Theology in the Raw - ICE, Migrants, and What's Really Going On in Minneapolis: Carl Nelson, Schelli Cronk, and Dave Brickey

Episode Date: February 11, 2026

I traveled to Minneapolis to sit down with several local Christian leaders to learn what's really going on in the city. To the suprise of no one, what's really going on is far more complex than what you'll hear about in the media. And local churches have come together in beautify and powerful ways to care for those who have been traumatized by recent events. Carl Nelson is the President & Chief Executive Officer for Transform Minnesota--an awesome organization that provides space for pastors and Christian leaders to wrestle through complex issues from a biblical perspective. Schelli Cronk is the COO for Transform Minnesota, and Dave Brickey is the lead pastor of Open Door church, which hosts the Exiles in Babylon Conference. Learn More!https://theologyintheraw.com/exiles26/https://transformmn.orghttps://thedoor.orgSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

All right, welcome to a special episode of Theology in the Raw. I'm here in Minneapolis, Minnesota with three of my friends here who will introduce themselves in a second. And I happen to be here on a trip, but I really wanted to sit down with people who are living in Minneapolis, Christian leaders in the community, who have a really more accurate perspective of what's going on because they live here. And they're doing a lot of just great work in the middle. midst of what has been some really, really challenging times. So we can go around the table here

and just tell us who you are, what you do, and then we'll dive into our conversations. We'll start with you, Shelly. Sure. Hey, everyone. I'm Shelly Kronk. I actually get to serve in two different roles, one with Transform Minnesota, and then I also get to serve with the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and gender with you, Preston. Awesome. Yeah, my name is Dave Bricky. I serve Open Doors. Church of the Open Door is one of their pastors. It's a suburb of the Twin Cities. So, yeah. Awesome. And you host the Exiles of Babylon Conference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's coming up, man.

Coming up. Can't wait. And I'm Carl Nelson. I'm president of Transform Minnesota, work with Shelley, and live here in the city of Minneapolis. What does Transform Minnesota do? Tell us a bit about the work.

Yeah, it's a regional evangelical network of churches. And our role really is to be a place where we connect churches together and equip them. Kind of the brand that we often talk about is a place where Christian leaders engage complex issues, from a biblical perspective. And you've been faced at the very complex issue. Yes.

And so you're, Carl, you're, I mean, you are in the weeds of, I mean, you've been for a while, the topic on a theological level, on an ethical level, but now, I mean, especially in the last couple months on a really practical level. Yeah. I want to, and maybe we could start with you, Carl. Like, my main question is, you know, Minneapolis has been the same. center of the world's attention, I mean, in 2020, unfortunately, and now again. And there's, there's so much, there's so many politically diverse opinions of what's going on from people who

do not live here. And those opinions can sometimes be very confident. I want to know from people living here and not just living in some neighborhood on the outskirts, but you guys are doing work in the city. You're working with people, work with churches. You have a really firsthand account of what's been going on here. So what has been going on here? What are some of the gaps in knowledge? As you see the news and then you see what's in front of you, help fill people in on what's really been going on here.

Well, we're all connected to immigrant families, immigrant churches. One of my connections has been with groups of immigrant pastors. One of the things I would say that I hear from them, as you talk with them about what's experienced in their community, I think it's important for people to know that Christians by and large, and immigrant Christians included, would say, yes, we want effective law enforcement that's targeting violent felons. And so a lot of the protests and a lot of the voices that we see coming out of Minneapolis that people assume, hey, we just don't want ICE in here arresting violent felons.

No, Christians want that. But on the other side, what's happening, and this is maybe the piece that's not getting it out, is that law-abiding immigrants, all across our city, all across our state are being detained, are being harassed, are being arrested. These are, you know, people who have work permits, law abiding, they're legally admitted refugees, people who are following the legal pathway that our government has set out to be here. They are being detained. They're being asked to show papers in a suburban parking lot, you know. Based on, I mean, is it simply skin color access?

Is it something more? It's skin color, its accent. We know that, you know, the ICE agents are running license plates numbers, right? And the registration shows up, you know, based on a name that they think maybe we can find an undocumented immigrant in that car. Let's stop them and see. I know of a woman who's Asian Pacific Islander been part of a suburban church here in Twin Cities for many, many years, U.S. citizen, was stopped in a suburban target parking lot. based on her ethnic look and asked to show her, you know, are you born here?

Are you a citizen? Well, I mean, it's been such an eye-opening experience for me. I'm just relearning or deepening my learning around the posture of listening. Carl, you've helped with that, even being able to connect and meet with pastors of immigrant congregations. And then you hear the stories and you hear, like, I've had a couple moments where I'm like, I thought I knew. I'm like, I don't know the pain that other people are carrying. I thought I knew.

And then secondly, listening to people outside of our state and their read on what's happening in our state, whether it's family or friends, has been eye-opening for me and how I look at what's happening around our nation, around the world that I'm not immersed in. One of the things in Minnesota that really stands out to me is there's this narrative of, darkness and there is a lot of darkness there is a lot of chaos and a lot of pain but in the midst of it there is so much beauty there is so much human on human care that just isn't publicized okay and yeah I mean you know why the the attention economy works on things that are controversial and dark even neuroscience shows us that it works like valkro to our brains and the beautiful things don't imprint in the same way and

So one of the practices for me is like identifying beauty, calling it out, naming it, trying to live into that. And then trying to have productive conversations with people who I'm close to from outside of our state who think they have a good pulse on what's happening. And it is way, it's just a dark narrative with not a lot of light spots. And I'm like, I'm so proud of so many people in our state who are doing good work. The Exiles in Babylon conference is happening again, April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis, and this one is going to be spicy. We're talking about mental health and the gospel. How should the church respond to immigration?

We're also having a dialogical debate about Christians and war with Shane Claiborne and Paul Copan. And we're also having another dialogical debate between Peter Enz and Sandy Richter over the historical reliability of the Bible. We also added a pre-conference addressing how Christians should think about article. official intelligence. We have several experts coming to lead us in that conversation. Other speakers include Dan Allender, Matthew Sorens, Lillianna, Reza, Joshua Smith, Chinway Williams, and several others. And of course, worth the price of admission, Street Hymns is coming back as well, folks. Most of all, the in-person experience at exiles is just super unique. I mean, it's, I don't know. If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about. It's hard to describe. You just got to go

and experience it for yourself. Just head over to theology narra.com to register. We also have a heavily discounted Gen Z price. Don't lie about your age. You've got to be Gen Z. And also discounts on groups of five or more. Again, that's April 30th to May 2nd in Minneapolis. Register at Theologyinthorah.com. So people who don't live here are trying to like kind of educate you who lives here

on kind of what's really going. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not. Yeah, I don't think they would say, I'm trying to educate you. But there's what I've noticed is, very firm points of view, like almost an overconfidence of like I, like my social media feed is, is the accurate one. Like I actually see this clearly. And, and, you know, and grace, grace. Like, I do want to invite people. If you want to talk to somebody who's here,

would love to have that conversation. And a lot of times it's talking points, not invitation into a conversation. And so this is a learning for me, too, as I'm looking at things around the world, to go, I need a practice listening and entering into conversation versus diagnosing the culture. Yeah. One of the things I've been surprised that people I don't think are hearing outside of Minnesota is specifically even in the last four or five weeks the attention and targeting of refugees. So legal refugees, they've been resettled here in Minnesota.

So people that have fled their country because of war, persecution, famine. I mean, very real, very painful circumstances. They've gone through all the vetting. It's taken them years. They've been resettled here. We've told them that they are safe here. We've told them you've done everything right. You've done all the paperwork here.

You're absolutely safe here. And they are no longer safe. So there has been a targeted, appointed targeting of refugees. And they really are, it's very unsettling, I think, for any of us that work with refugees to watch people who feel like they should be safe and they're not. And what they're going through is just, it's re-traumatizing them, which is pain. They basically are having to prove that their situation, that they merit being resettled, which means telling their stories over again, which means being detained over again. And that's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to see happen.

And I don't think, and it's not just one or two. It's not just like this is an isolated incident. And I think the church cares about that. I think the broader church cares about that. I just don't know that they're hearing that. That's okay. So going back to this isn't just an isolated incident. Because I have kind of heard people say, yes, you know, like ICE has done a few things wrong,

whatever, but gosh, they've gotten like thousands of drug delivery. and murderers and rapists and all this stuff. So, like, yes, everybody's going to make some mistakes, but, you know, it's just news just telling you all about, you know, this incident or that incident, but overall, it's not, that doesn't capture the whole story. But I'm hearing all you guys saying, these are not one-off. Like, you just two, three know multiple stories.

Many, yeah. Just among you three. And then people that you know that know people. Yeah. Do you have any stories you can share, shall be? Sure. Yep, I can tell the story. I'll keep the specifics vague.

So my kids have a good friend who was picked up right at the beginning of January. He has very valid status here. Does not have a green card, but his status is valid. They ran his license plate. He was driving on the way to work, saw his name, pulled him over, arrested and detained him. They arrested and detained him at 11. And by 3, he was on a plane to El Paso, 22 years old. So a young kid has done everything right.

Now, he has an immigration attorney, so he's done all the filings. He's, I mean, all everything, he's done everything right. He was in El Paso until Thursday of last week. He was in a detainment center there trying to prove that his status was legal. He came home last week. Just a very traumatizing situation for him. my kids, family friend trying to get him word that we're trying to get him out. His parents, I mean, he couldn't speak to his parents for several days.

He was shackled and handcuffed on the plane. I mean, it's just, it's, yeah. Yeah, so that's, and that's just one story. I have family members that we've told, don't drive anybody else's car. Don't go anywhere by yourself. Don't just simply be based upon family name. So it, there really are. very real, very personal stories.

Here's what I don't understand. And I don't know if you guys know the answer or not. The question I keep asking is, this doesn't, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a legal expert at all. This just seems completely illegal. Are they doing illegal things or is there a federal law or somebody that says in this case, these things are illegal or do we have clarity on that? It's just so bewildering for someone on the outside.

Like, what am I missing here? I think what I can say as a Christian is it's inhumane. Right, so I'm not an attorney. I'm a lawyer. I'll let somebody else decide is it illegal. Right. But I can look at it as a Christian say it's absolutely immoral for sure. It's immoral, yeah. I mean, adding to another story like Shelley said, so here's, this is a nursing mother of a three-month-old baby.

Entered the country as a refugee legally. I've tracked this story by her pastor. Ice went to her house on a Saturday morning and arrested and said, you know, checked her papers and said, we need to re-interview you for your refugee status. So she has legal status. We need to re-interview you. Come with me. So she was separated from her baby. That afternoon, she was on a plane to Texas and was there for almost two weeks before they finally, after reviewing all her paperwork, re-interviewing her, she having to tell her story of persecution and trauma and verifying all the facts that they were asking was finally released.

And then her husband had to drive from here to Texas to pick her up. So of the multiple of the refugees specifically, in fact, this has been almost all of the people who have been arrested and transferred to detention centers in Texas. If by chance they get an attorney or somehow or another they're allowed to, they're released, they're released in Texas. And, you know, people are having to go and pick the, them up or having to buy plane tickets for them to travel back home. And they're released many times without documents.

We know of one man who was released and he was giving his phone and it was almost out of battery power. He was able to call family back here who connected to a pastor in Houston and went and picked them up and several other individual guys who were just, you know, left out on the sidewalk outside of the detention center. And they got reimbursed for the weeks they missed for work and gas money to get back. People have lost their business. Yeah, or cars left on the side of the road with doors ajar.

Cars have been, you know, stuff has been stolen from that. Cars left running. Yeah, so it's been fascinating. And I think you can hold the tension of we believe in law and order. Yeah. And there's something not right here. Like both of those can be true at the same time. Right.

And so, yeah, this transcends, in my mind, politics. Yeah, so when you see the protests, which really have been fairly peaceful. Really? Yes, yeah. Because that's another thing. Yeah, depending on what I watch, it's like the city's burning down. I didn't know if I was going to be able to fly in here if there was still an airport. And how was it for you, Preston?

It was a call. I didn't see an ice agent. It was like, it was just. But this is what people are responding to. This is what people are saying. These are my neighbors. These are my friends. These are my coworkers.

And how how you're treating them is not. okay. So this is what they're responding to. They're not protesting like we don't want law and order. They're not protesting law enforcement. They're protesting the way people we care about are being treated. What you might see around the protest is you know there's a you'll see some videos that you know go viral where you maybe see some interference with a nice officer. Okay. Right. And there's some of that. What you're not seeing is, you know, the videos of 50,000 people that marched downtown Minneapolis very peacefully a couple weeks ago on a Friday on a day when it didn't get above zero degrees here in Minneapolis. Wow.

And those were people that were out there saying exactly like Shelley said, we are out here because these are our neighbors. Their lives are intertwined with us and we see how they're being mistreated and the injustice that's going on. We're not going to stand for it. Wow. And one of the tragic pieces of this is, Yes, it's not all peace. There are people who will notice a cultural moment happening and take advantage of that and create pockets of violence.

Many times they get publicized and can become the dominant narrative in people's minds. And so I just want to name that. Like there is so many beautiful aspects of how people have peacefully stepped into this. And it's been taken advantage of by folks for whatever reason that have had. had ulterior motives. And so for me, with people I know that are outside the state, wanting to fill that picture out more, to go, actually the dominant thing happening here isn't violence and chaos.

That is happening, but it's not the dominant story. And so it's just really important to fill that in for people. And yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of Christian voices. Okay. Lots of churches. Yeah.

Lots of churches. On both sides of the political spectrum. On both sides of political spectrum. Yeah. Speaking out? Speaking out. Yeah. And I would say, you know, here in the Twin Cities, there's a lot of Christian voices speaking

out that maybe before you might be a little surprised. Wow. I mean, there's speaking out and serving. Serving. Really coming together. Because like Dave said, people aren't going to work. They're not leaving their homes. They don't feel safe to drive.

They don't. So they're not earning income. They're not able to pay rent. They're not able to go to the grocery store. And so we've seen just really amazing people, churches, raised up to say, okay, we'll buy groceries, we'll drop them at your door. You don't have to open the door. We're hearing about a lot of people that are just escorting people to their cars

that they have to go to a doctor's appointment. So some really beautiful things where we've seen people come together to say, I'm here to protect the people in my neighborhood. So is there division within the church here on how to respond? Like is there a segment of the church that are like, the more ice, the better? and yeah, they make some mistakes, but this is overall going really well? Or do they see enough on the ground where they're like, because no, I mean, all the stories

you guys share, and I'm sure you can share dozens more. No Christian, I don't care if you have three MAGA hats on your head or how far right you are. No Christian could be like, yes, a legal refugee should be deported, you know, to Texas. There is division. There absolutely is. And it needs to be shepherded carefully within a local church context. And it just, this highlights an underlying aspect of how we're being

disciples in our culture. And we want to keep naming it and keep naming it. Algorithms will create pockets of blindness, blind spots. And crazy thing about blind spots is you don't know you have them. I have them too. It will spread a deceptive message. And it creates an overconfidence in someone's perspective to diagnose of the culture. And so there's an overconfidence where people on the right and left are like,

I actually know what's happening here. You better listen to me. And for me, one of the dominant or one of the passage of scripture I've been so fascinated with is the parable of the wheat and the weeds with Jesus. It's like, there's weeds growing that represent the kingdom of darkness. There's wheat growing that represents the kingdom of God. They're growing together tangled. And the farm workers are like, well, can we pull the weeds? And Jesus is like, No, stop it because you'll pull wheat as well. In other words, I don't trust you to distinguish well between good and evil. So let them grow together.

So we live in a world of overconfidence where even well-meaning Christians are categorizing. Here's the bad people. Here's the good people. And Jesus is saying, actually, you're all kind of blind and not trustworthy to really distinguish what's going on. And now in this century, we have these algorithms that are. truly manipulating and shaping us out of the way of Jesus with a veneer that can say Christian. Yeah. And it becomes so diabolical.

And so, yes, there is a very slow but very pointed way of tending to local congregations that really matters in this season. Wow. Yeah. Gosh. There was that recent protest at the church. You guys familiar with that? Yes. Oh, yeah.

What do you're, so I mean, I saw. Wait, what do you? I didn't see that one. You know, and I watched, like, a lot of people clip here, clip there, different sides, different perspective, different slant, you know, and it's like, I'm just trying to, I've got this, like, like, a puzzle with, like, a few, several pieces missing, you know? What are your thoughts on that?

Was that how would you explain? Somebody says, I don't know what you're talking about. How would you explain being on the ground, probably having a lot more information on it? What happened? You guys are all smiling. Sinister way. I'll say that. We're looking at cars.

What are you missing? So a couple days after that happened, I was at a gathering with a large group of immigrant pastors. And we talked about this, right? These are immigrant pastors, right, whose congregations are suffering greatly like we've just talked about. People not going to church, not going without food. And we talked about this, and I think their statement said it really well. They said, listen, churches and houses of worship are sacred places. and they should be safe from protest and ice enforcement.

Meaning that, yeah, we think that was too far for protest to enter the church because church is a special and sacred place. At the same time, because church is a sacred and special place, we shouldn't have ice enforcement in and around it. And one of the things that they... Is that happening? Ice enforcement in and around churches? I mean, we haven't seen it happen inside of churches, but one of the things, you know, DHS has had a longstanding policy of protected spaces where they don't enforce around schools and churches and hospitals.

But that was removed a year ago. And so it's, you know, it's possible. There isn't a restriction. And in here locally, you know, ICE has been seen around schools, not going into schools that I've heard of, but certainly they've been around there. So I think, you know, I take the lead of immigrant pastors who are the ones who have the highest stake in this of saying, yeah, we want our worship spaces to be protected from protest and from enforcement. Seems fair. Yeah. Or is there anything those of us who live outside the city were unaware of?

Like, I don't even know the story that came in. They're kind of like kids are crying and stuff and they were interrupting the church. service and then you had um uh was the guy that the news anchor yeah yeah sort of don don't love oh don't yeah not a huge i think it was pretty straightforward yeah it is what is i mean i think probably what you saw is what happened i just don't think that's an accurate representation of everything that's happening here and and it was people were very upset in general i mean that was a terribly upsetting week weekend um so But that's not where you say that's not representative at all.

No. No, I haven't seen any. I haven't seen anything else like that. I've seen that other place. For me, I think it's caused us just to ask the question as a church family, like, how will we hold interruptions? Like, how will we steward that moment and think creatively? But honestly, I am underconfident in my ability to diagnose exactly what happened there. It almost feels like, even though it happened in close proximity, I'm still very much on the outside looking in because I am.

I am seeing a story that I wasn't directly involved in. Whereas if you're talking about Minnesota in general in what we're experiencing, I know people. I actually know stories. In that instance, I don't. So I almost feel like the rest of the world who's looking from the outside looking in. And I want to have a listening here to people who have the highest stake,

like you said, Carl, and be really careful not to come in with a confidence that says, here's what's happening. and here's how you should think about it. I want to discover what's the way of Jesus in all of this. I do find it interesting and that I've seen a few cases where people were so outraged over that incident. And yet, either unaware or uninterested in all the other stories. Some of which you shared many others of legal people being hauled. off going through traumatic experiences completely, I would say, obviously immoral, possibly illegal.

Like that, can we do a both? And like, you know what? You shouldn't protest in a church. Like that. Yeah. That's sacred space. You're disrupting these families and everything. Like probably not a good move.

And I'm equally, if not even more. I mean, I just don't think they're getting the whole story. It's the algorithm. It's the algorithm. Yeah. I mean, I've told Carl this a bunch times when I'm at the gym and I'm on the treadmill and there's TVs up in front of me and there's one. You watch you to Fox News at CNN. And they're talking about the same story.

And I'm like, I wish I had, I wish I could record this right now because the same story told completely different ways. Oh, yeah. It would be funny if it wasn't so detrimental. Yes. But I mean, I know who's watching one and I know who's watching the other. neither of them are getting the full story. And then we're reacting because we just live in those spaces. So I think, I mean, yes, people are seeing what happened in the church.

I don't know that they're necessarily hearing all of the stories, which is why it's so important that you're doing this today and that you're telling people the stories because that's what makes, that's what we're feeling so passionate about is you need to know about the human lives that this is affecting, that people's human dignity is being trample. on that I mean those those are the things that we really feel like it's important for the church to hear yeah yeah yeah have things dimmed down at all so we're

recording this was a February 6 7 something like that and just a few days ago I read somewhere that they pulled out 700 of the 3,000-ish ice agents or something and it sounds like Trump was you know like all right It's gone a little too far. Like it was kind of starting out. We need to like do some about this, especially after Alex Prattie was killed and the outrage legitimate that was in response to that. Have you felt things loosening up a bit?

Or are immigrants families still scared to leave their house? Yeah. Nobody's leaving the house. Okay. Nothing's changed for families. Okay. I feel like, this is my own take. I feel like the rhetoric has changed.

Okay. feel like in what way um well in one way you know homeman came to town and he met with the governor he met with mayors with sheriff's police chiefs so they started actually having conversations and saying you know here's here's what we want to do we want these there's these violent felons we want to get let's talk to you about how we do that um you know as you know as elected leaders have reported that's the first that that conversation has happened so i think having like you know having real tangible conversations is helpful. And certainly the rhetoric of those conversations has happened, right?

It's happening around tables behind closed doors, and we don't know what's being said, rather than through TikTok and, you know, Instagram. I think what we're waiting to see how does it actually change on the ground and these things I hear from immigrant pastors and people I know is it's going to take a while before families start to feel safe to start going back to work and sending their kids to school. So they're really in need, these immigrant families that aren't leaving the house, not going to work, not going to the grocery store.

They're in need of people, the church, hopefully, to come alongside and help them. Are you seeing a lot of that? And we've probably all done it ourselves. Really? Yeah, I mean, we've taken, you know, my wife and I have taken groceries to some families that we've gotten connected to. Our churches, my church, your church, are, you know, collecting grocery bags, lots, lots and lots of churches in the Twin Cities. and not just immigrant churches, but others that have, you know, like yours

that have got connections to congregations or in communities are collecting and delivering food and groceries and giving people rides. Wow, that's great. On a massive scale. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think that's where I would say

the strategy of the church when the heats turned up actually doesn't change. I think for me, I'm reminding myself that there are actually fundamentals like in any sport. You learn to dribble before you actually compete. And then when you're competing, then the heat's turned up.

It is the fundamentals of that sport that actually keep you grounded. And same with their faith. Like it's a doubling down on the fundamentals. And so we can actually do two things at once. We can care about law and order and care for the vulnerable that are around us without needing to vet them first. And that is the way. of Jesus, and whenever some of the things that are most core to our faith become controversial,

that's when you know there's a more sinister enemy at play. There's an enemy behind the enemy that is creating widespread deception when you're just getting to the fundamentals of our faith. But what's been great is seeing people and many, and this is anecdotal for me having conversations with folks, breaking out of their echo chambers that maybe tell them to steer clear of immigrants who are really vulnerable in this season because of maybe people they know or for whatever reason are moving towards the hurting, are moving towards those in need in very significant ways, whether it's medical workers showing up to homes.

My family has been involved in all sorts of this with our church family, like helping with groceries or helping with, we're just checking in on people saying, I see you, I see you. like and I'm here and so yeah there's a discipleship opportunity it's actually an opportunity for the church to mature and so that's that helps me that helps me in a moment like you don't I mean I don't want to minimize the pain you never wish this upon a city or people it with it it is kind of cool to hear the church stepping up and being the church in a moment of a cultural crisis obviously but more churches you would want to do that up but it sounds like a good number are really stepping up and a lot many many that's awesome yeah that's been that's been a really impressive thing yeah and a hopeful thing

somebody asked me the other day what you know what are you hopeful that it's going to get better i'm like yeah yeah i am hopeful but yeah i'm also hopeful the church is going to keep doing what the church has been doing yeah and and that's a great thing yeah and is it bonding um immigrant churches with non-immigrant-dominated churches? Majority culture? I mean, like your church is largely kind of white suburban, but you guys do so much work with different ethnicities and poverty, you know, people, different economic statuses.

Yeah, and again, this is, any cultural moment has opportunities for formation. If we have eyes to see it, if we get stuck in the cultural wars, we will be blind to the opportunities. But if you ask what one low-hanging, fruit piece of opportunity here is there is an open doorway to deep relationship. So if you lead through your strengths, connection and intimacy is actually born more in weakness than strength. And so when you have pockets of people, even churches within the Christian spectrum that are in a vulnerable state, it actually opens up the door to see relationships like microwave a lot

faster. And in my mind, I'm wondering what sort of relationships that will become long-lasting relationships with our church family that will be born because of the darkness of this season. And so there's opportunity, but it takes a lot of intentionality. And I so appreciate what Transform Minnesota is doing to help the local church step into these opportunities. Because so many congregations are naturally focused on themselves and to lift our eyes up we need help and so that's that's the thank you yeah absolutely have you got pushback from transform for the taking the posture and perspective you have with the situation or most churches on board not pushback I think going back to what we were

talking about earlier is kind of disbelief you know the sense you know the the most common maybe pushback or question is well why don't you support We support ICE arresting rapists and murderers. Right. Okay. And you know. You're being one-sided. Yeah.

And, you know, so it's like, okay, absolutely we support that, right? Everybody supports that, wants to see that happen. What we're raising our voice about is this other injustice that's going alongside of that. So, no, I don't, I mean, the only pushback has been, I think, based on a person's perspective or context in terms of how they see what's happening do we have data verified independent data on the percentage of people that they are arresting that are have a criminal record because i i read some out there i just i don't feel confident enough to quote i was just going to say i've heard it but i don't know well i read the i read the ice website yeah and they said one thing so some local some some some local stations like like 30 percent

that have been detained have a criminal record that number that's a number yeah i saw a local news station and say, I think the number somewhere around 3,000, 3,500 people have been arrested. And of that total, I think it was somewhere maybe close to 500 had some kind of criminal record. If you dig down, now you've got to dig down into that because criminal records, that's a wide range of things. So it's a smaller number. That's the worst of the worst. And so one of the perspectives, though, is that if somebody's here illegally, they have a criminal record. So that's another aspect of that.

of perspective. But most people, I mean, Minneapolis has a very low percentage of undocumented immigrants from what I hear. Yes, it's true. Yeah, much less than, you know, border states. Which raises a question, why is the presence of ICE so intense here when this is not a highly, we should pray about that. I know. I mean.

It's a really good question. Maybe edit this out. Exactly. But, but this, the current surge was precipitated by an, accusation of fraud in the state of it. That's why I was that's where I was going to go actually. I wanted to raise that question. Yeah and and we you know let's be clear we've had we've had some massive fraud in the state of Minnesota that's okay you know and it but that's all news for it is I was to say we've been talking about it for two years. A year two years before you all heard

about it. Oh yeah yeah like that's been all the talk in Minnesota for two years so that's not new news to us you know frankly there is fraud and I think I would rather that they would would send accountants to investigate that instead. Yeah. So it's been, so it didn't, fraud didn't come to the surface with this 23-year-old YouTuber last month. No, no. No.

No. Okay. Federal government, I mean, there's. And is it among the Somali community, among, um, legal immigrants or just citywide or, I mean, all the above or? So there's one pretty high profile case, um, feeding our futures, fraud scam. That was the first one. that broke.

70-some defendants in that. The ringleader of that, who orchestrated that is a white woman, American-born. Many of the other participants in the fraud were Somali American.

But they're legal. They're citizens. They're citizens. Most of them are citizens at this point. Because they came over when... 20 years ago, 25. 30 years ago? Which the U.S. had a hand in causing...

Yeah, we were... And, you know, I should say, because I mentioned Somali, I think there's what... I want to say this. I mean, there's thousands of Somalis in Minnesota, and this is a small number. I've worked with Somali refugees for almost 30 years now.

And there are... I mean, by and large, the Somali population is... is law abiding is contributing to our society. So I don't want to disparage that a whole... community, I don't want to, you know, call them garbage by just the actions of a small number who stole from the rest of us.

That's the tricky point of, let's just say, a percentage of the small community was involved in serious fraud and it needs to be addressed. How do you go about that without tarnishing the entire community? Because even in that video, I watched a video three times, the next Shirley video. At the very beginning, they were referencing like, be careful, these are very violent people. people. A whole people. A whole people.

Yeah. And that's where I would say coming back to some of our basics as Christ's followers, which in our world can become really controversial. Like seeing a whole people group demonized in that way, like we must resist that type of perspective. That is not a political statement. It is a discipleship. right statement uh but so is love your enemy like so if whoever that would be for you i mean

there are these basics that we come back to um yeah and and so in regards to that it is really tragic when any people whole people group yeah is put into a category or a lens that is dehumanizing we yeah i think i think there's a level of uh really just basic maturity right basic just christian in maturity that should call us to a different way. To spin it around, because I like to do that sort of thing, can we do the same thing with ICE? Yeah. Like are there some awesome ICE agents who are kind and humble and just doing their job?

Because when I think of ICE, I just think of violent, untrained, bullies. I'm sure that there are, yes. I mean, I'm sure there are. Our police chiefs, I mean, there was a group that made a public statement together. and I really appreciated their posture at the beginning, which was, we're actually not here to say, this was their words, abolish ice. We have a history of working really well.

I think there are new forms of exercising that type of authority that are bringing this to the surface. I have an imagination that there are many people that feel trapped. I don't know that for sure. regardless. That may very much disagree with the abuse of power, maybe even disagree with how the mission or focus has become, but they have a job.

They, you know, they're a good person. That's my imagination. If you create a short on-ramp into wielding power with a financial incentive, you're probably going to have a lot of beauty and brokenness in turn to that. And so I hold my, perspective on that really loosely and I do know that the Bible's call is for us to move into

places as people of love and peace with with an ICE agent with an immigrant. So I mean the fruits of the spirit of like gentleness. You know what I mean? That's like I just think about how contrary the fruit to the spirit are from the rage of today. And so anyway. It is difficult. I mean it is when you're here and you're living it and this is what you're seeing and it's so. painful and it feels so personal. It's difficult to have that perspective. But if we want to hold somebody other people to not demonize a whole people group, we also need to make sure we're not demonizing a whole people. Very true. Yeah. But also I think it's okay for us to acknowledge the fact that right now it's pretty difficult to do that. Like it takes work, it takes intention. And I

think as believers, though we really need to be able to to be consistent and do what we're asking other people to do as well. I don't diminish the fact that it's hard. Yeah, yeah. I can verify Dave's imagination. I know two people in ministry who have had spent behind-the-scenes time with ICE agents. One who's visiting a friend who is detained, who was hospitalized, and two ICE agents were there to guard him in the hospital,

and he got to sit and visit for about three hours, and the agents were really talkative and were sharing their experience. They were tired and frustrated. They've been working seven days a week, 14 hours a day, deployed away from home for two months. They'd had a two-day notice before they had to up and leave their family for two months over the holidays. You know, they, you know, they were relaying, you know, some of the experiences in some of the directions that they had been given and, you know, people groups to target and, you know, kind of instructions that they were given to try and find

undocumented people. And as they were kind of just sitting around a hospital bed, two of them were guarding a guy and the other one was there to visit his friend. They were just kind of telling like, yeah, they were not happy. They were frustrated, demoralized. So it's more the... So I guess what, yeah, I think what I would say is like to your point, it's like, I mean, people, I mean, we all know, we all know people who go into law enforcement, right, to serve the community.

And I would say that's what, you know, by and large, I want to believe that that's what most people who joined ICE wanted to do. And like Dave said, I think there's a, there's probably a new. set of instructions here that I can only imagine is really violating the conscience of many of these agents. Yeah. Wow. Let's hope so. Yeah. Yeah, because again, like the highlights you see on the other side are them acting in the worst possible ways. But that's, that means I haven't seen 99% of whatever. I mean, that definitely is happening. So it's, that's why I'm saying. Like, it is hard, but, but we have to be able to look at like the entirety of the situation and not, and make sure that

We are not just looking at one side of the story and only holding to that side of the story. And admitting we have blind spots. It is really easy, to your point pressing about both sides. It is easy to dehumanize somebody that doesn't have a name and you can't see their face. Right. And that's a part of it. Many of these people are coming from out of state so they don't have a relational network here. You can't see their face.

You don't have their name. And whenever those barriers are in place, it's easy to begin to start. see them as something other than fellow human beings made in the image of God. And wearing a mask doesn't help overcome. It doesn't. It might help humanize a little bit if you didn't. But to your point, though, it's even though our foundationally for Christfellers, we have a gravitational pull to the vulnerable.

Yes. At the same time, we also need to be careful not to become the other side of the same coin. Yeah, totally agree. towards, yeah, towards that. I mean, Paul's in prison. We actually see a Roman centurion give their life to Christ. I mean, you have these wonderful expressions of the kingdom on both sides. Throughout scripture that are very challenging for all of us.

Wow, wow. Well, final words from each of you. What do you want people to hear? We've covered a lot of ground. Yeah, words of encouragement challenge. What do you have to say to the audience here? We'll start. How about, I'll start with you again, Shelley, if you have anything.

thoughts? I would say we appreciate your prayers for us here. It's a painful time. It's hard. It's trying. It's exhausting. We've got great people serving the community that are tired and they're hurting. We have parts of the community that are really scared and hurting and people that we love that are very scared and hurting. And so I just ask for prayer for everybody. And And encouragement, you know, if you're not in Minneapolis and you're living someplace else, it means a lot to reach out and say, how are you doing? Just checking it on you. That's good.

So it means a lot. It means more than I think people know. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, we are as followers of Jesus, practitioners of the way of Jesus. So my encouragement is to come back to those foundational rhythms. breaking free from technology, I think fasting, spending time in God's presence and in God's

word. And one practice that's really helped me in this season is when I want to say something or react to something, whether it's a text message to a family member or whatever, hold that up or a post or a comment and go, Jesus, what do you think about this response? Just what do you think about? Sit on it for 24 hours and let's let actually God's presence that's with us really inform us not through reaction but through responsiveness to what's going on so that's that's as somebody who's in that struggle I just invite others to join the struggle with me good good I'd have two thoughts I think the first is in the moment right now look beyond the headlines and look deep into the story to see what's really going on and try and find as local of a perspective as possible

something I think that's been a little demoralizing for all of us as we interact with people outside of Minnesota is we're not believed. It's like, okay, we're right here. I'm telling you things I'm hearing firsthand from people. Don't you believe me. But get firsthand, you know, information and look beyond the story. The second thing I would say for us as Christians is, like, as a Christian movement in the United States, we need to start thinking biblically about immigration and immigration policy. We're in this mess today because for over 20 years, we've been kicking a can down the road on immigration reform. You know, our organization, you know, I started first getting involved in this 20 years ago

when across the country evangelical started advocating and talking about comprehensive immigration reform. That was 20 years ago. And it's been attempt after attempt to try and make something happen. And us kicking it down the road has brought us to the point of the mess that we're in today. And I think long term, what I want to do is, to commit myself to saying we need to re-engage the conversation around immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, informed by biblical values and perspective. That's so good. That's so good. We are talking about immigration at the Exiles Conference

in a couple months. I can't believe we planned on doing that a year ago, and then here we are. In Minneapolis, people were asking, are you still doing the conferences? It's all the more recent. It's actually a great year for it. Yeah. Well, especially hearing the posh of the churches, too. I don't think it's going to be a big divisive controversy. I think it's going to be a pastoral time for how can we. It's like a longing. Yeah.

How can we lean into this? Yeah. I think it's drawn to wanting to have conversations about it. Yeah. I think it's great. So check out Theology androd.com for the conference information. Also, you have to check out Transform Minnesota. I mean, transformmin.org.

You guys do such amazing word. Thank you. Every city needs an organization like this that brings churches together, helps educate theological, cultural, social issues. I mean, I've been, yeah, I've worked with you off and on for a while. And I just love what you guys do. So, yeah, check out their ministry as well. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Theology and Roth.

Thank you all for being part of it. Absolutely. Thanks. Thank you.