Theology in the Raw - Is God Really on Our Side? And the OT Background to John's Gospel: Joshua Ryan Butler

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

Joshua Ryan Butler is a Teaching Pastor with the Willamette family of churches in the Portland area and the author of The Party Crasher, Beautiful Union, The Skeletons in God’s Closet, The Pursuing God, and his most recent book, God is On Your Side. To listen to our "extra innings" conversation, head over to Theology in the Raw's Patreon page to become a member of the Theology in the Raw community. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology to Ra. My guest today is Josh Butler, who is a teaching pastor with the Willamette family of churches in the Portland area and the author of several really incredible books. His most recent book is God is on your side, which is a book that's the topic of our conversation, a book that really comes out of a lot of personal pain, really, and challenges that Josh has been through over the years. And he took all of those challenges back to the gospel of John and experience God in fresh new ways. And that's what we talked about in this book. Also, stay tuned for our extra innings conversation where I talked to Josh about what it was

like getting canceled in the wake of his book, Beautiful Union. So without further ado, please welcome back to the show, the one and only Joshua Ryan Butler. Well, Josh Ryan Butler, it's great to see you again. It's been a minute. I don't know when's the last time we talked. I mean, we talked a lot offline, but I don't know when's that somebody who's actually seen each other sort of face-to-face via a screen. Totally, man.

It's been a bit. It's good to see you again. Yeah. How is your new ministry post up and back in Portland? You've been there for over a year now? Yeah, totally. So been back in Portland, about a year and a half, two years. And, dude, yeah, I love it.

So a teaching pastor with the Willamette family of churches here. It's five churches here in the Portland area that are, dude, just amazing. It's been just beautiful. I think being back home, for those who don't know, we were in Arizona for five years and then came back here about two years ago now. And, man, all of our family and longtime friends and everything are here. So, dude, it's good to be good to be back in the hometown. You feel like, is Portland? that feels like home to you, right?

Definitely, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, grew up in the alignment valley here and this is home. I love the vibe of the churches in Portland. Like, they're just, it seems very unique compared to others. I've been to that there's so much camaraderie and not nearly as much, from my perspective, like competition among churches. But it's not just my, like, whenever I talk to pastors, I say, yeah, it's totally like that.

Do you get that sense, too? And where does that come from? Totally, man. There's such a unity and collaboration working together. I think part of it, you know, I think when you feel like there's not many of you, you know, it's like, dude, we're better together. How can we learn from each other, work together, collaborate? So over the years, there's just been like a huge impulse on churches working together.

There's been different leaders who helped steward that. So Rick McKimley was the lead pastor at Amago Day where I served for about 15 years. and I feel like he really led the charge in cultivating a lot of that culture and a lot of other church leaders as well here. And then Kevin Palau leads the Luis Palau Association. And they've been kind of a neutral convener. I'd say that's been really helpful of having an organization that's not a church that can help convene the churches. So it doesn't feel like one church is trying to rally everyone into their thing. But he has been a really significant leader in being, you know, he's not.

not a pastor. He's come more from a Christian nonprofit world, but has been able with that to kind of gather and rally churches and leaders from around the city to collaborate and work together in a way that nobody feels defensive about, but everyone's excited to collaborate. I mean, so,

I mean, he's been doing that since the 80s or something. Yeah. I mean, and so that has probably laid a really thick foundation of unity between the churches, it seems. Yeah. And I saw,

particularly in kind of the 2010s was where it felt like there was a lot of that. groundwork foundation laid just there was a lot of collaboration working in the city on a couple different areas you know like going to the civic leaders like the mayor at the time and what how can we serve how can we help and it led to partnerships in areas like foster care and adoption like homelessness anti-trafficking working with refugees things of that nature and so kind of on the missional front of how can we as churches serve in local schools and and really be for the fortune of the city as a whole but then that also led to man prayer and evangelism churches from around the city gathering at different locations for like a week of prayer where every night of the week we'd all be gathering and rallying to pray for God's kingdom come here in Portland as in heaven and things like evangelism and churches partnering together on that front getting leaders connected so there are small groups of different you know lead pastors connecting or worship pastors connecting or outreach pastors connecting. maybe once every month or once every quarter,

the building relationship, connection, learning from what's happening in different parts of the city. Yeah. So I love it, man. It's fun, like, feeling like you're a part of just collaborative, relational network where everyone's kind of same team and for each other and rooting for one another, yeah, across the city. It's not like that everywhere.

Yeah. Like other places I love our competition. Is there, I mean, Portland has this reputation. of being having like a pretty not just progressive environment but but a pretty aggressive one would that be right and since in the wake of covid it seemed like it i don't know if it peaked then or is it still like that or is that an accurate way of putting it it's not just a progressive environment but it's pretty or not just a progressive environment but can be pretty hostile or aggressive or is that a little overstated yeah you know historically it's been interesting i think um you know because

the way I see it, it feels like there was, especially in the 2000s when I was for starting in ministry, Portland really felt like antagonism towards the gospel and towards the church. You know, there's kind of hostility. And this felt like the day where it was like the new atheism and Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, that kind of vibe where it was kind of a really antagonistic hostile presence towards the gospel. And then in the 2010s, it felt to me like it shifted more to apathy, where you had, Portland became kind of popular, you know, so you had people moving here from all over the

country, New York, Los Angeles. They'd sell their home, move here, and life was cheaper here than it was in places like New York and L.A. And so there was kind of like, I don't know, Portland felt a bit like an adult playground, you know, where it's kind of like, let's go all the beer and coffee shops and food and, you know, and just and have fun and outdoors. And it was like, dude, let's just have fun. So there it felt less like antagonistic and towards Jesus and more like just sort of apathy. Like, do I just want to have fun, live my life, do my thing, whatever. Okay.

And now, since, you know, since we move back, it feels like the new season now is really curiosity, hunger, searching. Like, there is an openness, like, with just spirituality in general. And I think lots of people are, you know, seeing this in other places as well. But there's a huge, I don't know, for example, like Wicca and. tarot cards and astrology and anything spiritual like is is people are kind of hungry for or processing but we're experiencing people and I'm hearing this from churches around the city like people coming with do I have this dream or this vision or Jesus or have this holy spirit

encounter this and they're like what's going on here and and Jesus is getting a hold of dude I don't know man like I see in our youth you know like we got high schoolers my my daughter's in high school assistant for high school group but just like two weeks ago there's like a number of new high schoolers who are brand new to the faith and and their parents are all anti-Christian or into the kind of tarot, wicca, all that kind of stuff, you know, but they have these Jesus encounters and you'd like just want, you know, we had my co-leaders, she had like a three-year chronic condition in her arm. She was going to eat surgery for it because it was getting so painful. And I asked one, then you go, hey, you know, Jason, why don't you pray for

her? You know, he's like, okay. So he's kind of learning how to pray so he prays for her. Dude, she gets healed, man. And like, you know, last two weeks it's been fine. She doesn't need surgery anymore. And that's just one of like flood of stories. of like, God, moving through younger generations, this hunger. But I think for Portland in general, my sense is, like, they're, I heard Mark Sayers, who were processing this recently, but like the sense of like, we're exhausted, but not yet desperate, you know, meaning like you talk to a lot of Portlanders, a sense of exhaustion, like 2020 and the pandemic and cultural politics, you know, and division and all those kind of

things job like everything just feeling like exhaust when you're exhausted it's like you've still got you're looking at what you've got internally within your own resources you know um but the shift to desperation where it's like okay now I need help from the outside like from transcendent there's no more an openness transcendence and all and I'm seeing signs of some of that you know but like my own sense and I think a lot of leaders here is like dude that there is a wave of renewal coming as Portlanders kind of move from exhaustion to desperation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. And I see, I sense that kind of similar trend throughout the country too. A lot of pastors are the same, the same thing. Like there seems to be a kind of a renewed, yeah, renewed sense of

searching for something more, something deeper. People are, they have that itch, right, that is always there that they're now starting to scratch more. Your, your latest book, God is on your side. which will come out either in a couple days or already came out depending on when we release this episode. It starts off with a bang. I would say from what I could recollect,

I mean, most of your books, I mean, yeah, I would say all your books have a very personal flavor to it. You write in a very pastoral way with weaving in deep theology and you do that brilliantly. The pursuing God might still be my favorite. this one's is a little more intense um this one comes from a deep place in your life can you

give us a running start of what that looks like like what what was what gave rise to this book in your life definitely man well totally so the backdrop is just going in my own life uh do just some of the hard areas where like where i didn't feel like god was on my side you know so historically i kind of go man yeah it's it's easy to it's got on your side is he for you, really for you. And it's easy to say yes when life's going well, but when the grenade goes off, like you say like when life blows up. And in my life, you know, things like when our five-year-old daughter had a psychotic break

and she was in the hospital for 10 days and six months with specialists and we thought we had lost the girl that we loved, you know, like just that, man, I found myself really wrestling. God, are you actually with us? Are you actually for us, you know? man, my wife and I had the biggest fight in our marriage and went through months of counseling to deal with it. Or when our other, you know, one of our other kids, our son had this diagnosis that rattled us and it's going to impact his life for ages to come. You know, like, man, God, are you really for us? Are you with us?

A season where I got stabbed in the back by a close friend and just named drug through the mud of our community. And I sense, you just call me, hey, don't retaliate. Don't try and vindicate yourself. Just didn't do it, you know. but God didn't vindicate rise up from kind of vindicate me the way I hope like I'm a simple man God are you really for me and the heart well one of the big ones was I went blind in my right eye a while back and I thought the doctors thought my left eye was coming to depending on the cause and so they basically had to prepare myself where you're likely going blind in the next year and just

going man the fears of what if I'm not going to be able to see my kids faces growing up not going to be able to read and write and some of my favorite things the way I know how at least you know and I mean you can be blind and have a good life but but so much of the way that my own life had I was familiar with it's like oh I happen to reimagine all that was really scary and just god did you abandon me you know and then more recently uh yeah this was really the book I needed um this last two years or so you know so I had just some stuff that blew up you know as you which life, life, uh, life, uh, life went off. And, um, man, and dude, I found myself facing for the first time my life of suicidal thought, you know, which was, it would be better for your family and

friends, Josh, if you weren't around, you know, and, um, dude, I had just kind of gone through a season that felt like crucifixion, you know, kind of been publicly mocked, uh, humiliated, scorned. There was some public stuff that was like, people saw me, it was the tip of the iceberg. there are so many layers underneath that behind the scenes at our at our church and stuff i i we were planning towards the future that i thought i god had seven years earlier been saying hey here's where your future's headed and that um it all kind of unraveled i remember feeling like dude it was just the most brutal probably year of life um and wrestling with god are you actually for me are are you actually with me? Are you actually for me? And that was sort of the genesis of this book

was I found myself going back to the gospel of John, which everybody loves. That's the one. You know, you become a new Christian. Like, hey, go read John. And what I found, though, over the years, like, been a Christian now for over two decades, I guess. And, like, dude, I mean, it's the powerful, something that's so powerful where you, like, you can read John for the first time and get it. And it's so powerful and huge. But I can be reading it 20 years later. and there are depths, treasures very deep that, like, I'm going, I never saw this stuff before. And, man, and so, so this new book is really, it's focused on the gospel of John and kind of walking through. And from a theological end, man, it's like wanting to uncover some of the depths and treasures that are, help who we see Jesus to be, like help our encounter with Jesus to kind of pop in technical color.

But on a personal end, it's like, dude, this is the book I needed this last year or two. where I found myself for the first time with depression, suicidal thoughts, anxiety, like tremors, my arms were shaking. Like, I just, there was all sorts of things where I had to go back to the gospel in a fresh new way. And God met me there, you know?

Yeah. I want to come back to that episode in your life at the end of the episode, unpack that a bit more. But yeah, let's dive into John. I mean, you, one of the things you do in the book is you, you, you, I mean, Yeah, John's really familiar.

We know the stories and everything. There's been tons of studies done on it. But one of the unique things you do is you uncover the Old Testament background or some of the old testament background that is kind of hovering beneath the scene of these passages that really inform how we interpret it. And also just some subtle things in the text that you can pass over so quickly. Take us, I mean, one of the most glaring ones is the wedding at Kana. I've never seen this before. I mean, it's, it's like, we pointed out, like, oh, my gosh. Like, why have I never even asked a question about the third day?

Can you, could you? Totally, man. Help one pack that for us, yeah. Yeah, so John chapter two, wedding at Cana, and it opens saying, hey, on the third day, right? Which should clue us in, like I show like it throughout the book how John gives us these little clues where the third day of what, you know, third day of the week, third day of the month. It doesn't say just a third day. but it's actually a clue to this is a resurrection scene we're about to see he's showing us the significance and impact of what um about what christ's resurrection will accomplish and at this

scene uh jesus makes around 150 gallons of wine like a lot man like like it's that's around 750 bottles of wine and he's going for a party that's already lit man you know they've been going for days and this is wedding celebration and jesus makes the best wine and you're kind of going like dude, why, Jesus, why are you making this that much wine? Why are you making this big thing? But when you get some of the Old Testament background, the prophets foretold that when the Messiah came, it was going to bring this abundance of wine, this kingdom picture.

So the prophet Amos and Joel, I'll put up like in Amos, for example, he says, when the Messiah comes, when God's kingdom reigns, the mountains shall drip sweet wine and all the hills shall flow with it. And can't imagine that name of the mountains are running with wine. The hills are flowing with it. It's this picture of abundance. And he goes on and says, I'll restore the fortunes of my people, Israel. They shall rebuild the city, ruin cities, and inhabitants.

They shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. And so these passages are about more than just wine. They're a picture of God bringing his people back from exile, uniting them with himself and the wedding feast of God's union with his people. And the wine is going to flow from the mountains down through the hills, down into the rivers. You know, like it's this picture of abundance. And Jesus's first sign in John's gospel here, it's going, that's a picture of what I've come to do. Like, I've come to bring about the wedding of God and his people, this union that's going to bring this abundance of land.

And it's interesting, dude, he uses, John says, the water for the Jewish purification rights. It's, they fill up these jars with water. Yeah. And he turns that water and wine. And I believe part of the picture here is like, dude, you used to get washed with water. Now you get washed with wine, right? Like under the old covenant in Israel, like you had these purification rights and ceremonies and the water was a part of that, you know, for washing and cleansing yourself. But what Jesus is going to do is now you now like we get cleansed our sin atoned for, cleansed through the blood of Christ.

So there's something interesting that happens later in John's gospel at the cross where the spear pierces his side and out comes blood and water, right? And Jesus's blood in New Testament imagery is imagery of his, of communion of the wine of Christ's bloodshed. And so there's sense as the people of God, the Church of God, the bride of Christ, we used to get washed with water. Now we got washed with wine. We get washed now by the water of his spirit, the wine of his bloodshed. And so I kind of make the case that they chat out, Jesus is the seventh vessel. Like they use these six vessels that represent the old covenant. And now Jesus is the seventh vessel.

and in him the water is turned to wine that the bride of Christ that we get washed and cleansed for and we have a final observation here that just man I love is that um the ending scene is the master of the banquet taste the wine and goes yum you know it's like this is so good it's like you saved the best for last and uh what's going on there well I think this is actually a picture I argue in the book the signs are actually pictures of the gospel and pictures of Christ's death and resurrection each sign that Jesus does here. And this sign, like the master of the banquet is like a picture of God the father, tasting of the sacrificial love of his son for his bride poured out on the cross

and going, whoa, this is better than all the sacrifices that came before, all of the ceremony, everything that came before to Washington was my people, the sacrificial love of my son poured out for his bride on the cross is better than everything that came before. And Jesus saves the best for last. And so the picture that we're left with at the end of this scene is the master of the banquet like the father presiding over the wedding of the groom and the bride and this abundant new wine that causes a celebration like the world's never seen. It's a picture of the eschatological wedding feast at the lamb. And yeah, anyway, I'll stop there.

I keep going. No, it's so good. It reminds me a dumb and dumber when they are headed to Aspen. where beer flows like wine. Yes, where the beer flows like wine. Yeah. I think in case somebody's like, I don't know, are you reading too much into this?

Like, you got to understand that the gospel of John is just saturated with symbolism. Totally. Like, there's no word or phrase. phrase or number that or few numbers that don't have some kind of meaning kind of lingering behind it even like okay so the wedded it came is a first of seven signs the seventh one is the resurrection right of Lazarus pointing to his own resurrection so it almost makes sense that he envelopes you know both sides of these seven signs which are so central to the first half of the book a whole book really would be leaning into giving hints towards

resurrection, which in John is, well, all the Gossels, but especially in John is just so important. I say almost all the numbers, because I remember years ago, I was during my PhD, we were in a seminar and I forget the context, but somebody pointed out that, that it is interesting though, that the catch of fish at the end of John is, I think it's 153. 153, that's it. Yeah. Although I think it's small. There's no, okay. Yeah. Oh, you think that's symbolic? Oh, totally, dude. You didn't get that far, I guess. Yeah, you didn't read that chapter. No, I didn't get that far. Okay, because the point was like, there's not that 153 is just the number of the fish. Like, there's no deeper meaning. Okay. So now I'm curious. Well, first off, really quickly on what

you said, too, because I know a lot of some of these readings, and I know I'm kind of given summaries here, like listeners could be going like, dude, is that kind of like the early church fathers would often, you know, read in ways where people are going, is that really there? Are you reading too much into it, but I try and make the case and actually deal with some of those objectives. Because my belief, A, John is intentionally using heavy symbolism. B, in order to understand it, you got to be familiar with the Old Testament, right? And so part of it's not reading John too lightly, it's actually digging into how he's tapping into the Old Testament narrative and framework. And when you get that, it just starts popping, fireworks start going

off, you know? There's more. But anyways, I'd say on that front, man, readers, or listeners, it could be worth checking out the book then, see what you think. Because I try and make the case throughout a lot of these. But let's take the 153 fish, right? So there's a couple different, two main angles here interpretation-wise, right? So first off, when, okay, so it's John 21, Jesus is restoring Peter. And I make the case that Jesus is walking Peter back through elements from earlier in Peter's story in order to redeem them. right so the 153 fish at first it's um nighttime peter and disciples they've been out fishing all

night and caught nothing and then jesus appears on the shore a daybreak and calls it i think there's a lot of imagery already there there's darkness and water the boat is hovering over the shore and then it light like the word speaks over the waters and is bringing new creation he calls them hey throw the nets overboard uh on the other side and they do and they get this miraculous catch of fish and the so much so that uh but it john says this miraculous catch 153 fish but the nets were not torn they didn't break right okay what's going on here john's intentional with all his details well one this is echoing the scene of when jesus first called peter when he first called peter they've been fishing all night caught nothing so he says hey three notes on the other side boom so they do and uh and they

have this massive catch of fish but in that one when we first called peter the nets are breaking the boats are sinking. They get other friends and both boats are sinking. They can't hold the catches come. And then Jesus says, hey, I'll make you a fisher of men, right? And so the catching of fish is a sign of Peter's evangelistic calling to fish for the nation, so to speak, to evangelize the nation. Now, I would say, why are the nets breaking when he first calls him? And then when John, you know, here after the resurrection, why the net's not breaking? Well, when Jesus first calls Peter, dude, they're not ready for, the church is not ready for the in-gathering of the nations that's going to come as the British ministry. But now, when Jesus calls Peter, when he's

restoring Peter in John 21, dude, Pentecost is about to come. Jesus is recommissioning Peter, you know, and the disciples for the mission that's going to come to Pentecost. The nations are going to be gathered in. There's going to be a, quote-unquote, miraculous catch of fish. You know, this miraculous catch of the nations and in-gathering in the nations. But now, on the other side of Christ's death and resurrection, with the sending of the Spirit, with all the disciples have been through, the nets will hold. Like the church will be able to hold, retain the in-gathering of the nations that's coming. So you got all that as kind of context, right?

So then we get to the 153. What's going on there? Well, if you look in, there's only one other place in the Old Testament that the number 153 appears, and it's significant. It's in Second Chronicles 217, where King Solomon, It's in the heyday. So it's like the glory day of Israel now. And Solomon issues a census to find out how many Gentiles are in the land.

How many foreigners have been gathered in as the, you know, our people. And it's like 153K, man, 153,000, right? No way. And so technically it's the only time that number occurs. That's the only time that number occurs. So it's technically 153,600, right? But 153, it'd be weird to have half a fish or, you know, a 6 tenths fish in the catch, right? But I think John.

is echoing, do the in-gathering of the nations, the Gentiles gathered into Israel under the Lordship of Christ and what he's accomplished. So that's my take. I also have in the end note, there's another take I find compelling, which is Richard Bacham. And it's compelling. It's complicated to explain. He talks about triangular numbers and how they functioned in the ancient world, how they function in John. Listeners could go look that up. I have an extensive footnote. that kind of talks about it. I find that compelling as well. And if that's the case,

then what 153, what the scene is echoing is Ezekiel 47, the River of Life coming from the temple again, and the fishermen gathering, you know, gathering abundant fish in the store. It's a new creation image picture, music of 47. So I think either of those, I find compelling. But they both speak to the impact of the resurrection,

like the in-gathering of the nation's new creation. And in my mind, too, it's like the 153, it's reinforcing the major point of this miraculous catch-of-fish of the in-gathering of the nations into the people of God. Wow, that's wild. That's pretty compelling, especially since that's the only time the number occurs. It's not like it's a super popular number, and you're just arbitrarily picking one passage where it occurs because it fits your, you know, assumption. but the only time with a similar theme, that's pretty compelling.

Again, combined with the fact that John, a few details are just to get details. Like, he's trying to make a point. So with each story, you do relate it back to each scene, kind of your own life, where John is helping to pastor you in this question you have about is God on my side. So how did the wedding at Cana, what did this, how did this speak to you? Definitely. Well, so maybe first off, even how I'm using that language of God is on your side. Because right out of the gate, you know, I think John chapter one his introduction, you know, Jesus is the word made flesh.

So he's the creator entering onto our side of creation. He's the lamb one slain. He's the innocent one who enters onto our side as the guilty on the cross to fight for us. He's the Jacob's ladder bringing his side of heaven onto our side of earth in us and through us. And so, my man, Jesus is, he's in it with us, he's fighting for us, he's committed to us, he's bringing his kingdom in and through us as his people. And in my own life, you know, the wedding at Cana story, for example, there is when I had that first suicidal thought, you know, I found myself going, dude, it feels like I'm on my own.

and God, have you left the building? And, man, I don't know where to go for me. It was part of it was a lack of hope. You know, I felt like there was no hope anymore. And when I was looking at the wedding in Cana, I sensed what Jesus is doing here is setting the GPS for where his ministry is heading and where all of creation is heading

and helping me reorient and set the GPS for where my life is ultimately heading, right, in him. So going, it seems like in my immediate, circumstances there's no hope but christ this first sign i suggest that jesus going hey i've come to bring about this resurrection wedding that's kind of bring abundance in new life and and the whole deal and in my life in my own life lifting my gaze off of the immediacy of my circumstances to the hope of christ's commitment to me and what he's accomplished even if things around me are confusing right now even if there's been so much loss even if there's this i'm placing

my trust in the God who is in it with me. He's fighting for me. He's working in and through me. He's for my good. And he's committed to bringing about this resurrection wedding that is going to bring life. Not only the world, it's going to bring life to me. And I found myself in a spot like that couple in the wedding in John 2 where they ran out of wine. You know, they had nothing left to give. It was embarrassing. It was humility and it was shocking. I find myself in a season where like, dude, I feel like I ran out. I don't know how to be. I've lost nationally, reputation network like locally I lost my job my stability my community in terms of the future a sense of vocation and calling and like oh dude I just feel like I've got nothing left I've run out of wine

but Jesus is able to bring new wine you know and and so just at least with that with that story that was like lifting my gaze to a brighter hope and a future that God is committed in Christ to bring you. You experience, I mean, well, I may ask the question. Did you experience some level of healing and hope simply by studying the book of John? Or did you have other, I mean, therapists, friends, people, pastors or whatever? Great. So that scripture played a role, but not like, hey, just go read your Bible and you'll be healed from all your past trauma or whatever. Great question. Yeah. I know. I talk about this a lot in the book. You know, like, dude it's not like hey just open the bible and boom so man i first off man i had a year of grueling

dark night of the soul working through some god working through some really deep stuff in my life so there were no kind of cheap quick fixes or whatever you know second yeah man i for me like getting in with a good counselor uh was huge got on some medication you know um had strong uh tight-knit group of of close friends uh to kind of walk with and help process and all and so man i for me counseling spiritual direction spiritual director so spiritual direction counseling medication community all these things were huge and and i think um and process you know going like dude it wasn't like an overnight thing there was a long process of kind of going through that value of the shadow um yeah with with all that um and yet i would

say um at the deepest foundational level my heart questions how to do with God. You know, like, God, where are you in this, what's going on here? And that's where I felt like the power of going back to the gospel, you know, and experiencing one of the deepest things on the other end, you know, this was almost a year after everything, you know, but just really encountering God digging up deep layers, even for like my child, the deeper layers of my story realize I get into more of this in the book you know ways I'd been shaped in the past and whatnot and the power of God saying hey Josh before I called you to use

you I called you to love you and I would have always said of course you know yeah I do like being comes before doing or being in Christ before doing so you know but I didn't realize how much it was embedded in me so one of the things for me actually just to go there is like you dude I growing up I learned my thing was I'm going to be the smart kid and then I kid, right? Like, I want to belong. I was kind of the nerd and, you know, I grew up kind of scared at home and felt rejected at school. I'm going to be the smart kid and the nice kid. That's how I'm going to be smart. I'm going to read a bunch of theology books, you know, or not at that time. I was reading Lord of the Rings and whatever. You know, I'm going to read books. I can kind of get

whatever, get a quiet corner of the house. At school, I'm going to get good grades, that kind of thing. And it would be nice, do all the chores, feel delicious. And what I didn't realize, was, man, this is how I learned to find belonging and acceptance and affirmation. And it works. And what I didn't realize was, man, then I got into ministry and same deal. You're like, I'm going to be the smart kid and the nice kid. And so start reading a ton of theology books and having the ideas and at our church. Hey, Josh, you go to him for ideas and constantly. And then, you know, my first week's skeletons came out and kind of there was even more like on a broader scale, you know, like, hey, Josh, you belong. We need, you know, you've got ideas and

all. And at least internally in me, there was a sense, oh, I belong because I can bring this. And nice kid. Like, I'm going to, I'm not going to be the domineering whatever pastor. You know, like I'm going to listen, be humble, trying to help people and all. And those are good things, right? It's good to not be a jerk. And ideas are good. But I didn't realize how much my sense of my belonging based on that, you know. And then realizing, oh, my gosh, the year I went through, I mean, the two main messages of the scenario were, A, you're not nice, or A, you're not smart, your ideas are stupid, and B, you're not nice, you're a hateful jerk, whatever, which is not true, but those are the accusations, you know, and like,

and it unraveled almost every layer of belonging in a hat, you know, and that was where I found God going, man, what the enemy intended for evil, I'm actually using for God, I've allowed this unraveling to get these deeper layers of your heart. And, and I found, dude, the gospel of John being a powerful resource of God ministry to me, through these encounters that, these one-on-one encounters that people are having with Jesus throughout the gospel of John. And I think John's designed it such a way that you, that you would find yourself in those encounters, that I found myself in those encounters with Christ, looking at me, ministering to me, speaking to me, seeing me in the midst of where I was,

and speaking truth and life and grace. John, so wait, so John wants us to see, he wants the reader to see themselves in the various encounters, in Nicodemus, in the Samaritan woman, in Phil in the blank. Yeah, I believe that. I believe that actually, so one of the cases I kind of make throughout the book is that these one-on-one encounters are that I highlight, like, these are not just just encountering them. John describes and narrates them in such a way that, yes, these one-on-one encounters

actually happen, but each individual figure becomes, like, a representative for much bigger realities. They're almost like an iconic or a window of a much greater reality that we find ourselves in. And I think when we begin to see that kind of symbolism at play, we begin to find ourselves. How about the Samaritan woman? That's always, it's one of my favorite story. It's just, it's so rich and there's so many things coming together. Obviously, she's a woman and a Samaritan. So you have these ethnic tensions. You have gender tensions. And just a fascinating dialogue, resulting in her immediate rush to go evangelize the town of Sycar. She takes the spiritual bread to the city while the, you know, all the apostles, you know,

are wondering, did somebody buy Jesus lunch? Like, what's going? Like, they're still like the contrast between how they're just, they just don't get it. And this most unlikely of all people immediately gets it. I mean, you know, does she fully get it? Well, she gets it enough to go take it to the city, you know? And it's just, yeah, there's so much just artistry going on in the story. Tell us about the Samaritan woman. Totally, man.

Okay. So the woman at the well, right? So the well, let's talk about that first, right? Because the well, where Christ encounters her, that might seem like just an insignificant passing detail, but it's actually fascinating. In the Old Testament, the well is the location where the groom meets the bride, right? And so the groom and the bride meet at the well. We see this with Rebecca.

You're talking about like Genesis? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Rebecca, in Genesis 24, Rebecca, Isaac's bride, Rebecca is discovered, is found at a well. In Genesis 29, Jacob and Rachel, they lock eyes and meet at a well. In Exodus 2, Moses and Zipra met it a well. And because of this, the leading, probably one of the most, maybe the most leading Jewish scholar in the world, Robert Alter on kind of the Hebrew Bible and all, talks about the well as a

type scene, like a motif, and that has these common elements in, yeah, it has these common elements. He locates five of them. The first one is that the future groom journeys to a foreign land. And we see that here with Jesus. Jesus is journey to Samaria, right? He had to go through Samaria a place that others might avoid. He goes there.

The second feature is there. He encounters a girl at a well, and that's what happens here with Jesus. he encounters hurt the well the third one one of them draws water from the well there's this whole discussion jesus and her have about that the fourth one is the girl rushes home with news at the stranger's arrival that's what she does at the end you know she runs back into town hey everyone come see this this man i meant and the fifth one uh the betrothal is concluded after he's been invited to a meal and they invite him to stay with him for them for days and whatnot right and so the point you know uh alters jewish he's talking about the hebrew bible he even makes mention of john four

in the New Testament as like an example of this like it's drawing on this theme okay what's that mean I'm not saying it does not mean that there's something romantic going on between Jesus and this woman one on one right like my level but what I'm saying is John is painting this as a picture of Christ encountering the church as his bride that John is narrating this real encounter that Jesus had with this person but he's highlighting details he's narrating in such a way that we see this encounter and I believe Jesus is orchestrating this encounter itself as a picture of Christ encountering us as the church. So I believe the Samaritan woman is a picture of the church, which is interesting. She is, like her, the church is part Jew and part Gentile, which is

what Samaritans were. They were both Jewish and Gentile mixture, you know, which is a major theme in the New Testament. Like the Samaritan woman, we as the church, we're from the wrong side of town, you know, like in terms of Jesus crosses a number of boundaries, like racially, gender, you know, ethnicity, gender, socioeconomic, like Jesus is crossing boundaries to get to this, to get to this encounter. Like, he's crossed so many boundaries to get to us. On a symbolic level, it's interesting, Jesus says to her, hey, go get your husband. She's like, I don't have husband.

And he's like, yeah, you've had five husbands. And the one you're with now is not your husband. And here's another one of those interesting. I think every number has meaning. in John's Gospel, that there's symbolism going on. And so on a symbolic level, it's interesting that the five husbands likely represent something from the Old Testament. So this is in Second King 17, where the history of Samaria, there were five Assyrian cities that conquered Samaria, and they brought their idolatry and injustice with them. And so interpreters have

seen the woman's five husbands as representing these five cities in the idolatry, whatnot, which in Old Testament language is like adultery on Yahweh, that adultery with these other lovers, so to speak, these five husbands, which means that the Samaritan woman, when we talk about yes, being an individual, but also being a representative for something more, that in John's gospel, she's the perfect representative for Samaria and its history as a whole, who had these five, the god, the five male gods of these surrounding nations. And that now, are currently, they don't have those anymore, are with the sixth Yahweh, but they're not actually entered in the new covenant yet.

And there's more on that in the book, but in short, you know, going, I think there's symbolism here where she's representing something greater. But now Christ, I would suggest, is the seventh husband. So it's because he is the, like he was the seventh vessel that brings the water, turn to wine now to cleanse us and bring the wedding feast. He's the seventh husband in which the church as bride, we encounter Christ. and in union with him, we find the fulfillment that the idolatry left us thirsty for. You know, like the idols could fulfill, but now Christ.

Are there other scholars who talk about these things? Are you drawing on other works in John? Like, are you the first one to make these connections? Yeah, no, no, no, totally, dude. No, there's lots of others. One, for on this one, one example, Brent Peter, if you look at, he's got a book, was the bridegroom motif and what I forget the exact title of offhand it's in it's in the end notes in the book he he's a biblical scholar that I remember first alerted me to some of these

themes let's do one more what do you what do you want what do I like okay one of my favorites is the the raising of the paralyzed man so this is John chapter oh yeah yeah dude John chapter five okay so context such a funny such a funny like oh totally man there's some There's so much humor and irony in this story. Yeah, there's so much going on, right? Okay, so here's some thoughts. Okay, so this guy has been laying there for 38 years, we're told. So, 38 years, he can't get up. He's paralyzed. He's on the mat. He can't get up. He wants to get to the pool, pool of Bethesda, where his healing would be found, right? And, well, let's take that note, 38 years. Can you think of anywhere else that the term 38, the number 38 years shows up in the Bible? pressing you're the press you're the you're the bible scholar well yeah you put me on a spot now i'm going to google it real quick maybe i um it wasn't connected with the 40 year wilderness wanderings was there ever a 38 in that period boom yes really yes that's it dudeeronomy 214 it tells us that 38 years passed when the people israel began their wilderness wanderings

after mount sinai and so the first two years they come to sinai they get the lot and then 38 years of wandering after that because of the rebellion in the wilderness right So 38 years is the time that Israel wandered in the wilderness after the golden calf incident, Sinai, at the rebellion at Sinai. They were unable to enter the promised land. They were unable to enter the, you know, through the waters of the Jordan into the promised land, into their inheritance. And so it's interesting. So early, a lot of early church interpreters saw this man paralyzed for 38 years as a picture of Israel in the wilderness under the curse of the law, unable to rise up and enter through the waters of the Jordan into the promised land and into their

inheritance. And it's just so the commentator, William Barclay, it talks about how in a lot of early church commentary, like the man is a picture of like Israel in the wilderness. He's, yes, he's an individual. He's real. He's, you know, Jesus really encounters him. But there's this picture symbolically to what he represents. The five porches, we're told there were five porches around the cool Bethesda that these were seen as signifying the five books of the law that both exposed the sin of the people but also provided some measure of shelter but it didn't have the power to heal them the people of their condition and yeah and then the 38 years waiting to enter the promised land or some early distributive side as 38 centuries that they

had been waiting for the Messiah to come right now Jesus shows up and now Now he's going to raise up, this man. He'll be able to rise up, enter through the waters into healing. Okay, so there's more on that. We go to a minute. But I think first off, this is one of those places where I imagine listeners going, all right, that sounds like those crazy early church figures. You know, like they're reading too much into it.

Like, dude, that's reading into things. That's allegorious, whatever. But I'd say not so fast. I think there's actually, it's worth to reflect about this, right? So first observation would be that, you know, John regularly uses characters like we just said a minute ago, as representatives for greater themes. So, like, Samaritan woman is the picture of the bride of Christ, like Barabbas, Nicodemus, like, you know, throughout the book, walked through the symbolic nature of how John depicts these characters.

Second would be that John is regularly using numbers symbolically. So there's famously, like in his intro, there's seven signs and seven I.M. claims at the gospel's intro. I think there's seven titles that are ascribed to Jesus that have symbolic value in John 1. You've got the 12 baskets of leftover bread, represents something of the six water jars, the six water jars in John 2, the five husbands in John 4 of the 153 fish. Like that's just everything in John is intentional. It's all got me, right? But third, here's maybe the biggest one for me is this new section of John is set against the backdrop of Israel's wilderness wandering. right so the structure of john you've got john one is his intro john two to four um i go into this

more in the book but there's a structure of john two to four that's like an inclusio um in terms of contained within and then this is the very beginning of the next section of john where we're told this happens at the sheep gate and john five and you follow john five through john 10 and at the end jesus says i am the gate for the sheep and that that section becomes the end of this book in. And the whole theme backdrop from the Old Testament from John 5 through 10 is Israel's wilderness wandering. So the upcoming chapters talk about God's echo, like God's provision of manna in the wilderness in John chapter 6, God's provision of water in the wilderness in John 7, God's guiding light in the wilderness in John 8 and 9, and God shepherding his people in the

wilderness in John 10. So John's got this wilderness motif going on. And I believe he opens it here with this story that's a representation of Israel stuck in the wilderness unable to rise up enter through the waters into their inheritance into the promised land. And so then when Jesus asks his famous question, do you want to get well? On the level, the answer seems obvious, right? Like, dude, well, of course. Like, why would this guy say no? But on another level, we start to realize, like, he's asking this to his interlocutors, right? Like the Jewish leadership, do you want to get well? You guys are stuck under the weight of the law that you've been unable to fulfill. You're stuck in exile in kind of a metaphorical wilderness under Rome and under everything else. You have not been

able to do it on your own steam, on your own strength. You're stuck under the weight of the law, and yet I've come to bring grace and truth that would rise you up to be able to enter into the inheritance, enter into the promises of God. Do you want to get well? And surprisingly, their answer is implicitly, no. You know, like what we're going to see throughout the section John's gospel is they don't want to get well they're rejecting they're refusing the healing that he's come to bring and so I think this chapter for me becomes like a picture of law versus grace you know like yeah and on a personal level to kind of go back to where in my own my own journey like man one of the big questions I found myself wrestling with during the hard season

a year to two years ago was the question of like man was I wrong or was I wronged you know like I would wake up at 3 a.m. every night for a year and just replaying scenes different things of my head and just going man was I wrong or was I wrong was this um I did something wrong and either it was kind of a just thing or God your punish me or something you know if something I did or was I wronged was this, you know, the impact of other people's actions against me, you know, and grappling through that. And the reality is, I think life is complex and there's probably a mixture of the different things, you know, but what I found was like, as I was going through John's gospel, this revelation of like, God going, dude, you're, the very framework, the very questions you're asking are under

the framework of law about grace. You know, like, like, was that, was I wrong? You know, like I broke the law and I'm getting justly punished? Or was I wrong? Did someone else break the law? And now whatever I need you and and going like I found myself in this paralyzed man stuck on the mat like I had a hard time there were two or three months I had a hard time getting out of bed you know it was hard to be present my wife and kids just like dude just feel like I feel like I couldn't rise up like I just felt stuck under the weight of the law was I wrong or was I wrong and just cycling through trying to understand makes sense of what happened and um and like this man I found myself in this man with Jesus coming and going, dude, do you want to get well?

Like, are you going to live under law or are you going to live under grace? Are you going to operate under your own strength or ability to perform good enough to do it or not? Because it's not going to work. Dude, you're going to be stuck, exposed by the law, like in this condition. Or are you going to live by grace? Are you going to live by my strength for you, my power, my entering onto your side to be with you and call you, raise you up in life with me? I can keep going, but yeah. This story then, I mean, all of them, I'm sure, played a significant role,

but this story seems to stand out a little bit. At least it speaks really directly to the situation you went through the last couple of years. Would that be, like, is there a special place in your heart for the man born blind? I mean, also we didn't mention, but you'd be blind in your right eye for, you're not still blind in a right eye, right? I am. Yeah, yeah, I can't see. You are? Side note, if anyone here ever.

Why did I know that? Do you ever see me from a distance, you know, and like, I don't see you or I don't wait? I get double vision when it's not up close because of the minus. Oh, wow. That's a whole story. But yeah, man. No, still am.

And yeah. But there's no longer the risk of now in terms of causation. I've got a good eye. You know, my right eye is two and well. So, yeah. Well, yeah, and to your point, this, yeah, this story does have a, personal place in my heart but i mean honestly all of them do you do like like walking through i felt like peter man jesus walking me back through memories the fish the charcoal fire like the calling

the regret the the woman caught in adultery man how do there's a whole thing there and that that really i found myself in her uh the temple torn down dude my whole world got torn down and there's all sorts of stuff i saw there that just began ministry to me in terms of christ what he's doing on his identification on the cross when your world blows up and everything gets torn down you know like there's just so many things throughout drown's gospel where each i i'd have to say i think each figure each key story each sign each one-on-one encounter i found myself in just different from different angles or aspects yeah and that's what i wanted to share through the book you know like this yeah we could wrap things up here but can you can you

you stick around for a little more for some extra endings. Yeah, definitely. I really, I really, yeah, I really want to dive a little deeper into the last, what happened a couple years ago, because you, you, you were talking about canceled. That's just a soft term to put on it. But I would love, if you don't mind sharing some more details about that. Oh, man. Like I mentioned, I think what the, the public fees was just the tip of the iceberg, man.

Like, yeah, it was, there was a mountain beneath those waters. If you would like to listen to our extra innings conversation, then head over to Patreon.com forward slash theology in Iraq to become a member of the Theology in Iraq community and get access to all the extra endings conversations and other premium content. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.