that's my, you know, in my certificate, it says born in Bethlehem. So no one can take that from me. But I grew up in Batesahur, the Shepherds' field, yes. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I've heard that Jesus couldn't have been born or probably wasn't born in wintertime

because shepherds wouldn't be shepherding their flocks at night in the middle of December. Do you find, what are your thoughts on the timing of Jesus' birth? Not that it matters a ton. And not that it matters, but yes, most likely it would be springtime. And that's when shepherds, even today, stay late at night or sleep. That's when it's the best time to take sheep and outside. So that would make more sense. But by the way, even if it was winter, it doesn't snow much here.

Believe me, I wish it did. So this idea of snow, I don't know where we brought it from. And some, you know, I've read that, you know, even the journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem in wintertime would have been very, very difficult. And so, again, not that it matters, but we don't know the time. But it's very possible it was not in winter. Did you know that 30% of Americans grind their teeth at night? this is like super bad for you it's not good for your teeth it disrupts the quality of your sleep did you also know that dentists are super expensive of course you did this is why you need to check out remi remi's custom night guards are clinically tested and FDA cleared to prevent teeth grinding reduced jaw tension and facial muscle strain and improve sleep quality you'll get the same professional quality and comfort as a night guard from the dentist but remi costs you 80% less and is much more convenient than having the good go into the dentist's office. So here's how it works. You receive your impression kit straight

to your door. Then follow Remy's step-by-step instructions to get your perfect impression. Remy crafts and ships you your custom fit night guard. And then you get your night guard back and start protecting your teeth. I've done this whole process myself. It's super easy. And even if you mess up, Remy has outstanding customer service to help you along the way. So start the new year right and use code TITR to get 50% off your purchase. of a new night guard. That's 50% off at ShopR-R-E-M-I. Okay, that's shop, then R-E-M-I.com forward slash T-I-T-R with code T-I-T-R. Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. My dog, Tank, and I share several traits. One of them is that we love to eat junk food,

even though we know it's not good for us. Well, Tank doesn't seem to care, but I care. And this is why I was excited to find out about better wild supplement chews. These healthy snacks taste great. Apparently, you haven't tried them, but Tank, scarf them up like their candy, but they also help support your dog's joints, dental health, digestive support, and even allergy support. Did you know that dog allergies are up 30% in the last decade? Being exposed to all of our pollen, dust, mold, and human dander makes dogs allergies worse. 90% of your dog's immune system lives in the gut and a weak gut leaves your dog more vulnerable to allergies. That's

where better wild allergy relief soft chews come in. These tasty treats are designed to support your dog's allergy defense system by strengthening their digestion. Right now, BetterWild is offering our listeners up to 40% off your order at betterwild.com forward slash T-I-T-R. That's betterwild.com slash T-I-T-R for up to 40% off your order. Betterwild.com slash T-I-T-R. I'm curious, what is the spirit among Palestinian Christians around this, this season with the last two and a half or more than two years of war, violence,

genocide, escalation and violence in the West Bank, which is from us in the West, is largely ignored in light of what's been going on in Gaza. And then since the quote-unquote ceased fire, I'm sure that, I'm sure that term might, you might have some questions about that term ceasefire. There's been many people have been killed since then. What's this with so many tragedies and oppression, especially, I mean, it's been going on for decades, but especially the last over two years. Do Christians, are they joyful during Christmas? They celebrate? Or is it still a time of lament? Or what's the, what's Christmas like among Palestinian Christians? No, I think to describe it.

I think I can talk about resilience, even defiance and insisting on celebrating just go and look at the celebration that happened in Bethlehem this time the lighting of the Christmas tree of course no one forgot or ignored or stopped talking about the wider context

but there is a message that's now being repeated in most Palestinian Christian context which is that by celebrating it's part of our resilience and we're sending a message that we are here, we're not going anywhere, and that we want to continue to remind the world that Bethlehem is still a real place.

This is where it all started. It has people. And that we must continue to tell the story of Christmas. And in a very, very... a strange way, I think. I don't know how to describe it. Because I think Palestinians speak about peace

more than any people group around the world. We always say we will celebrate one day in peace. We always say that. We always think and Jesus is commonly known, referred to here as Jesus the Prince of Peace.

So even in speeches And you have to remember in Palestine, Christmas is a national thing. Although Christians are 1%, but everybody celebrates Christmas because everybody respects Jesus and Jesus was born in Bethlehem. And it's very common, by the way, you know, if you go to the Christmas tree now in Bethlehem, you'll find more Muslims taking pictures than you'll find Christians. Even today in our church, we had a concert of an assembly

from a group Kamenjati from Ramallah of course I couldn't tell if the musicians were Christians or Muslims but I know too well many if not the majority were Muslims playing Christmas carols in our church. It was amazing so

that's the atmosphere. Everybody celebrates but they have to take you from the churches. If the churches say we'll celebrate everyone with the the community celebrates and this time I think it was needed. I think people were feeling so desperate. They wanted to have any signs of

life. And again, you know, to think of the many, many messages you can find in Christmas that speak directly to our reality. So it's very appropriate to celebrate Christmas as in thinking the story, remembering the story. And this year, as I said, the additional, it's not like before the war. It's not the same. The celebrations are still muted, but we're sending a message that, yeah, we will light our trees, we will go on with our lives, and we will reclaim our lives as well. And I've seen that even in Gaza, they've lit two Christmas trees and two churches that remain, the Catholic and the Orthodox. And to me, you know, I wonder where they get the strengths to even think of Christmas and celebrate it.

But that's where, you know, that's why we have faith. That's why we believe in God. That's why we believe in these things? Because if they don't help us in times like this, you know, why do we have faith to begin with? So to me, these are statements of defiance, I say, that we are still here. I love that. I love that so much. Can you give us a bit of insight in what's been going on in Palestine since the ceasefire when was announced, when it was October 11th, I believe it was?

From my perspective, I think us in the West, those who were paying attention to the war, I think many of them kind of said, all right, we're done. All right, great. It's over. good job now I listen to different kind of media outlets that are following it every single day

so I know better than that but you're you're you're there what has life been like and over the last couple months so first of all I mean I don't want to sound as if

dismissive of what's happening but and I applaud every effort to stop the killing. And any clan that seeks to bring peace is good. Might not be perfect, but at least we're trying. But let's be real.

And there is no ceasefire. More than 370 Palestinians have been killed since then, including children. And by Israel directly. We're not even counting the number of people killed indirectly because of the terrible medical situation. It's not as if aid is coming in big numbers. And it's not as if hospitals have regained the capacity to host people.

And we've had a very strong, two strong winter storms here in Palestine, especially one in the last two weeks with so much rain, heavy, heavy rain and it's heartbreaking to see the tents soaking wet with water and in the cold, no heating,

you're sleeping literally on me, can you just imagine? And those images were so hard to watch because, you know, you just want to believe it's over, this misery, but it feels it goes from stage to stage the bombing, the snipers, this starvation now this terrible cold weather

and you know if the heater is not working well or the heating in our house here and we're feeling warm and for 10 minutes not working we all feel discomfort imagine you know sleeping in a tent that you know have inches of water that's what's happening now in Gaza

especially in the south where the tents are so let's not kid ourselves and to be honest I've been very suspicious from the beginning because the basis of this so-called peace deal or what they are proposing is what I said it's based on

peace by force we impose our terms we dictate our terms there's no accountability and the fact that someone who's a convicted war criminal was standing, announcing a peace deal I mean it's ridiculous in my opinion and again, you know, I want the Kinnick to stop

I hope, you know, something comes out of this but all indications point that it will not work if it's not based on the base on the values of righteousness and justice and accountability. And the West Bank, it keeps getting worse. Almost every day, and I'm not exaggerating,

almost every day a Palestinian is killed, either by the military or the settlers, including teenagers and children, just three days ago or four days ago, a 16-year-old was killed near Bethlehem, in Tukua. And these things are happening constantly, now almost on a daily basis.

these settlers are unchecked. They are supported by a system, by government, by military. Is that a problem of few fringe radical settlers? The checkpoints have increased. They are becoming more and more hard to cross, to operate. We try to adjust, to be honest, but you can't go around fear. is real. When you go through a checkpoint, you're always fearful. When you travel through these roads shared by the settlers, it's fearful. I know a couple of my friends who left the village

outside of Ramallah because their cars were burned by the settlers. And then they thought, first they burned our cars, then they would burn the homes. They had children. So they came to live with their parents in Ramallah. So the threats are there. The fear is there. But we go on. Sometimes you have to cancel things. I wish we could go to Bethlehem more. You know, even my youth group here in Ramallah say, can we go to Ramallah?

Can we go to Bethlehem and can we go and it's Christmas? And I can't take responsibility to, you know, take them through a checkpoint and it's two to three hours. I don't know what's going to happen. So, you know, this is the reality of the situation. right now in the West Bank, you come inside of our churches and you won't feel that because we're celebrating, we're worshipping, we're having concerts,

Christmas concerts, we're having Christmas drama and so on. But, you know, when you step outside and consider everything that's happening, it's, and it's not sustainable for sure. It cannot last like this. from what I understand there is plenty of aid that could go into Gaza but is not they're not letting nearly enough aid go in is that correct or why no there's so I don't know there are so many restrictions still and even journalists have not entered Gaza let's remember that to cover what's happening and at the same time let's remember that how much you need to bring into cause, how much aid you need to bring into cause,

how much medicine you need. And just think of the number of people, including children, with missing body parts, you know, who needs. So the need is going to be so, so strong, so big, so massive. When you think of every detail that is needed, whether it is to remove the rubble. It's going to take years.

To rebuild the infrastructure. To bring enough infrastructure to rebuild the hospitals. To bring enough medicine. To begin deal with the new diseases that are occurring. To begin still counting for the missing people. The need is so severe and it's not open fully yet. it's a bit better than when it was two, three months ago, but it's not good enough to say, yeah, things are improving.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sorry, Muther to hear that. I hear it from a distance every day as I keep up on things, but yeah, to hear. And, you know, when we sent messages to the people we know in the churches in Gaza, the war is over yes their homes are destroyed so what's next

they don't know they have no idea where are you going to live we don't know and things became so messy inside of Gaza destruction neighborhoods flattened people who left

neighborhoods went to other neighborhoods and then found half a house they stayed in it and you go back your house, you find three, four families sheltering in what remained from your house and you can't tell them leave, you know,

everybody is now moving and so on. It's an entire area that has been completely decimated. So the reality is now is that they live in the unknown. What's next? They have no idea.

And again, you know, we, through the Shepherd Society, Ministry of Bethlehem Bible College and through other ministries, you know, we're trying to send some aid, if it's words, but also bring teachers to teach the kids. And you see them singing in the church learning, Arabic, learning English, trying to do homeschooling, but in fresh ways. And so there is strong signs of life, for sure, inside of Gaza. But the overall picture is, it's going to need years and years and years to recover.

And even after you do all of the things I mentioned, the psychological trauma that has impacted literally every member of the 2 million people who live in Gaza generation after generation. Remember, this is not the first war, but it's much, much worse than that. I don't know what's going to take to heal Gaza

if that's even possible. Yeah. One more question, Munturn, then I'll let you go. What can you tell American Christians or Western Christians you know, like me. I'm sitting here in my basement.

I've got heat pouring in. I'm almost too hot. I'm comfortable. I don't have the threat. I could walk outside with zero. I don't even think about like, am I going to have a settler attack me or the military?

I have no checkpoints. I can go wherever I want. My passport can get me most places in the world. And my tax dollars. I watch part of my tax dollars. I watch part of my tax dollars going to fund the very oppression that you're talking about. It's a weird, for those of us who have reflected on that, it's surreal. And sometimes I just, I don't know how to feel.

Should I feel guilty about the endless comforts I have? Should I feel guilty about my tax dollars? I mean, it's not like I'm choosing to do this, but, you know, part of my money is going to pay for bombing children. Can you pastor me and others who might be wrestling with this tension as we enter the Christmas season? Can I add to your guilt before I pastor you? And it's a theology, Preston. It's the theology.

You know, your country sent us an ambassador who still lives in 7th century BC. You still think this is Judean, Samir. You know, all of it is Jewish land and hangs out with the settlers who are terrorizing us, reminding them or telling them, confirming to them that they are exceptional, chosen by God and that his mandate is to bless them

because he wants to be blessed by God. I mean, you know, it's this idea of, I mean, think of the contrast here between the God we meet in Jesus, born in Bethlehem bringing good news through the referee shepherds with

the god of Hakabi who and others who bases his relationship who conditions his relationship to Munder and Preston based on whether Munder and Preston

bless a genocidal state not on how pure your heart is, not on even whether you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, not even whether you believe in the Trinity or adopted a certain

set of beliefs or values. It's what you do with Israel. Do you bless Israel? Then that's good. You're on God's side. You don't bless that genocidal state. You're not on God's side. I mean, it's something about. So, yeah, just what to add another element

to your guilt. I've listened to several talks and interviews of Mike Huckabee over the last year or so, and it absolutely makes my skin crawl when I hear him talk, which I, which if he would be fine if he said he was an atheist, whatever, I'd be like, okay, you know, I don't, fine, you're living according to a moral code that I don't share, but for him to say I'm living out my Christian faith and the things I'm saying, I'm like, it just, it makes my skin crawl, makes my stomach.

He puts my life in danger and the life of my community every day by continuing to bless and support these settlers who are terrorizing us. Guilt is not good. I mean, it's good to acknowledge privilege. It's good to acknowledge that we're blessed and not take these things for granted. And I think it's mandatory for us as Christians, whether we live in places of privilege or not,

but especially if we live in places of privilege. to remember others and to think of others who are less fortunate than us. It's part of our identity as Christians to always think outwardly. How do we bless others? How do we use what God has given us to be a blessing towards others?

That's at least how I understand Abrahamic call in Genesis 12. And the discipleship, the call to be. be disciples of Jesus. So if you think of it this way, rather than feeling guilt, you have to ask, what can I do better? How can I use whatever God has blessed us with to do better, to be more accountable with the blessings that God has given us, and to remember that we are one family globally as

humanity, but especially you have siblings in Christ and other places around the world who would value so much the support. And I hope it goes beyond charity in which you give so that you feel good about yourself and end up thinking, oh, I'm good, I made a box and we're going to send it to poor little children in Africa or in the Middle East. It has to do more. It has to be more than that. I mean, that's what we train our little children to do. That's good for children. We teach them to give.

That's good. That's amazing. That's commendable. But it has to be more than that. It has to engage with resetting the values of our communities, talking about issues, talking about injustice, talking about what American foreign policy is doing around the world, listening to voices from outside and allowing them to,

at least, you know, help expand your view on things. It takes sometimes humility to say, yes, we are wrong, we're responsible and we need to do things better. It has to do with holding your politicians accountable. You can just shrug and say, yeah, I don't control where my money is paid, but you have to tell your politicians, I don't like where my money is paid. You have to campaign against where your money is spent. and bring more voices into educate people

so that it's not just a long voice saying I don't like the way my tax money is spent because I bet you many people in the United States if they knew too well what was happening and if they get the full idea, the full story about what's happening, whether in Gaza or other places, they want to be happy with how their money it spent. So how do we do our best to bridge this gap that exists between politicians and the people as well?

Because many people are not happy with that. So there are things once we begin thinking that the privilege we have for a reason and we need to be accountable for whatever God has given us. And to always, whether here or there, I mean, even believe me, even here in Palestine, we teach our children to think of others and we always remind ourselves that we are more blessed than many others. Believe it or not, I mean, as bad as it is here

because you have to be always thinking of other. That's part of being Christian. And again, don't do it to feel good about yourself. Do it to be a difference. Do it to make a difference in the world. Okay. Wow. Well, thank you, Mouther. I know you, you know, giving money is one way in which Christians can contribute.

And yes, I agree, I don't give money out of guilt. But I know some people might be asking the question, you know, well, maybe that's one way in which God is leading them to want to give. Is there, I know you're the director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice. Is that an organization that people feel so led that can contribute to or are there other? And that's, I mean, please visit our search for us, BIPJ. We have BIPJ. info with many information about situation here. Our goal is to educate, is to have conversations, is to show evangelicals how their theology is shaping the lives of others around the world

in a negative way. and how they can be a force for peace. It's part of our identity as children of God. That's what Jesus said in the beatitudes. So we're doing so much of that at the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice. The Shepherd Society, which is part of Bethlehem Bible College, is also very much engaged in supporting families in need, in development. We have a big program now in Gaza,

trying also to partner with the hospital here that is specialized in imputed body parts to reach to a number of children who need new body parts and so on. So we're also involved in that through the Shepard Society. So wherever you feel that these are two venues that you can give to.

Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice and the Shepard Society, Bethlehem Bible College. I'll include links in the show. notes. Thank you so much for being on Thealjean Rah and Merry Christmas to you and your family. And please do give my greetings and blessings to my brothers and sisters living in Palestine. I really appreciate you. Thank you. And despite everything, because of everything, we say Merry Christmas from Palestine to everyone listening to this. Oh, holy night, the stars are brightly shining.

It is the night of our dear Savior's birth. Long lay the world in sin and error pining till he appeared and the soul found its worth a thrill of hope the weary world rejoices For yonder breaks A new and glorious morn

Fall on your knee Oh hear the angel voices On night Oh night divine all night when Christ was born truly

he taught us to love one another his law His love and his gospel is peace. Chains shall he break for the slaves. Our brother, and in his name all oppression shall cease. joy in grateful chorus raise we let all within us prays his holy name christ is the lord oh praise his name for forever

His power and glory ever more proclaim his power and glory memory ever more

more more Oh fall fall on your knees. voices oh night divine

all night when Christ was born all night divine night, oh night divine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,