Theology in the Raw - How to Love Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor: Caleb Campbell

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Caleb Campbell is the lead pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ, and is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Disarming Leviathan (InterVarsity Press) equips Christians to minister to their Christian Nationalist neighbors. -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. The exiles of Babylon conference is now open for registration. April 3rd to 5th, 2025 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We are going to tackle lots of really crucial topics, including gospel and race after George Floyd transgender people, the church, two different views on social justice and the gospel that a dialogical debate about whether evangelicalism is good for this country. That's going to be a really fun one. And we are running an early bird special. So if you want to come, you have to register before December 31st to take, to take advantage of that early bird special theology, raw.com. All the information is there. My guest today

is Caleb Campbell, who is the lead pastor of desert Springs Bible church in Phoenix, Arizona. He's currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. And he just released a book, well, last summer he released a book called Disarming Leviathan that equips Christians to minister to their Christian nationalist neighbors. I was really fascinated with this conversation. We talk about Christian nationalism, but even more importantly, we talk about how to best have healthy, fruitful, loving conversations with people who are maybe in a certain ideological framework that isn't that helpful. And Caleb has just done a masterful job trying to navigate that really, those tough conversations. Also, during this conversation, to navigate that really, those tough conversations. Also, during this conversation, I'm introducing a new feature through Patreon for people to support the podcast through Patreon that they're

able to tune into the conversation live. And so, and they can ask questions. So you'll, this is the first episode we've done this. And so we do go to take some questions from some patrons that are tuning in live. So we kind of test drove that feature in this episode and I thought it went really well. It was, it was really cool to hear people and the questions that come up as I'm having real time conversations with our guests. So if you want to gain access to participating in live theology in our episodes, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in a raw and become a silver

level supporter of the podcast. Okay. Without further ado, please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Caleb Campbell. All right. What's up, Caleb? Okay we, okay. We were chatting. We were having a great conversation offline and I was like, dude, I need to hit record. So we were just, oh, you, so you might already know this, but you're my first interview post election results. So that's, that's what we're talking about. So you were, you were describing your, the nature of your church. Can you go back and kind of summarize the church that you pastor? Yeah. So we're not denominational Bible church in the suburbs of Phoenix congregations, 47

years old. And we have what I learned to call a centered set church as opposed to a bounded set. So I learned that from Hebert who is a missiologist thinking about how do you kind of discern who's part of the church and instead of it being a boundary like you got to sign this statement of faith or you have to behave like us or vote like us, whatever the boundary is, it's more of a centered approach where what's your posture towards the center and the center for us is Jesus. So if your posture towards Jesus is you want to follow him and you are following him, regardless of where you're coming from, conservative, liberal, wherever your theological development is, if you are in good faith wanting to journey together

towards Jesus, then we are in fellowship together. And it's a beautiful image when you share communion with people who are nothing like you, it becomes very difficult when things like elections happen, because you know you're sharing communion with someone who voted the other way, and all the feeling and fear and anxiety or elation and celebration, that creates these difficult moments where we have to rely on the spirit to bind us together because I hate the way you voted and I'm terrified of the person you voted for or whatever it might be or the

proposition you voted for. And I'm struck by how frequently Jesus calls people to follow him in the Gospels and then immediately puts them at tables with people who are nothing like them. I mean, I'm convinced that a key marker of Jesus discipleship model was when he took Simon, Peter and Andrew, you know, to Galilee and fishermen and immediately takes them to Levi's house, the tax collector. And as I could just imagine Jesus like sitting back and be like, all right, get all your weird stuff on the table. We're gonna do this. Feet up on the table, just watching the drop.

Just watching them slam their fists. Tax collectors and, oh man. And that space between us, right? That's where the discipleship happens. I think the apostle Paul was always getting after this, thinking about John 17 in the context of a table full of misfits. And I think that's the call for our church is we let's stay at the table and it's going to feel impossible. And it is impossible unless Easter is real.

Do you have to, is this something you have to talk about a lot in your church from the pulpit? Like, you know, I talked to pastors that have a lot of, um, like kind of a similar thing, like they have, let's just say political diversity in a congregation, maybe they're a theological congregation, but it's actually, I was just at a church in Richmond, Virginia, shout out to Hill city, um, that has, I would say the, probably the most thought diversity in a congregation that I've ever seen. I mean, it spans all across the board, even among the staff. There's differences, but they're constantly talking about it. They're hashing stuff out. They're having meals together. And it's just in the air. Like, you know, it's just like, yeah, we don't all agree, but we love Jesus and are pursuing him

and are able to kind of just talk out loud. They would have no problem saying, oh yeah, I voted for this person. I can't believe he did that. I voted for this person. Let's go grab a burger, you know? But they, it's something that it is constant. They're constantly talking about exactly what you're saying.

Does that, do you find yourself having to do the same thing that you're constantly having to establish that kind of culture? And is that received well, or do people that don't wanna do that, they don't stay? Yeah, I mean, folks self-select out. Every leader decision you make is met with four responses.

One is, I'm all in, tell me where to go. One is, this is what my heart is always wanting, you just put words to it. Another response is, I've got a lot of questions before I say yes. And the fourth response is, I'm out of here. And so the decision to say, we're going to focus on Jesus and talk about our differences in their proper order, meaning first, identity formation of who we are as misfits brought together by Jesus' table. Two, recognizing and being clear about the rules of the road. We're going to practice 1 Corinthians 13 love. We're going to practice the fruit of the Spirit. If you wanna play, if you wanna do that, that's the commitment, then we can talk about anything.

We can talk about gender, we talk about sexuality, we wanna talk about abortion, we'll do it. We're gonna talk about who we're gonna vote for, let's do it. Talk about racial reconciliation, let's do it. First, we're gonna talk about who we are as beloved community. Second, rules of the road. If we can anchor in that, then let's talk about it.

And you asked about frequency. We have to say it every time we gather. Because, right, those idols. I mean, we're on social media six days a week and that just deconstructs our Christianity. Yes, our identity is being formed by every message that we hear. And as a pastor, I am on the back foot because I can only speak into that once maybe twice a month. Like maybe, I mean, if I once twice a week, if I'm lucky and it's easy to drive. I mean, I, I, I don't really

care for this metaphor, but I'm going to use it. I've got four kids, getting them to stay at the table for like 15 minutes to finish their dinner is a feat. It is an act of God just to get them to stay at the table. Most of what I'm saying to them is, come back to the table. Like we are family, we're going to sit at this table. I know you hit them and you're yelling at them and you don't like the way they looked at you. And I think pastorally, it's the same invitation is, hey, come back to the table. There's something good here. And it's going to require you to work. It's like going to the gym. If you're not sweating, you're not doing

it right. If you're not a part of a church that's making you feel discomfort, frustration, disappointment, anger, sadness. I don't think we're doing it right. Yeah. Yeah. That's good, man. Let's talk about this book you wrote, which has one of the more cool titles I've seen. It's one of those titles it invites. Like you don't know what you're talking. You need the subtitle. Disarming, disarming Leviathan. You know, I had a copy and I looked everywhere for it

this morning and I can't find it anywhere. I wanted to hold it up, but what's now, what's the subtitle again? Here. There it is. Yeah, yeah. I have a poster. I'm so proud of this thing. Look at that. If you're on the YouTube, look at this. Who did the artwork? Did you publish it?

Yeah, InterVarsity. That's great. Loving your Christian nationalist neighbor or what's the subtitle? Yes, disarming Leviathan, loving your Christian nationalist neighbor. So you have in the book title, sweet and spicy, right? Mixed together. Because one sounds like a heavy metal album from the 80s. And the other sounds like a I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that.

I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to tell me that. or Dio. Oh my gosh. These old clamor hard rock bands. You are in the right department, sir. Oh man. The eighties were the best seventies eighties nineties with the post-punk scene. We can, we can do that. I'm into that. Okay. Let's start with, well, first of all, how

to love your Christian national state. What, I guess let's just start with the backstory. What led you to want to write this kind of book? Cause you could have just given a, what is Christian nationalism? Maybe the critique of Christian nationalism. There's several books out there like that. This one, I don't think there's anything that is in this lane. So I couldn't find one, so I wrote one. I didn't want to write a book. I don't like writing. I'm not a good writer, but I became lead. So I met the Lord at the church I'm now the lead pastor of. Met the Lord in about 2001, came on staff in 2006, became lead pastor in 2015. And I thought I knew what I was getting into, end of 2015, roll into 2016. And I remember staying up all night,

November 16, watching the election and like, oh, this is a surprise. And I went to work the next day, two of my staff members are out in the parking lot crying, go into the office, two of my other staff members are celebrating. And I remember thinking, like as a brand new lead pastor, like, oh, this is going to be harder than I thought. From 2016 to 2020, we had a steady, steady resistance to our work. And again, we're a 47-year-old non-denominational church. We've been involved in conversations about racial reconciliation, care for refugees, immigrants, all that for years. My predecessor did it. Never advocated for a candidate. To my knowledge, didn't advocate for any local candidates or anything like

that. It was very much kingdom-oriented, missional mindset, social justice. I learned about social justice from a John Stott book. I just thought this is all what we're doing. Based on our responses in that season, would have people coming up to me in the lobby, putting their index finger and pointer finger in my sternum, saying, hey, don't bring that liberal trash to the house of God. And I'm like, Ethel, what are you talking about? We're talking about caring for refugees, which we've been doing for 25 years. By the end of 2020, 80% of the congregation that was there in 2016 had left.

Most of them had redeployed to congregations led by like Mark Driscoll. There's a congregation down the street from me that hosts monthly Turning Point USA rallies. So Dream City Church. So anytime now President-elect Trump would come to town, that's where he would be hosted just down the street. And at the same time, I'm reeling from this loss trying to figure out what is going on. I wasn't trying to yell and scream and kick people. These are my people.

These are my mothers and fathers in the faith. So Friday the 13th of March of 2020, which is when we decided to go to online services in light of the COVID pandemic, through that year was just receiving, you know, every other day, emails, phone calls, text messages that were accusatory, bad faith. And a lot of it was around, again, responses to George Floyd, face masking, the fact that I would not endorse a person's preferred candidate was viewed as a signal that I was actually secretly for the other side. Oh, interesting.

And so, yeah, at 2021, I start getting flyers in the lobby, I'm shaking hands after service, and people are handing me flyers to Turning Point USA events. And they said, Pastor Caleb, there's a revival happening just down the street. And I look at the flyer and it's red, white, and blue and pictures of massive crowds with American flags. There might have been a bald eagle on it. And I'm looking at this flyer and I'm like, that's weird that they would say revival, because this looks

like a rally. I mean, I've been to dozens of political rallies, even at churches. It's how strange they would use revival. So, one of my elders and I went, because we were getting a lot of these invites from folks who were in our congregation at the time. And it was terrifying. Roomful of thousands of people. They sang three worship songs that we sing in our church. They did like the sinner's prayer, if you wanna receive Jesus, slip up that hand. They took an offering and then they invited

the leader of Turning Point USA, Charlie Kirk, out. And at most political rallies, someone will say things like, hi, I'm candidate so and so or a pundit so and so, and I'm here to advocate for my position, thanks to the host church. They go out of their way to make sure that they're communicating this ain't church. This was going out of its way to communicate we have in church. So Charlie gets up and he says, the word of God says, and he proceeds to preach, quoting scripture, and then directly tethering it to combative, culture war-y postures towards whatever his favorite issues were, gun rights, school choice, things of that nature. And what was terrifying to

me is I'm watching people in the room raise their hands, say amen and hallelujah. Wow. It is a spiritual experience. And so I was not only disturbed by this, I thought these are my, I mean, I was watching some of my own people at the time in the room and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you know, how do I engage this? And I started with the approach, gosh, you know, how do, how do I engage this? And I started

with the approach, this is a heresy to fight. And if I could just out Bible these people, okay, then like I'll use all my Bible skills, you know, Preston, like I'm just going to get them and I'm going to get them with all these magic verses and it's just going to radically radically change their mind. And then they'll see the way of truth more clearly and we'll go back to normal. And I became quite combative in that posture. And then one day I had a meeting with the regional director of church engagement from Turning Point USA, who wanted to sell me their latest, you know, biblical citizenship curriculum so we could do it at our church for smuggling. And she said something that radically changed

my heart and mind. She's saying things that I think are outlandish. You know, Pastor Caleb, as you well know, we have to stand for what the Bible says about our God-given right to bear arms. And you know, Pastor Caleb, we have got to rally together and protect our God-given right to school choice, et cetera, et cetera. Now, however you view gun rights and school choice, that's fine, but the Bible does not directly address the issues. It's the God-given that the Bible says part, yeah.

And so we have this conversation and I'm thinking like, I'm just gonna hit her with the Bible and then it's gonna be great. So I'm asking questions like, what portion of scripture are you thinking of that shapes our views on gun rights? And there's nothing there. She's like, well, you would know you're a pastor. So she would deflect. And I'm like, I... You tell me. Yeah. But she said something, this is what changed my life. She said, you know, Pastor Caleb, politics is really important, but at the end of the day, I just want to follow Jesus.

And my heart softens and she says, or I asked her, I said, tell me, how did you meet Jesus? She said, oh, last year at a turning point USA rally. Oh my God. And that's when I sens rally. Oh my God. And that's when I sense the spirit of God. It's one of those like metanoia experiences where you just like complete mind altering, life altering experience.

I sense the spirit of God. She's a new Christian. For one, she's just a brand new. She's a year old Christian. A, new Christian. B, all of her discipleship was inside this movement. Right. And I sense the spirit of God say, Campbell, you're an idiot. These people do not need an enemy to fight them. They need a missionary

to reach them. And so that was it for me. That was the aha moment. And I started applying missiological tools to Christian nationalism in America as a movement, less about a political ideology and more about viewing it as a tribal identity and a spiritual idolatry that's all packaged up with this syncretistic version of Americana mixed with certain aspects of Christianity like missionaries do all over the world. They engage syncretism, they engage empire worship. And so, taking a missiological view is what set me on this path. Why I wrote the book was in that season, the number one pastoral question I was getting from my congregation was, Pastor Caleb, what do I do with my Aunt Betty?' She's yelling and screaming

at the 12-year-old's birthday party about lizard people running the government. And- We all have an Aunt Betty. Yeah, everybody's got Aunt Betty. Your cousin Jimmy, who just bought body armor for their two-year-olds for the impending race, whatever it is.

And noticing that a lot of this pushback I was receiving in the congregation was all tethered to this impoverished theology of power that's become manifest in many ways, but in my community, American Christian nationalism. And people were giving themselves over to it because their anxiety was sky high. But those who weren't giving themselves over to it, who were trying to follow the way of Jesus, didn't know what to do. And so, there's a lot of great books analyzing Christian nationalism politically, sociologically, historically, psychologically. I was begging for something pastorally and missiologically. Where are those books? And I couldn't find one, so I started putting pen to paper. High quality education is a significant need all over the world.

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our bonus material that Patreon supporters get. So we are going to two bonus Q and A's per month for all the different paid levels. Silver level gets access to ask questions for the Q and A episode. And also you will get access to Exiles and Babylon archived content, which we'll be releasing different videos every month. Also access to bonus research episodes that I'm gonna record from time to time, access to rough drafts of certain things I'm working on, which is a little scary for me to let people look into that because it's a rough draft.

Gold and Gold Plus members, we have monthly Zoom chats and all the other perks that the other tiers get access to as well. So again, if you want to support the show, it really, really does help us to flourish as a ministry. Again, patreon.com forward slash theology and the raw. I will see you in the community. Let's maybe go back to the basics and define Christian nationalism. Yeah. Because right now, it's like we're assuming that it's a people to be reached rather than a movement to be embraced. Yes.

Now, my audience, I mean, most of my audience probably doesn't even need this, but yeah, I think it'd be good to just define, because I think sometimes Christian nationalism, we think of this proud boys, white nationalists, leaders on J6, but then some people define it just more like just any kind of patriotic Christian or somebody who's more into right-wing politics and left-wing, whatever. So how do you define Christian nationalism? So I view Christian nationalism in America as three things at the same time. One, a political ideology, namely Christians should be in charge of the state in order to protect and propagate their way of being in the world. Christian, so not

people, not that the state should reflect biblical values because I see that kind of on both sides, but specifically we need Christians leading this country. Yeah, so nationalism is a political ideology. When you put a modifier in front of it, it's always describing who should be in charge. So Irish nationalism is a conversation that Ireland has been having for years. Who gets to be in charge? So in Northern Ireland, you have a conversation of should the British be in charge of our nation or should Irish, right? So ethnic nationalism, you put a modifier in front of it, Romanian, English, whatever, it's trying to signal who should

be in charge. There's religious nationalism, Hindu nationalism, Muslim nationalism, Christian nationalism is just Christian should be in charge of the nation, the nation state. It's more than a political ideology in America. It is also a tribal identity. It's a way to refer to a specific people group who have identifiable origin story, taboos, fears, hopes for the future, music, food, language, insider boundaries that discern insider from outsider. Thinking as a missionary, there's tools available to us to identify people groups. If you've ever, I come in an evangelical space, there's all this conversation about reaching

identifiable people groups. And those are usually bounded up by a variety of different identifiers, usually language, shared origin story, taboos, et cetera. So it refers to a specific people group. American Christian nationalism, you could think of it in contradistinction to the coastal elite or the woke, those people. So there's those people and we're the insiders. Most American Christian nationalists will simply refer to themselves as real Americans. However, there's a good portion of them who will refer to themselves as Christian nationalists. So tribal identity.

And then third, thinking missiologically, is spiritual idolatry in its current manifestation. Two things, one, syncretism, the conflation of certain aspects of Americana with the Christian faith. An example of this may seem innocuous, but it's a great example. In many American church hymn books, which are full of sacred music, you will find songs that Christians around the world can sing like Amazing Grace or the Old Rugged Cross. And then there's a section of patriotic hymns that are not meant to venerate the triune

God but meant to venerate the power of the state. And so that's a conflict in the lived experience of the user, it's syncing up those two things. Also as a spiritual idolatry is empire worship. So, this is a leveling up the power of the state or the empire to an almost divine, if not divine status. Statements like Ben Carson made a couple of few months ago saying that the United States Constitution is divinely inspired. Riffing on the biblical language of the inspiration of scripture. I heard one pastor say that the United States Navy is God's right hand of justice in the world.

Again, conflation and then worship elevation. So political ideology, Christians should run the government, tribal identity, specific people group, third spiritual idolatry. It is not conservatism and it's not Christians engaging in government. Okay. So, so, so what, what if, what if one of those pieces was missing? Cause I know, I would know people that might not sign off on that first one, but the other two, they very much would like they would say, even like, let's just say Donald Trump, our new president, president elect, whether he's a Christian

or not, they would say, I don't really care. God use Cyrus. You know, he's not my pastor. He's the leader of the country. I don't need him to be a Christian, but they would very much sign off on the other two pieces you mentioned. Would that still, would you still say that is a kind of Christian nationalism or is the kind of need all three pieces for it to be, to fit the definition that you're working with? Yeah, I think it's like the person I think you and I grew up in the same era of compact discs and cassette tapes on a on a portable boom box. And the best boom boxes on the front not only had play rewind stop, they also had these

dials called an equalizer where you can turn the bass and treble and mids up. I would crank that bass way up. Oh, yes. And depending on what kind of music you were listening to, you'd equalize it differently. American Christian nationalism is currently expressed in the lived experience of the average person who's part of the movement, the equalizers are different. So there are some for whom the political ideology is sky high and the spiritual ideology is low. These like cultural Christians who are advocating for American Christian nationalism, their equalizers on the left are a bit up and they kind of redefine Christianity in that way. I think the Cyrus thing is the exception that

proves the rule. They're grasping for some kind of biblical framework to make sense of a blatantly non-Christian acting person being in charge of a Christian people. However, I would notice that many evangelical leaders are projecting the term evangelical onto, in this case, Trump. He's a baby Christian, he's a new Christian, that kind of thing. And in most of the Christian National Circles

that I've been a part of, so I've been to dozens of these rallies, revivals. Really? Yeah, I spent two years undercover in Turning Point USA. I'm officially a biblical citizenship coach. Cause I wanted to learn that I went through the coach training and went through all the curriculum so I could lead classes.

Are you like a mole or are you just? Preston, my namesake. Am I exposing you? No, no, no, no, no, I'm out. Like I wrote a book. And I talk about some of this in the book, but yeah, my namesake, Caleb, he's one of the two spies that went to the promised land

and came back and told the truth. Oh, wow, okay, okay. And Preston, I'll tell you this much. I was 40 years old when I started that work. And do you know how Caleb in the Bible was when he did his work? He was 40. He was 40. He was 40.

Now, if I was a Pentecostal, I would say that's a word. I am a Bible church pastor, so I was just saying that's a coincidence. Okay. Being inside of this movement though, you will hear things like the government needs to promote Christian values. The question then is which

ones? Right, yeah. Like the fruit of the spirit. I mean, this is the historical debate within Christianity for 1700, like this side of Constantine, we've been having this argument about how do we do it? Like, can the government, which bears the sword, propagate the way of the lamb who calls us to bear the cross. Right. And I know you've done a lot of work on that

with the concept of exile and how that shapes our understanding of the church. But Christian nationalism is not Christians engaging in politics. Okay. It is Christians rallying themselves together to by Machiavellian means take over in order to enforce. That's another, it's kind of like gain power at all costs

kind of thing, right? I think that Christians engaging in government, Philippians chapter two is a great example. Be a servant. I think public service is a great, like a great working metaphor for anyone who serves in government to see how their faith shapes their work in government. It's not using my power to lord over and dominate over others who are not like me. It's the posture of the lamb, Philippians chapter two, in order to serve. Which makes no

sense if you're operating in a Machiavellian system. And that's the beauty and power and radical nature of the cruciform life is it does not make sense unless Easter happens. I think also, and this is maybe a tangent, we don't need to chase down, but the higher up you go in the form of governmental office or power, I think the harder it will get to maintain a truly holistic set of Christian values. I'm not saying you can't. I've never said Christians can't serve in government authorities, but I think there's a big difference between, you know, running for city council so that

you can make, put more speed bumps in a neighborhood where two kids have been run over by cars or whatever versus the more higher levels of office. I have a buddy, a good friend, really good friend who ran for, he was actually running for Senate and he, it was brilliant, extremely good across the board, but he says it's impossible. I could only raise a million dollars. I w I need at least $15 million to just get on the board because you have to pay all these advertising. You have to get up there and the systems rig to where you have to either be extremely wealthy or Curry, Curry up, Curry favor from really wealthy people. Yeah. And he's like, he's said, it matter of fact, like that's just,

you can't, unless you have millions of million dollars or access to millions of millions. I'm like, well, that's right there. That's not like that. That goes contrary to like after either be wealthy or curry up to people with a lot of money to gain power. That just seems to flip Mark 10 back on its head when Jesus flipped it or right. You know, so even things like that, like, I think there's just so many things built into the system, the harpy go. That's like, could you really love your enemy, turn the other cheek, not curry up to wealthy people, you know, uh, and actually make it to the top or near the top of, of the high level positions. I just, I don't know, I'm skeptical. Maybe. Yeah. I, I, I hope this isn't,

um, uh, a shameful thing, but most of what I know about our government is what I learned from the West Wing. And for those who are not familiar with it. I never watched the show. And it was in my era. I can't believe I never watched it. Allow me to regale you. Of course it's all a dramatization

and of course all the caveats. There's this one episode where the president who Martin Sheen is the actor and he is a man of faith, Catholic faith and he's portrayed, he is as an actor, but he's also portrayed as a president who has a deep faith as a Catholic. And there's an episode where he has to order a hit, an assassination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the tension between him and one of his staffers, it's a great dramatization of the real tension

that Christians should feel when they're called to execute and exercise power over other people. should feel when they're called to execute and exercise power over other people. In the 1940s, the United States military dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Japanese newspapers called them the Christian bombs. The impact that that had on Christian mission is incalculable. Yes, the more power, whether it's in government, whether it's your bank account, whether it's in business, whether it's as a pastor of a congregation, the more power that you've been entrusted with, the more woe to you needs to become very, very poignant for us. Woe to the rich, woe to the powerful.

I mean, Jesus said it's easier for the camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the rich to enter the kingdom. Why? Because we're so easily seduced by power and the incentive structure is so powerful. And you see it in government spaces. you see it in me and my peers, the temptation to leverage my power to protect and propagate my institution, my brand, my

name. I mean, that's a palpable temptation and it's really easy to throw a little God talk on it to justify a corrupt vision of power. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I definitely agree. I'm curious. This is a question I constantly have and I go back and forth on it and I don't know the answer to it and I have friends that will give different responses. How big widespread is Christian nationalism? Because I think even in the front of your book, you talk about it being like one of the fastest growing or like, this is a, this is a serious, serious thing that keeps growing, growing more and more people are attracted to it. And I honestly, some days I'm like, is it

another day? I'm like, yeah, like you go online, you look at things like January six, whatever. And, and, um, but then I look around like my life and I, I preach and teach at many, many different conservative churches, at least evangelical. And I don't, I don't, I don't know even when's the last time I met somebody that's like a, even would vote for Trump or at least admit it out loud, you know, like it's, uh, I could tell Trump joked all day long and everybody's hooting and hollering at these are churches that believe in inerrancy, traditional sexual ethic. They might even hold conservative values, but it's like, I don't, but obviously, you know, the majority of the country voted for trial. You know, so they're out there.

Yeah. So I don't know. Do we even know if it's, is it growing? Is it really a powerful movement? Is it a loud minority that looks loud online, but isn't in's, is it growing? Is it really a powerful movement? Is it a loud minority that looks loud online, but isn't in reality? Or is it like actually a thing that's like, no, this is, and maybe depending on where you live, maybe you're in Phoenix, Arizona. So you're like, oh dude, I could introduce you to a few.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's regionally hot pockets where you just see like, like here we can fill up the convention center with a hundred thousand people. At some of these rallies. What you would say are clear, these are Christian. Well, here's what I would say is that the messaging from the stage is in my definition

of American Christian nationalism. So I've been to lots of these gatherings. I went to a pastor's gathering in 2022 in San Diego. That was the first ever Turning Point USA pastors gathering summit and 500 pastors from the Southwest were there. And the messaging from the stage was explicitly Christian nationalist. This statement, God is a Christian nationalist was made from the stage to rousing applause. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The question of how big it is, what I would say, two things to consider. One, everyone's on a spectrum. This movement is a spectrum. There is, if you think about the entry level, it's like click and like on a YouTube video, share it on the internet. You move a little bit towards the middle, you're cutting checks, you're making arguments at the dinner table, all the way down to the far extreme, which is you are ready to do violence for this movement, January 6th, Kyle Rittenhouse, that type of thing. Most people are not on the extreme, but those... So for every one person on the extreme,

like I'm willing to do violence, they're propped up by a community of a thousand people that they know who wink at it, who, ooh, that's a little distasteful, I would never do that, but I'm glad you're doing it. Yeah. And again, so again, there's a spectrum. And I think the national surveys,

they're a little bit all over the map as to what they define as Christian nationalists. For some, it's like if you think America should be Christian, that that makes a Christian nationalist. I think that most Christians who are evangelical want to evangelize. And so they naturally answer that question of, yeah, I want everyone to be a Christian. They're not thinking in terms of, I think Christians should take over government power and force Christianity on people.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one thing. So that more extreme version is, yeah, that's not going to represent a high percentage of people. But if you take the whole kind of spectrum from the low level to high level, that is, and would you say growing? I don't know. It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. I think in my community, here's what I am comfortable saying right now with confidence is that what was primarily relegated to hushed kitchen table conversations is now celebrated

at the church potluck. So I don't think it's growing. I think just exposing what was already there. People are speaking out loud what they used to maybe keep. Yeah, they used to think, oh, I can't say this at church. It's not polite, you know, it's polite company. Maybe in my Bible study, I could say it, but certainly I'm gonna get my hands smacked by the pastor.

Now the pastor's saying it. Okay. And the other thing, Preston, what I would say that is disconcerting is the lack of, how should I say? is disconcerting is the lack of, how should I say, your middle of the road evangelical pastors saying this is a problem. And they'll say, like the pastors who are comfortable saying the woke agenda is scary, bad, the queer agenda,

we gotta fight that. So if you're comfortable saying that, and then there's nothing about, and this individualistic, Christian nationalistic, corrupt view of power, that's also bad. That tells me one of two things, either they're unaware, which I totally get, or two, there's pressure from within the power structure of the congregation to not call it out. Elder board, donors, hey, don't you, don't, like I like what's going on over there, pastor,

don't you say anything. Right, right, right. You just slam on that, the side on the left, and I'll keep cutting checks. You start slamming this stuff and I'm, so I don't know, but my suspicion is that there's some of that going on. I don't know, but my suspicion is that there's some of that going on. When people like Russell Moore get called lib, I mean, I just saw yesterday, John Piper

is getting slammed by evangelical pastors for not celebrating how the election turned out. Johnny Pipes. So that tells me- Farewell, John Piper. That tells me there's something in the foundation or in the studs of the house that we can't quite see. And then the third thing I would just conclude with this, a lot of people say, you know, well, it's not all bad or eat the meat, spit out the bone, that kind of thing.

Yeah, sure. But in my understanding, this is actually poison. Yeah. It's a false gospel. It's a slight deviation from the actual gospel, which makes the medicine go down smoother, but it's still a false gospel. And one disgusting metaphor that my friend gave me is,

how much poop do you allow in the brownie mix till you throw out the whole batch? No, I don't present a great. And so- The syncretism piece for me is- Yeah. I mean, all three of the pillars are all disturbing. I think if I was gonna pick one as particularly toxic,

it would be just the syncretism piece where you are weaving together the biblical story, the gospel with the American narrative. And to me, that is, I've always, I mean, before Christian nationalism was even a term and before it maybe got big, I mean, that's always kind of been there from the beginning. I mean, from the founding, I mean, leaders throughout the history of the founding of America have done that. And I think that is just absolutely toxic and damaging. And to me, that's a red alert.

Like this absolutely needs to be addressed. I would say any form of syncretism, whether you weave together like wealth or racism, or something where you're trying to take some ideology that's just really incompatible with a Christian worldview and try to smash it together. That, that, um, so dangerous. And yet it's so compelling. If I wasn't a Christian dude, I would be a, I would be a Marine. I would be a, a so Patriot. I would be, I get such a compelling narrative, dude. And, and

for years, I mean, I just adopted it until I started kind of like, whoa, where's this in the Bible, you know? Yes. So I understand. This is, I think, maybe to your missional point. Like, it sounds like you're like, I get why people can be sucked into this, dude. It's a powerful narrative. Super powerful. Bro, I grew up on Mel Gibson movies. Like, I, my, and this is, I think, important. Like Peter in Gethsemane, when I feel anxious about loss, I also reach for the sword. I totally get it. I got four kids, five to 14.

I'm terrified of some of the things I'm seeing in the world. And I want to go down to the gun shop. I wanna put the extra, but like, I'm ready, man. I want, if something happens to me that I think is unjust, it's Peter and guess how many times, let's get that sword. Yeah, yeah. And I have had to, and still am in the process of detoxifying my heart from that commitment to

empire. And I don't know if I'll ever be over it or if it's just a lifelong thing. Yeah. Well, I think it's a constant. It's not something you just do once and you're done. It's like a hunger pain that comes up every day. I want to draw a cross on my firearm to justify its use. I get it. I love your honesty. But no, I mean, the Christian world view is counterintuitive. Nonviolence is counterintuitive.

Love of your enemy is completely counterintuitive. It's not, it does not come naturally. Like that's why most of the New Testament was written. I mean, you got the Gosp and then of course, acts is lovely, but the epistles are like, no, this is actually true. Knock it off. Right? Like, oh, you're still taking each other to a court?

Knock it off. Remember? The epistles are addressing the church that weren't doing what Jesus told them to do. Yeah. All the entire history of the church is filled with people who say, I believe, help my unbelief. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And help my unbelief looks like I don't want to pray today. And it also looks like I need to pick up the sword to make the world just because God is not going to ultimately get his justice. Or God does not have tomorrow in his hands, so I'm going to go get it. That's also unbelief. And it's, I think Luther is attributed to saying all of life is repentance. We're all Peter in Gethsemane being told, put your sword away.

Hey, we have some people tuning in from the Patreon. Yeah. You guys can go ahead and start asking some questions in the chat right now. Uh, I do have one more question for, uh, for Caleb. Can you, do you have like one story or maybe a couple of success stories where your approach to loving your Christian nationalist neighbor has worked? Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And what, what advice can you give us in, in, you know, Thanksgiving's coming up, at least at the time of recording? Yeah.

Well, my advice would be buy my book because, Preston, I am a capitalist before I'm anything else. There you go. So in my book, the second half of it is, it's like a field manual. Like when Aunt Betty is yelling and screaming at the 12-year-old's birthday party or Uncle Jim's talking about immigrants at Thanksgiving, what are some methods you can use that are not confrontational but are also not abdicating the opportunity? A lot of that is my own work.

Galatians 6, 1 and 2 says, "'If any one of y'all is caught up in a transgression "'or evil,' so ensnared, caught up, "'you who are spiritually mature, "'seek to restore that person gently.'" So our invitation is to recognize they're caught up in something. My posture is gently seeking to restore.

Then it says this, watching out for your own self, lest you too be tempted. 98% of this work is in me. Good missionaries, before they enter into that mission field or missional moments, they do a lot of prayer, they do a lot of rest, they have a prayer team around them,

because it's taxing, right? It takes a lot of work and energy to have a hospitable, cruciform conversation with someone who's saying things that are absolutely outlandish. And so, I would say before that Thanksgiving dinner, just recognize you're entering into a mission field and it is going to require a lot from you. Just notice, I think this is instructive, notice how frequently in the Gospels Jesus ghosted people to go take a nap and pray. That's instructive for me.

This will require a lot of me, like going to the gym. You don't go and then come back two hours later and crush it. You got to rest. And then in the book, I talk about like tactical ways to engage in humble subversion, things to avoid, things to affirm. So I'm glad to talk more about that. You talked about success stories. Well, there's three versions of success.

The first one is always, am I faithful in the moment that Jesus has given me? Regardless of the impact this has on that person, if I'm seeking to engage them missionally and they never change, that's not on me. That's not on me. Like I can't change people's minds, only the spirit of the living God can do that. What I can do is keep my side of the street clean

and I can be faithful to the moment that Jesus has given me. So I think being faithful in the moment, regardless of the outcome, that's win number one. Sometimes people will say things like, I've never thought of it that way, or you've given me a lot to think about. And I think that's a huge win. Most of where American Christian nationalism is operating

is not in the head, but in the heart. It's an answer to the question of, how do I stop feeling anxious about ethnic erasure? That my way of being in the world is under imminent threat, and I need something that's powerful to stop that from happening. So I'm giving myself over to American Christian nationalism. And in the context of hospitality, if I can have a healthy conversation, my counterpart feels

safe with me. And then we can go from head to heart where they start thinking more deeply about an issue, immigration, gender, whatever it is. And they say, I've never thought of it that way in a calm manner. That's a huge win. That is. And then there has been like Pauline level metanoia moments where someone just has like, you know, like, whoa,

I never put the pieces together like that. That's happened to me a few times. And it's all one of the consistent themes is I have deep relationship and trust with them. Interesting. They know me, they know my family. I know have deep relationship and trust with them. They know me, they know my family, I know them, they know that I love them. And Jonathan Haidt talks about this in the book, The Righteous Mind. I was waiting for you to mention Jonathan.

The head doesn't change until the heart is open and safe. And so if we're coming in with arguments and threats and how dare you think that accusations, the heart will just shield up and we're not going anywhere. So hospitality, curiosity, compassion, thinking like a missionary, this person may believe and think things that are abhorrent to me. I want them to follow Jesus or I want them to reconnect with Jesus. Having that as our mind can be a helpful guide. Glad to talk more about that.

Yeah, that's good. Okay, so Phil wants to know who is the best example of being a Christian and holding public office? Do you have an opinion about this? I'm an amateur when it comes to government and politics. I know that some people really, to government and politics. I know that some people really, they'll look in like the reform tradition, like people like, is it Bovink? Oh. Folks like that.

You're going way back, okay. Was he a politician? I thought so. Maybe, I don't know. Kuiper, I don't really, I don't actually read books. I just kind of nod along while my friends who do read books say stuff. I always thought like Jimmy Carter. I don kind of nod along while my friends who do read books say stuff.

I always thought like Jimmy Carter. I don't know too much about him. Yeah, I mean, I would say in my experience, I think what I've seen of Carter post presidency, cause I wasn't alive during his presidency, there's a lot about him that I think is in line with his evangelical convictions. His work with Habitat for Humanity, his Pleas for Peace. There's probably a bunch of other stuff

that's like he fell short because everybody does. I do think Preston, you're right. I would encourage people to look locally. Right, yeah. Like I know in my community, there's folks who are serving on school boards and at City Hall that, you know, that they're practicing their faith,

they're doing Sunday faith. They're doing Sunday school on Sundays. Any more with social media. I'm not sure that I don't know that in my own heart, I trust anything that I'm fed through a screen. Like it's a lot of it just feels staged and like for the gram, you know, so like when a politician is in church, I'm like, I don't know, you know, I don't know that person. So I always say, look local. Matt, Matt just says this guy's good. So thank you, Matt. There was a bunch of other questions and now I can't find them on the chat. So this is the first time from my audience, public audience, this is, we're trying something new or we're allowing some people from the community to chime in here with some questions.

So, so your book, it gives a lot of practical steps. You're saying like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying,

like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, like, you're saying, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. for me that I've seen both in literature that I read and anecdotally is, is finding some

point of agreement. You know, like you said, if somebody's just so filled with anxiety that this country that they love is crumbling and our kids are in trouble and all these like there's, you could say, Oh, you've bought into fear-mongering propaganda or whatever, but can you not resonate with this or something there you can't resonate with, you know? Yes. Or even like, even if he can't stand Trump and your uncle Bob, absolutely. You know, he showed up the Thanksgiving with the mega hat and he's just elated, elated best, best. He's happier now than it was when he first got converted. You know, like, like Like is there something as much as he maybe can't stand Trump, like is there something

you could resonate with? If there's not, then I would maybe push it back on you and say, maybe you're drinking deep from the opposing propaganda too, because nobody is 100% evil or 100% good. Like, is there not? Yeah, Sultanistan says, wouldn't it be so easy if we could just round up all the evil people and put them over there? The line of good and evil cuts through the center of every human heart.

And I think you're right. And I think connecting with, you know, Uncle Bill, I would invite people to think deeply about what if you were called to be a missionary to the Taliban? Like, what would you have to do? And it would be to one of the things would be to develop the muscle and the spiritual maturity to sit through a conversation with someone who's espousing beliefs that you absolutely find abhorrent and discern the shared value. For instance, Aunt Betty's yelling and screaming at the 12-year-old's birthday party about immigrants.

The problem is not primarily her views on immigration. The problem is she's yelling and screaming at the 12-year-old's birthday party, which tells you that it's something inside of her heart. She's not talking about policy. She's talking about deep feeling and needs. You might say, Aunt Betty, tell me a story about why that matters to you. Well, I'm so scared for little Johnny and Sally.

Boom, right there we can connect. I also am concerned about Johnny and Sally. Tell me more about that. Moreover, I want to honor her, not for her abhorrent beliefs. I want to honor that she loves Johnny and Sally so much that she's giving energy to this. And I might say, you know, and let's say she says, you know, that's why we need to build the border wall or whatever, kick out all the others, whatever the thing is. I'm not

going to agree to that necessarily, but I can agree. Aunt Betty, I honor you for caring so much about it. I also value Johnny and Sally, and moreover, I think the government should do its job to protect Johnny and Sally. I want them to have economic security and safety. And this is where humble subversion comes in. You know, Aunt Betty, that Bible you gave me

when I graduated high school, I've been reading it. And I feel a tension between my desire for Johnny and Sally to grow up in a safe place and love their country and walk down to the ice cream store without fear of being abducted. I want that so bad. And I am striving to follow the way of Jesus who says things like, welcome the stranger into your home and take care of the foreigner and care for the immigrant. And when you've done so into the least of these, you've done so into me. And I feel a tension in my own heart. How do we work for safety for Johnny and Sally and faithfully follow the radical way of Jesus?

What do you think? And what I've done is I've gotten down to the actual tension point, which by the way, I also fundamentally feel. I don't pick up the same sword she picks up, but I care about Johnny and Sally. And I don't wanna welcome the stranger, that's scary, Preston.

I mean, that would put me at risk, I'm terrified of that. So I feel a real attention. She's also probably been fed or has come across instances where an undocumented immigrant raped somebody at five year old kid or whatever. And you know, I, I, I'm not verified this, but I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's been cases of that, you know? And if, if, if, if sit, sit in her shoes and be fed, you know, several of these stories, of course, you're going to be like, what are we doing? Like, and I'm scared for my kids. And you know, like you can resonate with the, like you said, the heart that is leading to maybe a, a unhelpful, maybe response or whatever,

you know, Speaker 3rd-5 The thing that's coming out of her mouth is a solution to a deeper problem. Yes. That, and at the end of the day, only Jesus can solve. Like the answer to the question of my heart's anxiety is not in a policy or a political actor, it's in Jesus. And as a missionally minded person, I want to reintroduce her to that piece. Because she's, again, the problem is she's yelling at the 12-year-old's birthday party, whatever the ideology that's coming out of her mouth. And just, my hope is that this conversation with her is planting seeds in the garden of her mind that will grow into the fruit of repentance.

That's it. That she will one day be at the kitchen sink with, you know, entertainment media blasting on the TV, washing her cup of coffee, and she's looking out the window, and all of a sudden it hits her. What if Jesus wants to reform how I'm currently thinking about this issue? Who can I talk to about this? Because I can't go and talk to my Christian nationalist buddies. They'll kick me out. This is one of the key markers of a corrupt movement. If you ask the wrong questions, you're under threat of exile.

If you say the inside part out loud and you're a fear of expulsion from the communion, that's not real community. And so she feels that threat. So who can I talk to? I know I can talk to my nephew. He didn't agree with me, but he was kind to me. I think I'll talk to my nephew. He didn't agree with me, but he was kind to me. I think I'll give him a call. That is the win that any missionary in any culture is if you become a trusted

conversation partner to talk about things of God. So good. All right, one more question. I'll let you go. This comes from Rollins. We've kind of maybe been addressing this, but love your further thoughts. So what are the pieces of common ground that you find most, that you most often find with people wrapped up in Christian nationalism? So specifically Christian nationalism, is there kind of a common ground where, man, I could connect with them on this thing here? Yeah, there are many. And again, I talk about this more in the book, you should buy 10 copies

today, capitalism. And in almost every case, love for one's people. So patriotism, C.S. Lewis talks about patriotism in his book, The Four Loves. As a love for one's family extended out to a people. So the land, the language, the music, the food, the way that the earth smells when it rains in your community, all of that patriotic love, which is a good love. Boy, that's a lot of cohesion. A lot of American Christian nationalism have been stirred up into a space of anxiety and rage where that patriotic love is distorted into a nationalistic power mongering

in order to protect that which it loves. So it says, if you love America, if you have a patriotic love, we need to be Machiavelli in order to protect the thing we love. And what I want to do is connect on that shared love and then say, how does the way of Jesus, you know, enrich that love? And how do I entrust that love for my people, not into the hands of a sword bearer, but into the hands of the one who bore the cross and then conquered over death? So my argument to Christian nationalists who are doing this for a love for one's country is to say, if you are to entrust that which you love into a power greater than you, which is the greatest power, the one who bears the sword or the one who bears the cross.

My understanding of the Christian faith is that it's actually the way of the cross that is the most supreme power in the universe. It destroys, defeats, and disarms the great enemy of death. And so by entrusting my people into the hands of Jesus, I'm entrusting that which I love into the most powerful hands in the cosmos. Even though it's very seductive to think that the one who bears the sword is the most powerful one in the cosmos. Dude, that's so powerful, man. That's so's so how do you disagree with that? I appreciate you, Caleb. The book again is disarming Leviathan would encourage people to pick it up. Thanks for

coming on the Elger on. Really appreciate you, man. Hey, thanks for having me pressing. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors and all high performers and in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas

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