Theology in the Raw - From Success to Burn Out in the Christian Worship Industrial Complex: Jesse Reeves

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

Jesse Reeves is a songwriter, musician, church planter, and father. As a songwriter, he has co-written several songs that are sung in the church around the world today including “How Great is Our God,” “I Speak Jesus,” “Our God,” “I Will Rise, “Lord, I Need You,” and more. As a musician, Jesse spent 17 years leading worship, touring and playing bass guitar in the Chris Tomlin Band. As a church planter, Jesse and his wife, Janet, have been a part of planting The Austin Stone Community Church in Austin, Tx and Passion City Church in Atlanta, Georgia. He and Janet have four children and live in Austin, Tx, where they pastor a network of house churches called KingsPorch. In this episode, I sit down with Jesse to talk about his rise to success in the Christian worship world, his burnout and dechurched experience, and how God rebuilt a robust faith and love for the church in Jesse's heart. Subscribe today to the Pour Over Today! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-pour-over-today/id1583657464 Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

That's the sound of unaged whiskey, transforming into Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey in Lynchburg, Tennessee. Around 1860, nearest green taught Jack Daniel how to filter whiskey through charcoal for a smoother taste, one drop at a time. This is one of many sounds in Tennessee with a story to tell. To hear them in person, plan your trip at tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is

Jesse Reeves, who is a father, musician, songwriter, church planner, and a pastor. As a musician, Jesse spent 17 years leading worship touring and playing bass guitar in the Chris Tomlin band. And as a songwriter, he's co-written several songs that you might be familiar with, like How Great Is Our God, Our God, I Will Rise, Indescribable, Lord, I Need You, and many others. Jesse also played in the band and the worship team for the Exiles Conference this last spring in Boise, Idaho. And as I say in the podcast, one of my regrets during that conference is not being able to hang out with Jesse Moore. We had a couple of passing conversations, but he really does have a

remarkable story and incredibly humble heart and has been through a lot. And he tells his very raw story on this episode. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Jesse Reeves. Jesse Reeves, my goodness. Welcome to Theology and I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I'm half excited to be here and half like scared to death. This is crazy. Oh man. Where do we start? I, I told you this on stage and I will say it again. So yeah, I, one of my biggest regrets at last X I was not, did not get a chance a long conversation with this guy. So that's kind of why we're here. So despite your Rangers hat, I got no animosity towards the Rangers at all. They're, they're kind of out of sight, out of mind or I root for them unless they're going to

compete with my Dodgers. So you're, you're more than welcome to keep that. I feel like I need to get my Dodger hat though. I got't help it. I'm Texas forever. Texas forever. What a season. Yeah, let's just go. I mean that I was once my Dodgers got knocked out. I was like, man, what a season for Texas, dude. That that yeah, that was great. I was a fan. It's it's been a long time coming and I've been in the game for a while now.

I've been in the game for a season for Texas, dude. That, that, yeah, that was great. I was a fan. It's a, it's been a long time coming and I've been there just through all the sucky years. Yeah. I may or may not have taken my shirt off and run around the neighborhood when we won. I like that the team is, you know, there's certain teams like the Astros that are just I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie.

I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to lie ranger fans not like, is it a rival? I don't even know this. Astros. Well, we didn't, we didn't care much about them when they were in the national league, but now they're in our division. So yeah, they're our biggest. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't, the attitude. I don't know. They've lost a lot of the attitudes, Korea and others, but yeah, Rangers. So when I see the Rangers, I'm like, this, these, these, this seems like a good, like good, I'm sure they have their issues, but I'm like, I root these, these, this seems like a good, like good, I'm sure they have their issues, but I'm like, I root for Corey Seeger, man. How can you not like Corey Seeger? Dude,

the guy's a baller. We'll see. There's our common ground. We'll start there. We'll start with Corey Seeger for the majority of my listeners. I probably don't care about baseball. We should probably get into something more Christian. You've completely lost everybody already right off the top. I would actually love to do like a baseball podcast. That would be so much fun. Oh man.

But let's jump in. Jesse, who is, for those who don't know who Jesse Reeves is, I've already intro'd you a little bit, but tell, yeah, you can go as far back as you want. How about this? When did you get into the worship industry and what did that look like for you? How far ago was that? Man, where do I start? It's kind of like, you know, I always say stereotypes are always

true. When people think of Texas and they think of everybody here, like growing up on a ranch and riding horses and roping cows and all that. That's literally how I grew up. I mean, I know you can't tell, but my dad's a rancher. He's like, his whole life was cows. I grew up showing Angus cattle. Like that was, that's what I did. And then when I was 15, I was also raised in the church. So like my dad was an elder of the church. It was very like a very conservative Bible church, you know, with the music minister, the guy that stands up doing this with his hands. And so I'd never heard of worship music. I got saved at a Christian concert when I was 15 and just prayed that night. I literally

didn't pray, God, I want to get into music. I prayed, God, whatever you want me to do, I'll do that. And so long story short, two weeks later, I actually got in the band that was playing the night I got saved. I started playing bass for that band. The night you got saved? That's wild, man. Yeah, it was weird. And then I did that all the way through college. So that happened my sophomore year in high school. Played all the way through college. We signed a record deal, went to Nashville, did all the stuff. We were called Between Thieves and we sold dozens and dozens of records. I mean, that's not bragging.

That was over like a 10 year period. Anyway, I got married in 97. Decided I needed to do more than play bass, so I quit that band and got married in July of 97. In August of 97, I got a call from this country boy in Grand Saline, Texas named Chris Tomlin. And he asked me if I would play bass for him. And I was like, nope, can't. I just got married.

I got to grow up. And he was like, well, I need somebody this weekend. Will you play for me this weekend? And I was like, well, I need somebody this weekend. Will you play for me this weekend? And I was like, sure, I'll do it once. So in Texas, we have these conferences, like youth conferences called Hot Hearts. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. It's kind of like a true love waits, rally type thing.

So that's the first thing I played with Chris. And I'd never heard worship music. Being raised in the church, I'd never heard worship music. Being raised in the church, I'd never heard worship music. And I remember specifically playing that night, and Chris had written a song called We Fall Down. And I remember playing that song, and I felt like God said, this is what I've been training you for. So I was like, okay. So I started playing for Chris and you know, in the first years, he couldn't pay me anything. So I taught elementary school for four years. And then the fourth year I was teaching second grade and we got asked to go on tour with a band called Delirious. No way. You played for Delirious?

I know you played for... Yeah, that was our first tour. And so I missed 40 days of school as a teacher. And my wife was my full-time substitute, so principal was okay with it. And I just never went back. It's kind of things started snowballing after that. Real quick, when you started playing for Chris,

this is like late 90s, you're saying? Is this before he was nationally known? Or was he more local? Oh yeah, yeah. Nobody knew who he was. Oh, okay. Wow. No, that was like, he led worship at a Bible study at Texas A&M called Breakaway. And that was it. We would play 13 summer camps every summer. In fact, how great Is Our God is probably what changed everything for us because, you know, we were just killing ourselves to try to, you know, be on the road enough to make enough money. And then we wrote How Great Is Our God at a summer camp, you know, for high school and junior high students,

just because they hated us, you know, and they're all just basically giving us the mental middle finger while we're trying to lead worship. And literally we were like, man, we need to write like a simple, simple song that kids will grab onto. And literally like the first time we played it, I don't know if you, do you ever read the Babylon Bee? I glance at it every now and then.

Yeah, I just get it. Like the Instagram pops up. But there was an article of the Babylon Bee of a worship leader that got caught in the vortex between the chorus and the bridge of how great is our God and couldn't get out of it. But that happened the first time we played it for a bunch of students and like we ended the song and they went straight back into the bridge you know name above all names and then we would end it and then they would go again how great so it was kind of like, something that's cool that students like this song, but had no idea what would happen.

Like you just, you don't know when you write a song, what it's going to do. How does it rip? Yeah. What? How does a song like that break out of this summer camp and become this like song that's sung by, I don't know how many millions or billions of people over the years? I mean, it's just, do they start telling people about it, telling people and people start asking for you to play it again? Honestly, I just think it's the Holy Spirit.

And we can get into that if you want, but it used to be the Holy Spirit. Let me say it that way. Yeah, nobody knew who Chris was when we wrote that song. And it just, it was a slow burn. You know, it just real slowly climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and went up the charts in CCLI, which is, you know, that's the only charts that I care about. And that's, if you don't know

what CCLI is, that's when churches sing songs. Okay, yeah. So, you know, when you're, when you got words on the screen and there's a little number at the bottom, that doesn't mean anything to anybody but a songwriter. But when churches report that, that's called CCLI. And it went to number one on CCLI and stayed there for like years. And I'm sure we'll get into this later, but financially, what does that mean? Is it every time a church sings that song, does the songwriter get compensation for that? Or how does that work?

So churches are legally supposed to report royalties. A lot of churches don't because they don't know they're supposed to. But it's just like when you go into a restaurant and they're playing music that Muzak has to report royalties. And so churches are supposed to report the songs that they sing. And CCLI keeps track of that

and then pays the writers quarterly. So I don't need numbers, but I mean, you must have made, you guys must have made a ton of money off there. I mean, how great is our God still pays my bills? Really? And we wrote that song in 2002. So you still get checks, quarterly checks from that song. Yeah, today's the 15th.

I'll get paid today. Oh, wow. Wow. I guess it's like a book. I mean, you write a book or York Times number one bestselling book for years and years and years and still selling well now. You see, yeah. Book royalties are way better than songwriting. Okay. And people tell me all the time that I should write a book and I'm just like, man, I don't even like to read books because of the time commitment. My, my, my, my book is a book. I'm not a book writer. I'm not a book writer. I'm not a book writer that I should write a book and I'm just like man, I don't even like to read books because of the time commitment much less right

You just get a ghostwriter somebody write it for you have me I'll write it for you What do you want to write about? No, I would yes. Let's go. I know you love to write I do love to write I hated to read and write for a good chunk of my life So it definitely didn't come naturally. But okay, so write. I hated to read and write for a good chunk of my life. So it definitely didn't come naturally. But okay. So, Hey, I will tell you this Preston. I did read Exile. You did right on. Yeah. I think the last book I read before that was Hank the Cowdog. I'm not going to ask you which one you like better. Oh, that's good, man. That's one of the shorter books I've written. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that.

I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that.

I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that.

I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of, I mean, I've never been famous. I'm still not famous. I just have been around a lot

of famous people because nobody cares who writes songs. But it was really, there were two things, probably How Great Is Our God started happening. And then if you'll remember in the late 90s and early 2000s, radio would not play worship music. They would play worship music on Sunday morning from like seven to nine. Oh wow, okay. And that was it. And so there was no hope of us ever having radio play. But Michael W. Smith recorded one of Chris's songs called Forever and the radio started playing it and it started really picking up steam. And I

mean honestly, that song was one of the songs that opened up the door for Christian radio to play, yeah, worship music. But honestly, man, in those days, there wasn't... Worship music was a new thing. And it's kind of awesome. When you're in it, you don't realize it, but looking back, in those years, God was doing something across the globe. Over here, like over here, you know, we started having success in England. You had Delirious, but you also had Matt Redmond starting up over there and Tim Hughes and all those guys and Australia Hillsong United. Like everything was kind of, there was this groundswell of worship music, which people today don't realize that before that, it wasn't there. Jesus Movement stuff was awesome,

but, and I still love those songs, but there was no industry behind it, if that makes sense. Delirious, I loved Delirious. So they came out, I started listening to them right at that kind of cusp where I felt guilty for listening to ACDC and Guns N' Roses and then you get saved, like, there's still kind of rocks, but I'm not going to play it too loud now, Rush and all these bands. And then the Christian worship was just, it's just like flat.

But then you started having bands like delirious and others and audio adrenaline, all, you know, they could, they kind of Christian rock, you know, scene. I was like, Hey, this isn't too bad. This is actually pretty good. You know, like then of course DC talked as blew the doors open and everything. And so, but it was in that, but delirious had almost, it wasn't just Christian, right? It was like, had that kind of worship. I'm talking about your own band, but I mean, it really hit, I was like, this is, I love this stuff. This is so good. It kind of, Oh, absolutely. I remember the first time I heard, did you feel the mountains tremble? Yeah. Oh, is this like, it's unbelievable. And that song today, if a worship leader will,

I mean, if you're listening, play that in your set Sunday and watch what happens. It still happens. It's crazy. Wow. It's amazing how some songs just last and they're powerful and you can play them over and over. It's kind of like U2.

I mean, every famous U2 song, I can still hear it. It's still like, this is so good. But a lot of this stuff is going to be my old, my boomer coming out of me right now. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I agree. Okay. So you're, yeah. So you start playing in bigger bands, touring. What was that like? What was that?

What's that world look like? They gone like more times than you're at home. I mean, how's that on your family? How's that in your soul? Oh man. Yeah. You need to talk to my wife. For me, it was awesome because you're, you know, you're living on a tour bus with your

best friends. You're all within 45 feet of each other at all times. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place.

And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're all in the same place. And you're, you know, you're living on a tour bus with your best friends. You're all within 45 feet of each other at all times and eating catering. And at the same time, my wife's at home raising four kids. And yeah, that's where it starts getting tricky, man, because you're really like in my heart of hearts, it was that we're building the kingdom. We're really doing good work and this is a sacrifice that's

worth it. But man, honestly, 30 years later, I don't know if that's the right decision or not. Why not, yeah. Luckily, I mean, God's been very gracious to my family. And my oldest daughter is 23 and still loves Jesus. You know, all my kids walk with the Lord. So I didn't screw him up too bad, but there's, I mean, that's where we can get into it. They went from me playing arenas and being on tour, renting a tour bus, to this kind of crisis of faith that I'm sure we'll talk about that, nah, it wasn't a faith. I went through some sort of crisis, I don't know what to call it, but to where my pendulum swung all the way over, when I quit, I didn't allow worship

music to be played in my house for three years. Really? No. My kids would listen to worship like they were doing cocaine, like with a lookout. You know, like, hey, dad's coming, turn it off, turn it off. I didn't believe in it. I didn't want to hear it. It just stirred up all kinds of bad stuff in my soul.

And at the same time, we were church planners, so we had started a church in Austin called, or been a part of starting a church in Austin, called the Austin Stone, which is now six campuses and probably 8,000 people. Then we moved to Atlanta and helped start Passion City Church, which is, you know, however many campuses they have now, thousands of people. So at the same time, I also left all of that and like ended up at a house church. And so my kids kind of had all their gear stripped of,

wait, wait, what's real, what's right, what's good. And so I really do thank God that they're not too screwed up. This episode is sponsored by The Poor Over Podcast. Oh Oh my word. I love the Pore Over podcast. It is a trustworthy news resource guiding people toward eternal hope. It's not Republican, it's not Democrat, it's not conservative, it's not liberal. Instead it is a Christ centered summary of the major events going on in politics and in culture. Like most of you, I am so tired of news outlets that are so clearly biased toward the right or to the left. I want to stay informed with what's going on, but I hate how traditional news outlets

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who might vote differently than you. Instead, check out and subscribe to the Pore Over podcast in your favorite podcast app. This episode is brought to you by New Balance Running. New Balance believes if you run, you're a runner. Whether you're going for your first ever run around the park or going for your personal best in a marathon, speed, strength, stamina, whatever goal you're working toward, New Balance has the running shoes, clothes, and accessories to push your run further and help you run

your way. Find yours at newbalance.ca slash running. New Balance you run your way. Find yours at newbalance.ca slash running new balance run your way. Can you take, let's take us back to your, your, your pinnacle of success touring. You guys are, you know, going gangbusters, if planning arenas planning really well-known massive churches to then you said you wouldn't even allow worship in the house. Take us, unpack that kind of period of your life. What's going on there?

So when you're, man, I told you this pre-recording, but I just want to be careful to honor people. But I'll just say this, this is my journey. Maybe for other people it's different. like honor people, you know, but I'll just say this, this is my journey. Maybe like for other people, it's different, but when you get to that level and you're playing arenas every night, and you, you know, it's Groundhog Day.

It's like, it's literally the same day every single day. Like your bus parks underground, you walk out, you're in a concrete building, there's tape on the floor that tells you catering's this way, bathrooms this way, dressing rooms this way, stages this way. And that kind of dictates your day every day. Eat catering, you know, do a sound check,

play a show, get back on the bus, and go do the exact same thing the next day. Well then you're also like, you get your set down and you start, you're playing the exact same set every single night. And every single night, you would do, we would do meet and greets with people and people would say, man, I just really felt the Holy Spirit at this time. Well, when that's the same time every single night, I started asking questions like, is the Holy Spirit waiting in the wings until his cue, and then he's just gonna come in and blow everybody away,

or are we manipulating people with certain core progressions and lights and smoke and all the stuff to make them feel like they're encountering God, but it's spiritual manipulation? And if it's the latter, then I believe that we're going to stand before Jesus one day and have to answer for that, for all the people that were tricked into thinking they were encountering God. Which one do you think it is, looking back? That's a good question, Preston. It's impossible to answer, I guess.

I think it's both. I think that it is manipulation, but I think that God is so good that He still meets people in that moment. For a long time, I thought there was like nothing, no redemptive quality of that. And now I'm just like, no, God, He's so good, man. He's so good. If you just look across the gamut of this culture of celebrity Christians, like I keep asking the question, like, why does God just not shut it all down?

And I think the answer is because He's that good. And people are still getting to, like they're still encountering him in things that in my mind are not awesome. You've lived in the world of, you used a phrase, celebrity, Christian, celebrity, Christianity, probably met and probably done ministry with most of the names that we would probably all And I don't know how, as he said, I want to honor it. You don't want to like bad mouth people or whatever, but that world, you know, talked offline. You've hinted at it here, did not help your faith. Um, in many ways. Um, can you unpack some of that or?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. world, you know, talked offline, you've hinted at it here, did not help your faith in many ways. Can you unpack some of that? I'll say this, man. I feel like the enemy is very crafty. That's just the bottom line. He's just very crafty. And I feel like there's a, okay, this has been my experience.

Again, I'm just going to say my experience. I feel like most people that are in the industry started off with a, he must increase and I must decrease, like mentality. I really do believe that people get into it with that. He must increase, I must increase, right? And then when they start getting a little bit of success, the enemy slowly shifts your mind to, I must increase so he can increase.

Okay. If that makes sense. Like if I get a bigger platform, then I will be able to tell more people about Jesus. Yeah. So the motivation's still decent. It is, but it's shifting. Like you never heard John the Baptist say that.

Like if I increase, then he'll increase. No. But then with more success, this is where it gets slippery is it turns to he must increase so I can increase. And that's where I've parted ways with a bunch of people. Because you saw that mindset, you feel like whether they would say it like that or not is fairly prevalent once somebody gets more and more and more kind of success in the Christian industry. It's more prevalent than you would hope or think. Did that play a role in your growing, you can word it however you want, I'm going to

say you're growing aversion to Christian worship? Or what led to, so you already said that like the possible manipulation that you were participating in, what else kind of led to your aversion to Christian worship to the point to where your kids feel, you know, like they're looking at porn when they're watching, listening to Christian worship to the point to where your kids feel like they're looking at porn when they're listening to Christian worship. Quick, hide it! I know. Man, I think for me, it was just always this internal struggle of feeling like that I was

losing my first love, you know? And it's kind of like, I think as long as you're struggling with it, you're still in the love, you know? And it's kind of like, I think as long as you're struggling with it, you're still in the fight, you know? And so there's probably people that figure out how to make a balance and do both. I couldn't. I tried, I mean, that's a long story, but I stayed three years longer than I was supposed to.

Because before the last tour, I was like, I'm for sure quitting. And I saw the tour dates come out and it had Red Rocks on there and it had Madison Square Garden on there. And I was like, God, you really, it would be good for you to have me out there. You know, again, coming back to you too,

I've wanted to play Red Rocks since Under the Blood Red Sky. What was that in 1984? Like, I just wanted to play there because I saw U2 play there. I mean, I didn't see them. I saw videos of it. I was nine. But yeah, so I stayed too long. And that last year I was just, I was miserable because I was at war inside myself of what I felt like I was being called to do. So when I finally quit, I don't know, I was just in a real dark place. And I think that's self-inflicted because I stayed too long. Well, tell us, so you quit.

Actually, I do have another question related to that growing aversion to Christian worship. Was that related to any kind of aversion or disdain for the church or maybe not the Bride of Christ church, but the, you know, people call it the institutional church or the church machine. Or one of my friends calls it the church industrial complex, you know, like just that evangelical machine that has loads of awesome people doing stuff and doing good work. And yet there is, you know, some structural stuff, some money stuff, some fame stuff that gets woven into that, that could be questionable, you know, challenging.

Well, um, so when I quit playing for Chris, I immediately went and started working for the Austin Stone because we moved back to Austin and I was the family pastor there for three years over all kids and students and looking back on that I really think that everything I did for those three years was wrong. Okay. Because all I knew how to do was to make it bigger and flashier. Like better sound systems, better videos, better lights, you know, to try to make people engaged. But, you know, the the adage of what you use to attract people is what you have to use to keep them. If Jesus isn't enough, then you just have to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So I did that for three years.

My wife came to me in 2017 and she said, Jesus told me something this morning and you're not going to like it. And I was like, uh-oh. And, you know, Janet, I've been married to Janet for a really long time. And I know that when she tells me God told her something that he told her something, so I don't even question it anymore. So I was like, well, what did he say? And she said, he told me that you had to quit going to church for one year. you had to quit going to church for one year. Wow. And I was like, what?

She said, yeah, he told me that you have been paid to be a Christian since you were 15 years old, and it's gonna take you a year to figure out who Jesus is again. Oh my word. So I did. My last day at the stone was December 1st of 2017. Took that whole year off. And we didn't go to church. We just would read the Bible as a family and, you know, kind

of just go through it that way. Janet was studying the book of Acts. I started reading this book by—I did read another book, Preston. I read a book called The Forgotten Ways by Alan Hirsch. Oh yeah. Alan's... he'll mess with you. You know all these people. I don't know if people love him or hate him. That book transformed my life. When you saw... you know, in the New Testament it says that thousands were coming to know Christ daily. And you fast forward to today, where we have the most mega churches, we have the most money, we have the most resources, and we have the most and we have the most Christian music for Crying Out Loud,

which is what I've given my life to, and we have the fewest amount of people in history coming to know Christ. So, I used the word crisis earlier. My crisis was realizing that everything I'd done for the last 20 years doesn't move the needle. And so, that's where we started asking these questions of, well, what did they do different in the New Testament? What happened?

I mean, as you, bro, I listened to you enough to know, like, you know all the things, but basically in this book, and you can refute it, but in this book it says that thousands were coming to know Christ daily for the first 300 years until Constantine signed the Edict of Milan. And when he did that, it changed a bunch of things. He built church buildings. I think, isn't that when the Sabbath went from Saturday to Sunday? I think so. Right in that period.

And then he created a separation between clergy and lay people. So you go back to like 1 Peter 2, where Peter says, you know, you are a royal priesthood, a chosen generation. Like we read that and we go, oh, that's cool. But for them, that's probably the most revolutionary statement in the whole Bible. You know, because since Moses, all these people had to make this journey to Jerusalem once a year with a sacrifice and stand before the priest. You know, what was the priest? The priest was the representative of God to the people and the representative of the people to the God.

So he's like taking their sacrifices for however many thousand years, six thousand years maybe, you would know. And then all of a sudden, Jesus dies on the cross, resurrects, ascends back to heaven, and Peter writes a letter that says, oh, by the way, now you're all priests. You don't have to do the deal anymore, right? What Peter did not say is now what you need to do is everybody quit doing what you're doing and come work for the church. You know, that's why you have Colossians 3.17, whatever you do in word or deed. So, my understanding is for the first 300 years,

people understood their priesthood. And if you're a farmer, you don't stop being a farmer. You still are a farmer, but when somebody comes to buy grain, you're a priest to them. You can be a representative of God to them and them to God. You're a blacksmith, somebody comes in, you can be a representative of God to them. Well, if everybody's operating in their priesthood, you know what's going to happen? Thousands are going to come to know Christ daily. Right? Well, when, according to, you know, the Edict of Milan, when he created a separation of clergy and laypeople, from that point to today, there's been a steady decline because now we have professional Christians. Right? And really, if you think about it, the Western Church looks a whole lot like the Old Testament, where everybody comes together and we listen to one priest, and then we go home and we do nothing about it. Right? So I submit to you, this is what my wife hates

when I say this, but I think that this model is actually designed by the enemy because, you know, like, think about it, Preston. You look at persecution over the whole world of the church and what's happening in Iran and China and all this. They're being persecuted like crazy. Why is the American church not being persecuted? I submit to you it's because we're not a threat to the devil. He doesn't care. He does not care if 60,000 people are in a room singing songs and they go home and they do nothing. That is not a threat to him. So yeah, sorry. I just, it could, I mean, to, to, it, um, in as much as it gives the false impression that you are living the way you showed as a Christian, if you have, if you participate in that gathering and sing songs, but then your, your rhythm of life is not one of being a disciple

of Jesus. Um, that's almost worse because you feel like, oh, I'm doing everything right. So, it's to add to your point, right? I mean, it could be. Let me just, it could be really deceptive and that could be a win for Satan. You make a good point. And we talk about the church declining in America, but it's very much not declining in other places where there is. I mean, in China, you said Iran, there's crazy stuff going on in Iran. The house church movement there is just exploding. Iran's crazy right now. And most of it's happening through women. Yes, in a patriarchal culture. It just fires me up. It's so in Jesus' character to do that.

Like, started through women. Let me, okay, I said it earlier, I wanna make sure I honor people. So when I'm talking about coming to listen to one priest, I wanna be clear to say this. That priest, that pastor, that worship leader, I'm not downing them because they're actually operating in their priesthood. You know what I mean? I'm not badmouthing them. I'm saying the system is set up where the other 60,000 people that are coming to these churches

don't see their own priesthood to go. All right, so this is how it plays out. So I had my year off where I did not, I didn't go to church. It was actually present as the best year ever. Really? Oh my goodness, yeah. I really wish God would have just said, yeah, keep doing this.

But turns out that's not what the book says to do. So we started meeting with some people and we would, my wife, as I told you, she was studying Acts and she read Acts 2 42, those that were of the way devoted themselves to the breaking of bread, the teaching of the apostles and her prayer. And she goes, why can't this be church? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. So, it's a long story, but we started doing that with four families. We would just get together, we would eat a meal together, we would read the scripture together, and then everybody would get prayed for at the end of the night. We were like, after a couple months, like,

man, this is awesome. Why can't this be church? And then, you know, hey, what if this was actually legally a church and people could give money to it and nobody got paid so we could give all our money away? Like it says in Acts 4, there was no need among them. Like, what if we could just be a funnel to give all of our money away? And I was like, I don't even know if that's legal. Like it kind of sounds like money laundering. You know, like I want to give, I want to give you money, but I want to give it through this. So there's kind of is money laundering. But I started asking questions and I asked a buddy of mine and he said, well, you

know, this is what Francis Chan is doing in San Francisco. And, you know, I knew Francis in my past life because we did tours together, but I hadn't talked to him in years. So I just cold called him. Just, hey, Francis, blah, just, you know, everything I've just said, I just vomited on him. just everything I've just said, I just vomited on him. And he said, well, why don't you and Janet move to San Francisco? And you can just come be a part of We Are Church. And I was like, because I honestly think that that would be easier than what God's asking me to do.

Because Janet and I are really good worker bees. Like we can carry out somebody else's mission and somebody else's vision, which is a great position because then you can sit back and just criticize the leader, you know, because it's not your vision. And there's comfort in that, but we felt like God was asking us to do that here. So Francis said, well, why don't you just come out and you can stay with me and Lisa for three or four days and see what we do and ask questions. And I was like, great, that would be awesome.

When do you want us to come? And he checks his schedule and he said, can you come on December 2nd? And I was like, sure. So next day I'm booking flights and I just started laughing. Janet was like, what are you laughing at? I was like, baby, I'm slow. But you told me that Jesus told you I had to take one year off of church.

She was like, yeah. I said my last day at the stone was December 1st. I will have had 365 days off. Oh wow, wow. And I said, I feel like God's asking us to do this. So long story short, we went, came back, we started a church called King's Porch and we just do the multiplication model.

And so now we have eight churches in Austin. We're trying to raise up the priesthood, elevate the priesthood of the believer. So, sorry, Preston, is... No, it's good man. But this is where it all comes together. After we eat a meal together, at every one of our houses, every meeting starts the exact same way, and we start with what we call Jesus stories. Let's go around the room real quick and just tell them one time this week that you got to speak the name of Jesus to somebody. The first three or four months of that was the most painfully awkward thing you've ever sat through in your

entire life. And I would just let it be. We would just sit there in silence and then slowly got to start using it as a teaching moment about elevating your priesthood and whatever you do in word or deed. And honestly, the changing point was I said, hey, I don't care if your motivation this week is wrong. There's actually justification in the New Testament of people using the wrong motives to share the gospel and God's still using it. So I was just like, even if your motivation is so that this time next week is not awkward, speak the name of Jesus to somebody this week. And so, that kind of started becoming like people would say, I got to do it, I got to do it, I got to do it.

And then it became, hey, I met a single mom at the grocery store, they can't pay her bills. Can we pay her mortgage this month? And I'll say, find out how much her mortgage is. You know, okay, let's say it's 1,400 bucks. Okay, the answer is yes, but I'm not gonna give her 1,400 bucks. I'm gonna give you 1,400 bucks. Okay, the answer is yes, but I'm not going to give her $1,400. I'm going to give you $1,400. And you're going to elevate your priesthood. You're going to go sit down with her, pay her

mortgage, but I want you to look her in the eye and tell her that Jesus sees her and that he hadn't forgotten about her and that he loves her. Well, you know who's gonna come to your house next week? So Slow now now four years into it it's part of our culture where we're trying to elevate the priesthood of the believer and and people every week are having these stories where they got to speak the name of Jesus over people and I really think that I mean, that's my mess my mission right now is to just keep one-on-one elevating people's priesthood, getting them empowered to speak the name of Jesus and let Him do the rest. That's the entire game plan.

Golly, what a journey. I mean, I think a lot of people listening are like, man, that's the kind of church rhythm that I long for. I know a lot of pastors who are in big churches who, if they could snap their fingers, they would, I think, rather be in a stripped down, authentic discipleship oriented model like that. It's way messier. Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent, dude. I mean, I've been in...

There's nothing sexy about it. Oh Eco-friendly towels and they're quick dry. Yeah, you know home sense always has a lot of great towels Let me see that quick dry. Will it dry quickly enough that I won't notice when you use my towel Okay, that happened once. Hmm, maybe more than once. Anyways, these are only $13. $13? Okay. Let's get you this navy one. And for me, the soft beige one. Deal so good, everyone approves.

Only at HomeSense. Where was that three year period when you just couldn't listen to worship music? Was that before your one year off of church? Where did that fit into your story? That was actually while I was working at the Austin Stone. It was from... I quit playing for Chris in 2014. And it was those three years, 2014 to 2017, that I was working at a church, but I was dark. I was dark, man. Here's like, you know, obviously I was just at exiles. I never deconstructed Jesus. That's where I feel like maybe God had grace on me is like, I never walked away from Jesus. I still love Jesus. I'm still passionate about the word. But everything else for me was on the chopping block.

Just like, why do we do what we do? And having been a part of not only like, having been a part of like creating that culture and establishing that celebrity Christian culture, you know, it just like, I don't know, man, it was an identity crosses for me. But that was the three years of that. So here's where these two stories come together is as a songwriter, when I quit playing for Chris and left Passion, that's career suicide. You know what I mean? Because I all of a sudden

don't have this outlet for songs that I'm writing. If you play for Chris and you write a pretty good song, you got a pretty good chance that people are going to hear that song, right? Or if you're writing for a Passion conference. And I really just felt like I was so convicted that I had to leave that I was willing to just sacrifice my career. So that led into the three years. And I got asked to come preach at a conference in San Diego called the Worship School. I'm about to preach, but I'm standing out in front of house, you know, with my arms crossed just judging all the worship

That's going on, you know, like a good Christian. I got really good at being judgmental and Mack Brock was leading. Do you know who Mack Brock is? He's You need to Max one of my favorite humans. He He came from out of elevation camp songs Songs like, Oh Come to the Alt, or songs like that, like Mac wrote those. But anyway, Mac was leading. I didn't know him. I'm judging him.

I'm standing out there just like, of course, like, I'm literally like, hands are going to go up in three, two, one, bam. Like, because you can tell how the chord progressions are going. Like, this is going to. I'm just judging it. He started playing a song called Do It Again, which I had never heard. In fact, nobody had ever heard it. It was one of the first times he'd ever played it. If you haven't heard that song, Preston, you need to listen to it.

The lyrics come up on the screen and it says, walking around these walls, I thought that by now they'd fall, but you've never failed me yet. Waiting for change to come, believing you're still the one, but you've never failed me yet. The Course says, your promise still stands, great is your faithfulness, great is your faithfulness. I'm here in your hands, great is your faithfulness, great is your faithfulness. Anyway, something in my spirit, well, something in my spirit, the Holy Spirit inside of me said, hey, it'd probably be good if you dialed into what this song is saying.

So I'm not singing, I'm just reading the lyrics. And I had this moment like where it says that the scales fell off of Paul's eyes. I felt like scales fell off of me. And the bridge comes and it's got this big, crunchy guitar and the lyric says, "'I've seen you move the mountains and I believe I'll see you move them again.'" Bro, I wanted to take my shirt off and like spin it around my head and run around.

Like I literally in that song, I was set free. Wow. 100% set free. So I felt like the Holy Spirit was telling me like, it's not all BS. Yes, there's lights. Yes, there's all the things, but I still use it. And I mean, poor Mac, that was my first time meeting him that night. And I felt like I was laying on a psychiatrist

couch. I just talked, I was just talking. He was helping me process all that. He's probably one of my close friends today. But at that point, I was like, okay, it's not all BS. God still uses it. So, these two parallel lines are going with music and with this church, right? And we're trying to get people to elevate their priesthood and speak the name of Jesus. So I was with a buddy of mine named Dustin Smith at this songwriting thing in Montana. And we'd had lots of conversations about this. And so we wrote a song called I Speak Jesus. And like literally, I wanted to give people on my back porch a song to sing to motivate them to speak the name of Jesus during the week. So, Dustin recorded it, we recorded it, we'd been singing it for a year, and somebody sent me a

YouTube link of this girl that I had never met named Charity Gale. And she has literally, I think, 100 million views on YouTube of her singing, I speak Jesus. And she just like blew that song up and it's now it's like doing really good in CCLI. It's in the top 10 on CCLI right now. And I feel like what God taught me through the whole thing is that I was putting all of my faith in man. Like I'm not attached to Chris Tomlin anymore. I'm not attached to passion. I won't ever have songs do anything. And God is like, hey, turns out the reason those songs did something is because I liked them. You know what I mean? And so now, I guess as a dog returns to its vomit, now I'm like, I'm right back into writing

songs again, but I have a totally different perspective. I just want to write songs that make Jesus happy, you know? And even if we write it and it makes him happy in the room while we're writing it and nobody else ever hears it, then that's good enough for me. So I think that's where it's switched for me. So you still write music now. And then what do you do when you write a song? I just have no clue I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. You know, it's like, I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. You know, it's like, I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf.

I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. I'm like, I'm going to Nashville because I got to polish up that golden calf. It's like, it's this bittersweet thing. I mean, Nashville is where it all happens and all my friends are there. So yeah, that's, it's just kind of like you schedule your podcast. I have r that are scheduled every day of 10 to two, two to six. Okay. Writing songs with people.

When you're in Nashville, do you ever go to a Smoker's Abbey in East Nashville? You know what that is? I don't. Oh dude, you got to go to, but it sounds like I may need to East Nashville. Um, the owner is, I'm not going to be a crappy pastor. But he has like a little chapel he built with stained glass windows in the back of the smoke shop. Yeah, people do Bible studies in there. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. My buddy Jay Newman hangs out there all the time. That's exactly what I'm talking about. That dude is doing it. He's elevating his priesthood. He's going into the world, right? The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus didn't come set up this camp and

say, everybody come to me. He went into the world. So, I mean, that's why I think that's why Colossians 3.17, if you're passionate about a cigar shop, then do that and be a priest. If you're a graphic designer, do that and be a priest. I think if we can get back to that mentality, we can see revival in the US, which seems hopeless. All the deconstruction conversations you're in, and all the modern books talk about millennials walking away from the church in droves, right? Not all of them are walking away from Jesus. So I feel like what we're doing with Multiplyin' House Churches really isn't even for us. I feel like I want to create a landing spot for these younger people to find community when they pull the ripcord.

Do you get a lot of de-churched type people in your house churches? We do. Yeah, the house church also attracts a lot of bitter people. So you kind of have to work through that a little bit. I know it does. And that can be challenging. Usually they can be very opinionated. I mean, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a,

it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's And when you don't do it the certain way they want it, then he back to square one or like, Oh, what am I doing? You know, I was part of a, I made a very short lived house church. We met in a barn for six months. And I realized that, yeah, the same, the same stuff that pastors go through in the traditional church, you go through a lot of the same stuff in the house church as well. People are people for sure do.

With no payoff. With no pay. I'll tell you another thing though, Preston, that was not one of our intents, but it's just an amazing thing that we've seen. All of our houses are different. They all have different demographics depending on the neighborhood they're in. In my house, the church that meets in my house, half of our people are Catholic. No way. And it's just, it's interesting. One family, she is from Columbia and he's from Panama.

and he's from Panama. They have two kids and just raised like in the Hispanic Catholic Church. They show up at my house through somebody's, I don't know how they got there. They ended up getting saved on my back porch and I baptized the husband and the wife in our pool. It's just unbelievable. But we were talking afterwards. And I was like, wait, how'd you end up at my church? And he kind of told me through this person, this person. I said, oh, this is interesting. He said, my wife told me that she just wanted to feel something when she went to church. She was tired of going to church and not feeling anything. So that's kind of what started their journey. So they ended up at my house and I said, well, let me ask you this, would you have ever gone to the Austin Stone?

And he goes, no, man. He goes, that's a Baptist church. And I said, well, what would you do if I told you that we were a part of starting the Austin Stone?" And he kind of pushed back, he goes, You're Baptist? And I was like, actually, no, I just like trying to follow Jesus. He said this, he goes, I would never set foot in a Baptist church, but I'll come to your house. And I thought, oh, okay, it's all coming together. You know, the high priestly prayer, the last thing Jesus prayed was, Father, make them one as we are one. And that is where the enemy has just gone nope and come in. And there's more division in Christianity than there is in any other

religion. You know, we have different labels and different silos and all this stuff. And one of the things that I, it's a positive side effect that I was not expecting is when you come back to the house, there's no labels. It's just like, we're all reading the same book, trying to do what it says, trying to elvish people's priesthood, get them to talk about Jesus. The end. So good, man. Oh, man. What a journey, dude. Oh, man.

I want you to, we're going to close here in a second, but can you speak to somebody or pastor somebody listening right now that might be experiencing some level of burnout, whether it's pastoral ministry, whether it's the worship scene, maybe the worship leader, you know. They're just like, kind of that space where you said, like, I don't, I love Jesus. I just, I'm not sure the church is getting Jesus right. They're in that space where you, you know, that you know so well. How do you, how do you pastor somebody through that? In a sense, almost like if you can go back in time to that three-year period, maybe at the beginning of that three-year period when you were just,

ah, just not feeling it anymore. Like, how do you pastor somebody through that? That's a good question. The, I think I would say this, two things. Jesus says, come follow me because my burden is easy and my yoke is light. And the gospel is called the good news. Neither one of those things cause burnout, ever. The gospel does not cause burnout. Jesus' yoke does not cause burnout. If you're being burned out, it's because of the system that you're in. A system will burn you out fast, but the gospel doesn't. And that's where people, you know, this whole deconstruction thing and why it's happening with pastors, you know, we've seen pastors walk away. It's because they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

They're not separating the two. I would say take inventory and separate the two. Like, for me, like I just told you, it took me a year. It took me a year to untangle all the things and just come back to Jesus. What does He say? How does He love people? How does He engage with people? What does he say? How does he love people? How does he engage with people? Discipline people doesn't cause burnout. It's heavy, but it doesn't cause burnout. Entering into their mess is, you know, sometimes heartbreaking, but it doesn't cause burnout. It's actually life-giving when you're gospeling somebody and seeing the gospel take root in their life. It's actually life-giving when you're gospeling somebody and seeing the gospel take root in their life. It's actually life-giving to you. So I think that would be the number one thing is just to take inventory and actually identify

what's causing the burnout instead of just walking away from all of it. That's what the enemy wants you to do. The enemy wants you to lump it all together and walk away from all of it. Yeah, that's good. That's what the enemy wants you to do. The enemy wants you to lump it all together and walk away from all of it. Or, you know, church hurt. He wants you, you got hurt at church, instead of you being able to identify that person who did that thing to hurt you,

you say, I got hurt from the church and I'll walk away from it. That's the enemy, you know? It's so, I always tell my people like like every week there's an enemy behind the enemy. Like even when you're looking at that person, there's an enemy behind the enemy. You know, you can do that across the board. You can do that at what's happening in Gaza right now. There's an enemy behind the enemy. That's good, man. I'm excited to hang out with you in Austin.

Well, when am I coming down there? I think September got a, doing a conference. I don't know what church is hosting. It might be the Austin stuff. No, it's not doing it at life. You're doing it at life. Austin life. Austin. Okay. Yeah. Doing a conference, two day conference on sexuality down there. People are interested. I think center for faith.com as the info there. But yeah, Jesse, I'm excited to grab some barbecue with you. I think center for faith.com as info there. But yeah, Jesse, I'm excited to grab some barbecue with you. I've been texting with Greg Coles about it. Oh yeah. Like I'm excited to hang out with him. That dude was, he's man, he's something else. I loved him. He's something else, dude. I'm going to hang out with him today. Actually,

we're supposed to grab lunch before I head on vacation tomorrow. So yeah, he's, we need more humans like him in the world. Tell you what. Well, bro, thanks so much for being on theology in a raw. And, uh, I'm sure we'll I can't believe it happened. It wasn't, it wasn't too bad. My prayer going into this president, like even this morning, I'm just praying. I'm just like, you know, what did the acts four 13 when it says, and seeing the boldness of Peter and John, they recognized that they were uneducated, common men, but saw that they had, or, and, but they recognized that they had been with Jesus. I was like, man, God, if anything can come out of this, I know all your guests that you have on here are all PhDs. I'm just

a normal dude. That's not true, though. But I love Jesus and I love the Word, so I hope that that's what comes through when people listen. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.