Theology in the Raw - How Should Christians Think about Sports and Fandom? Dr. Paul Putz

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

To listen to our extra-innnings conversation, where we talk about LGBTQ Pride Night at major league baseball games, become a member of the Theology in the Raw community at patreon.com/theologyintheraw.Dr. Paul Putz is Assistant professor of Christianity and sports and director of the Faith & Sports Institute at Baylor’s Truett Seminary. He's the author of The Spirit of the Game: American Christianity and Big-Time Sports (Oxford University Press, 2024), and the forthcoming Jesus and James Naismith: A History of Basketball and Christianity from Origins to the NBA (Eerdmans. 2027). See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You can go to a football game. It's normal for you to cry around strangers. It's normal for you to hug people, maybe haven't met before, to feel delight, to feel surprised, to feel disappointment. And it is fundamentally human. And sports happens to be a rare cultural space where that's encouraged and allowed. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rob. My guest today is Dr. Paul Putz, who is an assistant professor of Christianity in sports, and director of the Faith and Sports Institute at Baylor's Truitt, Baylor University's

Truit Seminary. He's the author of The Spirit of the Game, American Christianity and Big Time Sports, and the forthcoming book, Jesus and James Naismith, a history of basketball and Christianity from origins to the NBA. This was a fascinating conversation. We talk all about the history of sports and religion, in particular in American culture. We talked about the origins of the national anthem at sporting events, the pros and cons of fandom. And in the extra innings portion of this episode, we talk about LGBTQ pride nights at baseball games and how Christian players and fans should respond to players being forced to wear, if they're being forced to wear, rainbow symbols on their uniforms. If you want to listen to the extra innings portion

of this episode, head over to Patreon.com forward slash the Algen-Raw to become a member of the Patreon Theology in the raw community. Okay, please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Dr. Paul puts. Oh, Paul, I am so excited about this. I, you know, as you know, and you resonate with this. You know, I'm a Christian, what, theologian, whatever, but I'm also a athlete or former athlete, I guess.

Although, you know, like the Marines, you know, once an athlete, all he's an athlete. So I, that's right. I love to talk about both theology and sports, but I rarely get to on this podcast. and you are an expert in both. So thank you for coming on the show. I'm excited for the conversation.

I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. And you played college basketball, you said? So you have an athletics background? I did. Still, yeah, like you said, you never really lose that athlete mentality. I was a small college basketball player. I was an elite.

But, you know, it was an important part of my experience. And you're now a theologian on the intersection between religion and sports. You wrote a book, The Spirit of the Game, American Christian. and big time sports, which is a fascinating subtitle. So I guess let's just start there. Like, what is the history and intersection between American Christianity and big time sports? Yeah. Well, I better first say, technically, I'm a historian, not a theologian, some of my colleagues at the

seminary, be like, you know. But I will say this. What I do historically is I'm trying to have history be a part of theological conversations. You know, what, how have Christians navigated this question? What does that mean for Christians today? Because we are, we did not start the conversation or the thought of, wait, what is sports and how should we relate to it? This goes back to, this goes 2,000 years ago for Christians.

Like, this is, this is something that we have been talking about and thinking about and reflecting on for centuries. So we get to enter into that conversation. And with my book project, it started as a P.A. I came to study at Baylor in 2013. I had been a high school teacher. I thought I'd be a coach, but then I really got just fascinated by American Christianity. And my own experience, I was part of the fellowship of Christian athletes.

My coach was a Christian and he had been a really important part of my life in high school. And I knew I was formed and shaped by sports in ways that were more important than how I was formed and shaped by my teachers. though I loved school, the coach mattered more to me than teachers that I had. And so when I started to think about what does it look like to study this more, how have Christians connected with sports, who has written about this, what's the history of this? Those sort of curiosities led me to do PhD work. So I came to Baylor and just ended up trying to make sense of how did institutions like the fellowship of Christian athletes, how were they created, what ideas about being a Christian athlete, do they prioritize and promote? How did it relate to these broader trends

in American Christianity? And, you know, what does that story have to say to us today? So it was 13 years ago and I still am thinking and writing and talking and teaching about this stuff. Wait, you said Christians have been thinking about this for 2,000 years? I immediately thought like the gladiatorial games or something. Yeah. Were early church theologians and stuff talking about they're talking about sports. Absolutely. Now, they tended to be very critical, our earliest sources. Once we get past the New Testament, the New Testament sports is mainly a metaphor for the Christian life.

But right, there is an understanding or just an assumption that culturally it is so common to think about the Christian life as a form of struggle and growth and perseverance that New Testament writers are adopting that language and just including it. and exhortations that they're giving to Christians. And so that's the, you know, the first use of sports is kind of neutral. It's more metaphor. But the earliest Christians, the question about the games becomes essential because it is tied to empire. It's tied to games that often have, you know, actual worship to stone idols or graven images, to pagan gods. And for some Christians are saying, we can't do, we can't participate at all in this. We need to avoid it.

But there's also a lot of Christians who continue to participate, which is why Novation and Tortoleon, for example, they write these screeds against sports. But in their screeds, what's interesting is they list arguments that Christians make for why they play sports or participate in sports, rather, and then give a rebuttal to it. So we know there clearly are a lot of Christians who are continuing to engage in sporting spectacles, which is why some of these early Christian leaders felt they needed to. explained that hey Christians don't do this. So it did tend to be more critical, but it's still that question of where are the boundaries, where are the lines, what are sports for, has been a part of conversations for a long time. That's interesting. What were some of that, I wonder if some of those ancient questions and responses are similar to what we have today. I don't know, I'd put you on the spot, but do you have no, for sure, for sure. And this, you know, and this isn't my

like primary of expertise. So I do mostly modern American history. or, you know, 19th century to the present, Cheryl Hoffman has written a great book. It's called Good Game, Christianity and the Culture of Sports. And he has a couple chapters in that book where he goes back and he looks at these questions of what is the early church doing. And he writes it in a way where it seems very relevant to today. I mean, some of the arguments that are being made for and against, it's as if it's, you know, are you talking about the gladiatorial games or tailgating at an SEC football game?

Like when students read it and my classes, they'll often make those connections themselves because they're seeing this. But one, and I think I can't remember for a tortellian or novation, but they have in there. I guess apparently some Christians were using Old Testament passages about chariot racing. And they were saying, look, if we have chariot racing in the Old Testament, since we don't see scripture condemning it, it must be okay. And so he feels the need to come in and say, well, just because the Bible talks about chariot racing, or just because Paul talked about running the race, that doesn't mean that it justifies sports for us. So, yeah, there's some really interesting dialogue.

Kind of like, yeah, happened, but it doesn't mean it ought to have happened. Descriptive versus prescriptive. There's, yeah, I would highly encourage you if you nerd out on this stuff, you can read Novation Against Spectacles, I think it was called her Totolian had one as well. And you will find their arguments are kind of similar to like sports critics today, some academic, and I've run into a lot of academics, you don't like sports, and they'll bash, you know, the spectacle of the football game. And yeah, this, the scold or the academic, or the prophetic voice, whatever you want to, whatever you want to call. It's been around for a while

too. Yeah. So let's fast forward to your more, to more recent history, your area of expertise the last, I don't know, 100 or so years. Like, what, how would you describe the integration between religion and sports in America? So for a lot of Christian history, you know, 1,800 years, it was ambivalent, tended to be more at odds, more hostile. Like, Christians always were engaging in sports, but the church wasn't fully embracing sports. And also sports wasn't what it's like today.

So we needed in the 19th century a couple of revolutions to happen. I mean, the industrial revolution leads to more leisure time, so more people are able to participate in sports. We have the organization of sports leagues. We start to have sports be an actual vocation where you can make a living in sports. We see sports becomes connected to and embedded within educational institutions. And so sports just becomes more widely available as a way of life, as a vocation, as a part of the school system that by the late 19th century, it exists, especially in England and the United States in a way that it hadn't for most of human history before then.

So it brings new questions about emphasis priorities. But the other part to that is in the 19th century, we had this movement called muscular Christianity. And this is a movement that really began to try to combat some of the dualistic thinking that pitted, you know, mind and body is against each other. Or would say the spiritual realm, that's really what Christians should be interested in, the invisible spiritual realm. And the body, you know, the body is.

is not the same thing and we need to avoid and resist the tendencies of the body. And Muscular Christians had a more positive view of the body and its role in Christian formation. And so the quintessential muscular Christian organization is the YMCA. And this is an organization that for a long time was very evangelistic. They were talking about proclaiming Jesus Christ's Lord and Savior. And then they also had this triangle logo, mind, body, and spirit integrated of the holistic view of what a person is. And in that, within that movement,

sports became something that Christians could value that could even have sacred worth because it was tied in with seeing the body in a more holistic way. And so the classic example here too with the YMCA is the sport of basketball, which is created by a muscular Christian named James Naismith at a YMCA training school

for the purposes of winning math, winning men to the master through the gym. Basketball is this Christian game that begins out of this, out of this movement. And so that's definitely a shift when we look at, you know, the 1800 years before. Basketball is created as an evangelistic tool. That's how the game was invented. That's how the game began. And by the way, my next book is actually called Jesus and James Naismith,

a history of basketball Christian from origin. So I, if you want the story coming in 2027 with Erdman's, I will trace that whole argument. But yes, basketball really is created, not just for Christian reasons by the seminary-trained Presbyterian, but it's at a Christian institution. And it's spread throughout the world by missionaries and by YMCA physical education directors who really see what they're doing as part of this Christian mission. So begins that way.

It's also from the beginning is a game for all people. So it's never only for Christians. but it doesn't, it's not created if you don't have Christians seeing sports as a real opportunity for witness and for mission. Wow, that's wild. What about, and this is in the late 1800s you're saying? 1891 is when basketball is created. So baseball, is baseball the first, like, widespread American sport? Baseball is for the team sports, yeah.

Now, you can go, you know, early America, there's boxing and, and, and, uh, going prize fights and One of the earliest sports is race walking pedestrianism kind of becomes running eventually It's more like more like more like a type of jog, but it was sort of an endurance test and so different pedestrians would Show how much they could keep moving Horse racing was really popular early on, but yes as far as team sports Baseball after the Civil War especially we have our first professional teams that are formed and

And close after baseball, American football by the late 19th century, that's become an essential part of the sports landscape too. Hey, everyone, I want to introduce you to one of my favorite coffee companies right now. It's called Tipica Coffee. Tipica is a specialty coffee company sourcing directly from a high-quality micro farm in Tolima, Colombia. What makes Tipica different is their commitment to have a true farm-to-customer model. By cutting out the middlemen, they help ensure Colombian coffee farmers receive fair wages for their work while delivering incredibly fresh specialty-grade coffee directly to your door. They also offer a monthly coffee subscription for just $35, which includes two bags of coffee every month. It's a great way to explore different varieties, discover new flavor notes, and experience the incredible diversity that Colombian coffee has to offer.

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Just head over to TheologyNrod.com to check it out. We had some amazing conversations and talks about AI, immigration, mental health, and a couple different dialogical debates on the historical reliability of the Bible, and another one on Christians and War. The speakers include Sandy Richter, Piedens, Shane Claiborne, Paul Copeland, Dan Allender, Chinway Williams, Rick Heels, and many others. My favorite part of the conference, I mean, it had to be all the dialogues in Q&A, portions of each session where speakers had to go off script and address some challenging

questions in the moment. These raw conversations are always the best. Again, if when I get access to the conference, check it out theology in the raw.com. I mean, today, when you go to a big game sporting event, it feels religious. Yeah. You know, you have your Allegiant, your national anthem, everybody's pledging allegiance, which in my mind, growing up in sports, I took it for granted, of course, is what you do. But now being more reflective, I'm like, why would, it doesn't make sense to me. Like, why would we do that? Like, what does I have to do with the game?

You know, it seems like you're, there's something bigger going on than just the event you're watching. Yeah. And depending on your view of faith and politics, it's almost like, yeah, it's almost like offensive. Like, why are you demanding my allegiance to this country at this game? well, okay, whatever in other environments, but like, what does that have to do with a baseball game? Anyway, people may disagree with beyond that.

But how, like, take us from 100 years ago to the shape of the intertwining of athletic events into American culture and even sort of this. And maybe you have a better term, but just this almost like religious feel to big game sporting events. Yeah. So if we think about sports becoming a part of American culture, 19th century, you know, we just sort of hit on that. And Christians are actively helping to create this. They're literally creating sports like basketball. They are helping to popularize sports like American football. The very first, you know, football coach who is paid to be a coach, was James Naismith's classmate who was wanted to be a minister.

And he said he decided he could minister more effectively on the football field than the pulpit. And so he sees coaching as ministry and he gets involved in the game that way. But I think in all those cases, Christians are seeing in sports something that goes beyond just this entertainment, just this game that is played. They are saying this connects to the type of culture and community we want to create. This connects to the type of people we want to form. And I think that's how we start to get, what? whether it's cities, towns, neighborhoods, states, countries, starting to identify with sports in a way that makes sports go beyond just like what's actually happening on the field.

Because when you stop to think about sports, and I think I run into academics who do this a lot, it's like, why do we care so much? It's you have these people who are, you know, five on each side and you have to throw a ball into a cylinder and you have to do that more times than the other. And if you just start to like just describe what's happening, happening, it seems kind of ridiculous. But I think what a lot of scholars miss is that sport is a cultural text. It is a cultural narrative. And it's one that you actually, as a fan or a spectator or a participant, you get to engage your whole body in this experience. And it's the meaning

that's assigned to those physical activities that gives it its power. And so it's because you feel like in some sense what's happening on that court or on that field, it is about who we are as a community. It represents this ideals that you want to be about. It's about those young people, you know, what character traits are formed in them by participating. And those young people represent the future of your school, neighborhood, city, country. And so there's, there really is this idea of formation and community identity enacted through this highly emotional, embodied experience that gives sports its power. And so, yes, in one sense, we might say, what does a national Anthem have to do with this, but I think in another sense, we'd say it really is an outgrowth of the

fact that we have invested sports with cultural meanings. And because of that, it would make sense that we would want this to say something about our country. In terms of like, I mean, when the National Anthem itself is first connected to sports is during World War I, right? So it's when we're whipping up this sort of patriotism, and one of the baseball owners ran into this challenge because you, they wanted to keep baseball going. during the war, but a lot of the young men were expected to go join the army. And there's a question of, are you unpatriotic if you are playing sports? Because that seems like a game instead of going off to war.

So one of the ways they leaned into this patriotism is to say, hey, let's let us play our games, but we'll like donate proceeds to the Red Cross or we'll donate proceeds to the military. And then we'll also, we'll use this as a way to promote the sense of American identity. So you do tend to see a heightened sense of patriotism, World War I is where it really got going. And then after World War II, during the Cold War, in terms of like the, not just the patriotic displays, but some of the religious displays like praying on the field before games, religion

is tied to national identity and the Cold War, you know, under God is added to the Pledge of Allegiance in this era. And so you also tend to see some religion tied to national identity. And then more recently, after 9-11, you started to see. see even once again a heightened connection between these massive displays of flags and patriotism as sporting events that hadn't existed to that degree before so you can trace out some moments where even though sports have been connected to again a community identity there's been spectacles added to that sometimes to try to create some some patriotism and yeah and then you can

get the enforcement of that patriotism, which is the other side of it, it becomes not just voluntary of, hey, let's do this because we are expressing our love for a country. But if you don't do this, then there needs to be some punishment for the people who aren't at appropriate attention and so on. I'm curious, this is fascinating. I could see the rationale behind that. That actually makes more sense, whether you agree with that or not. Like, okay, that seems rational. It seems reasonable. and, you know, in times of national crises, there's, you know, a nation would want to foster a stronger sense of national identity. But now, once you create, once you infuse, for like a matter of terms, sports with politics, I mean, then you create an environment where it's kind of ripe for

political protest. Of course, I'm thinking of, you know, like the Colin Kaepernick, you know, taking a knee. And I don't know. Like, has there been other moments? where that's happened, once you make this more than about just going to watching the game, but it's wrapped up in, you know, multi-ethnic, multicultural, you know, multi-religious environment, you're going to have, I would say, kind of pushback to that. Have there been other times where you have people taking a knee or protesting at events like that? Yeah, absolutely. Once you invest this symbol of, say, the flag displayed out of game, you know, with meaning, you're going to have different people who interpret that in different ways.

And they might take the power of that and now use it for ends that you didn't intend originally. So, I mean, the classic example is the 1960s, the late 1960s at the Olympics in Mexico City, 1968, Tommy Smith and John Carlos are these Olympic runners. They win the gold and the bronze. And then when the anthem is playing and they're getting their medals, they raise their fists in a black power salute to, draw attention to the civil rights movement, to the ongoing challenge of racism. And so they are, they're criticized heavily for this, but they could only make that move with that much power because of the way that the flag and patriotism had been linked to sports before. So those questions and those challenges about, you know, what does it mean this sporting event and how it's

connected to this nation? Then what does it mean to be an American? Right. And for Christians, too. What does it mean to be a Christian and an American? And what is the role that sports plays in casting a vision for your faith? Because if we think about even the civil rights movement, there's a black church tradition, deeply Christian, that is shaping these protests. And even Martin Luther King Jr. supports what Tommy Smith and John Carlos do in that moment. But then you have other Christians who are seeing this as disrespectful to the country and to what it represents. and it's a difference in how we're understanding what it means to be an American and also how Christians should respond and relate. Yeah, let's linger there for a second.

How should Christians think through this? Because I, you know, I think a lot of people are like, well, a lot of Christians will celebrate when Christian athletes, you know, show off their Christianity. They, you know, they point up the heaven when they hit a home run, although I think 98% of players do that. or they put Bible verses on their uniform or they, you know, they're just very explicit with their faith. And we're like, that's so awesome. But we live in a secular, multi-religious context. So we shouldn't be shocked if a Muslim player did that. If a Jewish player did that, if what, pick your religion. Like there's, except for those who say, you know, think we are Christian nation,

which I don't know if anybody, I mean, it's just not, we're a multi-religious nation. Yeah. with a distinct Christian kind of history woven in through it. But I mean, freedom of religion. People should be able to express their religion at a sporting event, however they feel like they want to. But yeah, so I don't know. It's a tough tension because when I see a Christian athlete showing their Christianity, I'm like, dude, it's so awesome that dude is a Christian, you know?

Yeah. But I don't know. And I have, I would say I went through a time in grad school when I was first starting to read this critical sports study scholarship. where I was, I probably had a more critical tone on that. Oh, it's performative, right? It's kind of, I'd say, you're giving credit to God, but hey, what if the other team prayed too? Are you saying that one team prayed better than the other? And those sorts of things will often be brought up. And it's not, I mean, that sort of, those sort of questions are fair. Because when you bring your faith into the public square, it's a topic of conversation. And, and, and, and so I think that's definitely fair. I have come. I have come. to see displays of faith by Christian athletes and coaches, I think in a more positive light, just as an expression of the public expression of faith. And this idea that they are attempting to connect their everyday experiences, their vocation with a sense of transcendence, with the God that they serve, with this bigger story of what

they're called to do. and they're doing it through different symbols and different ways of highlighting that, but they're trying to make it meaningful and connect it to a deeper purpose and a deeper story. And so I think that desire that athletes have and coaches have, I think there's something, yeah, I think there's something good that you can work with there. I think it can also lead to questions about like pluralism and about belonging to a team where there are multiple faith traditions present. and how do you navigate relationships with teammates where you can love them well and serve them well,

still be fully you as a Christian athlete. And then I'll say too, let's talk about questions like where scripture literally says, when you pray, don't do it in public and go in private, right? Like, what does it mean to like authentically express your faith in a way that isn't just about performance and being noticed for it but is true like a true expression of who you are in private in your ordinary life as well. And I think those are, it's good challenges and questions to grapple with if you're a Christian athlete and coach. Like I still like it. Like when I see Christian and I just, I follow baseball. It's the only sport that I follow. I'm watching a World Cup right now. But I still get excited. I do.

I get excited when I see a Christian athlete being explicit with his faith. And part of me is like, is that showy? Is it not? I'm like, I don't know. If it's a heart issue, if they're doing it just for performance, I can't determine that from behind a television screen in Boise, Idaho, you know. So I'm just like, yeah, I think that's cool. I guess my only point is like you, in a pluralistic society, I shouldn't get upset if a Muslim gets a home run, comes around and praise Allah, you know, like I would say, well, that's, you know, I don't obviously have that religion, but I wouldn't be like, how dare you? I'm like, why would I, otherwise, I should be okay with people telling Christians. How dare you?

I'm like, well, I don't want them. We have a freedom of religion. We can just express our faith publicly. We should be able to, which means we should all be able to express our faith publicly. Absolutely. 100%. I think that's right. I think it's it is one of those cases where we see the value of religious pluralism in a country that we live in.

And for Christians to have the freedom, for their faith to be a part of how they experience sports, for example, then it would, yeah, other faith traditions absolutely should. And I think, you know, even with, you know, with baseball, what's like some of the earliest times when that, those sort of faith gestures became prominent, at first people weren't sure what to make of it. So in the 1970s, there was a Baltimore Orioles player named Pat Kelly. And, you know, he would hit a home run and then he'd point to the sky as he was running the bases. And you can, when I would read stories about this when I was doing my research, the journalist at first thought he was like, you know, I'm number one, you know, kind of like. praising himself. And so he had to explain to them afterwards that, no, he's doing this as a gesture to give thanks to God. And it brought up these questions that a lot of sports journalists just weren't very comfortable or really equipped to even have.

I mean, for them, it was difficult to make sense of what are these Christian athletes doing and what does this mean and what is the purpose behind it? And I think even today, I think sometimes there is a challenge when journalists who maybe for more secular spaces see what's going on with Christian athletes and coaches. I don't, they don't typically have a well-rounded, empathetic view of what's going on. And I think, I think, I think, it's good for the country as a whole, for people of faith to bring their identities in who they are and to how they compete. Yeah. That is interesting, the pointing to the sky with, after you hit a home run, is it like, thanks God, like, what do you, what do you, what do you say with that? What about this? what if a Christian pitcher strikes out a Christian hitter and points up and says,

thank you God. Like, what role did God play in helping a Christian pitcher strike out a Christian hit? Or Muslim pitcher strikes out a Christian hitter. And he points, thank you, Allah. Like, I don't know. It just, if you think broadly about it, it just gets really, it raises some interesting theological questions.

It does. But again, if it's just like, I'm a Christian, thanks. And there's not, they're not, they're not saying like, my God help me hit this home run and you're a failure. You know, I don't want to read too much into it, but I don't know. Yeah. It just raises interesting questions. It does raise interesting questions, but I think, I think we sometimes read into those gestures what for athletes and coaches.

It is a, I think, I mean, it gets to like, why do sports matter? On the one hand, it is a cultural narrative and a cultural text. We said that earlier. Like, why do we care so much collectively? it has to do with how culture works and how it operates. But sports also has a foundation of being this uniquely embodied experience. And when you are in the moment and when you are fully engaged with your mind and your physical self and you're locked in, and I mean, you know, as a baseball player, you've experienced this,

right? Like there is, it's really powerful just like on a neurological, physiological level, what goes on in sports. And so to connect this powerful embodied experience. with the God that created you, I think it makes all the sense in the world that you would try to find some ways of gesturing towards that, however imperfectly. And by the way, like athletes who aren't Christian will talk about spiritual-like experiences with sports. Like our bodies really do something powerful and experiencing something different

when we go through the exertion of sports. I think that's that's foundationally, I think, why people are drawn to competing and playing and going through the struggle of it because our bodies were made, I think, to want that and to strive for that. Oh, man. Yeah, I got so many stories of what's your best, what's your best baseball? You ever had like been in the zone, a locked in moment like that? Yes, I'll only have ever told any about maybe a couple of people 30 years ago. But like, I was, baseball was, I mean, before I was a Christian, it was my God. I mean, I would show up three hours early to practice, stay three hours late, and hit all day, Saturday, all day Sunday. It was all I cared about. And I was a, in like junior high, a below average player. Early high school became

an average, above average player. And then towards into high school, I became like one of the best hitters on the team. I was a slow, I didn't develop very quickly, but I hit the weight room, started getting stronger, developing. And then in college, early on, well, I, you know, one kind of offseason. And then I think it was my sophomore junior year when, man, I really started crushing the ball, doing well. I didn't think I'd ever make it to the pros, but it was, I was like, man, this is fun. But I'll, so all that to say, I really slow progression.

Like, I didn't really have a success until, like, my, towards the end of my high school year, I'll never forget. senior year was a fall league hitting my first home run like over a fence not like running it out like in little league never hit one before never never had the never had the never had the feeling of seeing a ball go over a fence and it was it's it's like otherworldly to like turn on a five I could see it I could literally see it this is I'm what 18 years old and a guy still in low 90s for high school that's he just he sits it middle in and I didn't even think I reacted and I got barrel on it.

And it was one of those line drives. I don't know for those baseball. It's just like it's almost like a line drive that just seems to take off like an airplane because there's backspin. And I could feel at my chest right now. Like, yeah, that ball's not,

that's way gone. I've never done this before off a really elite pitcher. And rounding the bases, I mean, you could, I could have died at home plate and I would have been happy. It was just like, it's hard to even describe.

Yes. And I don't know a parallel in any other sports. I'm sure there are. But like, you know, you throw a Hail Mary and the guy catches an end zone. There's still so many other players involved in everything. Yeah. Basketball. I mean, you sink a three-pointer, but you do that several times, you know.

But to hit a home run, it's like just you. Nobody else is there. And then you get the round the bases, if you want to be cocky, kind of slowly. And the entire stadium is you're like the guy for. 25 seconds, you know. I don't know. Anyway, I can show me. Especially.

That's what I'm saying. Like, this is like stamped in a way, because I'll have, you know, some moments from when I play basketball, I can still go back there. Yeah. And I can feel it and smell it. And it might, you know, like those experiences. And again, so as Christians, it's like, this taps into something about our embodiedness, our creativeness.

Like, there is something about sports when we play them and get locked in and in the zone. And it's, this is part of the human potential that we get to experience. And it is a gift. And so to receive that gift. And then when you're rounding the bases, instead of thinking like, oh, look at me and the stadiums looking at me, let me point to the giver of this gift, the person who made me. And I don't, I don't see that as a like an either or like the pitcher versus the bat because the batter is going to fail constantly. And baseball is a game of failure. Sports is you go through it and you're constantly missing shots or striking.

out or you know whatever it is. So it's I think it's more about when you experience that moment. You receive it as a gift. And if you do receive it as a gift as Christians, we know who the giver of those gifts ultimately are. But yeah, it's a it's it's it's the other thing I would say is as you're describing or like the feeling we get. It is such a caldron of formation because in that moment it is so easy to think about look at me. Yes. Look at what I just did. And I was definitely thinking that.

Right. So you can cultivate pride in yourself too. So it's, but it's like it, that's why it's powerful because you can be formed in these ways it tends to where selfishness and narcissism

and it's about me or you can try to resist that and you can try to connect it. Although no, it's not about me. It actually is about something else. And I think that's what Christian athletes are constantly having to do. Because imagine being an amazing athlete

where everyone, you know, is singing your praises wants to be around you and your body too, you're really gifted and you can hit these home runs frequently. You know, you've got to do some soul work, I think, to like really be formed as a Christian. It's hard because to be an excellent athlete, you have to have,

whether it's ambition or drive or a ton of confidence and the line between that and arrogance is so, so fine, you know? Like, I'm thinking, you know, the one who models it so well, I think, is somebody like a, like a Shohei Otani or, or, um, we're going to Freddie Freeman. A lot of the Dodger fans. So sorry. Oh, no.

I'm a brave. Yeah, yeah, the empire, the empire. The empire. You're the evil empire these days for you. You're like an anti-empirate guy, I thought. You're a Dodgers fan. It's my, it's my cryptodite. It's my cryptodite.

And I want to come back to that actually because I do have some serious questions about my addiction to the Dodgers. But, um, yeah, like a show hey, best player, perhaps ever. you know, and he's so kind and humble and, but he's confident. He was up there. He's like, yeah, you know, you get the sense, you know, he's the best. He knows he's the best, but he kind of doesn't, but he does. You know, it's like it's that quiet confidence. But yeah, I mean, and that that's pretty unique. Most players that are, that excel, he almost have to have this deep sense that I am better than everybody else out here, which I'm like, ah, that seems as a Christian.

Like, is that okay? It doesn't seem right, but I don't know. It's a tough one. I think, so I do get to, I was never an elite athlete, as we've said. But, you know, I get to hear from and learn from whether it's with Baylor, you know, we do some work with Baylor athletics. And these are D1 level athletes. And so we'll get to hear, you know, get their experiences with pro athletes, you know, some who are interested in some of the theological work we do. I get to hear, especially from probably former athletes, more than current athletes, you know, what was it like? And, you know, How did you navigate those questions? And it's interesting because there is a confidence, there's also a real insecurity, because everyone around you is awesome too. And most people, they're used to, especially once they reach the pros, but before then, they're used to being the guy or the girl, you know, depending on where they came from. But then each level that they move up, the margin for like what differentiates becomes so small and the person who is extremely gifted and, you know, is in the top 1% of athletes across the world,

now all of a sudden they're a bench player and they're not getting minutes and their sense of identity and purpose is challenged. So there's, yes, the confidence, but I think the insecurity can drive some of it. And I think a coping mechanism can be for some to try to drum up the confidence, right? I need to speak as if I'm the athlete I want to be because I realize how hard. it is in this current moment. And so it can be a blend for sure. I wonder and I don't know if it's for other sports, but baseball, as you mentioned, is unique in that the most elite players can go through patches where they're playing horribly. I mean, earlier this year, Shoea Otani wasn't

hitting well at all. Paul Skeen's arguably best player and best pitcher in baseball, or at least top two or three. I mean, he gave up like, what, five runs and the first inning is for, you know, and on Mookie Betts is hitting barely 200, you know, MVP and 2018. And so I think it does build a kind of humility that even when you're at the top of your game, you know what it feels like to not being not being able to hit the ball, you know, so I don't know. Yeah. And then you have to navigate that. What is what does confidence look like when the evidence on the field is not backing that up? And again, this is one of the reasons historically people who have seen the value in sports. Part of it is this idea of handling failure. Sports is,

about failure. There's an article a few years back is written by Timothy Dalrymple, who at the time was the president of Christianity today. And he used to be this like Olympic level athlete. He was at Stanford as a gymnast, didn't get to go to the Olympics because of, you know, injuries and some other things. But he wrote this article and essentially the title was that sports is about failure. And the thing that was most important for him, yes, he got to celebrate and had all these successes. But it was, it was when you fail, how to do you fail, how to be, you know, do you respond to that? Does that become how you see yourself? Do you shy away from the challenge because you might not measure up? Or does sports help you become a person who isn't defined by

your failure? Who can still see like God at work even when you lose? And he saw that as more valuable and meaningful than even the wins he got to celebrate. And I think that's true for a lot of athletes, even though they tend to get the most attention when they've hit the game winning home run and they're thinking their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ afterwards. There's also, it's in those moments of loss that athletes will feel closest to God, that God is a comforter, that his presence is near, even when you feel like you've disappointed yourself and your team. So it's, yeah, it works in powerful ways, I think, whether through success or through failure. I want to talk about fandom because most of people listening are not athletes anymore. Maybe somewhere. Most of us,

though, a lot of us, I'm sure, are fans. Can you talk about the psychology of fandom? You alluded to it earlier. Yeah, I, I get physically, like, down to some extent when the Dodgers lose or if they have such a really, like, they should have won that game or, you know, they're up by five runs and then I go to bed, wake up the next day and they lost in the ninth inning from, you know, walk off home. I'm like, wait, what? Come on.

Like, what happened? I'm, I'm stirring around. Like, who messed? Like, what happened? Like, how did this, who gave up the home? You know, why, why do I care? Like, why does it affect me? And I'm working at it.

I'm working at it. I'm trying to not let it affect me. But what's going on there? What's the psychology there? What's going on? So when I went to grad school and started to study sports, I moved from Nebraska. So my wife and I were both small town pastors kids from Nebraska. I lived there 28 years, came down to Texas to do Ph.D.

And at that time, I was starting to read, again, more scholarship and sort of of getting a critical view of sports, kind of distancing myself. I wanted to separate in some sense who I was when I saw sports to be more objective. It didn't last very long for me because I realized, and for me particularly like something about Nebraska. I had left all my friends and family from Nebraska. This thing, this Nebraska football or Nebraska volleyball, watching those games and following those teams, it was how I felt connected to this people, this place, this sense of self that it had had for so long. And if I were to just objectively step back, I miss out on the goods that are there when you are a fan of a team and when, and if you care

about them at the level that your emotions are brought up in the game, I actually saw that as like part of being human and a reminder of like these parts of myself, these feelings that I don't really express in other parts of life. There's a theologian named Marsha Mount Shoup. She was, so her husband was a pro football coach. She is a theologian and the pastor and she wrote a book called touchdowns for Jesus about 10 years ago. But she has a section in there where she is talking about a little bit about fandom, but she says sports are one of the few places in our culture where we are allowed to bring our emotions and express them publicly in ways we're not allowed elsewhere. But you can go to a football game. It's nor or any game. It's normal for you to cry around strangers. It's

normal for you to hug people, maybe have them met before, to feel delight, to feel surprised, to feel disappointment. Like, it's, again, it is fundamentally human. And sports happens to be a rare cultural space where that's encouraged and allowed. Now, again, like we talked about earlier with like an athlete, do they become more prideful or are they like out of gratitude? Fandom can lead us into harm. Look at how some New York Knicks fans responded. They were, you know, destroying buses and beating up Spurs fans. But the vast majority were connecting with grandparents, visiting the gravesite of someone who was a Knicks fan for years and never saw a championship, celebrating in the streets, joy. You know, that was kind of this theme of collective joy that

happened because this fan base felt and experienced this success. And that's beautiful. I think that's, that really is a gift, but you can't have that gift unless you enter into this deciding to care. And so to me, it's like, if I care, yes, it is going to, there will be maybe some ways where I don't handle it well with my emotions after a loss and maybe I shouldn't care about a football game. On the other hand, that is a space where I can not just experience, but learn to navigate emotions that aren't really expressed another person about.

So that's, you know, that's where I am with it, but that's how I navigate it. So it's okay. So kind of view it theologically, there can be a connected and a creational kind of connectedness that is exposed and explored in fandom.

Yes. I mean, as you're talking, I may be think, well, maybe just being like wholesale, rejecting any kind of emotional excitement over a game would feel almost a little gnostic.

Like, is it a little bit like, like, I don't know, like, rejecting kind of the goodness of embodied experiences in creation. Obviously, there's potential idolatry. There's all kinds of things.

The negative things of fandom are, I think, pretty apparent. But I haven't thought about the, not just the neutral aspects. Well, we can have fun too, but like the actual positive aspects of it. Positive. And when you start to think about the positive aspects, I think it then gives you the chance to actively respond in those moments with your emotion. feel like they're leading you. Like for me,

Nebraska football loses. And I'll be honest, like, I kind of don't want to talk to people for a couple hours afterwards. It's, you know, but I'm someone who literally,

like, I'm at a seminary. Here's how we should do faith in sports. It's like, I know this is how it should be. But that, that's an opportunity for me to actually,

I think, growing sanctification, frankly, like, okay, I don't feel this way. I need to, one,

communicate, Like, hey, you know, like with my family, I'm just going to take a little bit of time. I know this isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but, you know, I'm going to, then in an hour, I'm going to, like, give myself time to feel what I'm going to feel. And then, and I'm going to fully enter into remembering that it is, like, putting it, it is good to put it in perspective, experience it, but then put it in perspective. I think if we can learn how to do both things, that's a, that's a process of growth. I don't think we would get if it was just, oh, well, why does it really matter?

Who cares anyway? I mean, that's fine. You don't have to like sports, but have something that you care enough about that you feel something, you know, with disappointment and celebration, depending on what happens. What are some, on the negative side, what are some concerns Christians should have as fans in how much invested they are in fandom? Are there any kind of, and I'm sure there's a lot of gray area here, but are there any kind of big, big picture? like, hey, watch out for this or if you're acting this way, you got to be, you know, just probably check your heart. No, I think when it's, when you start to dehumanize or diminish the dignity of people, either on the other team or on your team, right?

Sometimes how can, how can so and so have made this play? What an idiot. What about, you know, like that sort of response. Like, that's immediate check yourself. Like, it's okay to feel frustration. but I think once when it can lead to those sorts of things. Because we, there's studies that show with, you know, the NCAA did the study about college athletes who get these hateful messages because they mess up in a game. And so when fans are living vicariously through a team in a way that leads them to respond with with hate towards another person or towards an opponent, you know, I think, I think that's a challenge.

I'm probably more worried nowadays, if you use the word investment, I'm kind of more worried that we'll lose the good of fandom because so many young people are taught to see sports into transactional lens with gambling. So it is like, yeah, that's crazy. This is the problem, right? Because if it's, if I'm rooting for a team, like the New York Knicks, it's been, you know, and I'm a Celtics fan, not a Knicks fan, but it was so cool to see these people who have rooted for the Knicks for decades and it's been in their family. And so when the Knicks won, it was like

generations of, you know, this hope that is realized and they're experiencing that. Gambling destroys all of that. If you are interested in sports primarily because of gambling, it is entirely transactional. You root for an individual player. You know, it's not a team. It's not a community. It is based on the odds that are there and, you know, how they'll do in that moment. And it's so destructive to, I think, how sports can be good, that I think Christians really should speak more about not just like the, yes, the gambling that it's addictive and what it does for young men in particular, but like how it devalues what sports can be. I think that's a big issue. No, it's a huge issue. I mean, think about it. Like, you could lose, somebody could lose

thousands of dollars because somebody blew a save or something or missed a shot. Like there was even Tanner Scott, what of the relief pictures for the Dodgers. who's amazing, but he's had some struggles last couple years, especially last year. But I've heard, if people could verify this, that, you know, he blew a slave, the Dodgers about the win, he gave up a couple runs, they lost the game. I heard that he got like death threats, him and family and wife and kids and stuff. And I don't know if this is an explicit reason, but I think it's probably the underlying one is somebody probably lost 10 grand or something because he blew a save.

Yes. No, there's just, oh. There's a couple of books that have come out on sports games. gambling and the rise of sports gambling and that their story after story of that of of of of death threats of hateful messages from fans who bet on some player and that player didn't do what they wanted them to do and it's in it's in the incentive of gambling too is structured so that you cannot come out ahead I mean that you know it's it is it taps into addiction tendencies It taps in. There's so much that I think is wrong with it. And it's really sad that the sports industry has accepted it. Because the thing with gambling, it has always been a part of sports. You can go back to ancient Greece. And when they're doing athletics, there's some gambling happening. You go back to the 19th century with American sports. There's always been this like bachelor young men subculture who is doing some gambling with sports. The difference now is that it has moved from the underground to be.

sanctioned by the leagues themselves and in a way that allows it to tap into young men at formative ages and some young women but it's especially young men according to studies that they are being taught to see sports through this transactional lens they're on their phone on these apps and it's hey who's playing today it's random games they wouldn't care about otherwise and they're investing in that instead of a team that they could have a bond with for the rest of their lives so I think it's really short-sighted for the long-term health beyond just what it does to the individuals who are caught up in it.

That's interesting. If you've got a few more minutes, I would love to have an extra Indians conversation with you about Pride Nights at sporting events, in particular baseball games, and Christian responses to that. Do you have a few minutes to chat through that? Easy topic, not controversial at all. Yes. Let's do it.

If you would like to listen to the extra innings portion of this episode where we talk about LGBTQ pride nights at Major League Baseball games, head over to patreon.com forward slash theology and raw to become a member of the Theology and Ron community.