Theology in the Raw - Faith, Acting, and Evangelism in New York City with Ashley Lalonde

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Join the Theology in the Raw Patreon for bonus episodes and more! https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Ashley Lalonde is actor, singer, dancer, and lifelong New Yorker with an incredible heart for evangelism. She's toured with Hamilton, sang at Carnegie Hall, and somehow has found extra time to serve as a research fellow at the Barna Group. In this episode, Ashley shares what it’s like to follow Jesus in the Broadway world and how she approaches conversations about faith in some of the most diverse and influential cultural spaces in the country. Drawing from both her personal experiences in NYC and her research with Barna, we talk about evangelism, listening without judgement, being a peaceful presence, and more. Watch now! and learn more at https://www.ashley-lalonde.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

There is a lot of hesitation about the capital C church, but there's actually a lot of openness to Jesus. And we also found in the Barnadena data that the number one thing people are seeking spiritually is peace. Knowing that, my prayer for myself is, Lord, let me be a person of peace. Let me walk into a room and be a non-anxious presence. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Raw. My guest today is Ashley LaLan. who is an actor, singer, and dancer who has performed in shows at Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, and was a star in the hit Broadway national tour of Hamilton. Hamilton, like the Hamilton.

Ashley is a passionate Christian who lives and grew up in New York City, which is where this theology in the raw conversation takes place. It was recorded in person in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan, where I sat down with Ashley to chat about her experience. as a Broadway performer and her incredible interactions she's had with many LGBTQ people. Just a reminder, too, that the early bird discount for the Exiles and Babylon Conference ends on January 10th, okay? January 10th, get 15% off if you register before January 10th. Head over to Theologianrod.com to take advantage of this discount. You're not going to want to miss this conference. I cannot wait.

I cannot wait. Four months is way too long. It's going to be incredible. We're engaging topics like immigration, mental health, AI, war, and the historical reliability of the Bible. Again, TheologyNorod.com for all the info. Okay, please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Ashley Lal. Ashley, I am so excited to have you on Theology and Rod. Thanks so much for making time for this conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Well, we have a mutual friend, Ashley Anderson, and she gave me your name and says, hey, you know, you're coming

in New York. You might want to consider having Ashley Lal on your podcast. I looked you up and I was like, oh my word. You're like super famous. Oh my gosh. No, no, no. Thank you. Ashley's a good friend. What's it like being a Broadway actress? Star. What's the language? Sure, Broadway actor. You said Star, not me. It's so fun and challenging. I am a native New Yorker, so born and raised right here in Manhattan. And it has always been a dream of my heart to get to perform on Broadway, to get to be part of just that magical musical. I don't know if you've ever gotten to see a show, but there's something.

Oh, okay, next trip, next trip. And I'll give you some wrecks. There's something so magical about live theater, live storytelling. I like that it's kind of an anything can happen moment because you walk into this live theater and we're doing it fresh every night. And so, of course, things are rehearsed and there's a script. But there really is this magic of who knows what's going to happen. We make mistakes on stage all the time.

Yes. And the audience's energy changes the dynamic. And so even the audience laughing more or clapping more, it shifts how we even respond to each other. So I love that spontaneity. I love that magic and the tenderness of we're all in this room. We've all committed to the story. We're all just going to fully engage in the suspension of reality. I think it's really special.

But I grew up singing in church, attended a church here in New York. My parents are believers. So it also always felt spiritual for me, getting to perform. It was a way that I connected with God, a way that I got to engage my gifts. But I'll be totally honest that the lifestyle of professional acting is really hard. It's a lot of rejection. It's funny because most people, you know, you talk about the successes and you get to share about, oh, I was in this show or on this show.

and you don't talk about the 95% plus of things that you've auditioned for and gotten a hard and strong no. Or, you know, it's not ghosting, but the default of the industry is that if you don't get something, you just don't hear back. It's different than a lot of other industries where you get a nice little rejection email. That's not the case in acting. But I will say it grows your character because you are so accustomed to having to face rejection and to say it's not about that. It's not about external validation. It's not even about resume building. It's about getting to share the art, share the gift, and storytell.

Okay. Give us a picture, like, how hard is it to maybe get the, like, to be where you're at on Broadway? Like, is it like one in a thousand, one in a million, one in a hundred? Or, I mean. I wish I knew the stats for me as a researcher. I wish I could give you the exact stat. I would say anecdotally, my story with Hamilton, which is the biggest show that I've gotten to be a part of, is I auditioned for six years and had six years of nose.

Oh, wow. Truly. For Hamilton. For Hamilton specifically. So I auditioned for the first time when I was 18. I was still in high school. It was actually a school day and I waited outside in the rain for five hours to be seen at an open casting call. I did not get a call back.

And then I went home. And the next year when I was now starting school in Boston, I went to a Boston open casting call. And I did get seen. I still didn't get a call back. And year after year, I finally shortly thereafter, started making. it into the callback rounds, made it to the final callbacks, but every time it was not yet, not this time, not you. And of course, God has a way with things because in the meantime, in those six years, I got my degree from Harvard and sociology, which was a huge, huge blessing. That

wouldn't have happened if I booked Hamilton at 18. I also met my husband in college. I got to be a part of ministry and just grow in my faith, grow in my discernment, growing my maturity, so that by the time I booked Hamilton, I was ready for it. And I was ready to step in with both much better creative skill set, much stronger, and also just personally, spiritually, standing on a firmer foundation. And I actually went on the road with Hamilton. So I toured to, was it, 17, 19 different cities across the U.S. And my husband and I had just gotten married that year.

And so he actually got to come on the road with me and basically be part of my entire Hamilton. and experience, which was such a gift because he was working remotely at the time. And, you know, what God does on the road in those shows, because you're so isolated, it's like a crazy social experiment, putting, you know, about 50 grown adults into this bubble and having them travel around together. It was wild. It was cool. I saw God show up in ways that I never knew toward churches around the country, which was really special as well. So it was a challenging road. that's to say I don't know the exact statistic, but my statistic with Hamilton is it took a long while and it's rare. It's pretty rare for somebody to land show on Hamilton. Okay. Okay. Do you have any,

you said you guys mess up a lot? We do. We do. You're like at the top tier professionals, but you still say you mess up a lot. Do you have a specific blunder that was like, I wish I had that moment back. Oh, I'll say my funniest Hamilton blooper. And again, live theater. So only the people in the audience who caught it that night would catch it. At the end of the Battle of Yorktown, which is like this big, super patriotic number, you know, we won, we won. It's about the Revolutionary War. That night, I had to stand kind of straddling the edge, the railing of the balcony, the Hamilton set has multiple levels. And so I'm standing up on multiple pieces, and the Hamilton set is mostly built of these fake wooden planks. And the wooden plank just came off the wall, the one that I was

standing on. So I tripped. And then this plank is just sitting there that has fallen off the set. And I was like, huh, this is going to be a hazard for someone. So apart from me literally falling and thankfully staying on the balcony, not falling to the ground level, I literally just grabbed it, swooped it up and walked off stage with this wooden plank. And I handed it to one of our awesome tech cream backstage. I was like, I don't know what to do with this. The plank came off the set. and here I am just carrying it off. So that was probably my funniest little hazard moment. I'm thankful I haven't had too many other crazy ones.

There was a time where my mic stopped working. I was on as Eliza, Hamilton's wife. And so during a quick change when they're putting on the pregnant baby belly, someone's trying to change my microphone and I don't make it out on time for the beginning of the song. So I literally ran out, started singing. So just crazy little moments that sure, a discerning I might catch it. But on the whole, you know, we're very professional.

So when we do mess up, but we keep it in character. And is it, so it sounds like you kind of have fun with it if you do mess up. It's not so devastating where you're just like completely depressed all this. Sure. I mean, I think different people respond differently. For me, I try to not take myself too seriously. I try to laugh things off. And I think that has helped because at the end of the day, it's a bunch of adults playing

dress up on stage for money. It's very silly. It's beautiful. I think it's sacred. I think storytelling and singing and dancing has always been central to the human experience. You see that in anthropology, sociology, you see it in scripture. But I also have to take myself not too seriously. I'm not performing heart surgery.

I'm singing and dancing on stage. And it's a little different in TV and film, which I've gotten to do a bit more of over the last couple years, because you just do a new take. You mess up. That's not the tape we're using. Though every once in a while, they will use the mess-up take because it adds something to the story. the way that you fudged that line actually landed a bit better. So there's kind of a balance there of being able to not take yourself too seriously

because the stakes are not that high and holding yourself with a high level of professionalism because especially with a show like Hamilton, people are sometimes paying thousands of dollars for one ticket. And so you want to honor the audience and show up professionally. Okay. So you are a Christian and you're on Broadway. I would assume that's fairly rare for somebody to be a Christian in that environment. What's that like?

I think at the end of the day, yes, there are not that many Christians. I do think that people outside of the industry think that anything in entertainment, Hollywood, Broadway is very ungodly. And I would just say there are Christians at every level of it. It's definitely the minority. It's certainly the minority. But I think God has actually been really sweet in planting like other Christians. and environments. And so I've often found, like, oh, here's one other person who loves Jesus.

I will say it's a contentious space. It's a contending space, even in the prayer realm and in the spiritual realm. It's been an honor. I think my biggest thing is I'm very public about my faith. So most people who have come into contact with me in one realm or another, they know that I love Jesus. And I've taken that really seriously. I think there are many people, and I don't shame this, but who feel a little bit uncomfortable being public about their faith. So I think there's some Christians in hiding in the industry, and different people are called to different levels of kind of public declaration and kind of nuance in how they share and who they choose to share with.

For me, I've always felt like God has asked me to be very public. And it even started, I came to Christ as a little kid. My mom shared the gospel with me in my childhood bedroom in our apartment uptown right here in Manhattan, and we got on our knees, and I said, yes. Jesus, I want you, come into my heart. And since then, what's funny is I saw the sort of evangelist spirit coming out even as a kid. And so I would have play dates in elementary school where I would specifically invite people over and be like, do you know Jesus? Like, do you know God loves you? Like, do you want to pray about that? And that was kind of the story of my

childhood. You were that kid. I was that kid. Preston, I was that kid. It may be sometimes to a fault and I'm a bit more discerting and intentional now in my adulthood. But what's interesting is over my testimony, I saw that in middle school and in my teen years, I started to get really quiet about Jesus. I think I was uncomfortable. And even though I knew God and I loved God and I was still part of the church, I did feel a little too cool for school at that moment in time, which now I look back and laugh at. But I think it was just the sort of peer pressure of being a teenage girl in general is not easy. You raised probably a delightful daughter. But it's not easy. It's not easy in a place like New York. I'll say in my childhood community, I certainly was the minority. I thought

that Christians were the minority in the world because most of my friends were Jewish or agnostic or atheist. And so I was like, oh, well, no one's Christian. I actually asked my parents to have a bat mitzvah. They were like, honey, we're not, we can throw you a big birthday party for your 13th, but we're not going to throw you a bat mitzvah. Now I understand why. but I think I was really succumbing to sort of the peer pressure of this isn't cool and I cared too much about what other people thought. I had the fear of man a lot in my heart. And I think I was also working out my faith, which is scriptural.

We need to work out our faith. But I'm grateful that I think by the time I was 18 or so, God kind of brought me back and said, no, Ashley, I've called you to be more public about your faith. I've called you into these spaces on the margins where people are hungry and seeking and I'm going to make you someone who can connect, make you someone who feels accessible, a bridge builder. And so I think that's actually the heart of evangelism is like relational bridge building.

And I'm grateful that I think God really brought that out in me in my early 20s. And so to kind of stand more firmly now and say I love surprising people with Jesus, not in the sort of gotcha and boo way, but in the sense of a lot of people think they know what Jesus is about. They think they know what Christianity is about and saying, oh, actually, that's not it.

at all. Can I tell you about the real Jesus? I don't believe in that Jesus either. That one's not the real one, you know, and getting to clarify, getting to be invitational, getting to be present, a lot of curiosity over correction, a lot of presence over preaching. And that I found to actually be the changing point. That's the turning point. That's the space where people feel loved and seen and known, which is pretty much all any of us want. And also to come in with gentleness and humility. You know, Jesus only speaks about his heart once in the entirety of the gospels. Come to me all who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest for my yoke is easy and my burden is light for I'm gentle and humble and heart. And those two words,

gentle and humble, that's my prayer for myself. And for every Christian is that we would grow in our gentleness and grow in our humility. And I think that is what I try to carry into every space professionally on that side. That's so good. That is so good. I didn't know that about Jesus and mentioning his heart. Portland! I know you are hearing this because my data guy tells me that you're one of my top cities for downloads. Well, I will be in your neighborhood March 8th and 9th, 2026 for the Portland Faith, Sexuality, and Gender Conference, and I am hoping to see you there.

The full conference is designed to equip pastors, educators, and church leaders to engage the LGBTQ conversation with grace and truth. We'll take a deep dive into all the many theological. relational and ministry-related questions that come up in this conversation. You'll also have the option to register for just the two-and-a-half-hour introduction to the LGBTQ conversation that's taking place the first evening on Sunday, March 8th. This session would be perfect for parents of LGBTQ kids, high school and college students, and anyone who's just starting their journey in this conversation. To sign up, just head over to centerforfaith.com forward slash events and select

the Portland Conference. We also have incredible group pricing. so you can bring along your friends and fellow pastors and church staff. Okay, so once again, that's centerforfaith.com events forward slash events to sign up for the faith, sexuality, and gender conference on March 8th and March 9th. Thanks so much to our friends over at Amago Day Community Church for hosting this conference. Can women be leaders in the church? Pastors, overseers, teachers, preachers, and elders. This is a question that I have long been interested in, but haven't seen.

studied it out for myself. And as always, the strength of our passion should match the depth of our study. So this is what I did. I spent over three years researching what the Bible says about women in leadership. And I wrote a book about my conclusions. It's called From Genesis to Junia. And on a search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. And in it, I thoroughly examine all the main passages and arguments on both sides of the debate and try to treat them as fairly as I know how. The book comes out in March, March 3rd, but you can pre-order it today wherever books are sold. I mean, you kind of touched on it, but yeah, what is the most common reaction you get when

people find out you're a Christian? Oh, like that, that exactly. Okay. Oh. Like a little bit of surprise? Yeah, I think there's, and not sure what the thing is about? I think it's a sort of like people have walls up around Christianity, many with good reason, many people know, LGBTQ community are understandably guarded around Christianity. I think there's sort of a surprise and also a curiosity of what does that mean to you? What does that look like in your life? I think the biggest thing and the other thing we haven't touched on, I have worked at Barna with David Kitteman over the last couple years, another mutual friend.

And I'm a senior research fellow there. And recently our data has revealed we've done this giant study on what does it mean to be spiritually open. And we found that there's huge amounts of spiritual openness in Americans right now. There is a lot of hesitation about the capital C church, but there's actually a lot of openness to Jesus. Most people are very open to Jesus, whether they come from another background, whether they are non-practicing Christians, people who maybe would call themselves Christians,

but aren't actively engaged in a faith practice, and a lot from people who are spiritual but not religious. So much openness to Jesus, so much curiosity. And we also found in the Barn of data that the number one thing people are seeking spiritually is peace. And so knowing that, I think I saw that anecdotally and the research affirmed it, knowing that my prayer for myself is, Lord, let me be a person of peace. Let me walk into a room and be a non-anxious presence as my pastor John Tyson talks about. What does it look like to be a non-anxious presence? What does it look like to carry the peace of the Lord when you're fully surrendered to the Prince of Peace. And people are curious about that. I have, I get to serve with the Alpha team here at Church

of the City, which is just an, I've been involved with Alpha for almost six years now. I absolutely love it. I grew up at a church that ran Alpha. For anyone listening who doesn't know, these are basically a weekly dinner series for people who would not identify as Christian, people who are not churchgoers, kind of like a community group for nonbelievers. And our core principles there are listening without judgment and relationship building. And we've found that time and time again, God just shows up in those spaces because we are slow to speak. We are quick to listen, slow to anger. I found that honestly, a number one principle that's been helpful, because of course, in the entertainment industry, in New York City, there is hostility to Christianity with reason.

I have found the number one thing to be helpful is being unoffendable. So I have committed to being unoffendable. You cannot offend me with anything you say about Christianity. Because also I found that what's inside needs to come out to make room for the other stuff. The people actually need to be able to voice their concerns. They need to be able to say that inappropriate, quote unquote, sacrilegious thing maybe. And at Alpha, we find that that's really powerful to create a space where someone can say, oh, I'm so angry because I experienced this in the church growing up, so angry because of this

political moment that we're in. I'm so hurt by this. And to say, I hear you. Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry that happened to you. It actually builds relational healing, relational capital, the sociological term. But it builds relationships, period. And a lot of people have said, you know, are we in a moment of revival? Revival moves at the pace of friendship. And so actually, if you can build intentional relationships that are based on love, not compliance, not submission, not even someone believing, but just a relationship that purely says, I'm here to show up for you, I'm here for your whole journey, I'm here for the messy parts, I'm here for the questions, I may not have all the answers. Jesus actually asked 307 questions throughout all the

gospels, and he was asked 187 questions. Most Bible scholars say he only answered between five to eight of those questions directly. Only five to eight. And I think a lot of us as Christians get really caught up with, oh, I don't have the exact right answer. And oh, no, they're going to ask me about this and that. And I would say, one, pray. Always pray. Pray without seizing. Pray at every moment. My favorite quick prayer is just come Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, have your way. Holy Spirit, speak through me. That's what I was praying before. We got to chat. But just asking the Holy Spirit to show up in that moment, Luke 12, 12, the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say. So you don't come with a spirit of fear. Come with a spirit of love and prayer and God will show up. But also

knowing you don't have to have the perfect answer because the gospel going out doesn't depend on your perfect presentation. Sometimes perfect presentation is more harmful than good because it turned people off. It feels artificial. Yeah, it feels artificial and planned. Exactly. I think we could go with a lot more messiness and honesty about our own stories, also to be relatable, to say, I'm grappling with this. I've doubted in these ways. Here's this sin that I don't know what to do with this in my own life. These are the existential questions that I don't yet have answers to. But here's the Prince of Peace that I've come to know and here's the piece he's given me that I want to share. That's good. That's good. I am curious about your interaction specifically with

LGBTQ people, first of all, is the stereotype correct that on Broadway, there's going to be a fairly high percentage of people who identify as LGBTQ. Yeah, that's totally correct. Okay. And so, and when you, when people find out you're a Christian, or, huh, that mixture of curiosity and wonder and fear and surprise. And I'm curious about your interaction specifically with LGBTQ people on Broadway, is it similar to that? Is there some anger, hostility, fears, some maybe past trauma that's been triggered? Sure. What is the reaction?

And I'm sure it's diverse, but you can give us a picture of that diversity. But yeah, what's the reaction to Jesus when you start talking about Jesus? Yeah. I think people are genuinely really excited to talk about spiritual things. Okay. that people are very spiritually hungry. I have found within the LGBTQ community, many people are deeply spiritual. Many people do have their own relationship with God in some form, whether that looks like Christianity,

whether that's part of a church or another religion. People actually, I think that sometimes Christians go wrong when we assume that I'll say queer people, queer being the word that kind of encompasses, catches all of the letters. That's the term that many of my friends use. they like that term. The queer people, we assume that queer people are not spiritual or don't know God. And I think that does more harm than good. I think that does harm even across other people groups is it gives a sort of like,

oh, we know something you don't, us versus them, those who are found and those who are lost. And so I sort of try to reject that and come to a point of there's a lot of queer people who grew up in the church. there's a lot of queer people who have some personal spiritual practice, some that even mirror a Christian faith, many who believe in Jesus, many who like the teachings of Jesus. And so coming in actually with maybe that assumption, oh, you actually might know something about Jesus. Maybe you have something to teach me that I have forgotten about, because that's the spirit of humility that says, I don't have all the answers just because I'm part of this church or that or just because I get to speak on a podcast about it. So I think coming in with the humility, and

more questions and answers has been really helpful. I'll say, I have rarely kind of been asked like, oh, well, what's your theology on this? That actually has not, in my experience, been the primary question. Because that's a fear among Christians, I think. It is. I think. What am I going to say when they ask the question about theology of marriage? And do, and what I would also say, you know, we were talked about not having the perfect answers, which is true. But also, if you've never considered your theology around sexuality, read the Bible and read it. all the way through, read every passage, read it multiple times through, read the theology commentaries, listen to a podcast like this, that's great, look at the Barner Research,

read different cultural trends in the news. So do your own work around apologetics so that you are actually prepared to speak on it with nuance. What I will say is in my personal practice, obviously, as many of us are, we're big fans of CS Lewis out here. But my favorite writing from CS Lewis is his essay first and second thing. things. And in it he talks about having first things be first and then second things be second. To me, what I've pulled from that is that when we have any sort of faith conversation, the first things need to be kept first. And what CS Lewis talks about is that when we focus only on the second things, we end up missing the whole thing. And so when we kind of come

at the second things without having a shared understanding of the first things, we have ultimately destroyed the whole thing. And I'll say a sort of example of that in faith conversations with people of varying beliefs is we don't need to get into the second things of personal sexual ethics, even political ideology, your personal faith practice. If we're not agreeing on the first things, is there a God? Is that the God of the Bible? Is Jesus the son of God? Did Jesus raise from the dead? Does God love you? Does God have good things for you? Are you in relationship with God? that God. Who is the Holy Spirit? Is the Bible the authoritative word of God? These are all the first things. And so to me, in these conversations, I'm actually not particularly interested in the second

things before the first things. And I found that to be really helpful, particularly as I walk with friends who are moving towards Christ, is we just need to focus on the first things. And the reality is the second things are the fruit of the first things. If we get the first things right, if we come into alignment with God on the first things, the second things flow from the heart of the first things. But if we focus entirely on the second things and we miss the first things, we have a lot of religion, quote on quote. We have a lot of behavior modification without understanding the heart of God. We have a lot of repression. We have a lot of compliant culture. And we probably have missed the heart of God. So I love that approach for me in terms of even how I think about questions and

tough questions. I think also with tough questions, it's just prayer, do your reading, have those if you are not having those conversations with other Christians, how do you expect to have them with non-Christians? I think that's a lot of Christians are like, oh no, someone's going to ask me a question. I don't know how to answer. I'm like, have you even thought about that question? Have you talked it out with your small group, with a pastor, with a friend, with a spouse. And if you haven't, you will probably really fumble because you have not done the work. Even when I think about, you know, Jesus' greatest command to love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. And the second equally important command that he says is to love your neighbor

as yourself. A lot of us have not done that sort of self-examination work by the spirit and in community to love ourselves better. And I don't mean that in sort of fluffy, love yourself, self-care. No, not that. I mean that in the crucifix, sacrificial love, examining your heart by the spirit, confession, repentance, just that cycle of spiritual maturity and growing and the growing pains and letting the great physician cut open your heart and give you a new one. That's what I'm talking about. A lot of Christians have yet to engage in that hard heartwork. And so then when we come to the table with people who are exploring, seeking people in the queer community, if we haven't asked those questions of ourselves, we are not showing up prepared to that conversation.

And we're not showing up usually with grace and compassion because maybe we don't have that grace and compassion yet for ourselves in our communities. I just want to affirm what you said earlier about focusing on the first things and the second things are often the fruit that flow from embracing the first things. That was, I mean, I've been trying to say something like that for the last like 10 years in the ministry that I do. But the way you articulated, that was so brilliant. So I just want to, for what it's worth, put my stamp of approval and solvation on that because I think Christians do get hung up. Not just with the LGBTQ people or the queer community, but not other areas, you know, they'll they'll they'll kind of like say, well, it's this sin or this action that's preventing this type of person from.

you know, being a Christian and then they focus on that thing rather than just focusing on Jesus. It's like it's hard enough to follow Jesus like with the Holy Spirit when you believe he's Lord. Yes, yes. Try shoehorning somebody into following Jesus and they're not quite sure they want to, you know, commit to him as Lord and Savior. So that's so good. So there's a, so when you're talking to queer people, there's a genuine, oftentimes a spirituality, maybe even a maybe even curiosity around Jesus, or some kind of faith in Jesus. What about the church? I wish when people saw the church, they thought of Jesus.

Ha ha ha ha, ha, ha, me too. Wouldn't that be awesome? Yeah, wouldn't that be great? Like, oh, yeah, that's the group of people that look just like Jesus, you know? Oftentimes, their impression of the church is very different from their impression of the first century person called Jesus. So how does that go? What are some kind of like conversations around the church that you've engaged in with

queer people? Yeah. One of my friends who's part of the queer community, part of our church and it's just a well of wisdom, he says something, is a little mnemonic. It's sink, stink, think in these tough conversations. And so someone brings up the pain. of the church and man like I just feel like the church is super homophobic sink I agree with you that pains my heart to see the way that the church the capital C church has treated this community of

image bearers that hurts like my heart breaks for that and I want the church to acknowledge where we've gone wrong and that doesn't mean throw out the baby with the bathwater but we need to acknowledge where we've caused hurt and pain and be accountable to that and for that that. So that's the sink part. It's the, here's what I agree with in what you're saying. Here's what I can affirm. Here's where I can stand with you. The stink is where you, according to my friend Dustin, that's where you give a little bit of, here's another perspective. And I think language is so important. For me, as a sociologist, as a researcher, as a communicator, I think a lot about language and nuance of language. We are living in a cultural and political climate where

certain words are just trigger words. And so whatever you think about the word trigger, whatever you think about us being too offended, need to be more offended, whatever you think, we are in a time where words carry more weight than they did in the past. And so I am so intentional with the words that I use when I talk about sexuality, the words that I use when I talk about my faith, and I always stick to accessible in invitational language. So that's even shifting something from, the Bible says, bop, blah, blah, and that's that. The Bible might say that.

I'm not saying it doesn't. But it's a sort of invitational language is, have you ever read the book of James? There's this verse that really resonates with me. It talks about character and perseverance. Oh, do you mind if I read it to you? That's invitational language. That's accessible. And also not making assumptions that people know what you're saying.

I think Christians speak in Christianese all the time. And I'm like, sometimes I don't need. even know if you're saying anything. Like, what do you mean behind this season's changing? And I just feel the spirit of the Lord. And I'm like, can we speak a little bit more plainly here? Speak in order to be understood. And so know your audience and also be okay with being misunderstood. There's a dualism here. But I think that sort of accessible language and not making assumptions and allowing people to ask questions and journey back and forth is so, so important. And I've found I've been really privileged that I've gotten to walk with several queer friends towards Jesus.

Like in actually the last month or a month or two, I've had three queer friends give their life to Christ. Yeah, and it's been so beautiful. And that's just been a big part of my journey as an actor, as a person in New York, is I've just, I felt so blessed to get to walk with people and be that bridge builder to say, God does love you. You are created in his image. But I realized I didn't finish my sync, sink, sink, think.

So sync, get to a point where you can affirm something in the other person. Start there. Start with the affirmation. Start with where you agree. Then you can pull up a point of disagreement, a point of tension, and pull it up in a way that speaks plainly. Don't use Christianese. Explain your terms.

Even for me, when I talk about the word repentance, that can be a trigger word for people, not just in the queer community. all of us. That was a trigger word for me for a long time. But even just explaining, hey, this is what that word means. It means to change your mind, to change the direction of your heart, to turn away from something and to turn towards something. Oh, like that's what that means. It doesn't mean repression. It doesn't mean behavior modification. It means a heart posture that shifts and says, no more of this. I'm turning towards that. So explaining those terms, giving the sort of stink, but ending with a think, what is this meant to you? What does that

looked like in your life. How does that sit with you? Where have you seen God move in your life? Because it's also the case that many Christians think that they are bringing God to the lost, which there's an inkling of truth to that. What I would say is more true, Acts 17, God is not far from any one of us. He's already moving. He's already there. Jesus always was in the margins. So when I show up to a party with my queer friends, and maybe I'm the only Christian there, but probably not. But if I am, I'm not bringing Jesus into the room. Jesus is already there. He's already at the bar. He's already at the party. He's already in the club. Not because Jesus goes clubbing, but because Jesus is sitting in the margins with the people, society has marginalized.

And so that's what we see throughout the gospel. And that was the Pharisees' biggest complaint about him. Oh, this man, he eats with sinners. How disgusting. How dare he. How unholy. And what I have found is that actually when I move towards the margins with love and intention and peace and presence, I'm meeting Jesus there. So even this weekend, I was at a wedding of a close friend who's in the arts. And there was an amazing man who I got to speak to, who happens to be gay. And just casually bringing God up in the conversation, turns out he grew up in the church and has really has been involved, like singing in the church, is not from New York City.

but getting to talk to him about Jesus, and I ended up getting kind of a prophetic word to give him that night, and we got to pray at the end of the night and just like pray over God in his life and kind of a surrender to Jesus. It was so beautiful and profound, but I think a lot of Christians the second year is someone gay. It's like, uh-oh, I don't know if I could talk about Jesus anymore. I'm like, no, what does that mean? But I'll also say, of course, we have the Great Commission. We know that Jesus said, go and make disciples. It just doesn't look like what I think a lot of Christians think it looks like. And so that creates fear and confusion among Christians.

They're like, I have to give a gospel pitch in 90 seconds. I'm like, you usually don't. You usually, occasionally that might be it. And it's really helpful to have language to know how to share what you believe. But that's usually not how I've found it to come up. And I'll also say that like in our gentleness, in our humility, in our question first, sort of relational dynamic, that God usually shows up. And I've found that actually a lot of the spaces that Christians are scared of to be very thin spaces, spaces where you just see heaven and

earth overlapping. The last few weeks at Alpha, I've had the joy of getting to lead three different people to Christ at the bar. This is happening at a bar right here in New York City. I'm like, these bartenders don't know how many people have given their life to Jesus at this particular bar. How many people have surrendered? How many people have cried tears of joy just encountering the Father's love? Scripture tells us it's God's kindness that leads people to repentance. It's not us saying the perfect thing. It's not even your very sophisticated and accessible gospel proclamation.

That's good. Great. It's good to have that. But it's God's kindness. And so my prayer is that, God, would you let me carry your kindness? Would I be more filled with the fruits of the Spirit? Would I show up and be a great representative of you, Jesus? Because if I look more like you, Jesus, like that is a step towards healing.

That's a step towards hope. And that's kingdom come. Mark I, when you hear Jesus proclaim the good news, what he says is the good news is not, oh, that you can live better because I'm here and you can live with less sin. That might be the fruit of the news, but that's not the news. The news is the kingdom of God is near. That's the news. So if I can carry that message with me, the kingdom.

of God is near. God is not far. God's not this distant thing that is, you know, with a hammer in heaven, this like holy gravel that says, good, bad, hell, heaven. No, the kingdom of God is near. Or heaven and earth are intersecting again. We have glimpses of the garden. We have glimpses of the holy city. That's the good news. And I want to invite you into that. And so as soon as I can get into prayer, and that prayer for me can be, it can be private. It can be personal. Like, Holy Spirit, come, speak. I'm sensing a kingdom opening moment. I'm sensing an intersection.

I'm sensing the gates of heaven opening just a little bit over this moment. Because I do believe that God will lead you to these really sacred moments. And it might be, you just get to affirm someone's step towards faith. I think Christians are very quick to kind of have an older brother in the prodigal son mentality. You know, we talk about the prodigal son a lot. We don't talk about the older brother. It's actually the parable of two sons. You have the younger brother who squanders the wealth and runs away, crazy living, and starts to come home and the father welcomes him.

But we also end the story with the older brother who's angry and he's bitter and he says, I slaved away. All these years, I slaved away for you and you never even, you know, killed the fat and goat for me. And we've missed something here. We've missed something actually by focusing too much on the prodigal son. I'll say, I think there's a lot of people who want to run home to the father. There's a lot of people, but they don't think the father will welcome them because they've encountered the older brother's mentality that says, you're too bad. Like, I can't celebrate you. And what the father's mentality is, I saw you from a long way off and I ran towards you.

So that's my prayer is that I would run towards people who may be, quote, unquote, a long way off, though Acts 17, God's not far from any one of us. But that I want to run towards. And I think also we get so caught up on, oh, but sanctification and sin. And yes, that's the fruit of knowing the kindness and love of God. That's the fruit of being filled with the Holy Spirit. That is the fruit. But we can't be obsessed with the fruit when we don't even have our roots in the soil, you know? It's like, if we don't have a tree, where's the fruit coming from?

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So don't miss out on this opportunity, be encouraged and inspired by the courage of believers worldwide. I'm curious to go back to the church question. Like when people do express bitterness, reservation, maybe hatred toward the church, maybe there's been some serious past experiences that would be genuinely like traumatic, you know? Yes, yes. Have you experienced that kind of reaction?

And how do you respond to that? Yeah, I think responding with grace and patience and listening, listening without judgment. They'll say even the Barner research backs us up in our spiritually open study. It says the number one thing I said that people are seeking is peace. The number one thing that non-Christians want from Christians is listening without judgment. That is the number one thing. The number one. That's easy.

I know. Well, I don't know how easy it is because most of us jump quite quickly to not listening, talking at, or talking about, which is even worse, and judging. So I think it's, you know, Jesus talks a lot about judgment. Paul talks a lot about judgment, James, because it's so easy to judge. It is so easy. And so it sounds easier, I think, than it is. But it's a practice. Listening is a practice. That's a practice. That's a actually something we do at Alpha. I think a lot of people think in the Alpha ministry, oh, you're teaching and preaching. I'm like, no, we're listening. We're having dinner and we're listening. We're listening to people's hurts. And so I think when people do bring up these painful moments, it's affirming their pain. And it's even like, I love that so much of the Bible actually has a lot to say about lamenting, a lot to say about injustice. I think we should talk about that in churches a lot more. One of my favorites is the verse in Psalms that talks about God collecting our tears and jars of clay. I'm like, oh, that just hits my heart

every time. And being able to talk about, like, God's heart breaks for every moment that you've been hurt. Like, that is not God's heart. God's heart breaks over injustice. And just being able to affirm that what they've experienced, that pain is valid, the hurt that was caused, it was wrong. And ultimately, and I know this, even this phrase in some Christian spaces can be tough as like safe space, but being a safe person, I have been so honored that a few of my queer friends who have come to faith over the last few years have said, like, hey, Ashley, you're one of the safest people I know.

Like, even regardless of any points of disagreement, you are safe because you listen without judging. And so that has been like the heart of my approach is, People who have pain with the church affirm it. It's like, that is so valid. If that happened to me, I would hate. I would have so much hate and bitterness and resentment in my heart. And also not rushing people.

I think the patience piece is really important. I found some of my friends, the first time I invited them to Alfa our church is hard no, hard no. Just like, and being okay with that. They're not rejecting me. They're just rejecting an invitation. That's fine. Also, God gives free will an agency. So they are allowed to reject.

to God. That is their journey and you are not in charge of anyone else's journey. But not rushing like the sanctification process, not forcing anyone's hand, whether that's around sanctification or church or a ministry, you just can't force people. People will come when they are ready and desiring to come. And so I think as believers, as friends, and I'll say a lot of Christians don't have non-Christian friends, that's a whole other tangent that we can get into that I have a lot of thoughts on. But if you are friends with someone who is seeking, if you have an LGBTQ person and your friends, your family, your coworkers, be patient in love. Be patient in love. Know that their pain is valid. The church has done a lot of things

to cause pain and hurt to this community. And so the pain is valid. Don't force anyone's hand. I think it's like sewing seeds. It's like make things accessible. make things easy and low stakes, offer prayer when people are open to it. Don't be offended when they're not. That's their right. So I think it's, yeah, the patience and the listening. Have you had, I mean, in practicing that and just in seeing your personality, like I can't imagine somebody being like angry at you. I mean, both your personality and your approach and everything you're saying. But have you had times when no matter how much you lead with great, and non-judgmental listening, they're still just like angered or maybe not at you specifically,

but what you represent, you know, maybe it's church, maybe it's Jesus, whatever, or like some kind of, again, maybe it's connected to a really painful experience in the past. Or do you find that most people are truly kind when you show kindness? I do think that there's a reciprocal energy that can happen. I don't mean that in the woo-woo sense. I mean in the literal sense is that when you show up with peace and not judging and openness and curiosity, people tend to mirror behavior. If you show up with rage and accusation, guess what you'll get back. Probably a lot of rage and accusation. So I'll say, on the whole, I don't have a lot of rage and accusation directed at me by people who know me personally because they know how I show up.

They know how I try to love. They know how I try to be patient and curious, even over points of disagreement. I've certainly come into contact with people who have a lot of anger around the church. And yeah, honestly, it's, Lord, help me to maintain peace. I don't want to sync to a level. And I don't mean sync as like, oh, I'm better than that. It's not that. It's like, God, you have been refining my character. Holy Spirit, give me transcendent peace, even as this person berates me or you, God. Just give me transcendent peace. And I have, had a couple of those interactions over the years. I would say they're few and far between in my personal experience, but love thy neighbor as thyself. And at the end of the day,

that's all I can do is just hope to continue to be a person of peace and to offer love and affirmation. And I think correction is not really the spirit that I bring in. I do speak the truth with grace. Truth and grace go hand in hand. And so grace is not grace without truth. Truth is not truth without grace. And so there's a compassion and a gentleness to it. But I think also like clarifying things. So sometimes rage comes from a place of misunderstanding. And so is there anything I can clarify for you? I think there's also, again, it's often getting caught up on the second things without the shared understanding of the first things. The second things don't save anyone. Like sexual purity, quote unquote, does not save

anyone. It is Christ that saves. It is the Holy Spirit. It is the work of the cross. Two thousand years ago, Christ's resurrection. That's what saves. So my desire for any friend or stranger is not that they would suddenly modify all of their behaviors that are quote unquote anti-Christian. That's not my desire, genuinely. My desire is for everyone to have an encounter with the love of God that transforms their heart and brings healing, redemption, and beauty into the world. That's my desire. And I think people can see the difference.

Yeah, absolutely. And even with those stories where there is genuine anger, you know, frustration or whatever, I mean, in almost every case, that's connected to a deep story of probably some serious, you know, I've talked to one person who, yeah, just had this visceral reaction against Christianity and turns out yeah he was sexually abused by his priest and when it was kind of discovered they kind of like shoved it under the rug it's like he I mean yeah he should be mad really upset like he should be horribly mad yeah and so I think even even even trying if the person is inviting you into their story and you're showing curiosity and and it really resonate

and and even yeah I mean agree with the pain saying that you you are, like you said, like you have legitimate reasons to be really upset. I would be too. And I hate that. Like, I am upset on your behalf. And to know that it is actually, it's a sacred moment when someone reveals their pain to you. It's very sacred. Yeah. It's very personal. And for me, my prayer in that moment is like, God, thank you for letting me shepherd this moment. I won't do it perfectly, but thank you for letting me show up. Thank you for choosing me to be the person to receive their pain. Lord, like that's, that is sacred unto itself. And I've sat with friends from the queer community crying over like the harm and the things that they've experienced. Yeah. Honestly, often at that

bar that I mentioned, this bar is deeply spiritual. You got to go to this bar. Truly, truly. I've sat and cried with friends over, over the hurt caused. And so. Gosh. I bet that that probably goes a long way to have a Christian weeping with them over their church pain. Yeah, weep with those who weep. Yeah, weep with those who weep. And it is, yeah, I think it's very healing to have a Christian just say, I'm so sorry. I am so sorry. Like, how can I love you through this? How can I love you as we move forward? What do you need? And I think that's also the thing is sometimes Christians come in with a prideful heart. Oh, I know what you need. Right. I know what you need to get out of your life. and I know what you need to get into your life, God opposes the proud. He opposes the proud.

And so any time that we approach this conversation, evangelism, people who are in the queer community, non-believing friends and family members with pride, God opposes you. He literally opposes you. It's repeated multiple times in scripture. And so it's so interesting. John Mark Comer came and preached at our church and I've read a lot of his work over the years. And one thing, this is a paraphrase of what he said, but if the Pharisees could pass your test for spiritual maturity, you've gotten the test all wrong. And I think that is something we need to examine in the church, that idea that many times our test for spiritual maturity is a lot more about cleaning up the outside of the tomb, whitewashing the tombs, than it is about spiritual renewal

in the heart, then it is about healing and hope. And maybe the questions, again, going back to what Jesus said in Matthew about his own heart. Maybe the question is, have I grown in gentleness? Have I grown in humility? Those are the two primary words that Jesus says about his heart. And yeah, Jesus is many things. Jesus is not just gentle and humble. But when he tells the disciples what his heart is like, he says it's gentle and humble. And I think we need to pay attention to that more. Pay attention to that a lot more. And ask it of ourselves. Have I grown in gentleness and humility because God opposes the proud. And it doesn't mean, you know, never talking about truth. No, but truth and grace go hand in hand. The truth is that God is gentle and humble in Christ. The truth is that

the world will know us by our love. That's how the world will know Christ's followers by our love. You've given us a master class on down to earth on the ground evangelism and love and discipleship. So thank you so much for this. I, yeah, I'm so blessed and challenged. So thank you for what you have been doing and how you engage the role of Jesus. And thanks for being on Thealjeanuron. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Preston. Truly an honor. Love chatting. I don't know. I don't know. Thank you.