Theology in the Raw - Hearing the Voice of the Martyrs: Todd Nettleton

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Join the Theology in the Raw community for as little as $5/month to get access to premium content. Todd Nettleton is the Vice President of Message for The Voice of the Martyrs–USA and host of The Voice of the Martyrs Radio. He serves as a voice for persecuted Christians, inspiring Christians with the faithfulness of Christ’s followers in 70+ nations where they face persecution for wearing His name. During more than 25 years serving at VOM, Todd has traveled the world and conducted face-to-face interviews with hundreds of Christians who’ve endured persecution in more than 30 nations. Check out his book When Faith Is Forbidden: 40 Days on the Frontlines with Persecuted Christians (Moody 2021)See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We in America hear a gospel of come to Jesus and he'll make your life here on earth better. That is not actually the gospel that's in the Bible. In fact, Jesus said the world hates me. And if you follow me, the world will hate you too. We need to not be surprised that followers of Jesus are hated by the world. That's exactly what Jesus said would happen. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theologian Rom. My guest today is Todd Nettleton.

is the vice president of message for Voice of the Martyrs USA and the host of the Voice of the Martyrs radio. He serves as a voice for persecuted Christians, inspiring Christians with the faithfulness of Christ's followers in 70 plus nations where they face persecution for wearing his name. He's been with Voice of the Martyrs for more than 25 years and he's traveled the world and conducted face-to-face interviews with hundreds of Christians who've endured persecution in more than 30 nations. I would highly encourage him. I would highly encourage I heard you to check out his book, When Faith is Forbidden, 40 Days on the Frontlines with persecuted Christians. I really enjoyed this conversation with Todd, loved his heart, and he just,

gosh, the stories he tells, especially towards the end of this podcast, are pretty challenging, heartbreaking, convicting, challenging, all the above. So, yeah, can't wait for you to listen to this conversation with Todd Nettleton. Please welcome him to the show for the first. time. I'm all out of order my intro here. Todd Nettleton, folks. He's coming on for the first time. Theology in Iraq. Todd, thanks so much for coming on Theology and Rahm. I'm really excited about this conversation. I've been aware of and a fan from a distance of Voice of the Martyrs for ever since I became a Christian. I mean, it was just kind of the name has been there in evangelical churches for the most part. What is Voice of the Martyrs? And what exactly do you guys?

do? Because I know I have a general awareness, but I don't know if I could articulate like exactly what you guys do in terms of your ministry. The word picture I like to use is a bridge. So Voice of the Martyrs is a bridge between Christians in hostile areas and restricted nations, places where they are persecuted for wearing the name of Christ, and Christians in free nations like the United States. So the traffic on a bridge goes both ways, right? So into those countries, we carry aid and encouragement and help for Christians who are being persecuted. And coming out of those countries, we bring the stories of their faithfulness, but more importantly, the faithfulness of God.

And one of the kind of unique things about the DNA of the Voice of the Martyrs is our founders were persecuted Christians. Pastor Richard Wormbrand spent 14 years in prison in Communist Romania. His wife spent three years in prison herself. And so when they came to the West, and it's a fascinating story, but before they left Romania, and they were actually ransomed out of the country, like people paid a bounty to the Romanian government, the communist government there, to get them out of the country. And before they left, the secret police took them aside and said, okay, Pastor Wormand, you're going to the West. You can talk about the Bible all you want. You can talk about God all you want, but don't talk about what we did to you. Don't talk about

the torture. Don't talk about the prisons. Don't tell all the evils that you've endured. and Pastor Wormand came to the West and did exactly what they told him not to do. He said, you know, yeah, I was in solitary for three straight years. Yeah, they beat the bottom of my feet so severely that for the rest of his life, he could hardly stand up for any length of time. But more importantly, he said there are still pastors in those prisons. Hey, I'm here. I'm a voice for them, but there are still pastors in those prisons behind the Iron Curtain.

And, you know, Christians like you and me, we hear that and we're like, well, if there's pastors in prison, how are we going to help them? them. That really is how the voice of the martyrs was founded, was to be an answer to that question. How are we going to help those pastors? How are we going to get word to them, encouragement to them, help to their families? That's the genesis of the voice of the martyrs. I often hear that there's more Christian martyrs maybe today or in the last, you know, or the 20th century than ever before. Is that generally true? Like, are there Christian martyrs like all over the place? I mean, this is happening a lot?

There are, the stat that I've heard that I think is accurate is there have been more people who have died for Christ in the last hundred years than in all of Christian history before that. And I do think that's true. There is a hard side to that, which is there is a lot of suffering among our fellow Christians right now. There's also a good side to that story, though. Part of the reason that there's more persecution is there's more Christians. There's more Christians in North Africa. There's more Christians in Iran. There's more Christians in China. And so when Christians are being persecuted, there are more potential targets to suffer that persecution because the church has grown, because the gospel has spread. So that's sort of the good news part of that story.

But obviously, that comes with the caveat that, boy, a lot of our brothers and sisters are going through very, very difficult circumstances in order to follow Jesus. what are some of the main hot spots you mentioned north africa is that one of them and i ran and uh you know it's it's hard to say well you know what is the worst place in the world to be a christian well you know jesus is with you it's not the worst place anymore right so that that's the hard thing to kind of quantify i think when you talk about the hardest places you have to mention north korea um north korea i the description i like is north korea is a prison camp disguised as a country. Everyone there is oppressed. Everyone there is, is, is under the thumb of the regime,

but Christians are singled out for the very worst treatment. And why is that? Well, the North Korean regime is built on the idea that the Kim family are divine beings. Literally kindergartners are taught when they sit down to a meal to say, thank you, Father Kim Il-sung, for our food. And so if I come along and say, well, actually, I don't follow the Kim family. I follow Jesus, it's not just a matter of, oh, that's a Western religion or, oh, we don't really believe that here. That's treason. Like you're saying the government is lying that the Kim family is divine. You're praying to someone else. That's treason. And so the government, they have to cut off the gospel because it's a direct threat to the regime. It's a direct threat to what they're

telling the people. So, you know, I think about North Korea, definitely near the top of that list. Real quick, how many, I mean, are we talking a few hundred Christians, a few thousand? I mean, there can't be many. Several thousand. I don't know an exact number, and I don't want to pin myself to one, but thousands. There are thousands of followers of Jesus, and some of them, their families at least, date back to before the communist takeover. And they have managed to keep the gospel and to share it with the next generation since that takeover happened. But another thing that's happening, North Korean defectors.

most of them have some contact back into North Korea, even though they've defected to China, they've defected to South Korea. They have some contact back in. And so some of them are being reached with the gospel, and they can then share it back into the country through their contact with relatives, contact with family.

So the gospel is still spreading. But like I say, that is a direct threat to the Kim regime. They see that as a political threat to them. And so when you are found to be a Christian in North Korea, not only do you go to a prison camp, your children and your parents also go with you. Because the regime thinks if we get three generations in the camp, we can cut this off. We can keep it from spreading. And so they literally will lock up three generations to keep the gospel from going forward. Wow.

Jeez. That's almost, it sounds like first century stuff, like when Paul goes into Thessalonica, preaches the gospel. and they're like, you're defying the decrees of Caesar saying just another Lord Jesus, where they interpreted the gospel's singular allegiance claim. We give our allegiance to Jesus as an affront on Caesar. I wish more Americans would take note. Anyway, we don't need to get too political, but that's really fascinating. You're going to step on some toes now.

Well, yeah, people are used to it. Wow. Okay, so North Korea, what are, yeah, other ones that stand? I would definitely talk about China in that. conversation. China in particularly since 2018 has really tightened the regulations against the church, against Christians, against Bibles. Xi Jinping, the president of China, before he was president of China, was the leader of a province. And when I came to VOM now more than 25 years ago, we used to talk about persecution in China and we would very much talk about it by province.

You know, hey, in this province, there's a lot of persecution. Boy, they're really cracking down on the church. But if you look over in this province, the church is operating without a lot of pressure, without a lot of interference. Well, one of those provinces where there was a lot of persecution was the one Xi Jinping was in charge of. And so now he's the president of the whole country. And honestly, I think he sees that as part of his success story. Like I crack down on illegal religion. And look, I got promoted. I'm the president of the whole country. country now. And so that's part of his sort of recipe for success. And he has brought that to the national government. We have heard stories from Chinese Christians of Beijing sending out trainers to go out to local police offices and give them training on managing religion. This is how you do it. And what that means is if people aren't going to bend the knee to the Communist Party, we're going to lock them in prison and we're going to beat them up. And there's going to be a price to be paid by them. So I definitely think of China. I think of Iran, go ahead.

So China, just to point out, does it have the kind of political connotations that North Korea does, that being a Christian was an affront on the political regime? Or is it not as it is? It is not to the same level because the Chinese government doesn't present itself as a spiritual entity. Right. So there is that. But the Chinese Communist Party, as a Chinese citizen, they want you to wake up every morning and think, how can I be a good communist? today. What can I do to serve the interests of the party today? And as Christians, hopefully we wake up every morning and think, how could I serve Jesus today? What can I do to spread his kingdom

today? And so that means I'm not putting my first loyalty, my first priority, my first priority on the Communist Party. And so they definitely see it as a threat. I might use the word distraction. Like this is a distraction for the people. It takes them away from serving the interests of the Communist Party. But they don't, it doesn't have the same spiritual connotations because they're not presenting themselves as a sort of spiritual entity. Okay. Interesting. Okay. All right, you were going to, was it Iran? Yeah, I think Iran would be, Iran has, some people say over a million Christians. It's, you know, I don't know the exact number, but it has a large Christian population, and that is coming with a price. And one of the fun things about talking about the

spread of the gospel in Iran is the role that the government has played in that spread. So I've had Iranian Christians who point to Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of the Islamic Revolution, and they say, that guy was the greatest Christian missionary in the history of Iran. And you're like, but he was a Muslim. Like, what are you saying? And what they are saying is that guy led the Islamic Revolution for the last 1979, 45 plus years, the government of Iran has said, we are doing everything. We're making every decision according to the Quran. We want to run our country as if Muhammad himself was running it. And 45 years later, you have an economy that's in shambles. You have one of the highest drug addiction rates in the world. You have a

people who are very dissatisfied, and they are looking at this and say, well, if this is what Islam leads to, if this is what happens when you do things the Islamic way, we want to do something else. This isn't really working for us. And so into that sort of fertile soil, then you have gospel seeds being planted. You have satellite television. You have internet ministry. You have the church in Iran that is sharing the gospel. And people are like, man, I want to try something different. That sounds great. I'll at least try Jesus. And God is moving in some amazing ways in Iran. But again, it's coming with a price. So the government sees this as a threat. They have done everything they can to control the spread of the gospel, to control the growth of churches. And they have closed down

all of the churches in the country that are above ground, Farsi-speaking churches. So Farsi is the national language of Iran, they will not allow an above-ground church to speak Farsi in their services because they think then people are going to go in. They're going to hear the gospel. So if you have, like, ethnic Armenians are seen to be Christian, traditionally Christian. And so you can have a Bible in Armenian, but you can't have a Bible in Farsi. You can hold some type of prayer service in Armenian. You can't do that in Farsi. And so that Iran definitely, the other places I would. point two, I think are on the continent of Africa. I think of Somalia, a place where al-Shabaab,

the Islamist terrorist group, has literally hunted for Christians. Like they have gone places where there is a history of Christian missionary activity and they have looked around to try to find all the Christians. Northern Nigeria, certainly something that's been talked about in the last few weeks, a place where Christians are definitely suffering at the hands of Boko Haram, at the hands of ISIS, West Africa. Even down into northern Mozambique, there are attacks. There's an ISIS affiliated group there that is actively targeting Christians. So on the continent of Africa, we see a lot of hotspots where Christians are being targeted. And some of the attacks are incredibly brutal. There's been a couple of attacks in the Democratic Republic of the Congo this

year where dozens of people were beheaded in the same attack in a church. And it is just like the level of violence is just off the charts in some of those attacks that we see on the African continent. The Bible Recap has helped millions know and understand God more deeply through his word and now conveniently set within a chronological ESV Bible for a two-in-one reading experience is the Bible Recap 365-day Chronological Study Bible. This beautifully designed study Bible features 365 scripture readings in chronological order, daily reflections on God's character and faithfulness, and insightful, easy to understand yet very thoughtful recaps. This year-long adventure through scripture will help you read, understand, and love the Bible and the God who wrote it.

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So, some Iran, what would be the motivation in Iran? Is it like you're stealing people away? Well, okay, so I guess if they want every, the whole country to be Muslim, then any departure from that, whether it's becoming Mormon or Hindu or whatever, it's not really. And it is the Islamic Republic of Iran. So they want you to be a Muslim. And in their minds, if you are ethnically Persian, you are a Muslim. Like, there's, Islam has, Islam in many cases is hereditary. If your dad was a Muslim, then you're a Muslim. And it's interesting, there were two young ladies who were arrested in Iran. This has now been more than 10 years ago. But one of the things they said in their trial was, well, we were not Muslims.

We didn't choose to be Muslim. So when we chose to follow Jesus, it wasn't apostasy because we weren't Muslims at in the first place. And the judge is like, well, your dad was a Muslim. You were a Muslim. Like, you know, don't try to tell me that's not a choice thing. That's a matter of, hey, you were born into this. And that's something you carry with you. So that is, that's one of the challenges in some of these countries. I was in Malaysia earlier this year. And one of the challenges for Malaysian Muslims who become Christians is a national ID card. Everybody's ID card says Muslim or non-Muslim. And if your dad was Muslim, your ID card says Muslim. And boy, if you try to change

that, we did a VM radio interview with one guy who's been in court for seven years trying to get the courts to say, okay, you're not a Muslim anymore. Fine, you can get a new ID card. And, you know, and I asked him the question, like, why not just go on with your life? Like, why fight in the court for seven years? Well, he married a Christian woman. Well, that's illegal. So the government does not recognize their marriage, therefore their child is illegitimate. So when it comes time to go to school, it comes time to all those things. It's like their child is shut out of all these opportunities. And I'm like, I'm starting to nod my head like, okay, now I understand why you'd go to court for seven years because it just cuts you off from so much of the country and so much of society to have

that. But that is typically true in a Muslim context. If you are born in a Muslim family, you are seen as a Muslim. And if you decide to try to do something, else, then you're an apostate. And most Muslims believe that a person who is an apostate should be given one opportunity to return to Islam, and then they should be punished if they refuse. Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay. So that's a complicated situation. What about Somalia, you mentioned? Like there, is it just one religion hates the other? Or is it more political? Is it economic? Does land have to do with it, all the above? Primarily there, the persecution is driven by a group called al-Shabaab, which is an Islamist

terrorist group. And they believe that they are serving Allah as they enforce Islam on the population of Somalia. And so, and again, particularly someone who has left Islam and is now following Jesus, they're an apostate. Those apostates have to be weeded out. And, And so that is the theology behind al-Shabaab. So it is theological. They're doing the will of Allah by killing apostate Muslims, Muslims who apostatized. There's a verse in one of the Gospels that says, the time is coming when people will kill you and think they're doing service to God. That's it.

That verse is coming true in our day in Islamic contexts. Wow. I'm curious in a place like Somalia, and maybe this will apply to Nigeria. You have these radical, militant Islamic groups, but then you have other, I would assume, non-radical, non-militant Muslims. If they just kind of turn a blind eye, they can't. They're frightened, too. And sometimes they're attacked as well. And, you know, I talked about northern Mozambique.

What will happen when this ISIS affiliate in northern Mozambique goes into a village is they will gather everyone in the center of the village and they will say, are you a Christian or a Muslim? If you're a Christian, you either get killed or you get forced to just flee with what's on your back. But if you say, I'm a Muslim, then they say, okay, quote some verses from the Quran. So like it's a test to say, are you really a Muslim or are you just trying not to be killed? So if you're not devout enough in their mind, then you also deserve punishment. So Muslims who don't want to kill Christians, who just want to raise their families and live in peace, and there are thousands of those, they are frightened of these terrorist groups, too.

And one of the things that we have seen happen in the Middle East with the rise of ISIS is the same thing that has happened in Iran over the last 45 years. You have Muslim people who look at ISIS and say, if that's what it looks like to be a good Muslim, if you have to, you know, scream and shout and chop people's heads off, well, I don't want to be a good Muslim because I don't want to do that. What else is out there?

what are the other options? And so we are seeing the gospel spread in the shadow of ISIS in the same way we have seen it spread in Iran over the last 45 years since the Islamic revolution. Wow. Okay. Wow. That's fascinating. All right. Let's talk about Nigeria, because Nigeria's flared up in the news recently. But I know there's ongoing conflict, right, between Christians primarily in the South, Muslims primarily in the North. Is this another flare-up among many flare-ups that have happened, or is this particularly devastating for the church, or is it hard to tell? It is a continuation of what we've seen over the last 20 years, and we see these biggest attacks, sometimes hundreds of people killed. The news media often

presents it as sort of violence between tribal groups or violence between shepherds and farmers and they want the land to, you know, graze their cattle and the farmers want the land to grow crops. And that's what this fighting is about. But when you go into some of these villages after an attack and you're like, okay, well, that house is still standing. Oh, yeah, that house belonged to a Muslim. That house was burned down to the ground. Oh, yep, that was a Christian house. And you start walking through these villages and see, well, all the Christian homes were burned down and all the Muslim homes are still standing. Well, that's not about cattle grazing versus farming. That's about, these are the Christian homes that have all been burned down. That is

an attack on the Christians. And so Nigeria, Nigeria is a fascinating place because in the South you have predominantly Christian population and you literally have mega churches that are operating, they'll be meeting together this Sunday, there'll be thousands of Christians gathering. They will have, you know, a high production value service. They'll have a great sermon and they'll all go home safely. In the north, you have predominantly Muslims and you have churches there that are smaller and are under fire. Their pastors are threatened. Sometimes they're kidnapped. Sometimes they're killed. That's where you see the violence. But it's the same country, but it's totally different to be a Christian in the South from being a Christian in the North. Do the Christians in the

South, are they helping the Christians in the North? Like, is there a lot of inner church help happening? Because we, I don't know, like, we often have the kind of white savior. Like, we need to go over there and rescue it, you know, whatever, not realizing there's millions of Christians in Nigeria already, right? So do they need, like, outside help? Are they doing it? They, there is some involvement from the church in the South. I would say there is not enough involvement. And they do still need help. The Christians in the North certainly do still need help. But one of the things that we hope is happening, and I think it is starting to happen, is the church in the South, to have really the same response that we here in America have.

Wait a minute, those are my brothers and sisters. Well, how can I help them? What can I do? And so that is happening, but I would love to see it happen more. And where's the government in all this? Is it a Christian? government? I mean, not Christian government, but there's Christians in the government, right? There are Christians in the government. And previously, they used to alternate the prime minister from Christian Muslim, Christian Muslim. So they would kind of alternate back and forth. I think they have gotten away from that sort of trading off. I believe the last three prime ministers have been Muslims. I'm not 100% sure of that. But the government of Nigeria says all the right

things. You know, man, we really want to get a handle on this. We really want to put down these terrorists. We've got to stop this kind of violence and attacks. Every Nigerian should have the freedom to worship as they see fit. And then there's another attack. And then there's another attack. And you're like, okay, do you really want to put a stop to it? Is it that you're not capable of stopping it or is it that you're not committed to stopping it? And that's a hard question to answer. One of the reasons Nigeria has been in the news is because President Trump declared that it was a country of particular concern on the issue of religious freedom. And that opens up a whole toolbox for the U.S. government, for the State Department to use

both carrots and sticks to try to improve religious freedom in a given country that we've identified that way. One of the big questions about Nigeria is, okay, because most of the attacks are terrorists. It's Boko Haram. It is ISIS, West Africa province. It is Islamists from among the Fulani tribal people. It is typically not the government. It's not the army. It's not the police that are committing these atrocities. So how is that going to work? How are we going to use that sort of political process to advance the idea of religious freedom, to advance safety for Christians in the North? That's a question that I think they're still trying to figure out, well, what is the answer to that? Because like I say, it's typically it's not the

government that's doing persecution, but it's also not the government that is protecting Christians in the North. Are they scared of the terrorist groups so big and powerful and influential that the government's like a little bit like doesn't have the manpower to go in and the intestinal fortitude? There is some of that. I think in some cases they are outgunned by the terrorists. there are also cases where the military are Muslims and they're kind of sympathetic to the terrorists. And so we have heard stories where men in military uniforms committed attacks. We've heard of stories where men in military uniforms stood aside and didn't intervene when an attack was happening. And so it's hard to say, is that a small group among the military?

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What's it like to be a Christian Southeast Asia? That's a huge, obviously covering tons of countries, but I'm thinking of Indonesia, Thailand, Burma, yeah, Bangladesh. There is definitely persecution in, so the communist part of Southeast Asia, the, let's see, eastern part of Southeast Asia. You've got Vietnam, you've got Laos.

There is persecution. they're motivated similar somewhat to China. It's a Communist Party rule. They want to control. The other thing that's happening there, though, is also what I would call tribal persecution. And it is that the people are typically animist. They are worshipping the spirits of the rain,

the spirits of the trees. And in a small village in Laos, if you become a Christian, well, it's going to stop raining on our fields. You're going to offend the, the spirits and they're going to stop raining. And so then all of us are going to have our crops fail. Well, how are we going to respond to that? We're going to come to you and say, listen, you can't be a Christian because we don't want all our crops to fail. And so that happens

in, like I say, eastern Southeast Asia. If you think more about sort of southern Asia, and I think particularly of India, India is a place where we see a lot of persecution. And right now there are 12 states in India that have what they call an anti-conversion law. Some of them actually, I'm sure with tongue and cheek, call them religious freedom laws. But what they say is, you cannot change your religion without going before some type of government authority and telling them why you're changing your religion and getting their sign off on changing your religion. And you cannot encourage anyone else to change their religion. So right now, there are dozens of pastors in jail in India for breaking these so-called anti-conversion laws.

And what the government would say is, you know, we don't want people to bribe other people to change their religion. We don't want you to be, you know, handing out food and saying, hey, first become a Christian, then I'll give you this bowl of rice. And I think all of us would say, yeah, we don't want people bribing people to change their religion. That's not good. But some of the ways these laws are written, enticement can literally be the tea and cookies that you have out between services at your church. Like, you gave tea and cookies. That's enticement. One of the states actually talks about the music. If someone is walking by your building and they hear music from inside of the building and that draws them to go inside,

that is an enticement to change their religion. And so these laws are written ridiculously. Well, one of them talks about, if you're going to talk to your neighbor about Christ and about changing their religion, you need to go to a magistrate six months before you have that conversation and say, hey, magistrate, I'm going to talk to my neighbor about Jesus. Let's see, it's November. I'm going to do that in April next year. Could you sign off on that? It's just they are written so ridiculously that, A, you can't follow them, and then when you don't follow them, you go to jail. And so like I say, there are dozens of pastors in prison right now in India under these anti-conversion laws.

Golly, wow. I mean, shifting gears just slightly. I mean, most of us listening to this, not all, but most are, you know, living in the West, mostly North America, Europe, Australia. What are we spoke, like listening to all this can be overwhelming. There's an encouraging aspect, like going back to what you said. I mean, this is a testimony of the spread of Christian.

Christianity. And it's in it reaching people that are taking their faith, obviously incredibly seriously to be able to cling to their faith commitment in the midst of persecution, possible death, prisonment. That's, that's, it's a testimony to the power of God, right? So we celebrate that. But it, yeah, my heart just aches just hearing all this. And it's like, I'm a fix it person. So I want to fix it. Like I want to, of course we could see that so, you know, God at work, but I'm also like, I don't want my. brothers and sisters being thrown in prison and tortured and beaten the death and killed. And how are we supposed to, yeah, speak to my mostly Western audience.

Like, how should we be responding right now in our hearts? Let me give two answers to that question. The first one is don't be surprised. A lot of times we in America hear a gospel of come to Jesus and he'll make your life here on earth better. that is not actually the gospel that's in the Bible. In fact, Jesus said the world hates me, and if you follow me, the world will hate you too. So the first thing I think is we need to not be surprised that followers of Jesus are hated by the world. That's exactly what Jesus said would happen.

The second answer to that question, and I like to encourage people to take three steps. So the first thing persecuted Christians ask us to do is to pray for them. So, number one, commit yourself to pray for persecuted Christians. And Voice of the Martyrs, we have some amazing tools that will help you do that. One of them is an app for your phone that literally every day has a new prayer request for persecuted Christians around the world. So you download the app, you put it on your phone. You can actually set a reminder. Your phone will buzz.

My phone buzzes at 9 a.m. every morning. A new prayer request comes up. Okay, great. I'm praying every day for persecuted Christians. So number one, commit yourself to pray. Then number two is, and this ties into the app as well, educate yourself so that you can pray more effectively. I think it's great to say God bless persecuted Christians.

I love that. I hope every Christian praise that. But I think it's more effective and I think you'll be more passionate when you say, God, I'm praying today for Pastor Wang Yi, who's in prison in China serving a nine-year prison sentence. I'm praying for his wife, Zhang Rong, encourage her, sustain her, while. her husband's in prison. I'm praying for their son Joshua, Lord, who's who's enrolled in Communist Party schools and probably hearing every day that his dad is a fool for going to prison, for worshiping this false God, Jesus Christ. Lord, sustain their family and encourage them.

So I want to pray those kind of involved, engaged, passionate prayers. The only way I can do that is to educate myself about what's going on. What are the countries that Christians are suffering in. Who are the people that are in prison that I can pray for? And again, Voice of the Martyrs, we have an app. We have a global prayer guide that lists the countries where Christians are persecuted and gives you some basic information. Hey, who is the persecutor? Is it the government? Is it their own family members? Who is the persecutor? What is it like to be a Christian? What are they likely to endure? How hard is it for them to get a Bible? Just again, to educate ourselves so that we can pray those engaged, involved, committed prayers.

So number one, commit to pray. Number two, educate yourself so that you can pray more effectively. And then I always say number three is whatever God lays on your heart to do. Because as you're praying and as you're learning more, I believe that God's going to put his thumb on something and he's going to say, okay, now I want you to. And maybe that's going to be to invite Chinese students from your local university over to your house and engaging conversation with them and learn more about China and pray for China more regularly. Maybe it's going to be sponsor Bibles to go to one of these countries to serve

Christians there. Maybe it's going to be writing letters to Christians who are in prison. We have a website to help you do that. Maybe it's going to be getting on an airplane and going to one of these countries. I don't know what God's going to ask you to do. But as you're praying, as you're learning more, he's going to ask you to do something to take another step somewhere along the way. And then I think it's just up to us to be obedient. Okay. Wow. Well, take notes, you guys. I love those thoughts. Yeah, especially the educating part. Gosh, yeah. Yeah, and being able to pray more intentionally. I would imagine, well, before I asked that question, what is it exactly you do for Voices and Marges? It sounds like you do travel quite a bit. It seems like you're very aware of. What is it? Actually, that's a great question. Still trying to figure that out.

Well, bottom line is I tell stories of persecuted Christians. And in order to do that, I go several times a year to meet them and just sit with them, hear their stories, interview them. I host our Voice of the Martyrs radio podcast and radio show, which typically is a conversation with someone who has been persecuted or is serving in a place where they are likely to be persecuted at some point in their service to the king. So I host the podcast. I also serve as our media spokesperson. And like I say, my job is to tell stories of persecuted Christians and tell stories of what God is doing around the world and invite people into fellowship. What Paul called the fellowship of Christ's sufferings. We, most of us in North America, we don't suffer for being a follower of Christ, but we can still be part of that fellowship if we choose to be.

And so that's my calling is to help people engage with that and be a part of that fellowship. Do you have some stories that stand out, or are there too many to choose from? Tell us about a couple, yeah, a couple of saints you've met that I just last month I was in South Asia and we interviewed a pastor who was one of those arrested for violating the so-called anti-conversion laws. and he was involved in outreach to Hindus. His church was growing. He was leading Hindus to Christ and he got arrested. And he said the first seven days while he was in prison, they beat him horribly. He said literally two guards beat him until they were too tired to continue.

And so he's taking these incredible beatings. And he said he looked down at his clothes and his clothes were covered in blood. He knew it was his blood, but God somehow God didn't allow him to feel the pain of those beatings. Like, God protected him from that in a just miraculous mind-blowing way. And so he's beaten for seven straight days. The warden of the prison is ordering this. At one point, he's actually filming him being beaten and talking to someone else. Like, see, look how we're treating him.

We're making him miserable. Yeah, aren't we doing a great job? so somebody was giving the orders for this pastor to be so severely beaten. But then on day eight, the warden comes to this pastor and says, and this still blows my mind, he says, you know, in my prison, we respect all the religions. We celebrate the Hindu festivals. We celebrate the Muslim festivals. And he said, I know tomorrow is Good Friday, one of your Christian festivals.

would you mind standing up in front of the prisoners and sharing about, you know, why you Christians have this festival called Good Friday? What is that all about? Would you just tell the prisoners about that? I'll give you 30 minutes to do that. And the pastor who, again, he's been beaten for seven straight days at the orders of this warden says, okay, yes, I'll share. The next day he stands up 168, I believe it was prisoners, plus 25 prison staff.

get 30 minutes on Good Friday, what it means, why Christ died, why he did that to bear our sins, to offer us a path to God, a path to salvation. At the end of his 30 minutes, the warden says, hey, I'm going to give you 15 more minutes. So he gets 15 more minutes, 45 minutes to stand up and basically share the gospel with all these prisoners and prison staff. And the warden's attitude changed. He literally assigned two prisoners to care for this man, to do his laundry, and make sure he got food. And so now he's got like bodyguards, sort of. And he told him he could go anywhere in the prison.

He could go anywhere in the prison and talk to anyone. That continued. And then the Lord supernaturally revealed to him that the warden had a son who was very, very ill. And he said, I was talking to the warden. I said, oh, so you have a wife and a daughter and a son. And your son is having a lot of physical problems, isn't? and the warden he said the warden was like who told you that like why are the prisoners talking about my family my personal life like this is dangerous for me who who told you that

you have to tell me and he's like Jesus wants to heal your son and the warden was like okay so he calls his son in his son is like in his early 20s he comes to the prison the warden says hey this this Christian pastor is going to pray for you and the son is like dad we're Hindus we don't we don't have Christian pastors pray for us. That's not what we do here. Like, what are you even doing? Why did you call me down here? So they kind of argue back and forth. Finally, the son submits in an honor, shame culture. He finally says, okay, I have to submit to my father. And so the warden and his son knelt in front of this pastor. Again, the pastor who he had ordered to be beaten for seven straight days, they knelt in front of him and he laid his hands on them. And he prayed for the warden. He prayed for

the son. Seven days later, the sun was well. And God had healed him. They had, they had been to the hospital. They had been to the temples. They had offered offerings at the Hindu temples. They had talked to the witch doctors. Nothing had helped. But Jesus healed his son in seven days. And again, the warden's attitude now completely shifted. He is not a believer yet, but I believe that's going to happen. That pastor is now out on bail. The charges are still pending. He, hasn't been released. He's not free, but he's out on bail, so he's out of prison. He could talk to us, which I'm thankful for. But that story has, there's just so many aspects of that story that inspire me. And often in working at Voice of the Martyrs and meeting persecuted Christians,

I think of the story of Joseph. And that amazing line, what you intended for evil, God intended for good. And we see that again and again and again among our brothers and sisters in hostile areas and restricted nations, something that man intended for evil, God flips the switch and turns it into something that builds his kingdom. But it requires people who are submitted to his will. God, if you can use me in prison, I'm willing to go there. That's a hard prayer. That's a hard prayer to pray. It's a hard prayer for us to even think about. But that's what God uses. That's what God uses to build his kingdom and to have these amazing breakthroughs. Wow.

What was he like as a person? Was he quiet, a extrovert? Humble, sweet, quiet man. Wow. And his wife was with him when we met him. And it's interesting. She visited him in prison in some of those early days. And he said, I didn't want her to know how, I didn't want her to know I was being beaten

every day. So I tried to hide it. And she said, said, but I knew. And I just thought about their, I sorry, I just, I just thought about her suffering to see her husband in that situation and to not be able to do anything except say, God, rescue my husband. So they were such kind, sweet people. I wish I had spoken Hindi, so I could have communicated more directly. But that, that humble willingness, God, wherever you can use me, that's where I want to be. Okay, I can use you in a prison. I think most of us would be like,

well, I actually didn't mean that, God. I meant, could you use me in a mansion somewhere? Like, I'm really good at mansions. But his sweet spirit of saying, God, wherever you can use me, I'm willing to go. And then ending up in prison, another part of his story, he, he said, as he was in, basically in court, both his son and his father encouraged him, stand strong for the Lord, stand strong for the Lord. Even if you go to prison, stand strong for the Lord. And he talked about what a blessing that was to have, you know, that vote of confidence from his dad and from his son.

So one story, but it has really blessed me. and I can't get away from that conversation, honestly. Can you share one more? We still got a few minutes. Is there another one? I'm sure you have hundreds to pick from. One of my favorite stories from early in my time of Voice of the Martyr, so this is now over 20 years ago.

I was in China, and we met a lady named Sister Tong, who had just been released from prison. I think it was like three weeks before we got there. She had come out of prison. and she had been in prison for six months for hosting a house church at her house. So at that time, the government was raiding house church services. They would take everybody's picture. They would take down all your ID information.

And then they'd let you go, except for the person who owned the house. They would go to jail. And so Sister Tong had been in jail for six months. She came out of jail. Three weeks later, we were there. We got to sit down with her. And this was before there was VOM radio. So I wasn't worried about recording it.

But I knew I was going to write a story. for the Voice of the Martyrs magazine, the free monthly magazine that comes out from Voice of the Martyrs. So, you know, I'm a writer. You start a story. You have to have a setting, right? You know, it was a dark and stormy night.

We got to kind of set the scene for where this story is taking place. And so my first question to Sister Tong was, so Sister Tong tell me about the prison. And in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, tell me how big the rats were, tell me how hard the bed was, tell me how terrible the food was.

Like, let's just, I want to paint a picture for our readers of just how miserable it is to be in a Chinese prison. And the translator translated the question. And Sister Tong got honestly what I can only call a heavenly smile on her face. And she said something in Chinese. And then the translator said, oh, yes, that was a wonderful time. And honestly, I looked at the translator. I'm like, are you sure you understood my question?

Like I was asking about prison. Yeah, I understood. And I'm like, are you sure she understood? because nobody describes prison as a wonderful time. Like, she must have misunderstood the question. Nope, nope, she understood. And I'm like, okay, well, you better explain, you know, you better explain yourself.

If you're going to call a Chinese prison a wonderful time, you better tell me how that's possible. And she said some amazing things, but she said, Jesus was with me in that prison cell in such a real and such a personal way. I experienced him more deeply than I experienced him outside of prison, more deeply than I've ever experienced him in my life. He was so close to me in that prison cell.

And she said, you know, something else? There were ladies in my cell. And when I got there, they didn't know Jesus. But they do now because I got to be the one to introduce them. So Jesus was with me, and he gave me a ministry to do. So that was a wonderful time. That's the recipe for a wonderful time. And I wrote about Sister Tongan in my book.

And at the end of each story in my book, there's kind of a point of reflection for American Christians who aren't being thrown in jail. And the question I ask what that story is, okay, if Jesus is with me and he gives me a ministry to do, if that's the recipe for a wonderful time, what is there in my life that could be a wonderful time? If I sort of borrowed Sister Tong's glasses and tried to look through her eyes and say, okay, is Jesus with me? Well, he says he'll be with us everywhere. Is he giving me a ministry to do? Okay, I got to keep my eyes open for that. So if that's true, then is it possible that a hospital room could be a wonderful time?

Is it possible an unemployment office could be a wonderful time? Is it possible a situation that I don't have any desire to be in? Could be a wonderful time if I sort of have that attitude of, is Jesus with me? And who is he putting in my pathway that he wants me to bless? He wants me to reach out to. If those two things happen, then it's a wonderful time. That's the lesson that Sister Tong taught me. And like I say, it's been over 20 years ago, and I still think about her often.

Wow. God, holy, it's fascinating. How do you come back to Oklahoma and go to church? And you know, you know what I'm saying? So I, you know, my family and I've traveled a lot. My wife was an MK. We've been on many mission trips, been to, you know, some majority world places and, you know, seeing grinding poverty, some of the poorest neighborhoods

in the world and seeing Christians, you know, one time in Nepal, hike it up to some Himalayan village where there shouldn't be any Christians. And there's this little fatched roof church belting praises to Jesus. Amen. We had to walk through a leach field. I was picking leeches off of my feet with blood everywhere as I was going up to preach. I'm like, what am I going to tell these people? You make it sound glamorous. Come on. That was great. I got a video. It was pretty horrific, actually. My daughter, my oldest daughter, who doesn't do well with spiders and bugs was, she about lost her mind.

I thought she was walking on water across the leech field to get. And it was, we laugh now, but we weren't like, it took a year for her to get it. It wasn't funny at the time. No. So, you know, I've gotten just tiny glimpses, you know. And I come back and it's just, it's hard, right? You come back and you sit through an encouraging, sermon about, you know, take up the helmet of salvation and read your Bible more or

whatever. And everybody kind of shuffles off home. And I'm like, is this, is this what it's about? Like, is this, you know, I don't know. It's. And yet, oh, as you mature, hopefully it's maturity, you kind of say, okay, that's there. This is here. What's there is not here. And it is what it is. You can't just, you know, be so nihilistic about the whole thing. You just kind to ditch every, you know, the American church or your faith, whatever. It's like, this is where God has you unless he's calling you elsewhere. But it's still hard, you know, it's just, it's, it's, uh, and so this is your full-time job. How, and you've been doing it for decades? How do you return home well? Um, that was a great question. I'm not, I'm not sure I always do return home

well. But I think one of the things that I take, comfort in is I'm not I'm responsible for the place where God puts me. I'm responsible to live for him in that place. So no, I don't have people pointing guns at me and threatening me for being a Christian. But I'm responsible to be faithful in whatever way, in whatever I do face. Whatever challenges do come my way. I'm still responsible to be faithful in the midst of those challenges. And all of us do have challenges. All of us are going to suffer. We may not suffer persecution, but we will all suffer. And maybe it's sickness. Maybe it's a heartache. Maybe it's a lost job or an economic setback. We're all going to suffer. How do we do that for the glory of God?

How do we, in the midst of that, stay faithful and stay encouraged that God is still at work? and I wrestle with some of that. You know, when I hear a story, an amazing story of God's power on display, like we heard in South Asia, I pray, Lord, I want to see those acts of your power in my life. I want to see that in my church. I want to see that in my city. And I don't know. I don't know what to do other than that. Um, there, there is that sense of, boy, I'm not sure we're getting the whole story. I'm not sure we're getting the whole experience. Um, and I want to. And I want the people in my church to. And I want, you know, I want the gospel to spread in, in Oklahoma, the way it's spreading in Iran. Um, so I'm very convicted when I come home. Um, at the same time, I, we're not called on to feel guilty for being born in a place where we don't have people pointing. Um, um, so I'm very convicted. Um, um, at the same time, I, we're not called on to feel guilty for being born in a place where we don't have people pointing.

guns at us? Like, I didn't control where I was born, so I don't, I don't have to feel guilty about that. But I do have a responsibility to be, to live for Christ where I'm at. The other responsibility I think we have is to be a part of the body of Christ and to understand, you know, what scripture says, remember those in prison as if you were in prison with them. Well, if I was the one in prison, what would I want to know people were praying for me? I'd want to know people were looking out for my wife and kids and making sure they had a roof over their head, I'd want to know that people were, you know, banging the drum to get me out of prison saying, hey, that Todd, he's not a criminal. Let him go. So we have instructions about how to respond as parts of the

body of Christ that aren't being persecuted. And we have a responsibility. And once we understand that spiritual family relationship, I always tell people, I have two brothers. And if one of my brothers was in jail unjustly and getting beaten on every day, you wouldn't have to guilt me into telling you about him. And you wouldn't have to remind me to tell you about him. It would come flowing out of me every single day. My brother is in jail unjustly and he's getting beaten every day. You got to do something. We got to do something about this. So once we understand that family relationship, I think it becomes very natural for us to pray and to call others to pray with us and to call others to action to say, hey, this is our family. We've got to do something about this.

That's super helpful. I love that perspective so much. You've already mentioned the Voice of the Martyrs app. I'm going to encourage people to check that out. What other materials or resources do you want to point people to you? Persecution.com is the main voice of the martyrs website. Again, easy one to remember, persecution.com. And right at the top of the page, there's a button that says free magazine. Just click on that. Give us your name and address. Every month, we'll send you stories of persecuted Christians places and faces that you can put on your refrigerator. or put in your Bible. You can pray regularly. Again, this goes back to educate yourself so you can pray more effectively. The magazine is a great tool for that. And I would also point people to my book when faith is forbidden. 40 days on the front lines with persecuted Christians, this is 40 of the most powerful

stories that I have heard from persecuted Christian Sister Tong's story is one of those that's in there. And I don't get a royalty. I'm not trying to sell you a book so that I'll get more in my paycheck. I'm trying to get you to get a book because these stories are going to bless you. And the book is written as a sort of travelogue. Let's take a 40-day trip together. Every day we're going to meet a persecuted Christian.

You're going to hear their story. And on day 41, your faith will look different. If you spend 40 days with persecuted Christians, your faith is going to look different on day 41. And so that's why I want you to get the book because I want you to be challenged by these brothers and sisters. I'll put a link in the show notes. People can check it out. Todd, thanks so much for being on Theology, I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's super challenging, encouraging, but mostly challenging, but also encouraging.

But yeah, thank you for the work you do and appreciate the conversation. You are very welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you.