Theology in the Raw - Gender Dysphoria, Church Hurt, and Enduring Hope in Jesus: Remington Rathjen

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Remington Rathjen is my friend. Remi experiences gender dysphoria, same sex attraction, and a passion for Jesus Christ. Remi shares his story of church hurt, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, and many other things that could push a person far away from Jesus, but has only driven Remi closer to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's finally here, folks. After three and a half years of research and writing, my new book from Genesis to Junia is available. Oh my word. As a subtitle suggests, this book represents my honest search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. I comb through all the major passages that deal with the question of women in leadership. I evaluate the strongest arguments on all sides of the debate, and I do my best to let the text determine what we should believe about this important topic. From Genesis to Junie is now available wherever books are sold. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rob. My guest today is Remington Rothgen, or Remy. Remi is my friend. Remi experiences gender dysphoria, same-sex attraction,

and also experiences a massive passion for Jesus Christ. And Remi shares his story of church hurt, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, and many other things. that could push a person far away from Jesus, but has only driven Remy closer to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so I'm so excited for you to listen to this painful, but also very hopeful story from my friend Remy Rothsched. We haven't seen each other since the conference. We chat on the phone a few times.

And I, there's lots of good speakers at the conference. and a lot of powerful speakers, powerful stories. There was something particular about your story that just, I don't know, I was just feeling the room looking around, and I think people were pretty stunned in a good way. In most of all, I just, I don't know, I sense that people were pushed closer to Jesus when you talked. It's hard to describe.

You know, it's just like it was just like in the air. So I want to For those who didn't Well even for those who did Because you only had like 10 15 minutes Apologize for the short time We had a lot of speakers to get through I went over too so I feel better

They all do That's what I give people like 15 minutes or whatever to speak Like that's too short I'm like I don't say this But I'm like well you're gonna go over Like every other speakers So that's why I give you 15 minutes

So not 25 I want to hear your Let's go back to I want to go back to wherever you want to start in your story when you had a faith commitment in Jesus and also experienced gender dysphoria. I can't remember. You've told me this before. I can't remember which one came first.

But how did those two parts of your life intersect? Yeah. Well, I'm so honored to be here. and also have spoken at your conference. So for me, you made the same which one comes first. I believe I've experienced it for you as long as I can remember. I didn't have the words for it growing up until I became an adult that this was my experience. But I look back at all these memories and I believe it's something that's always been there.

Yeah, I encountered Jesus in 2009. at a Christian camp. I never grew up in the church. I was confirmed in middle school. And then we at this one specific church and we never went back as a family. I didn't grow up like going to church or anything like that. I was saved through a parish church organization where I encountered love and I encountered Christ. And at a pretty radical conversion. Yeah, so that's how I that's how I met him. Okay. Yeah. 2009. So you've always experienced, so when did those two parts of your life create any kind of tension, if you know what I mean? Like, did you ever, like when you first began a Christian, did you ever feel like your gender dysphoria,

you know, like was getting in a way of your faith, or maybe not even in the way of your faith, but presenting a problem for other people in the church. Yeah, that's a really great question. That might take us the rest of the time right there, but yeah, you can take it in a direction you want, yeah. Yeah, I'll try to be succinct. I, oh, that's such a good question. For me, in my personal relationship with Christ,

in my encounter of him, I didn't even understand the fact that I was queer or same-sex attracted or experienced gender dysphoria at that time. That was, I believe, going into my freshman year of high school. So there was still so much suppression and just pain that I was going through things that I couldn't face in myself. So I didn't even like, even in myself acknowledged. I mean, it's subconsciously like I knew it was there, but I just couldn't even face it. And Christ encountered me. And for me, I almost have, I've talked to, I know a lot, I have the blessing and the

privilege to know a lot of queer people inside and outside of faith in Christ. And I, out of all of them that I know and those who have given me the blessing to hear their story, There's not one, honestly, and I know many. There's not one that doesn't have some form of church abuse or church hurt or spiritual, you know, trauma in that sense. So I've heard the story over and over and over of a lot of people going into the closet when they come to faith. And for me, it's actually the opposite. It is when I encountered Jesus, I hadn't even wrestled with these things myself. and encountering the creator who loves me.

And I experienced that unconditional love. I realized, like, he knew this. He knew these things of me, and he loves me, and he saved me. And that gave me the strength and the boldness and the motivation to come flying out of that sucker, the closet, and giving me the strength to endure the bigotry. but yeah, it gave me the strength to come out. Did you experience bigotry from the church, from Christians? And what did that look like?

Yeah. So we can start that journey. So like I said, I didn't grow up in the church. I was saved in a paratrochurch organization. And the only real experience in church that I had was in this like parachurch organization. So I go to college in 2012 and I became a part of this organization called Crew. And I was in crew. And one thing that they were strong encouraging in my spiritual growth was to attend like a church every Sunday to get connected to a local body.

So I was living in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the time. And I got involved in this non-denominational evangelical church. It was a multi-site church, kind of megachurch. and I reset at the conference I actually realized today that I got a detail wrong so I'm going to try to correct that right now. I hadn't been going to that church for nine and a half years. I had been going for eight and I got the day wrong. But I had been going to that church for eight years and I there's so much. I had been on leadership in that church.

I had been on the missions team. And up until what had happened to me, I had led a full year of small groups in my home and was deeply connected to this community and to these people and to this church. Sorry, I'm trying not to get emotion. It's always hard to talk about it. That's fine, yeah.

I went there. and now it's fast forward to 2020. And there's so many things happening in the world. There's this thing called COVID-19. And then George Floyd was killed. And there were so many choices that my church had made that I was really conflicted with. I didn't understand like why the church was making the choices that they were. And I was seeking to understand.

And for those who know me, they know. I'm not just going to disappear. I'm going to have the conversation, and I want to know, like, your heart, what's going on. So I stepped down from all forms of leadership that I was on, because I was thinking about leaving the church, but I wasn't going to leave without having these conversations, but I also didn't want to be unfair to the church.

So I stepped down from all this on my own. And I started having conversations with this. campus pastor of the location that I was going to. Real quick, did they, up until this point, just to pause your story, did you like identify as trans? Did you say you struggled with gender dysphoria? Like this side of your life, was this made known? And they had accepted you up to this point? Or? Yeah, I, um, that's a good question. I kind of joke about it. Um, I, to me, nobody knows my story unless it comes out of my mouth to them, but I'm also not a fool. I know that most people,

when they see me or interact with me, they can sense through some queerness going on. So I imagine that a lot of people assumed, but there were, there were select few people that I was out to within the church that I trusted and shared my story with. You just relieve the stress of every straight person listening. Like we're always scared like to be said to we assume or not or whatever. Okay, good, good, good. Yeah, I like to air on the side of never assume until you hear it. Because I have met the most masculine and feminine people that you would think are one thing or another and they're not.

So I love to never assume. But yeah, so I had been out to select few people that I trusted within the church. And just sorry, for clarity, too, you're you're embracing a traditional theology of all these things, too. Because some people listening, I mean, you're at a church to hold through traditional marriage and you're not like out sleeping around with the people of the same sex or whatever. Like that's, you're following Jesus and what a traditional church says that looks like at this point, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's part of the extreme pain of the situation is.

For all those that I had shared with in leadership at this church, I was so clear with what I believed and what I was pursuing. And there was nothing at that time that I believed in that disagreed with any teachings of that church or of the historical sexual ethic. and it revealed to me that for many queer people in church structures, it doesn't matter if you're, you know, to use the colloquial term, side A, side B, X, Y, if you are a queer person in church or a same sex attracted, person who experiences genera dysphoria in the church, there is such an ingrained bigotry that it doesn't matter what you're pursuing.

And when I explain more, people can come to their conclusions of why I feel that way. But I just experienced such a devastation, even though there was nothing that I was pursuing that they would disagree with. Wow. Wow. All right, so take us back to that time

when you were serving on leadership, wondering if you should step down. Yeah. Yeah. So I stepped down on my own before having these conversations, and then I started having these conversations. And yeah, there was so many choices that the church was making that I just wanted to know the why. So I start having these conversations with this campus pastor. And over, I believe it was about a three-month span, I think we had close to about six meetings.

And the first five, and now he had been new to this position. within like, you know, three, four months, I believe, if I had to guess, of the conversations that we were having. So he was new to this position. But yeah, so I, the first five meetings were all just me asking the why. Of like, why are we making this choice? And please, I'm simply, I'm not trying to critique or judge. I'm just seeking to understand. Like, why are we making this choice?

Where are we making this choice? And he was answering most of them. So then in the end of the fifth meeting, I had surface level, like, come out to him and shared with him my experience of gender dysphoria and my same-sex attraction. And I clearly articulated to him like what I believe and what I'm pursuing. And there was a fallout with a friend that had been happening at that time. And I asked him if he would be willing to reach out to this friend as a mediator to set up like a mediated conversation.

So I had shared those things I asked for the mediation. And then I also had said part of the reason why I am sharing the seat with you and coming out to you is because for the eight years that I have been here, I have been so alone. I have been crippling loneliness, experiencing that. And I feel like this is a marriage-making factory. And I'm not sure if there is a place at this church for single, celibate, widowed, divorced, like people. because it feels like the entire structure culture is built around marriage,

and that's something I simply can never fit into. So I had shared that. Then I said, this is the why, right? Because I have felt so alone. So he says yes, he will reach out to the mutual friend and try to set up the mediated conversation. So about a month goes by, and I don't hear anything. So I reached back out.

I said, hey, have you heard anything from this friend? And he says no. And he positions to me, would you like to, usually this would happen between both of you, but since this person has not responded, would you like to move forward with a mediated conversation? Sorry, not a mediated conversation. A healing council meeting is how he positioned it to me, a healing council meeting. And I'm like, absolutely. Who wouldn't whine?

That sounds suspicious to me. I appreciate your optimism, but go ahead. Yeah, I was very optimistic at that time. And I'm like, oh, great. Like, who wouldn't want? Like, yes, honey, I would love to have a healing council meeting. So we schedule it and we meet up. And the moment I show up at the doorstep of the church and he's opening, like, holding the door up and it's intense and I can feel the energy.

And I'm like, what's going on? Why is it so intense? and he immediately gets to brass tax and he was like, so here's what's going on and he starts telling, and keep in mind right, we had just met within the last couple months. He knows virtually nothing outside of these, you know, six now conversations about me. And he goes on to accuse me of things that he doesn't know my heart,

he doesn't know what I wanted, and accuse me of things that he thinks that I was wanting or desiring or pursuing in this friendship with, this friend, he said that he thinks that I wanted to be married to this person, like, just completely starts throwing these accusations out against me and completely unfair and unjust. So I paused him and I'm like, this, I'm a direct person. And I was like, this is not right. This conversation is not going well. Like, how can you make these claims? And he says, since we've been having our conversations, I have sought the council of a senior pastor,

and it has come to our conclusion that we have decided that you are banned from any form of leadership in this church due to concerns about your theology and lifestyle choices and the way in which you would lead people if you were in a form of leadership. Did you specify what those were? Yeah. So he says that. And I just kind of sit in science. It felt like hours, but it was probably like 10 seconds.

And I said to him, Pastor Mike, what do you? We've had this conversation, this last, you know, time we met up. I had already been in leadership that I stepped down from on my own for years. Like, and I asked him, what theology and what life. Are You Concerned about? I'm celibate. And

His answer, he kind of like skirted around it. I think I asked him like two or three times, like, please help me. I'm just seeking to understand. Help me. What theology and lifestyle are you concerned about? And he one word answered me homosexuality. And I said,

What do you mean? I'm celibate. And there was no answer. So I told him this is devastating, this is deeply hurtful. And he goes on to say that he, since we've been meeting up, he has been praying for me, and honestly he is praying for my deliverance. And I said, Pastor, with all due respect, I've prayed that prayer more than you ever will. and I said, I no longer pray that prayer, but instead I pray, Lord, may your will be done,

and please grant me the strength to endure it, whatever it may be. And I don't think he was expecting that answer. So I am devastated in this conversation, and I asked him, just point blank, is there a place for me? Well, two things, two questions I asked him. said, is there hope for me as a celibate person in this church? And his answer was, I'm not sure. And then I asked him, is there a place for me in this church?

And he said no. Oh, my gosh. So I stand up and I said this conversation is over. This was really awful. And as we're walking towards the door, he says, the fakesest thing to me I've ever heard in my life. He said, I just want you to know that we love you here at this church and we want to serve you. What?

And I looked this man in eyes and I said, how? And is that true? And he said, we love you. And I said, I've loved this church too. And I walked out and that was the last time that I spoke to him in person. And I messaged him the next day saying that you yourself even said there is no place for me here, so I will be leaving this church. But that same day of that conversation, I reached out to that senior pastor because I had had him connected on social media and I reached out to the senior pastor. And I just said, hey, your name was brought up in this conversation.

I'm just seeking to understand what was talked about. I'm very confused with things that I'm being accused of. Can you help me? And he responded a couple days later, and his initial message to me was like a piece, peace be with you message. And I wouldn't let him have it. So I kept asking him probably like three or four times, like, can you help me understand? Can you help me understand what is my lifestyle?

What is my, you know, choices, like can you that you have problems with? Can you help me understand? And he one word answered me as well and just finally said homosexuality. And I said, thank you. Can you help me understand what you mean when you say that? Now this is going to be a little tricky to explain this. So this was in 2020 when I'm having these conversations. Close to five years prior was one of that at that time was one of the last times that I had spoken to the senior pastor in person.

like in depth. We had seen each other in passing like, hello, hello, and then keep going like throughout the years. But in depth, it had been about close to five years at that time since we had talked like in depth. And trigger warning for people that may be sensitive to this, I had been sexually assaulted on the street at the time. And I was reeling. And I went to this pastor for help and for guidance and for healing. So that is what had happened. And I tried my best at that time to articulate that to this, like, pastor without causing myself more harm. So, now fast forward, five years later in 2020, he brought up this conversation in our correspondence and said that I had told him that I am in a same-sex romantic relationship

and that this person's on the down low, and I haven't told anybody in the church. This is what he accused me of. And I said, I've never said this to you. These words have never come out of my mouth. Can we get lunch? Can we get coffee and talk about this? Like, I don't know how you've gotten this mixed up

if this is somebody else's story, or if you're just remembering incorrectly, like, please, I've never said these words to you. And his final words are burned into my seat. psyche. These are them exactly. He said, we are no longer debating about what was discussed, and I am respectfully removing myself from this conversation. Golly. This is a church you've been at eight years. Eight years. Eight years. And it's a, I don't, I don't want the name of it. Is it like a non-denominable, like, is it, it, it's not a,

it's a non-denominational evangelical. Like, hyper-conservative, rightly. leaning, moderate? I mean, how would you describe just the theological, just so people could... Yeah, I think they try to be moderate, but there is right-leaning, um, yeah, inclinations out, for sure. It's not Westboro Baptist. It's not some hyper-fundamentalist, you know, KJV only churches. God bless them, but just, I'm just so people get an idea of, yeah. Yeah, it very much to me was average, slightly conservative, run-of-the-mill evangelical, non-denominational church. It's just, I mean, yeah, I'll just, based on what you're saying, it is shocking that they would just use a term homosexuality, just so unthoughtfully does.

It's just a broad, like, broad label to slap on somebody who's living a life of celibacy of submission to King Jesus. and just, yeah, but homosexual. I might have experienced that in churches like 15 years ago, you know, that have never thought through the conversation or kind of maybe far, like, right? And they just, ah, homosexuality, to get out of here, you know? But like, I'm in a lot of churches, like the one you describe.

And by now, like, it's boring almost because I don't need to explain these things. Like, yeah, of course. Like, I just can't slap that label. So it's, yeah, it's shocking to hear that level of, painful unthoughtfulness if I can say that. Yeah, it's absolutely a cruelty. Okay, so.

One word answers. How did this experience affect your relationship with Jesus? Yeah. Yeah, if I could explain, because I'm not even, there's multiple church abuse, spiritual abuse situations I've been a part of. So I'm not even done with this church. So if I could finish this. Okay, sorry.

No, that's a term. Please, please go and go on. Very sad. That's unfortunate. Because that is a beautiful question, and I absolutely want to answer it. But I feel like I have to give the whole context before I do. So, yeah, I then went to the lead pastor whose contact I also had. I was really connected in this church.

And I called him that day of that conversation with the second pastor. And I left a voicemail. and I said, I am spiraling out of control. I'm being accused of things that are untrue. I'm being slandered by a pastor. I don't know what to do. I need help. Can you please call me back?

And he never did. And then I had obviously stepped away from the church. So a couple months had gone by and friends of mine had reached out to me and they had said what's going on. And I started having conversations with them individually. And they had asked me if I would. like with my consent, could they go and confront these pastors? So I said yes.

And they go to the campus pastor and they confront him. And he to them confesses that he did not handle this well. But I've never heard anything from him to this day. Then they go to the senior pastor and he doubles down and tells them that I am lying and deceiving them. And that this is what I told him. And these friends had known me for like 10 years at that point. And then they reached out to the lead pastor and he says he just changed his number. He never got my voicemail.

So he asked them for my number. They asked me. I say yes. They give it to him. So we scheduled a meeting the first week of January 2021. And I wanted both of these friends to come with as witnesses in the room. And he agreed. One of them got COVID unfortunately.

So there was one witness that could be there. But I'm thankful for that friend. And so it's me, the witness, and the lead pastor. And he says, like, I just want you to have the floor. I want you to share what's going on. And I started, I said, Pastor, please hear me. I am here to try to save someone's life. I said, my story has been violated throughout this experience.

Like, I had never shared my story with these specific pastors. And other than the first one, and it's just being like pastoral. and then I'm being slandered. Like it was such a violating experience. So I am like telling him that out of the mouth of pastors, I heard the voice of Satan tell me that there is no place for me and that there is no hope for me. And I said, my fear is that there is someone like me in this congregation

who does not know Jesus, the way that I do. Who's not going to make it if they are abused in this way? And I said, please hear me. I'm here to try to save the life. And he gave me this like, oh yes, I'm listening, I'm listening, you know, that kind of stuff. And I had asked him very direct questions, and I'm kind of getting the run around. And then he, I just expressed like the hurt of this. And I said, you know, pastor, here's this witness. Witness, have you ever seen me in this relationship that I'm being accused of? Witness says no.

And I said, pastor, here's my witness. Like, this is not true. I'm being slandered. Like, I tried to process and think through this and present myself well to this pastor because this isn't true. So this lead pastor gives me an invite to return to the church with the caveat that I attend a different location for the sake of unity. What?

Because these pastors had offices at the location that I was attending. So for the sake of unity, he gave an invite to return with that caveat to attend a different location. And my answer to him was, why do I have to attend a different location? I've done nothing wrong. And also, pastor, how do you expect me to return to a church where I am actively being slandered by a senior pastor who is unrepentant? How do you expect me to return to this church and flourish? And he was like, I understand.

So he said these words, like, I don't do this often, but on behalf of the church, we really hurt you and we sinned against you. and I apologize and I'm sorry. And in the moment, that meant a lot. But there's more to that story. And I said, thank you. And after everything that he had said, I will not be returning to this church. And I said, I pray that you hear me,

and I pray that something is done about this. And he had led me to believe that something would be. So I said, I love you. God bless you. And I gave him a hug. And I walked out of, said goodbye. And I walked out of his office. and it's the last time I entered that church.

So I kind of just cry at the doorstep with my friend and leave. So I didn't find this out until weeks later, but the witness shared this with me and I trust him deeply and I love him very much. He had shared with me weeks later and he had so much pain and hurt from this as well. It took him a while to tell me that lead pastor wanted to meet with the witness the day after this conversation all three of us had. And they get together and he asked the witness, what do you want?

And the witness said I want a written apology from senior pastor to Remy, and I want an investigation done into this so that this doesn't happen again. And the very next day, after looking me in the face and lying to me and saying to me that there would be something done, he sent to this witness that there will be no investigation,

there will be no apology. So the witness is unhappy about this. And the Lee Pastor will not let it go. So he meets up again with the witness and like a week later after that. And he does not directly, but he covertly in that conversation threatens the witness. And covertly threatens them that, well, the words that were shared with me was that this lead pastor said that what I did was worse than sin. And when this friend, this dear beloved friend, asked, like, what did Remy do that's worse than sin? Does that make Remy worse than the devil?

Like, what is worse than sin? And how can this be so? The lead pastor said that because I shared with other people what had been said to me by these pastors, I destroyed any form of reconciliation. And then this lead pastor covertly threatened the witness. and essentially said that if they ever share it with others' conversations they've had, their relationship is over. So that was the first church. And there's, yeah, I've been trying to make it work in churches.

So the year is, this is 2021. So you are kicked out of a church you've been out for eight years for living in a celibate life. So your faith in Jesus, you know, I know a lot of people that have been through church hurt, spiritual abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, all the above in a church context. And it can damage, sever, destroy their faith sometimes in Jesus. Sometimes not. What was your, how did you, what was your response to Jesus like after this episode?

Yeah. I encountered the Savior in 2009. I met him and I was changed forever. And he has never left me. And somehow, some way in my spirit and my heart, I've known that. He has never left me. but I spiraled really bad after that. And I, this is another trigger warning, I was deeply, deeply suicidal for about two years.

Because, like I said, from the mouth of pastors, I heard the voice of Satan. And I had, like, forsaken so much and tried to, like, fit. and make this work. And at this church that I deeply love and trusted and had given so much of myself to this happen. And I just despaired almost beyond help. But the Lord who is love never let me go. And I, just so many things.

I didn't go to church for about a year. And for me, like I said, that church that this happened was my first ever home church, ever in my life that I'd been consistently going to and connecting to community. So this was devastating. And it also, like, it affected other relationships and friendships of mine who no longer spoke to me because of this because I was a liability. And so I, yeah, spiral very deeply. And for me at the time, queer bars, gay bars became my church. Because it was a place where I could truly just be and just rest and not have to worry about judgment, outcasting, marginalization, scapegoating. I could just be and I could just exist.

And, yeah, so for about a year, I did not go to church. Is that when we met? We met during that year, right? Around. You and I met in the middle of the abuse. Like about the time of the senior pastors when you met. It was fresh. It was really fresh.

Yeah, I was like in the midst of it, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so then I, year goes by. And then I start, there was this pastor of that church who had been let go in a very unfortunate and shady way. And this, nothing that this pastor did, what the leadership of the former church did. It was very, very shady.

So this pastor is a faithful and beloved friend and walked through me, walked through this situation with me faithfully, and is a huge part of the reason why I'm still alive. So this, Pastor Friend had started a different church, and I went to that church after a year because he was the only pastor in the world that I trusted. And so I'd go to that church for about a year, and then I feel safe. And I said, okay, maybe I can start stepping into leadership again. And the way that I thought about serving the church was through the worship team.

So I was like, maybe this is how I can do it. So I scheduled this meeting with the worship pastor who is not my friend that had brought me to this church, is a different pastor. And I had scheduled this meeting with this worship pastor like three weeks, almost a month ahead of time. And unfortunately, I think it was about three or four days before the meeting that was scheduled with this pastor. I was sexually assaulted again at a bar. And I was a reeling. I was spiraling and it was really bad. And then this meeting comes up days later. So we're talking and this pastor is doing the pastor thing. How are you? How are you really? And I said, would you like to know, like honestly? And he said, yes. And I said, to know Remy is to know a lot of pain. He said, I want to hear. So I had shared with him. what happened a couple days prior, and then I stopped. And there was like a 10 second pause, and he says immediately the first words out of his mouth were,

well, maybe you shouldn't have been there. And the thing that was just so painful to me was he does not understand what there was to me. It was one of the only safe places I had felt in the world. And that happened. and so his first words to me were maybe you shouldn't have been there. So I literally, I couldn't believe it. I look at him in shock and then I try to move forward quickly because I didn't know what to do.

And I started explaining to him the reason why I'm having this conversation with him and what it is and what it's take for me to serve a church again. I wanted him to know at the gecko who I am. because I don't want to try to church for another eight years and then this happened. So I said, this is why I'm telling you this, because I need you to understand, like, what it is for me to possibly step into this again. So I start telling him the story, and I get to the middle of with the senior pastor. And he cuts me off, and he says, sometimes Remy in our pain and trauma, we can overshare, and it's appropriate. And I, sorry, it's inappropriate.

It's inappropriate. Yeah, it's inappropriate. And I said, oh, so you don't want to hear the rest of my story? And he said, no. So the conversation was just over. And we awkwardly drove back to the church because we went to this restaurant. We drove back to the church together. And then he wants to, like, hear my voice and that kind of stuff. And I said, no, thank you. I'll reach out if I want to move forward with this in the future. And that was it. And that was it. And it just shattered me and it broke me again. And this was not my pastor friend, but this was a pastor in this church. So I don't go to church for months and then eventually stop going on an offer a bit and then eventually stop. So for me, I have always wanted to tell people about Jesus. And there's this word in Christian circles called missionary. And I have always felt like a calling to this. Like, I just want to tell the world about this Savior who I met, who is real, who saved me, and who I love.

I just want you to know him. I just want you to experience him the way I have. So I had not gone, you know, in the timeline, I had not been going to church about for a year at this point. And I just felt like I was rotting and wasting time. So I, there was this Bible school in the near area. And I had naively been like, I need to go. I need to do this.

Like I need to, I need to suck it up and keep. making it work and keep going and not give up and I need to, you know, like, I need to pursue this. And I do, and I apply to this school that you get an associate's degree in biblical studies and it has a focus on missions and reaching unreached people groups. And I'm like, I want to do this. This is what I want to do. So I apply and in the application of the school, there is a little checkmark yes, no, and it asked the questions, do you experience or have you ever experienced same sex attraction? And I go, oh, Lord, please help. They have you, wait, they have to check off that box? That was in the application to the school. What do you think about that?

Awful. So, and I had shared that feedback, but I, um, I. So you don't have to lie, if you, if you haven't publicly told anybody you're in the closet, you have to lie. You have to lie. or out yourself on the forum. Yes. Wow, that's wild. What was your question? That's wild. Sorry, I've never heard that before.

Yep. So in the application that was there. So I had that confrontation that you just acknowledged of, am I going to start this foundation on a lie or am I going to tell the truth? And I decided, for those who know Remy, Remy's going to tell the truth. So I told the truth and I checked yes. And I full well knowing that there's going to be a conversation before they like accept me or not. Yeah.

Did a big siren go off? Yeah. Doors close. Yeah. We got them. Yep. Sorry. I'm trying to like make light of a terrible situation.

Sorry. Yeah. No, it felt kind of like that. So yeah. I check yes and application and like a month later, I get this call from the Dean of Admissions. And I can tell he's super nervous, like, you know, kind of like beating around the bus. So what's your story? Who are you? And I just said like, sir, I know what this is about. Let me put you at ease. And I very clearly explained to him what I experienced. And I explained to him what I believe.

And I said, I also experienced something that you didn't ask about, which is gender dysphoria. And I explained that to him. So he goes, oh, thank you. And it's like he took a deep breath. And, you know, very clearly lay this out for him of what I believe in who I am wanting to come to this school. So he says to me, and I actually do respect this because he told me it right away. And I didn't like find something out behind those doors later.

He said that I personally don't agree with this. but there is a policy on the books for this school. And if you want to be a missionary with this school, there's a policy that if you have ever been in a same-sex long-term relationship, you are banned from being a missionary with this school. And he said, I would love to hear what you think about that. And I just...

Pre-Christ or post-Christ? Or they didn't specify? Post-Christ. Like, you can know him. You can know him, and it doesn't matter. Okay. If you've ever been in a same-sex long-term relationship, you're banned. Okay.

So he said, I would love to hear your opinion. And my heart just shattered again. And I said, with all due respect, I absolutely hate this. And I said, this is bigoted. and I said we don't do this for any other area of struggle and I said where is the gospel where is Christ in this policy that because of someone's past and their history

they are banned doesn't not even caring where they are now and I said some of the most on fire passionate lovers of Jesus that I have ever met who are prophetic and profound are people where this is part of their past. And I said, I don't care about your policy. I see faces of people that I love, and they now have a scarlet letter on their forehead

that they are banned from wanting to join this ministry because of their past. And I said, I think this is bigoted and cruel and wrong. And he goes, oh, thank you. and he's like, use the word bigoted. And I said, yes, this is bigotry. Because they wouldn't, would they have said the same for somebody in an opposite sex relationship with, say, a non-believer or a sex, it was a sexual relationship that they ended and repented of and moved on? Like, that, that's totally fine. Like, from what I'm aware of, there's no policy like that for straight people.

Well, I used to be a raging racist for several years and now I repented from it or I haven't. Give it a dime to the poor. I haven't cared about the poor. I mean, we can go down the list of political idolatry. Anyway, none of that exists to my knowledge. Now, to be fair to this school, there was a policy on the books about divorce. That if you were divorced, it was the same thing. But I found out later that from staff members, that if you are divorced, there will be a conversation.

And there were people in the missions field who had been divorced. so they had blessed them and sent them. But for this, there would be no conversation. So I share this with this admissions person, and he goes, okay, well, thank you for sharing. He says, like, in the next day or two, we'll get back to you with any other questions, or if you've been accepted or denied. And I said, okay, thank you so much. And I hang out. And I immediately go, oh, beep.

No, like, I am not going to this school. you could not drag me to the school. I will never be attending here. I am done. And I was like, thank you, Lord, for the clarity. It's a wrap. So I am like, okay. And he calls me back a couple hours later.

And he starts crying. And he said, I want you to know that you have been accepted and that it would be an honor for you to be on our campus. And my hope is that you could be the catalyst of change to get rid of this policy. What? And I'm like, okay, wow, no pressure. And like, you know, wow, that's a big thank you. I'm honored.

And I went from like, I am never going to this school to, I think I'm supposed to go. So I go. And when I'm there, there were so many things that had happened. and I looked, I'm not going to get into every single piece, but the main thing is, since I brought up this policy, is I immediately, as soon as I hit the ground, I'm like, I want to know about this policy, I want to know why it exists, I want to know what's hard, I want to know where it comes from,

what is the biblical, you know, sources that you're using for this, like I go into it. And I keep hitting dead road after dead, you know, closed door. And then I finally talked to this one staff member, and they're like, if you talk to the senior member, the senior staff member, they most likely have the answer. So I go, set up a talk, and I ask, why does this exist? And what was shared with me was so debilitating for me.

And it was that this school had sent out a predator into the field that had preyed on and abused children in the school's history. And it was shared with me that this policy was created in response. And I said, was this homosexual pedophilia? Did this person, like, pray on the same sex? No answer. And I said, how did we go from a predator abusing children in the ministry to if you have been in a long-term same-sex relationship.

You are banned. How do we get from A to B? How does this correlate? And there was no answer. And it just revealed to me that so many people in the church think that that is who we are. And in this Bible school, it revealed this absolute horrendous reality of what they think of me. Now, there's so much I left out. But those are the main things that have happened in the last few years.

Not only is that obviously dehumanizing, it's just scientifically bad. It's been very well established for many, many years that pedophilia is a categorically different thing than, whether it's same sex or opposite sex is a categorically different. thing than opposite sex attraction, same-sex attraction that is not towards children. Like that's, and obviously it's a dehumanizing assumption that it was popular in 1968 and the 70, you know, like it's weird that were this. I think that was around the time when this policy was created. So you asked me about Jesus. Jesus is the air that I breathe and he is my life

and throughout this process he has only stepped closer to me and I know it and I've tried to understand this well and process this well and it was such an easy temptation for me to say A equals B. Your church did this, your people did this, your pastors did this Jesus, so this must be you. And I can't even, or this must be what you want.

And I can't even begin to explain how he just supernaturally within my heart and within my soul and my mind and my body, like all of me showed me no. This is not him. This is not his heart. And it has been through faithful individuals, not connected to any form of church, organized body that love Jesus that have held me and have walked with me. But my experience and the experience of so many other queer and trans people is of scapegoating, marginalization, and then outcasting from the church. and I just love him. I love that so much. I want to hear two,

as we close, offer two either encouraging, challenging, encouraging, challenging thoughts for two different people listening. Number one, for other people,

trans, not trans, gay, straight, who have experienced church hurt that's maybe to a similar extent. Not I heard a couple of bad sermons or I feel disconnected, but like they've got some serious, you know,

episodes that they've had in church. So I want you to speak whatever you feel led to say to that person. And then I'll ask you the second question after. Thank you. Trying not to cry. If you are a queer person, if you are a trans person,

if you are a gender minority, if you experience same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria, if you are any part of the LGBT plus beloved community, I am the living proof that the Lord loves queer trans people. And my life is a living testimony that Jesus loves you more in a moment than you can fathom in a lifetime. and that he will never leave you. He will never forsake you.

He is with you. You are his beloved child. And sometimes the church, and there are people who will try to stand in between us and Jesus and keep us out. But please, beloved, know that nothing can get in the way of Jesus. And that he will find you no matter where you are. And he loves you for all eternity. And I love you too. I love that.

Thank you. All right. Next person. For those who are listening who are Christian leaders, pastors, ministry leaders, campus leaders, actually since this has been largely church focus, let's focus on somebody in church leadership, pastors, leaders, who are maybe hearing this and saying, gosh. I want to make sure our church is not that.

What do you want to say to them? Oh, Lord Jesus, please speak. Beloved leaders, I would say to you that to my community, you need to understand the mantle and the history and the posture you take with us. like I said out of the blessing and the privilege of the multitude of queer people that I know for those who have shared their story with me believers and non-believers there is not one who has not shared with me some form of church hurt abuse trauma and it can be exhausting for us to have to validate our own pain in your presence so I pray

that you care enough to weep with those who weep and to rejoice with those who rejoice and to understand that we were created in the image of God too and that we are beloved and that your mantle, your position is something that can come with such pain and trauma and distrust. But one thing that the Lord showed me, is that in my pain from the church, it took the true church to heal it. And you leaders have an opportunity to be a part of healing. You can be the pastor, the deacon, the elder, the leader that is not hate-filled, that is not bigoted, that loves the queer people at your church, in your organization, under your influence,

whatever it may be, you can be the embodiments of God's love to them. You have this opportunity. And I believe that you can do it. And I believe that you can do it well. Because it's not in our strength. It is in our saviors that you will do it. Remi Roth, Jen, thanks so much for being to guess. I'm the Algeria.

Really appreciate you. Love you, Preston.