Theology in the Raw - Does Archaeology Prove the Trustworthiness of the Bible? Dr. Todd Bolen

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Dr. Todd Bolen is professor of Biblical Studies at The Master's University (my alma mater) and the founder of BiblePlaces.com—one of the most comprehensive pictorial library of biblical sites. Todd was one of my all-time favorite professors in college and was one of my main inspirations for wanting to become a biblical scholar. Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Devon. My guest today is Dr. Todd Bullen, who is a professor of biblical studies at the Masters University in Southern California, which is my alma mater. And he's the founder of BiblePlaces.com, which is one of the most comprehensive pictorial libraries of biblical sites. You got to go check it out. It's got thousands and thousands and thousands of extremely high quality photos of all the biblical sites. Todd was one of my all-time favorite professors in college. And honestly, he was one of my main inspirations for even wanting to become a biblical scholar. I spent the fall of 1999 at the Israel Bible extension campus for the master's university, then called master's college. And Todd was one of my main professors there. We've, we've chit-chatted here and there over the years, but we, we

have not, this is the longest conversation I've had with them since probably shortly after 1999. So it was really, really good talking to them. We dig deep, okay. Deep into biblical archeology. And Todd is, is just an encyclopedia when it comes to this topic. So if you're into archeology, you'll love it. If you're not in the archeology, I hope you will be at the end of this episode. So please welcome to the show for the first time. The one and only Dr. Todd Boyd Todd bullet. Oh my gosh. It's been a minute. That's great to see you Preston. So apart from a few brief interactions here and there at conferences, it's been actually 26 years when I studied under you in fall of 1999 in Israel and you were my land and the Bible professor, which, you know, I've, there's a few professors out there, but the

land and Bible prof is the one who's in charge of touring us around and everything. So, do you... Okay, question. Do you remember my final paper that I wrote and the comments you left on it? I don't expect you to remember this, but I remember it vividly. I don't know. So that points out my real danger because I can just like write something. It might be like late at night and I'm just trying to get my papers finished, graded. And I write something and it like scars my student. Well, so as, as you might remember, I was a very eager and ambitious student, kind of

tended to overdo everything. And you asked for a 10 page paper and I turned in a 25 page paper on Hezekiah's campaign and looking at the geographical route and archaeology. And I don't remember, it was almost like combative. I don't know if I was like yelling and screaming at critics or whatever, but you wrote a lengthy, I think I got a 92. I think you gave me a 92. And you said, I apologize for getting this back to you so late, but I guess it makes up for your paper being

so long or something like that. And that was back when I thought length was just gonna get me a higher grade. You're like, no, I asked for 10 pages. You gave me 25. Like that's not, but anyway, no, you said it was, it was really good. Just it, you gave me 25. Like that's not, but anyway, no, you said it was, it was really good. Just it, you said you could imagine me banging

at my keyboard, like a really too aggressive rather than just doing sound research. But anyway, good to have you on the podcast. I've got several Todd Boland memories. I will say this and we can jump into our topic. I would not have, well, maybe that's too strong. You were a major motivating factor in me pursuing biblical scholarship. In fact, you even said, I'll paraphrase, when we're studying archaeology, that most of the top archaeologists aren't

believers or certainly aren't evangelical. And I said, well, why is that? And you just said, well, the ones that are evangelical just aren't doing the best scholarship. And that just, I was like, shouldn't evangelicals doing the best scholarship? And in that moment, I said, I want to be a capital E evangelical and capital S scholar and let my evangelical passion drive sound scholarship, you know. So anyway, you left your stamp on me. Pete Slauson Yeah, praise the Lord for all that you've done in all the years since. Jared Slauson So, archaeology, let's talk about archaeology. I know you say you're not a formal

archaeologist, but you've been involved in archaeology in so many ways. What got you into archaeology? Has this been a lifelong passion or...? Pete Well, you know, actually, yesterday, I was teaching a homeschool group who was another IBEX student who was leading it. She came the year after you did. And now her kids are in grade school and she asked me to come and talk about archaeology. And I showed a picture, actually several pictures there, of my very first archaeological excavation. So that's the answer, like how I got into it. And the answer was that semester I was studying in Israel, I was just an 18-year-old college

student studying in Jerusalem for a semester at the Jerusalem University College. And there was a class, you could take a one-unit class and go dig for a week at Bateshawn. And I'm like, well, why not? I'll sign up for that. And it was bacon hot. It was October, but it was like so insanely hot. But there was a cute girl in the square next to mine, so it kind of made up for it. But yeah, that was my first introduction to... I didn't marry that cute girl. So, you do a great job keeping up with the latest in archaeology, I mean, biblical archaeology in particular. I mean, you can start wherever you want, but can you, yeah, what are some of the latest findings or happenings currently happening right now in archaeology that you find most

interesting and exciting? Pete Yeah, there's a ton going on. And while I was living in Israel, so I, of course, was with you at the Israel Bible Extension for about, I was there 11 years. And during that time, I started kind of reporting, as it were, stories because I was on the ground and there were people in the States, and that's when blogs came into existence. So I started this blog and that kind of evolved with a little bit of time into being weekly roundups. So that's what I've been doing for however many years, summarizing the big stories of the week.

It's not only discoveries, it's also like if a new book comes out related to archaeology, or you know, an archaeologist dies, and it's even a little broader than archaeology, biblical history, geography, anything that kind of interests me. I figure if it interests me, then I'm going to put it on there, and maybe it'll interest someone else. But that's how I keep up because not living in Israel and not like wandering by, like one day I'm walking down the street in Jerusalem and there's a hole in the ground and I'm like,

wait a second, and I'm putting two and two together, like this is where the ancient Pula Siloam should be and there's a hole sitting there and I can see some manmade steps. And so I'm taking pictures and putting it on the blog. And so I can't do that now. Although I have friends who do. They, my daughter was just there studying.

Well, she was working with the students there for the last semester. And so she'll send me pictures and some other friends will send me some stuff. But consistently on the weekends, I'm collecting the bigger stories. And that keeps me fresh because I'm still leading bigger stories. And that keeps me fresh because I'm still leading trips to Israel. And so I need to like stay current and like what's going on. And when, you know, with a group, whatever we come across this, the latest thing,

I'm not like, oh, I have no clue what that is. Like, I'm trying to know something. And there's a ton going on. I mean, I, just before, you know, we hopped on here, I reviewed some of the discoveries in the last five years and make it easier because I, at the end of each year, I'll go and make a summary list.

So the top 10 discoveries and top 10 tourist stories or whatever sorts of things like that. And Jerusalem, I mean, that's like, we can spend the whole time just talking about Jerusalem because there's so much going on just there. Pete Slauson Still going on. I thought it was all done. Pete Sears You would think so because the place is covered with houses, right? Apartments and parking lots. But usually what will happen is somebody will wanna build something.

So to get a construction permit, they've gotta get an archeological excavation, at least an archeologist to come and say, hey, is there something here or not? And usually that means a salvage dig, which means just kind of a quicker, small scale, not a lot of funds or whatever, but just to say like, oh, there's nothing here

and now you can build. And quite a few times they actually never end up building. And maybe the most famous one, I don't know if this is, this was just after when you were studying there. And I don't remember how many times you've been back Preston but there was this parking lot right on the edge of the city of David and they had these grand plans for this tourist center and view from the rooftop and they started digging that around. I mean I know we were with a group of students in 2004, and it's still a big hole that they haven't built anything

there, no tourist center, nothing, because they just keep digging down and finding more amazing, amazing things. Structures or like just artifacts or like what are they finding there? They're finding everything. I mean, it's a pretty big hole. This one is, I mean, you know, is it 50 yards?

I'm bad at estimating 50 yards square. I mean, it's, so they found their remains from pretty much every period because it's on the Western slope of the city of Dave, just below the Temple Mount. So it's like totally strategic area, like you think in terms of like real estate value or whatever, like that's where you're gonna want

to be in ancient Jerusalem. And they're finding remains from, I mean, it's starting from the top, they've got some middle ages stuff, and then they've got Byzantine material. And then from the time of Jesus, and I was just reading about this in Jodi Magnus' new book on Jerusalem,

which is really good, she explains some of those discoveries, including the palace there of a queen. There was a queen in the time of Jesus living in the city of David. She's not mentioned in the New Testament, but Queen Elene of Adiabene, so that's the little kingdom of Adiabene,

it's like in Northern Iraq. And she moved to Jerusalem. And so they found part of that palace below that in the Hellenistic period, they found what they believe is part of the Acre, this fortress, and then below that, they have remains from the time of Hezekiah, and yeah, that artifacts too, and I don't know if I can remember off the top of my head,

but I mean, seals and various jewelry things, rings and precious stones and probably pretty much everything you can find they've probably found there because it's just such a central location. Pete Slauson Anything that would contribute to the historicity of David in particular? Because isn't there a lot of slim archaeological evidence for David? I know you have, I'm going to blanket all the things. But I was shocked. I remember when I was there, it was like we have not much from, just based on archaeology that would prove that David even existed. Right, yeah. So that's a hot topic. I mean, we could talk the whole time just about

that. So the paucity of data from the 10th century time of David and Solomon and like what's going on there. And so it's a complicated issue. I mean, if your specific question is, have they found something like there particularly related to David? I don't remember. In general, I mean, to kind of answer the short answer

to the longer question, I think there's some good reasons why they're not finding much from the time of David and a big part of it is lack of a destruction. So archaeologists, you know what the ancient peoples hated? Archaeologists loved, they love it when an invader comes and bulldozes the city, you know, figuratively, burns it down, and that seals remains. Now, still looters are gonna come and they're gonna plunder and take, you know, precious things away, but a lot of it's just gonna be left

and then however much time, decades or centuries later, when people rebuild, they're not gonna be, it's just gonna be building on top of the debris. But in the case of David and Solomon, the city was attacked, actually. This is kind of interesting. I never made this list, I should make this list of the number of times Jerusalem was attacked

in the time of Israel's kingdom. So from David's Solomon on down to Dosea and his sons, but it wasn't destroyed. So for example, Shishak attacked, but he didn't destroy, that was in the time of Rehoboam and Sennacherib and the Assyrian king. He attacked Judah and destroyed 46 cities,

but I don't even think, and this is a point that would be disputed, but I've studied, and my conclusion is, he didn't even lay siege to Jerusalem. He came knocking on the door, but everybody would agree, he didn't destroy it. So what you have then is 400ish years of Jerusalem without a destruction layer to preserve things. So, the city just is lived in, lived in, lived in, and things are kind of cleaned up rather than

buried and preserved. Pete So, we wouldn't, we wouldn't, the paucity of evidence would be expected when there's lack of destruction, at least it makes it a lot more difficult. David Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. On that note, and he said like, when there's a destruction, a burning of a city, it preserves the record much better. Can you give us an example of some

that people might be familiar with? I mean, Jericho comes to mind. What do we have there? Pete Yeah. Jericho is very interesting for a bunch of reasons. And it's also controversial. Jericho was destroyed a number of times. It's got a very long record of occupation there. And of course, the most famous destruction is that recorded in the book of Joshua. And yeah, I think there's evidence for that. The archaeologists actually agree on the destruction in the Late Bronze Age, in the Middle Bronze, Late Bronze, but they disagree on the exact dating. So that's why if, you know,

you read that we have evidence that Joshua destroyed Jericho, but then you read someone else who says, no, we don't. It's not about whether there was a destruction, it's just about whether or not the destruction was at the end of Late Bronze I or at the end of Middle Bronze II, and of course, it's a technical discussion. I'm convinced that the archaeology does confirm, does fit with what the Bible says in the time of Joshua, it was destroyed. So, when I was there in 1999, there was, if I, I'm going to go way back in my brain right now, there was Kathleen Kenyon, the British archaeologist, who was kind of the, one of

the main archaeologists that worked on Jericho in the mid-20th century, I think, and she's the one that dated it late, is that correct? I'm going to say 13th century? Yeah. She dated the destruction to the end of the Middle Bronze period, so something like 1550 BC. And then here's the key is that after that, she said there was an occupational gap. So no one's living there when according to the Bible, the Israelites invade and destroy the city that wasn't there. So, I mean, so it became, it was a myth.

Here's the, I mean, there's different approaches, but one approach would be to say that later Israelites, and by the way, everyone agrees that there were Israelites later, it's just a matter of accounting for their origins, but these Israelites later saw this mound, like we see today, the same mound of earth, this tell, and they invented an origin story for it.

It was originally this great city, and yet it must have been our ancient heroes who marched around it and make up a story and conquered. Of course, it doesn't explain certain things like why they would invent Aiken, who's a rascal, or even in the aftermath of that where Joshua's not consulting the Lord. I mean, there's just a lot of things

that don't mesh with some of these interpretations that try to explain how the events in the Bible happened without them actually happening. So was it Bryant Wood that dated it, that would match the early date of the Exodus? So put it in the, well, 1406, 1407, right, would be the destruction of Jericho according to biblical, the more conservative biblical dating is, are you convinced, apart from maybe you wanting or needing it to match the biblical record, just from an objective perspective, do you think that that

view has a lot of merit in terms of... I do. Yeah. I do. And I'm glad you said too that point about what we want, because this is really an issue for like me who believe the Bible is true and yet there's plenty of stories, books, people out there claiming things that they know are gonna appeal to guys like me but they're not based in fact. And so everybody has to be discerning all the time, right? But I would say kind of evangelicals who want to believe that there's confirmation of the Bible need to be especially discerning because of the hucksters, can I say? I mean, they're out

there and they're making good money off of selling hope to people who want to believe. And I don't, so I just completely reject any of that nonsense and say, I don't need that. I mean, I believe, I don't believe that, look, archeology doesn't have all the answers and it doesn't always confirm the Bible. And this, you know, you hear that a lot, like every discovery or whatever has proved the Bible,

that fails to take into account that archaeology is not only concrete facts coming out of the ground, but it's the interpretation of those facts. So, there's always going to be people who interpret the evidence differently, which means there's never going to be some unanimous position on that. Can you explain for our audience, like, how do people determine the date of a city? Like when Kathleen Kenyon said this city was destroyed in 1500s BC, like, how does she know that? And how confident can we be in those dates?

Yeah. So the two keys to archaeology and the dating is stratigraphy and pottery typology. So Kenyon was a master. And so I don't agree with Kenyon on some conclusions, but everybody would acknowledge the current field's indebtedness to her advances in stratigraphy. She was a very, very careful excavator,ator, giving detailed attention to the earth layers. So the earth layers are revealing the progression of time. So as people are living in this city and then it gets destroyed and then the city's built

on top of it and then that's destroyed. And so she's digging down through time and paying very careful attention with the bulk drawings that really clearly show the progress of history. Now, what the dating then comes from, the association of datable objects in those earth layers. You say, well, what datable objects do you have? Well, if you had coins, then those are very datable.

They're not perfect. There's some concerns, problems with coins, but the big problem for those dealing with Old Testament eras is there were no coins. I mean, coins were invented around 600 BC. So anything before that, including like we're talking about Jericho and Joshua's invasion, how does Kathleen Kenyon date Jericho to 1500 BC? And the answer is through pottery because in ancient times, potters followed certain styles, like things were in. And they were

in for decades or centuries. And archaeologists have, over the last century plus now, have developed a typology. So they understand like if it is this kind of juglet it has this kind of base or this kind of handle or rim or you know that that means it's from this era. So if any of our listeners or whatever been on an excavation they know that so much attention is given to collecting those pot sherds. Usually you don't find complete vessels occasionally, but so those pot sherds, and then they'll be washed. That's part of the thing you're volunteering for.

You're washing old pots and pans broken into pieces. And then the archeologists will read those sherds that in order to determine what era a certain section is from, a certain locus is dated to this section. So maybe I'll just tie it back in here to Jericho and did Joshua destroy it and what's this debate between Kathleen Kenyon and Bryant Wood? And the answer is, Bryant Wood is a pottery expert. He did his doctoral dissertation on late bronze pottery. And so he went through Kathleen Kenyon's reports and identified some significant flaws, both

of omission and commission. That is to say, there was some pottery that she found that wasn't included into her analysis, her datings. That is to say, there was pottery from the time leading up to the biblical dating of Joshua, and then there was other pottery that was missing. So that's really the key to being able to date something. And there is some debate, there's some errors.

So this brings us back to David. So one of the problems with dating David, I gave you, I mentioned one of them, but another one is the pottery styles in the 10th and 9th century seem to not change much. So archeologists will debate. Is this from the 10th century, or is it from the 9th century? And so, there's some archaeologists, for example, Israel Finkelstein, a long time

at Tel Aviv University, and he's going to down date things, and that fits with his own reconstruction of history. And so, there's nothing from David's time, because he's already, you know, shifted the date, as it were, everything down by, by a century. I love this stuff so much. My audience, I, are you guys hanging? I hope, I hope you are. This is, I just, I, I eat this up. So we might, there might be like four people listening at the end of this, but I don't

care. I'm just bringing back so many memories. There was an inscription though, right? At David's time, Isn't there a famous, what is that? What was it called? Blink on the name. So the Tell Dan inscription is probably what you're talking about. Tell Dan inscription, yeah. Yeah. Or it mentions King David, right? Right. So that's really helpful. I remember I was in grad school and had a class, this would have been early 93. And the professor said, I have it in my handwritten notes,

the archaeologists had never found any evidence that David lived. And then that summer, they were working at the city of Dan in the northern part of Israel, and they discovered this fragment that has written on it in old Hebrew writing, House of David. And now that doesn't prove everything the Bible says about David, so quick to note that,

but we have an inscription that's about 130 years after David dies that's mentioning his dynasty. And so that was really helpful, that discovery, in kind of putting to an end some of the discussion on the minimalist fringe that said that David was about as historical as King Arthur. Is house a dynastic title? Like that's not just some random person, David, in their physical

home. Like that's referring to, it's a royal kind of reference. It is. And yeah, so we see that in the Bible as well, like you went, David, with God's promise to David to raise up for him a house and clearly the context there is referring to his descendants. And there in that, the context of that inscription, it's very much, it's a royal inscription. It seems to have been written by the Aramean king, the enemy of Israel named Haseel, and he's boasting over, you know, I conquered, and he even names there the king of the northern kingdom, Jehoram, the name of the southern kingdom, Aaziah. The inscription is broken, and so, you know, there's things we don't know about it, but it's clear that

he's, you know, boasting over his great victory over the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Pete So, I know you, and I appreciate the fact that you don't need archaeology to confirm your faith, to even confirm your belief in the Bible. But what are some, what are the top one, two, or three discoveries that you've found that just, let's just say, indisputably or close to being indisputably verify something in the Bible historically. Yeah, so that's a long list. And I don't actually have a mental list. I mean, I'll, you know, those years in Israel, I was teaching courses in archaeology, Old Testament archaeology, New Testament archaeology, and not like the, you know, like the, here's the top 10, like off the

top of my head where I could kind of, I've made lists in the past, but just kind of thinking like off the cuff here, so I've just been talking about the Tell Dan inscription. So also at the city of Dan, I love this. I'm sure you remember when we visited Dan and we saw the high place there. And that's the very place that's mentioned in the Bible where Jeroboam, this first king of the Northern Kingdom, set up a golden calf, of course the golden calf is gone,

but just that location and there's remains of the altar and of the steps leading up to the platform and just to think like that's the place. And this was in use, we know from the Bible because it keeps repeating it. This king followed in the ways of Jeroboam and da da da da da for 200 years. So you can just think about all the different Israelites from the northern tribes who are traveling, the Bible says, even as far as Dan,

to worship an idol. And it's also a beautiful setting. So we always love visiting there because there's the largest spring that feeds the Jordan River comes out there. So there's this rushing river that's flowing by and it's just a great place to visit along with the archaeological discovery. Another one of my top discoveries is the Mesha Stele or sometimes it's called the Moabite stone. Oh yeah. And so here's what's different about this one.

It's intact almost. Well, because here's the sad thing is so most of these inscriptions that they find are not complete like the Tel Dan inscription. They found three pieces and it's like 25% of the total or something like that. But the Mesha Stele, they found the whole thing, but ironically, and this is in the late 1860s, the Bedouin who found it, there got to be a, it's a longer story, but a tussle with the Westerners,

some missionaries and archeologists kind of guys who wanted to buy it. So they ended up throwing it into a fire, super heating it, putting water on it, and then it shattered and all these pieces. So now you can go to the Louvre today and you'll see it on display, because what happened was some of the guys went

and collected all the fragments that were surviving. And so they have, I don't know, maybe two thirds of the whole, which is good, but it's like, it's too bad that it's not the whole thing. Now, why is it important? It's written by a king who's mentioned in the Bible, the king of Moab. He's living in the time of King Ahab

and Ahab's sons and then Jehu. And he's boasting, this is what they do, if you're gonna make an inscription in stone, right, you're not gonna talk about your failures, you're gonna talk about how awesome I am and how many great things I did. And he describes all the things he built, he describes the victories that he won and some of those victories he mentions,

even by name he mentions the tribe of Gad. He's talking about, even there's a mention of the word David. So, that's another thing that ties into the Tel Dan inscription. Both of those inscriptions have the name of David on it. And it's just a really, I could say more. I don't want to nerd out on you here, but this is, I talked about this is my dissertation and I think I made kind of a little discovery or something that maybe isn't as widely recognized. Actually, and I can summarize it this way, for years I would read and hear how people say, well, Second Kings III is contradicted by the Mesha Steely and, you know, I'd hear this or that or whatever.

And then when I was, like I said, doing my doctoral work and I just found, you know, there's this little simple thing that like totally solves the problem. And it's super simple and I don't think it's disputable. And that is this, I don't have to tease you, I'll tell you. It's just that the inscription dates a little later than what is commonly recognized. It dates not to the beginning of Mesh's reign, it dates to the end of his reign, which totally makes sense because he's boasting

about all these things he did which had been at the end of his reign. And once you do that, you're about 20 years later than the 2 Kings 3 description of a battle there. And suddenly, not only does your contradiction go away, you actually have a very nice picture that describes the seesaw back and forth between Israel and Moab in the 9th century. Oh, yeah. So cool. What about, I mean, isn't Hezekiah's tunnel a kind of an obvious one? Or?

It is. Yeah. And I love it. I was, I told you, I was teaching like second to sixth graders yesterday and so I was bringing in the pictures of Hezekiah's tunnel. You know, I have one of you that I, that's like, pops up, you know, here and there. We were digging it. Pete Slauson With the pick, right? I think I went there with the pick, digging in Hezekiah's tunnel. Well, shoveling dirt out of it. Brian Smith How many people, Preston, can say that they dug in Hezekiah's tunnel? But, I mean, you do and I took a picture to prove it. Pete Slauson So, for people that don't know what we're

talking about, explain Hezekiah's tunnel and why it confirms, or, yeah, confirms the biblical record. Brian Smith Yeah, it's just a neat little thing. So, Hezekiah is taught on why it confirms the biblical record. Yeah, it's just a neat little thing. So, you're reading along in 2 Kings, he's talking about Hezekiah's reign and a big part of that he's, you know, dealing with the Assyrian invasion, but he trusts the Lord and God comes to the rescue and saves him and that's so amazing. And then Hezekiah is tempted by the Babylonians, and he honestly, he doesn't trust the Lord on that, and so there's judgment for that. But then, the very end of the record, the Bible says, as for all the other events of

Hezekiah's reign, you can go read about those in the royal records, including about the tunnel that he built to bring water into the city. And actually, it's in 2 Kings 20, parallel common in 2 Chronicles 32. So two mentions of this tunnel. So obviously, like that was a big deal, that for the biblical writer to say, well, they did all these other things,

including the tunnel, and now we have it. So the visitors today, now a lot of tourists don't go just because it's a little bit logistically challenging. If you've got a group of older people or whatever, then they're not gonna be going through the tunnel. But I mean, students like us, back in the day, and people with energy and aren't claustrophobic or whatever, we can walk through the tunnel.

What you see is this. It's a tunnel that's a third of a mile long. It takes us, I tell students, it's gonna take us 30 minutes to walk through. Third of a mile, and it is narrow. It's just single file, just walking through, one at a time, through the solid bedrock. And we know how they made it, for two reasons. One is at the end of the tunnel, there's an

ancient inscription and it's the writing is from the time of Hezekiah. Now it's not like Hezekiah saying, Hey, I'm Hezekiah and I'm awesome. I made this tunnel. It was the workman. So like they were kind of proud of their work and I don't even know if they like checked with you know, It's graffiti basically, it's graffiti. But it's, it describes how they started from both ends and they met in the middle. Now, if our listeners are thinking like, well, that's no big deal because they went in a straight line. If you look at it, they went in an S shape and we don't know why. I'm an archaeologist. They have theories.

None of them are convincing to me on why they did the S route, and nobody knows either how they were able, underground, to meet in the middle. Man, we also too, we know that this wasn't just like, you know, whatever, something they invented or something to give themselves greater glory. You can actually see the place where they met because you're, whatever, something they invented or something to give themselves greater glory. You can actually see the place where they met

because you're walking along, the pick marks are going in one direction, and then all of a sudden the pick marks are going in the opposite direction, and there's a little kind of a low spot in the tunnel where I guess they just decided like, hey, we met, like who cares about cleaning off the top of the tunnel and smoothing that out, we're done.

And it's for the water, so that's why Hezekiah didn't make it for people. He made it to get water from the Kidron side valley down the east side of the city of David. It was apparently vulnerable there. He didn't want the Assyrians to get it. The Sennacher was on the march. And so he brings it to the other side of the eastern hill where there's greater fortifications

and there's a pool. We know of it as the Pool of Siloam. Jesus is going to do a miracle at that pool 700 years later. But in fact, the water only got to the Pool of Siloam in Jesus' day because Hezekiah had carved that amazing tunnel 700 years earlier. And the spring was outside the city walls, right? Or no? So yeah, that's a little tricky.

So when we, so Preston, when you were there, we were digging inside Hezekiah's tunnel and then Siloam Tunnel is another tunnel next to that. And then in the years after that, they found a massive tower built on top of the Gihon Spring. I mean, we're talking unbelievably massive, huge stones, which is just kind of like, how did this get here? And who did this? And we have questions, we don't have answers. But to your question then of,

was the Gihon spring outside the city wall? I had an easier answer for you back before this discovery. And that's another thing too, let me just add. And I just think it's good, I'm a teacher, right? Like I'm not an apologist. I recognize realities and a reality is the more, not always, but a lot of times the more discoveries that are made, the more questions we end up with and fewer answers. And that's one thing. I told you I was reading this book

on the history of Jerusalem by archaeologist Jodi Magnus. And the way I'm a little frustrated in parts of it because she keeps saying like, and then they found this and now we don't know what it means. And like, and that's almost like a pattern that the more data kind of complicates the picture. However, note this, I think if before we had, let me make up some numbers, 5% of available evidence,

and now we have 10% of available evidence, right? We still don't have the other 90%. So I just say, let's stay humble, and let's keep studying, and keep trying to make sense of this. But it does seem, I'm gonna come back to the question of the spring. So yes, I mean, you're

right. Like there's no way that Hezekiah is gonna invest in all that work in bringing the tunnel from one side of the city to the other side, except for his conviction that it was much better protected in the new place. So maybe, here's a theory, maybe that tower of which only archaeologists only found the bottom of it, right? They only found the foundation. So, it had been dismantled or whatever. So, maybe it had gone out of use and has a guy's time and he decided rather than rebuilding it, he would build the tunnel or something like that. Pete Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Jared The broad wall is one that always struck me as well, because that's referenced

in… Isn't it referenced in the Bible? He strengthened the wall or something like that? Yes. Yes. So, that's another… So, we have to connect two scriptures from different eras to tie this together. So, the phrase broad wall is in Nehemiah, but he's talking about a wall from earlier times. And, but so the archeologists, they took Nehemiah's name because they found this wall that's 25 feet thick. And it's the thickest wall anywhere in ancient Israel from the time of the kings

of Israel and Judah. But it was built probably, well, so look, what I taught you was it's time of Hezekiah. Yeah. And that's what everybody said until this year, last year. So I'm like, yeah, he's staying on. You're killing me, man. year, last year. So like, I know, like I said, the more they find things. So they recently did a very detailed study of carbon carbon dating. So the organic remains that they can carbon date and they concluded that that the timeline of Jerusalem in the 8th century, so we talk about

Hezekiah, we're talking 8th century, it needs to be kind of pushed earlier. So the thought is that the broad wall was built before Hezekiah. Now, it doesn't have to change our story. The story is that Hezekiah was attacked, going to be attacked by the Assyrians. And so this broad wall protects them. But maybe he, you know, maybe he did some reconstruction on it, or maybe he was building another section of it or, or, and this is, and I always just kind of leave this open, like that's a new study. So whenever a new study comes out, I mean, I look at who did it, how reliable is it, like that's a new study. So whenever a new study comes out, I mean, I look at who did it, how reliable is it,

and what's the pushback on it? Because too often, right, even in good scholarship at least, people can present one side and they don't, not yet. So I, and I'm not the expert, I'm a teacher, right? So I depend on others and I read what they say. And so in some sense, like the jury's still out for me on that and other things that are maybe potentially controversial and just wanna see,

is there confirming evidence or is it just like a story? And here's a trick they'll play sometimes. Archaeologists will go and they'll make this big press release, bring in all the cameras, get their face on TV or whatever, announcing some great discovery. And yet they haven't actually published it in scholarly journals for peer review. And so like, well, is this legit or not? So it's just, unfortunately, right? I mean, people are people and, and there's different motives at stake and there's desire for fundraising and for fame or whatever.

And some of it too, because it appeals to Bible believers like, Oh, this must prove the Bible or whatever. So there's just a measure of caution and yeah, that's, that's, that's the reality of things today. Okay, now what are some either discoveries or lack thereof that you would say challenge the veracity of the Bible? Again, I say that not because it actually does, but maybe people would frame it that way. Yeah. So, um, I don't have a list of this, these either, and it's always interpretation. But so I'd say kind of the fighting ground these days, and it's actually been now for a couple of decades, it is over David. So you've already touched on this, but that really

is, is kind of where there's, there's questions. And let me even frame it this way. If you go the further back in time you go, I'm talking now here the 1900s, they were challenging. So earlier on there there were some challenges to the historicity of Abraham. And then later on they're challenging the historicity of Joshua's conquest. And now, and some would say, I mean, secular archaeologists, when anyone would say, there was no conquest of Joshua, whatever. And now there's a discussion about the time of David and Solomon.

And so that again ties into questions of, does this pottery date to the 10th century, to the 9th century? So Israel Finkelstein, this was something that was kind of figured into my dissertation research, which is now 10 years ago. And I think the issue's kind of settled down, but back then it was the low chronology proposal

that Finkelstein had. And ultimately it had some initial followers. I mean, especially, you know, as students at Tel Aviv University, but it didn't receive a broad acceptance. And so that, I think that part has kind of gone away. I want to say that there's been a little bit of tweaking that was, they were always adjusting, right,

timelines and stuff like that. But there's still questions about the historicity of David. I think most would say he lived, but they're gonna say, well, he wasn't a great king, he was a tribal chieftain, and Jerusalem wasn't this grand city like the Bible describes, it was more like a village. And so, one of the ways I'm addressing this is,

I've written a book, it's now in the editorial process with Zondervan. I'm co-authoring it with Michael Grisani, and it's a history of ancient Israel. It's going to be a textbook for this subject in a class I've taught for a long time. But I spend a good bit of time in the David chapters, I have two chapters there on the time of David and another separate chapter on Solomon, dealing with what is the archaeological evidence that exists and to what degree does it correspond with the biblical record or are there still, you know, gaps and just acknowledge upfront, upfront, we don't have a ton of information,

but there's good reasons for that. But I would say that the trend is definitely moving. The evidence that's been found in the last 10, 15 years is strengthening the historicity of David, if I can say it that way, but discoveries, for example, cities down on the Western foothills, the Shola of Judah that are from the time of David,

including some inscriptions. They don't mention David by name, but it's just showing like, hey, there's a central power. Somebody's funding this. And it just, it fits really well, again, hey, there's a central power, somebody's funding this. And it just, it fits really well. Again, too, with the conflict with the Philistines and, but yeah, that's probably a bigger debate. The later you get in history,

this is just kind of a general characterization, but as you move on in the time of, you know, Jehoshaphat and Hezekiah and Josiah and Cyrus and maybe not Nehemiah, that's a little different. But generally, there's just more and more evidence that supports the biblical record. So like the book of Jeremiah, I mean, we just got a ton. You can write, in fact, people have several, at least two books I know of, archaeological commentaries on the book of Jeremiah, Cause there's, Huh. So, um, what about Solomon though?

I mean, it wouldn't, wouldn't the grand glorious kingdom and all he did that, that we do have evidence of something kind of like that, right? Not that it verifies Solomon, but is it kind of match the biblical record or archeological record? Yeah. So, you know, I'll kind of focus in a little bit here now. So we have the general challenges that I've mentioned, but with Solomon, the more specific problem is this. His construction is where today's Temple Mount is. But if you're interested in today, we'll call it the Temple

Mount, they'll call it Haramah Sharif, I mean the noble sanctuary, which tells you that's a Muslim holy place. So are the Muslims allowing the Jewish Israelis to go and excavate? And of course the answer is no. And so, you know, if we're looking for any evidence of the temple, his palace, all those palace buildings, all that stuff, and not only, so like even if, I say this, let's just say, I mean imagine the impossible, that they were to say like, hey welcome, come on in,

and dig wherever you want. And they still wouldn't find, I don't think they would find that much because of later construction. Not only Herod the Great, but especially Herod the Great, decided, I'm going to build this massive compound. And we were up there. In fact, Preston, your group was about the last one where we could, as a class, go inside the Dome of the Rock. Oh, you can't go inside anymore?

Not if you're not Muslim. Wow. Yeah, we can't go inside anymore. Not if you're not Muslim. Wow. Wow. Yeah. We totally went in there. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I've heard of a guy who, who can get you in for a price. Um, but, but yeah, just, uh, is it Shaban? Remember Shaban? Yeah. Our money changer. Yeah. His son is running the store now. Is he really? No, that's so funny. What about AI? That was always a big one when we were there that, that were because the Bible gives in, in Joshua eight, right? A really specific geographical description of the battle of

AI at AI tells us right where it is, but our key, whether we were there, there was, ah, we're not really finding much AI here. But then I think again, Bryant wood was doing some things. It was like, well, not so fast. There's more here than people think. Can you explain what that issue was and where we were we're at 26 years later now? Yes. So the, you're, you're right, in Joshua 7 and 8 you have the two battles of AI and the second battle, because the Israelites lost the first battle, seems to be the motivation for in the second battle they burned the city. So we should find a destruction layer and because

the battle narrative is pretty detailed, we have geographical coordinates, you could say almost, where you like, there's a valley here and there's a hill north of it. And so there's a, and even the name. So the name in Hebrew, it's ha, which means the, ai, which is ruin. So it literally is, oh, there's the ruin, ha-ai, the ruin. And there's this massive ruin ha'ai, the ruin, and there's this massive

ruin that's right in the region, right in there where you'd expect to find it. The problem is that when there was a Southern Baptist seminary professor in the 1960s, he dug there and he didn't find remains from the time of Joshua. So his conclusion was there was no Joshua, which seems like not the best reasoning, especially for like a seminary professor. Like, are there any other options? And so this is where Bryant Wood jumps in and says, let's look around. And in fact, he identified an early explorer account, like 100 years earlier, where they had located AI

at a site just one kilometer to the west, so less than a mile. And he said, I wanna dig there. So he gets a permit and yeah, our students, we were digging with him each fall. He'd come back, he'd dig summers and falls, short seasons and we were part of that and looking at remains, whatever there is. So he's convinced that that fits the necessary criteria for AI and I'm convinced that it has a number of things going for it. I'm just cautious by nature,

and so I'm fully committed. I have another friend who, he has another idea, and so I'll be curious to see if he is able to make any progress on that. This is maybe for me just a good case study, So I'll be curious to see if he is able to make any progress on that. So this is maybe for me just a good kind of case study. Like what I would say to my students is I don't always have all the answers. And I'm very willing to say here's a possibility, here's another possibility.

One may be right, both may be wrong. I'm not sure, but I'm content with that and I'll keep waiting. And now it's been what, 35 years, I guess, since I first studied in Israel. So I've seen a little bit of things over that time and I'm not threatened. If something doesn't fit, I'll just wait.

Like you said, we're going on such, I don't say, well, yeah, little evidence. You dig up five, 10% of a city, that's a lot, you know? And then you had the problem of interpretation and dating and further studies contradicting or challenging previous studies. So I feel like most archaeological conclusions have to be a bit open-handed, right? Or wet cement. I mean, some are more secure than

others, but... Pete Yeah, I would say so. So, when I think about archaeology and I teach archaeology, I'm not stressing the apologetic. I'm not saying like, we need this to prove the Bible. I'm saying, what can archaeology help us to understand about the world of the Bible and get insights. And so like, for example, like tombs, like, and maybe I owe this to one of my professors, he was, he was a tomb freak, you could say. Like he studied all these ancient tombs. And then so he taught his students and we would go on these, you know, field trips. And what you can learn about the houses for the dead,

because that's what they are, helps you understand what houses for the living were like. And so I could see more of it, but it's really quite fascinating to see even like how they decorated their houses, how they had panelings in the wall, how they had, you know, the way the ceiling was designed, because we don't have a lot of,

actually we do, we have, I haven't been in a't have a lot of, actually we do. We have, I haven't been in a lot. A lot of them are destroyed or fenced off or whatever, but yeah, I think the illustrative value makes it totally worthwhile. Yeah, that's awesome. You, one more site to talk about. You're a few years ago, you went to Sousa, right?

In Iran. First of all, how'd you get in to that country? I don't think you could just go hang out in Iran, but it was that hard to get into. There's a hole in the fence on the... Yeah. So no, you can, you can go to Iran. If you, if you go to the state department, you know, travel advisory, it'll have a big red banner at the top, which says, level four, don't go. So there's not a direct flight from the US, of course, but from other countries there are.

And I have a friend, Eric Zeller. You were on the- Oh, Eric, yeah. You were in his era. So he's living in that part of the world. We bought tickets flying out of the UAE into a southern city in Iran. Now, this was at a time, Iran. And now this was, this was at a time, this was in the year 2018, if I remember right. And things were quieter than they are now. There was this nuclear peace deal that Obama had put in place. And so I'm not, I'm not crazy. I know that probably listeners won't believe that, but I mean, I really, I have a family, you know, five kids and I love them all and my ministry and church.

And I'm not gonna, I don't wanna be reckless with my life. I'm right, I'm a steward of what God's given me. But I really felt like I could go safely. And there's details I won't, you know, take your time to explain why I thought it was. And in fact, it was no problems at all in the whole time, flying in, flying out, nothing. It was enjoyable, it was peaceful,

the people were wonderful. They really are, they're running people, they're so nice. But I wanted to go because I'm on this quest to go to all the sites in the Bible. And I take pictures of these places. And in fact, I mean, you may remember, but I was starting, my very first photo collection was when you were there. And so, right after you left, January 2000, released the first edition of the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands. And that had pictures from Israel and Jordan. And it was lousy. I mean, it was like, it was the best thing at the time I could do. But,

I've been working on it ever since, and 25 years now. And so I would go to Turkey and go to Greece, and I'm taking thousands of pictures, Egypt and Italy, but then what about Iran? And so yeah, when the opportunity presented itself and I thought I could go safely, and it takes, I'm planning, I mean, I had to plan out like nine months in advance because you gotta work through different authorities

to get the permission and the itinerary has to be approved by the government in Tehran and all of that. But it turned out to be fantastic. And the highlight, so you mentioned SUSE, I mean, this is not, this is, I mean, so they say, this is my highlight, but there's no tour groups who go there and now you're like,

no tour groups go to Iran. There are actually some not from the US, but whatever tour groups that do go to Iran, don't go to Susa because it doesn't look impressive, especially compared to some other sites like Persepolis is phenomenal. Wow, I took more pictures of Persepolis is phenomenal. Wow, I took more pictures of Persepolis than any place I've ever been, like 2,000 or I forget

exactly now, but in one day. It's just phenomenal. But Susa-Susa doesn't look so great by comparison, but biblically, I mean Nehemiah was there as the cut bear, Daniel had a vision there, but most famously, it's where Esther was brought as the wife of King Xerxes. And you can literally, Preston, it's so cool. You can just like walk through Esther. You can like, I mean, you can see like, Esther's living here and the king's throne room is here

and she's walking down the hallway there and she's turning the corner. And then he's sitting on his throne and is he going to hold out the scepter? And like, that's just, yeah, I just love that. So it matches, does it, does it lend support to like the historicity of Esther then? Cause I know that's always in question, like. Yes. So, you know, you're not going to find in archaeology, like traces of what Esther

and Xerxes talked about or something like that. But it, what's the word I want, combat-compatible? I mean, it's... It's compatible, yeah. Yeah. So, you have the palace from the right time period. You've got the... So, there's a mention in the Bible of the inner courtyard and of the outer courtyard, and they found both of those. There's the mention of the king's gate. That's where it says, Mordecai was sitting in the king's gate and he overheard the conspiracy. And there's a gate and it's big and it's impressive. And you have the

reception hall and you have garden areas. And so, yeah, so I'd say it this way that you can take the story of Esther and I've done it. So I have a photo collection, the photo companion to the Bible is a series and a volume for Esther and it just takes all the pictures and just lays them all out, chapter and verse, so you can just walk through the whole story and it fits. So I don't see anything there like it proves, but it's what you would expect to find

if the account of Esther is historically accurate. That's fascinating. Wow. Your pictures that you've taken over two decades, I mean, they're featured in several like textbooks, right? Like when people see, are reading books and show pictures of the Holy Land, there's a chance that might be looking at your picture? Yes. Yeah. I think because I live there and have knowledge and then had opportunity to take lots of pictures and then hiring airplanes

so I could fly around. I was able to create what might be, I don't know how to disprove that, but it might be the most comprehensive collection of photographs of biblical sites. And so yeah, so publishers have contacted me to include photographs in some study Bibles and textbooks and biblical archaeology review magazine. Most issues these days, I think, have one or two of my pictures in it. Yeah, so it's neat. People say like, oh, I was reading this and I saw your name. And yeah,

that's just been a fun sort of byproduct. So my goal was never like to get pictures in books. My goal was to create photo collections for Bible teachers and students. Because I mean, that's me and I'm like, I'm want to serve kind of people who are like me. So someone who's teaching through, say, Exodus, we now have this collection, it's like 6,000 photographs that walk through the book of Exodus. So I mean, Mount Sinai to the tabernacle and furniture and Egyptian parallels to the Ark of the Covenant. And I mean, like, you name it. I mean, okay, I don't know that we have everything. As much as we can.

I mean, and it's, that's the result of, you know, of decades, honestly, of building a massive photo collection and then working with a team of great guys. I can't, I only do a fraction of the work myself. These guys are amazing. These guys have doctorates and we have other supporting team members too

who do different things to just create really a super accessible collection of photographs. So if it's whether it's Esther or Exodus or the Book of Acts, you got like one go-to place. So that was what drove me from the beginning and still drives me now, but it's cool to get my pictures in books as well.

Can people purchase the whole set? I mean, you used to sell these like on CD-ROM, right, in the early days? Like, can people, or is it just on your website, all the pictures? Yeah, so, yeah, BiblePlaces.com, that's been the website. And so, yeah, they can go there and see what we have. We have a lot of stuff, just information that's for anybody to read. I mean, I got like school kids and college students or whatever, or even, I mean, adult Bible students or whatever. And they'll tell me like,

oh, I was reading your webpage about the Sea of Galilee or whatever. But then we do sell the collection. So if people want a higher resolution, high quality photo collections and we now have, I mean just right now as we're talking, releasing real soon here, volume 74 and 75. Oh my God.

Total photo, so yeah, I have 25 years and we're not done. I mean, I don't know when we'll be, I mean, we got, we finished the New Testament. So we have a, we have a photo collection for every book of the New Testament. So whether it's Philippians or Revelation or Matthew, but then a lot of the Old Testament, I mean, we're working on that. And I was there when you were,

you were photography in volume one. Yeah. Well, Todd, man, this has been a fun I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. But I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it.

And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. And I'm sure you're going to be able to do it. difficult, but when, when, when you can, it's just, it's, it's invaluable. And I would recommend as, as you would too, I mean, you can go on a 10 day trip, a two week trip. Um, those are, those are great.

If, if that's all you can do, then do that. But if there's any chance you can go over for an extended period of time, it's, it's, it's way better. Um, I mean, it's, it's, it's better. So, yeah. And it can, I mean, maybe our maybe our listeners aren't in college or whatever, but maybe their kids are. Maybe their kids are in high school or whatever. And I just give a shout out. I mean, there's several schools where they can go and study. So, the Master's University,

we have our campus there, Israel Bible Extension. There's also... Jared Is it, during the war, is it still going? Pete Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. My daughter just got back like two weeks ago. Okay. Okay. She had been there already as a student.

She went back to work and help out for the semester, but oh yeah, we're there. So yeah, when the war broke out, the students had returned back to our California campus. And then we were off for the next, I guess, two semesters. But yeah, no, we're there. And Jerusalem University College is there. And yeah, there's, I mean, I did it in college, you did it in college. It just is such a perfect time in life

before you have those commitments. You can't get away for three months. And to get college credit for it, and you're seeing the Bible in front of you. I mean, there's very little that compares with that. And so, I mean, that's why, I mean, myself, to whatever degree, and then the Master's University, and these other places, are willing to work so hard and to deal with the hassles and things like COVID and war and whatever, because we know how valuable it is to students. So I just want those who are listening in to know about this possibility and whether it's for themselves or for someone else to

say like, hey, see if you can make that work. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thanks again, Todd. Thank you, great to talk. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.