Theology in the Raw - Gender Dysphoria, Transitioning, Detransitioning, Sex, Gender, and Faith: NJada

Episode Date: December 12, 2024

NJada experienced gender dysphoria as a teenager and began transitioning at the age of 19. As he continue to pursue the path of transitioning, he felt like he could never fully "scratch the itch" of wanting to be a woman. He ended up detransitioning and has learned to manage his dysphoria by accepting the fact that he is male. You can follow NJada on Twitter/X @Herenotthere5  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The exiles and Babylon conferences happening again, April 3rd to April 5th, 2025 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I cannot wait for this conference. We're talking about the gospel and race after George Floyd. We're talking about transgender people in the church, social justice and the gospel, two perspectives, and a dialogical debate about whether the evangelical church is good for this country. Featuring my new friend, Adam Davidson. He's an atheist journalist and Sean McDowell, my other good friend, they're going to banter around about that topic. We also have Latasha Morrison, Ephraim Smith, Mark Yarhouse, Malcolm Foley, and many other awesome speakers. We're also adding some breakouts

this year, and we're going to have a killer after party. I can't wait for that one. Actually, if you want to attend a conference, you can do so by going to theology, raw.com. You want to register early. We do have an early birth, a fairly aggressive early bird special. It ends December 31st. So if you are planning on attending the conference, you want to sign up before then you could also attend virtually. If you can't make it out to Minneapolis again, April 3rd to 5th, Minneapolis, Minnesota, exiles of Babylon, go to theology and the rod.com. And I hope to see you there. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the rod. Just a reminder that registration is open for the exiles of Babylon conference, April 3rd, 5th, and we are running a, an early bird special through the end of February. The price keeps going up the later you take to register. So if you

do plan on attending the excels and Babylon conference in Minneapolis, Minnesota, I don't know if I said that then you want to register sooner than later, it's going to be an absolute awesome conference. Can't wait. And you can find all the information that theology and the rod.com. All right. My guest today is in Yada. I came across and Yada's name from a mutual friend who said, you should check this guy out. He's got an interesting story. So I looked up some YouTube conversations that he has had and where he shared his story. And I was just very impressed with his honesty, with his journey, and also just his, his really precise thoughtfulness. So we're going to get to know Enyatta and his story

that moves from experiencing gender dysphoria to transitioning and then ultimately to de-transitioning and how his faith was integrated into that journey. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one gender raw and yada. Am I pronouncing that right? Yeah. And the other in the auto. All right. Why don't we start by just, I would just love to know like as far back as you want to go, tell us about your upbringing and in particular, the parts of your life that most intersects with your gender, sexuality, faith, and how all that is part of your journey. Yeah.

So I guess trying to keep both of those things in mind about gender, sexuality, and then in faith. I definitely had like a different way of perceiving myself as a boy, I guess, you know, at an early age. Like I can look back on being, you know, five years old and definitely having like the wish to wear like dresses or things like that. But you know, you can never really be too sure what to make of that when a kid is that young. You know, is that going to be a lasting thing? Or is that going to, you know, kind of come and go? But you know, looking back on it, it definitely indicates to me that I had just a different way of perceiving myself for most boys. I've, you know, told

some of these things on other on the few other podcasts I've done. So I'll try not to overly rehash stuff. But there were just like things like, like I remember podcasts I've done, so I'll try not to overly rehash stuff. But there were just things like I remember seeing, I'm guessing it was some Academy Awards thing or something. I remember seeing a woman with the type of dress that has her shoulders showing. I just found that very pretty. I remember being five years old and just being

very captivated by like certain like feminine styles And wanting to dress that way and then I remember Like coming up with this game on the spot and my brother and I would would come up with games on the spot Or well, we would just we would come up with games, but I was just pretending that I already knew this game Like I didn't make up the rules These are just the rules of the game where one person has to be a boy and the other has to be a girl. And then I was like, well, you're my older brother.

So obviously you're gonna wanna be the boy. So I guess I'll be the girl, you know? So, and then I remember like start going like this with my like shirt collar. And I was like trying to imitate that. Okay. And then when it was like, okay, what are the rules of the game?

Then I didn't have any rules to the game. So I just like, I don't know. I don't remember what I did. I just was like, anyway, uh, about something else. I don't know. So, you know, there were just, you know, things like that, that were there. Um, I know at a, at a really early age and I remember kind of finding girls to be, um, I don't know. I mean, it was, it was weird because like when I started like know, I mean, it was weird because when I started kindergarten in first grade, it would seem like I had no interest in girls at all. I thought that they were icky and whatever, but I also secretly thought that they were pretty. I assumed that all the other boys would make fun of me if they knew that I liked a girl and stuff like

that. But boys and girls were super segregated and it seemed like we just naturally did that. But I don't know, I think I wasn't that preoccupied with it. I think I just found, I don't know, I was trying to describe this a bit with Phil Ily who I know that you interviewed. It was hard to describe really really what what was like my perception of girls like they they seemed like so kind of other while at the same time like it feeling like I had something that I shared with them that I didn't with other boys. That's that's so hard to really describe like at that age but it's really kind of like so much

of the stuff about AGP, you know, and metasexuality, auto attraction, that kind of stuff, which, you know, I in a general way fall into the category of AGP for sure. Real quick, can you just for people that maybe didn't listen to previous episodes, what that is? Yeah. So I mean, the way that people usually describe it is it's a male's propensity to be, or maybe a more neutral definition would be like a male's love of self as woman. Like that's what the etymology means, autogynephilia. So love of self as

a woman. So loving the idea of being a woman. A lot of people might define it as like a male's propensity to be aroused at the thought of being a woman. A lot of people might define it as like a male's propensity to be aroused at the thought of being a woman. And I like to kind of challenge that because I mean, I think that I can, it seems clear to me that the, the sort of meta attraction and sort of AGP, whatever that all is, like was clearly there before puberty hit. And it's when puberty hits that it becomes really, really impossible to ignore because now your sexuality gets swept up and you have a male sexuality, which is really like intense and visual.

So I don't think that it's inherently a matter of arousal, but as a man comes into or a young boy comes into puberty, it's like impossible that it's not going to become sexual. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.

I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.

I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point., but that's just a little too narrow. Like that might be a component, but that can't exhaust the whole spectrum of an AGP kind of experience. Yeah, I think it is. Um, you know, and like, I'm not a sexologist.

I don't do like, you know, a deep amount of like the, the reading into the literature and all of that. So like, people can, of course debate about all that. And I know a lot of people like to say like, when people say, oh no, it's not, it's not sexual. It's not, it's not a fetish and stuff like that. Like people like to say course, debate about all that. And I know a lot of people like to say, like, when people say, oh, no, it's not sexual. It's not a fetish and stuff like that, people like to say that, oh, that's a cope. They'll say that sarcastically, like, oh, it's not a fetish. No way, of course not.

And then they'll show the most ridiculous examples of males who are, it's clearly a, you know, they're, they're, it's a clearly like a sexual arousal thing for them. And it's like, that's because it can be, it can be very easily can be, you know, and so just as one person who is a very auto attracted heterosexual male, you know, or, or have a path like a very like pseudo bisexuality, I'm throwing all these terms out there now. Just like, because there's lots of people who would know me and they'd be like, you're not straight. And I'm like, I don't care if people think

that I'm not straight, like that's not, it doesn't bother me. But I think like, as far as like visually attraction, like I'm attracted to women. I don't find males, I don't just find males like sexually attractive, just like the appearance of them. But I do find men attractive though, in a way, as far as like personality and kind of romance and things like that. So I'm going on a lot of tangents.

No, no, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Tie it all together. You know, I just, as one person who, who has this type of sort of falls into the sort of AGP category, I just, I just don't, you know, and someone who I think, I think I've been a very like self-reflective person and someone who's been, you know, willing to kind of be open to the unpalatable truths, sort of like realizing like some truths, you just have to kind of bite the bullet and like, you know, face reality about yourself and there's going to be unpleasant things like, you know, I try that, you know,

to the best of my ability, everybody fails at that to a certain extent, but I just don't. So just as one such person, I don't buy the idea that, um, it's like at its root sexual. It doesn't, it just doesn't seem to be so. It seems like it's very hard for someone who has a kind of this type of orientation, so to speak, uh, who then has a male puberty is not going to find it becoming sexual. But yeah, your, your description of your childhood pre pre adolescent, you know, finding girls pretty and stuff. I could imagine people are hearing that say, well, it just sounds like a heterosexual boy. Like how was that different than somebody who?

Oh, yeah. Oh, well yeah. Because, uh, because then I wanted to look like them. Um, like when I saw the, the, the woman with the shoulderless dress and I wanted to wear that, you know, things like that. All right. So teenage years now on the other side of puberty, testosterone hormones, sexuality is getting thrown in the mix. Tell us about, yeah, that part of your journey. Yeah. When, when puberty hits. Yeah. I just remember being like uncomfortable, both being all the more fascinated by girls. I remember being sixth, seventh grade, each of those years, there was some girl that I crushed on who I just could not deal with, how pretty I thought she was. And it was just like, it was just like so,

I just had like, you know, just so, such a kind of like idealized, like I did have this like very like idealized view of women or of girls as being like, just kind of like, what, I don't know, as I was like seeing like me and the boys like all getting like really like attracted to girls and like we were like, you know, and all of us just being kind of like all getting like, really like attracted to girls and like we were like, you know, and all of us just being kind of like, dumb about it, sort of like, it was

like you can't help but get all like overly excited. And it's like so exciting. And then you just like want to like, look at them and it felt like so like, like I wanted to like, look at the pretty girls, but I felt so stupid about it. Um, and, uh, I dunno, whereas like, I sort of maybe imagine like a lot of, a lot of boys, like they might just be like, Oh, you know, haha, we're yeah, sure. Like that's what we're like, you know, we're so dumb, but whatever, like, like, look how, look how pretty they are. Like they're so hot and being like, kind of just kind of, I dunno, it just seems like maybe usually boys just start kind of like, maybe of just kind of, I don't know, it just seems like maybe usually boys just are

kind of like maybe able to embrace that. Like just we're different, we're different from girls. And like, you know, I don't know, it's hard for me to relate exactly because I'm feeling the same attraction to women. I'm feeling the same attraction to girls that like my classmates, the boys I'm friends with, but I also feel really gross about it. Did you feel a lot of shame in your feelings? Because they just were different than how you probably perceive other boys experiencing their sexuality?

Yeah. Well, I don't, I mean, I think at that point, I don't think that I was at all aware that my attraction to girls was any different from theirs. I think it was because I perceived myself differently. And so I'm not necessarily particularly conscious of wanting to dress feminine at this point. I think at this point, I am just puberty. I'm just very infatuated with girls. But I also feel like there's just something unsav, yeah, there's just something unsavory about male sexuality to me, is the way it's feeling like, is just sort of like, yeah, just that like,

just lustful sort of like feeling. It just feels like it's so like base, even though it's so appealing and attractive at the same time. So I just have incredibly mixed feelings about word, but I'm a fan of the word. And I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it.

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I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing about it. I think that's the thing? There were definitely times that I described myself that way. Yeah, I think I sort of, well, so it was sort of toward the end of high school that I started to like really strongly feel that way. And I think that was more when I like started to find like that sounds like a good description to match me. It is a little hard to explain, you know, why it will, you know, if you felt like a, a woman in a man's body, like, why didn't you like perceive that all throughout, you know, all the different times. And yeah, I mean, it's, it is, it is weird the way, um, those concepts can kind of like possess you like once you become aware of, of the concept, like it, it matches the experience to an extent and then it starts to really

take hold. Yeah. When did you start even thinking of, or yeah, when did you even start to think about the idea of transitioning? Like, was that something into your high school years or beyond that or? When I first, I guess the thought even crossed my mind would have been, yeah, sometime like the second half of high school. I mean, I was in like a gay straight alliance in high school. And I think that was just when I kind of became aware that some people transition. But it kind of, when I first heard about it,

it just kind of was like, oh, like, of course I would accept that if somebody was that way. But I, I just sort of thought like that just seems like a really unrealistic and unfulfilling thing to try to do. Like it just seemed like that like that wouldn't really work, right? Like that, that must be an incredible amount of work to, you know, just kind of achieve a semblance of being the other sex when you still have to live with having having a male body. So I think I was pretty like matter of fact about it. But then it was, you know, at that time that I

was kind of considering myself like an androgynous boy or kind of a feminine boy. But then I started to think, well, but if I had just been born female, like I wouldn't be thinking I'm an androgynous or masculine girl. I would just be like, I'd just be an average feminine girl. It felt like it just felt like the whole total part of my personality is not like the most girly girl sort of girl. Like, it's not like, like an exaggerated way. It just felt to me like, no, it just seemed to like, my personality just seems to fall into like a pretty

average, like girls girls sort of personality, like how whatever that means, like, you know, sometimes these things are just, you know, aren't things you can really describe well, but you just, you just kind of feel it. And, and that was kind of devastating to me, like thinking about when I started when I was I remember being like 17 and kind of that hitting me and then thinking like it really was just like a 50 50 chance. Like if I had been born a girl it just seems like everything would have been so normal. Like it's cool and all to be like very unique and stuff but it's like you know at the same time just like I would just like to feel normal I would just like to, I just felt like I would fit in better in every situation if

I was, if I was female and had always been female. So but it's still still transitioning didn't seem like it still seemed like a highly impractical idea. So I guess you could say that I was, you know, the, when I sort of thought about it that way, it was like, yes, it seems like I am a, a, uh, like a girl in a male body, but I'm never going to like think I'm not male. Like I'm not going to say like, that doesn't mean I'm male. So to me it was just like, but whatever, like being male, like that's not a meaningful thing. That's just like, it's just kinda, it's kinda meaningless. It's just like, that's my body.

And now I, and everybody treats me a certain way because I'm male. So they expect me to be a certain way. So obviously my male body is not an accurate reflection of my personality to people. That's the way I was taking it. Okay. And I think there's a certain amount of logic to that, that sort of, in a way, like, kind of complicates it when people want to say to people who transition, like, oh, it's just, like, delusional, like, it's like, it's a fantasy. And like, it's not really, I mean, they can, yeah, they can get delusional, like, having an intense hope can drive you to be delusional, sure. But it's not, it's not like coming from some,

it's not necessarily coming from some idea that you are something you're not. Like lots of people who are gender dysphoric are very, you know, aware of their sex. But they're just like, but my sex seems to deceive people about my personality. It feels like it, so let's just try to, I guess, get across what a conflict it is. Yeah, the term, I hear people, non-trans people describe trans people as delusional. Aside from just the offensiveness of that, I've never's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it.

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I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's the thing about it. I mean, I think that's any group of people. I mean, heterosexuals can also be very delusional about many things. Doesn't mean it's intrinsic. There's definitely lots of, lots of bad, bad stuff in the trans communities. I mean, I hear about, I hear about the, you know, like when I see like, like the like Reddit egg, you know, stuff like it's like, there's, there's a lot of bad stuff. Like I'm not, I'm not really trying to defend the trans community. I don't particularly care. I hate it when I see people adding bigotry on top of, I already think

they're wrong. I already think that the trans community is wrong. I don't need to heap extra ideas about them being delusional. They're just, they're wrong in my opinion, generally speaking. What would you say is, what do you mean when you say they're wrong? What specifically? Well, yeah, I'm being, I'm- We're jumping ahead a little bit. Yeah. Saying too much at once, I guess. But more what I mean like that transitioning or just the popularity of the idea that just

anybody who has gender dysphoria, like you're trans and transitioning is going to be the solution. Not everybody says that, but it's just a much too popular idea and people are, um, the trans community is just much too quick to, to race to, uh, kind of either declare people trans or try to get people to think that they're trans just because they have, you know, gender nonconforming, uh, kind of feelings and then just being reckless about, um, you know, recommending transitioning. Have you seen, have you experienced that in your I've heard it much more from, from other people because I was never that big on, um, uh, you know, I was never really in like trans communities, uh, very, not very much, but you know, when, in just in my own experience, when I was transitioning, um, my, my therapist was, you know,

not, wasn't, you know, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't, I was transitioning, my therapist didn't give any kind of challenging or pushback about the idea of transitioning. And in fact, I was being more cautious than my therapist was about the question, because I came into therapy when I was 19. So a couple of years later, I did just start to think like the gender dysphoria was just like, seeming like too much. And I thought,

I just don't know how I would ever be happy with being male. So I was like, you know, is there, you know, is it that I'm, I really am male, and I just have a very hard time accepting it. And it's just who knows what it's going to be what it would be like to accept that on the one hand or is it that I'm trans I was like both of those are really really big kind of things to figure out and so you know the idea of being trans seems nice but it also seems very arduous to have to go through the transition and then the idea of actually being just a guy and that I just need to accept being male, like that sucks, but like that would really suck. But like, you know, it'd be better to know the truth and then to be able to kind of engage

in the grueling task of kind of accepting that and, you know, ultimately would obviously be the better thing if I did in the end. So I kind of came into it with that sort of caution and my therapist was kind of like no you're being like I think you're being a little too the way he put it was like I understand why why you want to approach that really slowly like that makes sense to me that's a really big topic about like I think you want to approach or I, I think we want to really take this head on. And he said like, you know, therapists these days are coming to realize that, that a lot of people feel that way and people who feel that way typically transitioning is the, is the way that people feel like they're able to move forward in their lives and feel satisfied at home in

their own bodies. So when I heard that, I was just like, wow, maybe I'm just being overly cautious. You know, how like kind of how like me, you know, to be overly cautious and to be overthinking and kind of second guessing myself when actually I should have. So I hear this a lot about the therapists that approach a situation like yours that it's pretty common, but I often, I often hear it from, well, I guess, D transitioners and people who are very critical of like the trans community, trans movement. They often reference, you know, therapists that are just almost like rushing, like really encouraging people to transition almost instead of any kind of like

psychotherapy or counseling or addressing perhaps something that's more psychological going on. Is that, it sounds like that was kind of your experience to some extent. And with other people you've known that have had a similar journey, is that a common thing among therapists? Yeah. I mean, I definitely just from what I've seen on any kind of trans people that I've known, like it's just deeply improper to even raise a question about why someone wants to transition. Because that just seems, feels invalidating. Sort of like if it's even if it's even a question, it's like, why, why are you? Why are you just not perceiving me as as a

woman? If we're talking about an MTF? Trans person? Any amount of questioning is perceived as just you're like, you're not taking my word that I I know how I am. I know who I am. My genitals are not the most important thing. Why are you just thinking about this, like my physical sex? So I mean, that's generally what it is. Why is it, I guess you can't put everybody in a box. I mean, every therapist might have a different motivation, but is it that they're you can't put everybody in a box. I mean, every therapist might have a different motivation, but is it that they're really convinced

of a certain ideology that if you, if your internal sense of self is disagrees with your biological sext, and your internal sense of self is the most important thing. And so they want to, or maybe they think that transitioning really, this is the solution to gender dysphoria. So as a, somebody trying to care for your wellbeing, I'm gonna give you advice that I believe

is going to make you happy and give you a more flourishing life. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know, I don't know if I'm the best person to kind of like do an analysis on this, but yeah, it seems like the it's sort of The way that they're thinking that I think there's something There is a certain amount of truth there that they're trying to they're trying to say like focus on my personality

Don't don't focus on my my sex And it's like yeah. Yeah, it's any any kind of good and like thoughtful person wants to focus on the personality. But if that's going to cause you to recklessly abandon caution and your physical health and things like that, there has to be room to do both of those things. And so then that's where it can become manipulative to kind of just treat somebody as being bigoted or, you know, not attentive to the person just because you're raising some like, what should be some pretty obvious caution, cautionary points, questions, things to think about. So you did experience or do gender dys, just experienced gender dysphoria. Did do, do and on what level? I would say did slash do. Yeah. Cause it's like, it's, it's kind of,

it's always there to an extent, but it's nothing like it was before. Like I've worked through it a lot myself, but it's, you know, there's always certain things that I don't know will ever be like totally reconciled. Like if I had the magic button to press and then I turn female, would I do it? It's like, yes, but at the same time, like it's also like really the only thing that would be kind of totally satisfied that like ideal would be if I had not just if I became female, but if I had always been female and went through a female childhood and just everything like would be totally integrated into, you know, into that as an adult, like, you know, so then when I think about it that way, it's like, you know, you can't, you just, you know, you can't have, that's just

kind of hoping that things would be ideal, you know, it's never going to be ideal. But there's just a lot of stuff about my voice and my jaws and my shoulders and things like that, that I'm not always a fan of. But yeah, when I was, years ago, when I was transitioning and then I had to really work through the dysphoria a lot. That would be like, when just something, when I would just think about, if I would even just think about it too much or something happened that just kind of, especially in my social life, that just kind of showed I am perceived as male, I would kind of like spiral. And I would just get kind of like locked into this like I want to be a woman

but I'm not, but I want to be but I'm not and just like not being able to accept and like stop like I intellectually understood, you know that I'm male, I'm never gonna be a woman. Transitioning isn't really gonna help me because this was after I was transitioning. I was like transitioning won't actually satisfy what I want. So I like, logically understand that, but I just couldn't accept it. So I would just kind of spiral. Yeah, just thinking about it would be

kind of like overwhelming. Now it's like, I'll feel it and it can be unpleasant, but I just try to always be, you know, aware, like, when, when I'm feeling those things that at least I'm, I'm aware that like, even if I sometimes like my like distinctly male features make me feel kind of gross, nobody else perceives me that way. So that that was like a big step was to kind of like keep like kind of forcing myself to stay in reality when things like that happened. Like, you know, if I thought that I came across as gross or whatever because I'm a guy, I

would like I might like look away from people like I wouldn't like just instinctively like I wouldn't look directly at anyone's face because I expected to see some, like embarrassed, like some sort of them feeling like secondhand embarrassment or something, uh, or them cringing or them being like uncomfortable. And so I, I had, I would start to like force myself to kind of, um, not look away. Um, that's interesting. Realize people don't think I'm gross.

And so you would project your internal feelings onto like, how, if I feel like this way about myself, other people must be seeing me this way. And you had to just like mentally, real, you know, convince yourself that's, that's not actually true. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it's like, I always sort of suspected that so much of it was like social anxiety. I mean, because this is all like, this is how you like work through social anxiety. In a way, like it's in some ways, it feels like my gender dysphoria, you know, is slash was just like a distinct kind of social, social anxiety. It, you know, I'm not saying that's all it is, but yeah, it was like a kind of a social anxiety. I just, I for some reason find my male features to be really unpleasant.

And so I assume that other people do. So when you transition, did you experience a reduction at least in your gender dysphoria? Did it actually solve or kind of solve that to some extent? Yeah. I mean, I felt really good for a while. I really liked the way that people treated me. I liked the way that I kind of was accepted as one of the girls and my group of friends. I was in college at

the time. So this was between, I was transitioning between the age of 19 and 21. And, uh, yeah, like the girls would, would kind of purposely consciously accept me and as like being among the girls. And I started transitioning, you know, when I started transitioning, like, like kind of the like leader of, of my friend group, so to speak, was like a women's and gender studies person. And so she was like, when she like, kind of, in fact, like, she kind of like, she kind of noticed that I was like, kind of had thoughts like that myself too. So she kind of nudged me, you could say that

way, I'm not blaming her about like, just, you know, toward like transitioning, like, you want to transition? And then when I did start transitioning, she was the one to make sure everybody knows, you better use the pronouns. So yeah, it felt like I fit in among the girls, you could say, because I was accepted. I mean, I just I liked that it meant people, it's yes, it can be really difficult and like tedious to try to describe like what that's like. But it's like, people like to think that, that, I don't know, people don't, that it's only like, it's only these like, weird people who are

fixated on gender who like, see men and women as being so different, but it's like, no, everybody treats you differently. If they, if society decides that a person is a woman, like it's a big difference. Like your whole life kind of functions differently. Um, your social life functions differently. Like you do different things, you do things with the girls and sometimes you don't do things with the guys and then the guys come together and the guys have to have a certain deferential sort of attitude toward you. It doesn't mean that everybody's looking at you as some different species or something now, but there are certain things that the guys do differently. If they want to be respected, if they want the girls to not be angry at them, sort of, at the very least. I mean, a lot of them are genuinely trying to be nice. It just is different. And so there was kind of

a lot of that, like, people consciously kind of just placing me in the category, like, you're a woman now. We all kind of put you there now. And yet, I started to find over time, within a year and a half. So, okay, the first half year that I was transitioning, that was just clothing and name and telling people that I'm trans. And then for, well, 15, 16 months, I was on hormones, estrogen and testosterone blockers. So yeah, toward the end of that, I started getting really intense dissonance and cognitive dissonance around really feeling this way and people accepting me that way, but then finding that when I had one-on-one, deeper female friendships with girls, that there was just something really different about us.

Well, yeah, there was a particular girl. I'm trying not to tell all the same stuff that I've told in other podcasts, but there was that I often talked about how I dropped LSD with this friend of mine who was a woman and it just kind of like was where like taking LSD just kind of, if you're at least in a comfortable frame of mind, like you get extremely, you can get extremely focused, kind of like see like the underlying like mechanisms of your all your social interactions like you're like, oh I see what's going on Like and you just like I just saw how like she's she's a woman. I'm a man and there's Something there's just something like impossible to avoid about how that informed Like the way I socialize through and through and so it really doesn't matter if people try purposely

people purposely accept me and they're being sincere and everything. Like people, people still see me as, as male. Um, and I, or in, and I still, um, I still socialize like a guy, I think a certain way it's, it's hard to, it's hard to explain. Wow. So what, what, I guess what led you then, like, would you say you were very happy as you were transitioning and people being, you know, perceiving you as a woman? Like did this satisfy? Because I've heard, I've got friends on both sides, but some would say it's absolutely satisfied.

Other people describe it as like, it was not going to be who I want to be. But then again, I've got other friends that transitioning. Yeah. Um, aside from all the philosophy and everything, theology, it's just, all I know is I had excruciating gender dysphoria. Now I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,. Um, it, aside from all the philosophy and everything, theology, it's just, all I know is I had excruciating gender dysphoria. Now I don't.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, yeah, I think it, it was like that itch that never got scratched and yet it's like, it felt like it still felt like, uh, you know, this is still way more, it still felt like this is more satisfying than than anything has been before so I think when I started when I started seeing that there was that cognitive dissonance there and that there was something Like you know that I was always going to perceive I was still always going to see perceive myself as a male and not be able to fully join in on Kind of the the social world of women. I guess I I guess I just sort of I guess I just sort of got a

glimpse into, you know, that that yeah, the itch is never going to be scratched. And yet, this might be better right now. But the only way that I could ever actually scratch the itch to keep going with the metaphor, like the only way that I could ever actually scratch the itch to keep going with the metaphor, like the only way that the itch will finally be scratched or whatever is like, you know, if I actually reckon with being male. So what is that? So what, when you came to that realization,

then is that when you said I need to de-transition back to? Yeah, it was, it was when I, it Yeah. It was when I definitely was like, okay, that's kind of the dilemma. It's like, will the itch be scratched if I continue transitioning or will it be scratched if I don't? It was like, definitely won't if I transition, if I keep transitioning, but maybe things will just continue to be kind of nice the way they are right now. Or if I de-transition, I'm going to be really, really itchy. But the itch could be scratched.

We're really squeezing this metaphor. Yeah. It really worked actually. So I think when I realized that that was the dilemma, and I could look like this is the dilemma, I was like, I don't know. But I'm on hormones right now and this is going to have permanent effects. So like if it is the second option and that I could actually be satisfied as a

male, like I really better not, um, stay on the hormones. So, um, that was enough for me to kind of, um, yeah, just say, I don't, I don't know enough that I'm going to go off the hormones to be sure. And then I just kind of kept reflecting on kind of that moment of clarity that I had, you know, that eventually just led me to say, yeah, I think this is going to be the way to go to actually go forward but i was very complicated cuz that's that's where i should bring in the face aspect. Do i need to go to like my childhood with faith but i'll try to like catch it right up to this point because that is like these two things kind of collided right there i did like. Literally that day just to show you these are actually going to really intersect like. just to show you that these are actually going to really intersect. That day that I dropped acid, and wasn't the first time I ever did, but that I had that moment of clarity.

OK, well, sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I'm covering everything. You can gather your thoughts. Not only did I have that dilemma, and I don't know the answer, but I also, what made me really open to that was that I like kind of I said to myself, well, why don't I just try like looking at myself in the mirror directly and just like try on the idea of being a guy sort of.

And I guess the way I did that was basically like, I looked at myself in the mirror and I didn't I didn't like ignore like my strong jawline and all that stuff. I didn't just focus on the fact that, hey, I look kind of more like a girl. This is nice. It was more like, okay, true, but I still look like a guy, right? And then when I kind of did that, I said, why don't I just try it? And I noticed, yes, still look like a guy. I overall looked like, I thought like I look more like just like a long haired guy,

like a rock musician or something like that. Then I was just like, well, it's a good look, it's really not a bad look. So I let myself be happy with that and I remember laughing and just being like, I'm a good looking guy. I was like, this is cool, right? Yeah, I actually told my friends,

I just realized I'm a guy after that happened. Then after that, I go back to having all these questions and doubts. So I think that's a big thing with LSD, is you can have these major realizations, but you're going to come back from it, and you're not necessarily going to know what to do with it. So, you know, I had this intense moment moment of clarity, but I had to keep reflecting on it to actually see like, did

that make sense? And I would think back and I go, yeah, no, still makes sense. So I would keep going with it. And that same day, I also, as I was coming down from LSD, I was like, feeling, I've heard other people say this about dropping acid, like it makes you so like open to suggestion that you can feel like you're like, extremely like porous and like, kind of unprotected, kind of from like psychic and spiritual influences. So you can be like, you know, kind of feel like you're in, like I felt, I felt like I was kind of like in danger, sort of like I'm too susceptible, kind of. I felt this sense that I was like this like gaping wound and that I like, I needed to go to confession. And, and I'd grown up Catholic, but we didn't really take it that seriously until my dad started to take it really seriously

when I had already, when I was 12 or 13. And at that time, I had already decided I didn't believe in Christianity. So I became an atheist when I was about 13. I explored religion on my own a little bit, kind of like new age kind of stuff. And then I was just like, no, like religion is kind of stuff. And then I was just like, nah, like religion is kind of dumb. You were going to talk about how your faith intersected with your desire to deep transition, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, so it was, because it was that same day that, yeah, that I dropped acid, I had that realization. It was as I was coming down, I felt like, yeah, I just felt this like, this need to go to confession. And it was by coincidence, the one of like three times of the week that the Catholic

Church in town, which I'd never been to, you know, where I was going to college, they were having confession. And you know, I mean, honestly, I try not to make too big of a deal out of like spiritual experiences and like formative spiritual experiences, especially there was LSD involved and stuff. It's a big part of the Catholic mystical tradition that you don't really hold on that hard to spiritual experiences. When you hold on to them, they kind of take on an importance that's disproportionate. And the spiritual life is not all about these glittering, kind of phenomenal things, but it's something much less easy to sort of describe and is kind of more seen in the ordinary day-to-day of

life. But it had the effect it had, so I take it as being all a good thing and part of God's providence. That's pretty much, you know, to the extent that I try to, that I still sort of hold on to these memories. Yeah, I mean, I did go and just get a lot of things off my chest that I was feeling very like, weighed down about how I was just doing, you know, things were going wrong in life. I was trying so hard, you know, and honestly, I wasn't like going to confession was like, I've been transitioning, I've been, you know, trans, I've been, you know, so sinful, like trans. It wasn't really that. Maybe I said, maybe I confessed transitioning then. I don't even think I did, honestly. I think the reason

I went to confession was because I felt like I'm transitioning and look at how hard I'm trying to satisfy myself and failing, sort of. I felt like, and I had just been reflecting a lot, and actually in the last few times that I dropped acid and mushrooms, I kept kind of coming to this thing that I felt like I was just an extremely selfish

person and that there was sort of some like benevolent kind of force. I was starting to become more spiritual around that time, you know, kind of, I guess unsurprisingly, like getting into psychedelics and stuff. I was like thinking about spirituality and I was starting to believe in God and I was sort of like feeling like I'm very selfish and there is like, there is a God who loves me anyway sort of. That was kind of like a theme that I was kind of, I guess, sort of themes that I was picking up on in life. And yeah, I don't remember that much specifically of what I confess, but I do remember just like one thing that I remember. I mean, I remember

saying, you know, I'm allowed to say what my confessions are, obviously a priest couldn't, but I'm allowed to. Sometimes people think like you're not supposed to say, like, if I want to say, I can say. But I said, like, I'm sorry for like how many times I've heard, like I've heard about God and I didn't believe. And then I said, you know, some other things I said, I just like said, like I'm that I don't keep up in touch with my grandmother. You know, when I know how much that would mean to her, you know, it's just things like that, that I just felt like I just felt like I was so self absorbed and I was trying so hard to satisfy my life. You know, that I think is really the substance of what led me to go to confession. I'm sure it, you know, sounds, I'm fully aware of how ridiculous it sounds to so many people like,

oh, you were transitioning, you took acid and you wanted to go to confession, like some big time, like repression going on there or something. No, this was what I was confessing. I felt like, why am I so unhappy and unsatisfied when I'm constantly trying to satisfy myself? I was sobbing and I went back out into the church and it was just before they were having Saturday evening mass. So I went to mass too. I just saw worship

and I just realized like I want to worship, like I wanted to worship God. And I kind of wanted to worship God like Hindus worship, like I was starting to become really drawn to Hinduism because I liked the like mysticism of the kind of simplicity of Buddhism and also Taoism. But I just started believing in God too, like around that time I started being like, Hinduism has so much of that, but they

also have God, they worship, and there's something kind of that seems more inherently social about Hinduism, about the Hindu tradition. You know, that may well have been more kind of stereotype, more a stereotype than reality. But it just seems like it seemed like Hinduism is more of a, you know, has the mystical, you know, high, you know, mysticism, but it's also has all this stuff for kind of every, you know, people have every walk of life. And then I was starting to think, you know, around this time, like, you know, so I was, I was kind of like, okay, I can kind of see why Christians, you know, why they worship God, like, it makes sense. It's kind of, it's kind of, it seems a little more fairy tale-ish and kind of quaint. And I thought, like, you know, it's, I'm sure it has something

good for people. Like, it's got a lot of bad stuff, but I'm sure, you know, I'm sure it works for people. If people don't like the Eastern meditation and stuff like that, then if Christianity works for some people, that was the way I was thinking of it. But I did start, I was also starting to read the Bible, just wanting to be more literate, kind of. And I was surprised by some of the things that really struck me in the book of Genesis, because obviously I was going to read it from Genesis to Revelation, which I didn't do. I was just surprised with some of the things I picked up on. And I think it was in the back of my mind, like floating around in there and remembering some of

the things I grew up with that I did pick up on about Christianity. I remember some things from the Sermon on the Mount that always stuck with me. And I always remember Jesus saying a little like a cartoon in Sunday school with Jesus being hoisted up on the cross and saying, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. And that, I always felt like that was like something that was like no matter how much stuff about Christianity seemed wrong to me, that was something that really showed that that should be self-evident. Of course, that's the way God is toward us. He fundamentally has goodwill toward everyone and his forgiveness is completely ungrudging, things like that.

So when I kind of refocused in on that and confessed my sins, the things that were weighing on me, I had a moment to kind of just be like, yeah, I don't have to hold back anything from God. If it's devastating to kind of realize like how much I'm failing in life and how much I'm like how selfish I am, like then the fact that I realized that should make me incredibly happy. And it did like I was like it was like I became incredibly happy whenever I realized how much I'm sucking at life, and how selfish I am. Because I'm like, this is the beginning now of me not doing that. This is the beginning of things actually getting better. And I mean, I think that is kind of the pattern I was describing before was like, I could keep transitioning and it be,

and hope that it will at least be satisfying enough or I could realize that, yeah, it's gonna suck to kind of really like come to terms with being male, but it really is the beginning of an actual opportunity to actually be at home in myself. So you said you don't, I mean, you still might struggle with some gender dysphoria, but you've been able to kind of manage it. Is it really come down to something as simple, not easy, but maybe just simple as the cognitive discipline

of accepting the fact that you are male. Does that actually reduces your dysphoria or is there something more psychologically complicated that you have to do to mitigate that? I like to say that sometimes it has to like begin with acceptance. But like you can accept and it be like, yeah, yeah, I accept it. But it sucks. You know, that's not enough, obviously. Okay. Like you have to, you have to love being male. And yeah, I admit that I don't always love everything about being male.

So a lot of things that I definitely don't love about it. But, you know, I like this, this is my body. Like I think I still love my body. And yeah, I'll try to work up to that because like, I because like, like I said, it began in a lot of ways, it did just begin with just accepting and sort of like hoping that there I was going to find somehow like I will like love my body and there I mean there was just kind of a leap of faith there like that I was thinking like if this is the way that God made me then surely like I will find at the bottom of it like why this is satisfying to me and and what I first kind of found was like, it took a little while to like kind of give away some of my like, kind of women's clothes. And I mean, I mean, now, just like, fast forward to the very end of the story, like in the last like year or so, like I'm wearing like, probably

more than 5050. Like I'm wearing more women's clothes than men's clothes. Like, maybe I didn't, maybe, maybe then I didn't technically have to give away all the women's clothes than men's clothes. Like maybe I didn't, maybe then I didn't technically have to give away all the women's clothes. Maybe I didn't have to go back to wearing boring men's clothes. To me it's boring. But in a way I kind of did. Like I needed, like in some way I needed to like step back from it.

You know, the thing that was actually, the thing that was kind of like most satisfying about it at first was just the fact that was actually the thing that was kind of like most satisfying about it at first was just the fact that like I could just for a little while like just not worry about the way I look because even though it was satisfying in a lot of ways, wearing women's clothes, wearing what I like to wear and all that, it was also like it just takes like all this work to like try, you know, all this work and you still don't look like a woman. You know, like I have to shave every day, like I like to shave every day,

but if I don't shave one day, really, it's not a big deal. Like I like that's one thing like I'm fine. Fine with having a little bit of stubble. Prefer not to but you know, doing all this stuff and there's just a, it just didn't really seem... Yeah, it was just nice to be able to be like, not having to worry about how I look, to just be able to just be... So that was actually relaxing. That was just kind of a nice... It was refreshing, I guess. It was refreshing to sort of stop really thinking about gender

because I would just be like, you know, like what even, what does it even mean? I feel like it's not really like, there's just not really, like it's not really anything, like gender isn't really anything. Can you expand on that? I, so for the audience, and they've heard me speak or write on this, you know, sex is biological sex. And in this conversation, oftentimes people make a distinction between sex and gender. Gender being the psychological, social, and cultural aspects of being male and female, which can be broken down into like gender identity,

gender role, gender expression. The way gender is often described when it's being distinguished from sex, from my vantage point, it seems like so much is wrapped up in gender stereotypes, sex stereotypes. And I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a surrounding sex. It seems like from my vantage point, but you said gender isn't a thing. So I think we're probably on, on similar pages. Can you expand on that by saying gender is another thing? Well, to an extent, I agree. And, um, maybe to some extent I don't, but I wouldn't say like too much that I don't cause I mean, yeah, it's like, I get, I get that like gender is not a thing. I don't know what better word to use. An ontological thing that is on gender is not a thing. I don't know what better word to use. Like an ontological thing that is on-

Doesn't have metaphysical reality. It's not a soul, it's not, I don't know. I think it is something real in a way, but it's just like if you're expecting it to be a thing with its own ontological reality and metaphysical reality. Yeah. Like, you know, the no, no, I don't, I don't think that I don't think that you can, I don't, I certainly don't think that you can be, you know, in the wrong body or, you know, be a

woman in a male body or female in a male body, whatever gender is, it's something that kind of like, like, I think of gender as basically being like a kind of grammar or language. And so I do, I think it's an important thing. Like I think gender is an alleged concept. I think it's a, it's an important topic. I think a lot of people are much too dismissive about that. A lot of people are, you know, cause they're just like, just like, you know, gender doesn't mean anything. So just don't even don't even talk about it. It's not, you know, all there is is sex. And, you know, that's that like if somebody thinks that they're the somebody thinks they're a woman, but they're male, like they're just they're just delusional. They believe in something like that's where to me,

like, it seems like it kind of, you know, if you can't kind of grant that gender has some greater significance than just being a fanciful idea, then yeah, of course you're going to think that people are just delusional, you know, if they think that they're a woman. So, I mean, I get what people mean, you know, when they say there's only sex, there's not gender, but I think that is language a thing? Is it a thing? I think it's a kind of language and grammar and it will be different in every culture. So yeah, again, you can say it's different in every culture, so there's no real basis

for it. Language is different in every culture, but there's still a grammar to it. There's still, to every language, there's still a shared kind of like structure to how human language works. So I think no matter what there will, the way I see it, there will always be gender norms in societies. And so you should be able to reckon with that and kind of accept that if you're a male, the most enlightened society will still see you as being a man. And that will have like a gender significance to it. Even if people try so hard to say that they don't, I just tend to be of a certain mind that I think people can try really hard to say that

gender doesn't exist, but they're still going to gender will still have psychological significance to them. Well, I would say like the thing, the things that the modern use of the term gender is pointing to those things are very real. I mean, again, going by the basic definition, the psychological, social and cultural aspects of being male and female, like those are me that the, the, the hard thing is, is when gender is put almost on par with sex is like a, a, an equally valid ontological aspect of being human. I think, I think the tendency in kind of, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in think the tendency among trans people is to say that gender is the more important

thing. Even if they're saying, yes, sex is real, the tendency is still to say that it's the more important one because that's what has to do with personality. Whereas sex is just the body and that's not so important. And there's a certain amount of something that makes sense about it, but that's kind of treating like the importance versus like the actual like, yeah, I don't know, there's not, I don't have the best best words for that because I see it. Yeah. Yeah. The difficulty I have when people describe gender or will make, for lack of a better terms, a big deal out of gender, oftentimes they will define gender a certain way, but

then further on in the conversation or further on in the book or whatever, they just use the term in just inconsistent ways. So it gets really confusing. And, and, and sometimes they'll say sex is different than gender. And then, you know, in the next chapter of the book, they're using gender as almost a synonym for sex or, or, so, I mean, I, I've, I've done this as a mental exercise in, in many books I've read on the topic where I'll take their definition of gender. And then now for the rest of the book, I will, whenever I see the word gender, I will, I will insert I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going

to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to go out of my way to, unless I'm actually talking about the cultural, psychological, and social aspects of being male or female, I just stick to the word sex or male, female. You know? So the way that maybe that makes me think of like to put it is that, um, it, it seems

to me like that, uh, when someone is saying, to put it is that it seems to me like that when someone is saying, well, personality is more important. So like, gender is more is kind of the more important thing than your sex. It's kind of I don't know, like they're saying that, like, I don't know, be like analogous to saying that language is more real than like the like body that you use to express language. It's like, I think language is real. Right. But it's real in this kind of like secondary sense, sort of. Yeah. So it's like, yes, I'm not saying like, just sort of because gender or sorry, because sorry, because personality is more important, therefore, therefore gender is more real.

That seems like maybe that's where the disconnect is happening. We're getting deep into it. I love this. I knew going in. When you said different kind of mixing definitions of gender. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess it depends on what we mean by more important. What does that mean? One is more objectively real in a sense, our biological sex, we could be in a coma and we're still like, that is just not changing at all. I mean, a hundred years after I die, people will be able to determine whether male or female, they won't, you know, so there's like an object of stability to our biological sex, but I can get where somebody, I could, I could get where somebody would say personality is, is, is super important too, you know? But I just wouldn't want to put maybe one up against it. I don't know.

I know it's mixing it up because I mean, just in a general way, I think most people would agree like, you know, your personality is more important than your body. Like in the sense of like when you're talking about like, I don't know the worth of people, like, you know, someone's like someone's value kind of, but that doesn't mean that your body is like a, like something like that. It's less important to accept, like, like reckoning with your body or take care of your body. You wouldn't say like, I have like, Oh, it's like, I'm gonna like do a lot of drugs and like eat really unhealthy because my personality is the only thing that matters.

Right. And we now know both from science, but I mean, just theologically, philosophically and theologically, at least I'm of the mindset that I think we're a lot more integrated than we are disconnected. So I don't- And I agree with that too. Yeah. Like the soul, body, harsh distinction, I think I think theologically and I think philosophically there's, there are a lot more integrated. So we are embodied souls in sold bodies. Like you can't just neatly separate the material from the immaterial, but even, you know, books like the body keeps the score, you know, that everybody's read and just our knowledge now

that we can't like how we treat our body affects the immaterial aspect of ourselves and vice versa even I definitely agree. Yeah. Well, that's a big good yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean much of I think I think a lot of my my spirituality did help me to like integrate sort of the body in the soul and kind of not see the soul as being some, you know, just thing that's just kind of makes the body kind of just kind of the vessel that kind of carries the soul around. It's like, it really is, you know, your body is not exactly separate from your soul because your body is the thing, like your body expresses the soul. Body is like, is the expression of the soul.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, in Yada, this has been a fantastic conversation. I just looked at the time I've taken you over an hour. So, uh, I don't even get into how I, how I worked through, uh, well, can't indicate. Can you, I mean, if you don't mind, yeah, just maybe quickly, just cause I did realize, um, yeah, that since you're asking me about about faith, that would be important maybe to cover but yeah, I'll try to try to kind of sum it up. Yeah, I mean, when I, you know, when when I do transition, I think I think in some ways, I was like being open to the idea like maybe there is like this like, you know, masculinity that I have. So like,

I was kind of for a while I was going with this sort of like, maybe there is like a, I mean, you know, maybe almost taking it into like the, like that I have like a masculine soul. I think I don't, I don't really think I thought of it that way, but I just was, I was kind of like, you know, looking for like, you know, okay, if I'm accepting that I'm male, and that's going to be the best way for me to, to be then there. I think I think I was like forcing it a bit like, not only was I like comfortable with kind of not worrying about how I looked, but I just was like, you know, I was like, well, I am attracted to women. And like, I would like to, I would like to try to like properly actually have like relationship with a woman.

You know, I gave that a try and I would find that, I don't know, people would tell me like you're an attractive guy, but I just like, I don't really seem to have like the type of personality like because of my kind of like, kind of auto sexual sort of orientation, however you want to put it, like that's the thing that I like found like it's not that's, that's probably a pretty intrinsic part of me. And so that seems to mean that like my like, the way that I just naturally sort of behave when it comes to romance is like a little bit more like akin to the way that it seems like women do. And so I'm trying to take on the male role in romance and things like that. Even if I might look good with a beard and short hair and stuff like that or whatever,

I could not get into romance with women. I couldn't be flirtatious. It's just weird to me. It's like anytime that I've had a girlfriend and she wanted a tall, strong guy to lean on, it just feels weird to me. I get why she wants that though. I get it. But that's what I would want for myself. As I started doing that exposure therapy kind of thing. Yeah, I guess I am realizing this would maybe require a little too much time to explain. So yeah, well, I don't know, maybe I'll have to pick up on this another time. But definitely, definitely

my prayer life was an important part of it was just a way of, you know, not only, you know, doing the kind of exposure therapy of like, you know, not looking away kind of from uncomfortable social situations, allowing myself to get that feedback from other people, like other people aren't weirded out by my behavior. So why, like, why should I be? But there was also a lot of times where just, if things were like, yeah, I could, I could take these things to prayer too and kind of like, you know, have a reminder of like the things that I know about God, about the way that he looks at me, and is definitely not disgusted by me or anything

that's just normal, pale stuff about me, you know, or even anything that it was actually wrong, anything sinful, he still doesn't has a ultimately looks at me as good and that he that he wants me. That's kind of like, it can be counterintuitive. Like when you just like it's just easy to walk around life, I guess, without kind of maybe I maybe I know that about God, but I tend to intuitively like kind of imagine maybe God like, you know, like sneering at me or like being very disappointed and, you know, things like that. So just like making it a conscious practice of like remembering, like bringing those things to prayer, taking like the especially like the term I use, like is self-disgust, like when I'm disgusted with myself, like actually lay that out to God. I think that's really what I learned is God wants us to actually lay out everything that

we think that we shouldn't appear before God until we've taken care of this stuff. Like He actually wants you to bare your heart about it. And it's not until you do that you don't have to, you don't have to then do the same thing I was doing with people. Like, I don't have to look away from God. I can actually be with God and then find out that everything is okay in some fundamental way.

So I'm sorry. I realized there was, there was more I would have maybe wanted to describe, but it would, it would make no sense to get into it without a whole other thing. So that's good. I mean, you've given us a ton to think about and process. Uh, yeah, again, and Yada, this has been a fascinating conversation and really appreciate your honesty and vulnerability. And uh, yeah, man, thanks for being a guest on the show. Cause If people want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to do that? Oh, you gotta be pretty active on Twitter, right?

Yeah. I guess just look me up on Twitter. My handle is here, not there. Five. No spaces in between. I thought it's at Inyatta. No, if you search in Inyatta, it'll get to you. Yeah. If you search on Google, just anyata, Twitter, or x.com. Okay. All right, man. Thanks for being a guest. Appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hi I'm Haven and as long as I remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I started Haven the Podcast. It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation, and we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships

to even your view of yourself, and we don't have answers or solutions, but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven the Podcast. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out the podcast. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.