Theology in the Raw - Controversial Topics in a Time of Outrage and Fear with Dr. Gavin Ortlund

Episode Date: June 1, 2026

Order your free copy of When Faith is Forbidden: www.vom.org/titr Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a pastor, author, speaker, and apologist for the Christian faith. He serves as President of Truth Unites, Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville, and Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary. Gavin has a Ph.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary in historical theology, and an M.Div from Covenant Theological Seminary. He is the author of nine books, including his forthcoming book: Why Christianity Makes Sense: A Book About Jesus, the Mysteries of the World, and the Longings in Your Heart.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

humility in the process of theology. Man, we need a little more of that. We need that so much. I don't want to accommodate to the spirit of the age. I want to fear God rather than man. Another part of that is I don't want to offend Christ by having a lack of charity for his people and by dividing his body. And so that humility will bulwark us against different kinds of errors.

Hey, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rah. My guest today is Dr. Gavin Ort. who is a theologian, apologist, author, and founder and president of Truth Unites, a ministry focused on promoting gospel assurance through theological depth. Gavin holds a PhD in historical theology from Fuller Theological Seminary and serves as theologian and residence at Emmanuel Nashville, and he's a visiting professor of historical theology at Phoenix Seminary. Gavin is the author of several books, including the forthcoming book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, a book about Jesus,

The Mysteries of the World, and The Longestown. of Your Heart, which releases in September 2026. We recorded this episode in person in Franklin, Tennessee, which was absolutely fantastic being in person. But we did have some tech issues during the last 20 minutes or so. We did our best to clean it up, but you'll notice a change in the audio quality. Okay. So just pretend like you're listening to an old boom box or a radio, and it will be awesome. It'll be an awesome experience. So without further ado, please welcome back to the show, the one and only, Dr. Gavin Orland. Gavin, thanks for being a guest on the Algeria.

This is the second time, I think, right? Yeah, we were just trying to remember. Have we met in person? We've definitely talked a lot. It's great to be back. Such a weird world where you're like, I don't know if you've ever hung out in person. I feel like I have, but I feel like we have too. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm excited to talk to you because you're one of the few people. I feel like we live in similar spaces. We deal with, we like to wrestle with topics that some might consider controversial. And when I see how you do it, I honestly am like, man, I want to, like I want to do it that way. Like you model, I think, a really healthy balance of being clear, thorough in your research, clear with your convictions, but also do so in a winsome tone. and you don't seem bothered by, you know, hanging out with people or dialogue on people that might disagree with you on something, you know?

I just, the recent held debate you did, I don't even call the debate. It was a dialogue with Chris Date and Paul Copan and I forgot the guy from... Dan Patterson. Yeah, he was brilliant. And Kurt Cameron hosts of that. You guys, it was almost too kind.

Honestly, it was like an hour of, like, kindness, which is, which is, the very opposite of our world today, but it was like, man, this, the tone of that conversation was so, so good, you know? Yeah. I guess if you're going to air,

I'd rather air in that direction. Yeah. But I agree. It's like we could have gone, we could have elongated another hour on working through the disagreements. But things are so contentious that I'm always happy to,

I mean, if there's one thing we should be known for, if we're a follower of Jesus, it's that we love people, you know? Like, that should be clear, even if we're debating our disagreement. And so, yeah, that's a pretty core conviction of mine. Have you always been wired that way?

Like, it's a personality type? I mean, or did you try to cultivate that over the years? I'm not sure. There probably is personality involved in that. I always try to distinguish between personality and character. Because I think personality is God-given and it's not right or wrong. And I think different personalities have their own temptations. And I have mine.

And so a temptation for me could be, I'm so. so eager to be charitable that I refrain from being blunt when you need to be. And so I've had to think and just wrestle with what does the full character of Christ look like when you're having a disagreement with someone because Jesus was incredibly fierce. You know, when he meets real Phariseeism, for example, he does not back down. And so I've had to wrestle with that a lot of how, what does it look like to have integrity? And my wife has printed off 2 Timothy 2, some of those verses about, avoid foolish controversies and because they lead to quarrels but the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to all yes but even there there's the gently correcting yes and I think still correction yeah yeah I mean that that's the thing is integrity does not just mean being nice yes you have to be planted in the truth yes and not budging in the core convictions so that's that's the tricky balance there yeah I did I've wrestled the same question and I don't I don't, I guess it depends on who you talk to you. Some would say I'm too, I don't know,

maybe too, I don't think I'll say I'm aggressive, but like, oh, you're too, too dogmatic or something. And other people are like, oh, you're too, like, you know, you listen to too many opinions and, you know, but I have, I remember thinking a few years ago, like, just reading like Second Peter or two and Jude and, and, man, dude. And I was thinking like, well, when do we get our Jude on, you know, and because because there is so much of that, everybody's calling everybody a heretic for every little thing, and there's so much tribalism and fighting and just not modeling Jesus well that I try to not do that,

but then when do I get my Jude on, you know, and go after, you know, an issue. That would be legitimate heresy. I know that word's thrown around probably way too broadly these days, but yeah. Yeah. I've just been thinking lately about, Christ in Mark 2, I think it is, where it talks about how angry he gets with the Pharisees.

And there's some little phrase in there, something like, you know, grieved at their stubbornness. Or something like this. He's provoked. He's, he's, you know, he's not just disagreeing. He's upset. Feels it in his bones. Yeah, because the Pharisees, I think it has to do with a healing. And the Pharisees are opposing the healing.

Right. And so that's interesting. You say, okay, there's a little portrait. There's a little window into integrity. I think there must be a place for that. And yeah, I'm like you. It's a journey because this is where theological triage, something I talk about a lot. Yeah, explain what that is.

You coined that phrase, right? Well, no, no. It was before me. Al Muller talked about it and there's others. But I've, and I never thought I'd get into that. But I've found that to be, you know how it is. You go into your life and all of a sudden the Lord pulls you into a ministry. You wouldn't have anticipated, but it's just, there's just needs right in front of you.

and you say, this isn't what I would have chosen, but I need to study this to help people. And triage is so helpful. So the idea is ranking different issues. The Trinity is more important than the color of the carpet in your church. And so if you type in church split to Google, it'll give you suggested next terms. And one of them is, the first one is Calvinism.

Really? And the second one is color of carpet. I remember I read that, I thought, even though that just tells you what people are searching, for, it's like, still. That's wild. And you just mentioned the charges of heresy, how quick those are. But triage helps

because it also helps you see the first rank issues and say, you know, if someone is denying the fundamental tenets of the gospel, or if they're doing the kind of thing the Pharisees were doing in Mark II, I think Christ-likeness means courage, boldness, leaning in.

And there's a, I've seen that modeled by a few people where you see this courage and it's not a fleshly anger. Right. But it's so beautiful. And I want to spend the rest of my life trying to grow towards that, that beautiful courage, that Christ-like boldness that speaks up for the vulnerable. Yeah. It's hard in an online world. Does it mean you go searching the internet for everybody spouting genuine heresy and you blast them? You know, it's like it's, some people do that. Oh, man. Yeah. I think you've been a victim of that. But yeah, because I mean, in the New Testament context,

I mean, you're talking about people who are, you know, people who were involved in the house church in this city of 25 people. And now they went astray and they're leading people astray. And, you know, these are people you've spent time with face to face. They're in your community. Or I guess Paul maybe identifying people in different cities that are, you know, false teachers and going after them. But in our world today, it's just, it's most of the kind of heresy hunting or even, that sounds negative, the genuine calling out of genuine maybe heresy. It just seems like it's like a social media. It is.

It's like, you don't even know if the person's a bot or what. I've always felt that I want truth unites. And even the title, truth unites, is something I chose with this in mind. And that the title of my ministry is not truth at all costs. Or unity at all costs. Those two words balance each other. But just basically to have unites in the very ethos, that's what I aspire towards. is I want to build something.

I want it to feel constructive. I want it to feel like I'm not primarily tearing something down, but I'm primarily building something. Occasionally you have to speak against something, but man, if I ever veer off that, I should just stop, because I don't want to be another voice that's tearing down.

You do it so well. I mean, you have had some, I mean, I haven't consumed all your content, but when I can see, you have a really good balance of the, you know, most of what you do is constructive, is teaching is, you know, more focused on discipleship construction. But there's times when you need to address an issue. And I think you do it incredibly well. So I think if you only did one or the other, I think you need both.

But I think primarily it's helpful when you're primarily constructing. People that just all they do is just like going from this critique to that critique to this critique. I mean, I don't know. Just to me it just seems a little boring. And like, I don't know, maybe there's a place for that. So you mentioned, you know, primary issues. This is a question I've had for a long time. It's not so much what are the primary issues,

but what's the methodology we use to determine what is primary and what is not primary? And I see primary and not primary on a spectrum. So like, not like, here's one bucket, primary, here's another bucket. This is secondary. but more like more secondary, more primary, because there's some things that I don't think fit neatly in each bucket. Anyway, but my biggest question, though,

is what's the methodology we used to determine that? And of course, people say, well, the creeds, you know, Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, but even those, and you're the historian, so you tell me, I mean, those are still situational. They were addressing the questions, response to the questions of that day. Because people will say, there's no statement on marriage in there. I'm like, yeah, they didn't need to be.

even the heretics weren't questioning the structure of marriage, you know? Right. So I don't think we can just rely on just those statements to determine first-tier issues. I think that's maybe at least that. Right. But is it a first-tier issue that Christ preached to the spirits in Hades? Yeah. In the Apostles Creed, is that like if you don't believe that, you're a, you're not, you're

outside the bounds of orthodoxy. Most Christians don't even. Yeah, we just want to study that. I'm just happy if they're thinking about it, right? It's like, he descended into hell. You know, read Matthew Emerson's book on that and think about it. That's a first step. Like, be aware that it says that.

Right. But, no, I agree with you about the spectrum. I mean, this is not like two neat categories. And even, you know, in my book on this, I have four buckets. So it'd be primary, secondary, tertiary. And then I say the fourth rank things just don't matter at all. The carpet. Yeah, the carpet.

Yeah. And so the difference between second rank and third rank, is one way, this is one way of thinking it through, is second rank, you'd separate from a church over it. It might be like a denominational distinctive, but you still see the other side as Christian. Baptism, maybe Eucharist, or, yeah. And some of those are just practical issues. You just, you have to do it one way or the other, or you have to make a decision of how you're going to accommodate for both. And then the third rank issues still matter, but you can be a part of the same church. But even those four buckets, what I've had to realize is there's so many

issues where it's like a 1.5 or like a 2.3, you know, and then it can depend upon the context you're in. And there's all kinds of factors. Real life is complicated. But I'm just happy if people are thinking about this. Because what I've discovered is most Christians tend to be sort of instinctive in how we do triage. And it's what's been in my background. What have I seen? And unfortunately, since I'm often defending Protestants, I like to also, you know, wherever I can call my fellow evangelicals to something better to say where we have weaknesses, a lot of evangelicals are pretty ignorant of church history. And so we approach things without any sense of bandwidth of what's been on the table before. And people are shocked. You know, like I'll give an example. People will sometimes

use the heresy word to describe something, and they're just, you know, again, here's the not, not shying away from bluntness, okay? They are sheerly ignorant of the fact that fundamentalists held that view 100 years ago. And, and... Give me an example. Yeah, so I've talked about this, you know, with some of my views on creation and things like this. People today will say you're a heretic if you're not a young, or they'll say you're a liberal. If you're not a young earth creationist, you're a liberal. And, you know, without I would wanting to be snarky or anything like that. I just need to, from a pastoral burden,

I need to explain to people that it's not just a few old earth people who snuck in into the balcony a hundred years ago. It was the leaders, the frontline leaders of conservative Christianity against liberalism who were old earth, like B.B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, J. Gresham-Machian, Charles Spurgeon, all older. That wasn't really, was that an issue back in that, in the late 1980s?

1800s or whatever? What I've argued is in the 1960s, you really get Young Earth creationism proper in the sense that it's this kind of sociological movement where it starts to become a sort of safety issue. Because if you go back earlier, like even the Schofield reference Bible, okay, that's not Young Earth.

Well, isn't it post the Scumps Monkey Trial? Scopes Monkey Trial? Is that what it was? Yeah, I think that's one of several episodes culturally where it sort of takes on, it starts to take on this greater prominence. Prior to that, I mean, yeah, I think, I mean, even like R.A. Tori edited a book called The Fundamentals.

Yeah. And this has, you know, it's a lot of fundamentalist authors. And it's, it's a good portion our young earth, a good portion of our old earth. And it didn't create the sense of friction. I'm not trying to offend all of our Young Earth viewers, but it's just one example. I don't think there's too many listening. Okay. But there are some. They're sorry. I have a wide audience. I mean, I have nothing against people holding that view. If that's where the God leads them in their convictions, that's not going to cause a problem for me. for having the Lord's supper with them.

Right. But I just think it's an example of where we do triage a bit impulsively, and we've kind of lost a sense of lower-k-C Catholicity. And so a big part of my ministry I've been pulled into

is church history to inform unity. Love that. And I just think it's important. You know, you mentioned, like, the descent of Christ to the dead. You know, that's an example. That was pretty lower-k-C Catholic

for a long time. And now, and then you see the flip where evangelicals often, you know, it's like we're going against the grain without realizing it. And that's where I think we need more church history knowledge. I could go on about this a long time. So going back to my question, how do we determine what's primary, what's secondary? Okay, so in my book, I go through four questions. Sorry, I haven't read your book.

No, no, no, it's fine. No, no, no, it's totally fine. Yeah, and I mean, these are just starting questions to get us thinking about it, not an exhaust. But I talk about the clarity of scripture on something. the witness of church history. But, well, quick, that seems so subjective, clarity of scripture, because people say Young Earth is super clear.

You know, like, I mean... I think it's a subject of disagreement. I don't know that it's... I mean, subjective means it's just... I think it's objective. It's just people disagree about it. Because I would say the meaning of the text is objective, and then there's subjective disagreements about it.

I know what you're saying, though. Maybe your second point, though, is related to it. The clarity of... and then what was the second point? Sorry, I cut you off. No, that's fine. Church history, the witness of church history, the relation to the gospel,

and then the practical effect upon the church. So ecclesiology questions. And you're right, though, that those four questions don't, you don't just put in the question, turn the crank, and out comes the answer. You have to think.

And I don't think, I don't think there's any shortcut for just wrestling. I mean, there's issues of triage. I've been really. wrestling with them for 20 years. So I'm not trying to act like this is simple. Yeah. But at least, you know, wrestling is better than acting and ignorance and just impulsively declaring what is heresy or something like that. At least being on the journey of wrestling, then at least you've started the process. But yeah, but no, it's not going to be easy. And we're going to have disagreements about

triage. I have people who email me and, you know, all the time. And they say, well, I would, close friends of mine who will have a different judgment about. how to rank something. Yeah. But better to have disagreements in the process of ranking issues than just to not even rank them at all. Yeah. So have you ever been hanging out with your dad? And out of the blue, he tells you the most incredible or insane stories about his childhood, you know, something that blows your mind because you've known him your whole life. And somehow it's just never come up. This Father's Day,

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Yeah. Because like the creeds, you just can't punt to the creeds. Like, there's stuff not in the creeds that are primary, and it is contextual. Those weren't written in the vacuum. And we have a different context today that might require, you know, if would we rewrite Nicaea in the Apostles Creed exactly

the same way today to address the issues that the church is facing? Hopefully we would conclude all that, but there might be other things we'd address. And even the, you know, people say it's, well, if it's a gospel issue, I'm like, okay, let's stop there. What in the world is like, yeah, that seems really subjective. And here I, here I also want to say, what methodology are you using to determine what's a gospel issue? Are you doing a word study on Ewan Galion and Ewan Gilzomi? Are you looking at early apostolic preaching of the cross in the book of Acts? If you do that, you hardly even have, like, penal substitution. I mean, it's all resurrection, and the death of Jesus is kind of like, you killed him. You know, it wasn't, there's hardly an atonement in the early apostolic preaching. Do you go to gospel summary statements, 1st Corinthians 13? Maybe that would get as closer what's a gospel issue. Or do you go to like the roots of Eongelion in second Isaiah, a lot of part of Isaiah,

where that term is formed about the kingship of Christ and the restoration of Israel and the fulfilling the promises of the son of David, you know, like if you preach, to gospel and you don't mention God fulfilling his commitment to raise a seed of Eve through the line of Abraham, ultimately David, to crush the head of the snake. If you don't say that, are you departing from the gospel? Because most people, I know, don't preach a gospel about

God is restoring his covenant to Abraham! And he's inviting you to be part of that family regardless of ethnicity. Nobody really says that, but one could say it. That's the gospel, you know? Right. Yeah. The phrase, it's a gospel issue is an ambiguous phrase. Yes.

That could mean so many different things. And I agree with you about the creeds are not sufficient to describe orthodoxy. People say this. And my first question is always which creeds? Yeah, right. Do you include the Athanasian, which is one of the three typically called ecumenical creeds, apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian. And then you've got things even in the Nicene Creed, where there's disagreements about the filiocque clause and that's addition.

those are not as simple as people think. And like you say, think of all the ethical issues that were assumed at that time that everybody agreed on. Right. And yet today, you could say, oh, well, I affirm the creeds and therefore I don't have to abide by that ethical issue or something like that. I think there's some issues that are clearer than others. Sure. So like, you know, just just making that basic point starts us off to say, so I've made the argument when you have a particular teaching, identified as heresy in the New Testament. That's helpful. So if you got 1st Corinthians 15,

if Christ is not raised from the dead, then our faith is futile. Okay, that gives us some traction there about the importance of Christ's resurrection. When Paul categorizes the teaching of Hymenaeus, that the second coming has already happened. Okay. And he says, they've wandered from the faith. That's significant. And so I've made the case, you know, I use the H word heresy for full preterism. and I've got, you know. Oh, there is no like second coming to Christ? Well, they think it's already happened. And this is the whole movement.

I have a whole video on this. It's like, yeah, they think we're in the new heavens and the new earth. Full preterism. So, so preterism meaning having to do with the past. Right, right. And full meaning so in 70 AD, the destruction of Jerusalem, that is the second coming. The final resurrection is a spiritual one. And I don't want to be unfair to them.

I'm sure they'd maybe phrase it a little differently. Yeah. And I have a video on that. It seems so counterintuitive to us, right? But that actually is a growing. So I use the H word for that. Because, I mean, look at my third question, logical relation to the gospel.

Man, a view like that just vitiates our hope. If this is as good as it gets. And if there's no future resurrection. So I have a video on the end times where I say, you know, you have to believe in like a final resurrection from 1st, Corinthians 15. Yeah. So there's something.

But I just want to underscore your point. I think you're right that it's complicated and that people need to have a, I mean, if I, one simple point won't be controversial, but it's helpful to emphasize humility in the process of theology. Oh, man. We need a little more of that. We need that so much. In Isaiah 66, it says fear and the one who trembles at my word. Like if we would do these triage questions with a spirit of fear.

and trembling and saying, and that, so I, you know, against the, the liberal errors, I don't want to accommodate to the spirit of the age. I want to fear God rather than man. That's one part of that. Another part of that is I don't want to offend Christ by having a lack of charity for his people. Right. And by dividing his body. And so that humility will bulwark us against different kinds of errors. And I just, I just think that's a simple point that's so pastorally urgent right now. now just to have humility as we think through theology and as we do triage. Why is that not seem to be very popular? I mean, what's the, do you feel like we are getting more and more divisive? Is it just all social media stuff? Is it in real church communities? Is it worse now than it was five, 10 years

ago? I'm curious for your thoughts on this. My sense is yes. My sense is we are getting more divisive and that social media is a factor. And I just, I, you know, Since I got on YouTube six years ago now, I feel like I've gotten a master's degree in sociology because it's like, wow, there's, I mean, so many times I have been so perplexed and just said, Lord, I need wisdom. You know, I'm interacting with people in ways where I'm not sure what to think. I'm not sure what's coming at me. Sometimes it's been my fault. You know, I said something and I was not aware how it would be received because I was not. The internet brings you into contact with all kinds of people. And it's a learning experience.

And so you're saying, wow, okay. So, yeah, so one of the things I've learned about is the psychology of disagreement and how human beings, there are certain things we're not very good at in terms of how to do disagreement in a godly way. We tend to be very tribal. And I think the algorithms are praying on us. And I think they're accelerating that. And I'm very concerned about that.

I think we all see it. The problem is, what do we do about it? Yes. Yeah, I've been talking to a lot of people about this. We're all saying the same thing, that the algorithms feed off of fear and anger. And the more it can get you scared and angry, the more it's going to send you to get you more scared and angry.

And I think I've never heard anybody when I talk about this, say, well, I never thought about it. It's like, yeah, I kind of know when I start clicking on, you know, Ben Shapiro owning the lives or Candaceone. You know, like you're, you know, we're going to get more and more and more. And all of a sudden, we're just in this, like, rage, you know, angry at the enemy, you know, whatever other political side you're angry at, you know. Yeah, because it could be the liberals getting more and more angry at the conservatives too.

Oh, 100%. It's this intensification in both directions. The, uh, not the, and we don't need to get into this, but I think the Charlie Kirk assassination brought this out because, and there's a, um, a guy, I'm actually interviewing him after this. he has his his his handle is the nerdy Christian and he does these great videos that you would love it you would love his stuff on on Instagram normally I'm not like into like social media influencers but he's really thoughtful and just great posture really wise but he did a video talking about the two Charlie Kirk's that people believe and he said if your feed is filled with this kind of Charlie Kirk you're going to think well if him and he plays a several videos of Kirk being like gracious and like reaching out to people and somebody disagreeing and him saying that you know that's a really good point so here's actually what I'm trying to say and the guy's like okay I can see that he's like you know what thank you

for yeah it's so gracious and then and then here's the other Charlie Kirk and he's being kind of belligerent he's like mocking the death of gossens and stuff and like all this stuff and like these are if you're only getting one of these and most people are only getting one of them. You're going to have a very certain view of this person and somebody else is going to have a very completely different. And so in the wake of the assassination, people were like, you know, he was a prophet martyr model Christian, you know, other people like he was, you know, belligerent, angry, you know, and it's all algorithmically control. Right. One thing I've been thinking about is, and the part of the role for humility can be for me to recognize I'm being manipulated without

realizing it. It's not just the people on the other side getting affected by social media. Because you see this right? It's like, oh, those people over there, they're getting affected by social media. They're becoming radicals because of social media. And it's like, well, that very othering right there. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so we got to, so I try to do them myself and say, you know what? I'm, I have blind spots. And I, there's things I just don't see. Now you add on AI. Oh, my gosh. In 10 years, where is it going to be? Because now we're going to have, Now you're going to get not only algorithmically tailored videos of people, but fake videos. That scares me.

And then just other, you know, more misinformation. The only thing I know to keep saying to people is, and I have a real heart for Gen Z. I love Gen Z. I just love this generation. And I want to be a friend to them. So I keep saying to them, you know, I think we have a real loneliness challenge in our culture. And I keep saying, let social media compliment your real deep. embodied friendships and lean into, and I have to do it, and I'm 42. And I have to do it.

I have to like really lean in to my friends in real life and just have lots of time like a C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, you know, smoking pipes and talking over a pint and that kind of stuff. Lots of that. And that is a bulwarker. But if our whole society loses that, we're more susceptible to the manipulations of the internet. What have you, so you said you've been, doing your YouTube channel for like, you said, five and a half years? Yep. And it's big now. Is this your full, is this your full-time job ministry?

Truth United is my full-time job. And then I have smaller roles at my church and at Phoenix Seminary. Those are both kind of on the side. So it's kind of a great, God's been so good to me. I get to do what I love. And then I get local church and academic outlets, too, to supplement it. Did you ever think you'd be a YouTube? It's so weird to me.

I remember the first time I heard the word YouTuber. And I was like, what is that? You mean, and no, I never. I'm not the type, you know, I'm not really into social media. You're so good at it. Dude, the way you do YouTube, it's... I don't know what I'm doing. I just, all I know is try to answer the questions people are asking in a spirit of love.

And that's all I, that's the North Star. Yeah. But it's kind of fun. I do really enjoy it. That's the thing is, uh, sometimes I can get overly negative about social media. And I do, you know, it is kind of human and okay to also admit, this is kind of fun. Yeah. And, you know, like, it's really cool to have conversations.

I've gotten what I never expected into, you know, Protestant and Catholic and Orthodox stuff. It's really fun. You know, the friends I've made and just the things I've learned and the way I've been challenged by that and the way my respect for other views has grown in various ways and so forth. So, yeah. What have you learned over the years, having just kind of wandered into this area now having a pretty large platform? The biggest thing. So there's a phrase that I come back to over and over, and it's related to 2nd Timothy 2. And it's tune out the noise and meet needs. And of course, that's what I'm aspiring to do. I'm not saying I do it well. But I have to remember that so much. So something will blow up and somebody, there's a rebuttal video. And the rebuttal video is kind of unfair. And there's a way I could point out that it's unfair. Rebuttal to something you said. Yeah.

Yeah. And I could, so I could, so then I'm thinking, you know, so-and-so said this, that's not right. And in my mind, you know, the psychology of disagreement is working on me. And maybe I'm a little annoyed at times. And I'm thinking, that's not right. You know, he got it wrong. And then I have to stop and say, who cares? You know, who cares?

Like, is it really a big deal? Sometimes it can be, I'm not saying we should never respond to criticism. Yes. But so much of the time, it's not really related to my mission. Right. And so I have to come back to say, tune out the noise. Just forget about it. Go on a bike ride and get outside and forget about it.

And then come back and speak to that anxious 19-year-old young man who's out there. He doesn't care if Gavin is right or wrong in this particular dispute. He needs the gospel. He needs to know the love of Christ. He needs to know Jesus loves you. No one's told him that. No, I mean, maybe he's heard that, but no one's really pressed it on his heart. And my passion in my life is that those 19-year-old,

and others would experience the enchanting joy of the gospel to know God loves you. And there's hope. You know, I want to get the basics out there. And triage is just a tool to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you handle, yeah, you kind of mentioned it, like being misrepresented or being attacked? Because most criticism, or I guess, I don't want to put words in your mouth, is most of the

criticism you might receive include some misrepresentation. They're not actually taking exactly what you said, what you meant, and offering a critical, thoughtful response countering your arguments. Have you ever had that happen? It does. No, there's been good criticisms. There's been good, good ones. There's a lot of bad ones for sure. I mean, the truth is I'm really blessed and I feel spoiled because I have I'm my life is so blessed I've such a I've such a God's been so kind to me so and the last thing I ever want to do is complain because even most of my critics are not evil people they're they're probably mostly good people that's been one of the things that's so interesting to learn about in the sociology of disagreement is why is it that good people get

annoyed with each other when they're disagreeing and they're good faith and yet each side starts to suspect the other side is, oh, they're not acting in good faith. After five years goes by, why does that happen so much? And I'm interested in that because I want to preserve, you know, like with my Catholic friends. A lot of these are great people. Yeah. I really respect them. And it's hard. It's sad that there's an attrition effect over time. Five years goes by doing Protestant apologetics and the number of Catholics I had a great relationship with when I started, because when I went into it, I was like, I'm going to have an open heart. I'm going to say yes to every dialogue. I'm going to try to maintain great relationships if I can,

because I know all the toxic tendencies of social media. And over time, sometimes that is possible. Other times there's a sadly a wearing away of that good relationship. And someone starts to assume calling you a liar and this kind of thing. And you're like, man, that's a bummer. I wouldn't have wanted that. So you're trying to study that. But I don't feel like a victim.

I mean, because a lot of people get things way worse than me. I'm blessed. People are actually pretty nice to me for the most part, so I don't have any complaints. But I have had to learn to answer your question, how do I manage criticism? Yeah. And that's an ongoing thing. And it is so tricky because there is a place for defense in 2 Corinthians. You see Paul.

Right. And yet even Paul has a sort of tortured tone in that letter. He's kind of saying, I'm talking like a madman, and he feels uncomfortable with defending himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got hit pretty hard by, was it Meg, Meg Basham? Yeah. And I think I just saw, I watched your response to it. What was that like?

What was it just, what was it on? Yeah, what was it just of that? Yeah, I put out a video on climate change several years prior. Just, you know, I think climate change is a real issue that Christians need to think about. And those, my convictions really haven't changed on that at all. And she criticized that video in her book, Shepherds for sale. And yeah, I thought it was just not a good criticism. And in some cases, just, you know, basic factual issues where, you know, the difference

between shooting from the hip in how you form a view versus accepting the scientific consensus about climate change, well, those are pretty clearly different things. Yeah, right, right. So when someone is having a published book and they're saying, Ortland says, and using quotation marks, and they're switching from one to the other.

Oh, really? It was actually just... It's pretty blatant. And so, but my concern in putting out the video was not just me, is that that kind of criticism I don't think is helpful. Yeah. So, and then, yeah, pretty quickly into that process.

So then there was a big blowup on X about it. Okay. And pretty quickly I kind of realized I don't think it's productive. Did you ever have a dialogue with her or just back- Privately we did. Oh, you did? How was that? It went well, yeah, yeah, well.

I mean, I don't have any negative feelings toward her at a personal level. I'm concerned about what she does. I don't think her way of interacting with other Christians is helpful. I think it's just what I've said in the past about that. It was a better off-offline practice? Yeah, that's what I always. I've done that probably a dozen, maybe two dozen times where you just realize, okay, going back and forth publicly is not going to serve the body of Christ. For whatever reason it may be. And so you try

to make progress in other ways. But this goes back to what I said earlier. Sometimes you just realize you can't make progress in something. And there are certain people where, yeah, if you lose a sense, If a general rule of thumb for me is if factual issues are not conceded, it's hard to make progress on the interpretation of facts. Right. And I've done that with some other critics from the non-protestant traditions, too. If they're giving criticisms and there's, it's just a matter of the transcript. It's like, here's what was said. Right.

Here's how it was reported. They're verifiably different. And even if that isn't conceded, then at a certain point you realize it's going to be hard to make any progress on more complicated issues. Because I think goodwill and trust is pretty important for making progress in a disagreement. So there's sometimes you still have to respond even if there isn't goodwill. But as a general rule, I don't want to focus on that. I want to just give my energies to what's going to actually serve the kingdom of God. Have you had any other blowups where people were going out for pretty hard?

Weekly. Really? That one was especially visible. Okay. But yeah, no, I mean, it's an ongoing thing. I mean, that's a challenging thing. Because that was actually in a book. Right.

So the other ones are probably just like somebody online saying something or misrepresenting. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, books are more official and more serious for sure. Yeah, but I mean, it's doing Protestant stuff. There's always recurrent. I'm kind of a target, I think, for those other traditions. But again, most of those people are really nice people.

Yeah, it seems like that. But, yeah, no, on YouTube, there's definitely people who, you know, because I'm defending Protestantism, they get upset. Yeah, I mean, it's an ongoing thing. That's where the learning curve is of just, what does it look like to weather that in a godly way? Right. Across the world, Christians are paying a high price

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the entire conference, including all the breakouts, are now available on demand. Just head over to TheologyNrod.com to check it out. We had some amazing conversations and talks about AI, immigration, mental health, and a couple different dialogical debates on the historical reliability of the Bible and another one on Christians and War.

The speakers include Sandy Richter, Piedens, Shane Claiborne, Paul Coupan, Dan Allender, Chenway Williams, Rick Heels, and many others. My favorite part of the conference, I mean, it had to be all the dialogues and Q&A portions of each session where speakers had to go off script and address some challenging questions in the moment. These raw conversations are always the best. Again, if I want to get access to the conference, check it out, theology in the raw.com. I went to my first mass last Christmas. Never been a mass before. Yeah, yeah.

What was it like? it was midnight mass I was super tired it was interesting I mean there was things I you know appreciated

and other things that I was just didn't you know I don't know yeah the priest was you gave a great message

actually this is how Protestant I am I'm like I don't know do they I didn't know they preach termines

and yeah I thought it's all you give a great you know 15 minute message on the birth of Christ

was very thoughtful well informed with like the political situation of Christ's birth. Very adamant about the Eucharist being the literal. I mean, he emphasized that a lot. And I'm pretty sure I have to think back.

I was kind of tired. But I don't think only those who can take it must be right Catholic and in good standing or something like that. Is that, did I hear that correctly? Like I couldn't take communion. Right, right. That's correct, yeah. I could have, but I would have been not right.

Right, right. They, yeah, they don't. That really, I was like, I just can't. I just don't see that in the New Testament, you know. There's a lot of things where I'm like, oh, that's interesting. I don't see it in the Bible. It's fine if they do that, but if it's kind of dogma, then I'm like, that is the biggest thinking point, right?

Like, there are certain things that are dogma in the Catholic Church that are hard to justify from scripture. That's one of my biggest concerns. I mean, as I got into this, I was not, I have a pretty acumenical heart just interpersonally. It's been really a joy to like build healthy friendships with Catholics and Orthodox Christians and speak together on like marriage or the pro-life cause or whatever it might be. But yeah, I mean, my concerns have kind of deepened in a way over the years of just why I'm thankful for Protestantism. And one of the reasons is what you said there is there's an exclusivism and then second of all in the major non-protistan alternatives and then second of all the requirement of what I call them accretions meaning slow buildups

throughout church history that don't have any apostolic foundation. Right. And not only would they not allow us to take the Lord's Supper, but they would say we never have taken it. In other words, our Lord's Supper is not a valid Eucharist. And they would say that for the Anglicans. And so it's, there is an exclusivism. And that's what is, that's why I, you know, I used to kind of feel like, I don't really want to just defend Protestantism. I want to defend Christianity. And then over the years, I've kind of realized, you know, it's okay to do both. And Protestantism is a noble thing to defend.

Because even if someone becomes a Christian, they immediately need to know which church do I go to. And that's pretty basic. And the differences go, go, go. deep and structural for Protestants and the other traditions. Because even what we say, like, okay, to become a Christian, here's what you have to believe. Well, there's a different set of doctrines in each case. So, you know, what I try to do is keep the heart of charity for other people, but also not budge on what I think is true and advocate for what I think is true. Yeah.

And I'm pretty, I'm settled as a Protestant, and I'm happy to sort of defend and commend those beliefs because I think they reposition us on the gospel itself as where the boundaries are drawn, which is not to say the world of Protestantism doesn't have all of its own challenges that we have to work at. That's, yeah, when I did, I did. There's, again, I mean, I said a couple critiques, but there's several things I appreciated. I mean, just the reverence, the seriousness. Everything was serious.

Everything was intentional. And that's something that I get kind of worn out with, like, low church, evangelical Protestant. It just sometimes seems so youth groupy, you know, and just cheapens kind of the grandeur of God, you know. And so I was like, oh, this feels really good, you know, being in a place where I just feel like everything was so serious, taking it so seriously. But that's more just kind of form, not content necessarily. I think a lot of Gen Z feels exactly like you do there. Is there actually kind of a big migration to Catholic and Orthodox?

I mean, I don't know how big. I don't want to exaggerate that. I can't hear people talk about it. I don't know if it's like, is it more than before or is it just always kind of? I think there's a slight update. I mean, in the entire U.S. population, I don't think it'd be a massive percentage. But I do think there's a recognizable trend. I just read an article in the New York Times this morning about how the Catholic Church in the U.S. is growing.

But globally, actually, I think it's still actually Protestantism is growing more than Catholicism globally. But there is among more intellectual people, young people, there is definitely a thirst for that. Yeah. And not just Catholic and Orthodox, but even like high church Protestant, which is interesting. So I think that's there. I just put out a video called why Gen Z loves church history and what to do about it. And it was fun. And what to do about it.

Like it's a problem. Well, the thing to do, I think, is to be more Protestant. Yeah. Go reclaim our own roots. Because the youth group feel that you just described is not like what a 17th century Protestant church would have felt like. Right. And so we've got a lot in our own traditions that actually are august and reverent and sacred.

You know, the Lord's Supper, for example. That's one thing I just keep coming back to you to try to encourage evangelicals. Go back to your own tradition. roots in the theology of the Lord's Supper. The Reformation re-centralized the Lord's Supper. In the late medieval West, you hardly ever got the Lord's Supper because you wouldn't get it in both kinds, both bread and wine, and you'd get it more infrequently.

And a lot of times it's being adored and paraded around, but you're not actually eating and drinking. And the reformers came along, and their thing was, no, we need to partake. We need to eat and drink regularly, both bread and wine. And they had a very, theology of real presence, with one exception. And so today we've kind of fallen away from that.

So I keep saying, you know, that's part of my thing is, again, it's like I want to defend Christianity and do general apologetics. Yeah. But then there's stuff like our theology of the Eucharist. Right. And that's kind of, it's all kind of flowing together for some people. Do you hold a real presence for you? What's your view?

I do. Yeah. I think I would, I have not studied it, but that makes more sense to me. Can you articulate that just quickly, in case somebody's. Yeah, yeah. The differences. Yeah, I, I, symbolic, right? Right, yeah, there's a couple different views of how we're feasting on Christ in the Lord's Supper. Are we, or is it just our subjective act of remembrance? Right. Or is there some sense in which we're actually participating in Christ and the benefits of his death? And the gospel itself is being represented to the believer in that moment. And I believe that. And I think, First Corinthians 1016, It is a participation, coinonia, with Christ.

And I, you know, that's, here's the thing that's so amazing people don't realize is that's even a historic Baptist view. I have a video, you know, you're talking about Spurgeon. He believed in real presence. Oh, interesting. The 17th century Baptists. I mean, it's all over there. It's in the Second London Baptist confession. It's Luther, too.

Oh, Luther, Calvin, all those. Yeah, yeah. Everybody, but Zingley. But today, so, yeah. So, yeah. So it's a historic Protestant view. And I just think lots of people in Gen Z, they're aching for that more sacred, demanding, rigorous experience.

They do not want to be pandered to. And so I just want to encourage Protestants to kind of reclaim our own theology on some of these things. I've got four Gen Z kids. Okay. And none of them, none of them like the kind of youth. groupie, like, they're just, like, rolling their eyes. Like, this is just not, like, stop it.

Stop telling me stupid jokes. You know, you open every sermon with a joke. Like, you know, it's just they, and they're like, challenge me. Like, I'm thinking about the problem of evil. Like, I'm thinking about like heavy, heavy, heavy issues. And just another kind of sermon on how to be a better Christian, five steps to blah, blah, blah, you know.

And I'm not saying, you know, sounds negative. But they, yeah, they're looking for depth of meaningfulness. And unless people say like, wow, they're your kids. And I'm sure you're like, woke them up every morning and read like, you know, scholarly literature to them. I'm like, I actually didn't do. My, our, our discipleship was very, very normal and, and hit and miss. And we, we did very, I've never, I didn't talk about, like, all this stuff I talk about publicly. Like, I hardly even talked about that at home.

Yeah. Like, my kids found out that I have some kind of like, like I'm known outside of. the home to other people like a couple years ago. Hey, I met somebody. They said they knew your name. Like, how did they know your name? I don't know. Maybe they, no.

So, yeah, all that to say. I think my kids are actually kind of representative of that hunger for meaning. Yeah. Do you think any of it has to do with this sense of exhaustion from the burden of self-creation? And what I mean by that is people are so tired of so many choices that they're confronted with. They see all these different perspectives on the internet. You're told, you know, you have to kind of be you and discover who you are. There's so much, it almost feels like a pressure put on people to kind of, I need to come up with my own identity.

And then when someone walks into a church building with stained glass windows and a sense of sacredness and you're reciting the Lord's prayer and then you say the Apostles' Creed and you're not being pandered to. And I think part of the relief of that experience is to say, oh, I don't have to invent this. Hey, friends, it's me again. Just a reminder, this is where the audio gets bad. So just pretend like the interview was recorded in a studio from like 1983 or something. Okay, enjoy. I mean, today, it's like you can literally change the personality of chat, GPT, to accommodate your preferences.

So it's like, you know, but the human soul knows that's not what I need. I don't need just to tailor reality to my every whim. I need to be challenged and called up into something out of myself. And creeds and historic standards are refreshing, I think, for people because it's like, this is not something of your own making. You have to come and submit to this religion, which people ache for that, I think. I think so. Go back to you, Chris.

I can't let this go because you're an expert. I've never bought at all. But how should it be done in the church setting of 300 plus 500? plus people, you know, I think it was obvious. In the first century, it was part of a meal, right? You have the house church, you know, 27 people are, you know, that's the church, and they have a meal together, and maybe there's some celebratory moment within there to lift a cup, break the bread, and remember Christ.

Whatever happened in the first century with the Eucharist, can't really perfectly replicate that in a church that is much bigger than that today. It seems hard, right? I agree. Is there like, if you could say this is, given our new church context, here's the best way to practice commuting. What are you curious? Yeah.

So my next video, it'll be out by the time people are listening to this, probably, hopefully. Lord willing is on what would a church service feel like in 150 AD? Second century church is house church for the most part. And the Lord's Supper was often embedded within a larger meal. And they're not always. And they start to dis-separate. And it was the center of the gap.

It was like the, right. Exactly, which is where I'm trying to challenge our evangelicals. just say, hey, let's not fall away from what's been pretty standard all throughout church history from the second century through the 19th. But I find it helpful to distinguish between the theology and then the accidental circumstances. And I actually am comfortable with there being variation in the circumstances because, so I wouldn't say here's the one right way for every culture in the world. I think it should have reverence and sacredness and joy.

And so we need to think about some common foundation points. But I remember reading about some Lutherans in a concentration camp secretly partaking of the Lord's supper. And it was circumstantially very different because, you know, the guards are over there and we have to kind of keep it under the wraps of what we're doing right now. And I remember thinking, you know what? Jesus is there with them. Yes. And maybe that, maybe what that looked like in that circumstance would be the richest experience. Any of them would have in their entire life of a Eucharistic fellowship with Christ.

So that's like an extreme example. But I think there's a place for different, you know, do you have to have golden bowls in which the bread is kept? No. You know, like, but if you do, is that wrong? No. You know, I think, but I just think there's room for variation on the circumstances with some common basic things that need to be there like sacredness. But then in the theology is where I want to encourage evangelicals to read Thomas Watson's book, The Lord's Supper, a short little book. Just go back to the Protestants, you know, read Peter Murder for Meagli.

One of the reformers on this are Thomas Cranmer on Lord's Supper. it's so rich. It's so rich. And the thing people need to understand is what when you like ask Jesus into your heart or when you're praying to Jesus, when you feel love for Jesus, when you're saying songs to Jesus, all of that. I mean, those basic feelings in a regenerated heart of love for Jesus. The Eucharist or the Lord's Supper is almost a sort of pinnacle moment of where you can experience them. Because what's happening there is you're saying, Jesus, thank you for dying on the cross for me. And I receive the benefits of your death afresh to my soul right now.

I just long for people to understand what a gift that is. Are there some, like, principally guided ways for taking in the Eucharist that aren't just preference. There are like these would be good things. Like, for example, I mean, start basic. Like, should it be bread and eerie recruits for wine? Should it be wine? You know, not great juice. Can it be a Pepsi and pizza, you know, you know?

Is it the individual, they hand out the cup, like at my church, it's the cup of the wafer, you know, all together. And it's kind of like in your own personal kind of silence, take it on your own. To me, I feel like that moves us in more of an individual direction. I think communion by definition is corporate. And so the more corporateness you could, you can try to do in a big setting, which is, you know, hard to do, but as much corporateness, togetherness as you can do would be good. I was at a brethren church in Scotland where I was studying. And what I loved about there, they would take a, it was a goblet, a nice, nice, heavy goblet with row wine.

And I think a loaf of bread and they'd pass around. One goblet. I wouldn't be at two going around, but you're drinking from the same cup. Yeah. And now the wipers, you know, they're doing nothing, you know. But even that, and if you're a germaphobe, you're kind of like, oh, my gosh, this is tough. But I mean, it's just that the symbol of unity around that one cup rather than everybody in visual cups, I thought, was, again, not mandated, but I thought that was an attempt

to get us back to kind of some of the more essence of what it is. A biblical anchor for what we're saying about this would be Paul's language about there being one loath. Yes. Which he uses to make a point about the unity of the body of price. and yeah, I'm very much, you know, I think there can be circumstantial considerations there in terms of, you know, how big is your church? It's going to be hard to have one literal loaf if you are at a megachurch. So you need to think about these things, right?

Right. And I think, you know, I want to go back to the New Testament and say, what is really clearly commanded? So the reformers were saying, you need to have bread and wine because Jesus very explicitly said, eat and drink. not just eat. So those things, I think, but in terms of the details of what it looks like to get that value of the corporate communal nature of this experience, I think, I think that can vary a little, but I think we need to wrestle with that, you know? How do we adequately capture what Paul is saying then that this isn't just a participation

in Christ? It's actually a recognition of all who are apart other members of his body. Yeah. And a big emphasis in the second century Eucharistic practice is peace-making. If you've quarreled, you make peace, you know, before you come together. And so, yeah, however we can recapture that, I just see it as a fun challenge to lay before evangelicals and say, hey, as a church, you know, maybe pastors watching this. Say, as a church, let's take seven years and study. And each year, seven years, it's kind of ambitious, but, you know, nobody doesn't.

years. Two years. I mean, I think in terms of long. Two months would be a lot. Yeah, for some terms of terms of this department it would be. I think in terms of long-term study projects. Because, you know, it might take you seven years before you really understand. Oh, that's what this really is.

Or this is how it was practiced in this kind in church history. And it was so, yeah, I mean, I just love to encourage evangelicals to kind of see this as an opportunity. Yeah. To go back. to go forward by going back, to retrieve the past. And so we meet needs for people today. Because it's like your kids and so many others,

my five kids, they're getting older. I'm like, I want them to love church. We all want our kids to love church. And I think we need to, we need to think about this. You know,

if there's that hunger for substance and rigor and depth, I have a pastoral obligation to meet healthy needs. You know, if my kid comes to me and says, I want a bowl of ice cream, I can say either yes or no. But if they say, I want a piece of bread, I'm going to say yes.

Because if they're just hungry for something healthy, similarly in the church. If our young people want a healthy Eucharistic experience, I think we have an obligation. Every time you gather, to me, seems like a no-brainer. I think the language there, as off, do this as often as you do it. That one, even there, having been hammered out in the triage conversations for years, I've learned to not put the gauntlet down unless, you know, so even there, I would not say there is one biblically mandated practice, but I certainly favor a weekly experience, and that seems like the most reasonable approach. But I don't, I wouldn't say that's the looking mandated. But it makes sense because the Eucharist for most of church history has been the pinnacle moment of the service, which is not the same. the preached word is not important. But like, you know, what I'm saying in my forthcoming video on the second century services,

it was fairly simple, but you had, God speaks to us, we respond. And the God speaking ducts, there's scripture reading and a sermon. And then the we respond is prayer and partaking with the Eucharist. And then it goes out into meeting the needs of the needy, the poor, those in prison. It really is those five things. And so because it's so simple, I kind of want to say to people, if we're not even doing those things. And that might be the most countercultural part of Justin's account for modern American Christians. Because what Justin at all, you know, it's very simple.

But what it does have is the fifth and conclusive element is you need to care for your brothers and sisters who are in need, you have material needs. And you also bring the Lord's Supper to those who were not present so they don't miss out on the Lord's Supper. I'm going to make a follow-up animated video on this topic, five minutes. Animated? Animated video. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I have a friend who helps me with the animation.

But they're fun to do, just like a five-minute little. I've done like six of them now, animated little videos. And on this one, the two words I want to emphasize are sacred and belonging. Because those are the two things in my heart. After reading Justin's account of a worship service in the second century, there was a sense of the sacred and there was a sense of belonging. And those are just the things. Gen Z. X. X. Flee, may they find it in the church, right? We don't want them to go on elsewhere feel like a sense of belonging. We want them to know in the fellowship of Christ is where those

needs can be fully met in your heart. Yeah. What about a question of the Eucharist? Yeah, yeah. Open to everybody or only for believers? I think the Lord's Supper is for believers only. And I say that that's clear and juster. So he has a summary of its first apology, 57, if anyone wants to looking up online. It's of the book's online. You go back to one chapter to 56 and he has this very clear teaching. It's only for those who've been baptized, not just a professional faith, but baptize. And then later in church history, you get a very clear, actually two distinct phases of the service, one for everybody. And then the catacumans and visitors are dismissed. And then you get the Lord's Supper. And the reason for that, so part of it, what you mentioned about

the meal, the, the, the, the, you can't. would not necessarily be the entire meal. So the Eucharist might be embedded within a meal context. Right. Could be before during a doctor. I mean. So when you have a love feast by Jude 12 talks about or a meal, there is a sensitivity to the outsider, but the rationale here is the principle of discerning the body of Christ.

And this is the sacredness of it is people are literally dying because of irreverence during the Lord's supper and Corinth because they're getting drunk. during the Lord's supper. And they're exploiting each other and it's factious. And so I want to have that sense of sacredness. And that would be a great example of where I think church history can inform us. Because that's been pretty standard of our church history, that this is a meal from a reform perspective,

they would say to experience Christ in the Eucharist is one aspect of our union of Christ. And so if you've not been united to Christ by faith, you're not yet in the position to experience that. Our practice at our church is we very clearly try to explain this is for Christians. But we try to honor everyone else. And what I used to say in Ohio is, if you're here today and you're not yet a follower of Jesus, I hope you know how honored we are that you're here. The best way for you to participate is to observe what's going on.

We would love to talk to you more and explain this. So I'm trying to word that in a way that doesn't make them feel embarrassed, it doesn't make them feel singled out. And that's, but. But positively, it can also say we are a family and there's certain things family members do that, you know, are reserved for family. Exactly. And I've had non-Christians who appreciate that.

Yeah. And they feel the sense of, wow, you know, so I don't ever want to compromise to try to meet someone where they're at because sometimes you find if you hold what is theologically commanded, you actually realize, oh, people have to want that. They actually want a sense of being challenged and a sense of boundaries and a sense of, and a sense of we're not just here to accommodate you. Like, we're going to hold to historic Christian teachings, even if they're offensive, even if they're difficult, if that whole thing of the relief of not having to invent

ourselves is like, we're going to be okay if we step on your toes at points. Like, if I was checking out another religion, and they did something that was like just for the practitioners of that religion. I wouldn't, how dare you? I'd be normal. Of course, I would assume that, you know? And I would want to know, like, hey, there are certain things I can't. I'm checking this out. I'm not part of your religion yet.

These are certain things I shouldn't be doing. Like, let me know. And I don't want to, you know, I think it's pretty rational. Yeah, I mean, and then what we can just to help our friends to understand is that it's fitting that there's going to be some experiences that are best experienced once you've surrendered your life to Christ. But the thing we can then say is you can do that. It's actually, what's amazing about Christianity is not how high the barrier is.

It's actually how the Lord has come down and made it so easy. All you have to do is repent and surrender your heart to him and follow him and express that to baptism. So, you know, it's not like we're setting all these barriers. It's like in the first century when they took off some of the Jewish. requirements. We're trying to make it easy on Pampal, but we don't want to, you know, be unclear about what the Lord does expect. Yeah. Cabby, before I let you go, tell us about you got a book coming out in September, right? Oh, yeah. It has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about, right? How to be on to your only, except maybe the hunger

in Gen Z for the gospel a little bit, but it, yeah, I've poured my art into this book. It's called Why Christianity Makes Sense. It's assuming no background. It actually is related to what we're talking about in the sense of my pastoral heart for Gen Z. Okay. It's a popular level book. I wrote... Like, did you get hand to somebody that's not familiar with Christianity? Exactly.

Really that. So no background. So the first section of the book is about why you should be curious about religion. All I'm trying to say at the front end is, hey, you know, religion is interesting. You should think about religion. And then for that point, I go all the way from there, up through Pascal's Wager on the last chapter, and then an appeal for why you should become a Christian. And it's, it was so fun to write it.

I tried to write it in the style of mere Christianity. Yeah. In terms of really accessible short chapters, you know, the introduction you can read in 30 seconds. Just a really easy. I tried to make it easy to get through. For Gen Z? Well, or not. I hope it's like the readability.

Like what kind of level is it? I mean, very popular level. Very easy to read. A high school student could read it. But I also go through arguments and so forth. Yeah, yeah. And it's not just for Gen Z, but the kind of emotional framing of it, I think, has Gen Z in mind. Okay.

And because I'm trying to say, basically, Christianity makes sense not only of the world that we live in, but of the deepest longings of your heart. Yeah. And if Christianity is true, it means joy. And it means a sense of that deep ache within your heart. The motif throughout the whole book is the ache. Yeah. And the ache is that sense in your heart for something transcendent, something more than what is in this world. And I'm trying to say, listen to that ache.

Don't distract yourself from it. That's the most important thing in your life. I'm trying to shepherd people to God toward Jesus. I need to check that out because I was looking for something to go through with my son. And all this stuff is just my son's a teenager, dude. He's not a big reader. He's a shark kid. But to sift, you know, somebody get you say, oh, you should go through like

J. Grasholmation with him. I'm like, you don't understand. You're like, you just need like a. you know, like a systematic theology. You just need some really just like conversational stuff just to kind of go through like, yeah, why be a Christian? So I couldn't find anything. So I started writing my own.

Like every week I'd write like some I thought it's like, you know, on this topic, that topic, you know? And kind of get into like, yeah, like, why do we believe the Bible, you know? And do you have to love church to be a Christian or like if you, just lots of just practical stuff like that? But I'm going to check out your book because I don't need to keep writing this. If you already wrote it, I'm sure you could. to do better from me. Oh, I, yeah. You're right, though, that there isn't as much as you'd expect.

Have a book like that, you know, just, in a way that's sensitive to the current cultural question. So I have chapters on slavery in the Bible, violence in the Bible, trying to explain things like that. But, yeah, sensitivity to the current objections, but then trying to be accessible and walk someone through. And what I'm trying to show is the beauty of the gospel as well as it's true. Yes, yes, that's good.

Gavin, dude, I can talk for you ever, but I know. I got let you go. Thanks so much for the conversation. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. Hope we can talk into.