Theology in the Raw - Exiles in Babylon: A Christian Political Identity. Preston Sprinkle

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

This episode is a talk I gave at the Center for Pastor Theologians annual conference held in Oak Park, IL, in September 2024. In this talk, I try to unpack what the Bible says about a Christian political identity by looking at the Scriptural themes of exile and Babylon. The talk was received fairly well, espeically by the Anabaptists in the back, who were hootin' and hollerin'. Others had some really thoughtful questions and pushback.  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, we're doing it again. The exiles of Babylon conference is from April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota. That's 20, 25. All the info is at theology in the rod.com. This is going to be a barn burner of a conference. Lots of fun stuff happening. Some amazing speakers coming out again, go to theology rod.com to check out all the information. And there is a early bird signup special that expires December 31st. You want to take advantage of that offer. My guest today is the me. This is a recording of a talk I gave at this year's Center for Pastor Theologians Conference in Oak Park, Illinois, back in September.

And in this talk, I try to articulate my summary of what I mean when I say we should be living as exiles in Babylon. Goodness gracious, I get all kinds of comments on social media where people are like, you know, what do you mean by Babylon? What do you mean by exile? What about this? What about that?

And, and, um, in this talk, I try to give kind of, uh, my most concise 40 minute or so summary of what I think is a solid, uh, biblically faithful Christian political identity. Yeah. It was a, it was a fun conference. I got lots of interesting feedback from the audience. Most of the people really resonate with it. Got some hard questions as well. Um, so yeah, really enjoyed, uh, participating in this conference. Shout out to the center for pastor theologians for inviting me to give a keynote talk. So please welcome back to the show. The one that's just weird. All right. Here's my talk folks. Hope you enjoy it. I love being around pastors and leaders. I know most of you are in that space. I've always saw myself as wanting to be either a theological pastor or a pastoral theologian. I never liked the false dichotomy that separates those two.

And I found myself on the side more on the academic kind of outside the local church space for the most part, not totally, but I've never lost, like my passion in doing that has always been to serve the church and to come alongside and cheer on pastors in the trenches of ministry. So I come here in that spirit. Thank you for being in the trenches of ministry.

Even in the last few years when those trenches have been filled with mustard gas, I know for some of you with how much you've had to work through. Thank you for your faithfulness. I've spent the last 10 years engaging the LGBTQ conversation, and no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't get myself cancelled. And I tried really hard. So I wrote a book on politics. And the jury is still out.

It just came out a few months ago. So we'll see how it goes. Now I need to qualify when I say I wrote a book on politics. I am not a political scientist. I'm a Bible guy, or as people might say, a biblical scholar. That just sounds pretentious. So I'm a Bible guy, and so I want to saturate myself in the text of Scripture to see what it says about a political identity, and that's what I want to talk to you about tonight. I want to stick very

close to the text of scripture. I'm gonna try to out-bible Caitlin and try to reconstruct a Christian political identity. How did the people of God throughout the narrative of scripture, how did they view themselves in light of the nations and empires that they were living under? And how might that narrative inform how the modern church today

should view itself in light of the nations and empires that we are living in? And I'm going to suggest that the biblical lens of being exiles in Babylon is one way, not the only way, but one way to conceive of our Christian political identity. So whenever I'm faced with like political questions, I begin with the fundamental posture that I am primarily a blood-bought member of Christ's global multi-ethnic kingdom spread or exiled among the nations. That's my starting point. God has called us, the global, multi-ethnic community,

spread among the nations to embody His reign among the nations, whichever nations we are living under. And I don't consider this terribly controversial. Controversy tends to follow me. You know, I told myself you're coming to CPT, this is the Midwest, so don't be controversial. So I'm actually, this is, I think my talk is actually kind of a yonner, really. Sorry to let you down. If you want controversy, you can listen to my podcast. This is gonna be just kind of vanilla. As members of Christ's global kingdom,

okay, exiled among the nations, of course we are to be good citizens in the nations we are living in. Jeremiah 29, you know, pursue the well-being of the city I have exiled you to or deported you to. Romans 13, one, you know these passages, submit to governing authorities. 1 Peter 2 says the same thing, we are to be good citizens. We are to be agents of truth and justice and beauty in the space God has put us. We are to

love our neighbors and enemies alike. We are to be generous toward the poor and care for those in need. We are to be good citizens, but our good citizenry flows out of our primary identity as being members in Christ's global multi-ethnic kingdom spread among the nations. To tease this out, I want to unpack three concepts. Number one, exile. Number two, Babylon. And then number three, what I call the counter- imperial nature of the gospel. So let's begin with exile. You're all pastors, so I don't need to spend a lot of time here. Obviously, the concept of exile goes back to that fundamental event in the biblical story, the Babylonian exile in the, you know, late sixth century BC. Babylon comes over, sacks Jerusalem, kills a bunch of people, leaves some people in the land, and takes a bunch of people back over to Babylon, where they lived in exile for 78 years, according to Jeremiah.

Babylon where they lived in exile for 70 years according to Jeremiah. This is the context in which we have that term, that term exile is born out of that. When Babylon exiled the Jewish people, they lived, some Jews lived a decent life in exile. In fact, archaeological evidence shows that some Jews actually became fairly well off. It wasn't a terrible existence, you know, there were definitely challenges. But they lived in exile, and this is the context in which Jeremiah says they are to seek the good of the city.

Don't revolt against Babylon. That's kind of the context actually, Jeremiah 29, is there was murmurs of should we revolt against Babylon? And Jeremiah, the word of Jeremiah says, no. Build houses, plant vineyards, get married, have kids, continue the creation mandate to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Your mission hasn't changed even though you are in exile in Babylon. You are exiled, You have been deported to Babylon, Jeremiah says. Pursue the well-being of the city that I have deported you or exiled you to. You are a Jewish exile living in a foreign land. You are worshippers of the one true God, Yahweh, who reigns over the nations,

who raised up Babylon to exile you, who in 70 years will raise up Persia to destroy Babylon, as my judgment towards Babylon. And they're going to let you return, and then years later, I'm going to destroy Persia, because I am Yahweh. I am the king of the universe. Don't forget your identity in exile. When they tell you not to pray, you open the windows and spread your arms wide. When they tell you to bow the knee, you stand tall and proud. When they force you to conform to Babylonian ways, you resist. Even if they throw you to the lions, I am Yahweh. Don't confuse these identities.

You are not Babylonian. Now, something happened while they were in exile. You can read about it in Jeremiah 53. There's a division among the exiles. Some synagogues became supporters of Nebuchadnezzar and other synagogues became supporters of Nabonidus. And the supporters of Nebuchadnezzar were supportive of the slogan to make Babylon great again. And the supporters of Nabonidus were all about building Babylon back better. And God, in Jeremiah 53, you can read about it, it's, God is really excited about this division among the Jewish exiles.

I don't have a conclusion to that, I didn't, I just, yeah. Your pastor saw it, I don't need to say anything, right? You get it. Okay. Some of you are turning to Jeremiah 53. When they be turned from exile, seven years later, they physically returned in 536 BC, right? Built the temple, took a few years, 516, temple's complete. So they're back into land, but they're still sort of in exile. In Nehemiah, he prays the prayer, you know, we are still slaves in this land to this day, even after their return.

They're back into land, but they're still under Persian rule. They're paying taxes to Persia. There's no Davidic king on the throne. They rebuilt a temple, but the presence of God, promised in Ezekiel, had not returned to that second temple. So in many ways, they're still in a kind of spiritual and political exile. Let's take a time, I'm not gonna go into it,

but this is a very common thing in intertestamental or second temple Jewish literature, this identity of still being in exile, both spiritual and political exile. This is a common theme among the early Jews leading into the first century. And so when Jesus and the Christians, the New Testament comes on the scene, this is a very common way for Jewish

people to conceive of themselves as still living in exile. And so the early Christians adopted this identity of being in exile. Daniel Smith Christopher, he says that the entire New Testament is written from the perspective of exile. It's a great, it's a fantastic book, The Religion of the Landless. He might be overstating it a little bit, I don't know. I'm sympathetic with what he's saying here, but that's a bold... It's kind of bold. But I think he's mostly correct, I think,

that the entire New Testament is written from the perspective of exile. What we can see is we see it explicitly in certain letters, like 1 Peter. 1 Peter writes of those who are elect exiles in the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. And this is just, you know, it's not like they were physically deported to these lands. These are just people who grew up there, lived there, just like some of you grew up in Chicago or whatever. But this was Peter's choice, social and political identity that he's trying to cultivate among the believers scattered among these different lands.

We see the same thing in 1st Peter 2, and this is really kind of a key if you know 1st Peter. Like this is a foundational part of 1st Peter. 1st Peter 2, 9 to 11, you are chosen race race, a royal priesthood, holy nation. And then he says, beloved, I urge you as sojourners, or people living as a foreigner. That's what sojourner means, to live as a foreigner. I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh. You are to live as if you are a foreigner in this land.

In fact, later on, to complete the exile in Babylon theme, he even refers to the church that he's writing from in 1 Peter 5.13, that this church is in Babylon, which is, again, a very Jewish kind of Christian way to refer to Rome or the Roman Empire. You know what's fascinating is that early church leaders latched on to this identity of being a sojourner. You see a lot of early church leaders like Clement and Polycarp. Clement says, you know, he writes from the church of God that is

sojourning, that is living as foreigners at Rome to the church of God that sojourns or lives as foreigners in the city of Corinth. Polycarp says the same thing. There's lots of other Christian writers. I can't my glasses, I don't have my glasses, but there's other quotes you can put on. You can put on there. Oh, there it is. Okay, yeah, flip the, flip the, do the next one. There's a bunch of others. Like, just to let you know that this was a very common way in which Christian leaders would address each other from different cities. It would be like, you know, Gerald, you know, from the church that is sojourning, that is, we're living as foreigners in Oak Park to the church that... Are you guys... Who's the pastor here? Oh, I mean, how did you guys sneak in? Where are you pastor at? Waco Texas. Waco Texas, okay. The church that is living as a foreigner in Oak Park,

the church that's living as foreigners in Waco. But I have 10 generations of family from Waco. We were here since, you know, David Crockett. It doesn't matter. You might actually have lots of deep roots here, but you are to live as if you are a foreigner. I want to say that some of the best people to teach the church how to live as a foreigner are foreigners.

We don't have time for this, but that... This is what I mean. Like, if you're thinking like an exile, if you're thinking like a member of Christ's global kingdom, you start asking different questions rather than debate this immigration policy, this immigration policy, it's like, man, migrants can be some of the best people to help the church, the majority church,

to understand what it's like to live as a foreigner under the empire. So Christians are first and foremost members of Christ's global multi-ethnic kingdom, exiled among the nations. And our perspective and opinions of national politics are not unimportant, but they should be formed from that perspective.

Number two, Babylon. Babylon obviously refers to, you know, the literal city of Babylon or the Babylonian Empire. It actually goes back to the Tower of Babylon. The Hebrew word, by the way, Babel and Babylon, is the same word. It's the Tower of Babylon, really. But in the first century, Jews and Christians used Babylon, as we saw in 1 Peter 5, as kind of code for the Roman Empire. In fact, when we see this, I mean, 1 Peter 5, you see it clearly, you see it in other,

especially apocalyptic Jewish literature in the first century, it was very common for Jews to refer to the Roman Empire as Babylon. In Revelation chapter 13, this beast of the sea, which has 10 horns and seven heads, in Revelation 13.1, John later says plainly that the seven heads are the seven hills upon which the woman sits. Rome was known as a city on seven hills.

Again, this is not, I've got other quotes and verses up there. This is not, I don't know really any revelation scholar who would dispute this. Sorry, any revelation scholar who's well versed in first century Jewish apocalyptic literature. Who would, I don't want to spend a lot of time here. who's well-versed in first century Jewish apocalyptic literature. I don't want to spend a lot of time here.

The Book of Revelation refers to Rome and Roman Empire as Babylon, or the beast of the sea, beast of the land. These are kind of different aspects of the Roman Empire. None of John's original readers would have missed this. I do want to add this too. As we are building our biblical political theology, I would suggest that we should give pride of place to the book of Revelation because within the Jewish mindset, apocalyptic literature was designed Apocalyptic literature, it was designed to be political,

it was designed to pull the mask off of political realities. So, Forasra, 2nd Baruch, 2nd Enoch, hearts of Ezekiel, like it's designed to be political, like that's the primary function of apocalyptic literature. So, kind of like we get prior to place to like, 1st, 2nd Timothy and Titus for like pastoral leadership. I think we should do the same for the book of Revelation for building our political theology. It's not the only book we can sell, but I do think we should give special attention to the book of Revelation. Two things about Babylon in the book of Revelation number one, Babylon is a flexible concept. It does refer to Rome, but it refers to more than Rome. We see this in Revelation 13, verses

1 to 2, when the beast coming up out of the sea, which again is either the Roman Empire or an aspect of the Roman Empire, and it looks like a leopard but also has the feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion. Leopard, bear, lion. Now if you're familiar with the book of Daniel, that should be familiar because in Daniel 7 we see leopard, bear, lion, and another animal. I forget what it is, different empire. But in Daniel 7, the leopard refers to the historic Babylon, the bear to Persia, and the lion to Greece. There's some debates about which empire, you know, but these different animals are referring to different empires. John in Revelation 13 collapses them all together.

So that Rome is just one big manifestation of this concept of Babylon, but Babylon is a very flexible concept. Again, this is something that if you read the commentators who are good Revelation scholars, everybody kind of recognizes this. I have one quote from Richard Baucam, but this is something that, again, I had a whole list of other quotes from other scholars, but it's not that disputed. Baucam says that any society whom Babylon's cap fits must wear it. If you're familiar with Baucam's work, he emphasizes the sort of economic exploitation of Babylon. You see that in Revelation 17 and 18, right? With the destruction of Babylon.

It's largely about economics, economic exploitation. Any society which absolutizes its own economic prosperity at the expense of others comes under Babylon's condemnation. High quality education is a significant need all over the world. And as Christians, we're called to live out our faith among those who don't know the gospel. So why not combine both vital education with gospel living? This is why you need to check out the English Language Institute in China or ELIC. Right now, ELIC is building its 2025 cohort of English teachers to make a difference in Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa, places where education and eternal hope are desperately needed.

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comprehensive training, benefits, and in-country care teams. So please don't miss out on this opportunity. It's an opportunity of a lifetime. Please visit elic.org forward slash t i t r to learn more. That's elic.org forward slash t r t r. Check it out. According to Scott McKnight, Babylon has several different features. I think he lists seven in his new commentary. Four of them, just to kind of highlight some of these. So these are characteristics drawn from the concept of Babylon in Revelation that are sort of general characteristics that can be used to in any way, would you consider supporting the show through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw? We are actually revamping our bonus material that Patreon supporters get. So we are going to two bonus Q and A's per month for all the different paid levels. Silver level

gets access to ask questions for the Q and A episode. And also you will get access to Exiles and Babylon archived content, which will be releasing different videos every month. Also access to bonus research episodes that I'm going to record from time to time, access to rough drafts of certain things I'm working on, which is a little scary for me to let people look into that because it's a rough draft. Gold and Gold Plus members, we have monthly Zoom chats and all the other perks that the other tiers get access to as well. So again, if you want to support

the show, it really, really does help us to flourish as a ministry. Again, patreon.com theologyandara. I will see you in the community. When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Allo or Allbirds, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and great marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling and for shoppers, buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does online business better than Shopify.

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to aggressively defend or promote national interests. Economic exploitation is a fourth characteristic of Babylon. So I'm gonna suggest John's elastic use of Babylon in the book of Revelation permits us to apply the concept of Babylon to nations and kingdoms and empires or empire-like nations today, or yesterday, or the future, which I'm gonna, again, suggest includes the United States of America. I have a bunch of, if you like,

I'm still not convinced, I have a bunch of proof. I'm gonna skip it, maybe Todd can tease out some of this. Again, I don't, the fact that the United States is at least empire-like. I haven't seen too many people dispute that among the political scientists I read, especially global, like, well, people in America do too, but especially, I asked my friend Peter Williams, who's British, I said, do you think America's an empire? And he looked at me like, as if I just asked him like two plus two equals four.

And he's British, so he knows the thing and two about empire, right? I mean, people, if you travel, people outside of America, like what I'm saying, it's not even like disputed. There might be some dispute with people within American thinkers, but I was shocked at how many people would say,

yeah, I mean, at the very least, empire-like. Maybe not a formal empire, but it has imperial qualities to it for sure. Okay, so that's the first thing. Babylon is a flexible concept. Number two, it's still under the Babylon, this is 2.2. Okay, so exile Babylon, flexible concept one. Number two.

Second point. This might be controversial, but I think it's biblical. Babylon is empowered by Satan and the church will celebrate its destruction. Alright, so good. Revelation 13 to the dragon, Satan gave the beast, Roman Empire and others that act like the Roman Empire, opulence, arrogance, militarism, economic exploitation. The dragon gave that, Babylon, his power and his throne and great authority. Verse 4, same thing. People worship the dragon because he, the dragon, Satan, has given authority to the beast. Babylon, Babylon's. And they also worship the beast and ask, who is like the beast?

Who can wage war against it? I feel like, I mean, look how impressive the military might is of Rome. Who can destroy us? And by the way, this is, again, any first century Jew would be yawning right now because this is a very, the fact that nations, especially empires, that they were demonically empowered, that's a common theme in Judaism. I mean, you see in Daniel 10 talks about spirit beings empowering the kings of Persia and Greece. I think Paul's phrase, authorities,

principalities and authority, you know, thrones, dominions, powers and authorities, and rulers and Ephesians, Colossians, and parts of Romans, like I think that is both. People say, are those governing authorities or are they demonic powers? And I think most scholars, a good portion at least, say it's kind I think that is both. People say are those governing authorities or are they demonic powers? And I think most scholars, a good portion at least, say it's kind of a blend of both.

It's the dark forces empowering the nations. When Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor, there's nothing in the text or within Judeo-Christian thinking on Satan and empires that would suggest that that's not a real offer. We assume from our non-Jewish modern perspective, like Satan offered him all the kingdoms, but he couldn't have done that.

He couldn't have given Jesus all the kingdoms. but he couldn't have done that. He couldn't have given Jesus all the kingdoms. Like, nothing in the text says that. Jesus didn't say, ha ha ha, you don't have that authority. Now this does, please hear me, this does not mean that because empires are demonically empowered that everything about the empire is bad. I mean Rome built amazing amazing road system you can walk on it today. They kept thieves at bay they made you know adultery illegal for a period of time. I mean Caesar Augustus he was like the original like focus on the family guy in his own kind of imperial

pagan way. I mean he was was like, really concerned about people settling down and getting married, you know, and having kids and not sleeping around with, you know, other people's spouses and stuff. Like, not everything about the Roman Empire was bad. And culturally, you know, maybe the, I don't know, tried Roman Empire food, but I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's a culinary

and art and, you know, good things when fallen humans come together. There is good that is produced there. So I'm not saying just because the dragon is empowering the beast, everything about the Roman Empire or everything about America is bad. But I do think that Christians living in exile should maintain a deep suspicion

toward Satan's attempt to rule the world by empowering the kingdoms of the earth. I think there's an oppositional character to the kingdom of God. And you believe it too, because you sang Psalm 2 a few minutes ago. Think about Psalm 2. It's not that like, oh, there's these awesome countries and then Jesus comes to reign in your hearts, you know, and like, there's no, I mean, I don't want to oversimplify, but there's no, like, dual citizenship in Psalm 2. There's an oppositional character to the rulership

of Christ. So Christians are to the rulership of Christ. So Christians are first and foremost members of Christ's global multi-ethnic kingdom, exiled among the nations, and we should view empires or empire-like nations through the lens of the biblical concept of Babylon. Number three, there's a counter-imperial nature to the gospel.

It's now widely recognized that a lot of these Christian-ish terms in the New Testament were very political. Terms like the gospel. Ewan Galeon was widely used to refer to the ascension of a new Caesar. Or when Caesar went and conquered another land and did his empire thing, he came home and was like, this is good news, this is the gospel. Caesars were called Lord, Savior, King, who brought salvation, hope, and peace to the world.

The very concept of kingdom used over a hundred times by Jesus, kingdom, basileia, is a political term. Even the term church, ecclesia, had political connotations. In ancient Athenian democracy, male citizens would gather 40 times-ish a year in an ecclesia to make political decisions. And yet the New Testament goes out of its way to call the church an ecclesia. They could have called it just a koinonia, but they deliberately chose a term that had deep political fragrance to it, because I do think the New Testament Church did see themselves as a political reality. Not a, I love what Micah said, not a partisan reality but a

profoundly political reality. So when the early church proclaimed Jesus as Lord and King who brought salvation and peace to the world, this was a theological statement but it was also a very subversive, provocative, political statement. We see this in Acts chapter 17. This is the classic example. This is the softball. This is the easy one. These... Okay, Paul and his friends, they go into the city of Thessalonica, go to the synagogue, preach Jesus, people get upset, they rile up the mob, and the mob says, these Christians, they're all acting contrary to Caesar's decrees. Why? Because they said that there's another king named Jesus.

And the crowd and city officials heard this and they were all really upset. They rightly interpreted the gospel through a political lens. If Jesus is Lord, then Caesar is not. I mean, okay, so he is actually ruling over, you know, there's a earthly physical reality here, but the proclamation that Jesus is Lord through political shade on the earthly rulers of the day. The kingdom is not of this world. John chapter 18, Jesus is talking with Pilate and there's this terminological, you know, two there's this terminological, you know, two ships passing in the night,

they're talking about Jesus' kingship, and they're just not hitting each other. And finally, Jesus, because Jesus isn't denying that he's a king, but he's kind of dodging the question a little bit. But then he says, my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting

that I might not be delivered over to the Jews, but my kingdom is not from the world. And some people take this to be Jesus's kingdom. It's just his like invisible reign in our hearts. Personal, private little Jesus. Jesus does reign over our hearts, but that is not, I don't think, is what Jesus was getting at. I mean, Jesus's kingdom was profoundly physical and political. It brought healing to the sick, food for the hungry, justice for the oppressed, a welcome to the outsider, dignity to the marginalized, a marriage and sexual ethic rooted in the Creator's design, a ruthless challenge to the outsider, dignity to the marginalized, a marriage and sexual ethic rooted in the Creator's design, a ruthless challenge to the wealthy and

elite, a radical disruption to social hierarchies. Jesus' kingdom was very political. When he says my kingdom is not this world, he simply means that the kind of kingdom or the manner in which I am going to rule is going to be vastly different than Rome. Rome sets up their kingdom through violence and bloodshed and social and economic inequality and wielding brute power to dominate the dominator. That's all the kingdoms have done it. But my kingdom is not of this kind. If it were, my servants would be fighting if my

kingdom was of this world. I'm not going to establish my kingdom in the way other kingdoms do it through fighting and violence and militarism and hating your enemy instead of loving your enemy. And I love what he says in this is earlier in the story in Matthew 26 when Peter, you know, pulled out his sword, hacked off the dude's ear. He was getting his kingdom on, right? He's like, all right, here we go. Been waiting for this for three and a half years. And Peter says, put that little thing away. Like, it's like a squirt gun. It's not real power. I mean, don't you... And even said, Jesus says, don't you think I can't

like call my father and rain down 12 legions of angels? Wait, Peter, you know if I want to overpower power with power, I can do that. It's a phone call away. We can do it the Roman way. We can do it through militarism. I can easily do that. But I'm not going to set up my kingdom by fighting but by dying. My kingdom will be fueled by an otherworldly kind of power of love and sacrifice and reconciliation and forgiveness and washing people's feet and enemy love. This is not weakness, this is true power. He said so much in Mark 10, which is a key passage in the Gospel of Mark 10, 10-42-45.

Those who regard, you know, James and John still misunderstanding the concept of power, we want to rule with you in the kingdom, and Jesus rebukes them and turns their concept of power on its head. It is not, you know, those who are regarded as rulers of the gentiles, they lord it over them, they rule with power, those in high positions act like tyrants over them, but it is not so among you. On the contrary, if you want to be great, whoever wants to be great among you will be your servant. Whoever wants to be first among you shall be slave of all, for even the Son of God did not, Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve."

Christlike humility and service and enemy love are directly contrasted with Babylon's political rule. Christlike humility is a political statement. One of my favorite stories from the life of Martin Luther King, it's a lesser known story. He was speaking at an event in Birmingham, Alabama in 1962. It wasn't a huge event. He was speaking and shortly into his talk, there was a man by the name of Roy James.

You guys heard the story? Roy James? He was an actual Nazi. like a neo-Nazi. Not like a real one, not like a mega-hat or something, he's an actual Nazi. And Roy James is big, you know, 6'2", King's what, 5'9", I think. Roy James marches up on stage and just Roy James marches up on stage and just smacks King in the face, rears back, hits him again in the neck before he finally got people tackled on him, pulled him off, Kings bruised and bloody. Shortly after, King goes and calmly talk,

he goes first of all, he buys a coke, brings it to the guy, and has a calm conversation with him. Shortly into the conversation, he says, I forgive you, Roy, and we are not going to press charges. And with a bag of ice on his face, he went back to finish his speech about truth, justice, and the power of Christian love. There's not a single person in that room who questioned which one wielded true power. Actual kingdom power, not this worldly stuff, ooh, I don't like him, you know. That's just silly, that doesn't work. One woman in the audience said, I was so proud of Dr. King,

his restraint was more powerful than a hundred fists. That woman knew a thing or two about power. Her name was Rosa Parks. My kingdom is not of this world because my reign, my kingdom will look vastly different than the kingdoms of this earth. You wanna establish truth and justice and righteousness in the world, then follow my lead.

I have one, three points of conclusion here, application. I'm supposed to do that, right? I'm gonna pick one. It's like a time. As we enter, not enter, as we are knee deep in the trenches of this political season. Oh, bless you pastors. Here's my, I might be preaching to the choir here,

but this is, I just, I want to scream this to the church. Differences of opinion on American politics should not threaten the unity of the blood-bought global multi-ethnic kingdom of God. Jesus prayed in John 17, I pray not only for these but also for those who believe in me through their word, that's us, not just people here but everybody's gonna believe in me through their word, I pray that they would all be one as you Father are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us so that the world may believe you sent me." The unity of the church

proclaims that the father sent the son. By implication, when Christians divide over American politics, we proclaim to the world that the father did not send the son. to the world that the Father did not send the Son." You think Satan, you know, we're all gonna, we're wondering who Caitlin's gonna vote for. You think Satan has a preferred candidate? Some of you are like, oh yes he does, oh yes he does. But yeah, I mean, I just, not to get all screw tape on you, but like if candidate blank gets elected, you think Satan's gonna be in causing division in the blood-bought

global church than he is in trying to get one Babylonian leader elected over another Babylonian leader over an empire that God is going to destroy one day. So let's turn the world upside down this fall by proclaiming the good news that Jesus is Lord and Caesar is not. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So as a parent, one of my greatest desires is to help my kids understand the Bible. But as your parents know, this is no easy task, okay? So this is why I'm so excited about the Bible Recap for Kids by Tara Lee Kamel.

Oh my goodness, this is an awesome resource. The Bible Recap for Kids is a young reader's edition of the bestselling, the Bible Recap, and it's adapted for kids ages eight to 12 years old. It follows along the same 365 day adult reading plan, but the recaps are adapted to this younger age group. Each recap only takes about three minutes to read. And although the book is set up to read the entire Bible of the year, but it's okay if your child goes at their own pace. So if you have kids or know of parents with kids or preteens, this book is a great way to help

them to read, understand, and love God's Word. Okay, so the Bible Recap for Kids releases November 12th, but I want to encourage you to pre-order your copy before November 12th. This will give you plenty of time to get it, and then maybe even make a family plan to be going through the Bible together come January 1st. But I want you to order it from bakerbookhouse.com. Okay, so don't go to Amazon. Let's avoid Amazon for this one. Go to bakerbookhouse.com

because there you will receive 40% off the book and free shipping and you'll get a free downloadable set of 50 scripture memory verse flashcards. So just click on the link in the show notes to get the Bible recap for kids. Well, y'all know the drill. Come in and line up and we'll look forward to having you fire off some questions to Preston.

Preston, thank you brother for that great stimulating, challenging talk. You like baseball? Love baseball. You love baseball? That's my, that's the empire that's still left. Yeah. And I'm a Dodger fan which is about as imperial as you can get. So I'm gonna give you an underhanded pitch baseball metaphor for the first question, who are you voting for? Really? Really. Really. And can I do a sidebar question? The only thing is my answer is going to cause maybe another hour long discussion that would

need to happen. Let me ask you this, why do you think we have such a hard time saying who we're voting for? It's like we're talking about sex or money. For me, it's because there are certain people that I would love to talk about the Bible with, sexuality, grace, and justice, and all, you know, like, that if they thought I was voting for a certain person, then I'm gonna, they're just gonna, the walls go up and I'm like, I don't, for me, it's like, that's not the hill I die on, but I have strong Anabaptist leaning, so I don't, I actually don't vote. You don't vote. Okay, so that's a good segue. It's gonna take me an hour to defend that though.

Well, that's a good segue to my second question. I shipped in some Mennonites to cheer for me. So that's my second question. I can give a short if you want. Let me ask a question and see if you can tuck it into the to the response to the question. So it made us a little nerdy question but talk to us a little bit about the development of your thinking. I don't want to call it the evolution of your thinking, but the development of your thinking, or maybe the interconnectedness of your thinking.

The Exile book, and what we heard tonight, is at the end of a decade working on sexuality issues. And before that, I think it was before that, a book on pacifism. So you do, as you just said, and I appreciate you naming that, have some pretty strong Anabaptist vibes. Exile is a metaphor, biblically, that resonates really nicely with the Anabaptist vibe. Can you talk about the connection between pacifism, your work on sexuality, exile, and the Anabaptist vibe? Oh gosh, okay. Shortly, raised Republican-only Christian, did that for a while, realized I didn't think that was biblical, peeked in the door of the other side, realized it's the same song, different tune, you know.

And then I really just saturated myself in the Bible, largely through looking at of the other side, realized it's the same song, different tune, you know. And then I really just saturated myself in the Bible, largely through looking at nonviolence, saw how interconnected that was with nationalism. And so that led, honestly, after writing my book on nonviolence 11 years ago, that sort of began me on a journey saying this is so deeply rooted in more of a political theology, so that's where this book came about. I've never been inside, I've never stepped foot in the Anabaptist Church. So when I say Anabaptist it's just an easy way for you to understand where I'm coming from but it really is, it's gonna sound pretentious,

but actually it comes from just reading, I've only read maybe two Anabaptists my entire life, it comes from just reading commentaries on the Bible. I have a friend who thinks it's a sin to vote. I'm definitely not there. I'm not. Pragmatically, I live in Idaho. Pragmatically, my vote doesn't matter. They say, no, no, you need to vote on principle. Here's my principle. And this is a suggestion.

This is me thinking out loud, noodle over it. I imagine a United States of America where politicians knew that Christians didn't vote. I wonder if they would stop pandering to even the evangelical church as a source for their grasp for power. as a source for their grasp for power. My opting out of the system is me participating in that imagination of what that world could look like. It's not an airtight argument or whatever, it's just kind of like, uh, I agree. Maybe I can ask one other question and we'll go. Talk to us about the double reality of being a Christian. So you were talking about the politically-laden language of the New Testament, and Caesar is curious, etc., etc., etc. And then you said, and Caesar is kind of Lord, right?

Like you kind of called him, Caesar is kind of Lord, like acknowledging, and you said, the earthly reality, right? Yes. There is a... And that's kind of exposing the fact that there is a double to our experience. Jesus is Lord and we are under earthly Lords. How do you make sense of the doubleness and the metaphor of exile? Does it push you to do a kind of singleness and release the tension of the doubleness? Or how do you think about that? Do you see what I'm trying to drive at? I do. I love this conversation and I want to just keep it

as an ongoing conversation because I'm not totally sure. I will say this, I make a firm distinction between submitting to governing authorities, being a good citizen, and the concept of allegiance. So my allegiance is to Christ, which means it can't be to any other authority, but because Jesus is Lord, I can submit to government authorities, turn the other cheek, pay my taxes, you know. So it's not this kind of citizenship. It's more like this. Or even, I would push it further. You had this, Patrick Shriner talks about, you know, submission and subversion as this tension of the Christian identity. I almost want to push a little further to say we subvert by submitting. My submission, and Walter Wink talks about this,

my turning out the other cheek is actually kind of giving a finger to, if I can say that, giving a finger to this silly attempt to conquer me through violence, you know. So I do think that there is that subversiveness built into my submission to the government authorities. But yeah, of course there's, like, I love C.S. Lewis's quote that you quoted. It's a necessary evil.

I like that tension. I'm not a complete anarchist in the sense that you open up a power vacuum and somebody's gonna step in. So it is a necessary evil, but I would still want to say necessary evil. Yeah, anyway. Thank you. Why don't we pop over here? Thank you so much, Preston. First, I have a real question, but are you guys wearing the same shoes? Almost, almost. Okay, okay, okay. We had this conversation earlier.

I love the passage from Jeremiah, and I've always really been struck by the like 70 years of struck by that like 70 years of burying people and leaving them in Babylon. And there's just really this like shared trauma and generational trauma. And it really does remind me of something that you alluded to of kind of learning from people who are foreigners. So I was wondering if you

could just share any specific values that you feel like we as the American Church can learn from our brothers and sisters. Ooh, so good. The book I referenced, Daniel Smith Christopher, Religion of the Landless, he talks a lot about the sociological, even trauma, collective trauma, and what that does to your religious identity. It's really, I thank you for bringing that up. There's some really good stuff in there about that. And yeah, I think this is where immigrant churches, or if you go historically, especially black churches,

and as a white guy I don't want to go, you know, but I mean when you are clearly a visible minority and you are clearly have lived under oppression, like that just shapes your Christian political faith in such biblical ways. I have spent the last year having hours and hours of conversations with Palestinian Christians in particular. And they've taught me so much about what it is to live out a faith under the, let's see, here we go. Yeah.

About empire and what it means to live out your faith and that, yeah. I don't know if that totally answers your question, but I think- It's a big question. Yeah. I think majority people living in a majority culture should be begging to learn from non-majority people.

So out of sensitivity to time, let's see, and sensitivity to the folks who are there, let's see, and sensitivity of the folks who are there, let's see if genuinely, can we do like get right to the question? Can we ask you get right to the question? And can you? I'll try to be smooth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the 30 second or less? Yes, yes. Awesome. Okay, let's go. Hey, President, thank you. So I just am curious to unpack your Anabaptist stuff a little bit. Do you feel like that's just something at a national level? And are you comfortable with Christians

being involved in politics at a state level or at a local level? Thank you for that question. And for the record, I never said Christians shouldn't be politically involved, even at a, I'm still toying with that. How deep into Babylon could a Christian legitimately go? And I really don't know the answer to that.

Yes, I want to make it firm to, I think local politics, and this is Caitlin, where's Caitlin? Are you, you put that bug in my ear a couple years ago and I was like, I keep mulling over that. Yeah, I think there is a big, I think a big difference there, yeah. Yeah. Well, you really had me worried there, Todd.

I thought you were gonna have me sit back down. Yes. Um, but I'll be quick. You mentioned the dual citizenship comment, which I've heard from the pulpit a lot. Would you say that that analogy is not an orthodox analogy? And second half of the question would be, if we don't feel like sojourners,

even though we'll say we're sojourners, are we not living out our faith in our context? I think part of discipleship should be pushing into more and more of a sojourner mindset, because again, I think that is, I think it's biblical. And dual citizenship, it depends on what people mean by that. I don't like, usually that's kind of dual allegiance, dual whatever. I can, you know, live like a Christian at church and then, you know,

go drop bombs on other Christians over here, you know, like it's just, I don't like the, the... Your Christian values should be the same no matter what vocation you're in. So, I have a passport, I use it, I'm glad I have it, whatever, so there's an earthly reality of citizenship, but I still put that way subservient under my Christian citizenship. Let's go back over here, then to Joey, and then we got two more, we'll be done.

Yeah, so you mentioned, I remember you said there, revelation scholars who know Jewish backgrounds. I think you're right. Peter Lightheart, you know, he wants, and I'm sure you had him in mind when you were talking about people who don't know Jewish backgrounds. But Lightheart wants to say, it seems as I read him, that the exile that Israel was under under the old covenant is one of judgment. The faithful Israelite has taken judgment on himself.

And therefore the exile that Israel under the new covenant, which has been expanded to include the Gentiles and is the church, is not an exile stemming from judgment. And therefore it's a kind of exile in which the new Israel is pushing back the kingdom of darkness and therefore will one day like spread over spread over the nations how would you respond to that kind of argument from like I would I would need to I don't like giving thin answers the thick questions I I would need to really process that. It sounds pretty good from what I'm hearing.

I do want to make a distinction between theological, social, and political exile. Because theologically we have returned from exile. NT, right? I mean, Galatians 3, returned from exile. So theologically we have been restored. we're on the other side of Excel, but I think socially and politically we are still living in that kind of social political reality. And I do think that's what 1 Peter is getting at.

So I would need to really process the complexity of Lightheart's perspective there. Yeah, that's great. Joey. Okay. For those of us who are listening very closely to Dr. Wolf last night, and we heard many images

pointing to a redemptive, reparative understanding of Western civilization and even empire in some affirming ways. But tonight, you warmed us up for Dr. Foley that has a much more disparaging understanding of the history of Western civilization and American empire. It brings us to the question of ultimately redemption and repair. Burn the whole thing down and start over from scratch, which is a very Phoenix trope. What suggestion do you have for mitigating those two possible game plans? In 30 seconds. I want to make a distinction between... This is your campaign platform. I want to make a distinction between God God redeeming creation, redeeming Babylonians versus the demonized political systems.

You're a Bible guy, you've read the Bible. Is there any biblical evidence that God will redeem the empires? We see all throughout, whenever the Bible talks about empires, they're destroyed, and we celebrate that they're crushed. That doesn't mean of, you know, we see all throughout, whenever the Bible talks about empires, they're destroyed and we celebrate that they're crushed. That doesn't mean the destruction of necessarily all the people or whatever, or like the destruction of geography and lakes and rivers and creation,

but these worldly systems that will be destroyed. So I wanna make a distinction between those two. My whole reform, the new creation, you know, that's still very... I absolutely hold to that. Yeah. For the sake of time, I'll leave it at that. Related to that, my reading of Revelations that's written in the context of the mission persecution, the intensification of the Caesar cult, that is what seems to make the empire beast-like.

And you seem to be saying that that applies across time, across empires, but there's a very cultic nature in the Latin sense of religious veneration that compelling people in that way for the Caesar cult. So if that's the case, what parallels do you see today in a cultic nature where we must pay obeisance to the United States or any nation state that currently exists? Yeah, so the imperial cult where there was literal worship of the Caesar, we don't... We don't.

We don't have the same thing. I would say we have similar type vibes. We're not literally burning incense to blank or blank. I do think that there is a kind of allegiance to the empire of the United States that comes dangerously close to that. And that's what makes it beast-like. I think so. I think so. Yeah. I mean, we can all... I can go to any church and say, Repeat after me. I can't say it because I don't say it.

I pledge allegiance to any church. Now, let's do the Apostles' Creed. That's a problem. That's religious. It's a problem. That's religious. It's liturgical. And I think that that is almost akin to the imperial cult. Last question. Preston, totally appreciate everything you said.

I was amen-ing back there. But I can't get this out of my head. So just poke holes in it if it's wrong. But this is where I, it's a sharp question. If empires are demonically animated, it's Romans 13, why do they have the power of the sword? If the violence is the problem, if the domination is the problem, which I agree with you, then why is God like, here's a sword?

I'm really sorry. No, no, no, it's good. If you Google my name in Romans 13, you'll probably get a number of blogs I've written on this for my fuller answer. In short, I think Romans 13 is framed in the prophetic tradition, especially with calling Rome the servant of God. That was used often of Assyria and Babylon

when God used this demonically empowered pagan nation to execute judgment. So it's not some happy celebration of God using, you know, but that is one means by which God does use the empires to do what he... how he used Babylon to punish Israel as a fulfillment of covenant promises. So it's a proclamation of God is so sovereign, he can even use these wicked, evil empires to do his bidding is how I kind of understand Romans 13. Let's thank Presby. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. to the Converge Podcast Network.

Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day. And together, we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's word in a way that you can really understand it.

If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I started Haven the Podcast.

It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation. And we talk about everything from relationships, to parenting, to friendships, to even your view of yourself. And we don't have answers or solutions, but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven, the podcast.