Theology in the Raw - Exiles in Babylon Conference Recap with Street Hymns

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Watch Exiles in Babylon 2026 on demand! Join my Patreon community for bonus episodes, Q&As, exclusive content, and access to the Exiles videos. Street Hymns is a battle rapper, writer, spoken word artist, and creative voice who has been part of the Exiles Conference since the very beginning. In this episode, we sit down in person to debrief the recent Exiles Conference in Minneapolis, and talk about why gatherings like this matter in today’s cultural landscape.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Iran. My guest today is my friend Street Hymns, who is a battle rapper, writer and a spoken word artist who has been an integral part of the exiles Babylon conferences from the very beginning. And Street flew out to Boise to hang out with me and the fam. And so we decided to record an in-person episode where we banter around about the exiles conference and the topics that were discussed at the conference. We also talk about aliens and cloning human consciousness and other fun things. So please beware of what you're about to enter into. Also, the entire exiles conference, including the breakouts, is all available to watch on demand at theology in the raw.com.

Theology in the raw.com to access the video version of the entire exiles conference. We'll also be making them available for free on Patreon. for gold level supporters. Okay, so if you want to become a gold level supporter, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology and raw join up. And you also get access to all kinds of other things like extra innings, episodes, bonus, Q&A's, monthly meetups via Zoom and much, much more. Okay, please welcome back to the show, the one and only, Street Hems.

Street Hems, welcome back to Theology and Raw basement. You get the real look. This is it, man. This is a basement. Yeah, it's like a library, man. I'm loving it. With drapes everywhere. I mean, unfinished.

Who knows what spiders are going to fall on us here. But here we are, man. That's hilarious. Welcome back to Boise. Yeah, man. This is, I guess, third time, though? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So the Exiles conference was in Minneapolis, but you came out a couple weeks later, which is today in Boise. Yeah. Two weeks ago. Yeah, two weeks ago. Was it two weeks? Two weeks? Two weeks?

It was two weeks ago, yeah. May 1st, yeah. Yeah. Geez. Well, welcome to my home. Yeah, so no agenda. You and I, we love the banter, and sometimes we can get off track,

which is totally fine, but wanted to chat about exiles. We didn't debrief at all. I mean, we had to lunch after, but we were wiped and just hanging out, and then you skipped off to the airport. I stayed, you know I stayed after the preacher of the church? I stayed a day after too.

Well, he did, that's right. Yeah, I stayed a day after. Yeah, I didn't skip out this. Because I thought everybody was going to hang. A week-long party, weekend party? Everybody just kind of tizzy it out. Yeah, I was like, all right, it's cool. So let's go through the conference.

And it's such a world win. And, you know, both of, you know, me on stage, sometimes it's hard to kind of get a vibe because you're so focused, you know. So there was probably a lot happened that it's hard for us to even recall. but let's go through the sessions. Did you go to the pre-conference on AI and the church? I missed most of that. You missed most of that?

I miss most of that. I was practicing. You were writing. I was writing. You were writing. It's facts. I was writing practicing. Yeah, absolutely.

This guy is writing and rewriting five minutes before he's about to go. That's not an understatement, right? No, no. Not at all. Yeah. As long as the production team let's be in, I'll keep changing stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

So for those who don't know, if you're a new listener or have never been known Exiles, Street has been a vital component of Exiles from the very beginning, basically does several spoken words connected with various topics we discussed. Yeah. And yeah, so we met at another conference years ago and heard you speak. Because like, dang, that if I ever did the conference, this is my first phone call right here. So, yeah. It's so funny. I know you're about to go.

What? Yeah, this is such a white point. I'm like, hey, so can you come do this spoken word? And I don't think you even told me, but I later found out. I never told you I even did spoken word. Yeah, I never heard. And I'm like, yeah, but you do like rap and battle and whatever that is. It's all the same thing, right?

Yeah, he thought battle rap spoken word was. kinship and I was like, nope. But I'm glad you took the risk. What are you to risk? It was misconception. It was a great misconception. Oh, man. That was so funny. I thought you're a professional battle opera or professional spoken word guy. But anyway, now you are? Yes. I truly I will say now, but at the time you booked me, I would have, I literally

would never call myself spoken about. And you didn't want to tell me, I'll do something. Yeah, and then, and of course, the first year you have me is you have Jackie Hill Perry on the lineup. I'm like. Francis Chan was there. Yeah, I'm like, man, you got actual spoken word artists here, and I'm sitting here trying to figure it out. So, funny. So you've been back at every single conference. You do three basically spoken words throughout the conference.

Dude, man, I mean, and this is not just my, this is, I mean, this is a unanimous opinion that you absolutely, not only crush it every time, but add a vital, just a vital piece to the conference because we're trying not just to do a conference conference, you know, just talking heads and. whatever, but like try to mix in, you know, poetic angles on the various things we're talking about, you know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, man. After exploring authorship and creating characters, my friend asked me one time, it's like, hey, so how do you decide what the character is going to do?

and not to sound like mystical, but the best way I can put it, I really don't. Because, for example, if I have a Muslim character in the story I'm creating, and by the end of it, if the desires were up to me, you know, everyone lives happy lever after, they accept the gospel, and then they become a missionary. But in reality, that's not always the case.

So how do I tell the narrative of this character, given their circumstances, given the context of where they're coming from, in the midst of the environment that I'm creating in the world that I've just built. And so you just let the story just carry, and you let the character carry. And so I learned-

So the character almost develops itself as you're exploring the character? Yeah, yeah. Irrespective of my own desires a lot of times, you know, for the specific character, which makes things weird. But I say that to say, through authorship, I learned

that I actually have a gift of that because a lot of the pieces I do that are the most impactful even a spoken word are pieces where I play a character. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the character isn't even my thoughts a lot of times. You know, it's just like, for example, I remember, I know we're skipping a couple of days,

we can go back, circle back to it, but the debates you had on the war between Sean and who was a... Shane Claibble. and Paul Copan. Paul, yeah. So after I did my spoken word piece, Paul came to me, he's like, hey man, I know you,

my Philism type of way, but I really do, I love what you had to say. I said, Paul, I was more on your side. I was like, but I, but as the character,

I wanted to portray, like everyone can relate to the homeless man who was a veteran. Right. That was either dealt a bad hand or was forced into a situation where he had to do things

he didn't want to do. It doesn't matter what side you're on. We all have seen the result of that person. And so whether it be that character, or playing the narcissist or playing a follower of Barabbas and I used to follow Jesus, you know, like being able to like tap into, I know this is a tough topic,

but there's a point in which people can relate whether you agree or disagree. What character, what place can I put myself in, what perspective can I put myself in, even if it's apart from my own. So that's kind of like the angles I've been taken. And now I'm able to do it more intentionally, kind of, you know, because I'm like, oh, well, this is something I do very well. Let me keep leading in it.

So, yeah. Well, that's what I love about your art. I mean, you don't, like, all your spoken words on topics, even some that are controversial, or maybe there's different sides presented. You're not taking a side. You're exploring the topic from a, like, a narrative point of view to get people just to be embodied and think. But that, like you said, when you embody a certain thing.

character the war better or whatever like you're not you're not trying to say this side was better than that side or make even like a like a like a give you like a like a conclusion about the topic you're trying to get us inside the topic right and feel it yeah yeah yeah I love it man yeah yeah that's so funny so A on the church so that was a pre-conference A on the church um it was super awesome we had a one speaker unfortunate at the last second she got yeah had a had a medical emergency so she couldn't come, so we had two speakers address that. And while, yeah, we can move on to other ones that you were a part of, but it was, here's the tension with that, I guess just the topic as a whole is much of what was said

alerted us to a lot of the negative things about AI all the way down to like the data centers that pollute the earth and the community and spend so much energy. And you're positive? But then all of us were like, yeah, but you know, chat GPT is amazing. How do I live with that? And everybody's like raving about,

it's like on the one side we're like talking about all the negatives. But then saying it's not, it's not, it's, there's good things too, you know, but then when we'd talk about it was largely negative. But then all of us were like, yeah, and it's also amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's, I just, for me, I don't know where the line is between using AI for good, using AI in a neutral way, maybe that, like, good or bad. It's just, it is what it is, like using Google or something, you know, and then using it in a negative way, where it's actually forming you in negative ways. And I just, and maybe there's no, I don't think there's any answer to this, but I just kind of want to know, like, is my fairly, limited use of AI, but I still use it, mainly like chat GPT and stuff. Well, everybody uses it on some level, yeah.

But I just want to know, like, when am I using it in a way that's not good? And maybe I think that's just going to be an ongoing question. I don't know if there's a black and white answer to that. Yeah, definitely not a black and white answer to it, especially considering AI is only going to pool from what's publicly or academically available. And so if there are academic biases, it will pull from academic biases. You know, based on what's commonly out there and you have to give that extra little push. But there's this resource that says the exact opposite.

You know, you're right. I don't think they were challenged AI before. I love debating AI. I don't know. You can do that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, like, if you feel like a polarizing topic or like, let's say I want to.

ask about an opposing religion. Typically, they're going to speak positively on a side or perspective that speaks highly of that religion from an educated standpoint, including Christianity. And it's not until you start giving pushback where you're like, yeah, but doesn't their text say this? Didn't this person who developed this religion do this? Yes, you're right. Actually, given more information, and then they'll start to pull more and more out. I think what I find interesting, not that I'm educated to talk on AI too much, but I saw the speech of the guy who's like the grandfather AI when he got the Nobel Peace Prize and his warning to all the officials and like royals and leaders was just, hey, if we don't put restrictions on this, it'll take over the world. Yeah, yeah. You know, like very literally like it felt like Terminator, I robot, Matrix, very level conversation of yes, this will develop a much.

line of its own and it will start to do on its own if we don't put restrictions on there. So I'm interested to see how things start to move forward with the concept of AI, given this political climate and global climate. They addressed that a little bit. I think neither the speakers who are experts in it thought that Terminator 2 situation, a Matrix, they're like, yeah, probably not. But it doesn't need to be that for AI to take over things in a not. in the, you know, Terminator 2 way, but take over the way we go about living as humans in God's

creation. I think it has a potential of being, having a massive effect. I was just thinking today or yesterday about how, you know, social media, you know, became so popular in the 20 teens. It was actually like social media, you know, social connections, connected friends and family, blah, and now it's kind of turned into this cesspool of stuff. Algorithms are getting people just super angry and afraid and siloed in their, you know, little bubbles and stuff. It's, we've seen to, and this comes into another session we did mental health, but I mean, it's done, it's wrecked havoc. Yeah.

On Gen Z. And now, you know, 10 years after the, you know, boom, now we're realizing this is damaging our kids. We need to have restrictions. We need to start pulling cell phones out of school, raise the age, you know, there's all these discussions. Okay, so that's 10 years after we saw the damage. we're at the beginning of the AI boom, really.

And everybody's just kind of racing forward. And it's like in 10 years, I mean, I'm going to prophesy that we're going to be in the same bait. Like, whoa, boat. Like, we're going to be like, oh my gosh, this is wrecking havoc in ways that maybe people did foresee, but there didn't put the restrictions or put some kind of guard rails around it.

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Exclusions do apply. I think a lot of the criticisms we have of Gen Z, Gen Alpha, are based on our perception of them, but seeing ways in which they're not responding to things that we would have responded to is also pretty cool. It's also just like their perspective of mental health when we had zero perspective of mental health. Yeah. You know, and it's like they're learning as we're learning and some of their learning isn't from us. So it's almost like they're getting it within their own framework minus the context of how we want it filtered, you know, which I think will have some benefits and also some detriments, you know. Because they have a generation where they can have all the resources without the covering, without the necessity of having somebody guide them through it and teach them.

It's like, no, I could just get it by myself. You know, I can find this on my own. need you as a teacher. I don't need you as a mentor. You know, those types of things. So it'll be interesting to see how it does play out in the next generation. But I don't know. I don't know if it's going to be as bad as Terminator or but I don't know. I don't know how much weird you want to take this. But look, I don't think it's coincidence. Let's climb inside Street's head here for a second. This is a enter at your own risk. Go ahead. Yeah, man. I truly don't think this is coincidence that we're finding out about

UFOs and releasing of like documents related to extraterrestrial around this specific climate. I think that it's very intentional and I think whatever introductions to whatever beings that they'll call you know aliens I think the Bible has different names for what you know foreign beings spiritual beings? You think UFO aliens or spiritual beings? Oh, absolutely. 100%. Yeah, have you seen the...

Yeah. What, the files are they sort of released? Yeah, they've been releasing those for years. Well, the past couple years, but there are Mach 5 jets that are keeping up with these vessels that they'll literally shoot with missiles, and they're like almost light blobs. They'll just separate,

and then reform back together. Seriously? As they're going on video or not a video or just testers? We have it on video. And then we have testimonies of people in Congress talking about it. Yeah, this is military leaders are like, have you ever seen anything like this? No, this is something that is.

Now mind you, it's so weird that when we see a light blob flying at mock speed, an American's perspective is let's shoot it. So that goes to show me, whatever these things are, they know they're being watched, they know they're being followed, they're being shot at and they're not doing anything back. So not aliens from another planet. You're saying beings from another dimension.

I mean, spiritual beings. Spiritual beings. Spiritual beings. It was like with all principalities, powers, angels, demons. Yes. Which I think is just history repeating itself. It's just now it's more public. I think every era of humanity has had

what we would call extraterrestrials involved. You know, I don't know. This is me. I'm looking at the ancient things in Komet, you know, watching the pyramid, seeing these little beings and like, who are these little things? And hearing other cultures talk about specific types of mythological beings. I'm like, it seems as though it's a common trait throughout history that there are these things that aren't human that are involved in some type of narrative, you know.

And I think the Bible also talks about those things. You know, I don't think, I don't think Goliath was just a really tall guy. You know, I think that he was, like the Bible says, was a spawn of, you know, related to Nephilim, you know, things like that. So, you've been reading a lot of Heiser, haven't you? Yeah, I do read a lot of Heiser, man. I do. Which, like I said, I think, and it's kind of like the, not to get too deep, but it's kind of the, was the crux. of like me writing my manga, like how do I respond to transhumanism?

Because what transhumanism will say is what God calls good, man will make better. Like man has a deadline to their humanity. Elon Musk says within his lifetime, he's confident that we'll be able to upload our human consciousness to a cloud and then download that consciousness to a different vessel. thus unlocking immortality in that sense. So let's just say hypothetically, a leader, I'm not saying any country specifically,

but a leader starts to put different types of qualifications of what it means to be alive, on what it means to be human, you know, and that entity, that leader, is a leader for a prolonged time, but that person, quote-unquote, dies, but they transfer their consciousness to another vessel. Technically, they would still be the leader.

So let's just say that one leader could then rain. That's like the movie Get Out without the racism, man. Exactly, you know. Or what was the foundation? You know what I'm saying? Except it's not cloning. It's just the same person, just, you know. But I think, but it's just funny hearing the people with a lot of power

in money talk very confidently about immortality. Yeah, yeah. About transhumanism and being able to amplify what God is called good and saying, yeah, that's good, but let's make what God called good better. This is where you have this mixing of DNA, mixing of concepts, mixing of, you know, which in the Holy of Holies was the only place where mixing was allowed, you know. And so now we get into mixing outside of that. And I think that was the whole concept of the, of the book.

Bible narrative, boundaries weren't just a sin because it's wrong. It's just something that God said, I don't want you doing this because I want you to cherish what I've called good.

So in other words, I don't think eating pork is a sin. I think it was just a boundary for his people so he could show that there is something different. Something that you may do

or communicate to your wife that you might be able to communicate to other women your wife's like, yeah, I don't like when you say that. It's just a boundary between y'all two. So anytime you do it to her, it's a sin. I think the same with God. It's like, yeah, no mixed fruits, no mixed clothing. But when you're in the Holy of Holies, you can mix.

That was the priest's clothing. The priest's clothing was mixed. You know, and so there is a mixing in the heavens because the Holy of Holy was the heavenly place, essentially, where Jesus' consciousness. where Jesus comes down and literally visits in the mercy seat. And then you go into heaven and this being with this type of eyes and these type of wings and this man.

And it's like there's a lot of mixing going on in there. But for some reason, he's like, I don't want y'all mixing. Well, and that's the Genesis 6 mixing of angelic beings. Exactly. In my, in my opinion. He means. No, no, I think he's right on that. I think he's dead right on that.

Yeah, yeah. We did not talk about this at X-I. We did talk about AI, right? Data centers in AI. Yeah, yeah, but it's not, it's AI, I could see AI transhumanism, alien. I mean, it's, it's, they can get all intersect, man. I think it all intersect, man. I don't, like, how would you be able to, look, man, they were cloning sheep when I was in elementary school, right?

Yeah. Do I really think they stopped at sheep, number one, and stopped at all? I think, I think, I think that if we'll be able to transfer human consciousness, that means the soul, could be not replicated but transferred. I think if we're able to clone bodies, that means we have at least the duality of a trinity of a man, which is the soul and the body. But the one thing you can't transfer or replicate is the spirit.

But if you had a body that had a conscious, I do know some beings that don't mind dwelling inside of a body that has a conscious, you know, one that's demon possession of the gospels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think when it gets to that point, that potentially could be, it's just my, you know, my big leap, theologically, y'all could say, where it talks about we won't be able to tell the difference. It'll be the angels that will have to come and separate the wheat from the tear? Like, how will we know a human that has the conscience of a human but is actually a different spirit?

We wouldn't know. I think this actually takes something outside of our own knowledge and ourselves. Let's reel this back. We're wandering way outside of my specialty. Thursday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pre-conference. So the first session of the conference,

immigration and the church, you reopened that session. Yeah. The killer spoken word. Had everybody confused? I'm a fan, so I'm biased. Indeed. You got good feedback on that one.

Oh, I got really good feedback on that one, man. That was, I knew that was a good one, though. When I wrote it, when I finished writing it, I ran it by a couple of my spoken word friends, and they were like, where'd you get that idea? And it's funny, I had the idea. Can you explain what you did? Yeah, so essentially, I timed the spoken word with a sound effect, and it was a sound effect of a smoke detector. And growing up in households, especially black households, it's kind of like a little trope. within the black community, like you can hear somebody have a smoke detector in their house,

but if you call them out on it, they won't even know. Because you get so used to the sound that it's no longer alarming. So something that's supposed to be alarming to you is no longer a threat or a warning of danger. It's just normative. So I played the character of America inviting people into my house and wanted to have this alarming sound that everyone else could hear. but I just acted like wasn't even a thing. You know, and so I'm seeing the crowd react, look up like, hey, is this supposed to be going on?

As I'm just doing this poking word about, hey, welcome to my house. Such a beautiful place. And only the sound people do, and that was it. Okay, okay, no. Including me. He didn't know. I'm there in the front row, furiously texting, Katrice, down people. I'm like, what the heck?

I'm a pretty easygoing guy. But when there's something, like, when something is just not being addressed, it drives me crazy. And so I was literally, I was gonna, I was fuming. Which was the reaction I wanted to pull out. Oh, you got it. Like, because, I mean, think of, like, and that's where like I bought it back.

I had somebody in the crowd that kind of just like broke the fourth wall. I was like, hey, shut up and change the smoke detector. I was like, smoke detector. It was staged. It was all stage. And then I went and grabbed the smoke detector. And then I, you know, I said, I'm sorry.

Something that was supposed to warn me became so deafening. The beeping of hunger, the beeping of homelessness, the beeping of helplessness, the beeping of selfishness. You know, and so like, just putting people in the literal reaction of this is annoying, take care of this. As you then get real back into the second half of the piece where I'm like, it is. but I've grown deaf to it. That's why I don't care. And I ended off with, it's funny how it takes a stranger to tell you

it's time to change. You know? And just like the... It took a while. Like I was like, oh, like I put it in the pieces together at the end and then seeing how they come together. I was like, oh, my word.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you think of that, geez? Oh, man. So it's funny. The concept of the smoke detector I had before I had it connected to that piece, I was going to do a piece on just black culture

and trauma and like me allowing this beeping to be something that is annoying, but I kind of just address it in the piece in different ways. But as I was writing mentally the night of at the, at the, where we're getting wings, I saw it in the country. I was like, man, you think I could run the smoke detector and do the sound effect? He was like, sure. I mean, you can do whatever street. He's like, you got a long leash, man. He forgot to tell me about that. And so, so yeah, he's, I thought about it. I was like, you know, what? I'm going to do this. And I, you know, like, wrote a couple of bars and I went to sleep, woke up the next morning, I started writing, and I was like, okay, this is it. And then I polished

it up while I was there and sent it into the team. And then I kind of like, I did the piece myself and would just line up the beeps where I thought it'd be appropriate. But I will say watching it back live, the beeps line, it executed very well. It timed out very well. Because three seconds off or two seconds off, it can really throw the whole thing off. You know what I'm saying? Because it's the beeping. But it lined up perfectly, man.

So it was a fun piece. The rest of the session, so we had a couple speakers, Liliana and then Matt's, Lillianna Raza, Matt Sorens, Liliana gave kind of a, she addressed more the personal side of it than that gave a lot of the,

just a lot of like data. A lot of like, kind of just, what are the facts? Facts. Yeah, about immigration. You know, hear all these things. You know, it's a drain on the economy, undocumented immigrants committing crimes, and yada, yada, y'all.

We're all familiar with those. And I thought he was, yeah, very calm, just like, very data heavy in a good way, because I think we do need that. That needs to be a piece. So, yeah, I enjoyed that session. I didn't get any, I don't think I got any negative feedback. I don't know what the negative.

I did talk to one guy who questioned one of the facts, said, well, that applies to this demographic, but not that one or whatever. And I'm sure there probably could be pushbacks to, with any data or study, there's always another study or whatever. But he seemed really thorough. Even during the Q&A, somebody, a great question came up about the difference between a sojourner

and a resident alien in, the Old Testament. There's two different Hebrew words. One is kind of a gentile living in the land. Another one's like one passing through the land. And people have kind of used that to talk about legal migrants and undocumented migrants. I think they apply it that way. And that was during a Q&A. And he's like, yeah, you know, there was a study done. You know, he named the guy the study of the date who said that. Here's a counter study who says that it's more complex than that. I'm like, oh, wow. Like he, yeah, he wasn't just shooting from the hip, but I think that conversation would be a lot smoother if people either way just love people better. And I think that's the biggest issue. I think it's less about what defines an immigrant, but how we're treating.

If we're identifying as Christians, especially those who will call this a Christian nation, how are we treating immigrants? Like treating them, loving them. Like, are we transitioning them lovingly? Are we housing them lovingly? Are we imprisoning them lovingly? Things like that. Like, no matter how I think that's like the biggest thing. And I think it would be a way different conversation if things were handled in love, which I just don't see that.

So, yeah. That was a big thing. There's like a big, there's like almost two different categories. One is how do we think about national policies around immigration? Number two, how should Christians respond to an immigrant in front of you with or without documentation? You know, those are, I mean, they're not completely separate, but those are kind of two different categories. And it's like if you're kind of addressing this category, somebody asked you a question about this category and you address that category over there, it's like, I think we need to understand that there's kind of two overlapping, but different conversations here.

I think Christians can have different views on political policy. It might be some kind of policies that are just intrinsically inhumane. But I think, yeah, disagree on different policies. And there's good questions to be raised, but there's no question. I don't think about what the Bible says about how to treat the sojourner and resident alien in your midst. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has a lot to do with a lot to do with, like, making sure where there's lack, we can step in.

Right. Yeah, and it's funny because, like, you know, somebody who, myself, I'm like, and it was interesting, like riding a piece, I'm like, okay, so I'm not anti-borders. I'm not anti, you know, qualifications, restrictions, things like that, that are fair. But also on the other end, I'm like, I can't look at what we're doing now and say that this is Christian. And so what's the middle ground I can find for this conversation? I'm okay, let me just be America, you know what I'm saying, and just kind of talk things on the perspective of like what I'm seeing. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Then we had a couple's local leaders who are immigrants, one was from Mexico, another pastor from Kenya, to give kind of a personal perspective. Yeah, I thought that was really good just to kind of humanize it. And in particular, you know, we did this outside of Minneapolis, the conference. And so I was really eye-opening talking to them about the recent ice crackdowns. What's the name for it? Operation something, I don't know, whatever.

There was a name for the, whatever. These names that they're coming here are just like. But yeah, it was really good because they were not just immigrants, but they pastor and lead whole communities of immigrants. And they hear them tell stories about how people were unjustly on any ethical level, unjustly treated, people that are citizens with documentation, being chipped off to detention centers and stuff. Separate from the children.

separated from their families and just treated in absolute inhumane ways. And then that caused just ripple effect of just legitimate fear among people. But then also stories of how the church and the area really stepped up. Church is even now bringing food to people that, you know, are kind of too scared to leave their house. And yeah, yeah, it's crazy doing that session. What wasn't? It wasn't. I said this at the beginning of the conference.

Like we planned that session a year ago. You know, we didn't, it wasn't like, oh, this is a hot topic in Minneapolis, let's do that. Like, we were, this is a topic that. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. We need to think about constantly, not just when it flares up in the news cycle, you know. Next session was mental health in the gospel. This is one I know, this is you've been thinking a lot about.

Yeah. I thought that one could not have gone better, man. Geez, the three speakers just the way they kind of overlap and complimented each other and just there were so many things that were said that I was I just couldn't write down fast enough like just mind-blowing statements you know Dan Allender yeah gave several more like whoa what yeah yeah yeah yeah and it kind of just goes to show the the beauty and variety of therapy yeah yeah you know um each them had different emphasis in the field and each of them had different approaches in how they address it in the field although it was cool like sitting behind them and they're seeing like the

agreeing on what they're talking about and just like you know even though one might not talk about that they affirm like oh yeah that's it go you know and it's just like man it's just so cool to see the how even the diversity within the field. But that's also one thing I found interesting that I never heard before. The diagnosis of mental health was never for the patient, but for communication of other psychiatrists to pass notes and say, hey, here are these patterns, be aware of this. And I was like, wow, I thought the diagnosis was just for our understanding.

He was like, no, it's for a doctor's help from one doctor to another. Like, hey, if you see this pattern, it's because I may have traced this within it. And it's like, wow, it's like even like the ambiguity of that, you know. It's just I've never heard that perspective, which, you know, now we're in a generation where the diagnosis is for the answer. Right. It's like, oh, well, this makes sense now because I have this, therefore this. And I need to live my life like this because I have this. And it's like, I don't know if that's.

That's how it's supposed to work, you know? So, yeah, that was very encouraging. That was a very encouraging session. I thought it was interesting towards the end. This is a question I often have is, you know, my generation didn't believe in mental health. Like, it was just, we were underdiagnosed. And my question is, but now it seems like, and I don't, I'm not an expert, but like, are we over-diagnosing, you know? Is it too much?

And, you know, I'm always sensitive to kind of the oligarchy system behind the big machine of anything, you know, whether it's agriculture, politics or, you know, big pharma, some people call it, you know, like, is that a thing? Or is that just like a conspiracy theory? And because it seems, you know, from the little I know, that, you know, there's financial incentive to giving diagnosis and prescribing things. That is so weird to me to know that, like, they'll get paid, therapists get paid more the more you diagnose. Well, I've heard that from a couple people in the field. That's wild. They said they've been at centers where doctors were diagnosing for all kinds of things. And like an assistant was like, this person doesn't that? Like, you're just going down and just trying to find stuff because they get, I don't know how it works, but there's financial incentives for that.

And then prescriptions and I don't. I don't know if it's worth. It seems like people are more unhealthy and more medicated than ever. So it kind of makes me wonder. Like, is it working? Like, but then I don't want to go back to like my generation or the boomers where it's like just stuff it down. Don't talk about you, you know. And then you.

Yeah. Like I said, we're the, we're the experiment, man. Next generation you can figure it out. It's, but that's just how that's how it goes, man. One extreme to the next. Yeah, exactly. I think it'll always be. I thought, I thought they all give it.

great balance. Are we over-diagnosing? Yes, absolutely. Do people need good therapy? Yeah, you know, and so it wasn't, it was, they really had a nuanced approach to that. But yeah, yeah, I thought that was helpful. All right, next session, the history of the Bible, Sandy Richter and Pete ends. This is the one that I have, I don't know, I feel, I, I, what do I I don't want to say. I felt like I could have handled moderating that session much, much better. And I actually lost sleep for the next couple nights. Really? Maybe not literally. Yeah, kind of sort of.

Just the concept of just like running it back in the head. The next 72 hours, I was like, ah, like, looking back, I'm like, oh, why didn't I say this and do this? And in talking to people, I mean, and the people I talk to you give me critical feedback. But there was an overwhelming positive response. Shocking to me. I thought I was going to have to clean up a lot of messes or, you know, but people seem to really like. I did hear some that were like, yeah, this really threw a friend of mine off. They didn't know what they did after.

So long story short, historicity of the Bible is a dialogical debate. Sandy Richter, Pete ends. and it was on the historicity of the Bible. Like, did these things happen? And they're focused on the Old Testament. And how do we know? What methodology do we develop to determine whether something is historical? What does that even mean?

It's historical when all history is theological. It's all interpretive. It's all, you know, narrative. There's always everything is, all history has a bias, including biblical history. If we're Christians, we just think it's a good bias, but it is a bias. And so Sandy Richter laid a, I mean, I thought one of those brilliant talks on the subject on what, how do we even understand ancient historiography?

Then Pete ends gave his talk and, you know, they don't line up on several things. They overlap in some areas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But on the couch, the convert, here's where I feel like I failed. The conversation shifted from historicity to theological. and moral claims made within that history. Specifically, we're talking about Genesis and we got back to the flood and then like when Pete was talking, he was like, you know, was there a flood? He's like, yeah, some kind of local catastrophe, flood, whatever. Like, yeah, we have other

pieces of evidence in the ancient world that testified to that. So yeah, I think there was some kind of, you know, some kind of flood thing that happened. And then, you know, then he kind of shocked everybody. maybe not shocked, but, you know, like, well, but obviously what the flood story says about God is not true. Like, God, you know, he's kind of like, you know, God just flies off the handle and wipes everybody out because they, you know, did some bad things or whatever. He's like, that's not the God I serve.

That's not the God of the Bible. Yeah. That's an ancient, Israelite perspective on God, but it's not the God I serve, you know. And that's what I should, here's what I should have done, okay? Instead of being the fish that took the bait and ran with it to the end of the pond. what I should have done

and said, man, that's a great question. That's not quite what we're talking about. Like kind of theological moral claims within the history, where we are, you know, we're here to talk about, did these things happen?

Did the flood happen? How do we know? Because that's what, you know, Sandy prepared a lot to talk about historicity. Yeah. She wasn't prepared to talk about, like, you know, how to assess theological and moral claims

within the Old Testament. How did she be fine with that? She was prepared for it, you know, but she wasn't. So I could tell, you know, she was like, wait, where are we going? Yeah. And I just let it go. I just let it run and try to clean up the mess at the end a little bit. Okay, but.

What do you think? Yeah. Because I know you'd be hard of yourself, but like, if it wasn't for the feedback that challenged the structure, would you have even noticed? I didn't notice in the moment. I didn't notice in the moment until probably 20 minutes. in which was getting towards the end of the conversation. Yeah. But we were all so,

then we were so deep into the moral claims. Yeah, the ethical aspect of who God is. And yeah, and that's the thing. Like, I think the tone of exiles has always been that to like allow conversation. Yes. And not to say, I felt like there was ample opportunity on both sides.

to reel it back in apart from you. But I also think that the theologian and both of you kicked in to be like, whoa. We're not doing that, right? Like, you know, this is a TikTok. But on the other end, I think the reason why people enjoyed it was because even though the topic was the topic,

kind of like how I view menus at the restaurant, it's like, oh, yeah, this is a good framework. but let's see if I can mix this with this. Can I put this in the pizza and maybe this? I know this goes on there. Street's being literal. Every meal I've had with you, it is a chore for this server. It's like, where do you source your sugar from in your lemonade iced tea?

That was me at the coffee shop this morning. It was like, hey, y'all got a mocha latte? They were like, yeah. I was like, okay, so is it syrup or is it powder? And you're like, well, it's a syrup that we make from powder. I said, hmm, is it dairy, though? And they were like, no, it's not. I said, that's what I want.

You know what I'm saying? And make it open. You know, and I just, I know what I want, you know. And if you have it, you have it. If not, you're not. But there's a framework. And so I think people enjoy just the umbrella of the topic. And then they love to kind of see where it goes based on these two deep thinkers and thought leaders, you know.

So I think that was the wrestle between those who enjoy. it mostly because I think I don't know I don't know if I don't know if people are only looking for academia in this in this season I think the character God is one thing but I do think that ultimately the topic would have benefited by staying within the framework but it's it's very weird I don't want to say unfortunate but it's weird that people benefited from it veering off yeah yeah yeah And I think maybe it would have been, I think what I should have done, actually, is rather than, rather than saying, let's bring it back, I probably should have stopped and said, you know, we're starting to go in a different direction. Do you two want to go there or do you want to go back?

Yeah. I think Sandy was saying, no, I really want to talk about, I came to talk about history, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, no, I mean, yeah, they were great, great questions, you know. a lot of stuff in Genesis that Pete pointed out that looks feels like political propaganda you know uh you know lots daughters having sex with their dad and having two sons that happen to be the two nations that at the time of writing were their arch enemies you know it's like yeah there there are some things in the Old Testament that feel that way um I guess where I would um and this

is something that this is hard for me as a host I'm trying to not participate because I don't want to make it like, like obviously I'm on the side of Sandy on this question. I don't want to be like two on one or whatever and a good host tries to moderate, not, you know, be a third guest. But there were a couple times I just, I couldn't help myself, you know, and I almost want. I think in those moments, it was because there was an obvious answer that you knew he could answer from the stance of Pete, but he was kind of like playing the gray. And it's like, it seems like even the perspective you could be giving like you're you're retreating it's like just just say it you know what saying and and i think it's like if you're going to play this side like at least but it's just like

well my my question was okay flood tons of you know there's violence everywhere they're all sinful so he wipes them out starts over does that does that feel weird to me yeah sure yeah that's you know it's not it's it's a little jarring but it's like okay but like on what's my to just say that's clearly not who God is. It's like, okay, what's the other authority upon which you are judging that framework on? It's a real question because there could be two different answers that. One could be just my intuition. I don't like a, you know, I can never serve a God like that. Well, Pete's a, he's a brilliant guy. It felt like that to be saying, but then there's another sophisticated argument that roots it in Jesus. Jesus shows us who,

God is, so anything in the Old Testament that doesn't look like Jesus is not God. Yeah. And then you get into, okay, so what are these statements? What do they mean and everything? Which I think kind of where Sean ended up to? Shane, Shane, Shane. I'm not exactly sure where he would go on that.

Because I think that was some things that he was getting challenged on as well. It was like, hey, so you have Jesus coming back in a white horse, so is that the same? Right, right. And it's like, how do you answering these questions? Because It's legitimate questions. It's like, it's valid pushbacks on those perspectives.

It's just like, no, no, no, my God's 100% peaceful. Anything that happens is human. And anything happens is from a response of a fallen world, you know. It just seems to, I mean, what would your Bible look like if you removed the credibility of all the statements to talk about God judging sin? Man. That would be like a Thomas Jefferson Bible, right? Where all the miracles he cut out or whatever. I mean, Trump Bible.

You're Trump. But again, let's go there. But I want to know what's your methodology for determining whether something is good or bad. Feed the poor, yes. You know, love your neighbor, yes. God judges somebody for doing something wicked. Well, on what basis are we judging that? So that was my only, so he, I got lured in because I'm, is you really interesting to me, man.

It was like, come on, man. Come on, there's got to be something there. He didn't give anything no. Yeah. It was a tune in for, stay tuned for next time on TikTok. Yeah. You know, so I'm interested to see people's responses when it gets posted publicly.

Because I don't even know what segment you would post on like a reel, a three-minute reel. Like, what do you post on that conversation? I don't know. I don't be cool to see what Contra does with that. Yeah, good luck. I don't know. Then the other videos will be available.

They should be available maybe by the time this is released. Okay, the last one. Yeah, Christians in war, Shane Claiborne. It was more of, again, a dialogical debate. Shane Claiborne representing a more anti-war perspective. Paul Copan, just war. Two extremely different presentation styles. Yeah, for sure.

I appreciate both styles. Shane, extremely charismatic, compelling, you know, very energetic. Paul, you know, scholar, lots of, like, really challenging arguments, you know. So, and I felt like topic-wise, I love the presentation, the representation. I would say they were kind of, they kept kind of addressing somewhat different issues. Shane kind of alerting Christians to, you know, the reasons why we cannot support the Warren Iran, the war in Gaza, these, like how there's so much evil.

going into the wars that nations engage in today. Exactly. Where Paul was deep into the biblical text, there was room for using force and violence in certain contexts to address evil. And so there were, I think a lot of what Shane was saying, and I think I even said this, like, I don't know if Paul would necessarily disagree with that, you know. So I, it would have been interesting to have another hour

where they actually kind of address each other's points head on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I enjoy it. But you said you lined up with Paul, huh? More? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm from Texas, man. Obviously self-defense is pretty big on there. Nah, it's interesting.

I talked to Paul afterwards. I was like, man, like, hearing Shane talk, my perspective is 100% I wish everyone was like him. Right, yeah. Because if everyone was like him, then there wouldn't be violence. But to know.

that for though the violent take by force I'm like so how do I intervene when someone who is one violent person that can infect the masses approaches and I think one could legitimately claim and feel inside that you know to allow the violence to happen and be an example of martyrdom to die for your faith is a great example but I don't think all cases of Christians dying is martyrdom you know and so so like violent using violence in in defense of the innocent who's me yeah yeah that's always that that is the I think that's the only case yeah I think that's the only case I can ever see violence you know ever be whatever would be justified in that aspect like um

Which is also why as much as I would agree with Paul, I have a hard time agree with Paul in a modern context. Like on a national, like, so like national just war, but if you take it on an individual level, I was saying that. Yeah, individual is it's easier because I know my heart and I can, I can judge that. I can't judge that like to if you do research on the perspective of the Vietnam War, from the soldiers. They're like, we still don't know why we were there. And I'm shooting at somebody simply because they're shooting back. And they're initiating, but I don't know why I'm attacking this person.

This child just ran at me and I had to shoot him. And then these people are going home, ending their own lives, having this emotional turmoil, ending up on the side of the streets. And it's like, what were we there for? You know, the purple guy of the purple heart, like the highest honor. He's like, that could have been avoided, and it could have ended a lot sooner. And it's almost like, even when we can claim a just war, the fact that we can be a part of a nation that attaches war to religion. Yes.

To me, that's low-hanging. That's a should be an obviously. And that's why I did my spoken word piece. I was like, Christians make excellent soldiers. Yeah. Because from our infancy, we're taught how to submit. How to just obey and do what we're told, you know, and even the toxicity behind that. So by the time you end up going into war, it's like, yeah, I've been prepared for this my whole life.

You know, and it's, yeah, man, I think, yeah, as much as I, like I said, as much I even want to agree with Paul's perspective, I think the dangerous thing is to, in my opinion, is to end off with that is why America can have a just war. that is why did he quite say that I don't think so okay I think the result I think the end result

like I said people make a big claim for self-defense but then we speak on behalf of America oh we're every culture We vacillate between

we make an individual argument and then we kind of just quickly apply it connected to them well this is our land this is our home this is we have a right to defend our

and I'm like okay but when we then so Native American should have slaughtered every European stepping foot on their land, right? And that would have been just. When is the expiration of that?

You know, like, can they fight back knowing there's intruders still in their home today? That's the case, you know? And so it's just, I don't know, it's one of those things where it gets really, really gray when we're talking about corporate. Yeah, yeah. You know, because it's easy to say a corporate war

because God told you to go fight. Yeah. But then what if you want to go fight but God doesn't go before you? Right. We see that happens in the Bible. I can't even. I can't even.

I don't think. you can rationalize a justified war in a modern context. Yeah. I can't, you know. And it's questionable whether there ever has been a just war. Oliver O'Donovan, big just war theory scholars, says history knows of no just wars. It's like this criteria that we should strive for. But there are no just, like wars are always going to violate that.

Don't target combatants, you know. People think like, well, World War II, you know. Like the good war. It's like we nuke 200,000 civilians. Yeah. Like we violated 200,000 times and then Dresden and, you know, like you can pick any war and you're going to find tons of violations of. We denied bombing a schoolgirl, like, like, like, Iranian school girls. Yeah. For how long until it was like, oh, we're still doing research?

We know it was us. What are we talking about research for? What else is? Like, and I'm sitting here like, wait for the stats, wait for the data, wait for the, you know, and I'm sitting here. You know, and I'm sitting here like, man, this is, this is, this is pathetic. You know what I'm saying? Like, we can't at least recognize our wrong. Yeah.

And this is, this, this just goes to show the flaw in trying to make it about justice and make it about, oh, but you see how wicked they are. It's like, what do they think about us? We just bombed schoolgirls. We had a preemptive strike on a country. And this is where, you know, I even said, like, according to just war theory, Iranian Christians should support Iranians should support Iran. because they were they were struck first. Whatever we think about the government or whatever, it's like, well, okay, well, they fought back

because they were struck first. So should Iranian Christians support Iran in their, you know, like, and this is my biggest beef with this whole conversation is when it's happening in America, we just read it through American lens. I'm like, no, no, no. Let's develop a way of thinking that applies to all Christians living in all nations. Yeah, Israeli Christians exist,

Palestinian Christians exist. Iranian Christians exist. And then it gets really messy. I'm giving a gun at my brother. You have Christians supporting their respective nations in the wars when they're sometimes against each other. I mentioned that in the poker word too, you know. I don't really like, unaware if this is my brother on the other side of this gun, you know, still blasts and it's just.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, like I said, I agreed more with Paul, but I think in a modern context, Shane makes 100% sense. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, like, how, how do I do? On an individual level, obviously it's much easier.

But on a corporate level, how can I support any of this? Yeah. Well, that's what Shane kept. He really was singularly focused on American Christians supporting America's wars. Or Paul was focused on what does the Bible say about, is there ever a place to use violence in certain scenarios? It would have been fun to see them kind of address each other more directly. But I think both of those are really important conversations.

Yeah, and it's hard sometimes to get them to intercept. Shane had to preach, Paul had to teach. That's it. That's what Shane was preaching, man. It's funny when I talk to people who resonated with it. It really depends on your personality. People that are very data-driven, very like, they want to get all the arguments. They're like, no, I kind of like Paul, you know, and people that want to see passion and kind of, like, really irrefutable, like, points given, you know.

I've been arrested for people. been arrested for peace. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, I'm in a nation that will arrest me for talking about peace. Think about that, you know? How do you argue with the result? It's like, man, like, yeah, you're on the front lines fighting for peace, fighting for love and being persecuted for peace.

How do you argue with that, you know? Yeah. You got a point. Any of the thoughts of exiles, man? Maybe time. Oh, man, absolutely. Yeah. Me, any of people?

Meet some old friends. I brought a new friend You know My boy Malachi Yeah Shout out to Malachi Yeah Malachi came through

Man You had a good time Oh yeah Oh man I think that was I think it was perspective changing For him

You know Being around Christians Who allowed Diversity and thought I think that was polarizing for him Because it's

You know Especially He wasn't raised that way Well he was Malachi Raised Christian grew up Christian and

being a gay man himself leaves the church in the aspect of like not culturally because I think he culturally loves the church I think he just biblically and religiously just understands that he can't play both sides

and because for him being genuine is so big to his core being it's like it's funny we're out to lunch with some some people that were attending to the exiles conference and some of them were like, well, you know, there's some churches that actually support, you know, LGBT lifestyle.

He said, yeah, I wouldn't go. That's heretical. He was like, I hear that all the time. He was like, the Bible to support that. They were like, wait, but you're, he's like, just because I'm gay to understand, I don't mean I can't read. Like, you can talk all you what, but you can't talk your way out of them guy in the mind.

disagree with homosexuality. He was like, this is very, very clear. He's like, that's why I can't do this. Because you're telling me that who I am, I can't be with you. And so I, and it's funny, like, hearing, like, and so it's always like a shocker for people because it's like, you don't have a problem with Christians. You have a problem with God.

You know, like your wrestle is truly with God, not with his people. He's like, oh, I love Christians, which is why he's able to be there. Like, hang out. He's just like. He'd have a great time, man. He's having a fun ending, yeah. He said he really enjoyed the conversations with, like, even Gen Z. You know, like seeing the young people there and talk through things and, like, as he's saying things and giving his perspective, they weren't, like, they were just like, it.

It's like, yeah. So it was cool, man. Yeah, he's excited to come back. He said he's going to try to bring more people with him next time, you know. Because, like I said, I think the beauty of places like exile is, like, uh, you know, uh, he's excited to come back. whether or not somebody agrees or disagrees, it's safe. You know, and so y'all, y'all have created a good, safe community. I guess, like I said, I'm part of it now, too.

We've created a good safe community, man. So it's beautiful, man. So Saddam Al-a-Kahman, he wants to start a podcast called Hymns and Heretics. Hymns and Heretics. Yeah. Obviously, I'm Hymns, obviously. He's heretics. Hems and Heretics.

Yeah. I'm actually interested. I'm actually interested in it after hearing it and hearing. people's perspective. That'd be a fun podcast. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got some really, really good thoughts on things. He's brilliant. He's actually has a theological degree. A degree? Oh, I don't know that. Wow. Yeah, he went to, he went to Bible College. Oh, wow. He was preaching, youth pastor, all that. You know, I think, uh, yeah. And actually, I was like, man, like, so what was, like your last sermon like? Because I can imagine that

the moment you left the faith, you left the church. He's like, oh, yeah. I was like, I was I would not preach knowing that I don't support it anymore because that's just disingenuous. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah, it's just interesting. Like, I've never met somebody like him, you know what I'm saying? So I love hearing his thoughts on certain things, knowing that either there will be people that are agreeing with him or at least are respective of him. But then there's those who, even the LGBT community are like, why are you in that circle at all? Oh, okay.

Like, that's the ops. That's the enemy. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is how they treat us. This is how they do us. And he's like, look, man, like this, you can't have a double standard. Like, there's people, they have a perspective too. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you have your bias. They have theirs. And I think there's got to be a bridge. I feel the same way on the other end. I'm like, why are you over there with those people? I'm like, Jesus able sinners? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, heretics.

And that's a bad guy would say, golly. But yeah. But yeah, so I think, I think it does. speak to the heart of exiles that I was safe enough to bring a friend like that around and knowing that he would be comfortable, you know? And even where he was uncomfortable, it wasn't threatening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, thanks for the debrief, man, and I got to get ready to run a marathon tomorrow. I thought you're going to run it with me, man. I thought so too, man. I didn't know it was so structured. Like, it's a, I thought I'd be able to get up in the more, stretch my legs a couple times and just hit the little 22 miles.

Yeah. Were you thinking about doing the full marathon you were thinking about doing? Oh, yeah, bro. I wrote a book, man. So if you can write a book, you can run a marathon. That's my mind. I don't know. It's like, gearing my mind to be like, even when my body hurts, I'll just push through.

I'm just going to do it. You know what I'm saying? I think it's possible. I think everybody gets to that point where it's just like, I can't do this anymore. Now what? Yes. You know what I'm saying? The same thing like my 14-day fasts I've done.

It's like just water. It's like, my. bodies like stop like give me food again I'm like no I'm about to fight this through so I had every intention to do it but then I was like I was like oh you gotta pay for marathons like yeah I was like now it's like I'm probably 150 bucks or wrong yeah man I was like I was like but it gave me the mindset it's like okay prepare you next time yeah I know that like this is something I would want to do because like even me being on the plane like I'm gonna do this yeah this is this is something I'm like

and I'm like okay maybe when I have one locally or next time you do one yeah Sometimes I can fly out. Okay, yeah. I'm definitely down. I'll do it again. I'm definitely down. Absolutely. For sure.

All right. All right, peace out, you guys. Thanks for listening.