Theology in the Raw - Faith, Fatherhood, and Collabing with indie tribe and Forrest Frank

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Exiles in Babylon Conference is coming soon! Join us in Minneapolis, April 30-May 2. Details at www.theologyintheraw.com/exiles26 nobigdyl. is a Christian hip-hop phenom. He's known most for combining concept driven lyricism with eclectic production. Musically he bounces from hard-hitting to ethereal—pulling from trap, jazz, golden era hip hop, underground and beyond to create his own sound. The Dove-Award winning, President Obama Playlisted, NPR Tiny Desk Contest Fan Favorite rapper is a storyteller at heart. His lyrics are part memoir, part stream of consciousness, as he wrestles with concepts such as faith, ego, love, and loss. Songs used with Permission:Stay by indie tribeTribe on the Move by DJ Mykael V and indie tribeimago interlude by nobigdyl. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

My ultimate fulfillment is in Jesus. Like when I try to chase fulfillment in fame or platform, you know, I feel the emptiness of it. God said that I wouldn't find fulfillment in those things. He says those things are idols that I only find fulfillment in him. And anytime I waver from that, it goes bad. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology to Raw. I am so excited about this episode. My guest today is the one and only.

No big deal. Or Dylan is his actual first name. Dylan is a Christian hip hop phenom. Personally, he's honestly, he's my favorite hip hop artists. I love his stuff. It's absolutely incredible. One of his biggest claims to fame was having one of his songs listed on Barack Obama's top 10 songs of the year.

I think it was back in 2022, 2022, 2003 or something like that. His lyrics are part memoir, part stream of consciousness as he wrestles with concept. such as faith, ego, love, and loss. His lyrics are so, so powerful. And in this episode, which was recorded in person, I got to hang out in person, but no big deal. I was fan boy in all the place. Yeah, such a cool dude, as you'll see.

It was recorded live in person in Franklin, Tennessee, and we talk about life, we talk about God, talking about music, and we discussed several of my favorite, no big deal songs, okay? And we actually play some of the songs. So if you're not familiar with this stuff, you will be in this episode. to put in your AirPods or expensive earphones or whatever so you can really hear the beat.

So you can really experience this engaging episode. Please welcome back to the show for the second time. The one and only, no big deal. Dylan, good to see you, man. What's up? I had to travel to you this time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is nice.

This is nice to do it in person. Last time you zoomed in while I was in Boisey, and I do want to apologize, your musician. and I had the worst audio. I had like some buzzing going on, and you kept kind of having to interject saying, hey, you got some static going on. I listened to it after.

I'm like, that was really distracting. Yeah, yeah. But this is the glow-up right here. I mean, this is perfect. We're in a real studio. Yeah, that's more something you're used to. So last time I had you on, I think it was about a year and a half or two years ago,

and you were, I mean, this is my perception. Okay. You were like a rising star. in the hip-hop scene. And it seems like over the last two years, you're no longer rising. You're just, you're up there. I mean, you're crushing it.

You've got stuff going viral. Everywhere I go, I don't have to say, hey, have you heard no big deal. Of course I've heard no big deal, you know. So I just, how have you handled the, for lack of better terms, the success? Like, what's that been like? Because you've even written songs on the difficulty.

of balancing that and how that can be like a distraction to the gospel and your walking Christ. You know, obviously you're creating music. You want as many people listen to it. But like that can come with some challenges. What's that been like? You know, the farther I get into it, the less that it's even appealing to really like lean into that getting my, you know, my fulfillment from notoriety or, you know, checking the stats or the numbers or the reach and all that. It, you know, and I think it's just, it kind of sounds obvious as you say it, but just the longer

you walk with Christ, like the less that those things really matter, you know. I don't think that Christian artists are immune to that. Like, I think that even though we come in with that general worldview, it's still intoxicating. Like, once you get into it and once you get into it and once you, you're, you, you're start building a platform and career and then once other people get involved and start kind of blurring the lines between like selfish ambition and effective ministry, you know what I mean? Then you can kind of like excuse like, oh, you know, I'm this is, I'm doing this for God, you know, and but the longer that I get into it is just like I do want to be effective.

do want to tell the truth in my music and I do want to serve the listener, but I don't want to build my own empire. Yeah. Or, you know, make an idol out of success at all. It's a very cruel master, you know, and it's very, it's not how we were created, created to be. You know, we're created to be cultivators, to be in community, to be pillars, like to hold things up and hold people up, but we're not meant to be like platformers. Like, everybody look at me and tell me how great I am.

So kind of just continually falling back from that, like, that fool's gold, you know. Yeah. I mean, just for context, that people are, you know, you can Google, no big deal and get a feel for his music. success. But I remember, I want to know how you felt when you, and I don't know if you found it on Instagram or if you heard about it ahead of time, but when you saw that former President Obama listed one of your songs on his year-long playlist or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When did you, how did you discover that? What would you? Yeah, it's really funny because a lot of these, like,

I'm actually like a really regular guy. Like, so a lot of these milestones, people will ask me, what was happening. And it's something crazy. Like, this one, I was just taking out the trash. Like, I was taking out of the trash outside the house. And I wasn't even on socials. Like, and people started texting me that, like, you're on Obama's playlist. You're on Obama's playlist.

And I'm like, what? Like, I'm having to, like, get my phone and open Instagram. And I'm seeing that he actually, like, posted me on his Instagram account and everything and all these texts and stuff were coming in. But, yeah, I was taking out the trash. It was a parabolic? Parabolic, yeah. I have no idea how that song made it into his realm at all.

But I can say that, you know, I guess it's really organic. Because I would have thought before that happened that his playlist was kind of like a publicity and culture move, meaning like it was like it was curated to kind of, tell a story or, you know, be in line with some type of concept or idea that maybe the former president wants to put out into the world and maybe it was curated by, you know, a team and they had reached out to the art. I hadn't, I didn't know until I got the text. So apparently they're just listening to the music and just putting it on there because he didn't gain anything. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know what I mean? It was like he was expanding his reach or something. Yeah, you know, I didn't fine. I didn't know if there was some method to it, but

I mean, as far as my song, there was no method. It was just, they didn't even tell me. They didn't even DM me or anything. Did you ever get in, like, did there any connection with him after? Or, I mean, oh, I really think he just listened. No, nothing from, I think he just put the songs he listens to

on the thing, because I never got any contact from the White House. They didn't DM me, nothing. So he was just listening to it at the time. Oh, it's a powerful song about race in the South. And like, so I could see, I could see where he would find the lyrics compelling. Yeah.

But, yeah. For sure, yeah. I want to know how he. I know. I wish I knew. But, yeah, nobody reached out. Yeah, it's a cool moment, though. What's the biggest crowd you've performed in front of one in particular that stands out?

So the biggest crowd that I have done as a solo artist would be, a festival in Australia. Oh, really? Yeah, I think it was like 7,500 people or something like that. But then if we're talking about like with other artists coming out like on stage, then like 20,000, because I've come out on Winter Jam with Andy Minio before for our song, Willie. You've done Willie? Oh, yeah.

I came out on his set. for Willie. So, yeah. So solo like 7,500 and, yeah. Yeah. You, I mean, you collab with a lot of people. I mean, John, the Indy Tribe guys, John Keith and others, and, um, Forrest Frank. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forrest. What's he like? He, he's shot through the roof, too, man. Yeah, he's, uh, he is exactly how, like, you experience him online. Well, I guess it's how I experience him online at least. He is consistently bad guy. Like, he's the same guy.

Yeah, yeah, he's very normal. Like, I could text him right now. He would text back. And, yeah. Do you text him right now on the podcast? I'll text him and see. Well, I want to see, Forrest Spring, text. I'll tell my kids, because my kids are getting excited about this.

My kids are how I found you, by the way. When you were just starting out. Not just starting out, but I think you had a couple albums under you. but, uh... All right, I just text them. Let's see if you text back. Now we're putting me to the test. Yeah.

Tell the tune to theology to wrong. No, but it was cool working with him. He just reached out to me. Oh, really? Through DM for all the time. He's young, right? Isn't he, like... I think he's 30 or something?

Oh, I thought he's like mid-20s, okay. I think. Yeah. I don't know. But yeah. And it was very easy, like, working with him, making that song and yeah yeah you just done one with him yeah yeah is it all the time all the time yeah yeah and we we're gonna listen to several of your songs yeah he produced that too like he

he really makes yeah he makes the beats and everything oh he makes the beats and everything yeah yeah yeah he produces everything so he's multi yeah yeah yeah yeah multi instrumental is amazing music yeah like singer like writer writes everything wow yeah yeah he's gonna go places yeah he's already i mean he's just within a couple years right he just was yeah yeah yeah yeah to the roof. Yeah. I think he's going to be, I think he's going to be

the biggest Christian artist ever. Really? Like, by the time he's done, is what I'm saying. Or like, I mean, unless we're counting like,

you know, Bach and stuff like that. Like the classic. I'm talking about like, you know, contemporary, like pop. Because he's,

is he under a Christian labor or no? I mean, he's like mainstream, right? Yeah, he was independent for a long time and then he was with 10,000 projects, which is like an indie label type thing. And I think he's back indie now. Okay. What makes his music, why, lots of talented people out there, why would you say he's going to be? I think he just, I think his music connects to a wide range of people, wide, like a very wide, like a very wide, audience, like age ranges and everything.

And I think he provides, um, yeah, he just, he just provides like a soundtrack for, I mean, I've met people from like every demographic essentially, who enjoys at least some of his catalog,

you know, every age, every race, like different denominations. Um, so I, that's why I think that. And I'm thinking right now, like kids love him but also adults love him and so longevity wise i'm just thinking if he goes

that's what i'm saying that like if he goes as long as toby mac like let's say he he decides he wants to do music for as long as toby has done it by the time he's toby's age you know what i mean he's gonna be yeah it's gonna be crazy because right now he's kind of like what happened with toby you know early 90s yeah so yeah hopefully maintains his faith like Toby. I know. Yeah. Oh, no, I definitely think Forrest will. If there's anything that I would say, like, yeah, like the most solid thing about Forrest is his faith. I don't think he, I can't see him ever wavering. I love hearing that because it seems like a more rare story than it's usual in the Christian music scene, especially when people get hit with success. No, I think he, I think he would, I think he would,

I think he would stop everything today if God told him that he wanted to. Yeah. He's real about that. It's happening. My son is 16 years old and he's starting to walk around thinking he's stronger than me. He's training for an ultramarathon, okay? So he's got me on the speed and the distance. But I'm pretty sure I can outlift him.

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slash TITR, code TITR to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. How do you maintain your faith commitment to be central above your music? You know, is there any, is there any practices you have or any, anything? Or is it just, yeah. A lot of practices, but you said, you said, I mean, I think it flows from, I just really believe that. Like, I don't like, there's, my ultimate fulfillment is in Jesus. Like, every, to me, you know, everything falls up.

apart like without God. Like none of this makes sense to me. Um, uh, I honestly like, I mean, this is kind of a dark way to say it. I'm trying to think of a more positive way to say it. But like life is like not worth it. Like if, if, if you all speak like Paul, you know, like if Christ is not resurrected, like if our faith is not true, then we should be the most pitied among men, as Paul said, you know, like, it's just not worth it. Like, nothing makes sense. Everything falls down and it's just chaos, you know. But that's not the truth, you know what I mean?

So that being the foundation that I really believe God is who he says he is, Jesus is who he says he is. And then, like, that's the foundation. I believe that. And then when I kind of veer from that in my behavior, like when I try to chase fulfillment in fame or platform, you know, I, like, I feel the, I feel the emptiness of it, you know, which just reinforces the truth. It's like, I mean, God said that I wouldn't find fulfillment in those things. He says those things are idols that I'll only find fulfillment in him and to deny myself and take up my cross and follow him. And anytime I waver from that, it goes bad.

It doesn't feel good. I feel dysregulated. Like I feel chaotic. Like, and not just me, but communities and societies and when you're off that path. So it just keeps reinforcing that it is true. So then that's when the practices come in. The practices are to kind of. direct my time, my attention, and my body towards what I already believe. You have to believe

it first or else they're just rituals that are also empty. But believing it's like, okay, I believe this. So what are these guardrails that I'm going to put up? So, you know, silence, Sabbath, scripture, prayer, community. I spend a lot of time with me. I spend a lot of time with no access to the internet. Really? Yeah, a lot of time. There's this, man, I don't know if y'all, I don't know if this is a plug that I can even do because it's a company, but there's

like, it's like a little startup, so maybe, maybe, but there's this thing called brick. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like a physical little square. And it kind of does what screen time does on your iPhone. Like, you know, you set screen time as like after four hours, I don't want to be able to access Instagram anymore. But then screen timer just pops up and you can hit. Actually, I do want to spend time on it, right? So the brick, it's a physical thing that you scan with your phone.

Oh. And you can set up different modes with it. And until you, like when you scan it, it shuts down those apps. You can't access them at all. Oh, really? And you can't access them until you scan it again. So the cool thing about it being physical instead of native on your phone is you can scan it. And then, like, mine is, mine right now is bricked.

And I left it at home. You see what I'm saying? So there's no way for me to, I can't just click through and be like, actually, I do want to be on Instagram right now. I have to scan that physical thing. Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Do you know the people that started it?

No, it was like a Kickstarter thing, though. I think they're gaining some steam now, but it's called brick. Because they had those, those, is it light phone, others are like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the only thing is there are some, like, I need my GPS, man, if I'm driving. Or, like, if I'm flying, I need my Delta app. If I click on Instagram right now, it says...

Oh, no way. I like... Okay. All right. It's called... It's currently brick to access to the app toack your brick and then the... And you just tap it. See, don't have to, like, memorize a code or anything.

No, no, no, you just tap it. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice. What... Can you spell it? Brigg? Brick.

Just like a... Oh, brick. Like a brick? Yeah, like a masonry. Yeah. Okay. Brick. Ooh, all right.

We'll put a link in the show notes. Yeah, so anyway, that's a big one. So you do you purposely carve out seasons of your routine where you're not online? Yeah, I mean, I'm mostly not online. Like even... Yeah, when I tag you on Twitter, you don't respond. Yeah, yeah, I'm mostly not.

Like, I have a very good... I think I have a good social media presence, but it's because I've, like, fought for the... pattern to be consistent and also not be on there a lot. So I have, I like approve all the content. A lot of times I make the content and everything, the caption, the text hook, the actual cut of the thing. And then I tell like my assistant to post it.

Okay. So I've done, it is me. Every, all of it is me, the words. Oh. But you're not physically posting and seeing all the people that are screaming at you. That's right. That's right. Because it's not posting that is the problem.

It's the, they're designed to, once you post, get you to scroll and get you to look at comments. And then, you know, people all the time that, oh, I got on here just to see this one thing. And now I've been scrolling for an hour. So I just take that out of the equation. I make the content, pass it off. That's good. You know. Got a new kid?

Is this your first one? Yes, your first one? Yes, my son. Your son is first baby. He's one month old. One month. Yeah. So you're not sleeping much these days. No, not sleeping much at all. How do you like being a dad?

I love it. I love it. It's one of those things in life that really shows you what matters and what's important and what's not important and what doesn't matter. It's a lot like marriage. It also shows you how much more you have to go to become a little. like Jesus, like it shows you how selfish you still are, you know, and just like subtle things, you know, like with sleep. Yeah, I need my sleep, man. Stop crying, man. Yeah, it's like, you need a little bit.

You find yourself like, wait a minute, I'm getting, I'm getting frustrated with a baby who has no way to communicate except crying. And something is actually, he needs food or he needs changed or, you know, he needs contact. And I'm getting frustrated with him. why because he's disrupting what the plans I have for myself. You know what I mean? It's like a deeper level of really questioning. Like I guess I still I still am kind of self-centered.

You know what I mean? Like so, but it's beautiful. Yeah. How long have you been married? Almost 11 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that's a disruption in your marriage, but you're so used to not having any.

Yeah. That's one thing too is like, exactly. We spent so much time like just us. like in the marriage. And so we had like our own routines and like way of doing life. And so I do think that it is a little bit more challenging in that way than if we would have had like kids right off the bat because, you know, you get married. That's already your whole life is changing. And then if you add a kid, it changes it again. But you're, you're kind of in the season of a lot of change. We've been in a season of consistency for a long time, you know. So it's like

kind of a Did your wife, I guess before you had your kid? What's your kid's name? Canaan. Canaan? Like the Promise Land. Yeah.

Shout out to Canaan. Yeah. Shout out. That's his first shout out. Shout out. Shout out Canaan, man. Okay. With the C?

With the C. Just like the Promised Land in the Bible. All right. He's going to be a Canaanite. No, he's not a can. Okay. Let's talk about this. Let's get nerdy for a second.

Okay. This is the perfect podcast for this. So he's not a Canaan knight. He is Canaan. So in the scripture, the problem was not Canaan. The problem was the Canaan Knights. Right. You see what I'm saying?

So like Canaan was the land of milk and honey, the promised land. All good stuff. The Canaanites who lived in the land were the issue. So he is decidedly not a Canaan Knight. He is named after the land of milk and honey, the promised land. The land, not the people. Yeah. All right.

All right, good, yeah. It's kind of like if you, it's kind of like if you name. It sounds like you've heard somebody say this before. No, it's just how I think. But it's kind of like if you named, if you named your kid America, like you would not necessarily want all Americans to be attributed to the kid. Right. It's named after America's idea. So, all right.

All right. Before you had your, Baconan, did you and her wife, did she travel to her with you? Yeah, we've done a couple of different configurations, but yeah, she used to road manage for a while, coming on the road. Yeah. Oh, so she's in the scene. Like she's just come along with. Oh, she's my manager. She's also the director of operations for. Oh, she's the one I email with, right? The Holy Smoke Festival. Yeah, that's right. Oh, okay. She's the director of operations for the festival. So, like, creative is what I do. and the Indy Tribe guys do and she does all of the operational stuff. So, yeah, she's actually, it's not something she planned on, but she's actually very accomplished now

in the music business. Wow. How is Holy Smoke going? How many years has it been now? We just did our fifth year. Fifth year? Yeah. Incredible, man.

We are, it's sold out the last three times. I'm sorry, it sold out the last, two times. And so we're going to go to a bigger venue. How many? What's selling out? A couple thousand?

Yeah. So, 1,500 per day. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So, which is the capacity of Rocket Town. So it's actually, the demand for it is,

is a lot more, but we were maxed out at that venue. So we're doing, it just takes a lot of planning with all the artists. So we're doing one more year at Rocket Town, but we're all. already planning for 2027 at a bigger venue. And tell people what it is.

What is Holy Smoke? Holy Smoke is Christian Hip Hop Festival. It's the biggest Christian hip hop festival. And, yeah, it takes place in Nashville every year. It's artists owned and operated, which means there's no, like, company or label or live nation or anything involved. It's just 100% indie tribe owning and operating it. And because of that, we really prioritize taking care of the artists in ways that other festivals do not.

We're all artists. So we've played at these different festivals. And a lot of times the deals aren't fair. The hospitality is not there. The production is not there. So we wanted to create something that was for. the artist and by the artist. And that kind of, we kind of wanted to be the fix to a lot of the problems that we saw in the industry.

So, for example, our lineup is not just based on who has the most buzz or what label has kind of like, for lack of a better term, kind of like bribed to get their artists on. but it's based on the artistry itself. Like even if you don't have a massive following, but we see that you're doing something excellent and you just haven't had the opportunity to be put on a big stage, then we put you on a stage. So we curate the lineup every year.

It's us and we decide. And then another thing we do is every artist has access to the full lighting package, full sound package, LED screen production crew all of that which typically that's not what happens

at festivals or even shows like the openers or support acts don't have you have to bring their own stuff and crew sometimes I have to bring their own stuff sometimes you just can't you literally can't use what's already there so like yeah it's actually

that's actually like standard like let's say like a microphone and like guitar so let's say like if a bigger artist took me on tour right? In the contract, it would say that I could use 60%, 70% of production available. Or I would say I can only use house production available. So what that actually means is like the headliner is going to be able to use all of the lights, all of the sound. The sound is going to actually be turned up. He's going to have access to everything. And then me, they'll literally turn my sound down.

they'll turn some of the lights off. I'll have to use the house like engineer instead of the engineer that came like on the tour. So that all happens. And it's like I know I'm like kind of pulling the curtain back on the industry, but people don't realize that. But if you've ever felt like you went to a show and you're like, man, the headliner is just so much better than the opening act. Like that might be true. but some of it is like it's actually been designed to make you feel that way. Is that why they don't allow it because they want,

yeah, 100%? Literally the spotlight on. 100%. That's why. There's no money. It's not like it costs more to like, I mean. Some of, I mean, you could maybe argue that the like not you, like having to use the house engineer or the house lighting director.

Yeah. Okay. But the thing is a lot of artists, especially go getter artists, would just pay. they would pay for that lighting director or if they could, but you can't. Oh, you can't even pay for it? No, not unless you have an artist that is like very generous.

So it really is to keep the spotlight on the main show. 100%. Yeah, I cannot stress this enough. It is designed to make the headliner look better than the support act, period. Is this just in like hip hop or is this just the music industry? No, this is the music industry. This is the music industry. This is just the music industry.

Yeah, it's like, It's like old school showbiz. It's like that in, I think, in a lot of different disciplines, but there's little tricks of the trade to make the big guys look like the big guys, you know. So what I'm saying is that, holy smoke, we don't play that game. Like, you have, again, you have access to the LED. You have access to lighting the same front of house guys we do, like all of that. And so what we've seen is by treating artists and we have great hospitality.

and like all of that. And by treating artists that way, they are excited about Holy Smoke and year over year, the best, we're seeing the best sets in Christian hip hop at Holy Smoke. And that's not,

that's not even just blowing smoke. Like, for example, what up RG? Like his sets at Holy Smoke are like, legendary. And we captured them. They're on YouTube so people can see and judge for themselves, but it's like,

people really they invest into it you know they come out of their pocket and invest because because we're giving them access to that they're doing innovative stuff you know he did this crazy thing where um he had this camera operator it was so we didn't even know he was going to do it but it was so crazy i was so gas but like he had this camera operator that was in the green room like and on the LED screen uh like in front of the audience you're live seeing like the green room and it's it's like the camera is pointing at everybody's shoes he's about to bring out a whole bunch of artists on stage but you just see their shoes and then like you see them walk out this is like yeah you see them walk on the LED you see them walk

out and you don't know where they're walking and then they appear on stage it was crazy it was like so yeah so we've had like um industry like label heads come out um um We've had, like, Brian Head Welch, who was like the lead singer of corn. He came out. Rodney Jerkins. That's not hip-hop. Does he do hip-hop now? No, no, no.

Just as, like, a fan. Oh, no way. Yeah, not performing. I'm saying these are people who have come to Holy Smoke just to see. And they're like, man, we didn't even know about this, like, culture pocket. And so it's really special. I've been wanting to bring my son out, man. And it's just every year that the scheduling just doesn't matter.

Yeah. But man, yeah. It's definitely something you have to experience to really, like, fully understand. It's like, it's less like Coachella and it's more like, like, warped tour or something. Something that's like really culturally, you know. Yeah. You know, it's just like it's like a culture pocket. It's not just, oh, we're just throwing the biggest acts.

It's like. I do a conference every year. It's not music. It's speaking. But it's same thing. It's like, it's like not like any other. Christian conference. It's kind of hard to describe until you go. And it's the same thing. We're not, we don't, I mean, people recognize little names, but it's more about the content, the vibe.

Yeah. The thoughtfulness, the meaningfulness, the character of the speakers. That's right. It's so much more, I try to make it so much more holistically, authentically, authentically Christian in everything we do. Yeah. A lot more dialogues and yeah. Yeah, it's, that's exactly the, that's a really good thing. Do you have speakers? Yeah, we do. We actually do have speakers. I'm trying to get a job right here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I was thinking about it. So we have a wing of Holy Smoke called Indy Institute.

And this is the educational and equipping wing of it. So a lot of our speakers are industry professionals. So we're also, even in that, we're trying to equip independent and up-and-coming artists with stuff like that. But also this last year, we also branched into just equipping people spiritually as well. So we had like, you know, Preston Perry and, you know, belief and Ruslan and like those guys. You know what I mean? So guys that are kind of adjacent to the, well, not J. I mean, Ruslan's in the industry.

Yeah. So it's Preston. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but more on the, those were more spiritual conversations. And then we had like also industry conversations. So it's like, it's kind of a everything converges in the institute. Okay.

Yeah. I don't know if I'm cool enough to fit. No, you're definitely cool. I don't know, man. Definitely cool enough. Yeah. I need to have my kids take me out shopping if I go to. You know, come see it first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See it first and then you can decide, you know. My family and I love the Bible recap. Tara Lee Cobbles books and podcasts are incredible resources to help you understand the Bible. And now Tara Lee and her team just produced the Bible Recap 365-day chronological study Bible. This beautifully designed study Bible, Bible features 365 scripture readings in chronological order, daily reflections on God's character and faithfulness, and insightful, easy to understand, recaps. This year-long adventure through

scripture will help you read, understand, and love the Bible, and most of all, the God who wrote it. The Bible Recap Bible is available on hardcover, soft cover imitation leather brown, and hardcover imitation leather pink. It would make a perfect, meaningful gift for a mature saint or a brand new believer. Check it out by heading over to Amazon or Bakerbookhouse.com to buy your copy today. All right, let's listen to some songs, man. So it was really hard to, we can put our headphones on, really hard to narrow this down. So I did, I wanted to pick some newer songs. So, yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's start with the song stay. Why don't you, um, And we can go back and forth.

Why don't you set this one up? And then we'll play a little bit of it. So Stay is, it's an Indy Tribe song. And it's me and John Keith on this song. We wrote and recorded this song at my house. Very, we both, you know, we both feel very connected to the song. It's very autobiographical. Okay.

It has a lot of, um, lyrics about our families and God's faithfulness and different situations that we had to grow through and go through with God. And the ultimate message is that through all the changing seasons and all the turmoil and everything that goes on in life, God remains the same and God remains faithful, even when it's kind of hard to see it. And so, yeah, it's just a beautiful song. Awesome. Go ahead, roll it, Chad. I want to keep the pace, but I might fall off. I don't want to do ones that I came with.

Mane on the fact that you're up night. You stay. Okay, see, tens, change. Fuck it what I do. I'm changing atties where you see me at. I see the facts. I'm trying to switch like seasons do. I'm reminiscing on the days when it was me and you.

Okay. I was a kid. I was a lot colder. And if I changed because she fog, could I winter over. And in the spring, and I thought like the summer's closer. I see the best part of the best part of.

of waking up you keep the fojus. Oh, that's fo' up. Oh, that's go blow up. A whole other type go-lough to go blow up. By my folks, they were so loving. It's changing and I'm not. I got sick of me. Holy Spirit, can you sit with me?

I'm trying to learn to keep the main thing. I want to keep the pains, but I'm mine for the... Oh, that's good, man. You and John, your voices. Yeah. They just go so well together, man. There's certain kinds of voices that just gel. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know. Like... Yeah, I agree. Kind of like Sunflower with, What's his face? Post Malone and Swayley. Yeah, like they're, they're, yeah, I don't know, it's just like. That's a good, hey, we'll take that.

We'll take that one. Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, we just all have really good chemistry in Indy tribe, but a lot of that is because of the relationships. Like, you know, a lot of time groups are kind of fabricated or come together because of talent. But, I mean, these are really my brothers. Like, these are, yeah, these are my guys, like, everybody's wives, everybody's kids, like, we're all uncles and aunts. So a lot of the ease and, like, the camaraderie that people, like, love about any tribe that you can actually hear in the music is just because of our real life, you know. Yeah, yeah.

So real quick, for the people, can you explain the relationship between No Big Deal as an independent artist and indie tribe? Yeah, for sure. It's kind of like, you know, let's see, what could I compare it to? Like Sting and the police? Yes.

No, that's actually, you know what? Yes. I think so. Usually I'm doing more hip-hop examples, which is why I'm laughing. Because in my head I was thinking, oh, it's kind of like Method Man and Wu-Tang Clan. Okay. And so for you to say...

I thought it was well-versed hip-hop. Yeah, yeah. But that is essentially what it is. Yes, it's like, you know, each of us are individual artists. Everyone in Indie Tribe has their own... Their own solo career. Okay. The own successful solo career.

Yeah. And then, yeah, there's the group, which is an act. in and of itself. Who is it? So you, John Keith, who are there? Oh, Lita Iceberg. Okay. DJ Mike L.V.

And Tori Deshaun. Okay. So five of you. Yeah. So like each member releases solo albums and then we release Indie Tribe albums themselves. So for example, we are, this is an exclusive too. I'm about to give you an exclusive that we haven't announced yet. But we are going on tour next April, Indie Tribe is.

All right. And so Indie Tribe has. its own discography. So like when you come to the any tribe show, you're not seeing like no big deal solo albums, John Key's solo album, you're seeing indie tribes discography, you know, because it's its own act. Just like, I mean, I think that's like Sting and the police. But I guess if you went to a police thing, you would probably be seeing like the police discography and not like the Sting discography, I think. I don't know. I don't know much about them actually. I'm trying to go with your reference.

Bono and you too. I think Bono's always you too. I don't know. So, okay, but for those people who are well-versed with more of the hip-hop, like if you went to a Method Man show, you would not be seeing the Wu-Tang discography. And if you went to the Wu-Tang Clan show, you would not be seeing the Method Man discography.

That wouldn't even make sense. So maybe it's a little bit more hip-hop specific, because that happens a lot. There's like odd future, which is like Tyler the Creator and Earl Sweatshire and Frank Ocean, they came out of this group called odd future. And they used to do tours and you would see the odd few. But if you go to a

Frank Ocean show, you're not going to see the odd future discography. You didn't even know about odd future, did you? But you know Frank Ocean. So that's a good example too. When you write with somebody, is there ever conflict? Or are you guys like, I think it should say it this way and like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think in the best creative relationships, there should be revising and push and push back and, you know, I think that's what

creates the best artwork. So I'll say, like, within Indy Tribe, oh, man, that's like, that is a, that is a massive part of our creativity is like, but we're so close. Does it ever get intense where you're like, yeah, I was going to say, I was, with me and Forrest, it was, it was a lot more, like, regular, but, like, any tribe, it gets so intense. It's like, bro, that's whack, bro, that's trash. Like, I'm not going to, lie, bro. Like, sometimes, sometimes we're like, literally something.

I'm embarrassed even thought of that line. Literally, sometimes we're like, I mean, you can, you guys can put that out, but you got to take me off the song. Like, we're like that intense with it. Like, I mean, y'all can put that song out if you want, but I'm off of that song. I feel like I'd be like that writing a book because I'm so, so picky with myself. Yeah, yeah. I mean, every word is like combed over and like tweaked and I've usually thought of five different verbs I could put here and this one. So I just, I feel like, I don't think I could actually, I've done it before once and it was a bit of a different sort of project.

But I don't think I could go right up. I don't know. I feel like I'd just be too hard to work with. They get mad at me. Any tribe gets mad at me because I, I revise myself a lot. And a lot of times I will be like, man, is this, is this theologically misleading? Is this like too edgy? And I'll take it out.

And they're like, they're so mad that I like took it out or revised it. They're like, you overthink this stuff so much. So you're a little more sensitive to how this is going to be, is this going to push people too hard? Yeah, yeah. They want a little longer leash on some things? Yeah, that's a charitable way to say it for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I'm trying to make sure this is actually glorifying Jesus correctly and presenting him correctly without anything that's misleading or might be distracting or whatever. Obviously, I'm definitely willing to push the envelope. We just talked about him. I'll go. So they probably love them.

I'll go right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't change stuff like that. Like, if it's for, if it's edgy but it's true. Yeah. Edging and accurate. I'm not going to change that. But it's just more stuff that like, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say it like that or whatever.

Or maybe it needs more context for that to actually be 100% true and without that context, maybe not. And a lot of times they're like, man, you're overthinking it or whatever. That's so funny. I wish I could be a fly on the wall. Yeah. This next song, we're going to listen to it first, but I just want to say this is my favorite indie tribe song.

It's competing. It's up there with my favorite indie tribe or No Big Deal song. And I listen to it at the gym probably every single day, especially on Leg Day. Yeah. Old school. Especially on Leg Day. I just feel like a back in 1994.

Like it's just, I love this song so much. Go ahead and roll it. And then I want to hear some thoughts from Dylan here. Yeah. The beat is insane. Yeah. I mean, the lyrics are good. The sound is awesome.

Shout out DJ Mike L.V. Oh, my word. Would the Lord forgive me if I killed a beat? Would it be a sin if I had did it for the Trinity? Jesus said that we should have affection for our enemies. Did he flip the tables? Think I'm picking up the rest of the rest of. That's you right there.

Yeah, that's me. I don't pop a pill. I need a verse, not a bike at him. Is that John? That's John, yeah. Do you love this song? Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's, I'm not going to lie.

It's a classic, man. It's a classic. Yeah, the thing is, like, if we were born earlier, I think we would have been one of the biggest groups in the world. I really do. Like, was this song designed, this is designed to have the more old school. Oh, yeah, of course.

I think that all the time, I'm like, man, we were born, like, in the 80s, and then we came out with this stuff, it would just, it would have been, like, the top stuff. So I don't know hip-hop much at all, honest. I mean, this is, everything you're hearing for me is the extent of my hip-hop knowledge. But, like, this song and a couple others,

I'm like, that sounds just more old-school, even though I didn't even listen to old-school hip-hip-hop. So it's designed to be a little... Yeah, it's like a throwback sound. you know. Because that, I mean, that sound was, that golden, we call it golden era hip hop. Yeah. That time period was just amazing.

What, is it 90s or? Yeah, it's like early 90s. Okay. That sound right there is like early 90s. Okay. For sure. It's almost like time periods of hip hop are almost subgenres of hip hop at this point. Really?

Yeah. So instead of it just being like, oh, that's a rap song from like, like, Like 1994, it's almost like that that's a subgenre now. You can do any of the sounds that hip hop has ever gone through in a time period, and it's more of just a subgenre of hip-hop because hip-hop is so vast now. Like that right there is hip-hop,

but also like Travis Scott is hip-hop, right? And those things sound nothing alike. Okay. So, yeah. One way is my favorite song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one way is still my favorite just because it's just nostalgic to me.

But Tribe on the move is like right there. But they have very similar, similar, right? Yeah. So that's actually a good, those are two good ones to look at because one way is, it's actually not like,

like that beat wouldn't have been made in the 90s. Yeah. But the feel of it gives you that nostalgic feel, right? Whereas Tribe on the move actually, like that could have come out in the early 90s.

You know what I mean? So like one way, is kind of a product of what I was talking about about, like, there's different subgenres of hip hop. And that's just more in that, like, nostalgic subgenre versus it actually being, like, a throwback type beat, like Tribunal Movement. All right, this next one comes from, I think, your latest EP, Imago Interlude. Yeah, it's actually, that's off my album, The People We Became, which is my most recent album. The 2024, I think. Yeah.

I want to listen to this whole thing, or go to, like, a minute. But why don't you set this one up? Because the lyrics on this one, man, I'm like, dang, dude, this is right up my alley, dude. So you're dealing with politics and culture, touching on some stuff. Yeah, I mean, this song is like really, like straight to the heart of things that I really care about, like as a person. This was written shortly after, like, the October 7th. attacks on Israel and then the fallout of like everything that we went through with with Israel and Palestine and and and Ukraine Russia and police brutality and

poverty and just this whole like kind of tailspin that we've kind of been in but I feel like after October 7th like a lot of stuff stuff kind of rose to the top. And this was a response that I had to that pretty close to when that happened. And then after, like, since the song has come out, it's almost like, I'm using this term loosely, but it's almost like the song was prophetic in that it, the song makes more sense now than when I put it out, if that makes sense. Like the world has continued to go the way that the song is kind of discussing.

Yeah. But are we going to talk about it after? You want me to... Let's listen to it in there. Yeah. And yeah, you guys, pay attention to the lyrics are just so crisp and intentional. It's really good. Christian music or music that Christians use to get their fix.

Just another hit with the clicks and views. Officially, I don't play by your silly rules. We independent because that's how I felt the spirit move. Look for Yeshua. I didn't see him on the tool. I couldn't find him on the web. I saw him on the corner begging for some drugs and food. I couldn't stop because I'm a little late for Sunday school.

Christian music or music that Christians use. I read epistles and take a sip with a liquor too. And everyone you listen to, I saw they did it too. I saw a lot of can pledge allegiance to assist them feeding off a food. Christian music or music that Christians use. I look for Jesus and I didn't see him on the news. Saw him in Palestine, the power lines were out of juice. He was an iron roof.

Saw him in Zion, too, a missile through attack. roof. A father clinging to his child pleading out to you. So in Kiev and Moscow. The bleeding won't stop now. The cop in the black body, he shot down. Christian music of music that Christians used. Look for Messiah. I couldn't find him in interviews. Sitting in silence, I felt an ancient pool. He said to be Samaritan to Army rockets over top of Tel Aviv. Colonizer shipping people cross the seven seas. You don't know Jesus till you see him in your enemy. Geez, a final line. Yeah.

Final line. That lyric, golly. Yeah. Yeah. That last line actually was the first line that came to me for the song. Oh, really? You don't know Jesus till you see him in your enemy. So my writing process happens a lot like that, where I get the kind of key lyric or like the thesis maybe of the song first, and then I build everything around.

that. And yeah, so I just was kind of exploring the idea of, you know, Amago Day, like the image of God, the fact that all humans have the image of God created in the image of God. Yes, it's marred by sin, but we all have the likeness of God in us and that we should, we should be able to see that in each other, which creates inherent value in every human being that is unique to humans. It's not the same as animals or anything else. Like there is a unique value inherently before you can provide anything or have any opinions just by existing, you know, regardless of your mental faculties, you know, you just have it. And I think that every, every atrocity, genocide, like injustice that has ever happened starts with dehumanization of the other.

And again, this is one of those things that points to the truth of God and of the scripture is that we kind of know that humans have inherent value. And we have different ways of saying it and we argue it in different ways, but we kind of know that, which is why every, again, genocide has to start with chipping away at that. Yeah. Because we can't, we can't look at a human and fully accept them as something created in the image of God and then do something unjust to them. We have to, in our minds, decide they're not as human as me. Like it always, you're never just looking at somebody who you are just like, oh, you are, you are just as valuable as me. And then you do injustice to them. You have to dehumanize them. Or you have to puff yourself up either way. Yeah.

You know. And so in the song, as I was writing it, man, there was so much like pushback to this song. Really? Yeah, just different lyrics in there because I kind of, the way I wrote it was I want everybody to encounter an enemy. as they're listening to this song so that the last line hits harder. Oh, so the last line really is bringing the whole thing, the whole point together is wrapped up

in that last line. Yep, so my goal before that line was for everybody at somewhere in the song to encounter an enemy. Interesting. And I remember while I was writing, I was like, even if the enemy is me for saying these things.

Like I want everybody to encounter an enemy before they hear that line, essentially. So that's so you know a lot of people really didn't like, talking about Jesus, I saw him on the corner begging for some drugs and food. So I got a lot of pushback on it. I got people who said, okay, we understand like the homeless thing. We understand the food, but why did you put drugs in there? And I put drugs in there specifically because I'm trying to say that everybody has the image of God, not just the people that you like, not just just the people who

already fit within your program. Like, it needed to say drugs, because everybody feels pretty good. Oh, you don't have food. You know what I mean? Yeah. So. And the person begging for food and drugs on the corner

is, like, everybody, sinful, has made sinful choices. Yeah. But also a product of sinful systems and a victim of, I think my view is, I think addiction is just as much a result of, an inner 20, a sinful choices, but also being a victim of capital S sin in the world.

That's right. And so we should have not outrage towards somebody addicted to drugs, but somebody like empathy and not enablement. Yeah. But like sat like gosh, like to get to a point to where you're so addicted to something that you are now controlled by something out of your control. You need other image bearers to come alongside you. Like that is your only hope. You can't do this on your own. You need other people.

You need Jesus. Yeah. So I don't know. I like that line. I can see where you would stir it up a little bit. So but what I'm, and I agree with everything you said. That's where I land on it too.

But I think what I'm saying is a little bit more extreme. I'm saying even if it is fully their fault. Like that's why the song continues and it has, you know, it has the cop and the black body he shot down, right? Oh, yeah. It has, you know, it has, you know, it has like preachers who are grifters, you know what I mean?

Like, it has people who it is their fault. Yeah. It is their fault. And that they still have the image of God, right? So the scripture, so here's the thing. There's no right side. Yeah. You can't pick a, like the second you say Kiev and then you also say Moscow.

Yeah, yeah. Palestine. There you go. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. It's not both sidesism. It's we are all creating the image of God.

And oftentimes it's the innocent image bearers that are the greatest victim of these conflicts anyway rather than the two warring. Yeah, it's not both sidesism, but also it's just like, I don't even know if I have an aversion to people being like, oh, that's both sides because that, like, they would have said that about Jesus, 100%. Like they would have said that because every time like they try to trap Jesus like in okay well you came to fulfill the law well this woman's caught in adultery like the law is to stone her like it doesn't it seem like he does a both sides thing where he says like the law is good the law will never pass away and I've come to fulfill it and also right here I desire mercy and to not exact the letter of the law on this woman because which of you hasn't sent right? So, like, I think they would have said that about him. So I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about, I'm worried about representing Jesus correctly, right? And his word says to love your neighbor and to love your enemy, right? To bless and to not curse them, even when they spitefully use you.

So he doesn't, like, people try to, like, work around it like, ah, yeah, but, you know, maybe when he says enemy, he doesn't mean this person or, or, or, or. when he says enemy, he means like, oh, they're a spiritual enemy, but spitefully use you. Not that enemy, though. Persecute you. Bless those who persecute you. You know what I mean? And then, and one of my favorite things about how Jesus talks about neighbor and enemy is when, when asked who is my neighbor, when the guy asked Jesus, who is my neighbor? Because he says that, you know, to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as your neighbor as your neighbor.

self. Guy says, who is my neighbor? He's trying to, he, he's trying to like make a category for who his neighbor is. Like he feels like he's fulfilled all of the commandments and he's like, well, who's my neighbor? And instead of telling him who his neighbor is, Jesus tells the story of the good Samaritan. And he says, who was a neighbor? Right. He switches it.

He switches it to who was a neighbor. the Levites and the priests, the Jews or the Samaritan. And he has to say the Samaritan, right? And then he says, so you go, like, you go be a neighbor. So the answer to who is my neighbor is you go be a neighbor to everybody. You know what I mean? And even in that, the Samaritan is somebody that a Jew would consider an enemy. And Jesus makes him the hero.

He makes the present. enemy of Jews, the hero of the story that he's using to tell a Jew to go be a neighbor to everybody. Like, masterful. Yeah. But also, it's telling us that, like, Jesus is like, you could call that person a neighbor. You could call him an enemy. But what I'm telling you to do is exactly the same. Their imago.

It's to love them because of the image of God, right? So anyway, in the song, I'm, yeah, I'm trying. to make everybody encounter an enemy. I don't want really anybody to feel like just happy with me by the end of the song. I want that line to, you know, and not for no reason, because, but I want, I mean, and a lot of people have had that experience, like they've reached out and said to me like,

man, that line actually like shifted my heart and my thinking. Really? Yeah, yeah, on like, on so much, you know. we see this all the time in the news though like you know somebody from one side I mean we'll just talk about it like we I saw this with Charlie Kirk crazy so like he's assassinated right

and we I see two major reactions first of all he's that's him being assassinated is absolutely evil right it is anti-christ it is tragic, terrible, horrible. Like, it should go without saying, right?

Full stop, yeah. I'm seeing two major reactions. One is he is a martyr. And then, I'm talking about online, not real, because online is different than real people in real life. In real life, I'm seeing much more nuanced stuff. And then, so, well, on one side, let me represent this correctly. On one extreme, I'm seeing he was a martyr for Christ.

And because of that, we need to usher in Christian nationalism, possibly violent Christian nationalism. And we need to take out our enemies. We need to silence our enemies. And you know what? Maybe some of these things that we were being gentle on. you know, maybe maybe some of these like nationalist extremists were right on

like on race and everything. Like maybe we should just wholesale like you know, go hard in the paint. You know what I'm saying? And then on the other extreme, I'm literally seeing people making memes of his death.

Like I try not to watch videos of death. Like I really hit rock bottom around like between 2016 and 2018 with seeing videos online of people dying. Oh, really? Yeah, just like whether it was police brutality or it was war or whatever it was. And I was like, I don't think this is something that I can, I don't think we're meant to see that. I don't think I can sustain this.

So since then, I have really tried not to watch them. So I hadn't seen his death. Like, whenever I was talking about it, I'm like, just send it to me in words because I want to know it and I want to mourn, but I don't want to see the video. Because I hadn't seen it. I'm getting on social media and I'm seeing people making memes out of the actual video, like adding graphics to it and like turning his death into a verb and like celebrating it. And this is the heart of Amago.

This problem that I'm talking about is like what Amago is supposed to. address. Like, I don't, I really don't think Jesus would have had either, well, I know he wouldn't have had either of those reactions. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, 100%. And so that's what Amango's getting at is like, we're over here, like, crush our enemies in the name of Christ. It's like, guys, that's literally backwards. Like, we are far from, that's, that's not what Christ did. Yeah. That's literally not what our God did. Like, that's another religion that. That's, says crush our enemies, stamp out everybody else, and impose our will upon the earth. That's what they wanted Jesus to do.

Right, right, right. And he refused to do it. He laid his life down and he told us the greatest love is to lay our life down, right? And then obviously he would not be the thing, even if you thought, which is not true, but even if you thought Charlie Kirk was a. raging, violent, racist, Christian nationalist, whatever it is, that could never be the Christian response, ever, no matter what. Right.

You know? And so that, yeah, that's what I'm trying to get to with the Mago is like, can we just really look at Jesus and just whatever he, whatever he really did and really said, let's just do that, whether it makes us popular. with our in group in echo chamber or not, let's just do that. Whether we lose opportunities, whether, let's just do that. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

You guys listening, go find that song on your socials and spread it around it. I just love how destabilizing in the most positive sense it is. It sounds like you're going after it. It sounds like it's achieving that result. And I love how even you, the way you just navigated the challenge. tensions around Charlie Kirk's assassination because it's super sensitive. But I literally just had a podcast earlier this morning. We just put a half hour on his death.

Was he a political martyr, Christian martyr? What did he stand for? I'm going to have to listen to that. Dylan, man, thanks for making a drive out here, man. This has been so much fun. I have other songs here, but I got to wrap this up. Yes, sir. I just hope for those of you who have not either listened to or heard of no big deal.

I think last time you came on, I know a lot of my people were like, I got to check this guy out. Yeah. Hopefully I sent some people your way. But, yeah, we love people to go check out as music. You got to taste me here. Dylan, thanks so much for your music. Yeah, most of all, man, thanks for your heart.

Love it. Love your authenticity and their genuine commitment to Christ, man. Yes, sir. It speaks volumes. It comes through in your music for sure. Thank you. I love being on this podcast, man. I have to do it again.

Anytime. Yeah. All right. Oh, dude, that was so much fun. Yeah. And this quality is going to be way better. Yeah, yeah, yeah.