Theology in the Raw - Greed, Racism, and the Nonviolent Revolution of Jesus: Dr. Malcolm Foley

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Dr. Malcolm Foley (PhD, Baylor University) is a pastor, historian and speaker who serves as special advisor to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University. He is the author of the upcoming book, The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money Is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is my friend, Dr. Malcolm Foley, who got his PhD at Baylor University. Malcolm is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as a special advisor to the President for Equity and Campus Engagement at Baylor University. And he is the author of the about to be released book, The Anti-Greed Gospel, Why the Love of Money is a Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward. This is a fantastic book, very provocative, very challenging. So if you want a nice, easy book that won't challenge you in any way, then stay away from this one.

But if you like to be challenged and have your heart and mind messed with, then you're going to want to pick up this book. It's super, super good. I met Malcolm, gosh, I've known of him for a while, but we first met in person last September when we spoke at the Center for Pastor Theologians annual conference. And this dude lit up the room. Honestly, his talk was among the best talks I've heard in the last five years. Truly. It was mind blowing. So I was like, I got to get to know this guy better. It's funny. We've actually been, we've

actually crossed paths several times since then at different conferences and so on. And of course I invited Malcolm out to speak at the XL's conference in April. He's going to be participating in a dialogue with Thaddeus Williams about whether or not social justice is an intrinsic part of the gospel. Cannot wait to listen to that dialogue at the Exiles Conference. If you too want to listen to that dialogue at the Exiles Conference, April 3rd to 5th in Minneapolis, Minnesota, go to theologyinthera.com and check it out. You'll hear Malcolm and Thaddeus and many, many other speakers. It's going to be an amazing time.

So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Dr. Malcolm Foley. Dr. Dr. Foley, how are you doing this morning? I'm doing great. I'm really excited for this podcast. I've been excited for this podcast for a very long time. I'm really excited. I'm excited.

I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm great. I'm really excited for this podcast. I've been excited for this podcast for a very long time.

I wanted to have this podcast last October. But yeah, we had to wait because we want to make sure that this coincides with the release of your book. I'll hold it up again. The Anti-Greed Gospel. You're going to push some buttons with this book. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. From the little I've gotten to know you, I don't think you're bothered by that. But give us the backstory. Where did this book come from? Well, it really started back in 2020. Brazillus reached out to me about a book on racial violence and the church, because my research is primarily about lynching, specifically black Protestants responding to lynching in the late 19th and early 20th century. And I had been talking, I think,

probably on Twitter and other places, just of about that history. And so they asked for this book and I didn't have time at the time because I was finishing my dissertation, but time went on and they kept asking me. So I was like, hey, you know, I put something together. It was around 2022 when I also I re-engaged with Martin Luther King. I also read Jonathan Tran's book, The Asian Americans and the Spirit of Racial Capitalism, and then what is now one of my favorite books of all time, which is Antonio Gonzales's God's Reign and the End of Empires. And I put those, once I put those three things together, I found I, I

believe I saw the, I saw the world in a different, I saw the world in a different, in a different way. And one of the things that I saw was that our conversations about race are really, are really ought to be conversations about racial capitalism, which is to say America's history with race is really just a proxy battle of a cosmic war that Jesus described back in Matthew 6 when he told us that we cannot serve two masters, we'll either love one and hate the other or be devoted to the one and despise the other, that we can't serve both God and mammon or riches. That tendency toward greed as I think are as I think the most insidious idol that fights for our attention, that is what lies at the root of both the

history of race but also the mobilization of racism. And so the goal of this book is to not only show people that reality but also to equip communities to actively resist that reality. Can you argue for your case that, show me the reasons why greed and capitalism are related to, not just related, but intrinsic to racism, because those seem like different categories. It's the only reason that race as a category exists. So the Portuguese, when they travel to Africa, witness chattel slavery and decide to get involved, they don't get involved because they're racist. They get involved because they're greedy.

They get involved because this is an opportunity for them to expand their markets with really, really cheap labor. And then as time goes on, they've got to justify that state of affairs to themselves and also to the pope. And so then you get, so that's where the language of affairs to themselves and also to the Pope. And so then you get, so that's where the language of particularly blackness and whiteness, that's where that enters into the lexicon as something that has those kinds of meanings. They've got to tell themselves, well, we're Christianizing the heathen, civilizing the savage.

That's what this is really about. No, it's not. It's about you making a whole bunch of money and you being able to tell yourself, it's perfectly fine for me to make a whole bunch of money. And it's clear in the logic of racialized chattel slavery, just kind of as a whole, the reason why it began and the reason why it continued was specifically because there were people who were poised to profit immensely from it. And that's a logic that continues. I argue in the book that also the phenomenon

of lynching in American history also has at its root. The desire for power and money is what precipitates it. And it also ends because of that same desire. It doesn't end because people just realize, wait a minute, we probably shouldn't burn black men alive in front of thousands of people. It ended because it became a national embarrassment. It became an obstacle to capital investment.

So folks found other ways to suppress black communities, other ways to exploit them. That didn't include such public acts of brutality, but the brutality remained. So wait, so what helped end lynching was the public perception that was starting to be awakened to it, and people that were advocating for lynching were, in a sense,

they're gonna lose money, in a sense? It was not economically advantageous for them to continue lynching? Is that OK? In the starting in, especially in the 20s, 30s, and on, you start to see editorials from around the world. So places like France and Japan are writing editorials about lynchings going on in the US and they're like who these

these Americans these Americans are sandwiches. So we're getting that kind of attention and also the South is trying to industrialize and their economy is rapidly changing and to get all of this bad press it's just not it's not good for business. So that's when they start leaning leaning more into Jim Crow legislation, start leaning leaning more into the black codes, other things like that. Here are ways that we can keep this community over there without necessarily kind of publicly killing them and so and so those phenomena coincide historically for that reason. But even in thinking about the way that

it starts, so 1865 to 1877 you have the period of Reconstruction. Immediately after Reconstruction, so when those federal troops are withdrawn from the South and white Southerners begin to take political power back, you have a period of unprecedented racial violence, not only to suppress voting, but also to suppress the building of black businesses and things like that. It's in the late 1880s that lynching becomes a racialized practice.

Up until that point, you have black and white people being attacked by mobs as this kind of popular justice kind of thing. But in the late 1880s, the number of black men particularly being lynched, the proportion rises, kind of skyrockets. And it's also at that time that you see the narrative that this is only happening because black men sexually assault white women. And that's the narrative that's been pushed for years and years and years and years. And it's not until folks like Ida B. Wells and others in the 1890s and following start

investigating these things and finding out, wait a minute, sexual assault is only an accusation in a minority of these cases. It's actually the case that lynching is actually a tool of social control. It's a way of, quote, keeping the Negro in his place. And his place is exploitable thing. She and others kind of expose that narrative. But yeah, it begins and ends because of money, because it's part of, as I want to argue in the book, it's part of this broader set, not only system, because I know we even now in our conversations about race, the word systemic is now back to being a part of our lexicon. But I want us to look even

beyond that. I want us to be reminded that actually the battle that we're waging is won against powers and principalities. I want us to understand how dark the situation really is and how long this battle has really been fought, but also the resources that particularly the body of Christ has in order to engage in that struggle. Pete The most explicit verse that comes to my mind, in light of what you just said, is Ephesians 3 10, one of my favorite, it's one of my favorite verses. It's actually half of a sentence, but you have, obviously, you know, Ephesians 2, the latter part of Ephesians 2 is all about ethnic reconciliation,

Jew, Gentile coming together in one body. And then Paul goes on what seems like a detour, but it's not, where he kind of, in chapter 3, verse 2 and following, about his mission to the Gentiles. But that's really participating in the same thing he's been talking about. And he has this one long sentence. It's like a several verse long sentence that keeps escalating, escalating, escalating. And in 310, he gives, for people who know Greek, this Hena clause, which is a purpose clause, so that God may display His manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers. You think it's kind of odd, like, why do you just bring in a bunch of power language, angelic beings or however you want to think of it? But that's the climax of a two-chapter long, passionate argument about ethnic reconciliation so that God can show off His power to the principalities

and powers, which makes you think, why would He want to do that? But that goes right to your point. It's because by bringing people together in one body, He is showing defeat over what the principalities and powers have been trying to do. Is that a chapter in your book? Yeah. That specific text doesn't show up. But that is true's that specific text that specific text doesn't doesn't yeah Yeah, show up but ideas it but that is true and it's funny because people are going to I Hope when people encounter the book it in some ways purports to be a book about race But it's less about race than it is about what lies behind race and racism

because one of the things that I also want to argue is that race is a race is largely a smoke screen and It was historically created to be Because one of the things that I also want to argue is that race is largely a smoke screen. And it was historically created to be just that. So I frame it as part of a demonic cycle of self-interest. That it begins in the desire to exploit and dominate each other. But because we prefer not to be exploited and dominated, so in order to keep us in that position we employ violence. Well, because we don't like to think of ourselves as waking up and thinking, oh, what a great We prefer not to be exploited and dominated. So in order to keep us in that position, we employ violence.

Well because we don't like to think of ourselves as waking up and thinking, oh, what a great day of exploiting, dominating, and killing my neighbor. So we create narratives in order to tell ourselves that that's not what we're doing to each other. And that's specifically the role that race plays as both a justifying and a mystifying narrative. So we have this cycle of exploitation, violence, and lies, exploitation, violence, and lies, exploitation, violence, and lies. Systemically, that's what we call racial capitalism, but it is a logic that specifically communities that are called to live in union with Christ are specifically called to resist at each point. And so the first half of the book is history, second half of the book is, okay, what does that resistance looks like? Look like. And what I, and what I argue is that

contra the exploitation of that cycle, we're, we're to be communities of deep economic solidarity contra the violence, we're to be communities of creative anti-violence and contra the lies were supposed to be communities of prophetic truth telling. And we can, we can talk about all that. Yeah. Well, yeah. Can you open those up? Let's begin with that second one. Your talk you gave at the conference you spoke at in Chicago was unbelievable. And in particular, your brief five minute piece on the necessity of nonviolence was just, I was, yeah, I was the guy in the back, amening, I think. In a largely white audience, it was kind of a quiet audience.

I was just like, I got to get this guy off my butt. This is so good. So just the way you integrated nonviolence into your greater theme of racism and exploitation and all these things. Can you unpack that? Why is nonviolence intrinsic to what you're talking about? Yeah. So, let me start with the anti-exploitation point because it leads into... There's a logical connection between the two. So, contra-exploitation, one of the things I want to press is that

Christian communities at base must be communities of deep economic solidarity. And I take that from Acts 2, that immediately after the Holy Spirit descends on the people of God, there are four things that mark them. Devotion to the Apostles' teaching, prayer, the breaking of bread, and the fellowship, koinonia, that is the sharing of goods. What that indicates to me is that the economic witness of the church is one of its most significant witnesses. In Acts 4, we're told that God's grace was so powerfully at work among them that there were no needy people in their midst. What that indicates to me is that the material manifestation of God's grace is a community of sharing. Like, that's not anomalous. Like,

that's what the Holy Spirit does when the Holy Spirit is present, is that the people of God are reminded that contra an economy that tells them that they're meant to be fundamentally producers and consumers, the Lord tells us that we're to be fundamentally sharers. So love looks like that kind of material commitment. So that then leads into the violence point because the most significant things that Christ has called us to do is to love the Lord our God with all our our heart Soul mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourselves. So then the question is okay. Well, what is love? Well, the scriptures do tell us what love is

So in first John 3 16 we're told this is how we know what love is that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us Therefore we also lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters great Okay next verse though is that if any of you lacks food or clothing and somebody else has it and has no pity on them, how can you say that the love of God is in you? James makes the same kind of point when he talks about the particular works that necessarily accompany faith. It's that if somebody's got food or clothing and you don't and you just say go be warm and well-fed, what does that do? And this is the way that I define love in the book. That love is a material

investment in one's neighbor. If that's true, one of the things that John also does there is he contrasts love with hate but also love with murder. Which is to say, for me to kill you is for me to fail to love you. Therefore, it seems to be really, really simple to me that killing someone is never an act of love for them. It doesn't, that seems really obvious to me. But then paired with that, no, but then paired with that, there's also the fact that every way that I would narrate killing someone is to narrate killing my enemy. And so then I

asked the Scriptures, well, how does Christ call me to treat my enemies? And Jesus seems to say that I should love them. But to take that to another step, Paul in Romans 12 will say, um, never seek vengeance, but always leave room for the wrath of God because vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. And then of course the priority that says if your enemy is hungry, give him something to eat. If he's thirsty, give him something to drink, which means that this command of love not only extends to the way that I ought to treat my neighbor and the way that I treat my brothers and sisters, but it also treats my enemies.

All of this cuts off the ethical option of me killing anybody, regardless. If somebody raises their hand against me to kill me, that does not give me the right to not love them. Very few of us actually think in this way because we haven't been trained to. We have not been trained to actually apply the words of Christ to every area of our lives. And so when you hear something like this, it sounds so foreign, mostly because we haven't read the Sermon on the Mountain and thought that Jesus was actually being serious. I want to, in each of those three points, and kind of the economic solidarity point, the anti-violence point, and the truth

telling point, like this isn't like extra super Christianity. Like this is basic. I use the term anti-violence because nonviolence can suggest that it's just a non-participation in violence, which is true. Like, yes. But I also want us to understand that, no, the Christian actively undermines violence wherever the Christian sees it, because we're fundamentally committed to a love of our neighbor, which is not just a not killing of my neighbor.

It's an active investment in the well-doing. It's an active investment in the well-being of my neighbor. I like that distinction. It's why I don't like to term pacifism. People say, you're a pacifist. I'm like, well, I've always said I'm a Christocentric advocate for nonviolence, but I like that. But even that does have kind of a, it could sound like removing yourself. But no, like we, I mean, Martin Luther King even said like, I'm, we should be militant towards injustice, but do so nonviolently, you know, but there's a aggressiveness to confront injustice, the means by which we don't use a violent means to do so.

Yeah. Nonviolent direct action is an extremely offensive tool. I mean, like the whole, I mean, extremely offensive tool. I mean, like, the whole, I mean, Asiel narrates, its entire purpose is to create a crisis. But this is also exactly what Jesus is narrating in the Sermon on the Mount, where he does the turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile stuff. Like all those things are actually deeply subversive ways to undermine violence. The turning the other cheek thing exposes the person who's attacking you to the rest of the world as essentially an abuser. Like they think they can get away with shaming you.

And one of the things that you do is you make them face you and attack you with the front of their hand rather than the backhand. With the Roman soldier who asks you to take his stuff a mile, well, he's only allowed by law to command you to go a mile. For you to go that extra mile, and this is a point that Walter Wink and some others make, for him to make you do that extra mile,

like he's got to ask you for his stuff back. So that gives you an opportunity to actually build a relationship with somebody who's insistent on only seeing you as someone to dominate. All these ways of undermining evil are also ways that we diffuse evil with good. And that's the primary way that Christ has called us and Paul and the rest of the scriptures. That's the way that we are called to treat evil. Never to fight fire with fire. That's not how this works. We fight with the weapon that Christ has given us and that primary weapon is the cross.

I mean, it's not only, you know, I sometimes make a distinction. I'm not trying to separate the two, but a distinction between effectiveness versus faithfulness. Nonviolence, from my reading the scriptures, sounds like yours too, is theologically faithful. And yet, pragmatically, history has shown us that it's also oftentimes a very effective tool. Like, there's a, oh, Mark, I want to say Mark Kalansky is the author. I think the book is Nonviolence, The History of a Dangerous Idea. And he's one of several authors that have documented many cases over the last hundred years or so, when evil dictators, governments, oppressive people

in power have been toppled through nonviolent action. Sometimes within a couple of weeks, when, and even there's some times when the oppressed tried violence and they just got smacked out. The government, they know how to respond to violence. They just use more power. That's their logic. You can dismantle an entire economic system within a few weeks of nonviolent action.

Or in Libya, no, Liberia, I believe it was Liberia. There's a couple of places where this happened. It's the all general already. When a lot of the women got sick and tired of all the violence and they went on sex strikes. Hey boys, hey boys, you ain't getting any until you stop killing each other. And literally though it worked. So come to an agreement. My favorite, and this is the quote that's the epitaph of the sixth chapter of the book, it comes from Antonio Gonzalez, and he says, that Christian nonviolence is not based on an ethic of respect for life or on the tactical superiority of nonviolence, but on the determination to confront evil at its very root. And that is...

Can you unpack like that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, hey, hey very root. And that is- Can you unpack, like that? Yeah, yeah, oh, hey, hey, hey. Open that up for us. I'm here to unpack. That's what, that's what, that's what, that's, that's, that's, I'm not committed to nonviolence just because I think life is great and everybody should live.

I do, I don't think that, but that's not the basis, but that's not the basis of my commitment. My basis is also not nonviolence works the best. It's not a pragmatic thing either. It's a commitment to confront evil at its very root. At its base, I do not believe that any human being that I come into contact with is my enemy because Paul tells us in Ephesians 6, we're not battling against flesh and blood. We're battling against powers and principalities. And so even if somebody comes at me and kill me, they're not the enemy, they're tools of the enemy.

They're being used by the enemy, but every human being that I come into contact with is a human being to be loved. That's a fundamental, fundamental, that ought to be a fundamental assumption. And so because of that, that then requires me to operate with a material commitment to you even if you want to kill me. Yeah, we can talk about this all we want, but only the Christian can say, like only the Christian can actually say and live in that way by the power of the Holy Spirit to do so consistently because there's a lot, there's just a lot in the world around us

that will try to convince us of things to the contrary. But if we are seeking to attack evil at its very root, that is sin, death, and the devil, there's no room for me to see another human being fundamentally as an enemy. And the thing is, even if I do, how do the scriptures tell me to treat my enemies? To feed them and to clothe them and to love them. So like, I mean, there's no, like there really is in my mind, no way to actually run from that logic without being disobedient to Christ.

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slash t i t r to start your new year off on a healthier note. I'm sure you get this question a lot. I'm sure lots of people have this question right now. So I'll just, I'll just mediate what people are thinking. Like, okay, what about, there's gotta be some exceptions to the rule. What about the killer at the door coming in to kill your family? Or, okay, I've heard people even say like, okay, I wouldn't use violence to defend myself, but I would if it was absolutely necessary to defend some other innocent person from being harmed. Do you, how do you respond to those kind of scenarios?

One of my responses is, why is your ethical imagination so stunted to the extent that you hear the words of Jesus and immediately want to consider exceptions, rather than thinking, hey, Jesus has told me to live in this way. What might it look like for me to ask the Lord, Holy Spirit, here are some difficult things that I can't conceive of, but I've heard your words. And my goal is to live a life that is obedient to you. So Lord, I need you to teach me how this is gonna work. There's a story that Wink tells in one of his books,

of a woman named Angiogorman. And she tells this story herself of a time when a man breaks into her house to sexually assault her. And she goes through the thought process of like, what do I do in this? What do I do in this situation? What do I do? And like breaks into her bedroom.

And what she does is she asks him what time it is. And he tells her like this, and like apparently like his watch is broken and like the time that he tells her is not the time that's on her clock and this starts and this starts a conversation. She's like, how did you get into my house? He's like, I broke in. She's like, I don't, how am I supposed to pay for that? That creates, this creates a problem for both of us. The story ends with him sleeping downstairs in her house, them having

breakfast the next morning, and then he leaves. When I preach this to my congregation, most of them are like, that's ridiculous. And I'm like, yeah, it does sound that way, right? Because none of us have been trained to have the basic assumption that every human being I come into contact with is a person to be loved. And it is only if that has been driven deep into our souls that we will be able to in those times of crisis respond in the way that the Holy Spirit would have us respond. So sure, like, you know, there are modes of non-lethal self-defense that I'm like, all right, you go ahead and do that,

you know, okay, cool. But the goal of each of our human interactions has to be the goal of love. It's really hard because everything around you is gonna be telling you, but like, oh, but here are some exceptions where like, you really gotta kill the guy or woman. Like this is, like that, you just like, and I want us to think about what it actually is

that prompts that kind of imagination. And I want us to think about what it actually is that prompts that kind of imagination. And I want us to think about what does it mean for the Holy Spirit to actually guide all of our thoughts such that our reactions change, our tastes change, our reactions change, all of that is what happens when the Holy Spirit does this full work of sanctification. That's what I want people to hear when we're, because this is what I get every single time. When we have like clips of sermons where I've said this on Instagram, it's like somebody will respond and say, well, what do you do if somebody breaks into sexually assault your wife? And I'm like, and my first thought is, what kind of ethical imagination hears the words of Christ and

responds in that way? It's one that's been deeply shaped by essentially a cultural violence, where we're just like, violence is just like, that's the way that we respond to violence, with violence. The way that we respond to fire is with fire. I want my imagination to be shaped by the scriptures that say that we overcome evil with good. If we're going to get creative about stuff, that's what I want us to be investing our creativity in. Yeah. It is, I mean, people, you know, you think about that scenario and it's very emotionally charged. I'm going to say something, but I've got to qualify it. You know, it's a theoretical scenario. And people are jumping in and saying, no, it happens in real life. I'm going to say something, but I've got to qualify it. It's a theoretical scenario. People are like, and people are jumping in and saying, no, it happens in real life. I'm not saying it does.

I'm saying you have created this specific scenario with certain boundaries. So in that sense, it's a theory that you're coming up with. I guess one concern I have is not that those things don't or can't happen. It's that that is how you're beginning your ethical reasoning. So my answer is, what would I do in that situation? I'd probably kill the guy and go after his family. What should I do? Oh, well, no, as a Christian, we need to spend a long conversation looking at what does the New Testament say about how followers of Jesus should confront evil? Is this person doing evil? Yes, he's doing evil. Okay, Bible talks a lot about that. Bible talks a lot about how to address that. So, I want to gather a thick,

firm New Testament vision for how followers of Jesus should confront evil and accomplish justice in the world, and then use that as some basis from which to address these, you know, really good scenarios that you're asking me to address. But just to begin there with, here's a scenario, obviously violence is the only way, therefore, I'm like, we haven't even opened the Bible yet, you know? Well, but Joshua killed a bunch of Canaanites. I'm like, all right, so I… Well, and this is, you know, I, I, I go

through this and I, and I narrate this, I narrate this in the book. It's, it's an internal thing for me too, cause I'm named after Malcolm X. And so the logic, like the, I mean the logic of arm self-defense, I'm very, very familiar with the logic of the, and like, and it's, and it, and it's a logic that just sounds very, very reasonable to us. You hear, you, you hear Malcolm, and they're awesome. They're awesome because they get at the part of you that's like, look, the way that I protect my dignity and the dignity of those around me is I defend it with arms if I've got to. And Malcolm also said, like, this whole turn the other cheek business, it's garbage.

It doesn't make any sense. We want that old time religion, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that's what's up. And I'm like, and I get it, I get it, I get it. I get it. But like, but that's just not, that's not the logic of the gospel. The logic of an eye for an eye would be

Jesus up on the cross is like, I don't need to be here. I can call down the legions of angels. Let me do that because this is evil and I can, and I got good, the stuff I got angels. Let me do that because this is evil and I can and I got good the stuff I got stuff. I got in my back pocket I can I can I can call it down at any moment and he but he does not do that And he then tells us hey, if you want to be my disciple You got to take up your cross and come with me

And we're just like but like but but can I take a sword too, just in case somebody attacks me on the way? He's like, actually take, the cross is gonna be heavy enough. You're not gonna have energy to carry all this stuff. Yeah, you can carry the cross and a sword and your AK. That's a lot, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot of bagging.

It's gonna be a long trip. Yeah, yeah, and so, so yeah, so So, yeah, but the other point is like, we're only gonna think in that way if we train, if we train to think in that way. And I think about this, the anti-greed stuff, because it operates so invisibly for most of us, we are essentially unprotected. We don't listen to Paul say that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, but also that those who want to get rich also fall into a trap and a snare like we think that the design like we think that the that the desire is something that we can play around with because oh Well, I want to get rich because that'll allow me to give more

It's like yeah You you you think pretty highly of yourself if you think that you're just gonna be able to amass in a mass and that's just Gonna make you more generous. That's not the way that mammon works. Who wants you to think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, just play some games with me. You can have all, you can have all this stuff and don't worry, you're just going to be really generous. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, we'll see how that works. You'll get a taste for it and you'll notice more and more and more and more. It's one of the reasons why we're told in the scripture to flee from two kinds of sin. We're told we're told to flee from sexual sin, but also to flee from greed. That's in 1st David v. 6. Right after he says the love of money is the root of all all kinds of evil.

He says, man of God flee from these things. Run from it. These are the kinds of realities that we come up against when we play games with this kind of stuff. So I want the people of God to understand that there are some things that you have not been trained to flee from, and we need to figure out what that flight looks like. And part of that is the solidarity point that when we understand that everything that we have is meant to be shared, it's a way that inoculates us against the constant temptation to hoard. Well, okay, so it sounded like you were challenging a Christian that is trying to, I want to make a lot of money, even if the motives are so that I can give, you're giving some

speed bumps on that logic. What about somebody who their motivation is not, I want to get lots of money, but they just happen to be, you know, a really good used car salesman or a successful surgeon and they end up making a lot of wealth. It wasn't our intention, they're just, we're blessed with this. Would you see those just two different scenarios? And in that case, what do you say to the well-intended, wealthy Christian? So, I want to say what Paul says to the rich in 1 Timothy 6. 1 Timothy 6 is just a great chapter for the rich, specifically. People hear it talked about a lot. People don't

know what 1 Timothy 6 is about. No, you don't. People don't. Okay, so, but what he says in 6 17, command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Now, the tendency, especially for a lot of rich Americans, is going to be like, great. All this means is that I don't think about my money in a particular way. This is also a misinterpretation of Christ's conversation with the rich young ruler, which I also talk about in the book. So Paul goes on

Command them to command them to do good to be rich in good deeds and to be generous and willing to share in this way They will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age So that they may take hold of the life that is truly that is truly life So what he's also doing he is parroting the words of Jesus with this whole laying up treasure thing, because Jesus also has something to say about where you lay up treasure. Where in Matthew, there's just this contrast between, you know, laying up your treasure where moth can, where moth and rust can eat it and all that kind of stuff, instead of lay up your treasures in heaven where those things can't happen. In Matthew, we're not exactly told exactly what that means, but he does tell us in Luke.

In Luke 12, he tells us, sell your possessions and give to the poor. That's what it means to lay up. That's what it means to lay up treasure in heaven. Now, that doesn't mean that you've got to sell everything that you have. The rich young ruler definitely was told to sell everything that he had. But the Christian, just the regular practice of the Christian is to regularly be acting in solidarity with the poor, to regularly be looking to ways, how can I share the things that I have? Because as John Chrysostom will say, the only reason why the Lord gives us excess is in order to share with those in need.

So when I've got extra clothes, money, time, all that kind of stuff, there is somebody in my midst who needs those things. Because it might be extra for me, but somebody around me needs it. And the only reason the Lord has given it to me is so that I can share it. Only reason the Lord gives any of us any kind of authority or whatever is specifically to mobilize it on behalf of those who need it. So, this isn't just a money thing. It's any kind of… It applies broadly to any kind of wealth. It applies to cultural wealth. It applies to any political power you're given. It applies to economic wealth. It applies to all of those

things. The only reason why any of it is ever possessed by the Christian in excess of what they need is specifically for those who do need it. And this comes back to a Christological point for me, which I also narrate in the book. Because the incarnation, we think about Philippians, too, as a narration of kind of Christ's humility, contra-pride. One of the things that I want to narrate it as is also Christ's generosity contra-greed. Because what we're told there is that he doesn't see equality with God as a thing to be kind of selfishly held onto, but instead he takes on the form of a servant. Which indicates to me that part of the incarnation, and this is something I also take from the Greek Church Fathers, part of the incarnation is the Son

of God becomes man so that in order to share everything that he has with us. Absolutely, like I need people to understand it. There's one thing I want people to understand is that I want people to understand how insane that is and also what it is that Christ has chosen to share with us. So I just preach this on Jesus' words to the church at Laodicea where he says to the one who overcomes, I will give to them to sit with me on my throne just as when I overcame, I sat with my father on his throne. Which is to say that Christ takes on flesh and lives and dies and is raised in order to share literally everything that he has with us. The way that it, essentially, the way that it came to me is that the only way, when we see the fullness of our redemption,

the only way for us to be closer to the Lord would be if we were members of the Trinity. Because he invites us, he invites us not just to sit on thrones like next to him, he invites us to sit on his throne with him. That's what union with Christ, like that's the reality that union with Christ points to. And this is why the church allowed to see it makes him nauseous. So he says, I'll vomit you out of my mouth because you're lukewarm. It's because all of the focus on glittery earthly wealth, whether it's cultural wealth, political wealth, financial wealth, whatever, all of that, all that dulls your appetite for what it is that Christ has actually prepared for you. Greed is, like, it's why greed is so infuriating, I think, to the Lord, because

it's like you are, you are focusing on all this other stuff that's not the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And so you're settling, you're settling for so little. And so you're, you're settling, you're settling and Christ has so much more. And so like I say, it comes, it comes down to a particular understanding of the incarnation, like Christ took on flesh, specifically as an act of sharing of sharing with us. He's like, I created you for this reality. I created you for this deep, deep intimacy. Yes, you like, sure, you rejected it. I'm taking you though.

Like you are, I will usher you into this reality through repentance and belief. I will bestow these clothes of righteousness on you. I'm gonna put you on the throne right next to me. Like we're hanging out for the rest of eternity. We get to rule the new heavens and the new earth together. Why would you think that any future that you can conceive of is not going to be better than that? Here's how you get there. When you're talking, maybe 2 Corinthians 8-9, that long giving passage is all rooted in

the sharing of Christ. That's exactly what it is. I don't think what you're saying, yeah. Which is chapter... That is chapter six is about... Or no, five, half of it. Half of it is specifically a reflection on 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 and that whole conversation between Macedonia and Corinth.

That's the basis for what I call a mimicking of divine philanthropy. Because when we think about philanthropy, we think about the Carnegie's and the billionaires and all this kind of stuff when we're looking at a giving that really amasses all these benefits for me but kind of leaves you where you are. And that's not the way that Christ gave to us. He became one of us in order to bring us up to where He is. And that then ought to frame the way that we think about giving in our Christian communities, their acts of solidarity, ways that actually bring us together rather than things that continue to keep us apart. I want you to address the question you raised on page 105. Is this just Marxism in disguise? Are you? Malcolm, Malcolm, I think you're going woke.

No, no, I'm just a socialist. There's a difference. But one of the things that I want to, one of the things, and I say this and that in those paragraphs, I'm like, look, Marx as an economist, it's very good things to say about the way that the world works, the way that capitalism as a political economy works. I think it's also important to recognize that Marx does not have a monopoly on socialist or communalist economies or just economies that are rooted in the meeting of human need rather than just the worship of greed. And so, as a matter of fact, in Cedric Robinson has a book called The Anthropology of Marxism, where he lays out the history of the fact that actually

Christians are doing communalist economies before Marx is even, you know, an idea. And so one of the things that I want to remind people is that, so like my own anti-capitalist stance doesn't come from Marx, it comes from Jesus. Being anti-exploitation is a Jesus thing, not a Marx thing. It's a Bible thing. You look throughout the Bible and you see the fact that most of riches, we won't say about all of it, but the vast majority of it comes on the backs of the poor. And that's something that makes the Lord really, really angry. It's one of the things that makes the prophets most angry, makes Jesus angry, makes James angry, makes Paul angry, makes them all angry. And for us, it's just like, it's just an everyday

occurrence that we're just like, well, that's just the way things work. I'm like, it makes the Lord angry. So, you know, I want people to understand that, you know, I don't get this. Like I said, I don't get it from Mark. Mark has some great stuff. I read through, look, I got capital right here. I mean, the remedy, but the remedy comes from, like I said, the remedy comes from Jesus. Like we're called to build, you know, we're called, like I said, to build these communities of deep economic solidarity because it bears witness to the world that there's another way, that there's another way of living. We're told that neoliberal capitalism is all that there is, and it's regnant around the world, and that's just all there is. And it's regnant around the world and that's just all there is. And one of the things

I want to tell the church is like, look, you don't have to feel the pressure of trying to overthrow a world economy. You're not going to do it. You're not going to do it. But that's also not what Christ has called you to do. Christ has not called you to save the world. He's already done it. And so what your call is to do is to live as an outpost of the kingdom of God to show the world, to not only show the world the way that life ought to be, but to invite them into it. It's why God, it's why God called Israel as an invitation to the world. It's why God called the church as an invitation to the world, not a judgment on it. We have this opportunity to show people, look, this is what a Holy Spirit fueled life looks like. And people

are going to see it. If they see it, they're going to see that it's weird, but they're going to see that it's awesome. And they're going to think, hey, how do we get in? How do we get in on that? To which we respond, repent, believe. Like those are the kinds of Christian communities that I hope that this book will insight. Geez, Malcolm, you like summarize my book, Exiles, in 30 seconds. I am not an economist, so I have never read Marx. I've got a good friend of mine, Ed Yuzinski, who's read everything in my Marx. So, I gather bits and pieces. It seems like the big difference is not that there are some shared principles between Marx and Christianity. It seems like the big difference is the economic principles in Marx ultimately end up being part of the empire where you have people in power that

are in charge of distributing the money, and that's never going to work. It's always going to end up the way it has ended up in all the, I think every single country that has tried it out, you got people in power doing this and the principles end up collapsing, but it's not because the principles are wrong. It's because it's a Chrysler's spirit list attempt to do this. Is that, that's the other thing. Like people think that, attempt to do this? That's the other thing. People think that because I'm anti-capitalist, that that means that I'm for a planned economy where the government runs all this stuff. Because one of the other things is that our ethical and economic imagination is stilted in the sense that we think those are the only two options for an economy. My thing is actually,

we can think of some other ways. We can be creative people. I want to expect more of my brothers and sisters. I want us to understand the ways in which blinders have been placed on us. For me, those blinders have been placed on us by mammon. So it's one of the ways that our current political economy disciplines us. It disciplines us by telling us this is the only way that things work. This is the only way that things could

possibly work. It's, you know, we've got to make the concessions to greed that we do. You know, we've always got to choose between evil options. And my thing is like, look, look, look, look. Or we can seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness in all of our lives. And if we can't figure out how, we ask the Lord, Lord, how can I do this? Because literally the only thing that matters for me is that I seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness because all the things that I do, what Jesus promises, is that if we do those things, all the things that we need will be added to us. And my thing is like, I want us to believe Jesus when He says stuff.

At base, like at base, that's all I want, Preston. All I want is for us to believe Jesus when He says stuff. Because I don't do it. I'm not saying that I perfectly do it all the time. I'm just saying that that's what I need to hear, too. I need to hear, look, when Jesus tells me to do stuff, He actually does expect me to do those things. And He's given me the resources to actually do those things. And I want Christians to actually believe that. I've got a couple of questions from my patrons here. I want to ask a question, then I've got to go to a couple of the... Yeah, they're really good questions.

My question, I want to follow up with the question I asked you at the conference last, last October, and it had to do with... Let's see if I can do it in a concise way. Well, it's drawn from that book, When Helping Hurts. I'm convinced, they really convinced me that you can sometimes do more damage by simply giving somebody a handout charity when they need, I think even said like rehabilitation, they need a job, not a handout, or they need maybe something more psychological. Maybe they're poor because of issues of shame and whatever.

There might be complex factors. If you just give somebody a handout, it actually could keep enabling them to stay in this perpetual cycle of needing handouts. Yeah, help me think through that. Do you agree with that concern? Is that different than what you're talking about? Because I also, just one more thing, I also think like, are there differences between the poor, like in the first century, versus poor in a economically flourishing society like America today. Like what I, this might be, is this gonna be offensive? I travel a lot to countries

and I often go to like majority world countries and you don't, you see, when you see poor people they clearly have a calorie deficit. Yeah, yeah. There's no such thing as somebody who is on the streets or poor, showing signs that they have access to lots of food. Whereas a lot of times it's kind of the opposite in the society today. So somebody in another country, in another economic situation, they might need a meal like now. Like this is a desperate, where somebody in, maybe in America, that might not be

their greatest need, right? There might be some other things that this person might not need. So, are there different kinds of poverty that need a different means of helping them, if that makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. So, I think for us, it is most often the case that when we come into contact with that kind of logic and those kinds of questions, the effect of it will often not bring us closer to the poor but farther away from them. It can be an excuse to say, all right. It's an excuse. That's the way that we most often use it because I think the broader issue is that we are encouraged

and this is the other thing, we are encouraged by the assumptions of our political economy to default to judgment rather than defaulting to mercy. Because neoliberal capitalism tells us we are in a society, especially in a country where everybody has the opportunity to get rich. If you're not, that's probably your fault. You've probably done something. So that then removes my responsibility to come alongside you because the fact of the matter is that it's probably because you're lazy. You've mismanaged and that's your fault. So you're now you're not suffering the consequences of what you've done.

My thing is like, actually build a relationship with somebody before you make those kinds of judgments. Default to mercy. Default to if somebody asked, or as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, somebody asks something from you, give it to them. The Lord will deal with whether that person is lying to you or exploiting you or whatever, but for you, the kind of person that you need to be is a person who defaults to mercy rather than defaulting to judgment. Because like you, the Lord is going to provide for you everything that you need. Even if somebody, and this is, I said this at conference, the risk of someone who is genuinely hungry coming to me asking for food for me and me denying

them, the risk of that to me and to my soul is higher than the risk of that person exploiting me. If that person exploits me, okay, cool. The Lord will deal with them. But for me, my default has to be mercy because that's what Christ called me to that also means like I actually got to build Relations like I actually got to build relationships with folks I see the same person on the same corner day after day after day after day Lord tells him to Matthew 25 is like sometimes we're seeing him Like when we when we feed the hungry and the thirsty and the prisoner and all that kind of stuff We're feeding like that that ought to tell me wait a minute

Maybe I need to like maybe I need to stop, spend a minute or two of my time and get to know somebody as opposed to just thinking, well, this person is here because of something they've done or whatever. That's the way that our particular political economy tells us to think about each other. And I want us to be intentional about having the gospel reshape the way that we see our brothers and sisters and neighbors. I was going to say, use the phrase relational proximity with the poetic. That's massive. Because solidarity, I mean, real solidarity doesn't happen without that proximity, because that example of solidarity is Jesus's example. The incarnation is not him like giving to us from afar. Like he literally becomes a poor Jewish man. He walks around with folks

and touches folks and heals them and eats with them. And like, like, like that's what he, I mean, I just, it just seems really obvious to me that like that's what we're supposed to do too. So these are ways that I have to grow. These are ways that I encourage my brothers and sisters at Mosaic, the church that I co-pastored, the way that I encourage us to grow because that's the only way, the only way that our priorities and things are actually gonna change

if those relationships of proximity exist. And this is not, you know, and I do my dig at racial reconciliation and to the end of the book because we just kind of think of it. This is all just solved by relationships. And I'm like, but see the purpose of that is this deep solidarity,

not just me being able to say, like I love black people, but I have to get my best friends black, all this kind of stuff. Like that's how it's about. That's how I like. I have a black friend. Yeah.

I'm not racist. But the issue is not just the friends that you have. The issue is the actual distribution of your material resources, which includes your time, it includes your talent, it includes your money. All of those things, insofar as we have extra, is met for the meeting. All right. Here's a question. This is kind of on that note. What's the best modern-day example of Christian communities practicing this anti-greed philosophy? Or maybe you co-pastored a church called Mosaic. What does the anti-greed gospel look like in your church community? Yeah, so part of it, and this is one of the things I say in the book, it's going to look different

wherever you are, but it means when you look at church budgets, are there ways that you are working towards like a majority of it being for the needy? When you, when you think about, because I mean, I think I tell the church, I think about the church fundamentally as a redistributive entity. When you give to the church, you're not just giving to a particular pastor's salary or whatever. This is one of the reasons why I'm bivocational is because I don't wanna be a significant financial drain

on the church. I want them to, I want when they give for it to be, for it to be something that they're giving not only to one another, but also to the needy in our midst. And so, there's that. There's also, sometimes, like like we don't like to talk about money just in general. And so part of it begins with like, is there another family at the church where you can like have actual conversations about your finances and what you might need

and where your priorities are and those kinds of things. Sometimes it starts just by breaking that ice. But another element is we are, I think, constantly told that the goal is for us to be self-sufficient and to have no need. That is also the description of Laodicea that makes them spiritually useless. And so like so part of it is also like telling my congregation, look, when you need something, tell the church because the purpose of this community is to come alongside you when you have need. And the more that you deny your brothers and sisters the opportunity to love you by refusing to narrate your own need? Like that doesn't do anybody any good. You're denying them opportunities to love you. And so part of it is an encouragement

of like give your brothers and sisters opportunities to love you and recognize that they have things that you need to grow in Christ like this and you have things that they need in order to grow in Christ like this. Because Christ has called us to lives of deep, healthy interdependence. Or as John Stott says in his book, The Radical Disciple, he says, we're called the lives of mutual burdensomeness. That's so cool. That, you know, a lot of us kind of get really embarrassed about being burdens to each other and he's using the example of like, people are like, yeah, when I get old and I'm a burden to everybody around me, I'd rather just die. He's like, why? The whole purpose of your life is to be a burden

to your family. We're all burdens to each other. That's what Christ called us to be. We bear one another's burdens. That's what the game is. You mentioned earlier about a good portion or at least of the money that comes in is to go out and help people in the community. We often call that a benevolence, right? We have a benevolence fund. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the benevolence fund is usually less than 5%, less than 1%. I want it bigger than that. Yeah. I want it like... You don't need to reveal your budget, but is that... Do you have... Like, is there like a... We're working on it, man. This is the hard thing. But also, I think, whenever you

make big financial decisions, like as a church, I want us to understand that our fundamental commitment, this goes back to the axe thing, like churches ought to be seeking to build particularly for the, I mean, beginning in the community, beginning in the gathered community, building communities without need. So like, I want there to be like these churches where the membership knows if we come to the church about a need, the expectation is that they're going to come alongside us. That's just the normal day-to-day stuff. That's the basis. You work on it at that level.

Then you think about what might it look like for us to extend these relationships to other churches in our area too? Such that it's a Corinth Macedonia thing. We've got things you need, you've got things we need. How does that bind us together? All of these things form a particular witness to the broader communities that we find ourselves in. Because we were like, goodness gracious, whatever's being preached or practiced in this community, like that, it's actually leading to material,

emotional, spiritual wellbeing. Like what? I've been looking for that. And this, I mean, it's one of the things that was most attractive about the early church is that it's bringing in all of these people who've been outcasted in a number of different ways, because this is a community that is fundamentally rooted in Christ has lavished upon us His gifts. We just need to share them. And when we do that, everybody wins. And in a world that constantly

presses scarcity on us as though we need to scrimmage crap for every little thing, God gives us this community. There's the last thing, because I know we might be coming up on time. Christ says that no one who gives up father, mother, all this kind of stuff, that you regain all those things hundredfold in this life and persecution and then eternal life in the life to come, which is to say, like, anything that you give up, you regain because you join a community. And when you join that community, you gain the resources of that community. You don't have to live a life where, like, I'm the only one who cares about my family. I'm the only one who can provide for my family.

So if I lose my job, everything falls apart. So I have to do whatever it takes to keep this job, even if it means that I need to continue to exploit my neighbor, even if it means that I need to continue to lie, that I need to continue to cheat, and to steal. The only way for me to provide for my family is if I'm here. And the gospel comes in and says, actually, there are other people who care about you and your family. I've got those people right here. It's why in the early church they made this statement about, like, you've got to leave the military.

There were people who had their lives that revolved around the military. And what the church said is, yeah, I mean, the only way for you to be one of us is if you leave that. But if you leave it, you are leaving and joining a community that has promised to fill that gap for you. Like, until we can be communities that can make those kinds of promises to one another, that's where people can see the kind of material benefit of union with Christ. That it's not just a spiritual thing about the way that we feel and the way that we think about

ourselves and stuff like that. Like, it actually shapes the material positions of the people of God, too, when we become people who fundamentally see everything that the Lord has given us as something to be shared. Good, man. I got one more quick question from a follower here. I'll be brief. Okay, okay, okay. So, what Wes wants to know has to do with Acts 2. So, going back to what you were just talking about, what is the nature of the connection between the call to share resources and the things listed in Acts 2.42? namely, the other apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread into prayer.

Would you say these things, like economic sharing flows out of these things or is part of these things? I think you mentioned that the koinonia, so apostles teaching and fellowship, that that word fellowship, koinonia in the fellowship, that's not just having conversations over coffee. No, fellowship is the sharing of goods. That is what koinonia is, yes. Well, and that goes into Acts 4, right, when they have a similar passage where there it is explicitly right about the sharing of goods. That's what it is. So, like that, that's what it is. So, like that's what that is. So, of those four things, that's what koinonia is. Because what we call fellowship, I mean, it's sharing. And the text says, like, what is being shared, if that they have everything in common, and they sell property and possessions

and give to anyone who has need. We detached fellowship from its material meaning. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And this is my whole thing, even about the anti-Greek gospel, is that we have detached the conversation about race from its material origins, and in many ways have detached our faith from its material consequences. And so, one of the things that I want to constantly drive people back to is that even all of the primary acts of love that God has enacted on behalf of His people are material acts. Their liberation from Egypt, the incarnation, the resurrection, the second coming, all of these are things that are deeply material realities, which is to say our faith is a deeply material faith that requires some

material commitments to each other. Malcolm, we can keep going, but I've got to let you go. Man, this has been so fun. So, Antigreed Gospel, what day does it release? I'm going to, this podcast should be February 11th. Okay, so it'll probably be in a couple days from when people are listening to this, just so they can pre-order it. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm a little excited. I won't lie to see how people react to it. Me too. You will have, I'm sure an array of responses, but man, I'm halfway through the book and it is very engaging and challenging for sure, but also

just very informed. Yeah, I've learned a lot. Your section on the lynching was just harrowing, was disturbing in all the right ways. I'm glad you didn't pull back. I'm glad you didn't pull back, I'm glad you didn't soften that section at all. It's, I mean, it's unbelievable, but that was a hundred years ago, less than a hundred years ago, it's crazy.

So thank you, Malcolm. Where can people find you? You got a website or? Yeah, so right now it'll be, it's either Twitter, Blue Sky, or Instagram. And then, yeah, and I do a podcast with my co-pastor called Theology in Pieces. But yeah, those are the places to find me right now. But I'd say, you know, order the book, be radicalized by it, but radicalized for Jesus.

Because that's the way it's literally matters. Have a good one, Malcolm. Really appreciate the conversation. Thanks, Preston. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors and all high performers in all types of different fields of how

they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state, and just dominate all these different areas of high performance. So on this season, my good friend Dr. Daniel Lehmann will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas, and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up, the doctor and the nurse on The David Nurse Show coming at you. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus Podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own?

The Hearing Jesus Podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day, and together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus Podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.