Theology in the Raw - How Do We Know that God Really Exists? Dr. J. P. Moreland

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Dr. J. P. Moreland is Distinguished Professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. He received a B. S. in physical chemistry from the University of Missouri, a Th.M. in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, an M.A. in philosophy from the University of California at Riverside, and a Ph.D. in philosophy at the University of Southern California. He has spoken and debated on over 200 college campuses and taught in 500 or so churches around the world. In addition, he has authored, edited, or contributed papers to ninety-five books, including Does God Exist? (Prometheus), Universals (McGill-Queen’s), Consciousness and the Existence of God (Routledge), and The Soul: How We Know It's Real and Why It Matters. Moreland was selected in August, 2016 by The Best Schools as one of the 50 most influential living philosophers in the world. Check out Talbot School of Theology's M.A. in Christian Apologetics.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And they'll say, well, why do you follow Jesus? And the answer I say is, well, who else did you have in mind? Jesus would be the very first one, if there was someone greater than he, that would say, follow him. Fortunately, there isn't anybody else greater than he is. And I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. And I'm not going to try to run my life with my own finite little resources. I need all the help I can get. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology.

and the round. My guest today is the one and only Dr. J.P. Morland, who has distinguished professor of philosophy at Talbot School, theology at Bolly University. He received his PhD in philosophy at USC, the University of Southern California. He has spoken and debated on over 200 college campuses and taught in 500 or so churches around the world. And he has authored, edited, or contributed papers to 95 books. I just realized, Not like 95 Theses. Anyway, some of these titles include Does God Exist? Universal's, Consciousness, and the Existence of God and many others. Dr. Morland was selected in August 2016 by the best schools as one of the 50 most influential living philosophers in the world.

I have only known about the J.P. Morland from a distance, as I say in the podcast, we knew about this dude way back in seminary. and just he was just a legend. And gosh, yeah, I can't believe I had a conversation with him on the podcast. It was so much fun. I knew he was brilliant. I was honestly, I, you know, I'm not a philosopher. So I was kind of a little intimidated, you know, going into this. I've never talked to the guy before.

I was like, gosh, this guy's just going to make me look stupid and he very well could. But he was so down to earth the Cheddywood. What a, what a humble and godly man. I'm just really blown away. the conversation. So I think you'll like it. Please welcome back to the show. The one or only Dr. J. P. Moreland. Well, Dr. J.P. Morland. I can't believe I'm talking to you finally after all these years. You were a household name in my seminary days when we were interacting with evidential versus what's the Greg Bonson level of presuppositional. Presuppositional apologetics.

No, I'm not sure it's a good thing that might. name was the household word in it. So I don't know how to take that, but we'll set that aside. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, yeah, we'd read kind of stuff on both sides. And I was like, man, I'm just here to study of the Bible. I don't understand all this stuff. And I would read, you know, your stuff.

Like, that sounds convincing. I'd read Bonson and others. I'm like, I know, I'm like, maybe there's a blend of both. I wasn't planning on talking about this, but since I did mention it, very briefly, would you be able to articulate to our audience? What's a difference between an evidential approach to apologetics versus a pre-sumcision? Yeah, an evidentialist believes that apologetics, which is defending a faith and giving answers to people's questions and telling you why I believe in Christianity, evidentialism believes that it's okay to give

extra-biblical evidence like arguments for God's existence, evidence for the historicity of the New Testament documents and the resurrection. A presuppositionalist thinks that that places evidence over the Bible. And so what you should do is just start with a presupposition that God exists. You don't argue for it. You just start without a presupposition. And I don't see Paul doing that in the Book of Acts. He gives reasons. And on Mars Hill, he gives sites their own philosophers and poets that in God we live and live and have our being. And so I see that in the scriptures, and including the Old Testament, where miracles, for example, and prophetic prophecies show that God is speaking. But I love my brothers on the other side of that. But as long as you're trying

to win people and help them with your questions. That's, yeah, for me, apologetics is about ministering to people. It's not about getting into big arguments, although you give arguments, but not in an argumentative way. Okay. What originally got you into philosophy and apologetics? It is a rare type of person that says, I want to spend my life doing metaphysics and all the things that come with philosophy and apologetics. That's a good question. I was a physical, chemistry major at the University of Missouri in my junior year, some fellows with campus crusade for Christ, it's now called crew, came by my fraternity house and gave a defense of the liar Lord lunatic. Jesus was one of the three, and he was Lord. And so they gave some evidence for that.

And I was really interested because I'd been raised in a liberal Methodist church, but didn't know it was liberal. Jesus was a white middle class republic. Republican, and I'm Republican, just to let you know. But, you know, the Christianity was about being a good person. And the crusade shared the gospel. And I said, man, if this is true, this is it. I mean, you don't, this is not a game. You either get in or you get out.

And so I asked him if he could give me, I mean, a guy walking on water, you know, give me a break. Could you answer something like, and this staff. I did at a coffee house and it gave me some books to read and I did and I became persuaded that this was likely to be true. And so in November of 1968, I gave my life to Christ and I haven't turned back since. But I have found, because philosophy and apologetics for me is about witnessing and discipling Christians who have doubts. And so I got a fellowship to do a PhD in nuclear chemistry. at the University of Colorado. I turned it down and went on the staff with crew. And I began to share my faith like crazy. And I mean, people had all these questions. And I found out they all

boiled down to philosophy, which I thought was psychology misspelled. And so I started reading philosophy like C.S. Lewis and others, Francis Schaefer. And I said, you know what? This is, this is at the bottom. This is where every, you know, when you're getting questions, unless they're about historical reliability, then they turn out to be at rock bottom philosophical questions. And I realized that if I was going to be effective, I needed to learn a little bit more. But then I wanted to maybe have a bigger impact. So I got my PhD, Miami PhD, and in theology too. but that was it.

Did you study under Dallas Willard? Yeah, I was so honored to study under him. Wow. Yeah, he was my dissertation supervisor, and he and Jane, his wife, actually kind of adopted my wife, Hope, and me as their kids. I got, I was invited their 50th wedding anniversary, and I talked to him all the time on the phone. I'd be working on some philosophical problem,

and I'd been working for days. and I couldn't get, there was just something I wasn't. So I'd call Dallas and I said, well, let me tell you what I've been doing. And I started and he said, okay, no, I understand where you're at. This is, this is the solution. I didn't have to tell him what the thing was. He said, I said, okay, that's it. Thanks, buddy.

Wow. He's wonderful man. I mean, most, many Christians know him for his work on spiritual formation. Yeah. But some people don't realize, I mean, he was, wasn't he head of the philosophy department at USC? I mean, this is not like a Christian school, not thinking, yeah, I mean, he was a high tower philosopher. Oh, he was the most published philosopher at USC, which was 15th in the country when I went there. He was really, really knowledgeable, but you couldn't, he didn't wear it on a sleeve. He was

very gracious, but if you asked him a question, and if a guy got kind of rough with him in class, which happened once, he was never getting angry, but he would just push back. And, and, and, And he said to me later, I said, what happened? It just happened in there. And he said, JP, we've got to stop letting people bully us. And we just stand. We don't get mad, but we stand and give them responses to their questions. And if we don't know them, we find them.

So that was Dallas. That's good. Wow. Yeah, I heard that Dallas was incredibly down to earth and just a soft-hearted, genuine, humble Christian. I'd never met him. I've known a couple people that have known him. Oh, he was the closest thing to Jesus Christ. I've been 55 years of being a Christian. Wow.

That's amazing. What an opportunity. And how long have you been at Talba? You've been there your entire Christian career, right? 35 years. 35 years. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Love it. So you have been engaging in apologetics, defending the faith. I mean, one on one, one on three, one on thousands in audiences. What have you seen change over the last three decades or so since you've been doing apologetics? Yeah. Questions have been raised, people raising. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think two things I think that our viewers would be benefited by. I think the first thing is that there is a tendency today that we, wasn't true when I began in 1970 to lean toward postmodern wokeness relativism. And they don't think there's religion is is not something that you know a reason about. It's a matter of blind faith and emotion. And if that's something you need, good for you. And if I need something else, you know, it's good for me. whatever. So the idea that this worldview makes more sense than any other one just never

entered their mind. They think science is really the only way to know truth. And if something is not scientifically provable, and I don't even know what provable means in science, but then, you know, it's just a matter of your personal feelings and what you want to be true. But the other thing you've got to keep in mind is that I don't care how culture changes. People still are made in God's image, whether they like it or not. And that means that they respond to reasons. I mean, God says, come, let us reason together. And when Paul in the book of Acts shared his faith, he presented reasons for believing. In 1st, 15th, he says, if you don't believe in a resurrection, and there are 500 people that saw them, go ask them.

That's evidence. And it says in one place after Paul spoke, and some of them were persuaded. Right. It doesn't say they were converted, they were. But what does it mean to be persuaded? It means that the presentation that this person gave, you know, what I think it makes, I persuaded it makes sense, and it's reasonable. So, you know, that's not the only way to share, but it's an important part of the church's mission.

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your side or prefer something soft or firm or super firm, they have the mattress for you. And they also offer a 120-day trial. So if you don't love it, they'll help you return it or swap it out, hassle-free. You can just head over to Brooklynbetting.com and use my promo code T-I-T-R at Check out to get 30% off site wide. This offer is not available anywhere else. That's Brooklynbetting.com and promo code TITR for 30% off sitewide. Support our show and let them know that we sent you after checkout. Again, that's Brooklynbetting.com promo code TITR. What are some of the most common objections to Christianity that you've encountered over the years? There's got to be a top five that kind of always go. I think, well, I think arguments for

God's, how do you know there's a God? And there's, there are some really good arguments that there has to be a God, personal God. And some would say the question about, you know, the Bible was written by men and that, you know, and then whatever Jesus is, I think, in the New Testament, you know, those people were pretty superstitious back then. And I mean, how, how can you place your life on something that happened, two, thousand years ago when people didn't really know a lot about the world. Well, that's just not true. And so you have to respond to that. I think the other things are, why is there evil in the world? Yeah. If God is loving. I just, I don't get it. And the response is always, if God didn't exist, there couldn't be evil, because evil is a lack of goodness. It's a privation of what ought to be there, a person who's blinded, that's a metaphysical evil because it ought to be differently. So, when evil is when things aren't the way they ought to be. And, you know, when I say a car is broken down and it's not working, then I'll say, well,

it's just not working the way it's supposed to. It ought to work. Well, what do I mean by that? Well, it's not working the way the people who designed this car made it to, function. And so when you say there's evil, there has to be goodness, because evil is a lack of goodness. So goodness is, so I want to know where that came from. And I want to know if there isn't a designer, how could an automobile be broken? Because there's just no purpose to it. And when there's sick people and people that are handicapped and so on, that's because there was a designer that had an

an alternative plan, but there's evil in the world that undercut some of that. And so then I think, what about people who don't get a chance to hear about the gospel and why? You really believe in hell. I mean, what is that about? So I think those are kind of things that offend people a little more than they used to. So you use the problem of evil question or pushback as a basis for establishing, if this is in right term, you know, absolute ontological truth and absolute moral truth. There has to be some sort of universal standard.

There you go. A design of morality from which to even define evil. Absolutely. And so I turned it into an argument for God. It's actually not a good argument against God's existence. It may be problematic that he's good, but if he isn't good, there couldn't be evil. So, yeah, I turn that around. And I'm not playing a game.

I think that's actually the way to react. is. Right, right. I mean, I've often thought, and I'm not an apologist at all, but, you know, I've had to defend certain viewpoints and in conversations. And let me know which I would, I would love to know if this is even a good approach. I've often said, well, first of all, the problem of evil is a problem for any worldview. There's no worldview that doesn't have a problem of evil. Every religion has it. And if you go with atheism, you know, there is no God. Well, there's still evil. There's no evil. There's no, evil in the world. And you can kind of tend towards nihilism if you have an atheistic view of the world. But when it comes to evil, everything's just kind of arbitrary. And even the, even moral

absolutes, it's like, well, cultures can kind of determine moral absolutes. So, you know, what might be moral for Americans might not be the same morality for Poppin deGinnans. But I'm like, well, who says I need to abide by cultural standards of, you know, whatever? Yeah, exactly. We keep digging and digging and digging. It's like, if the whole thing's kind of arbitrary, then we just kind of end up with nihilism. Either way, the problem of evil is a problem in any world you have to make sense of it. Absolutely. And so which one has the best solution? Right. I love that approach. I think that's a great approach. And the incarnation and the suffering of Jesus has to, that that is a unique, pretty powerful aspect of the Christian world. He

undoes evil by becoming a man and enduring the very suffering. We're not sure. And you know, it's funny. There was a book written about the title was what Jesus didn't do. And what this author did was he compared some of the great figures in history, political leaders, spiritual leaders, so great generals. And in literature, who are the great figures in literature? And he said, Jesus is different than all of them because Jesus never did. seven or eight things that this that is universal in the literary heroes and in real heroes. For example, when Jesus was asked a question, he never said, you know, let me get back to you on that.

You know, that's, I don't, I don't know what to do with it. Let me think about it for a few days. He never did that. He never, he never tried to promote himself to be lording or, being and lording over his soldiers or people. Now, he promoted that he was the Savior and what his identity was because he was trying to help people. But it wasn't all about him. It was about us and his desire to heal us and make us right.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. What do you do when you're faced with a question? Well, has this ever happened where somebody raises a question? And you're just like, I don't know the answer to this. I don't know how to respond. Have you ever been caught off guard with the question where you're like, yeah.

It's been a while, but yeah, I have. And so I say, you know what? To be honest, if you haven't thought about that. I don't really think right now I've got a good answer, but I'll tell you what I'll do. If you'll give me your email or if you want to meet here again next week at this time, I'll try to find something for you. Because I know there are no other people have answers to that. I just don't happen to know what they are.

And I'll find an answer to you for you. The other thing I always say, when I start witnessing to someone, as I say, I want to ask you a question before we talk, would you like for Christianity be true? I mean, would you like for the biblical God to exist and for Jesus Christ to be the divine human, incarnation of God who died first. Would you like that to be true? And you're just having problems with it. Well, you know, a lot of people say, I'm not to be honest with you. I kind of like to

be in control of my own life. Well, then I think the questions you're asking, I don't mean to offend you, but they may be cover-ups that make you not feel bad that you don't want to consider. this because you really are kind of being so a little bit self-centered wanting to be in control your own life and i you know and so that's what i often say and they'll say well why do you follow jesus and the answer i say is well who else did you have in the mind i if you jesus would be the very first one if there was someone greater than he that would say follow him because he was concerned about us. Unfortunately, or fortunately, there isn't anybody else greater than he is.

And I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. And I'm not going to try to run my life with my own finite little resources. I'm a broken person. I need all the help I can get. I need a friend, a Lord that'll guide me. That's who Jesus is. That's interesting. I haven't thought about it like that.

like, because most many people, if they look at just the life and teaching to Jesus, let's lay aside the resurrection, the miracles, son of God, acclaimed, blah, blah, but just like who was he? What did you do? What did you teach? Most people are like, gosh, if the world is filled with people like this, and people in a good place, people loving their neighbor and enemy and taking care of others. And so just almost like a stepping stone to where you don't get into maybe the miracles just yet or resurrection. Obviously, those are, those are going to be essential. But I love. love that approach to like, I don't want to follow myself. I don't trust myself. I know myself and I'm not a good determiner of right and wrong. So I need somebody to follow. And of all the people,

Jesus makes this very compelling figure to follow. Yeah. I mean, I could use some help. How about you? And so, you know, you have a person, see, people have a view of Jesus as a fundamentalist, legalist that is waiting for you to make a mistake. Right. boy, he's going to come down. And that's not who he was. Now, he, you know, he dealt with evil. But so I have a person read a gospel and said, you don't have to believe it, but just it'll help you at least get acquainted with who it seems like he was. And so I think your approach there's the right one. Let's let's correct their misunderstandings by just looking at what he said and did. Yeah, because once you can develop some sympathy or curiosity with who Jesus is, what he said, then, okay, well, then he did make these claims and his followers did make claims about his resurrection. Yeah.

Actually, Jesus made claims about his own resurrection. And then you can get into some of the more, the tougher things there. How do you, what do you say when people say, how do you know Jesus rose from the dead? You can't prove that, you know. So, and well, the New Testament says he did. Well, yeah, it was written by a bunch of people who, you know, how can we trust those claims, you know? Exactly.

Yeah. Well, I say, first of all, I don't know what prove means outside of logic and mathematics. There you could prove. There are no such things as proofs in science or history. What you try to establish is something is beyond reasonable doubt. You don't look for proof in a court of law. beyond reasonable doubt, or it is better, it's more rational than any other alternative explanations for what happens.

Then I'll go into the dating of the New Testament documents, and I will say that they were within, clearly within two generations. In fact, one generation, and all historians agree with that. And we know from ancient historians that as long as two generations after an event happened and it was still being written about and passed on, they still have retained a strong percentage of the original event that was compared to the early statements about it. And so it takes long for myth to develop. And then I'd talk about the evidence for the empty tomb and the resurrection appearances. And there is evidence for that. And so I would appeal to historical evidences for those things.

And they said, well, miracles, you know, they don't happen. And I said, well, you're hanging around with the wrong people because there are supernatural. I've seen, I wrote a book called a simple guide to experience miracles. And I gave a test in there how you can tell whether something's a miracle or coincidence. And there's a tried and true method that scientists even use. But miracles, I've seen with my own eyes several different kinds of miracles. I can't go into it. Maybe sometime you can have me back.

Healing's specific answers to prayer. Casting a demon out of a person. and strong evidence that she was demonized and she was completely healed. And then near-death experiences are beyond reasonable doubt. Because many of these people see things and come back and report them, and they couldn't have known like what was happening down in the cafeteria and so on. And I've got, I have three angels that go with me, everywhere I go. And it's not because I've seen them. I had five different people in different

parts of the country within about six months say to me, you may think I'm a cook, but you have three angels surrounding you. There's a tall one behind you and two short ones on either side. And they're, they all, these five people, Portland, Washington, the East Coast, Southern California, that came to visit me and saw them, they all described the same thing. And they didn't know each other. I'd never lectured about it or anything at that point. And so what do you do with that?

I mean, if you have five different people seeing something in a court of law and their testimonies agree about what happened, but they've never talked to each other or anything, that's going to secure a conviction. So at the very least, I actually wouldn't mind talking about miracles a little more. This is fascinating. There's a difference between proof and evidence, right? Proof and evidence is that, I mean, five independent eyewitnesses saying the same thing would be evidence, but not proof in the mathematicals.

No, because proof is irrelevant in history and in most of the anthropology and most of the science. don't prove something. They show that it is beyond reasonable doubt. And you want to base your life on what's more reasonable than not. And I claim that there's no proof outside of logic and math. So you're looking for what is the best explanation for the origin of the universe and for the fact that it's just very delicately balanced so life could live here and so on. And what do you think happened about the resurrection?

What's your explanation? Well, that's been shot down. I'm sorry to mean to be mean, but that was shot down centuries ago. And then we have the conversation about that. So, you know, you do your best and say, I'll get back to you on that one. I'm not sure I got an answer right now. And that's integrity. Yeah, that's good.

I like that. I like that approach because I think people respect it if you know, if you admit that you don't have an answer on the spot, rather than trying to cook up something and fumble around. And they know, especially younger people, they know when you're over your skis. What's the best argument, let's just say for the existence of God versus not God.

Okay. I, and this, I'll, my, I often think of, like, design. Like, when I look at creation, it gives evidence that, there's some designer, it doesn't seem to be, you know, result of chaos? Is that, okay? Great argument. Great argument. My favorite one is that it's beyond, it's beyond doubt now that the universe had a beginning.

The Big Bang came, a mass, time, space, and energy all came into existence at once. And there was nothing that existed before that. Now, the universe did not pop into existence out of nothing. You're not driving to work and all of a sudden a half cow and a half sheep just pop into existence right there. Oh, my gosh. No, there had to be something that caused the universe to begin. And whatever that was was outside of time, outside of space. He wasn't physical. He didn't have to obey the laws of nature because those

were all things he made. He was not under them. And whoever that was had to be a person. Because the only thing that we know that can produce change without anything prior to that causing them to do it is free will. Everything else is caused by something else. Lightning hits a tree and it falls over and knocks a rock over. But persons, if you grant that we do have freedom, and I think it's self-evident, we can initiate.

We're unmoved movers. We're uncaused causers. And whoever persons are the only thing that are uncaused causers, that cause things without anything causing them to do. do it. They may influence this, but not causes. So whoever it was that caused the beginning of the universe had to be a personal God. That's the only explanation that makes any sense. So that's, that's, that seems too easy. I'm trying to think. So, so it's, it's now established that there was a beginning. It's not like the universe is eternal outside. It just has always here.

Because I thought the Big Bang was like, it was just the universe, or there was just mass, And then, you know, over time, it just kind of things are happening. And that presumes that there's material in existence for it to come together and have an explosion or whatever. But none of that existed earlier outside of when the Big Bang took place. That was the beginning of the universe. That's what the theory teaches. Plus, I don't want to get technical, but it's impossible for anything to cross infinity. infinity is infinitely larger than any finite number.

So I go to heaven and God says, okay, you're in. But you blew some of those podcasts. And so what I want you to do is I want you to start counting forever. One, two, three, five. So I love to like nine billion. And I've been counting, you know. And this other guy shows up. And he's given the same doggone assignment.

And he's on two, three, four, and I'm on nine billion, you know. And I'm thinking of myself, man, I am so far ahead of the sky. It's not funny. But then it dawns on me. I've made no progress. We both have the same distance to count because no matter how far you go, you're still infinitely far away from finishing. If the universe had no beginning, it would have never come to the present moment. If it had any infinite past, it would be impossible for time to cross that infinity number of events or moments of time.

and reach the present moment. But I know darn well we're here. So we're here in the now, and it can only be true if the past was finite and that time only unfolded through its finite, period. However long you want, that's fine. But there was a beginning, and that's another argument. It's pretty solid.

So that's different than the design. You're going even deeper into the beginning of the universe, and a personal God is the best explanation for that. And then I want to use design, and there are a lot of different kinds that you can use. And then, you know, I move into, as God ever made himself known to anybody? And I think the New Testament scriptural documents, but the life of Jesus is the best evidential person for God revealing himself to it. So that, and then I'd share my testimony. Okay.

Okay. Wow. Yeah. So over the last three decades, you've been doing this or more. Five decades. Five decades. All right. Half a century. I hope to tell you that. But you're still still going, man. Have the questions change or have you as a nature of the conversation? Is it largely the same? Are people still kind of raising the same kind of questions? Well, yeah, like I said, they're still made in the God's image. And they have these ultimate questions, like, what's the meaning of life to you? And you make it up.

Well, that's not meaning, you know. But like I said, there's a little bit more emphasis on evil and hell and people who haven't heard because they want to be authentically fair. And these questions are raised against the fairness of a deity. if there is such a thing. He's just not fair. And I can't believe in a God like that. So you'd answer them. Those are more today than they were 50 years ago.

Is there, has politics played a role? I feel like there is more recently like people associate, kind of like you mentioned in passing earlier, like if you're, to be a Christian means to be a Republican, rather than you might have some leanings or whatever,

just fine, position. Yeah, I think that's very dangerous. But so what you do is you look at the party platforms and you see which one is closer to a biblical view of reality, then that's the party you should adopt, even though it's going to be messed up. And, you know, they're not always telling the truth up there on both sides. The reason I'm a Republican is not because I think all the Republican. or the great party, you know, they're really messed up. But they're better than the Democrats when I compare the party positions with what I believe

about reality according to scripture. And if our viewers, just do it. Just Google Republican Party platform, print it off, Google the Democratic Party and compare them as to what you know from the word. And I think you'll see, I don't have any dog in this fight, though. I mean, if it changed, I'd become a Democrat. if they began to respect life and so on. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, you mentioned, you know, you've written a book on miracles, which for a philosopher, for a well-established philosopher to write a book on miracles, that seems unique to me. You also have expressed your heart for just raw evangelism. Again, most philosophers that I know aren't particularly interested in talking to other humans. they would rather be. So that's unique.

You've also written on your struggle with mental health. You've written a whole book. Yeah. Would you mind what? You don't get a lot into it. I just think that's really unique for a philosopher to be that open with your struggles with mental health. Well, I was on my mom's side of the family, for four generations, I can sit.

say that people they're anxious, highly anxious. So when I was born, I had a genetic predisposition to anxiety. And as I grew up, sometimes anxiety is a learned behavior. My mom, it, uh, role modeled, being anxious, uh, to me, you know, until I went to college. And so, uh, in 2003, I had, I had a, I had a rough year. It was hard. And at the end of the school year, I had a nervous breakdown. And I eventually had to get into some good Christian therapy. And I went on medications that were tremendously helpful.

And I began to explore some spiritual things Dallas Willard wrote about. And I began to practice some of those. And what I did is I said, I might as well not waste my suffering because this was really helpful. me. Now I'm going to write a book about my vulnerability, and then I'm going to share four things that have made the biggest difference in me getting well. And so I wrote the book, Finding Quiet, so that my suffering could count for something instead of just be a wasted, you know, lousy five months, you know. Yeah, yeah. Wow. How was it received? I got to tell you, it has been, I mean, If you go on Amazon, it's just been beyond the leave.

There are some people that get, they're a small handful. They're really mad at me because I recommended that sometimes medications can really help. But they're forgetting that we have a body and a brain in addition to a soul and spirit. And part of the problem is that your brain chemistry gets out of whack and you can't, you need vitamins for your brain. And it's that simple. We're not disembodied souls yet. So our body does have an influence on our moods. And so, yeah.

But the other responses have been just that brought me to tears. I mean, it's been so moving to me that it's helped people. There is such a stigma around mental health, especially in the past, but even still, And when people with notoriety share about their experiences, I've seen that that just breathes life in the people. It does. And that's why I just was open about it. Yeah. Because I don't want Christians to have to hide.

Yeah. You know, there's a stigma, just like you said. Yeah. And, yeah, it really is. Yeah. Wow. What do you currently work? You're still going, still working on stuff?

What are you working on right now at the moment? Well, I'm writing some academic articles for two books, one with Oxford Press and the other with Wiley Blackwell, which is a top publisher. Yeah. And both of them are different approaches to why naturalism and physicalism, where everything is physical, are deeply flawed. And the fact is that the evidence is strong that we have sold. that our consciousness is not in the brain, it's in your soul, but your brain and body can influence you, and you influence it too.

So I'm working on that. We had a book, Brandon Rickabaw and I had a book come out a couple of years ago, which was a very academic book on the defense of the soul, and it has received tremendous response among even high academic, materialists. And it's pretty tough to defeat it at this point. So that's one number. Sorry, I've not, I have not heard that. What do you mean that consciousness is not in the brain, it's in the soul? I know what you mean verbally, but can you unpack that? Yeah, well, I mean, your brain is a hunk of meat. It's matter.

And consciousness cannot indwell a material object, especially when, that has a lot of parts because if as I look out of my visual field, there is an experiential what it's like to see the whole visual field all at one time. I can see all of it. But if I were my brain, one part of the brain would see color and the other part shape and the other part size. And so there would be no single thing that was aware of the whole visual field. it would be parceled out to different parts.

And so I cannot be a collection of parts and have a unified visual field of consciousness. I must be a simple substance, which is what we call it. And by simple, I mean it is not composed of parts that make it an aggregator or some kind of a conglomeration. And that's one argument. I have free will. And if I were my brain, I would be determined by the laws of physics. and my inputs. But if I have free will, I've got to be, I've got to transcend.

I have to be able to transcend those laws and act. And the only way I could do that is if I'm a non-physical self. If I were a material object like the brain, good luck. Your brain has no freedom whatsoever. Now, what if somebody suffers, I'm just trying to think out loud. I don't know if this is a valid question. if somebody suffers severe brain damage and they're unconscious, like their brain is linked to consciousness, right?

If I'm in a car and I'm in a driver's seat and strapped in, and they've soldered the doors closed so I can't get out, and I start driving the car around town. And if something happens to the steering wheel, so I can only turn right, it can't go left, then my ability to choose where I'm going is deeply hampered, but that doesn't prove on the car. It proves that I undwell the car and I need it to work if I'm going to get anywhere.

And you indwell your body and your body parts are instruments or tools the soul and mind use to do things in the world. So if the parts are broken, like your brain, you won't be able to think certain things. I had the leading person in the world probably on memory, who's a psychologist. You see Santa Barbara, not a believer, came to biola give a lecture to a bunch of us. First thing he said is, I have no idea what it even means to say memories are in your brain. I don't even know what that means. Memories are in your mind, and your mind is an immaterial thing, and that's where your memories are.

And so if your brain gets twicked, you won't be able to find your memory. It's like a CD. Is there any music in the CD? No, because I've held it up to my ear. Oh, there are grooves. But if you put the CD in the right retrieval system, it will produce sound out in the room.

But that doesn't mean the sound is in the CD. And just like my brain, if my brain is working properly, then I can use it to do things in the world. But if it's broken, like if the CD's broken, you're not going to get sound, but that doesn't mean the sound is in the CD. And if my brain's broken,

I won't be able to use it for certain things. By the way, you can change your brain, it's called neuropasticity, by certain things. So you can control the structure of your brain, but it can influence you. So it goes both ways. Wow.

If somebody wants, so I, yeah, this is way beyond my page. It's fascinating. No, no, I, no, I love it. And can you recommend a book either by yourself or is there like a popular level, non-about this? Yeah, I wrote a book for lay people called The Soul, How We Know It's Real and Why It Matters. The Soul, How We Know It's Real and Why It Matters. Okay.

I'm going to write that now. Okay. Last question. You've been at Talbot Theological Seminary at Bile University your entire teaching career. Well, no, not really. Oh, no. We taught 15 years before that. But go ahead.

Where were you before? I was at Liberty University and I was at the Internet School of Theology with Boussade. Oh, wow. Okay. But what was your question? Yeah, but you've been of Talbot for 35 years. So that's a long time to be at one school. You must have a good experience.

I'm a big fan of Talbot. I know half the faculty I feel like. And what a... I love them to death. They're all fun. They're funny. We get on each other all the time and it's so much fun. Yeah, but it's just a group of guys that are fully in the soul love with Jesus. They're really good at their craft.

They're scholars. But they have, they're not, there's no big shots or anybody that tries to act like a big shot. They're humble-hearted. I respect them and love them, and I just feel privileged to be a part of what a great group, men and women, men and women. And you help, you've been running the philosophy and apologetics, the MA and philosophy and apologetics, is that right? We started it in 1992. That's right. I remember, yeah, when I was in seminary, we would hear about this MA in apologetics and philosophy and apologetics. and we heard the reputation was it's very rigorous.

Like if somebody got through that program, like they were noticeably like brilliant. So it's not easy, right? No, we place 220 graduates and top PhD programs. We have about 100 of them are tenure-tracked professors and universities all across the country. Well, half the philosophy department of the Air Force Academy is our graduates. Really? Yeah. So it's been so, and they're, they're doing the stuff, man.

They're getting after it. So if somebody, who would this be a good? If somebody is maybe interested in everything we're talking about, but it's like, I don't know, do I, should I do a degree? Is that for me? Like, do you, how do you, I never know how to answer that question. I'm like, yes, everybody should go to seminary if you have the time, money, and whatever. I would ask, go for it. But it's your family situation, your financial situation.

And how much passion do you have in your heart to want to try this out? Remember, if you came and you started studying philosophy with us, you could, if you got halfway through the first semester, you could quit. You could find out this isn't for me. But most students who come, it changes their lives. And they tell us, my life, my relationship with Christ has changed because of this program. Wow, wow. Yeah.

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, Dr. Borland, thank you so much for being the guests in the show. What a privilege for a while. Alan. Great to you, brother. Yeah, you too. Thanks for timing it in.